Rob - In emails to each other, setting up this interview, I told you I was, like, I was uncertain how to focus a chat about humor and storytelling. I told you in the email that I keep landing on this single question. “How do you know what you've written is funny?”  And you wrote back and you said, “How do I know it will be funny? I don't. How do you know a conversation with me about this will be useful or interesting? You don't. We're gambling men. We live life on the edge. Cowboy emoji.” Neena – (laughs) Why am I like this, Rob? (laughs) Rob – Oh my god. (laughs). What do you mean why am I like this?  Neena - I just mean that there's like a straightforward way to answer your question and um I just I never feel compelled to answer in that straightforward way there's just so many opportunities for play and I feel like I have to take all of them and even, even every now and then I like tire of myself and be like all right you got to rein it in that's like this is too much. Rob – Do you think you’re funny too much of the time?  Neena - That's a good question um I, I know I just said that you know maybe I do it too much but I don't I don't actually think so I think I’m perfect as I am. (laughs) Theme music.  From PRX and Transom. This is Sound School. I’m Rob Rosenthal and I’m talking to Neena Pathak today. About a couple of things. One, some of her beautiful writing in a touching story about the death of her dad in 2024. And, two, her sense of humor and why she thought it was a good idea to pepper a story about her grief with some pretty funny and snarky commentary.  Neena is an editor at “It’s Been a Minute,” a culture podcast from NPR. She says the story about her dad came about, in part, because she’s a collector. A collector of observations. Interactions that make her laugh or give her pause or make her curious.  Rob – How did you collect these moments for this particular story.  Neena - Sometimes they were just in phone notes or um you know sometimes I would text a friend like “Someone said this to me in yoga class today” or um “The whole class I was thinking about how mad I was about this thing” or um… And, then every so often I kind of cull from my own digital and physical detritus and try to notice what's coming up.  Rob – And then what did you have, a list?  Neena - Well, kind of, it's like. For any sociology majors out there, this is very, like, C. Wright Mills, like the sociological imagination and, like the craft of, of, like engaging the sociologic imagination. Like, you have to practice noticing and keeping track of what you notice so that you can actually connect your personal experiences with bigger questions… And all these questions and thoughts and funny observations stayed with me so much so that I knew I wanted to make something with all of it. That something became a piece called “Desperado.” She produced it for Signal Hill, an audio magazine featuring documentaries, essays, profiles, and the like.  The first part of “Desperado” is funny. Laugh out loud funny.  Neena - In the beginning of anything usually I'm generally not setting out to be funny but more I just realize that I need to acknowledge all the funny in order to make it honest. And, there's this Sheila Heady line from her book “How Should a Person Be?”… She says “you have to know where the funny is and if you know where the funny is you know everything” and I really like that because the funniest things are usually pointing to something true.  Clip – Neena -  Every morning, at 8.30am, I put on bike shorts and an oversized t-shirt, then drive 6-8 minutes, depending on traffic, to a hot, cavernous room, lit like a nightclub.  I love a ritual, but have never been into coffee or prayer. So I opt for a sweatier form of morning constitutional.  Quick aside because I just looked it up. In British English, morning constitutional refers to taking a walk, like doing something good for your body's constitution. And I know you're not supposed to define a word with the same word, but it works if you get it, and I think you get, right? Anyway, in America, morning constitutional means taking a dump. Sound – Chanting “USA, USA, USA!” Sound – Bell. Water. Music.  Neena -  In the corner is a wooden altar of sorts, with paulo santo burning, a stone buddha statue, and a chalkboard that reads, “Attention is the beginning of devotion.” Mary Oliver.  I don't know what religion this is, but I'm here, every morning, attentive, devoted.  Woman - Good morning. Do you need a mat or a towel?  Neena - Nope, I'm all set.  Okay. Feel free to get better. (fades under)  Neena (whispering) - Don't say it, don't say, don't say it. Woman – Namaste! Sound – Namaste slowed way down like a scream in a horror film. Neena - My Aunt Viji was a Sanskrit scholar.  Viji - That's me now.  Neena -  Hi, Viji Mommy.  Viji -  ???  Neena – Okay. So… (fades under)  Neena -  I asked her about the etymology of namaste.  Viji – (laughs) Namaste. Mmmmm… (fades under)  Neena -  She said, namaste means to bow or to bend, and te means to you. Neena - What about the light in me honors and respects the light///  Viji (cuts Neena off) – No! No. That kind of thing. I don’t really agree.  Neena - Yeah, it's just something they say here in yoga classes sometimes, like, the divine light in me honors and respects the divine light in you.  Viji - That is exactly divine and the light and all that. I'm sorry, but I get exasperated nowadays by people talking as if they know all these things and I don't agree.  Neena - Los Angeles has a million yoga studios and I've been trying all of their discounted first month offers, kind of like serial monogamy if you don't think too hard about that analogy.  Sound – Gong.  Woman – Close your eyes…. (fades down and out) Rob – How do you know what you’ve written is funny?  Neena – I don’t. We’re gambling men. (Laughs).  Rob – (Laughs) I know. This is my big question.  Neena – I think it's just a, a feeling. I do run drafts by other people. So they're my editors at Signal Hill. Jackson Roach and Leo Wong were my main editors and, they helped me get kind of to like the, the heart of what was funny about something. Sometimes I’d have a lot of stuff that they would just end up cutting because it was kind of getting in the way of what was funny  Rob - As these people are helping you, your editors are helping you, are you basically looking to see if they laugh, then it's funny. Is it that simple?   Neena - Maybe, but it's almost like the, the question is like, it's less “is it funny” because like the funny is the byproduct of, of the honesty. And so my main concern is, is that honest and, um, and if it is, then it tends to be funny. So I just feel like there's a little bit of a difference in the question. Um, but if I, if I concern myself with like, is it funny that I'm missing the focus on why it would be funny, which is that it's honest.  Rob - I wonder if part of the answer for you to that question is that's just who you are. You're built to be funny. That's how you're wired. And if you didn't tell this story with some humor in it, you'd be ignoring it. And it's a first person story. So you'd ignoring a big portion of who you and how you look at the world and perceive things. Neena - Yeah, totally. Exactly. You should, you should really, you should ask the questions, and you should also answer them. (laughs) Clip - Sound – Gong  Woman - Close your eyes. Take a moment to allow your body to fully be in this space.  Neena – (Deep breath.) My body is in this space. (Deep breath) But my mind isn't quite here. (Breath. Gong) Am I my body or my mind? If I'm not really here, then where am I? What am I?  I'm minimally employed with a lot of free time, though free time feels less free when it's all the time. So what do I do when I'm free to do anything? I go somewhere to be told what to do. But, like, not in a sexy way.  Woman -  Deep breath in through your nose. Deep breath out through your nose. This is your Ujjayi breath. This will bring heat to your body throughout the class. (fades under) Neena - I'm trying to clear my mind, but now I'm wondering if this yoga studio supports genocide or right-wing Hindu nationalism or white supremacists in disguise as wellness influencers. I'm surrounded by Lululemon. I'm told this pronunciation is wrong.  Woman - Yoga is about union, of individual and universal consciousness, of inner and outer worlds, of mind and body. In Patanjali's writings on yoga, he says you can't know life through your mind alone.  That’s the first chapter of “Desperado.” The hot yoga chapter, if you will. Neena gets back to the yoga, but not before the story takes a graceful turn in tone and focus, one that’s worth unpacking. Listen to what she does. I listened to this moment three times to try and understand how she pulled off this off.  Clip – Neena - Sometimes my mom texts me from my dad's cell phone. It always catches me off guard. Yesterday's text said, “What day do you come home?” I reminded her and asked her how she was feeling after the election. She said, “The worst thing that could happen to me already happened this year.”  Neena (to her dad) - I'm making a video of you chewing ice.  Dad – (Chomping ice in his mouth) Chomped ice feels so soothing, but it has to be chomped.  Neena - Like you have to chew on it? You have to chew on it.  Dad - No, I would crush it on my own. Then it goes on my inner throat very soothingly.  Neena - It can't be pre-crushed?  Dad - Yes. (crunch, crunch) Neena -  A friend who lost a parent the year before I did never wanted to talk about it. Another got really into high-stakes sports betting. And one started marathoning Top Chef and stopped leaving the house. Everyone noticed, even if they didn't say anything about it. But, yoga flies under the radar. It doesn't raise any red flags, even when I myself joke that I'm addicted to it. At most, friends say that it's healthy, aspirational, virtuous, even. But, anything can be a drug.  What strikes me about that section is… well, I guess I think about my own writing. How didactic it is. Chances are, if I was writing this story, I would have been direct. I would have said something about how my father was ill. That he was dying. And to cope, I’ve taken up hot yoga.  Neena’s approach is vastly different. She trusts the listener to discern what’s happening, to pick up Nina’s trail of breadcrumbs.  Neena - I knew that I didn't want the piece to be didactic. I know that that's sort of like what we're trained in, in making a lot of, you know, radio and podcasts and you want to explain everything. So that's really, really clear.  But I think for, for a lot of like the big existential questions and, you know big life things that we all deal with, avery straightforward explanation it doesn't really get at the truth of what's going on.  Like, I don't think it's exactly true like a cause effect like I am doing yoga because my dad was sick and then died, you know, like that, that feels kind of reductive. Um, and it's almost like you have to circle around the thing and back into the thing. And, be with the thing through observation, um, in order to, in order to tell that truth.  And so just like humor is a tool, and just like really explanatory writing can be a tool. I think a little, a little bit of confusion or a little bit of opacity in writing or a bit of hint and suggestion can actually help, help listeners sit with the thing and help them understand better what you were going through. And that feels more honest to me.  Rob – Are you saying that involving the listener so that they’re untangling a small knot you’ve created is more useful to them in this kind of story?  Neena - Yeah, for sure. Um, like it's, I think you need a little bit of surprise and, um, a little  bit of misdirection sometimes, um to, to get people to, to be with the complexity of what you're going through. I think films and novels do this all the time and. Maybe we're less practiced in it in our medium, just because a huge percentage of audio work is so didactic, but I think that there is room for work that feels a little bit more, um. Like felt versus cerebral.  I guess a little bit of my question is like, “Is that how you experience things too? Like, I think sometimes, especially when, when anyone's experiencing something hard, you don't necessarily have like the clearest narrative, like. What is happening? You just have this like mess of sensations and, um, feelings that you don't totally know what to do with, and you still have to be a person in the world. Maybe you still have to go to work or take care of your responsibilities or you know caregiver or whatever and as you do your life, you're kind of sitting with the, you were sitting with that mess inside of you. Let’s listen to the remainder of Neena’s story. Notice something else that’s powerful about that turn in the story. When she brings us back to the yoga studio, Neena’s framed it differently. Before, in the first chapter, Neena was the mocking critic. Now, we’ve come to understand there’s much more to the chip on her shoulder.  Clip – Woman -  Drop to your knees, chin, and chest. Inhale, chaturanga dandasana. Exhale, downward facing dog.  Neena -  In 16th century Europe, Christian scholars were encouraged to addict themselves to God. Addiction didn't really have a positive or negative connotation. To addict just meant to attach or to give yourself over to a practice.  For the time being, I guess I've given myself over to yoga.  Man -  This isn't about what your neighbor is doing. This is about you and your breath. Deep breath in, downward facing dog.  Neeana -  Showing up daily for my scheduled dissociation.  Woman - Right foot forward, crescent lunge.  Neena - Feeling a little dead inside, but alive enough to still feel extremely annoyed.  Woman - Warrior two, exhale.  Neena - Annoyed with the guy next to me for breathing loudly.  Woman - Trikonasana, triangle pose.  Neena - Annoyed that I'm homesick for a city I chose to leave.  Woman - Separate hop back, chaturanga.  Neena -  Annoyed that my healthcare plan is don't get sick.  Woman - Hands to your heart center, prayer twist.  Neena  Annoyed that my love language is whichever one my partner isn't giving me.  Man - Tree pose.  Neena - Annoyed that I brought up love languages. So embarrassing.  Woman – Down dog. Up dog.  Neena -  Annoyed that all I can really commit to are my little poses.  Man - Upward facing dog.  Woman - Downward facing dog.  Neena - Annoyed that he's still breathing so loud, my god.  Woman - Up dog, open up your heart. Flip your dog over into wild thing.  Neena – Jesus Christ.  Man - Deep breath in. Downward facing dog.  Neena - Annoyed that I'm being a petty bitch.  Woman - Yes! Chair pose. Feel that burn in your glutes.  Neena - Annoyed that I'm not even finding any pleasure in being a petty bitch.  Woman - Bud of your badrasana, humble warrior pose.  Neena - When my dad was declining, I started ending every day-to-day question with When my dad is dying. Like, what song should I listen to when my dad is dying? Or, what's the right candy to buy at the drugstore when my Dad is dying. The answer was a Canadian children's choir covering Desperado by the Eagles. And gummy worms.  Neena (with aunt) - What about just, like, as an experiment, how would you say the darkness in me honors the darkness in you?  Aunt – (laughing) It's so ridiculous. These are all wrong.  Woman - Deep breath in. Child's pose. Whenever you need a break, there's always child's pose.  Uthkarsh - Think about your physical body as a computer. Like an old desktop-style computer with a monitor, keyboard, mouse and stuff.  Neena - My friend Uthkarsh has been studying yoga for 15 years, almost as long as we've known each other.  Uthkarsh - The computer is useless unless you run some electrical energy through it, right? Otherwise, it's just a box. So, electricity that runs through the human hardware in yoga, we call that prana, which literally means life force.  Neena - So is the idea that you need to make sure your hardware is good enough so that the electricity can run through it properly?  Uthkarsh - Yes, kind of, yeah. Everyone's hardware is really good enough, you know. It's not about how fit or able you are physically. It's about practicing whatever works with your hardware. And then your prana, your life energy moves through that.  Neena - My dad's name was Jitendra. It's my middle name, too. It means “he who has conquered his senses.”  Child Choir singing - Dsperado. Why don't you come to your senses?  Neena - I'm tired of always talking about my dad dying, but he keeps being dead, so...  Choir - Oh, freedom, oh, that you see people talking, your prison is walking through this... (fades under)  Neena - I'm still trying to live up to my name.  Man - Savasana, corpse pose.  Choir – singing with breathing Woman - We are going to end class with an om.  Dad - Ommmmmm. The universe is the om. Sarvasva, everything is om.  Neena - Did it feel nice to say?  Dad - Yes.  Neena - Does it feel peaceful?  Dad  - Yes.  Neena -  Do you feel peaceful?  Dad – Yes. Sometimes I do om, and I go to sleep.  Choir music ends.  “Desperado.” By Neena Pathak. You can find her story and listen to it uninterrupted on the Signal Hill podcast along with work by Conor Gillies, Hannah Sassoon, Annie Rosenthal – no relation – as well as pieces by several other audio storytellers.   Theme music.  Neena told me as she wrote “Desperado” she was often “in the soup.” One writing practice that helped her find a way out of the soup was “co-writing.” It’s not quite what it sounds like. She didn’t co-author “Desperado” with another producer. So what is “co-writing?” Neena has a brief explanation at Transom dot org.  Over the years, I’ve had lots of techy questions. Sometimes they’re simple. What recorder should I buy? What mic? Other times, I’m on fire and I need serious help like “I’ve lost all my audio files on my recorder. How the hell can I get them back?”  Invariably, I turn to Jeff Towne for help. He’s Transom’s tools guy and let me just say, Jeff has a clear and thorough answer for every tech issue. Now you can turn to Jeff, too. Sign up for a one-on-one tech consultation with THE Jeff Towne at Transom dot org. I receive support for Sound School – sometimes from Jeff Towne – but mostly from Genevieve Sponsler, Jay Allison, Jennifer Jerrett, and WCAI in Woods Hole, Massachusetts, the radio center of the universe.  I’m Rob Rosenthal. Thanks for listening.  ##