Theme music This is Sound School from PRX and Transom. The podcast with the backstory to great audio storytelling. I’m Rob. It’s probably fitting that I learned Susan Stamberg died in October while I was visiting a contemporary art museum in Paris. My partner and I talked about the news of Susan’s death as we stood looking at a massive, 10 foot high wall of yellow bee’s wax. I wasn’t quite sure what to make of it and wished Susan was there to explain given her many, many years as an arts reporter. Susan was a master of many things over her many decades at NPR. Foremost, she was famously known as a “founding mother” of the network – one of several women who held prominent positions at the NPR in the early days. The 1970s. In fact, she was the first woman ever to host a national news program – first for both radio AND television. She co-hosted All Things Considered from 1972 to 1986. Fourteen years. An amazing run. Susan was also a master interviewer. The list of people she questioned on the air is stunning. From Pavarotti to Rosa Parks. What stood out to me about her interviews was how personal and in the moment she sounded. As though she hadn’t planned the interview – though I’m certain she did – but was just there to listen and follow her curiosity sparked by what the interviewee had to say. In her later years, after hosting All Things Considered and Weekend Edition Sunday, she became a “special correspondent” covering the arts for NPR. That’s when I was fortunate to be able to speak with her. Back in 2018. Susan - I have the feeling that most of my listeners couldn’t care less about going to a museum or really looking at paintings… And so it’s up to me to structure and create a story such that I will grab their ears and hold on to them for as much time as I’m given. And keep them listening. I’m revisiting my conversation with Susan in this archive edition of Sound School. Our chat started with the conceit that “radio is the most visual medium.” Or, as I put it to her: We don’t need no stinkin’ pictures. Susan – (laughs) I said that too. (laughs) DESPITE THIS CONCEIT, IT’S STILL INCREDIBLY CHALLENGING TO PRODUCE STORIES ABOUT THE VISUAL ARTS – PAINTINGS AND PHOTOGRAPHS AND SCULPTURES AND THE LIKE. SUSAN STAMBERG REPORTS ON VISUAL ART FOR NPR. SUSAN SAYS SHE’S DETERMINED TO HELP LISTENERS SEE THAT ART IN SPITE OF RADIO’S LACK OF VISUALS. Susan – I’m going to hang up that picture in front of this microphone and make you look at it and tell you enough about it so that at least maybe you’ll get a fleeting visual image of it. IF SUSAN EVER PRINTED OUT HER RESUME, SHE’D PROBABLY BREAK THE PRINTER. SHE WAS THE FIRST FEMALE HOST OF A NATIONAL NEWS PROGRAM IN THE US. THE FIRST! STARTING WITH “ALL THINGS CONSIDERED” AT NPR BACK IN THE EARLY 70S. SHE LATER HOSTED WEEKEND EDITION SUNDAY FOR MANY YEARS. SHE’S BEEN INDUCTED INTO THE BROADCASTING HALL OF FAME AND THE NATIONAL RADIO HALL OF FAME… I COULD GO ON. BUT, MOST RECENTLY, SHE’S A “SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT” AT NPR. Susan - I have the feeling that most of my listeners couldn’t care less about going to a museum or really looking at paintings… I want them to see them! And so it’s up to me to structure and create a story such that I will grab their ears and hold on to them for as much time as I’m given. And keep them listening. HOW? HOW DOES SUSAN DO THAT? GRAB OUR ATTENTION AND CREATE IMAGES? WHEN I LISTENED TO A SLEW OF HER STORIES RECENTLY, I NOTICED SHE’LL SOMETIMES POINT TO WHAT’S CURIOUS ABOUT AN ARTIST’S WORK AT THE START OF THE STORY. TAKE THIS DESCRIPTION OF JOHN BALDESARI’S CONCEPTUAL ART. Clip – … He has burned his own paintings, put colored dots over faces in photographs, covered floors at the Los Angeles County Museum with a carpet of blue sky and puffy white clouds. Lots of times a Baldesari makes you smile. Then go, hunh? OTHER TIMES, SUSAN WILL KICK OFF A STORY WITH HER SURPRISE. Susan – Um, well, I guess so. I’m not sure that it’s my business to do that. It’s not about me. OKAY, IT’S NOT ABOUT HER. BUT YOU’LL HEAR MY POINT IN THIS INTRO TO A PIECE ABOUT THE PAINTINGS OF JASPER JOHNS Abmi – Sound of caramel machine. SO, SHINING A LIGHT ON WHAT’S CURIOUS OR LEADING WITH SURPRISE, THOSE ARE TRADITIONAL CHOICES FOR GRABBING A LISTENER AT THE TOP OF AN ARTS STORY, ANY STORY REALLY. WHERE IT GETS TRICKY IS THE DESCRIPTIONS, THE HANGING OF THE PAINTING IN FRONT OF THE MIC, AS SUSAN SAYS. FOR EXAMPLE, SHE AND I BOTH WONDERED IF SHE NAILED THE DESCRIPTION OF JASPER JOHNS’ “FLAGS, 1965.” IT’S A FAIRLY COMPLICATED WORK. Susan – Maybe it was the wrong choice for that reason it just took too much. But, you see what the problems are in doing this work! SUSAN HAD A SLIGHTLY EASIER JOB OF IT, PERHAPS, IN A STORY WHERE SHE DESCRIBES A PHOTO BY NAN GOLDIN. IT’S FROM GOLDIN’S SERIES FROM THE 1980S CALLED “THE BALLAD OF SEXUAL DEPENDENCY.” Here, SUSAN EXPLAINS THE PHOTO WITH HELP FROM LANKA TATTERSOLL. SHE’S A CURATOR AT THE MUSEUM OF CONTEMPORARY ART, LOS ANGELES. Quote – Description of photo of a battered Nan Goldin. Rob – (:53) - It seems like you chose telling details. Details that help us fill in the image that you want us to see… and you leave out the extraneous things that don’t do much. That photo that you’re describing from Nan Goldin, you know, she’s sitting in front of a, I’m not sure what color green that is but an aqua-green curtain and wall. Her hair is very curly. She has a pearl necklace on. You don’t tell us anything about those things. Susan – I didn’t. No. Not at all. In addition to the eye and the bruise I told how her lips were very carefully painted a bright, bright red. Those were the details I gave. And it allowed the curator to explain, to see that as an example as her, Nan Goldin’s, defiance. “You know, okay, you can beat me up and treat me horribly but I have,” as the curator put it, “my own agency. I have control of myself and my image.” And that’s the one that’s gonna last. And that was the point. You wouldn’t have gotten that from her curly hair or whatever the color of the background was. This was the most compelling thing you saw about her and there was a reason for it. Rob – And you mete out that information. It’s not like you list everything that you think is a telling detail. Like in this particular example, you have us look at the bruises on her eyes, the bloodied left eye, that she’s looking at us directly. And then we hear you ask a question and then an answer from the curator. And then you tell us about the lips. It’s like you separate. Because there’s really only so much a listener can hold in their mind. Susan – That’s exactly right. I wouldn’t just do one paragraph in which I told you all those details in that photograph. It would be overwhelming. At some point the listener would think “Ah the heck with it.” And kind of stop listening because it’s too much attention you’re asking them to pay. So, if you can parcel it out in the course of giving the information you keep moving your focus back and forth, back and forth… so you’re accumulating the details rather than lumping them all into a clump. Rob – Do you find that telling stories about photographs is easier than sculptures or is harder than paintings. Like, are there certain types of stories that just lend themselves to being visual arts stories on the radio more than others. Susan – I don’t think so. I don’t break it up that way. Because looking is looking. What you see and the challenge of describing it so others will see it, that’s the same no matter what the medium is. IN ADDITION TO THE DIFFICULTY OF PORTRAYING ARTWORK ON THE RADIO, THERE’S THE ISSUE OF CHOOSING A WORK TO TALK ABOUT. FOR INSTANCE, IF THERE ARE DOZENS OF PHOTOS IN AN EXHIBIT, WHICH IMAGES DO YOU SELECT TO FEATURE IN THE STORY? Susan – I sort of respond by my gut’s reaction. That there’s things that will really capture my interest or my eye as I go through an exhibition and think “Oh gee, that’s…” or “Gee, how come…” or “Why...” or “What could the artist have been thinking about…” then that’s what focus on. And, I’ve learned over the years that for a piece of five minutes, six minutes, you really can’t do more than pick out about four different things. And talking about them a little bit. And of course, the main sources I have are curators and they want to talk about everything! So, I need to alert them at the beginning and sometimes will send a note in advance “Pick the four things that you want to talk about and that have really good stories behind them.” Because that’s important, too… I would much rather find the story in the picture and get that told… I get to who was the painter at that time. What’s the biography involved here. What was happening in the world when these things were made…why it exists. OFTEN, SUSAN’S STORIES INCLUDE INTERVIEWS WITH ARTISTS AND CURATORS AND THAT’S ABOUT IT. OR MAYBE, SHE MIGHT ADD IN THE THOUGHTS OF VISITORS AT A MUSEUM. BUT, FOR A STORY SHE REPORTED ABOUT TWO REMBRANDT SELF-PORTRAITS, SUSAN INGENIUOSLY BROKE FROM THAT MOLD. SHE BROUGHT A FILM AND TV CASTING DIRECTOR INTO THE MIX – MARGORY SIMPKIN. Susan – And I said Margie come and join me and the curator at the museum... But, do this for me. Do not do any research on these pictures. Do not look at them or go online ahead of time. Do not think about these. I want your gut reaction because that’s what she does in real life. That’s her job. She looks at an eight by ten glossy of some would-be star and decides yes or no. So, she came and she stood and she looked and she just took off! She was fabulous! And everything that she said the curator verified. Clip – Margie looking at Rembrandt. (fades down and under) A CLEVER IDEA RIGHT? CASTING A CASTING DIRECTOR FOR THE STORY. IT REALLY FRESHENED UP THE REPORTING. Clip – Margie looking at Rembrandt. (fades up and plays. Then under.) Susan died on October 16th. She was 87 years old. Susan continued to file stories well into her 80s. She only retired this past summer after 50 years of reporting, hosting, and hanging pictures in front of a microphone. . Susan – The reason I do it is that it’s impossible. It’s so hard. That’s what keeps me at it for all these years. Just to see if I can do it one more time. Rob – You just put a smile on my face. Susan – (Laughs) I can see it!! Theme music Susan waxed a bit more on the theme of “See it on the radio” over at Transom.org. That’s actually the name of her essay for Transom – “See it on the radio.” The Resonate Podcast Festival starts this week. I can’t believe I was able to snag tickets since they sellout so quickly. So, I’ll see you there. Other Transom folks will be there, too. Sophie Crane, Transom's Executive Director, will give a presentation on helpful resources for would-be audio storytellers. That's at the Community Podcast Day on Thursday November 6th. It's free. Managing Editor Jennifer Jerrett will also be at Resonate. So, please hunt us down and say hello. Sound School is a production of PRX and Transom. It’s produced in Woods Hole Massachusetts, the radio center of the universe. I’m Rob Rosenthal. Thanks a million for listening. ##