Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast.

I'm John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking with my friend Brad Wolf, editor of the recent collection of writings by the legendary activist Philip Berrigan.

This is a project of www .beatitudescenter .org where you can find many other podcasts and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working for a more just, more nonviolent world.

So let's begin with a little prayer.

I invite you wherever you are just to take a deep breath and to relax.

And recenter yourself and together let's all enter into the presence of the God of peace who loves each one of us infinitely, personally, and everyone everywhere.

And let's welcome the risen nonviolent Jesus here in our midst and take a moment to ask for whatever graces we need to follow him more faithfully and do God's will.

God of peace, thank you for all the blessings of life and love and peace that you give us.

Be with us now as we reflect together on your call to follow the nonviolent Jesus and work for a more nonviolent, more just world.

Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out to do your will.

and to do our part, like Philip Berrigan, to help end war and nuclear weapons, as well as poverty, racism, greed, injustice, and environmental destruction, that we too might be your holy peacemakers, your beatitude people, and welcome your reign of universal love, nonviolence, and peace on earth.

In Jesus' name, amen.

Well, it's a pleasure to welcome my friend Brad Wolf from Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

Brad is a former prosecutor, professor, community college dean, and the executive director of Peace Action Network of Lancaster.

He's the co -coordinator of the Merchants of Death War Crimes Tribunal and currently working as the chair of the U .S.

Organizing Committee for the People's Tribunal on the Korean Victims of the 1945 Atomic Bombings.

Brad recently edited the first ever collection of writings on peace and nonviolence by Philip Berrigan called A Ministry of Risk, which is published by Fordham University Press, which I hope everyone will get.

I just always encourage everyone to read and study the lives and writings of Daniel and Philip Berrigan.

They were my lifelong friends and teachers and mentors.

Brad Wolf, welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast.

Thank you, John.

It's good to be here.

I appreciate you having me on.

Great.

Well, we're going to jump right into it, and I've sent you some of these questions.

I want to kind of walk through Phil's life and ask you to reflect or comment on it.

Just before I begin all that, I met Brad about, I don't know, 10 years ago, but we got arrested together just before the pandemic.

with Jane Fonda and Reverend Barber at the Fire Drill Fridays protests in Washington, D .C., then the pandemic happened and we were talking on the phone.

And Brad, you said to me, when are you going to put together a book of the writings of Philip Berrigan?

To which I said, I just got too much going on.

Why don't you do it?

And wow, Brad did it.

So thank you.

And you're the only person I know of who's gone through all of Phil's papers at the Cornell Archives and the DePaul Archives.

I went through all of Dan's papers for my book, Daniel Berrigan, Essential Writings.

And so that's where you have a unique perspective.

Brad didn't know Phil.

I knew him for 20 years, but he brings a fresh appreciation that has been really helpful to me as I reflect on Phil.

He was such a large in the life person in my life.

So Phil was a Josephite priest working in New Orleans, advocating civil rights.

His Jesuit brother, Daniel, both began to speak out against war and nuclear weapons around the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

But then the Vietnam War started, and they just both went full -time working against that war.

Dan as a writer, poet, and teacher, and Phil as a parish priest, but secretly an organizer of demonstrations.

And by 1967, he found that he wasn't making any difference, writing letters, meeting with officials.

And so that October, he and three others really shocked the country.

They called themselves the Baltimore Four.

when they walked into a local draft board office and started pouring blood on the files of young guys being shipped off to Vietnam.

And it ushered in a whole new type of kind of militant, nonviolent resistance in the anti -war movement.

So, Brad, tell me about your journey with the writings and your take on all that led up to what happened at the Baltimore Four in 1967.

Because it was so shocking.

It was indeed.

And the journey has been an incredible one for me.

As you mentioned, I didn't know Phil personally, so I came to know him through his writings.

And that was very powerful for me to dig into the archives, to see his letters, his journals, and to get to know the man through what he wrote while in prison or while planning these resistance activities.

In 1967, as you mentioned, Phil would become frustrated with the fact that his speaking out, his letter writing, and his article writing, and even meeting with government officials was not doing anything to change the course of the Vietnam War.

And there were protests with large numbers of people.

He came to believe that something dramatic needed to be done to really stir debate around the American dinner table.

And nonviolence, as you know, has to be recreated for the present moment each time, you know, Mahatma Gandhi holding up the salt during the salt march and Martin Luther King with the bus boycott.

And so Phil and his colleagues began asking themselves, what's the symbol of the Vietnam War?

How can we distill that war to its essence with a symbol and register our resistance?

And they decided that it would be draft files.

which were something that Phil referred to as human hunting licenses, because they were compelling young American men to go to a foreign country and kill or be killed.

And he thought they were an offense, they were an injustice.

And so they became an excellent symbol for Phil and his colleagues.

And then the second question became, what do we do with that symbol?

What do we do with the draft file once we have it?

And Phil, being a Christian, a Catholic, a priest, the idea of pouring blood on them attracted him strongly.

It could represent the spilled blood of Christ, and it could represent the spilled blood of so many Americans and Vietnamese who were dying at that time.

And so that's what they did.

They distilled the issue to its essence.

They recreated nonviolence for the present moment.

And they went into that draft office and took out draft files in Baltimore, and they poured blood on them.

And as you say, it garnered enormous press attention, media attention around the world.

There was a lengthy trial.

He received a lengthy prison sentence.

For that act alone, he received a sentence of four years.

And that is what led him to continue his actions in places like Catonsville.

So let's talk about Catonsville.

And I'm just taking it all in, you know, because I heard these stories.

But they still continued to energize me.

Dan took a busload of 100 Cornell College students to the big mass mobilization at the Pentagon that October 1967 with no intention of doing anything.

And all the young people went and got arrested.

And Dan was the only one left as their chaplain.

He was the chaplain at Cornell.

So he got arrested with them.

Thousands of young people were corralled over near RFK Stadium, that's now the D .C.

Stadium, for two weeks held outside, and Dan was the first priest ever arrested.

He's in the car being driven back to the Catholic worker from the jail, and he hears on the radio, Reverend Philip Berrigan and three others arrested for pouring blood, and he called his mother.

The Berrigan mother, who was a really saintly person.

Brad, I hope you don't mind me sharing these stories.

Listening to you just pushes all my buttons.

And now, you know, thinking about my own family when I've been in and out of jail, doesn't normally go over well with the family.

And Mrs.

Berrigan, who was just a total saint, Dan's going, I'm just out of jail.

This never happened before.

The priest had never been arrested in the United States before.

And they're both on front page of the newspapers.

And I'm just out, but I think Phil is going in for many years.

And his mother paused and then said, now let me get this straight.

You're out and he's in?

And Dan said, yes.

She said, okay, that's good.

That's all I only comment.

She was totally fine.

So Dan goes to Vietnam with Howard Zinn in January.

And he's going to rescue three American pilots who have been released by the Viet Cong.

Only the U .S.

bombs the block they're on for the entire week.

I always thought deliberately targeting Dan.

And in that April, Dr.

King is assassinated.

And it was then in May while Phil was out on bond awaiting the trial that Phil drove up to Cornell and said, We're going back.

We're going to do it again.

And we got a bigger crew and we have an even better idea.

So tell us about the action and your take on it all that led to this mythic trial that October 1968, which Dan then later made into a play that's still being performed around the world.

It was an extraordinarily bold move by everybody involved.

Phil, as you said, was out on bond at the time from the Baltimore arrest.

He knew he was going to go to prison for a lengthy sentence at some point in the near future.

But he wanted to do something else to generate even more interest, more concern about the Vietnam War.

He wasn't satisfied with what had happened in Baltimore.

So they came up with this idea to go into the draft office again in Catonsville, Maryland, a different location.

And rather than blood, they were going to burn the files with homemade napalm.

And of course, napalm is what the United States military was using extensively.

It's jellied ammunition that is dropped from the air and burns flesh to the bone.

So they used homemade napalm to destroy these files.

So they went in.

They take out the files and Phil, of course, is dressed in his Roman collar, very much the conservative Catholic priest.

And they take out this files and Dan is with him this time.

And they've notified the media in advance.

And in the parking lot, they burn over 400 of these files as they recite the Lord's Prayer.

This gets enormous interest from all facets of the U .S.

government, including the FBI, including J.

Edgar Hoover, who then makes it his lifelong mission to go after Phil and Dan Berrigan.

And what Phil didn't know at the time was that there were no copies kept of these draft files.

So when they destroyed them.

Those individuals whose files they destroyed could no longer be called up until a new file was created.

So it was both a symbolic action but a literal one too in slowing down the draft process.

And again, these files, these human hunting licenses were something so repugnant to Phil.

He has this quote where he says, those draft files to us are death or more precisely the mechanism of death.

Our blood upon them is a tribute to life and a covenant with it.

Our way of saying no more war, war never again.

It's so hard to take in or to remember that, you know, there were no cell phones or faxes or computer.

Or anything.

So to have a little piece of paper with the name and address of the young kid who's going to be shipped off to Vietnam is the only record.

So as you said, that was the end of any connection with this potential soldier.

So none of those guys got drafted.

The actions literally saved the lives of 400 people.

people don't know was that that was just the first of 300 draft board raids.

And that, you know, after years of this, there were some people burning 10 and 20 ,000 files.

Tell us, and I don't remember much of what Phil wrote about it because now he's in and out of prison, but he was quietly driving around and organizing all these incredible...

Very serious civil disobedience actions.

If you got caught, you were doing five to ten years in prison.

Easy for destruction of government property.

But it was ending the war.

They couldn't manage the war because pretty much the whole northeast country, right, Brad, was losing its recruits.

It was indeed.

And as you said, so many others began to do these same actions because they realized the potency of them.

Destroying the files was stopping the draft, stopping the flow of soldiers to Vietnam.

It was having an enormous effect.

And from 1966 to 1973, there were hundreds and hundreds of these draft card office, draft file office raids.

and tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of files destroyed.

So this was a really effective way to take government property that Phil believed had no right to exist, no more right than the gas chambers of Auschwitz had a right to exist.

It had no right to exist and therefore could be destroyed.

And so creating this kind of new form of nonviolent resistance spread like wildfire across the country.

Others embraced it.

And that's one of the wonderful things about creative nonviolence is that when you come up with a particular method, others will follow and take up the banner.

And that happened here.

And Phil continued to spend his time while out on bond, organizing other draft file office raids, encouraging others to take the same kind of risk that he and his colleagues were taking.

And that's why the title of Ministry of Risk, I felt, was so important when I first found that quote, because he felt that's what everybody should do.

Not just a priest, not just a pastor, but everybody should take on that ministry of risk.

Yeah, read us that quote and tell us why you think everyone should do that.

I never heard such a phrase before.

It's a really wonderful quote.

And, you know, I was going through the files the first day of Cornell.

And on the very first day, I pulled this one typewritten lecture out of Sills.

And I saw it was titled A Ministry of Risk and Liberation.

And I knew right away that that was going to be the title, A Ministry of Risk.

And the quote is this.

A ministry of risk goes unerringly to the side of the victims, to those threatened or destroyed by greed, prejudice and war.

From the side of those victims, it teaches two simple, indisputable lessons.

Number one, that we all belong in the ditch or in the breach with the victims.

And number two, that until we go to the ditch or into the breach, victimizing will not cease.

I was blown away by that statement.

I thought it was incredibly powerful and I thought it was...

a good representation of what Phil's life of witness and sacrifice was.

He said that the minister and the church have to concentrate on awakening God in the people where God joins them in liberation.

And liberation was a word that Phil used a great deal because he felt liberated by doing these kind of actions.

You're reminding me of...

When I first met Phil in 1982, I'm a dopey 21 -year -old Jesuit novice, and I went on the retreat in the basement of a church in Washington, D .C.

with Phil and Liz.

There were about 100 of us.

And at the end, we were going to go to have a demonstration at the Pentagon, as you do.

That was what you did on retreat for the Feast of the Holy Innocents.

And he was just so—he was this towering figure.

He was tough and just— kind of yelling, we all got to do what we can to get rid of nuclear weapons and end war.

Okay, yeah, that's good.

Yeah, I'm with you, Phil.

And then we drive over to the Pentagon.

And I don't know what they're going to do.

And Brad, they took out like gallons of blood that they had, you know, nurses had taken the week before.

And in those days, you could walk right into the Pentagon.

You can't now.

But there was a massive mall in the Pentagon.

I mean, the Pentagon is hundreds of thousands of people.

And we go right into the mall.

And there's a hundred of us in a circle.

And Phil takes out gallons.

And they just pour blood everywhere.

Like 50 yards of it.

I'd never seen blood before.

And it freaked me out.

And then others started doing it.

And then they were all hauled off and arrested.

I was scared to death.

And Phil had said to me, you know, if you want to follow Jesus, John, you have to come and get arrested with us.

I did a couple months later.

But, Brad, you're the first person who's upheld that side of the Barragans.

Risk.

Because unlike anybody I'd ever met before, they were saying, All you people are completely wrong about Christianity.

It has nothing to do with going to church, sitting back, being nice and pious.

Christianity is we're going to the Pentagon and we're going to confront it until they drag us away.

Because that's what Jesus did and that's what happened to him and we're his followers and that's that.

And I was scared being with Phil even until the week he died because there was nobody like him.

I'm sorry I'm talking so much, Brad, but it's so much fun to bring back all these memories.

Brad, I want you to, I could go on and on, but reflect a little bit about the 1970s.

And then I want to ask you about the Plowshares.

So in the 1970s, Phil is in prison for two and three years.

And then there's the Harrisburg trial.

And he and Dan are on the cover of Time magazine.

And they're just all over the place and just denouncing the war left and right.

As you said, Hooger.

J.

Edward Hoover is just obsessed with them.

And they're released from prison.

And Phil marries Liz.

They move to Baltimore and create Jonah House, which is where I first met them.

And it was a community of full -time nonviolent resistance.

Now, they used to have a newsletter, which I got.

And they were writing all the time.

I don't know how much of it you read.

But what was so original there from the 1970s up till...

Phil died, was you had a community that was basically engaged in nonviolent civil disobedience as permanent new way of life in the United States, permanent resistance to the culture of war.

So they were always taking turns getting arrested.

And I think that's what's needed now.

I wonder your thoughts about that whole era of the 70s at Jonah House.

I think that's one of the most important eras, parts of Phil's life.

that we need to look at that time from 1973 until his death in 2002 because that demonstrates to us what resistance for the long haul looks like and it's easy to get very motivated very energized for a short time about a particular issue but how do you maintain that kind of energy for four decades and i think his time at jonah house and his writings during that period demonstrate that And it's because he lived by certain principles.

As you say, Phil lived in community, and that was important to him.

He would emphasize that again and again, that if you're going to make it for the long haul, you need to live with others.

And you need to live in this larger human family.

this global human family but at jonah house it was a community of colleagues and family and their children and they shared duties and they shared food and then they would go to prison and then they would come home and raise children and paint houses for a few dollars to get enough money to meet the basic needs and then plan resistance write articles and go back to prison this is the way it was done at jonah house for a long period of time And it's because Phil believed that Christianity and revolution were synonymous.

And he had this quote where he said, you have to be faithful enough to suffer and daring enough to serve.

And to do that over the long haul is no easy task.

But I think when you're embedded with others, when you're working with others, they can pick you up when you're down.

They can help sustain you.

And I think that is what.

gave him the ability to do this for a long period of time certainly his forceful magnetic personality was a huge help and though i never met him as you saying you know he comes across as a truly powerful charismatic individual and so all these things are really important to look at and see how he and liz and others have you know you yourself have sustained this work over the long haul Well, Phil was adamant about that with me as a kid.

Like, you're going to be doing this forever, John, as long as you're alive.

You can't pick and choose your issue.

And I watched how they never let up.

And the risks continued.

And every time they crossed a line, it meant more time in prison because they were repeated offenders, recidivists.

Phil was like a really tough old ex -con.

You know, I spent a year in prison with him, and, you know, he was happy as Larry is, a friend used to say, because he's just, oh, I'm back in my old element here now, you know.

And he was not fazed by anything.

I remember his stories about sharing the cell with Jimmy Hoffa in the late 60s, and Hoffa said to him, don't you worry about anything, Father Phil, I got your back.

And Phil was like, I don't want you to have my back.

Because the word was spread throughout the Lewisburg prison that anybody touches Father Phil, he'll have to deal with me.

Anyway, the stories are all amazing.

But I guess what I'm saying is when I was with him, I was always scared.

Because you'd hear, like, how are you doing, Phil?

Oh, we just got raided by the FBI last night.

I'd be like, what?

What do you mean, raided?

Well, it's just like the ICE raids now.

30 agents would storm into Jonah House.

They were always trying to get them on RICO charges and conspiracy to put Phil away for life.

You see, because they were the ringleaders of all resistance in the country.

So what's, again, so shocking is they keep searching for new ideas.

And that led to the Plowshares Action of 1980.

And then I think he did four actions, including mine, and got all those many years in prison.

Talk about that and any writings you want to share about what happened there in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania.

Sure.

And just to speak to a moment about prison and Phil's prison witness, he has prison journals that were fascinating to read.

He wrote one of them, All of Us Are Prisoners.

And I think he believed that until we can liberate ourselves.

He said, a prolonged fast in solitary confinement is a profoundly liberating experience because inevitably this question arises.

What more can they do to you?

And the answer is nothing.

So I think he felt liberated in prison.

It's not as if he wanted to be there, but he did feel it was part of his Christian duty to be there.

Because another time when he was in prison, I saw that he wrote, obeying God's word can get you killed.

And that's not something you typically hear on Sunday mornings in the pews, right?

I mean, that's a pretty powerful statement.

But Phil lived it and believed it and went to prison for it.

And as you say, by 1980, we get into this idea of the plowshares movement.

You know, the Vietnam War is receding into history and the American public's becoming.

you know, bored and preoccupied with other things, but nuclear weapons are still proliferating and Phil's very concerned with them.

And so he and others decide to visit this Lockheed Martin nuclear facility in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania.

And they're going to go in and do what they later referred to as a plowshares action, which was to go in.

and pour blood on the blueprints of nuclear weapons and to take hammers and to symbolically hammer on the nose cones and the airplanes of nuclear weapons.

So once again, they're arrested for this.

It's a great symbol.

It's so creative, right?

Nuclear weapons, the hammering on the nose cones, the beating the swords into plowshares, the pouring of the blood on the blueprints.

All this is very effective.

in a political theater context and also to rouse the public to awareness of what's going on right in their own backyard you know i i live 45 minutes from king of prussia and there were many people at the time who didn't know that parts to nuclear weapons were being produced there so when phil does this again with dan and they get this lengthy prison sentence and a long calamitous trial everybody wakes up and starts doing other plowshares actions.

The same thing that happened with the draft files, other people start doing with plowshares actions.

And they continue to this day across the world.

There have been hundreds of plowshares actions in countries all over the world.

You, of course, participated in them.

Many of the people I've met since researching this book participated in them.

And that's what gives life to the movement.

That's a legacy.

Part of the legacy of Phil and Dan Berrigan is that they left these kinds of legacies behind of Plowshares movements and creative nonviolence.

So again, you know, Phil goes to prison for the King of Prussia action.

In total, he spends 11 years of his life in prison.

That's a long time.

That's not just a day or two or a weekend.

11 years of his life was spent in prison.

That is truly understanding that obeying God's word might get you killed.

And if I could just speak to a second to this question that Phil asked himself so repeatedly throughout his writings in his life.

And the question is, what does Christ ask of me?

And he seemed to be haunted by that question.

And I think he repeatedly asked himself that question.

He later wrote, the sinless one continues to haunt me.

And so I think by asking that question again and again of himself, he was able to do these kinds of actions.

And even into his later years, continue to go to prison.

I mean, he was released from prison.

What was it?

Just a few months before he passed away.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just such a powerful witness he gave.

And I was there with him literally in the cell.

And I would still be in awe because he was just.

like the Mount Rushmore of nonviolent resistance.

You know, you talk about obeying God's Word.

It's, you know, we have such a crazy culture and crazy Christian nationalism and fundamentalism, and everybody's obsessed with the Bible.

Actually, Phil and Dan read the Bible and knew it better than anybody else I've ever met.

And when I've talked with their biographers, I've tried to say, look, you're not quite getting it.

These people are biblical people.

When I was with them, it was like being with St.

Paul and St.

Peter.

Nobody ever wrote about that.

But all they did was wrestle with sentences from the Gospels.

So that when you say, you know, he's coming upon...

Isaiah chapter 2, they shall beat swords into plowshares and study war no more.

Phil's going, okay, let's do it.

You know, unlike anybody else in 2 ,000, 3 ,000 years, they were the first people to actually say that's what we're going to do.

What's also amazing, Brad, you know, in terms of your title, Risk, they didn't know what was going to happen.

You know, no one did anything like this.

So they drive the car that morning.

And they drive right into the GE plant and the doors are open and they park the car.

It's eight o 'clock.

The workers are going in.

There's no security.

So they just line up like they're workers and they march in and they don't know what they're doing.

And they go inside and they're down a long hallway and they turn right, apparently.

And they open up a room and there are all these nuclear nose cones lying around and literally blueprints.

And they thought.

So the judge is yelling at them, how did you get in?

Who led you?

And Dan's going, oh, the Holy Spirit.

Is there a problem here, Your Honor?

So risk the Word of God and just following Jesus, as you say.

Brad, because our time is coming to an end, here we are.

All these years later after Phil and the era of Trump, we're closer to nuclear war than ever.

We're in the full unleashing of catastrophic climate change.

But all these other very horrific wars, the killings in Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan, more money spent now on nuclear weapons than ever before in history.

And Obama and Trump and Biden have...

pledged with the complete support of the U .S.

Congress over a trillion dollars to upgrade the nuclear industry.

This is way beyond Phil's imagination.

He couldn't even imagine that that was possible.

And all that's normal now.

You don't even hear anybody talking about it.

And yet you spent this time in the pandemic going through the papers of this great Christian who I hope will live on like Frederick Douglass and William Lloyd Garrison.

the great abolitionists, you know, that will look back and realize what a gift he was and a prophet.

What have you taken from the life and writings of Phil for your own journey as a Christian and a peacemaker?

And what would you recommend for all of us, like some basic lessons that you're gleaning from the life and witness of Philip Berrigan?

Well, there was no better way to spend the pandemic than immersing myself in the life of Philip Berrigan.

I can say that clearly and authoritatively.

It was a wonderful journey, and I'm so glad that I took it and that I came to know Phil through his writings and through his witness.

And the advice I would give, what I learned for myself, and as I was editing this book and compiling the writings and editing them, I had to dictate Phil's writings into my laptop to get them into a document that I could then manipulate.

And so I had hundreds of pages of documents that I had photographed, which I read aloud into my laptop.

And by reading Phil's words aloud gave me a kind of ownership in them that made me question myself and ask myself, am I up to that task?

Could I do that?

Do I believe that to that degree?

And I think if people read these words out loud.

they might have the same kind of effect and it could energize them.

But I can emphasize it's worth the journey.

It's worth the journey, the one of resistance of going into the breach with the victims, because at the end, as Phil said, there is the chance of liberation for yourself, for your soul, and certainly for the victims in the breach.

So take that chance, take that risk, go into the breach, follow the journey.

Thank you, Brad.

I loved how you began in the book and you brought it up with that challenge that he gave at some retreat in the late 50s that you found.

And I concluded it in my afterward in your book, brought it back.

And maybe we could just end on that question for all of us.

Phil was saying to these young people, what does Christ ask of you?

What does he ask of us today?

We could rephrase that, you know, here in this terrible moment we're all facing.

What does the nonviolent Jesus call us to do?

What have we, you know, St.

Ignatius put it this way, or I'll paraphrase.

What have we done for the nonviolent Jesus?

What are we doing for the nonviolent Jesus?

And what are we going to do with the time left we have on earth?

to follow the nonviolent Jesus and welcomes God's reign of peace.

You've helped us all, I think, by reclaiming Phil's legacy.

So thank you so much for putting that book together.

And for all those who are listening, I really urge you to get the book.

It's called The Ministry of Risk, Writings on Peace and Nonviolence, Philip Berrigan, edited by Brad Wolf.

You could get it through Fordham University Press or any of your local bookstore and all the other writings of Dan Berrigan and the Berrigans buying about them.

So, Brad, thank you so much for being with me today.

And thank you, friends, for listening.

to this episode of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast.

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