[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome everybody to another episode of Positively Trek.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm one of your hosts, Dan Gunther, and with me, of course, a little more remotely than usual this time is my wonderful co-host, Barry DeFord, Barry, how's it going?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, pretty, pretty good.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am in a cabin in the woods right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: way off in the reaches of Alberta.

[SPEAKER_01]: Looking at a very snowy landscape, actually, we've got pretty hard on this neck of the woods, so that's always fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we haven't.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've seen pictures down Highway 40 from where I live, where it's getting pretty snowy, but we haven't gotten it here yet other than the few air-it flakes coming down that are, you know, portents of things to come, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, it seems like a middle of the country slash continent is getting a heat wave and we're getting the cold side of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I would say we've received what I would consider a skiff of snow.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that's all too bad.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, nothing that's going to stick around.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is, of course, we are recording this on Thanksgiving Day here in Canada, which for our American listeners, it's about a month ahead of where you guys celebrate Thanksgiving.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, a little early for, you know, but it's not an October is not unheard of for sure around here, but usually doesn't stick around quite yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, snowing august sometimes happens.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is true.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is true.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or they're now burdened.

[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, yes, actually the idea to actually experience snow in July once, but I was on the mountains.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was on the Brasu loop.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we were way up and it had been unseasonably cold and rainy and yet we got it mean it wasn't like snow snow but there is definitely snow kind of floating around a couple flakes and stuff and thinking it was like the middle of July is like what that happens?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we definitely experienced some environmental swings in this part of the world, but nothing like what Con and his folks are experiencing on SETI Alpha 5 in the episodes we're going to be talking about today.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, we are talking about Star Trek Con episodes 5 and 6.

[SPEAKER_02]: So episode 5 is Imaginations Limits, which we'll start off with.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where it happens.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is where city alpha six explodes.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't expecting that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I guess it makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're halfway through the series basically with this episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of we get the before and the after.

[SPEAKER_02]: I guess starting with this episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they don't really get much of a chance to like.

[SPEAKER_01]: basket anything good hey it's it's there they're dealing with the environmental issues of city alpha five fighting evil you know brain slugs and all that sort of stuff and then I don't know there's really not a lot of like okay cool we're gonna have like a month of just solid nice stuff don't we're going straight into now we're in trouble thank goodness Paula was able to spot that though okay [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so Palo is an interesting character and we're gonna talk about him for sure Yeah, because I think there's some interesting Alligories that we can explore with his character and what's going on there.

[SPEAKER_02]: I guess we should start at the beginning of this episode Which sees the return of George decay is Captain Sulu.

[SPEAKER_02]: We haven't had him since the first episode [SPEAKER_02]: So it's very welcome to have another little bit of solu here.

[SPEAKER_02]: We know from previous episode that Leer has been wanting access to the sensor logs of the city alpha system that the enterprise did when it first dropped off Conan is people there.

[SPEAKER_02]: and Sulu has those for her, but kind of wants to assess her state of mind and how she's like her biases and that kind of thing before he just hands them over, which gives us this really interesting conversation between the two of them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I like the kind of questioning of where Lyra is coming from because I think we haven't heard everything yet as to why she's so interested in maybe not a redemption of Khan but a great understanding of Khan.

[SPEAKER_02]: She gives some good reasons here, but I still think there's more to it than that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think what we're kind of getting here is that question gets opened and I think it receives it's kind of next beat at the end of episode 6 and we can talk about that because I think that revelation kind of opens the door as to perhaps where she's coming from.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I would want to kind of kick this off a little bit by reading into Suele a little bit who in a lot of [SPEAKER_01]: you know, he's so set in his ways, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean Kirk's a friend, you know, someone who he respects greatly all this sort of stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's why he would be so predetermined to come to his defense, which I also note the irony where I know George T.

K.

has been somewhat critical of Bill Schattner in the past.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I do find it, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I appreciate where he's coming from and I understand, and I think in a lot of cases, it's sort of where we're at right now, in certain cases on how we look at history, how we look at historical figures, I mean for people in the United States, this is technically Columbus Day, and the more you learn about Christopher Columbus, the more you realize he was a complete monster, like a complete monster, who did awful and terrible genocidal things.

[SPEAKER_02]: and even in the standards of the time, like that's not even just a post, you know, fact, you know, thing at the time he was considered a monster.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Bartolm Daeless Casas was like, this guy's a complete and total psychopath, and we need to stop him, you know, who was the monk who kind of tailed Columbus through this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, that's where a game, people who defend Columbus for Columbus's sake and don't know the history that really it came around from Italian people not wanting to be persecuted in the United States, and they needed some kind of historical figure to latch on to.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the game, [SPEAKER_01]: Now that that historical figure that they did latch onto to become more, I guess you could say, assimilated or absorbed into the body politic of the United States, they need to shed that now.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there are some who lack the imagination to be able to fully comprehend that this quote unquote hero is actually not a hero at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so we can kind of reverse this maybe with [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the story we're being told in real time as we go back into the quote unquote history of it, we can see Con as a much more complicated character.

[SPEAKER_01]: But again, we see where his imagination has its limits too, don't we?

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So going back to this scene, though, that I do want to talk about, [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I do love that these sensor readings that Sulu does eventually give her She's kind of questioning like I don't understand how you know They must have missed something who took these sensor readings.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, oh, that was the science officer Commander Spock and she's like, oh, dang.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, oh, the Spock.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, hmm somebody missed something [SPEAKER_01]: In this case, they should call them censor, but censor's readings, sorry, yes, censor's.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like how she comes in and she is sort of challenging, like she, I feel like she's on Mount Olympus kind of challenging the gods a little bit, you know, the liver per se is kind of complex.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and this is something we see in Star Trek a lot, but usually from the perspective of, you know, Captain Kirkker, Captain Picard who has either the admiral or the ambassador or the civilian scientist, come aboard, who's all, you know, math.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I like that we're getting a little bit more from the scientists perspective in this one.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's got a tough road ahead as a character, you know, coming up against our heroes, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I do wonder, I still suspect there's something more sinister about City Alpha 6 itself than we've been led to believe, because we've had several people now say, like, oh yeah, it looks like the course unstable, but it would be something that would happen, you know, millennia or millions of years [SPEAKER_02]: We've had both, you know, Spock apparently probably say this when he took the scans initially.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we also had Apollo say it almost exactly the same thing in like the first or second episode when they first detected that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I would tend to back up Spock sensor readings, like even Apollo took readings and said, yeah, this looks like it's going to be a problem, but like in a few million years, like on geological timescale, it's not anything.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's going to blow up in, you know, four episodes from now, whoops?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, let me just calculation.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, so yeah, I'm wondering.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking there's something more there for sure But we do get an interesting discussion about I like Lears quote here where she says in my experience monsters are made not born.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to better understand the recipe.

[SPEAKER_02]: So [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I get that as an impetus for doing this research, but I still feel like there's something more there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I mean, I might push back a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it is true that monsters are more made than born, but I also think that those ingredients do come baked in with a lot of our historical monsters of the past.

[SPEAKER_01]: you can sort of see how they get to their point.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the main ingredient, the main thing that that can really make the monster is the opportunity in a lot of cases.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think, you know, a lot of our monsters in the 20th century would have been, you know, just [SPEAKER_01]: kind of jerks in their little, in their little life systems rather than learn horrible monsters overall.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just they were given the opportunity to be more monstrous in that respect.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, when one might say enabled as well, by the, there you go.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not just even given the opportunity, but like encouraged and enabled by the people around them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is where a lot of the kind of rip from the headlines, moralizing, I guess, to some degree that Star Trek is good at doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think this is where the discussion is kind of leasing itself into this little chat that Sue Lear have.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's let's get to City Alpha 5 and the main thrust of the story where as we mentioned, basically starts with City Alpha 6 blowing up and Paula witnessing this on in his telescope and and showing con and shout out to the voice acting and the sound design [SPEAKER_02]: When Con looks through the telescope and you just hear, no, no, like the sheer unbelievableity of what he is seeing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like that is so conveyed in, like I said, the sound design, but also the acting of Navin Andrews and the other cast members.

[SPEAKER_02]: Very well done.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I was, I was standing there with them watching this happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm actually, I'm actually kind of taken by the, the, the science of this moment too in the consideration that they put in because the loss of a planet like that would actually affect the orbit as well, which I know we already knew that, but you know, it's explained out in a very easy to understand way with that same level of unintended gravitas into kind of [SPEAKER_01]: this crisis now that they see themselves, and also it's not like immediately this debris is going to hit the planet, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Paolo's giving us calculations and stuff like that as to what what's going to happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: But also, I forget now if it was the ship or this has been a week since I've listened to this episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: I forget it was the ship or if it was bits of of debris coming down but that popping and booming noises that were being made.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really reminds me of the [SPEAKER_01]: and ten or some years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: Very similar kind of popping and booming noises.

[SPEAKER_01]: That again, just lead credence to the realism that these sound engineers are putting in.

[SPEAKER_01]: So again, kudos to the sound engineers.

[SPEAKER_01]: You guys need an award or something.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that bit is a ship crashing down.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's no debris yet.

[SPEAKER_02]: They make a point of saying it would be months before debris kind of starts raining down on them.

[SPEAKER_02]: The two biggest pieces of debris that are cited polo says are about the size of Iran.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and they will strike city alpha five.

[SPEAKER_02]: He says and con asks where and polo says it does not matter.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter, goodness, I think you think like the Chicksalib Crater that hit 65 million years ago was about the size of New York City and it obliterated pretty much virtually all life on earth, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Something the size of Iran would literally turn the surface of City off of five molten, like, good heavens, terrifying, absolutely terrifying.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, this object does crash down to the ground though, and it turns out to be a vessel.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a Starship of some sort that is crashed on the planet.

[SPEAKER_02]: There, of course, gonna go scout out the crash site to see if there are any survivors and what to do about them if there are survivors, which leads to an interesting debate between, basically, con and Ivan and everyone else [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, reason, I would say, you know, kind of laying out a lot of ideas like if they're work capable, they may be able to help them survive this apocalypse, uh, giving all these reasons why they should kind of have an open mind.

[SPEAKER_02]: But this is where we see where maybe I'm struggling to find the exact words, but maybe the genetic programming that these folks have in them is kind of kicking in the other, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: They don't know anything about them.

[SPEAKER_02]: They have no idea of any intention or what's so ever But immediately it goes to we must assert our dominance over this place and Illuminate any outsiders or competition or anything like that and it was interesting that like that to me feels like Oh, that's the genetic programming that was put into them that gives them that response, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have to say like, maybe a bit of a jarring shift for me, seeing how, you know, we've been getting this one kind of look at at cons, specifically, and then seeing him immediately be like, oh, there's others here, okay, we need to exterminate them immediately, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I think your explanation is kind of a suede, some of my frustration I've had with this episode was I did find that his sudden shift, [SPEAKER_01]: Especially if he's a tactician, if he thinks tactically all these sorts of things, for him to immediately resort to sudden and extreme violence against a group who he's just he has no context for does kind of [SPEAKER_01]: bring a little like really like that did sort of suspend my disbelief or it sorry it didn't suspend my disbelief it reduced my suspension of disbelief in in a way where I was thinking maybe something a little more like let's get to know these guys and then we can infiltrate and destroy them rather than get your your automatic senior pitchforks and we're just going to go you know shank them up real quick kind of thing it was a little bit jarring for me that that shift but you know I appreciate the the tension [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that said like what we've seen of Khan in this series has just been him and his people, right, and the people that he's protecting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Every time even prior to this that we've seen Khan encounter a group that is, you know, even the slightest bit opposed to his plans or just an outsider, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like in space seed, he immediately went to taking over the enterprise even though [SPEAKER_02]: All the people on board there was never a mention of like we're going to put you in chains for what you've done or anything like that Like they hosted him to dinner and talked about their philosophies and then he tried to take over the ship and kill captain Kirk Yeah, you know, it's not that far outside the his Modus operandi I guess [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, and I think this is a game, you know, lending, lending that I think you're saying like this is basically what he was programmed to do and he is sort of following his program and I mean, you know, if, if [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's often the saying of like, you know, if you give a person a hammer, they're going to solve their problems with that hammer, you know, everything looks like a nail.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in that respect, you know, that does sort of make sense, but boy, they're they're they're they're insistence on sudden and brutal violence is definitely, but you know, you and I have felt very sympathetic to con and I think that sympathy definitely gets knocked down a couple of pegs by their.

[SPEAKER_01]: But they're immediate response.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I feel like this episode was kind of almost the writers like the last few episodes have them been them filling up a Gulp tall glass of water Just kind of having it in the background, and that's not noticing it and then this episode is splash right in your face.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hey remember these guys are Oh [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think of like, you know, and also that there's a hubris to them too where they're like, oh, there's like a couple hundred a couple of dead, you know, bunch of dead, but like most of them are still alive and like, okay, well, there's 41 of us.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's let's go kill them all.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, they're genetically engineered Superman, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: They're, yeah, yeah, full full.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, ours is the superior, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of the rallying cry that Khan gives and something that it's echoes of when Yola Keem dies in Rath of Khan, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, before he dies, he reaches towards Connance's yours is [SPEAKER_02]: the superior and then he dies.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yes, this is this is the rallying cry they will they will fall on their swords by at some point as well, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So Apollo, I want to talk a little bit at this point because this is where he's kind of a little bit incredulous that con and the rest of his followers are all going to go kill these aliens, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: He's kind of doing the science and he's saying like there's a cataclysm coming that should be our priority We should not be killing these aliens Maybe they can help us.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am like immediately thinking of you know gestures broadly at the world around us, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like climate crisis is the biggest existential threat humanity has [SPEAKER_02]: faced in, you know, any kind of modern times that you can think of, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe, I mean, there's arguments to be made for other things, but this is one that's going to affect the entire planet and, and, and, and, and, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: we can't stop worrying about our petty little whatever's we can't come together and face this, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel that frustration that I feel looking at that coming through in Paulo here who's seeing everybody arming for war and getting their swords and maces ready and he's like [SPEAKER_01]: guys it's not gonna matter in a couple months like what do you do yeah we'll be fighting over a molten heap uh in no time so what's the deal and and I agree you know like there there are parts of the world that are gonna become quite uninhabitable and you think about the billionaire class you know I remember I think it was Peter Teele when they said you know [SPEAKER_01]: And then the industry is like, you're hesitating because, you know, they, they, you know, they are aware too.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, they've got a plan and I don't think we do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we are getting whipped up by these petty differences.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can see it on social media all the time and I don't want to rail against that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think, yeah, we all have a little inner polo in us of just during kind of broadly at all of these things and things like, [SPEAKER_01]: for us, I mean, maybe even less, but, you know, again, the moralizing there, I really do appreciate because, you know, we can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and it's not a better time, it could also be a freight train if we're not careful.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so we better, we better start really thinking about it, and acting upon it in a way that is kind of win-win, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: There are things these the species could do.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I've enjoyed Polo, his development as a character so far as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: He seems very personable.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a you know kind of like a childish uncertainty but also a sense of wonder to him.

[SPEAKER_01]: He has the the spirit of an inventor and actually in a few of the other episodes.

[SPEAKER_01]: you can hear people shouting his name once or twice that I wanted to bring up in the last time we spoke but I really appreciated again the detail that the sound artists are going into but I think by shouting his name it's one of those you didn't notice it but your brain did I think we are really meant to to to to kind of cleave to Apollo a lot as a character and unfortunately I do think that considering this story is a tragedy his story will be one of the biggest.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I get that feeling as well, and even on the small scale here, like, he goes to con to try to appeal to him.

[SPEAKER_02]: It says we shouldn't be doing this.

[SPEAKER_02]: They can help us.

[SPEAKER_02]: We can, they'll have technology.

[SPEAKER_02]: They'll have mapped the planet.

[SPEAKER_02]: We can, we can use that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And con says, oh, you've given me a lot to think about.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Paul says, awesome.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you're not going to go kill them.

[SPEAKER_02]: He said, oh, no, we're still going to do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're just going to capture a few of them and make them show us how to use their technology.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: Con's lieutenant there.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're done here.

[SPEAKER_02]: Get out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Slice.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, man.

[SPEAKER_02]: Talk about allegory for, you know, the way scientists and science are used by the ruling class, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, totally.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, anyway.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the attack goes ahead.

[SPEAKER_02]: Plant, plant plans, this attack using squads of three, one automatic weapon each, and swords and maces for everyone else.

[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Again, with the number of people there, it's like...

[SPEAKER_02]: Boy, yeah, the hubris of this is pretty intense, but I do like this conversation between Marla and Con, where Marla is kind of employing him not to go, and Con, the typical, you know, action hero guys is like, [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you don't need to worry about me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm strong.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll survive.

[SPEAKER_02]: Don't worry about me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Marla is like, dude.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not worried about you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying that you have a lack of imagination.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is not what you need to be doing right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: I did, I loved that scene.

[SPEAKER_02]: I thought, uh, wrench bit as Marla.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just love her.

[SPEAKER_01]: Marla, I think spent a lot of time finding herself in Con's society, and I think that that's good, but I think this again sort of shows where maybe an unresolvable difference is going to exist for her.

[SPEAKER_01]: moving forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, obviously in Star Trek, the wrath of Kahn, he mourns a loss of his wife and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm starting to think more of there might be some guilt in that morning, the loss of his wife.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think where that guilt's going to get transferred over to his to Kirk.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we can again see that that Kahn is going to be to a degree the architect of his own [SPEAKER_01]: because of the way he handles things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, this is where we can also talk a bit about Ivan.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's going to come up more, but the relish that he has in getting into this down in dirty fight, I find him to be a revolting character.

[SPEAKER_02]: in so many ways this absolutely revolting and he proves he he just gets he gets under my skin the more he he says words and does things from this point on word absolutely yeah so yeah this this attack begins but uh one of the suppositions that Marla put forward turns out to be true the aliens who they've not observed speaking or anything like that turn out to be telepathic [SPEAKER_02]: and they're able to easily thwart this attack by apparently melting and breaking the weapons with the power of their minds, which at first.

[SPEAKER_02]: Which at first when I was listening to this, I was wondering if that was actually happening or if that was in their minds, but in the next episode, I think it's pretty clear that no, they were actually just physically mentally breaking those weapons and melting them [SPEAKER_02]: quite powerful these aliens who come from the planet Elboria, which I thought was Eloria at first I was like guidance people, but yeah, just just similar sounding.

[SPEAKER_02]: but one of them who calls himself Dhamanda communicates with Con directly in his mind.

[SPEAKER_02]: This was really fascinating, this dialogue between the two of them as, you know, Con realizes kind of the futility of what they were trying to do, and [SPEAKER_02]: DelMonda is confronted with this being who, you know, seems to want to kill them, but, you know, has no trust of them whatsoever, and he says, okay, well, here, this will make you trust us.

[SPEAKER_02]: Here's an underground source of water where you can live and wait out the coming cataclysm, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So, interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: What are your thoughts on all of this?

[SPEAKER_01]: So for whatever reason, my picturing of them is the season eight Simpsons episode where Mr.

Burns is thought to be an alien.

[SPEAKER_02]: I bring you peace.

[SPEAKER_01]: They just for whatever reason, that's the picture in my head of what they look like.

[SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: I like this idea of, there's sort of a lack of comprehension on both sides, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Concant understand anything other than just violence and conflict and winning through might.

[SPEAKER_01]: And DelManda is having trouble being like, well, don't we, you know, why are you attacking me?

[SPEAKER_01]: This doesn't make any sense, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you attacking us, you know, there's no reason to, there's no point, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: his sort of omnipotence or semi omnipotence of being able to find this this water source and we'll see kind of more later but you know the fact that he can kind of turn their swords to plow shears and all these sorts of things again shows a shows just how you know our comprehension does have a lot to do with our cultural upbringing you know monsters are made [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Del Monde, his initial interaction with Khan, I found quite fascinating.

[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, especially the sound effects a game were really good.

[SPEAKER_01]: His broken communication was also pretty fascinating as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what he was able to kind of do [SPEAKER_01]: with Con's mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really like how much it perturbed Con because it did sort of show that in certain spaces he isn't strong, he's actually a weakling and I like how it perturbed him so.

[SPEAKER_01]: It did sort of satisfy me there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I enjoyed that, him kind of being shaken from his complacency, I guess, that he is the ours as the superior, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: No, not so much.

[SPEAKER_01]: But Mike Tyson always says that everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I'm got a real good punch in the face and I like it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the ending of the episode is Con recording directly into these logs, talking about the hope that fell from the sky.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that he doesn't fundamentally, he doesn't understand, though.

[SPEAKER_02]: Why he's being helped.

[SPEAKER_02]: He says, God's help me, how can I help but fear that, [SPEAKER_02]: So there's going to be still that wedge there where there's a disconnect.

[SPEAKER_02]: He just doesn't get why these people would be helping him.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, again, if we were to kind of philosophize into our own society, I do just think that in certain cases there are people who cannot fathom.

[SPEAKER_01]: anything other than the way it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And anything other than the way things are going.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's why they look for scapegoats, they victimize, they kind of create their own little echo chamber of reality where they can reinforce themselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the truth hurts, I think in a lot of cases, and I think that's why, like, how con is so perturbed by this because [SPEAKER_01]: He knows there's something that would need to change with in him to accept this help.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he does not know nor does he have the equipment to process that in a meaningful, understandable way.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's nice to see that he's at least capable of acknowledging that at this point.

[SPEAKER_01]: shows that he can change shows that he actually has that humanity with him within him.

[SPEAKER_01]: But of course, we know this is a tragedy, so that's not going to happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, there's a lot of interesting stuff to come out of this episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think I never [SPEAKER_02]: I never really even considered the possibility of other visitors to study alpha 5 that there would have been contact with others, so it's really fascinating to see that kind of dynamic play out.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Alex Perry of the weekly trek podcast, I think it was him was talking a bit about how he had no real interest in this show until it came out and he realized, oh wow this is really good [SPEAKER_02]: And he had said the only way he thought at the beginning that, like, before it came out that it would be interesting is if it told an Obi-Wan Kenobi type story where, you know, you think they've been exiled this whole time, but there's actually some weird adventure where Con left and did a bunch of stuff and then came back and he said, I don't want that to be the case.

[SPEAKER_02]: But this is kind of a reverse way of doing that, which is something that I hadn't even considered and which is why I'm not a writer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, honestly, I wasn't totally impressed with this arrival.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking this was going to be just sort of a straight-up survival story, you know, against all odds they survive until Kirk comes back.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the addition of this sort of...

[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't know, would we call this a subplot?

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like this is going to be a main plot.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think in some way, all of the challenges that they were facing, when they're hiding in the bushes like where the city yields where they have a problem with that, are they going to start attacking the algorithms and stuff like that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is there going to be anything extra in the coming months before the cataclysm begins?

[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like there was a bit of a, like an additional shift that wasn't absolutely necessary in the way I had pictured this, but you're right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a writer either.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I'll take the twist.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, the next episode of game does a pretty good job of sort of establishing this second side of the story.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it is true, as Paulo says, you know, like everything on this planet won't matter in a couple of months anyway.

[SPEAKER_01]: with the exception, I guess, of the saidy eel itself, because it is the only creature to survive, and well, it spends its time underground.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, here we are.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's a good note to segue into episode six, which we'll get to after a brief break.

[SPEAKER_02]: As always, positively trek is brought to you by its Patreon supporters, including Joyce Marin, Brandy Jackalah, Christina DeClirch Zalagi, John Guppy, out of memory, Patrick Carlin and Ricky Long.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you'd like to support the podcast, visit patreon.com slash positively trek.

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[SPEAKER_02]: episode shout outs, executive producer credits, and more.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much to those of you supporting us, we truly do appreciate it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now, back to the show.

[SPEAKER_02]: So episode six, the good of all.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, we are recording this on Monday the 13th.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this one, we've just listened to before sitting down to record this.

[SPEAKER_02]: So pretty fresh in our minds, which I think will lend itself to an interesting conversation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I guess first of all, we start out back on the Excel here, and we find out that, uh, that Sulu has ordered to walk, to keep an eye on Lear, to track her Cummings and goings and to make note of what she's, uh, doing in the computer and, and, and her logs and that sort of thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Again, I think kind of feeds into something you said about the last episode is a little bit of lack of imagination on Sulu's part.

[SPEAKER_02]: He sees someone that has maybe an advocate for something he fears and can't control, and therefore seeks to establish his own control over that aspect of it himself, which is.

[SPEAKER_02]: kind of a hair trigger typically human response to things, which is interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's what we're seeing in Con with what he's programmed to respond and we're seeing it also in Sulu and how he, you know, kind of jumps to things and wants to respond to.

[SPEAKER_02]: So interesting parallels there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well aren't Starfleet officers also technically programmed?

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: I see all are.

[SPEAKER_01]: All of human beings are.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think, I think again, we've, we've got a, a very neat, deeper philosophical question here of, you know, are you aware of your own programming?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's, that's what I liked about the, how con was perturbed by, by, Del, Del Mond, Del Monday, I believe, size, size name, Del Monda.

[SPEAKER_01]: DelMonda, thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I keep thinking DelMonti, whenever I say something to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I think of DelMonti and how Con is sort of, I guess, maybe, obliquely aware of his own programming because he knows this is the thing that's happening, but it's like trying to explain to a person a color they can't see, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, have you ever, like, everyone just think in your [SPEAKER_01]: explain a color to a person who's been blind since birth, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's impossible and it is actually perturbing to be able to try and explain that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, I think this also is quite indicative of where Sulu is coming from.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he's acting outside of what his quote unquote programming is.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just find it interesting how Lear kind of sees through that pretty fast, doesn't she?

[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And also, two-voc really fascinates me in this as well because he's been working closely with her.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he has a problem with kind of being ordered to do this.

[SPEAKER_02]: But [SPEAKER_02]: does his duty because he's a Starfleet officer.

[SPEAKER_02]: But as you say, Leer sees through it right away and confronts two-box and says, you know, she says, I'm going to go talk to Captain Sulu about this and two-box like, no, don't.

[SPEAKER_02]: That will make absolutely no difference.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to end up kind of being on her side a little bit if you can [SPEAKER_02]: put it in that black and white stark terms like he definitely sees the value in what she's doing and sees a little bit of the illogic in Sulu's reaction to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, even two of the language used in the exchange between two of our consumers very interesting and soon picks up on it, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You feel, he says, you feel that's interest.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not very vulcan of you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I'm like, yeah, he's going to be, he'll be, he'll be leaving Starfleet, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think over some severe differences.

[SPEAKER_01]: So no, I, I, I really like that [SPEAKER_01]: this dash of emotion that two-voc brings forward it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for Sulu, you know, obviously having spent so much time on a bridge with a Vulcan, you know, he's quick to pick up on that.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's quite canny and understands that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even though I think he's showing a lack of imagination, Sulu knows his crew.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I really like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That little piece there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I remember in the first episode, what we talked about it, I mentioned the whole suit, or two-voc leaving Starfleet thing, and then I kind of off-handed at least said, but they probably we won't really, like, that won't be part of this story, really, like it's just blah, blah, blah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I neglected to take into account the fact that Kirsten Bayer is one of the writers on this show.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that woman has lived in brief Star Trek Voyager.

[SPEAKER_02]: She knows those characters inside and out.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, if she's writing to Valk.

[SPEAKER_02]: She knows everything about that character and I guarantee I almost completely flip what I said in episode one I guarantee that's at least going to be touched on if we don't find out the reason for him doing it It's at least going to be clear that this contributed to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think so Asked to have absolutely that that is me not giving credit where credit is due [SPEAKER_02]: to someone who's an incredible writer and I've just momentarily forgot how in meshed-in Voyager she is and how well she knows those characters, so yeah definitely.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, so that's kind of going on on the Excelsior, some interesting politics there.

[SPEAKER_02]: We'll come back to the Excelsior at the very end because there's a revelation right at the end that is going to be [SPEAKER_02]: something that really changes a lot of how I think going to be viewing what exactly is going on here.

[SPEAKER_02]: But back on City Alpha 5, Con and Del Manda are becoming closer.

[SPEAKER_02]: They've established this kind of dialogue between them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there's this kind of more trust-forming between them, or at least it seems that way.

[SPEAKER_02]: But Con is still wanting to keep tabs on the librarians, so he is having Ivan and others tracking them and keeping tabs on their movements.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's, yeah, a little bit of a, I kind of wonder how much of that is Con wanting to not make his people think that he's trusting them so much, but he actually is finding himself trusting them a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was kind of curious about that interplay there.

[SPEAKER_02]: How much of that is keeping up appearances for his people a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's a lot of intricate dynamics that are taking place.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Con is sort of, he's dipping his toe in the waters of diplomacy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, as someone who would have had to rule, you know, the planet and stuff like that planet Earth.

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, he would have had to have had a certain amount of that in him as well to be able to do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think he was able to use the bargaining chip of his brutality, whereas that's no longer something that he's capable of doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, a little interesting exchange that I appreciated there as well with when he offers Delmond of vodka.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, and Demanda is like, oh, well, like, what's this for?

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, well, it lubricates social, you know, social interactions, stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, well, it's like a blunt object, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: There are other ways, you know, to use certain types of toxins or substances to lubricate social interaction.

[SPEAKER_01]: Alcohol is a real kind of like a blunt object.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's funny that Ivan's the guy making it.

[SPEAKER_01]: the blunt object of the group.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you see a lot of gain, how DelMonda sees right through, where Con is coming from in a lot of ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also like that he eats the bones as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's fresh to them, and that was a really good one.

[SPEAKER_02]: You meant to eat around the bones.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like a bone calcium's great.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, great.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was eating carrot cake at the time and when I first heard that I could feel it in my teeth and so I had to stop chewing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, another thing in this exchange that I appreciated too was something we touched on in the last episode a little bit is that not not understanding where the other is coming from.

[SPEAKER_02]: where con says, basically, like, why are you doing this?

[SPEAKER_02]: Why aren't you just taking what you want?

[SPEAKER_02]: And he said, well, why would we do that?

[SPEAKER_02]: And con says, well, if I had your numbers and your technology, like, I would have killed all of us, like, basically saying that if the roles were reversed, I would absolutely have killed all of you.

[SPEAKER_02]: After DelMonda had said, like, well, wouldn't you have done the same?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because like absolutely not I would have murdered every last one of you and he and he says it is though just like yeah That's a given and Yeah, that clash of cultures is interesting for sure [SPEAKER_01]: It is actually reminiscent, I'm doing a lot of research on the Crusades and how the two armies, the European Crusaders meeting the West Asian armies and how they interacted when the Omar obeyed, I believe, was his name, took Jerusalem back from the Crusaders, they came across a [SPEAKER_01]: And this cardinal is decked out and all these fine, you know, fine garments and robe diamonds and jewels and everything and at first he thought the man riding the camel was the, the, the, the head of this Muslim army and it turned out to the guy leading the camel was actually that caliph and he was in catored clothing and he's like, well, why are you dressed this way he's like one that wore.

[SPEAKER_01]: like why would I do that?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then later he's like well are you going to like pillage and plunder Jerusalem?

[SPEAKER_01]: He's like why?

[SPEAKER_01]: He's like we're we're not going to be able to like collect taxes and establish anything if we kill everybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: We we need these people here and we need them on our side.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like so you know you represent Christians.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's like where's the Jews?

[SPEAKER_01]: And the crusader Cardinals like oh we killed them all.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Omar made like what you you killed them all?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well yeah we we murdered every single one of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And immediately, he, Omar O'Bade, sent out for other Jewish people to come to Jerusalem and re-establish a Jewish community in Jerusalem right there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the Cardinals just, like, eyes like dinner plates, it's like, what are you doing?

[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, well, we need balance.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, I don't understand any of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, well, no, clearly not.

[SPEAKER_01]: All you know is fighting in death.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's interesting, because we have that again, all Kahn knows is destroyed.

[SPEAKER_01]: All Kahn knows is Mike makes right, power and destruction is how he thrives.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a very scary programming to have, and it's unfortunately a very scary programming that I think people in our current world seem to only understand, too.

[SPEAKER_02]: it's very stark when it's shown in a conversation like this.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like, uh, I don't know, I just, I wish the ideas behind our society and the way people think were laid a little bit more bare like that to kind of understand what's going on.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, [SPEAKER_02]: because this is very well written here.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of allegories going on that like does the stuff that Star Trek should do, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I'm loving this.

[SPEAKER_02]: So speaking of allegories and people representing forces in our society, [SPEAKER_02]: Ivan, this is where I think like up to this point obviously he's been incredibly aggressive and obviously I think I put it in you know the first couple episodes as like you know he's the snake in the in the society here.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is where I think he commits the the iridemoblesin the the transgression you cannot come back from.

[SPEAKER_02]: which is Ivan, as we said, has been keeping tabs on the Alborians.

[SPEAKER_02]: At one point, he comes across a low-nellborion by himself, and this Alborion tries to defend himself by getting into Ivan's mind, but Ivan resists and ultimately kills this Alborion.

[SPEAKER_02]: and it's brutal.

[SPEAKER_02]: They don't, they don't hold back, they don't hold back on what Ivan thinks and how he justifies what he's done and what he intends to do from that point forward.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you don't hear a lot from the other alborion, but you hear the terror and the helplessness [SPEAKER_02]: And it's brutal.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's really brutal.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it's straight up cold blood and murder.

[UNKNOWN]: 100%.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think Ivan in my mind anyway, maybe in this society, he's a part of he comes back from.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in my mind as far as a listener to this, he does not come back from.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, he's the monstrousness.

[SPEAKER_01]: It actually, [SPEAKER_01]: the what what I kind of what went through my mind was actually if anyone's ever seen the extremely difficult to watch movie American history X there's a part where Edward Norton's character who's a neo-nazi curb stomps someone.

[SPEAKER_01]: and his last words to him is now say good night, me, curb stomps him.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a visceral scene.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I felt, from what I think the doctor says later, the bootmark in the back of the, in the boot print in his skull.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, it really kind of just gave me American history exfives of just this, [SPEAKER_01]: lack of humanity that comes out of Ivan is plain for everyone to see.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you're right.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a moment of iridimability.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say a moment of [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know, the words aren't coming other than yeah, no, you and I have disliked this character from the start.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's really gotten under my skin in a lot of cases, and at this point, I am happy to see this person die to be on the site.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want this character around anymore, but I think he has to be here to really show us the reason why he [SPEAKER_01]: history sees Kahn as a monster, because I think we've mentioned this before.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the, we get stuck in these great man of history things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Kahn is a lot more of a complicated character, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's a complicated person in history.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there are some people who are pretty uncomplicated.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Ivan is one of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's a sociopath.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's a complete and total monster who is ready to kill at, [SPEAKER_01]: at a whim, and yeah, when he murders, when he commits this level of cold blooded murder, he takes joy in it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, it's gross.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm glad he gets apprehended pretty fast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So meanwhile, while this is happening, the, the, the canon, his people are kind of exploring these underground areas where this, this underground lake is and, and all of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: At one point, uh, Kahn hears his something going on with his people.

[SPEAKER_02]: So he leaves Marla to go look after them and [SPEAKER_02]: Trust that she can find her way out turns out that she was not able to do and she got a little bit lost But it's in this moment when they're separated and she's by herself that Del Monde reaches out to Marla and talks to her [SPEAKER_02]: and gets her to come to where Ivan is, where this is all happened.

[SPEAKER_02]: I found this really interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Del Manda in talking to Marla says, you're different from all the rest.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's something different about you, and I feel like I can reach you and talk to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, this distrust that Khan has had of Del Monde, we find out has been mirrored by Del Monde, and he recognizes that there's something very not right about Khan and his group, and but Marla is separate from that, which is interesting because you mentioned in the last episode as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: or in the previous part of this episode that there might be kind of a schism between Marla and Con and his followers at some point.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've seen them come together, perhaps we're going to see them come apart again at some point.

[SPEAKER_02]: I found that fascinating and I'd love to learn a little bit more about what Del Monde sees as the fundamental difference between Marla and Con and his followers.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think the fundamental difference is, is again, it comes down to programming.

[SPEAKER_01]: It comes down to worldview, those kinds of things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, yeah, I think the unfortunate piece of this is...

[SPEAKER_01]: If you've got these, this, this group of people who, you know, for the most part, only believe in might, only believe in power, only believe in, in violence to, to get what you're looking for.

[SPEAKER_01]: Someone like Marla is going to get in the way, you know, despite the fact that she is now carrying her and cons child.

[SPEAKER_01]: and for Dhamanda to recognize that, I think again, this is, this is going to draw a line I think between Marla and Lear as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's a, there's a programming, but there's also an ability to see past ones programming.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Lear and Marla both have shown [SPEAKER_01]: a propensity to be able to kind of see a bigger picture, to see something with a little more nuanced, and I think they've paid certain prices for that, and I don't think Marla's done paying a price for being able to do that, but it's good that Del Monte can recognize that, because I think the other piece of that is, I think the ability to see past that, to see more empathetically, to see the bigger picture, to understand and recognize nuance.

[SPEAKER_01]: and not see a world purely as a hammer would a bunch of nails.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that is maybe the advancement that humanity is really trying to get to.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the filter we need to pass through to be able to get to a better future.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Marla really does show that and domanda recognizes that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because I mean, not only are they, you know, is is Marla, uh, human being unobmented and, you know, the arguments are different from in that way, but there's also like 200 years of history, difference between them as well, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And, [SPEAKER_02]: If Star Trek is to be believed a lot happened in those 200 years to kind of advance us in the way we think and the way we deal with the universe, right, so it's interesting and I like that exploration there, but Marla [SPEAKER_02]: it's clear we we kind of for the first time get her on her own and hear her feelings about Ivan which I think are probably pretty obvious but it's still it's good to hear her say those things that like oh I'm I'm shocked that you know you were able to even I can't remember exactly what she says but she she feels she does not think highly of Ivan even before she learns that [SPEAKER_02]: But Khan has been made aware that the Elborians have Ivan and eventually comes to join them as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: And discovers what has happened here.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, interesting follow-out from that as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think all of this is happening again around the idea that that [SPEAKER_01]: We're still losing members of Kahn's party and the cave collapses that are starting to happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some of his more kind of staunch supporters, like the doctor are starting to lose a bit of hope and feeling that.

[SPEAKER_01]: that kind of hopelessness.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I think we do see that here in our world.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right now, there are some people who have, you know, I actually have a very close friend.

[SPEAKER_01]: I won't name them, but they are very much convinced that humanity is doomed.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're all going to die.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is our extinction event.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just a matter of trying to live life as happily as you can until that happens, whether it happens in our lifetime or not.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's inevitable at [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I don't necessarily see that as an a lot, totally a logical way of looking at things given the situation we are beset with and it's so much more intense if I don't set the alpha 5 and so I think we're going to see this start to really culminate in the coming episodes, especially given the revelations we've been given.

[SPEAKER_02]: that that reaction to losing the child, I think, was very stark and very realistic in my mind.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the part that I found the most interesting to me was she says all of these things to con.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Khan doesn't refute any of them.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can tell in his voice he's been chastened and he's thinking about things and he just says okay well the next thing I have to do is this I will go here and do this and kind of walk away.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I found that reaction really interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like in episode one, we would have gotten the bombastic speech that rallies all the people.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this one like he's on his back feet a little bit, as far as what's just been happening, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So, interesting, what happens next is the talking with the Alborians and Del Manda reveals [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, but yeah, apparently not for the librarians to escape, study alpha five, but rather for con and his people.

[SPEAKER_02]: That is an interesting revelation, and I feel like it could be taken two different ways, because like it could be a selfless act, but it could also be a threat.

[SPEAKER_01]: Almost, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I liked this twist at the end here.

[SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: It's left a lot of loose ends hanging, because now that we know what we know at the end here, apparently people are going to get off, say the alpha 5 before the cataclysm.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but who?

[SPEAKER_01]: And how many?

[SPEAKER_02]: And what exactly?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because, yeah, so the ultimate revelation back on the Excelsior at the end, of course.

[SPEAKER_02]: We find out, you know, two-voc, [SPEAKER_02]: gives a little quid pro quo to lear, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It says like, I want to know who your benefactor was, who gave you these initial logs that you got.

[SPEAKER_02]: And apparently it was DelMonda.

[SPEAKER_02]: So at some point, presumably DelMonda got off set A alpha 5 with whom, though, is a good question.

[SPEAKER_01]: All in all, I think this is the episode where I think we are going to get, we're going to start seeing the convergence of everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think everything's going to move pretty fast in the, I know they've had to like jump some weeks in some months in the last few episodes kind of setting the stage here.

[SPEAKER_01]: But as we are past the halfway point, I think we're going to see things kind of tumble together pretty starkly moving forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think all of these these questions and [SPEAKER_01]: that we currently sit in.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think what we're going to notice with the story is how quickly things can change and how quickly things can move.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, if there's anything that I could say about that in our world, it would be the same thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you can feel like, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: decades pass and nothing happens and then sometimes a year can pass and it feels like death decades go by right and I think since since about 2020 we've really felt that but I don't think we've seen anything yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: Good or bad.

[SPEAKER_01]: and hopefully more good, but in that time, you know, when things fall apart, they really fall apart.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, the plan that being affected by this change in gravity, causing earthquakes, making weather patterns shift and change and all these sorts of things, I mean, we are seeing that right now as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I think, you know, being that we are a positive duo, and I think most of our listeners are positive, [SPEAKER_01]: we can take tragedy stories like these and really reflect on what it is we can do to ensure that the worst doesn't happen fast or if bad things do happen we can mitigate them in ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: And look for the helpers as Mr.

Rogers would say and I think Dilmanda and his little group of algorithms could potentially be helpers here.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see the threat, but I can see [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm really curious to see where this story goes.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's in these two episodes really take turns that I was not expecting.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I really, it's really made me excited for what these last three episodes are going to bring us.

[SPEAKER_02]: As you say, I think there's there's going to be a convergence of the modern story, modern aboard the Excel Sear as well as what's going [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I wasn't anticipating that story having as big an impact on what's happening on the Excel series and all of that as I think it's going to have.

[SPEAKER_02]: So very excited about that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, in two weeks time we will be doing an episode on the next two episodes episodes seven and eight.

[SPEAKER_02]: Positively Trek is produced and edited by me, Dan Gunther, and co-produced by Barry Daphord on Treaty 8 Territory, the home of the Beaver, Cree, Dene, and Meti people, whose histories, languages, and cultures we respect.

[SPEAKER_02]: We acknowledge the many First Nations, Meti, and Inuit, who have lived in and cared for these lands for generations.

[SPEAKER_00]: see you