[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome everyone to another episode of Positively Trek.

[SPEAKER_01]: This one's a doozy folks.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've been really looking forward to chatting about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Dan, how you feeling today?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing okay if this internet of mine doesn't stop acting up.

[SPEAKER_00]: I tell ya.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know we're having uh we're having internet from the nineteen fifties right now folks i have to say so if things get a little pixelated on the video uh you know just pretend that there's a bunch of like spinning disks whirling around and weird inexplicable lights going off on big big boards and spinning disks do we have to try and maneuver them into these weird funnels and then get like you know feelings that we can't really describe one [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's another, I guess I suppose retro Star Trek aspect as well of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people, I think spend their time with those spinning discs and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know I've been playing a little too much online gaming over the last little while, just I've had a bit more free time on my hands, and I got stuck in on a game, and I'm really not good at it, Dan.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a terrible online gamer.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really bad at it, and I'm probably gonna stop.

[SPEAKER_01]: well it's got to keep giving you those dopamine hits to keep you going though so and I'm not getting any I'm getting more and more frustrated so yes I wouldn't I wouldn't have succumbed to the game as much as others [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this episode, I have to say, oh, and I'm Barry, by the way, sorry, I didn't, I don't think I ended up saying that.

[SPEAKER_01]: This episode, I've been really looking forward to Dan, mainly because I feel very much like it has a level of irreverence that personally [SPEAKER_01]: I always really enjoy.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's always an aspect of a television show, especially in its modern iterations, not taking itself seriously.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think to some degree, the ethos of positively trek lends itself to that a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I really feel like this is sort of a kindred spirit to the podcast itself that we run here.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you and I can be very heartfelt from time to time.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I also feel like we can enjoy a certain amount of irreverence.

[SPEAKER_01]: So kind of moving into this, that's the tone I want to take.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And to that, to your point there, it's an interesting episode and we'll get into this later for sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: It has this tone of irreverence, but it kind of morphs into a surprising reverence a little bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I kind of love that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we'll get into it for sure, but this is one, and we're recording this just to give a little bit of context.

[SPEAKER_00]: The first two episodes of the season just dropped last night as we're recording this.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, where a couple weeks ahead here, and I'm really curious what the general reaction of this episode is going to be.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have no idea.

[SPEAKER_00]: It could really go either way, I think.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm really curious to see what everyone else thinks, but yeah, they're writing a bit of a knife's edge here and I kind of dig it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this episode actually takes a ton of risks.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's useful and good.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think you and I have had hit and miss [SPEAKER_01]: responses to some of the track stuff when it comes out and we've got a couple of weeks before it actually comes out you know having having the screener privileges dear listener and viewer has it also kind of runs things on a razor edge because you know we're putting our flag down on how we feel about an episode long before all of the credits critics and the rest of the audience does so [SPEAKER_01]: Always know we are being one hundred percent honest we're not we're not looking at what other people have to say this is these are personal responses by yours truly and Dan and I think that's really important so take this so when when the episode itself does drop early late July early August I believe [SPEAKER_00]: I think the very last day in July is when this one, okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then our episode should be the next day after that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Perfect.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, this is an advance and so understand that this is us looking at this from a very honest and personal perspective.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, where you'd mentioned that there's a reverence, I would say that this episode is irreverently reverent in its approach.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you're writing that down as a title by the way.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think, yeah, it could, it could rub some people, especially former former Star Trek stars, the wrong way.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I really hope that you're coming from this episode, having watched it and maybe feeling similar to us, that you might start by looking at this and being like, wow, they're really taking some jabs here.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in the end, this baby wraps up in a pretty wonderful way.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there are some very interesting [SPEAKER_01]: aspect.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the episode we're talking about is Star Trek Strange New World's season three episode for a space adventure hour written by Diana Horton and Katherine Lynn and directed by Jonathan Freakin Freaks everybody.

[SPEAKER_00]: And just in case we miss mentioning this later in the episode, there's an actual audio cameo by Jonathan Friggs in this episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: During one of the scenes, you can hear him directing the the fifties, sixties, sci-fi pastiche.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, keep rolling, keep rolling.

[SPEAKER_00]: You just hear his voice faintly in the background.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was wonderful.

[SPEAKER_00]: I kept wanting him on screen, but yeah, a last, just his voice, but that was still worth the cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you picked that one out, too, and again, Dan, you've got the ears of a hawk.

[SPEAKER_01]: How do you say that?

[SPEAKER_00]: Who's I know my Star Trek stars.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's, you certainly do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, and again, I think, you know, looking in Diana, Oregon, Catherine Lynn and, and all good old Johnny Freaks as he'd been known as in those days, I'm sure in the, in the fifties.

[SPEAKER_01]: This episode was well crafted, well produced, and I think maybe just starting, let's talk a bit about this cold open.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in the note stand, you actually wrote, it's a fifties sci-fi parody.

[SPEAKER_01]: And those of you who have seen this episode, if you haven't seen this episode, please stop listening and go watch it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You'll enjoy this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even if you're like a casual Star Trek fan, [SPEAKER_01]: get them in on this because they would like this too.

[SPEAKER_01]: It does a lot of what I think shows like the Big Bang Theory does.

[SPEAKER_01]: It tries to paint Star Trek in this picture that isn't actually real.

[SPEAKER_01]: You were very clever to point out that actually Star Trek is [SPEAKER_01]: More how we talk about it, another podcaster's talk about Star Trek in its visions of understanding the human condition, understanding, you know, ripped from the headlines kind of ideas, talking about technology, our relationships with one another, what is intelligence?

[SPEAKER_01]: I could go on.

[SPEAKER_01]: This cold open is a lot more of that swash buckling, stylized, very misogynistic, fifties version of science fiction.

[SPEAKER_00]: very much what like Jean Roddenberry had said Star Trek was trying to argue against right lost in space it wasn't it wasn't that you know buck Rogers it wasn't that sort of thing it was it was meant to elevate the the form right [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like this maybe cold open might turn a lot of people off and this is where I'm I'm kind of wondering what the general reaction is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Folks watch the whole episode like it this is it's playing into as you say kind of the popular perception of what old Star Trek was you know rubber rocks people in big rubber suits and and like that kind of overacting and all of that stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you peel back that layer, Star Trek was a lot more than that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But this is definitely playing on those popular perceptions.

[SPEAKER_00]: You'll enjoy it or you won't.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think where [SPEAKER_01]: I really enjoyed it and what I liked, because I mean, you and I were able to clock what they were trying to do pretty fast.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would say, and again, this isn't a job for us.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a hobby, but because we do a lot of this, I think it was easy for us to recognize what they were, what they were getting at as the set designers.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I have to say, this set was meticulously put together.

[SPEAKER_01]: In a way that actually I found [SPEAKER_01]: A little surprising.

[SPEAKER_01]: They have, like I'd said, you know, they've got the spinning, spinning reels, like would have been in the late fifties early sixties.

[SPEAKER_01]: They had those sort of inexplicable blinking lights.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I remember, you know, watching different science fiction shows, usually through the lens of mystery science theater, three thousand.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of what I recognized was there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like it felt like this could have been the spaceship on this island earth or, you know, something along those lines.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's very clear to me that the set designers really did their homework on this one.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's gonna keep coming up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Both in regard to the set designers, in regard to the producers, the writers and the directors, you can really tell that they went into the source material that they were trying to draw from.

[SPEAKER_01]: In a very intentional way.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the colors, imagine watching this one, if say you didn't have a color television, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: the way those colors would would present on a black and white TV, I think would be really fascinating.

[SPEAKER_01]: I might have mentioned this in the past, but my mum's house in the late fifties, or I guess it would have been the early sixties, my grandpa won a television in a raffle, a color television, and so his was the first color television [SPEAKER_01]: on the block in like Northwestern Edmonton and so people would come from all around to watch the Ed Sullivan show and I think Benanza and then eventually Star Trek because those were the only shows in color and so kids from like my mum was like kids we didn't even know would like show up asking to come and watch the color TV [SPEAKER_01]: At the start, I mean, obviously everything loses its luster.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I remember my grandpa.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it actually was my grandma telling me that when she first started watching color TV shows, she was always like, I really felt like the colors were over the top that they were almost like, we're in color now.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was very loud and like, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also felt like, you know, the bridge that they created on this show, the last frontier.

[SPEAKER_01]: You could have played a game of mini golf on it, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it was kind of like lit by black light and had a lot of very sort of aggressive colors to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that's kind of my long-winded chatter, love letter to these set designers.

[SPEAKER_01]: This was a very meticulously put together set.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And meticulously put together in such a way that it looks like it's cheap.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I appreciated that, though, the one part where they're like doing the fake shaking thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And during the course of that, I kind of had to think about the process involved in this.

[SPEAKER_00]: During that, one of the levers like bounces around and falls off the console.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, [SPEAKER_00]: Wait a minute, they're not actually shaking the set.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like that was designed to do that as the camera was shaking to make it look cheaper.

[SPEAKER_00]: But like the mechanism or how they manage to do that, whether it was just the actor knocked in and I didn't notice or they were actually some mechanism to do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's pretty complicated.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That was great.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, the little visual gag of the cheapness of the set kind of falls apart when you realize it's not actually shaking.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's no reason it would like be loose from it's housing because it's shaking.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it was clever as a clever little site gag.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so much clever site gig.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, open the door.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're not pulling the string fast enough and all that sort of stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm still trying to figure out who the actor was in that alien costume.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had one point thought it was Rebecca Romaine, but same.

[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't sure after that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, it was a woman I believe or the voice was female coded for sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: But [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was like, is that Rebecca Romaine or someone else?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of almost hope it was a regular like double or background actor who actually got to get some lines and a little extra paycheck that week.

[SPEAKER_00]: That would make me happy.

[SPEAKER_01]: that would but it would also kind of make me happy if Rebecca remain had to endure all of that crazy makeup because what a crab I loved how I loved how like upset that that character was portrayed in their like weird outfit.

[SPEAKER_01]: So speaking of actors, let's talk a little bit about what I would say, I really appreciate the range that we get from these actors.

[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I'd mention the meticulousness of the set designers, the source material that the writers drew from, the way in which Shrakes directed this, but I mean part of the ensemble part of this team is the actors.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I have to say, [SPEAKER_01]: I had waxed lyrical already about this cast.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is one of the reasons.

[SPEAKER_01]: They have an extremely strong range and they work so well as an ensemble.

[SPEAKER_01]: They draw off of each other.

[SPEAKER_01]: You could feel the energy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love watching TV or movies where it's very clear.

[SPEAKER_01]: The actors are having fun and watching them have fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: gives me so much more investment in the story.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's start with T.K.

[SPEAKER_01]: Bellows, the creator of the final, or the last frontier.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hanson Mount plays the standin for Jean Roddenberry, but not really Jean Roddenberry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really feel like they, they side stepped him quite a bit, wouldn't you say?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they definitely, with maybe one exception, don't do one to one of real-life people.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, this was interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have a lot to say about kind of what this episode is saying about Star Trek as well through this character.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, he plays T.K.

[SPEAKER_00]: Bellows the creator and head writer of The Lost Frontier, like you said.

[SPEAKER_00]: And over the course of this episode, getting more and more drunk.

[SPEAKER_00]: basically, which I feel like was a lot of fun for him to play, and he's just off his rocker.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I noted, partly through that, he may be a little bit more Isaac Azimov than Jean Roddenberry, just based on what I've seen of him, not the getting drunk or anything like that, but just a little bit in the way the character looks.

[SPEAKER_00]: and a little bit in the way that he he acts with other people and stuff felt a little bit Isaac Asimov and if you want to see I can't think of a lot of Isaac Asimov examples that you can quickly look up but another really good one where they were absolutely channeling Isaac Asimov would be Colmini playing the writer in far beyond the stars that was very much an Isaac Asimov [SPEAKER_00]: Spoof, and you'll note a lot of similarities between his performance and aunts and mountains performance here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say an Isaac Azimoff meets Andy Warhol.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mmm, yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: Good call.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was struggling to find his name there, but yeah, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a grand departure as well from from the type of character that Mount plays right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Normally.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've noticed that I think he likes to do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you think back to season one, or at least the writers like having him do this or something, in season one, the Elysian kingdom, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: He played the kind of nebish duplicitous turncoat character, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And he was very, you know, slimy and very uncaptain pipe, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And then same here, very uncapped in pike.

[SPEAKER_00]: He talks very quietly in kind of this, this particular little thing, voice and it's just not the commanding presence that pike is.

[SPEAKER_01]: He likes to mince.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just mince around.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's really fun to see.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's also fun watching him hold a gun and a drink at the same time.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's more to talk about TK bill.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm actually gonna, I'm gonna jump a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to, just looking, we have a script we run off folks and I'm gonna jump the next character because I feel like a lot needs to be said there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want to get stuck in the reads of that one.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we've got Jess Bush as Adelaide Shaw, who plays the first female officer.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you have to say about this one overall, would you say?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's funny because they're also not only playing the actor, they're playing the actor, playing the character.

[SPEAKER_00]: So her line readings as the first officer of the USS Adventure are fun.

[SPEAKER_00]: But Captain, blah, blah, like very straight, you know, adventure kind of [SPEAKER_00]: It's sounding, but then as herself, outside of the production, she actually gets to use her own native Australian accent.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like it because she really does come off as a fish out of water, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously in the nineteen sixties with Star Trek we see leading ladies, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Major Barrett and Michelle Nichols just to name two to start, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Who have prominent roles in an otherwise male and white male dominated genre of television?

[SPEAKER_01]: So I like how when she's the actor playing the character in it, in space adventure, our last frontier, she really does have that kind of like high shoulder.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't actually know what I'm doing here.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm probably still super objectified off-screen kind of way about her.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know who she reminded me of, I'm just realizing this now is Yoman Colt from the original cage.

[SPEAKER_00]: Captain, blah, blah, blah, like just, yeah, I totally come.

[SPEAKER_00]: Good catch.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would imagine Bush probably used that thinking about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there is a lot of like center of the screen turn, but captain, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the reflection on her voice.

[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like a window one.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do appreciate hearing the actual accent that she has.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can't say I've heard it much in the past and convincing her American accent is actually pretty strong.

[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate it very much and accents do some changing around here and I sometimes on the fly which I really do enjoy.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk a little bit about Melissa Navia as Lee Woods, the doctor, and just the general frustration that she sort of exhibits throughout this entire story.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so yeah, when we see her in character as the doctor and she just credited in the opening credits as the doctor.

[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't have much, she kind of got a gruff aspect to her voice.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think she was channeling a little bit of deforest Kelly bones McCoy there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, of that my favorite though is when we see her as [SPEAKER_00]: Lee Woods, the actor during the whole murder mystery thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she's kind of almost the same, a little bit gruff, a little rougher on the edges.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she has the best, one of the best lines of the episode, I think, where, you know, someone has died.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, what's wrong with her?

[SPEAKER_00]: What's happened?

[SPEAKER_00]: And she says, you know, I'm an actor, not a doctor, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Very nice.

[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing I want to comment on, and I recently, as I mentioned in a previous episode, heard an interview with Melissa Navia, and her hair in this episode, Kate.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And apparently, like the first trailer dropped.

[SPEAKER_00]: and her mom I think it was called her up and said what is with your hair this season and she's like that's just it's it's for a thing I can't really explain it it's not it's it's it's a thing don't don't don't I don't no long air no no no no yeah [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I really think they kind of captured the sixties style really well.

[SPEAKER_01]: That kind of blend between how different people would be dressing at about that time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like her actor, the chief plays the Lee Woods actor, would like fit in really well hanging out with kind of Bruce Lee's crowd to some degree.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, the leather jacket, kind of looking cool, you know, from that part of the LA, you know, Pasadena sort of area.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really do appreciate her general kind of like frustrated.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not really a part of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually just simply getting a paycheck for this and everybody taking themselves so seriously is kind of annoying, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I really feel like she bounced off of other characters [SPEAKER_01]: self-importance really well with a kind of like oh my god like this is dumb why are we here why am I having to deal with these idiots kind of feel which I really appreciate I liked that and she carries that kind of energy extremely well so as that we've also got babes with a I don't think a speaking role I don't think he says more though yeah no he's he's got a bit like he gets interviewed by the [SPEAKER_01]: Right later on yes, but he does kind of just sort of exist on the periphery of this of this cast, but he does a really good job of a game just kind of being a Hollywood person being a Hollywood person in a Hollywood place like you would see in the nineteen sixties you know again very very much someone I think would hang out in kind of Bruce Lee's LA crowd right like I could see him you know [SPEAKER_01]: maybe even channeling the black Panther vibe a little bit to some degree or the black power vibe which was obviously growing quite a bit in the nineteen sixties and I appreciate that quite a bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but also illustrating the weirdness of Hollywood in that he's helping.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think Lee Woods write a Western script or something.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just love how the the the the weird swings that Hollywood takes that like, you know, someone who you would never expect is working on a Western script, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, I love, you know, that's kind of where things, where things went, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you think about the TV show Kung Fu, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It was, it was a martial arts Western.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, a lot of risks were taken in the sixties and the late fifties in terms of television.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot more than the risks that get taken today, obviously.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then we've, we've, we've complained about that quite a bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: So moving next on, we've got our Lucille Ball character, I guess, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: We've got Rebecca Romain as Sunny Lupino, and her husband gets off to pretty fast, which I also feel dizzy kind of gets that to some degree in [SPEAKER_01]: In the storytelling, I think he didn't really treat Lucille Ball very well from what I understand, and they often, immediately, he doesn't even get a moment to even speak for himself, but to some degree, I don't necessarily feel bad about that, just given what I understand the actual man did to Lucille Ball.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a that's an interesting kind of kind of connection there, but Rebecca Romaine does a good job and I feel like she kind of channel a little arrested development Lucille to some degree.

[SPEAKER_00]: Would you say I could see that I could see that yeah [SPEAKER_00]: Um, or her death scene, especially, I think, was the holiday, having a little bit of fun there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but, uh, yeah, I really appreciate this character.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of sad we don't get more time with her, but, uh, definite, yeah, Lucille ball vibes there, you know, the person who pushed for Star Trek, or sorry, the last frontier, my bad, with her husband, co-producer kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: interesting commentary there, I think, which I appreciated.

[SPEAKER_00]: I like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and I think, again, this episode does a lot to underscore how much women played a role in the stewardship of the series as it got started, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And in real life, obviously, an extremely fundamental role to play, and non-white women, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so looking at Celia Rose Gooding as the talent agent, I really have to say her costuming was fantastic.

[SPEAKER_01]: hashtag in this like wow like a lot of range and stuff like that but they they really did her did her up well and and I have to say that that nineteen sixty style really fits her [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I feel very much like, as the talent agent, you again get to kind of get a glimpse at that kind of murky aspect of, in a characterized sort of sense, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: She is that interlocutor between the cast and the writers and everyone else.

[SPEAKER_01]: And people who really are just interested in the bottom line.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think that's something that's changed and maybe using T.K.

[SPEAKER_01]: Bellows as another aspect of that when we talk about him a little more in depth.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like there's a commentary being made also by the writers here, but I'm going to get into that a little bit later as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: Celia Rose Gooding's character as the talent agent.

[SPEAKER_00]: I really appreciated her performance here with as the story.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'd star trek fan basically at one point.

[SPEAKER_00]: But one thing I also really liked was this is a television show in twenty twenty five.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's continually trying to find a light for her cigarette.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because they don't want to show somebody smoking.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: No absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and she also does a good job at maybe speaking on behalf of the writers.

[SPEAKER_01]: Where I kind of where I was getting at there is that she is kind of the fourth wall breaker a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I forget the exact, I don't have the quote, but there is a point where the way she talks about this fictionalized television show kind of blends out into what I think the writers are trying to say to us.

[SPEAKER_01]: in a lot of ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she does a really good job of making that connection.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, looking for the lighter shows she's kind of a future person in this past setting.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we've left this one for the last, but Paul Wesley, please.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maxwell St.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like Bill Shattner might be a little upset.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: Bill Shattner plays the parody version of William Shattner enough, but I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think you'd appreciate it.

[SPEAKER_00]: The one thing I will say is, [SPEAKER_00]: It's so obvious to me that Paul Wesley came in with this idea to do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I bet you no matter what he did, Jonathan Freaks as the director was there, going more, give me more, give me more.

[SPEAKER_00]: because this is pushed to the absolute end-th degree.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean like the number of times I've watched that scene, where he's like, don't let you me on space jurisdiction.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm known for my [SPEAKER_00]: Diction.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like oh my god.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so bad.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or they like good.

[SPEAKER_01]: They like oom in on his eyes and like the light comes on his chest.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my goodness.

[SPEAKER_01]: But even like off like his his off screen, you know Maxwell saint is as well just an insufferable prick.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like yeah playboy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know very very self-involved very you know he is a legend in his own mind like he knows that like this this is a masterpiece because of me you know but then he spends so much time bumbling around the set like later he gets stuck in the chair or you like destroy breaks the chair down and stuff like that like trying to swing his leg over it exactly does the record maneuvering just takes it out no I do have to say that that Paul Wesley [SPEAKER_01]: as a person who is reinventing Kirk in a lot of ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in a really good way, I do very much, quite appreciate his Kirk, in fact, to the point that it might now be my favorite Kirk.

[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe that's just because it's the most recent one, and maybe I'll change if we do another iteration later or something.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I do have to say his iteration of Kirk is fantastic, and his iteration of a Pestiche of Bill Shattner as Kirk.

[SPEAKER_01]: was fantastic.

[SPEAKER_01]: I agree with you that he would be seeing or that Jonathan Friggs would be wanting more and more.

[SPEAKER_01]: But also, I mean, Friggs kind of played the next generation of Kirk in D&D originally, but obviously with a lot more seriousness kind of put into the character.

[SPEAKER_01]: So who better to also kind of get his little take on Kirk than Jonathan Friggs himself as the director?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I will say like we now know that Paul Wesley can do Shattner's Kirk if he so chose, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, he brings his own to Kirk, but you know, if you really wanted him to, he could, but, but, but no thanks.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And now, back to the show.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the range of this fictional ensemble within that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But now, I think we can start talking a bit about the character development within this as well, because as much as this is sort of, like we said, an irrevently reverent take on Star Trek and sci-fi in the sixties, I think we also get some pretty strong character development, especially around Lawn and Scotty, specifically.

[SPEAKER_01]: So starting with Lawn, one thing that, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: that we've talked about is how much she's opening up, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: She's kind of, she's kind of come through a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I would argue that that has something to do with, and Dan, you'd mention this, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, now that she's kind of face the gorn, she can kind of put that in the past a little bit more, she can kind of move beyond it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that was a really good point you brought up.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think to start what I really liked was when she got to go into this holiday session, she almost had a child like enjoyment.

[SPEAKER_01]: because she was reading those novels that kind of based itself off of the murder mystery that was being created by the holiday.

[SPEAKER_01]: And watching her enjoy kind of playing dress up is something that I can really really kind of connect to myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love dressing up in my in my fandom stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so seeing her do that with like the smokey eyes and and that gained nineteen sixties kind of feel with the preposterous but also workable hat.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really really enjoy this.

[SPEAKER_01]: You kind of gave me like Carmen San Diego vibes to some degree.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's so much fun to see her cut loose a little bit and I I don't think even think that's subtext.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's text that you know having pushed through this goorn stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's really allowed her to come out on the other side.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like we saw a brief glimpse of a possible future for her at the end of season one of strange new worlds.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she was bright and smiling and gave Pike a hug.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Pike was like, what is happening?

[SPEAKER_00]: And we're seeing that.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're seeing her blossom into that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm here for it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love [SPEAKER_00]: uh...

we mentioned in a previous episode her personality type that i've seen her in interviews and stuff is much closer to the really bubbly over the top joyous type person and i'm i'm look forward to seeing shades of that in line and i think we're getting a little bit of that here i really really enjoy that if i was to make a prediction i do feel like that darker edge will [SPEAKER_01]: reveal itself again or have to be sort of revisited in the future.

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, I think that the writers are kind of setting us up for that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But getting still a deep part of her for sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely not.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It could go a couple of different ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously, we don't know lawns fate, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess ultimately.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in this respect, I think that we're getting more textures.

[SPEAKER_01]: to these actors.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they get to do whatever they want with Lund.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that by sort of exploring this other level of her, again, it exhibits the range that the actor has.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, again, I like the fact that she throws a very strong North American accent as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm quite impressed by it.

[SPEAKER_01]: but also the change feels earned I guess is the best way to put it is watching her develop over the last few seasons none of this feels like she just sort of like flipped a switch you can really follow the trail of rice and I think that creates a lot more investment in the character in a way that doesn't always happen in [SPEAKER_01]: modern serialization, modern kind of episodic television.

[SPEAKER_01]: So even though we have episodic style of the series, we still see this very kind of like through line of character development.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think we would be remiss also to not bring up kind of how this episode ends.

[SPEAKER_01]: right with the fact that she and Spock have been confiding in each other that they've been opening up quite a bit and as much as this was an irreverent and kind of fun quirky episode um what do you think about that kissing the end oh boy there was there was some heat to it and and I'm like man Spock Spock's a player right I wasn't expecting this but yeah [SPEAKER_00]: I like that it's not, it's not out of left field, it's not.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's a bit of a surprising moment for sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: But when it happens, you kind of put all the pieces together from the last few episodes, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Of the times they've spent together working on, you know, Spock's Dancing, and all of this, he's replaced his morning calisthenics routine with dance training, and she's taken part in that a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot of fun.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm curious to see where this goes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, unexpected, but not surprising, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I don't think un-earned, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like they did.

[SPEAKER_01]: As they sort of physically interact with each other through the dance.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, some of the dancing they've been doing, woof does.

[SPEAKER_01]: At the same time though, I feel like Spock has really opened up to Lawn and I feel like Lawn has been a really good sort of lighthouse for him in his moments of turmoil and frustration and uncertainty.

[SPEAKER_01]: So again, I'm not surprised that the two of them have actually found that by confining in each other, they actually [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of might like one another and I yeah that kiss really does it sets things in motion like here we are chuckling and laughing and being like oh wow you know like what a cool love story to start track this and then they bam hit you with this thing that makes you be like okay I got to watch the next episode this has to happen [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So again, and then solving solving this case, I feel like again, her knowing spark has a lot to do with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think we'll we'll get to the solution of this case a little bit later, but I'll kind of put a pin in that for now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Scotty.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not quite no one exactly what he's doing, but I liked kind of how you had mentioned the way Scotty is handling things.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so Scotty, not quite the miracle worker that we know him to be yet.

[SPEAKER_00]: And again, there's a little bit of Una character stuff here that links back to a previous episode where we talked about her as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love that in the course of this episode, Scotty is [SPEAKER_00]: going at a loan and taking on all these challenges himself and refusing help basically and at the end of the episode and all said and done everything the crisis has passed.

[SPEAKER_00]: Una calls him out on it and says you know there are two hundred and three people on this ship and they're all very qualified.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's no reason you had to be in there dealing with that yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can ask for help.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's not a team player yet.

[SPEAKER_00]: He feels like he has to go it alone because of what happened with the Star Diver and the loss of his crew there.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he feels like that's all on him and he needs to assume that burden and not endanger or bring other people in, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking forward to more development on Scotty over the next hopefully three seasons, I guess.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's a such a fascinating character and was always one of my absolute favorites in TOS, so to see the beginnings here, I think, is a lot of fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think there's a reminiscent maybe a through line that we can draw with the entire the entire storytelling of this season of people trying to do things on their own or on their own volition being very single-minded when really that's not a good idea, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm reminded of Ortegas's maneuver.

[SPEAKER_01]: in the last episode, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: She really shouldn't have taken matters in her own hands because, of course, Pike and Embango would have gotten off that planet anyways, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: She did actually endanger the crew.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Luna is, again, kind of showing a bit of a through line that she does actually have what it takes.

[SPEAKER_01]: to be that voice of reason in command and to remind everybody that we're a team.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're a crew.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're together in all of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: We do things single-mindedly and on our own without the input and assistance from other people.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to make it very far.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was actually talking about this kind of taking this into our society.

[SPEAKER_01]: You and I live in a heavy resource extraction part of the world where a lot of people work.

[SPEAKER_01]: especially in oil and gas and I have a friend who has been working quite a bit in that realm and he very much says like there's so many people who try to do things on their own by themselves without any other assistance and he's like and that's how people lose fingers and get hurt and you know mess things up because they they get angry and all just do it myself and and then [SPEAKER_01]: It typically ends in disaster.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have to understand that error is part of learning, first of all.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I see Scottie making errors in this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate how through these errors and missteps, he is solving the problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he's never going to be able to totally do it alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, obviously, this has a lot to do with his PTSD, too, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: What happens on the StarDread diver?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it would make me kind of rethink how [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if I just do it, it would be easier kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we have to kind of let go of that and work as a team and understand that, you know, by doing things just yourself, you know, you isolate and you atomize.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you and I come from the education profession.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, there's a lot of teachers, I think, who just kind of do things alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that can really wipe you out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Scotty is also not only a great character development in this, I think he's a very strong lens on the hyper individualism that we see in our society today.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it started in the sixties, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: There is a lot of the don't tell me what to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll do it myself kind of field to things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, his comes definitely from a state of fear and sorrow and trauma, but it comes from a lot of different places.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you made a good point about the individualistic nature, especially coming out of the sixties and stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: I never really thought of it through that lens, but yeah, I like that this show kind of becomes a bit of a commentary on that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, we're big on Star Trek and it's social messaging.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's part of the messaging that I think is easy to overlook, the little things like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: In much the same way that watching TNG growing up, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: I got little lessons about what it's like to work in a team, to work as part of a group.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like this is yet another generation that maybe needs a bit of that lesson, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, oh, that's cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: I like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Star Trek exploring the human condition.

[SPEAKER_01]: Who would have thought?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: These are all this and a weekly space adventure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: So how this all plays out, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: The solution to the Holodec mystery.

[SPEAKER_01]: Who is the killer?

[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that the Holodec, it's said in this episode that it's going to kind of read the player, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Who in this case is Lawn?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to read her and sort of devise a solution that she'll be able to figure out, but it's not going to be kind of an easy one.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's going to kind of hybridize itself as it goes.

[SPEAKER_01]: How did you feel about how this murder mystery kind of plays out?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I have to say it was clever in that, like, I didn't see the ultimate solution to the mystery coming in retrospect.

[SPEAKER_00]: And actually, I know you haven't had an opportunity to watch this episode a second time, but watch this episode a second time.

[SPEAKER_00]: For example, during the interrogation scene of Paul Wesley's character, [SPEAKER_00]: They're sitting there interrogating him and Spock says, did you murder so and so?

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, no, did you?

[SPEAKER_00]: Although these little foreshadowing bits and there's a bunch of them and I'm like, oh, interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I love foreshadowing in these pieces of media that especially when you re-watch it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the fact that the holographic spark, spark was never there from the very beginning.

[SPEAKER_00]: It turns out that he's the killer.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we have shades of elementary-deer data here, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Where Jordi says to the computer, create an adversary capable of defeating data, which gives rise to morey-arty, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Lawn here says, create a mystery that I would have a difficult time solving.

[SPEAKER_00]: I as Lawn, Nune and Sing, not the character, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And the computer says, okay, here's the [SPEAKER_00]: typical thing for this mystery, here's a solution you're never going to see coming, and it kind of breaks its own rules to do it a little bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: I loved that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought that was great, and the way that she comes to that realization was wonderful too.

[SPEAKER_00]: I make no claim of seeing that end in coming.

[SPEAKER_00]: It totally surprised me moments before the reveal.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, ah, wait a minute.

[SPEAKER_00]: But throughout the episode, I did kind of notice that Spock was acting far more detached and emotionless than usual.

[SPEAKER_00]: There was something Lawn said and he just kind of looked through her almost.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, wow, this is almost like later Spock.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is a very different Spock than what we've been seeing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't realize literally he's a very different Spock to the one we've been seeing.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, very clever of the writers, very great acting by Ethan Peck as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, like everybody in this episode plays a different version of themselves, including Ethan Peck.

[SPEAKER_00]: Even though he looks walks and talks and acts just like our spot.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's that's well put and and I think that they use it was it the transporter codes for for the individuals to kind of create the patterns.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, because they're the highest resolution.

[SPEAKER_00]: The computer won't have to make up people from scratch.

[SPEAKER_00]: Presumably they'd all look kind of waxy and weird and have extra fingers of the computer just right.

[SPEAKER_00]: So [SPEAKER_01]: To kind of bring this into the solution itself, I mean, this really reminds me of a lot of my interactions with AI, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: The solution itself appears to be something of a moving target, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And as it settles itself on Spock, at least from a first watch, it does feel like it's a moving target, like it really could have initially chosen someone else as the killer, but as Lawn's character is [SPEAKER_01]: building a case, I think it starts like once she pulls Spock in, I think that's when it decides it's him, but I think before that it had a different plan in mind, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's something that I see with AI that AI can do predictive things, it can kind of know its audience a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a game why I think we need to be [SPEAKER_01]: quite aware of our interactions, like I have a friend who has a friend who is talking to me recently about a friend of hers who uses AI to respond to even just the most general text messages and conversations with other people at this point, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And so talking about kind of like waxy and having extra fingers and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the spark we get in this holiday program is very uncanny.

[SPEAKER_01]: And once on detects that that uncanniness becomes unreal, like you're like, oh my goodness, this isn't him.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, if you're watching this a second time, [SPEAKER_01]: you're getting to see that uncannyness play out a little bit more directly.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I want to watch this episode again.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to see that that portrait a little more, more kind of a bunk bunk on the head-ish as we kind of get forward.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's funny and subtle, but really well done.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's good writing, that's good direction.

[SPEAKER_00]: All of that, which you need for a good word or mystery plot as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think Jonathan Freaks really got to stretch himself here for as as silly in whatever is it looks like there's a lot of his craft that goes into this that is brilliant to watch play out and so back into kind of commentary like we want to talk about how the holiday kind of comes out of the gate being wildly problematic I guess you could say [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love that this episode kind of gets away with using all of these tropes again because it's the first time, which is like it kind of you get to the next generation and by season seven, you know, they're trapped in the holiday again and all this stuff is happening and you're like, how are they still using this?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like this doesn't make any sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is almost the first episode where these tropes all make sense because they're pushing it to its limits.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're trying to see what it can do.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're trying to find the the rough spots to to work them out.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, we get the holedic safeties go offline.

[SPEAKER_00]: We get the you're trapped in the holedic.

[SPEAKER_00]: We get that you can't communicate in and out of the holedic.

[SPEAKER_00]: All of these things, but because they all crop up, they're recommending that nope.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll shelve this technology.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not good for use on star ships.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure they'll bring it back in about a hundred years and they'll have ironed out all the bugs by then.

[SPEAKER_00]: What are the engineers at Starfleet doing in this time?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like they just like, oh, here's the sold technology.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's bring it back.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there's this report appended to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't ignore that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess maybe that that again has a lot to say about our relationship to technology as recreation, that getting trapped in it is something that can always happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think about back when you and I were playing video games as kids, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: People were like, oh, it's going to ruin your life.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to dominate your attention and it did.

[SPEAKER_01]: I had a friend who didn't complete high school because he got stuck playing chrono trigger on the super Nintendo.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's all he did.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's all he did.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, much love to him.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't he listens to this podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, he would eventually get his education and get things figured out.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, getting trapped in the technology that we have as recreation is not a new thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Star Trek has been talking about this for a very long time.

[SPEAKER_01]: What I like about this is they're now really kind of pulling in wordage that we use around artificial intelligence.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think they said like inputs or or some prompt prompt prompt.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which which is funny because that's what Jordi was giving the holiday in elementary to your data, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Was actually a prompt and they mentioned AI and a bunch of stuff in this episode and coaching it in the language of that that we used today.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that was very clever.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was a wise decision and I think it also does a fantastic job again as Star Trek will to mirror how we use technology today and and give us that ability to kind of think a little bit about how we use technology as either a tool or a crutch and how much it can become a trap if we're not careful and we can get stuck in this artificial realm, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm hopeful for to some degree is maybe strange new worlds has what it takes to kind of approach social media in the future as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they've I think they've taken a really strong dive at at at artificial intelligence, but like maybe using the holiday [SPEAKER_01]: as a medium for social media, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: As a medium for maybe talking to someone far away, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I've often in my own headcan and in Star Trek stories I've created for myself, you know, imagine having a board meeting with a bunch of people who aren't on the same starship, but you go into the holiday, consider the desk next to a person who's being projected, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, through a subspace transmission.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's a great crossover series of novels, Star Trek Gateways, and it uses the Aconian Gateways as this crisis.

[SPEAKER_00]: And all of the twenty-fourth century books basically start with the same scene, which is that like a holographic conference room where there's the crew of TNG and DS-nine, and all of these and the admirals are giving them their briefing and stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's good, I like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, that could also have its effects in other ways, like imagine people who are in long-distance relationships getting to actually be quote-unquote face-to-face, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Where's the line?

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, again, really, really cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think that's everything about sort of the details of the holiday, is it?

[SPEAKER_01]: There's some other kind of fun facts.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's one last thing I wanted to bring up with the holiday, and that's what I feel might be a little bit of a nod to Star Trek Voyager because they did this thing in, I think, the second episode where they're cut off from the Federation, they're far from home, they have energy problems and food rationing problems, but they still want to have their holiday episodes, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: They talk about using the energy for the holodec to power the ship and they're like, oh, we can't do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a totally separated isolated system incompatible, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Which was silly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's like, that sounds silly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why we just want to have our holodec episodes.

[SPEAKER_00]: But in this episode, Scottie says, oh, we don't have to shelve the project.

[SPEAKER_00]: He just recommends a dedicated server room for the holodec and have it isolated from the rest of the ship system, so it doesn't affect them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, wait a minute.

[SPEAKER_00]: That actually based on what happened in this episode that actually kind of makes sense and like retroactively made that thing avoid your kind of make a bit more sense So nice little nod to Voyager and kind of cleaning up a little weird bit of their continuity I think [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I would be, I mean, I'm a bit of a broken record, but in this, the writers really do show how much they are drawing from source material, how much homework they're doing on Star Trek itself and how very much it's apparent to me that we've got some fans writing writing for Star Trek right now because to pick those little pieces out, you've got to actually like what you're talking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's funny how the actors portrayed in the last frontier.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can tell they don't care about Star Trek.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can tell they don't really care.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even the writers, the writer, T.K.

[SPEAKER_01]: Bellows himself doesn't really care care.

[SPEAKER_01]: He cares about making money.

[SPEAKER_01]: He cares about his credits.

[SPEAKER_01]: He cares about those things.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, that's kind of where I want to land here before we get into kind of the final pieces here of of Star Trek comes from selling color television and and you know that kind of hollow [SPEAKER_01]: Jack Assie aspect of of of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, [SPEAKER_00]: Not a bad thing that's how you get by in the society we've set up, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: The fact that it launched this franchise, which again, still exists to make money.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is why Star Trek exists.

[SPEAKER_00]: We have to just accept that, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: But in this episode, Celia rose Gooding's character, you get a glimpse of what that inspired.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I think later in his life, Gene Roddenberry very much became that idealist, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That head and the clouds that we would say, the [SPEAKER_00]: you know no longer the dollar science necessarily in his eyes but the stars in his eyes right where where he very much was like oh this this I'm embracing this star trek as a model for the future thing and becoming a futurist and stuff [SPEAKER_00]: And the start of it was the passionate fans in the nineteen sixties who wrote millions of letters to stop it getting cancelled the one time and millions of letters that couldn't stop it getting cancelled the next time right.

[SPEAKER_00]: These these people that then went on to pass this this legacy on to future generations of of this idealism of star trek.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this episode, I mentioned earlier, it rides this knife-ed, this knife's edge, and it tells both sides of that story in very subtle and very cool ways, I think.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, ultimately, love letter to Star Trek in my eyes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Easily, and it's a nuanced love letter in that way.

[SPEAKER_01]: because I think by being irreverent, by having these shallow characters doing shallow things and whatnot, it sort of shows that an idealistic vision doesn't always come from pure intentions.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it does, it's going to have its lumps and its bumps and its scars and all of these sorts of things.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know I've been I've been critical of the writers of recent newer trek and stuff like that this really turned me around in a lot of ways because I really felt like I got a love letter from them as well because of the time they took like they wrote this right there's even some there's even some some internal conversation about being a writer but I think [SPEAKER_01]: I got from them a help we're trapped in the writing room kind of feel from from this episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I really feel like they were kind of semi breaching the wall, you know, kind of like in interstellar, you see those kind of translucent fingers move through.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, I'm using a very oblique reference here, but I really do feel like we were spoken to by the writers in this, and shall I just say kind of simply.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the one little bit that is more of a silly thing, but I always clock when writers are talking about writers in the writing as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: My favorite line by T.K.

[SPEAKER_00]: Bellos.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm a writer.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm never happy about anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I'm getting at is is [SPEAKER_01]: They're constantly up against the bottom line.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you say, this is to make money.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, the reason why we're getting these truncated seasons with tinier, tinier, you know, episode arcs with the way streaming has changed the way we watch television and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the writers are having to be at the front line of all this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not trying to say like, oh, pity the poor writers, like they're making the money and they can take it in any direction they really want to.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in this, I see the writers actually trying to kind of reach out to us a little bit and say, like, hey, we're doing our best.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're doing what we can.

[SPEAKER_01]: Here's a love letter to the Star Trek fandom from fans of Star Trek.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's really turned me around.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess is basically what I can say about all this is [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've had my skepticism.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like there's been some herki jerky starts to this new iteration of trek.

[SPEAKER_01]: I worry to some degree that we're heading into a bit of a twilight period of of star trek to some degree just due to the fact that it's not making the money that it's supposed to and no amount of letters and independent fan-based media will keep it going because we're just not a big enough population and we're not rich.

[SPEAKER_01]: So [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's not gonna happen, but I feel like episodes like this really do make a fan like me feel seen, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's why I enjoyed this episode so much.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like I was alluding to at the beginning, I worry about a certain segment of fandom that in my head might turn it off after the first ten minutes and be like, this is making fun of something I love and how dare you and this is not my father's star trek, I'm done.

[SPEAKER_00]: Watch this episode to the end.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it really, it starts out with what you might interpret like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But by the end, it is absolutely a love letter to Star Trek.

[SPEAKER_02]: For sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's up there with Galaxy Quest for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: In terms of irreverent takes on the franchise I love.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll die on that hill.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was well put together.

[SPEAKER_01]: This episode was a masterpiece.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, should we end with our little take out the dead round, the little...

Yeah, that's of minutia for the episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what do you got from me, Dan?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so first of all, the quiz are visuals at the start of the episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we're gorgeous.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they follow directly on from the opening credits to the last front here.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think they just, like, let's put a little extra Jewish on this to make it like, this is what, twenty-first century graphics look.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: We get an official crew complement of the enterprise is two hundred and three which, you know, is less than half of what it is during Kirk's era.

[SPEAKER_00]: So a little bit of an explanation is to why Pike gets those huge quarters, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, you know, we've talked a bit about the busy hallways and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like I feel like this iteration of the enterprise does have some suitably busy hallways.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would say like next generation level, business, but you know, not that same bussel that we get in the nineteen sixties, TOS.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, did you ever see the, somebody did a video on like the volume of the enterprise D and the number of people in it?

[SPEAKER_00]: And they basically were saying like you, you will probably walk for a couple days before encountering another person.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's how if you take the entire usable area.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, of course, most of the quarters are going to be in the saucer section and stuff, but even that, like it's very sparsely populated.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it would be a considering the group complement and then the size of the ship you're right.

[SPEAKER_01]: That would have been a pretty empty carpeted hallway hotel in space.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I like that we get a number now.

[SPEAKER_01]: So anytime we lose a character or something, we can now keep count everybody.

[SPEAKER_00]: I wonder if it'll be as inconsistent as Voyager.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it won't be as inconsistent as the the decks on Nemesis.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure, but Star Trek and Numbers man, they just have a problem with them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why they didn't pick two hundred and forty seven personally, but whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I tell you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Last little thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Spock is now canonically related to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

[SPEAKER_00]: He says as my ancestors Sir Arthur Conan Doyle said blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Which of course, Star Trek VI, the undiscovered country, he has that line, an ancestor of mine maintained that once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth, which was a Sherlock Holmes line, which has been interpreted to say that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was a member of Spock's ancestry, and now we get it confirmed.

[SPEAKER_00]: Bravo, strange new worlds, thank you for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that explains Spock's photographic memory.

[SPEAKER_01]: there you go yeah because sir Arthur Conan Doyle interesting fun fact when I lived in London I went down to Baker Street and saw the statue of Sherlock Holmes a friend of mine was like can you imagine Sherlock Holmes walked these streets and like I can imagine it I was like I had to [SPEAKER_01]: the politely explained that there was no actual and that that was a that was an awkward conversation but hey it happens I've been I've been wrong before many times I've probably been wrong a few times in this episode so it's all good um illusion shattered smash yeah but the cool part is [SPEAKER_01]: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, actually when Sherlock and Watson are running through the streets of London, he's actually using his photographic memory of Edinburgh, where he was originally from, and you can actually follow [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever streets still remain obviously Edinburgh has been you know rebuilt in certain spots and spaces that you can't actually fully do it anymore But yeah, you can actually go from place to place as Homes and Watson are going from place to place, but you have to go to Edinburgh to actually do it [SPEAKER_01]: And similar thing with James Joyce and Dubliners when he was in Switzerland writing that people will actually read Bloomsday in that book and actually walk the streets of Dublin with a novel and literally follow where they're going and that actually dear listener and dear viewer don't do that because Muggers and Dublin will see people looking at novels and traveling the streets and they'll go oh it's a foreigner I'm gonna get him so don't actually do that it's a recipe for getting mugged [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, fun.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, for the full tourist experience, maybe, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I would just end off.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't really have too many, too many, like, total bits and bobs.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I kind of mentioned some of the minutia that I enjoyed about the set design, the nineteen sixties slash fifties set design that existed.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think just what this episode does is it kind of unties the, unties the tie and gets a little casual.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what I really love in the end is as we're joking, as we're kind of having this fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like the lenient of being like, we love you.

[SPEAKER_01]: we really really love you and and that's the that's the feel that's the the feel good aspect of all this and it literally ends with the kiss what a what a great what a great episode absolutely so i think that's pretty much all we have to say about that i guess channeling another fictional nineteen sixties character forced gump [SPEAKER_01]: But we can keep this conversation going and I am a little bit more on Facebook and I have actually done some liking on our positively-track discussion group.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like a big foot sighting.

[SPEAKER_01]: So definitely folks pop on there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how much longer I'm going to keep my Facebook profile but I may [SPEAKER_01]: create just a Star Trek centric Facebook profile specifically for the discussion group.

[SPEAKER_01]: I find Facebook insufferable, but in a sense of the way I find the holiday problematic too, so there's actually quite a lot of connections there.

[SPEAKER_01]: So definitely check us out on our discussion page.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can also contact us via Gmail as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: But just like this episode, all we have to say is a state positive folks.

[SPEAKER_00]: Positively Trek is produced and edited by me, Dan Gunther, and co-produced by Barry DeFord on Treaty Eight Territory, the home of the Beaver, Cree, Dene, and Mati people whose histories, languages, and cultures we respect.

[SPEAKER_00]: We acknowledge the many first nations, Mati, and Inuit, who have lived in and cared for these lands for generations.

[SPEAKER_02]: See you.