every single story I've heard, even the ones that look like people, just kind of went viral or whatever.

You know, if you look at Billie Eilish or you look at some of these other, artists and so on, there was someone involved who heard them early on who is connected, you know, in the industry.

That's Chris SD, producer, engineer, songwriter, and the founder of Singer Songwriter.

He spent years working directly with the people who actually decide what music makes it into film, television and commercials.

I've worked with songwriters who've ended up in Billboard magazine, had festivals calling them their Spotify spins, went off the charts.

He breaks down how sync licensing really works today, why relationships matter more than ever, and how independent artists are using placements to build careers without labels or gatekeepers.

You can get paid thousands of dollars for one sync fee.

I got an artist $30,000 for one placement in a show, Today, Chris shows why one smart placement can outperform years of chasing streams and what actually moves the needle when real money is on the line.

Stick around.

I'm Bobby Oshinsky and this is the Inner Circle podcast.

For people who don't know what a music supervisor does, can you explain what what goes on?

What do they do?

Yeah, absolutely.

Bobby.

So first off, a music supervisor is someone who is hired by movie studios, TV studios, ad agencies to go and find music because the directors and the producers are often way too busy trying to, you know, get the scripts organized, do the actual shooting in the locations that they're handling the whole, like, visual aspect of it.

And so they need somebody to handle the music part of it.

So they hire music supervisors to go out and do that.

And those are the people I typically deal with in the industry.

And I don't go through agents or libraries because those tend to be dead ends for, indie songwriters, because, I mean, everybody's in them.

You're playing a lottery.

There's a your needle in a haystack.

So, I'm always trying to connect indie songwriters directly to these music supervisors because they're the ones who are actually putting the music into the productions.

So music supervisors really like using indie music, don't they?

Yeah, yeah.

No, they they they love it for two reasons.

So the first and most like obvious one is any music is way cheaper than major label stuff.

Right.

Because they would love to, you know, place, big artists, major label artists, you know, famous songs and stuff like that.

But it's a crazy amount of money, you know, I heard, I don't know if I have the figures exactly right, but it's super close, I'm sure was that Mad Men spent $250,000 in somewhere around two, 2011, in one of their episodes, for one placement on a Beatles song, $250,000 to just do one placement.

Now, that blew the budget.

They can't keep doing that, obviously.

So, indie music, that's exactly where indie music comes in.

And the second reason, music supervisors love dealing with indie music is they love actually it.

Singer songwriter.

They love connecting and meeting the actual songwriters because you have to think about like they're just like you and I.

It's a it's a job for them.

And some of them, some of them have said before they'd much rather, you know, put money in the pocket of an indie artist and meet that creator, then go to the faceless libraries, you know.

So that's that's the other reason.

I tell a story.

Well, actually, I sent an email out to my list, and introducing you and your panel that, I had, a song on Baywatch, which is the number one show 30 years ago.

Yeah, yeah.

Great.

And the story went.

It wasn't that great a song, but my songwriting partner knew the music supervisor for Baywatch, so we got kind of a leg up on everybody to get to have our music be heard.

And that's kind of the secret sauce, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, it's all about who you know.

You know, as much as people like to kind of, you know, with a lot of indie songwriters and musicians like to think that, you know, I think I write great music.

I just need to get it out in the world.

And people will discover it, you know?

And I'm sure it happens like it.

It must happen here and there.

But every single story I've heard, even the ones that look like people, just kind of went viral or whatever.

You know, if you look at Billie Eilish or you look at some of these other, artists and so on, they were, you know, there was someone involved who heard them early on who is connected, you know, in the industry.

So to have success and sync licensing, you really have to know the people who are actually doing it, you know, because if you don't, you have to remember that everybody has an album out.

You know, there's millions and millions of song, 100,000 tracks get uploaded to Spotify every single day, not week, month, but every day.

So, you know, how do you ever, are you ever going to be heard?

Right.

So you have to have connections.

You've got to be able to connect with the right people and TV and film to, to make that happen.

And that's what I that's exactly what I do.

But if someone would send tracks, they find out who music supervisor is and they send them in and unsolicited, I guess that would be just like a sending in unsolicited to a record label or.

And your chances of success are fairly low, right?

Yeah, yeah.

No, that's exactly.

You can't just pick the phone up or send a cold email to a supervisor and expect to get a response.

You know, it's exactly this.

You were just saying it's it's like sending, you know, your demo to a major label like today and and expecting somebody to listen to it, you know, they're they're like in the nated with music.

Right.

They can't possibly do that.

And the same with supervised hours and phrase that I coined a while ago, music supervisors are the new and r, you know, they're kind of like they don't they're unwitting A&R.

They don't know that they're they're doing this, but they're breaking so many bands these days.

Because if you think about you get on a show in front of like, say, 4 million people, if it's a big show, you know, think of even if a fraction of those people are Shazam, you were googling to find out who that song is.

You got a massive, huge boost in your fan base.

I've worked with songwriters who've ended up in Billboard magazine, had festivals calling them their Spotify spins, went off the charts.

You know, it's just it's, it is the last bastion of, you know, huge exposure that you used to be able to get with labels.

And those are kind of gone now, but it's the last way that you can do that instead of just sitting online working on social or, you know, trying to get a viral video going or touring and things like that.

So it's a fantastic way to get exposure.

What is the quality level that a music supervisor would expect?

Yeah, so a lot of songwriters think that it's got to sound like you know, the latest biggest fill in the blank hit on the radio and it really doesn't You have to be above the bar for sure in terms of the production has got to be above the bar You know, you've got to sound like everything else getting into TV and film So it's like, you know, it's not bad production that will that will never work You've got to have good production but it's essentially in the end you don't have to sound like the latest Adele record you know, you just have to get your your record out.

Good track.

Like a good way of doing that is pick like your heroes and music that you really like.

And it doesn't all have to be like the best producer stuff, but it's got to be, you know, known music and stuff.

Put them in a playlist, throw your song or your track or tracks or whatever into the same playlist, put it on random, and then go do something that's like that.

You're not focused on the music, you're sort of listening to it, you know, walking or cutting carrots for dinner or whatever, and then just hit play.

And every time one of your tracks comes along, Gage how you feel about it, the production, you know, Gage how you feel like, did it drop in energy?

Are the vocals kind of small and, you know, the drums sort of tinny sounding, or is it like just glide by and you're like, whoa, I, I fit right in there, you know?

And that's a really good quick gauge of how your production is for TV and film.

You don't have to be better than everybody.

You just have to be above the bar.

Does it have to be a song with the vocal or can it be instrumental?

So ideally you want both.

If you don't have both, the one with the vocals, the best way to go, but to having an instrumental only track is great because they love cutting between them, right?

They love cutting between.

So for example, you could imagine a scene where, I don't know, a couples in a park somewhere and they're having a discussion and your song is on underneath the dialog, right?

Just the instrumental.

There's no no vocal there because the vocal would get in the way of the dialog of the actors.

So you've got, you know, your music's playing and then they have their conversation and the conversation ends.

One of them walks away.

There's sort of a shot, you know, maybe coming out or something.

A drone shot, and it shows one person walking away and one person sitting on a park bench or something, and then your vocal kicks in, you know, and carries the message about what?

What is just happened.

And that is the beauty of being able to cut music seamlessly together and create this thing that never interferes with, with the dialog or the particular scenes that are happening.

Some of my favorite music is quirky and, and that it doesn't fit into what we consider the popular norm.

Is that a problem when you're pitching music?

No, not at all.

There's a home for pretty much every song, whether you write Tibetan throat singing or show tunes or like, you know, two of two artists that I work with, I help them get music into the biggest movie movie of the year.

Nora Ryder won five Oscars.

And guess what?

The genres were jazz.

All right, little out there, but, Russian hip hop.

Yeah.

So you can write pretty much anything, any anything that you write.

An important thing to remember is a lot of people think you need to write for saying, you know, you need to listen to what's going on and sort of think like, oh, what's going to fit in there?

And I need to kind of write exactly what that is.

That couldn't be further from the truth, because music supervisor want authenticity They want real music you know stuff that sounds like it's from the heart and soul to really move the audience who are watching the show movie or the ad So the best thing for you to do is write as an artist, right?

Stick to your genius So like write the things that you love to write And if you focus on all the things that you normally do right as an artist and then take your music and then target it to the things that are looking for your kind of music so you're doing the reverse.

You're not looking at productions and saying, what do I need to write to get into those productions?

You're writing your music first and then you're saying, what productions does my music fit in?

And you're going to have a much better chance, you know, now there's certain producers who are really prolific and really good at, you know, writing for sync that exists, but it's a tiny minority most by far of the indie music that gets into TV and film is from songwriters, you know, like one of the ones who got into a Nora lives in a small town outside of Ottawa.

You know, it doesn't matter how old you are, where you live, where you come from, what what genre of music you write, it all comes down to the song.

One of the things I always found with professionals, professional songwriters, is that their output after a while becomes very homogenized, a manufactured sounding as compared to an artist who is writing from the heart, from the soul and just, you know, whatever, whatever comes is what comes.

And I've found that attractive.

And it sounds like music, soup, stew to.

Absolutely.

I mean, that's what it all comes down to.

There's been a huge, you know, a worry, panic, maybe even about.

I write amongst about songwriters like, oh, my gosh, we're going to be taken over and, you know, everyone's going to use AI.

So there's two important things to remember about that.

Three actually.

The first is that AI is still a toy It's not there yet It's it's really on a doesn't awesome trick You know it can really be impressive with what it can do but it's just not good at creating emotion you know can create good and cool melodies and interesting production ideas and stuff But as a whole it's just not there Now somebody could argue and say, well, wait a minute, are some that have ended up on Billboard and like they've actually charted and all that stuff.

Pretty much all of those are being run by producers.

You know, they're not like grandma sort of typing in like make me a new Coldplay song that's current, you know, it's literally producers like getting really like in there instead of using like Midi and samples or using like I, you know, to do that.

And that might be the wave of the future.

That's a possibility, but it's not there yet.

Second thing is, it's really important to remember is that you can't legally place a an AI song in TV and film right now because the legislation isn't there.

It might come around where you're allowed to do it, but you have to own the copyright for any track that you put into TV and film.

So as much as the AI companies say, like, hey, you know, if you use our services, you, you're basically you own the copyright, you own everything that that you create here.

The Copyright Office doesn't buy it, right?

They haven't gone there yet.

So if you haven't written the melody and you haven't written the lyrics yourself, then you you can't you don't own the copyright.

And then no music supervisor can legally place your song.

Now you can use AI as a tool.

You can help it write your songs, you can help it come up with melodic ideas.

But you, you know, you end up in court at some point and they look back on your prompt history or whatever, that's going to be the deciding factor.

So that's a really quick way to blacklist yourself, is trying to pass off a purely AI produce song, to TV and film.

And then the third and last thing to remember is that AI is a technology we have.

Humanity has surf the wave of technology since the inception, you know, from fire to spears to, you know, it's all that was all technology, right?

Things that we used that we could extend our will with through material, other material means.

And, you know, if you remember back, even orchestras were cutting edge at the time, like they were, you know, violas and violins and like, you know, writing for that was like a starship enterprise, you know, I mean, to go to one of these things was super high tech at the time.

So we've always dealt with technology, let alone drum machines, which they thought were going to wipe out drummers in the 80s, which, which it didn't autotune, which they thought, oh, that anyone can sing now.

And that's going to like just kill, say, singers and never did it.

Now we have AI, right?

There's going to be certain things AI does well and other things that it that it doesn't and even even in a case of where I say it can get to a point years down the road of being able to do everything better than humans, don't forget, like, I like to use the chess roll as an example, the chess world, computer has been able to beat a human, any grandmaster, any human on the planet, handily.

Right.

A computer could just beat everybody.

Chess is doing fine.

People go to chess, people watch chess.

There's headlines about chess.

There's humans playing humans and people aren't like, well, I guess chess is dead now.

You know, people are always going to want to go see players play live.

Right?

In music, people are always going to want to, hear records made by real people.

And that is the important part.

Humans have always been good at that, pushing back on things like that.

And so yeah, there's little to worry about with AI.

There's a lot of change.

But, you know, like every technology, there always has been.

of the frustrating things about AI, if we're talking about music generation now, or it could be video generation as well.

So you asked to come up with something and it does.

And you'll say, oh, that's pretty good, but can you just change this?

Keep everything else but change this.

And it doesn't.

It goes back and it rewrites everything and changes though I know, I know.

And it's like, oh, by the time you get something that you like, it's like, well, I could have done this myself from scratch and it would have been faster and better.

Man.

I tried to make graphics for some things, and it was that just hitting my head on the wall.

It was like, no, keep it like I'm re uploading the one.

That's great, except for this part.

Do that again, but just change this part.

No problem.

Completely different.

Yeah, it's like, how about, stems or stems required?

No, stems are not required.

Just a quick clarity thing.

Bobby.

You and I know what stems are in the sync industry.

People know it.

Stems are.

There's been a bit of, a adoption, word that people you have used stems for different things.

So sometimes people use stems as the multitrack meaning like if you have a drum kit, people call that like the snare mic and the tom mix and the overheads stems.

Right.

Those are not stems.

Those are that's a multitrack, right.

Or they're tracks.

The stems are in the TV and film business sub mixes of various components of your mix.

So like your drums would all be subject to a stereo track, your background vocals to another stereo track, the rhythm guitars to another stereo track.

And the reason for that is that when an editor in a, in a movie or something wants to make a change to your song, all they've got to do is move one fader.

They just have to like, oh, I just want to turn the drums up.

They can do that and they just want to turn that up.

They're not making big, huge changes.

They just kind of want to jack something a little bit.

And if it distorts the mix a little bit, they can quickly throw like a, you know, if the symbols pop out, all of a sudden they can just EQ a little bit or do something very fast, but they can't.

They don't have time to remix your whole song.

So that's those are stems.

Now, stems are good to have but mainly good to have access to.

They're rarely asked for.

Mainly all you need is just your master.

Like it's literally the, the the track that you the story, the file that you end up with after your mastering, the one you're going to release.

That's what Ed usually ends up in TV and film.

Let's go to, our song pitch, because that's where you show people how they can get their music, how they can get to music supervisors, which therefore gets their their music into film and television.

So tell me more about the program.

Sure.

So the art of the song pitch is honestly the ultimate goal of it is to connect with music supervisors.

It's to connect any songwriters with real supervisors face to face.

Everything you learn in on the song pitch is the runway to that.

So the art of the song pitch is not like a course, you know?

It's not like, oh, I'm going to learn about, sync licensing.

Yeah, I love learning.

People should learn, but I tend to be more of a results kind of person.

I'm not like, you know, there's a time for learning and a time for you know, improving our craft and all that.

But there's also a time for doing, you know, to make things happen.

Life's short.

You got to just get to it.

So the art of the song pitch is, I teach people everything they need to know about the sync industry for an indie songwriter and nothing more.

I'm not trying to turn you into an entertainment lawyer, but you learn every little aspect that it's going to concern you.

And it's not complicated.

It's not rocket science.

And then at the end, you're certified.

You're like, you're you're ready for me to introduce you to music supervisors.

They're going to trust you now because they know that you went through the program.

So that's the key.

It's you're not just showing up and saying, you know, oh, I got a song and I have a moment with a supervisor and it's a make or break, whether they take it or not.

No, it's about relationships.

It's about meeting them and developing relationships for the long term for them to trust you to.

So when you people might say trust, what do you mean, I'm trustworthy?

Yeah.

But there's been so many cases of, you know, any songwriters, you know, they have illegal samples in the track and they don't happen to mention it because they didn't think it was, or somebody comes out of the woodwork, you know, says, oh, I was in the room when the song was being written.

And, I know it's in the movie now, but I, I'm, we're going to court over it.

All kinds of crazy nightmare stuff.

Music supervisors that need to be not happen, you know, and that's the art of the song pitch.

It shows you all the different things about how to target your music correctly, how to connect to the right supervisors for your particular music.

There's a writing component in there for sync, production component for sync licensing.

So there's like, how to vet your music, like, make sure that you're picking the right songs.

And then, of course, how to pitch your music, like how to actually connect when you do connect with the supervisors, how to approach them.

It's not like selling a car or anything like that, you know, it's it's more about, what they're looking for.

How to come across the important things.

You need to let them know, and, all that kind of stuff.

So.

Okay, what would be a, For want of a better term, an inappropriate approach that.

Well, I take or, you know, an approach that's inconsequential.

So, I mean, the bottom line is that you want to give music supervisors what they're looking for when they're looking for it.

That's the key.

You also want to establish that you're a dependable and reliable partner for them.

So they come back to you because it's so much easier.

Like I said, they're humans like us.

So they, you know, they just want to make things as easy as possible in their life, like we all do, right?

We don't want to work any harder than we have to, to, to get the job done.

We we want results no matter what it takes to get them.

And we all work hard towards the results.

We don't want to work more than we have to.

And supervisors are the same way.

They're hardworking.

They look for music, the perfect tracks for this.

But they know that you, you know.

Right.

Great.

You know, indie pop or whatever, and they already placed you or something.

They're going to go back to you.

You know, they're going to be like, well, what else you got?

Because because you're, you're proven commodity rather than them going, look in other places like that's going to take more work.

So those are the things that you want to do, ways that, you know, you can approach them or interact with them that are not good.

A lot of times there's like for example, people will be like, hey, I think this is I've got this song and, and, and I think that'll be perfect for this place, you know, this sort of mentality of like, like, I've got the perfect thing for you before they've even heard the music, you know?

So it's not even a question of being, you know, egotistical, I guess, or something like that.

It's just this sort of assumption and eagerness that can really turn a supervisor off.

You're they're as a peer to present things to them in the, in the right way, you know, other ones are being like, you know, not dependable.

Right?

Not giving them what they're what they need when they want it and stuff like that.

You're like, oh, I, I can get that to you.

Or bringing some subpar, music to them.

You know, there's a bunch of, like, things about how that approach works.

But the biggest challenge, the biggest challenge before all of that is you got to connect with them first.

That's the hugest that's the biggest challenge everyone's got.

Like, how do you actually connect with the right people, you know?

And so that's the main part of the art of the song.

Pitch is like providing any songwriters that path so they can get face to face with the movers and shakers at the top.

So they keep all the money.

They they avoid the middlemen, right?

The, the libraries and the agents because they take half your money.

But more importantly, you're just a needle in the haystack because there's just one or the agent and they got a bunch of songs right from a bunch of people besides you.

Right?

Big libraries have millions of songs.

So you're just, you know, you're just a number, a track number, and that's not the way to have success.

You want to be able to be a go to person for the music supervisors.

I know they work hard because, every time I've had to look for music, for an underscore, for for a video or something, you pull your hair out, it's like, okay, well, this work, well, this work, and you're listening, you're listening, you're listening.

And after a while, you're doubting yourself.

Okay, I heard this back, you know, an hour ago.

And I'm thinking to myself, if you had to do that all day, I'm sure you get good at it.

And you zero in on on things, and, you know, you can focus better, but nonetheless, you're listening a lot, and I.

I could see just how you're talking where if you're a reliable partner or someone knows, well, I'll probably get something I need from this person.

That exactly would just move the process along so much faster.

Yeah.

I mean, that's that that is just a huge part of it is like just being, a good partner for them.

You know, and to get there and to and to do that, it, it comes down to just exactly how you and I might shop for a new mattress, you know, or, you know, a new mechanic or a new dentist or whatever.

Those are like, you know, we go to Yelp and we go to all these other things trying to figure out, like, who's the better, you know, quality or whatever of that, who's dependable.

And then when we go there and we have a good experience.

Wow.

Great.

We now, you know, I'm I was going to go back to that person and then we get to know them.

You know, like I know my motorcycle mechanic more and more every time I go over and we chat about all kinds of different stuff, it's exactly the same thing.

You're going to start out just being from a music supervisor's point of view, of being a dependable person that they can go back to.

It all starts with the songs.

It all starts with the music.

You can't start talking about each other's cats, you know, until because the music is the most important part.

But then that personal relationship comes later.

But that doesn't.

So there's no confusion.

But I talk about relationships with with, supervisors.

I don't mean you got to be, like, likable.

I mean, hopefully all we're all, you know, likable to a degree, but you don't have to work on them really, really liking you as a person and all that.

I mean, that's not the challenge.

They just have to be like, whoa, you got great.

You got songs that I can use.

Like, you actually brought me stuff that I'm looking for, and let's try this one and then boom, it happens.

And then another thing happens and then another thing happens.

And then they know you like, you know they know your first name.

And then then maybe a personal relationship comes of that later.

But the bottom line in that business relationship so important, how long does it take to go through or a song pitch.

So it's a six month program.

So essentially, you know, we go every two weeks a modules released.

I take people by the hand on there for coaching calls.

There's music supervisors in the program.

We bring like a lawyer in we bring all these different people in that are important for songwriters to, you know, understand what they need to know.

Well, I don't pack it full of like, content, quote unquote, you know, so many courses and things have where you just, like, feel overwhelmed, you know, with things, I've tried to keep it as lean and mean as possible to teach in a such a, an easy way about how this whole thing works.

And then, at the end of the program, that's when they introduce everybody in the onto the song pitch to music supervisors live face to face.

Because they have to go through it, though.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Because like I said before, is that, you know, I can't bring people to music supervisors who haven't been trained, you know, that that's the trust factor.

Again, supervisors rely on me to do that, to teach people the right way of doing things so that when the suits meet them, then they're like, okay, you're proven commodity, I get it.

You've been through Chris's training and and now I can trust you.

And that's super, super important.

There's so much competition in this these days and that everybody wants this revenue.

Everybody wants to have their their song in television or film for all the reasons that you outlined before.

But this seems like it's a fast way to jump the line, so to speak.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, it really comes down.

It's very simple.

It just sort of comes down to like asking yourself, how are you going to do what you want to do, right?

We all have all of us have dreams and aspirations.

And some of those dreams are strictly for entertainment, right?

We know we'll never be able to do something we might fantasize about.

Like we'll just, you know, like, think, oh, gee, it sure be great having, if I owned a bush plane and I could fly into my $5 million property up in the in the middle of kind of nowhere on a lake, and and it was just this fire, you know, fire fireside, like, I house and, you know, I mean, there's a million things that people would wish they could do, you know, or whatever.

And it could be everything from that to world peace or whatever, a lot of unattainable things, you know, or apparently unattainable.

But then we have a lot of them that are doable, right?

We have a lot of things that we want and think, I can do this or it's it's within my career or my or what I like to do or could be anything to do with relationships or whatever.

It doesn't even matter what it is, but they're within the scope of something that we say, I could do that, you know?

So that's sync licensing.

If you're sitting there thinking, not, I want to get my songs into TV and film, but I want to do something great with my music someday.

That's the key question.

And that's the only reason I got into sync licensing.

It wasn't for the money.

The money is amazing.

You can get paid thousands of dollars for one sync fee.

I got an artist $30,000 for one placement in a show, so the money can be incredible.

The reason I got into it was the exposure.

It was like it.

It can change everything.

There's so many songwriters I've worked with which changed their lives completely just by having been in a show 2 or 3, whatever.

And I mean, there's someone from Italy I worked with who went on a world tour based on some placements he got, you know, so that's the key is that if you want your music to get out there because music is a language it's about communicating We all want to be recognized for the songwriter that we are Then that is the key nowadays is sync Licensing is the fastest easiest way to do it if you know how to do it the right way If you don't do it the right way it's one of the hardest things possible because like you said everybody in their dogs got a record out and everybody wants to be there and there's so much competition It's like you know, a drop in the ocean of people who can do that Well, we get all kinds of sync placements, that singer songwriter.

So we're doing something right.

And that's relationships and keeping it a closed, intimate, circle.

And I only do this once a year and, just work with, you know, I can't work with everybody that wants to work with me, but I work with the people that really have that dream.

And then we go, and we make that happen.

Chris, is there anything we missed or anything that you want to add?

I guess the only thing I touched on this earlier is that, you know, there's a time for, as I was saying, there's a time for learning, there's a time for improving ourselves, and there's a time for working towards things.

You know, it's also something we can hide behind.

We.

We hide behind self-improvement, or we hide behind line work.

In a way, sometimes we think, well, I, I'm not really ready for that.

And, you know, maybe down the road and then one year turns into another year and another year and another year and in being a musician, being an artist, being a songwriter is challenging enough as it is.

You've got to seize the moment.

You know, you've got to do something while you're who you are right now.

Because life did.

You know, life just changes.

A marriage can happen.

Marriage could end, jobs could happen.

Jobs could end.

You might have to move somewhere.

Your interests might change in a way that later, later on, you know, you look back and you say, oh, man, why didn't I do something with my music?

You know, so it's about looking inward to yourself and saying, what do I really want?

You know, with my music, if it's a hobby and stuff like that, then, you know, maybe licensing not for you.

Totally, totally cool.

It's it's, you know, people do all, all kinds of different things in life.

But if you have a dream of getting your music out there and making something happen in the short life that you've got, you know, we all have, then really, really think hard about how you're going to do that.

And that's exactly the path that I've tried to provide songwriters, is to say, look, I know everything that I just said.

I understand that intimately.

I was in a band.

I was a music producer for 20 years.

I totally understand both sides of the glass.

I totally get it.

If you want to make a splash with your music you want something to happen in a big way This is the way that I've seen it happen over and over and over again And it was the hardest route to take was to go directly to the music supervisors But over the years I got this huge network and I can't wait to introduce you directly to that My friends become your friends and that's exactly where the magic happens I should end with this.

If you want to find out more about the art of the song, pitch and learn more about Christy.

You can click on the link that's in the show notes.

So just look for the link below and that will take you right there.

And you can find out everything about Chris and the order of the song pitch, and how you can connect with music supervisors.

Thanks very much, Chris.

Thank you.

Bobby.

Likewise.

Thanks so much for having me on.

Thanks for listening and being my inner circle.

Remember, if you have any questions or comments, you can send them the questions at Bobby or Centcom.

And also learn all about the latest in music, audio and production news.

And find out about openings for my latest online classes at Bobby or since Wkyc.com.

This is Bobby Oshinsky.

I will see you next time.