I don't know everything.

I can't.

There's no way for me to.

There is just too much out there.

I don't even, I don't, I don't want to call myself an expert and I hate when folks call folks other folks expert because there are no experts in the industry.

Today I'm sitting down with someone who needs no introduction in the world of cybersecurity, John Hammond.

You've probably seen his YouTube videos, his CTF challenges, or maybe you've just heard the name floating around in the community.

But what I want to gain today is how did John break in?

What's troubles did he face?

What advice does he have for people trying to land a role in cybersecurity?

And maybe most importantly, what would he have done differently if he had to start all over it again today?

This is just going to be a real conversation about his journeys, the winds along the way and the lessons learned.

And if you've ever wondered how someone like John Hammond actually got to where he is, this is an episode you're not going to want to miss.

John, welcome back to the CHANNEL.

Hey, thank you so much.

It's great to be here.

Happy to be hanging out for a bit.

Absolutely.

It's it's always a pleasure to have you.

You've got such an amazing journey and you've done so much for the community.

Every time I get on YouTube, there's something you're out there doing like just literally an hour before we recorded this, I saw you on a live stream doing some amazing work.

So.

Well, hey, very flattered.

It's always a ton of fun.

I think that's, you know, just part of it.

It's part of the passion.

It's part of the fun.

Absolutely.

Well, for maybe the few people who haven't heard about you, do you mind just giving us a quick who you are and what you do?

Totally.

Well, Hi, Hey, hello.

My name is John Hammond.

For my day job, I guess I run around over with Huntress, a company that is a managed security platform.

So think EDR, think seem solution, think security awareness training and a lot of ITDR, some of the identity threat detection response.

That's a whole lot of fun.

I'm part of their adversary tactics team, so I get to chase hackers and malware and all the stuff kind of beaten up the industry.

I've been hopefully getting to some of the defense and how can we protect against that When I can fit it in.

I try to do some other YouTube work on the side and that is just a really labor of love.

Getting more education out the door, some content, some training, some hands on keyboard and practical stuff.

You, you sound so humble.

I mean, are you up to like 2 million subscribers or something now on your channel?

I.

Guess so.

I mean, it's really awesome the amount you do to give back to the community and bring, you know, just trying to help people on the journey.

But Speaking of the journey, do you mind like taking us back to like the very beginning, like what really pulled you into tech or specifically cybersecurity?

OK, I'll do my darkness.

It is a, it is a long story.

So if I'm rambling, hey, please don't hesitate to stop me.

But if we go, if we go way back, way, way back, I think I kind of grew up like maybe any kiddo thinking, oh, I want to make video games 'cause I, I like playing video games as a kid and I want to learn how to, how to make my own.

And with that, I don't know, that was a little bit of who trying to play with Game Maker, yo-yo games back when they owned that and all Adventure Maker were some super old tools and utilities that could kind of help play with different languages and things to experiment in that world.

And then, I don't know, some point I thought, like all these Hollywood movies and media are cool for becoming a hacker.

How does someone become a hacker?

Curse of the World unite more of the cyber security and rather than the strict software development or like game development world.

And I feel like I googled at some point, I literally probably how to become a hacker and I had found an old blog post or write up an article from a gentleman, Eric S Raymond.

I think he's one of the free and open source software kind of, I don't know pioneers in that front, but he had this blog post literally titled how to become a hacker.

And the first kind of like action items were to learn some programming, learn some scripting.

And at the time it said, hey, learn Python like the Python scripting language.

They said, look, you got to learn how to be able to cut up code, be able to write some code if you want to be a hacker.

So I followed through with that.

Try to look on YouTube, really found a lot of tutorials for getting started with the Python language, just being able to practice and play with the syntax.

And that was just so much fun, so cool.

It opened up the whole world of Linux.

And I asked my dad at a young age, he, he's usually like a network engineer, kind of a sys admin style.

And he said, look, John, you want a website here, you can learn HTML and and CSS.

And he said, if you want to host the website, you're going to need a server and that's going to need to run Linux.

And you need a little, a little bit of some of the know how in that world.

So that opened the floodgates really of OK, understanding what is Linux made-up of?

What are these other languages like Python play a part in that?

And that was fun for kind of the high school days.

It wasn't until I got to college or university really, OK, an undergraduate education.

I'd attended the US Coast Guard Academy, so one of the United States like military institutions, like a West Point U.S.

military Academy or Annapolis, the Naval Academy here and there.

I found myself at the Coast Guard Academy and the Coast Guard Academy at the time did not have a computer science degree or a major program of study or even anything kind of in the cybersecurity realm.

So if we wanted to dig more into it, you kind of had to be self reliant, like going to find, go look at resources and go see how could we learn this on our own.

There was a sort of perfect storm, though that was around the same time where there was this really cool event and competition coming together with a lot of the other service academies that they called Cyber stakes.

And I didn't know at the time, I had no idea.

I didn't realize, no one told me that that was in essence a capture the flag or CTF, hey, whole game cybersecurity sport to be able to interact and get on keyboard and hack along and all these things.

And truth be told, we were the underdogs.

We we didn't really know what we were doing because we didn't have a lot of that training ahead of time because we didn't have a program of study in that world.

But then it birthed really what became the cyber team, kind of like, oh, some after school club extracurricular activity kind of thing.

But at the military institutions, you have to have a dedicated and allotted like sports period or sports time from 1600 to 1800 or like 4:00

to 6:00 PM every day.

You would go to football or you would go practice soccer.

You would you would do your sport.

And some way, somehow this all kind of got enough momentum that cybersecurity and hacking along in a bunch of different capture the flag competitions, We, we swindled whatever Admirals and generals and we told them that's a sport too.

So we got to practice every day.

We get 2 hours of time before dinner to, yeah, dive into war games, look into some these practice ranges, these online labs.

And that is really where I started to cut my teeth on all those cybersecurity things.

Learning about vulnerabilities, learning about exploits, learning what makes up all those different CTF categories.

And that is the snowball just kept rolling, you know?

That's crazy.

It's a interesting path that, you know, not a lot of people would think of getting into the industry, I think.

Was there a moment during all this?

You're like, this is what I was meant to do.

Like, this is for me, you know?

Is there something that sticks out in your mind?

Yes, and it's it's maybe a little bit silly, sorry, but you know, over at the Coast Guard Academy or any of these other sort of service academies during your first year when you're a freshman or they will either call like a plebe or swab or 4th class cadet.

You kind of have to be super militant the whole time.

You always have to stand in the position of attention.

You have to be at the center of the P way or the hallway every time you walk and you square your your corners whenever you go down the stairs or the ladder.

Well, you have to walk the absolute edge and square every single angle and turn that you'd make.

So this cyber stakes competition thing that I was kind of alluding to that was live in person.

It was with all these other service academies and we were going to make the drive or go to it, but it was like an early morning take off before Reveley or the start of the morning that oh, they play the silly trumpet to wake everyone up.

This is like at two or three in the morning.

And I remember groggy eyed still like, oh, but it instilled discipline and all to OK be regimented.

No matter.

No one's watching, no one's there to tell.

But I wanted to you square down the stairs to be able to exit the building.

And I have this very visceral memory, this very vivid thing that stuck with me for some reason because I was just so excited and so pumped to go to this event with a bunch of other cadets and midshipmen and folks in the Army, Navy, Air Force, etcetera.

It's like, I'm going to go do cybersecurity.

And it felt like doing this with these people and being a part of that community just felt like this is this is national security in its own way, that this is important.

This is what we should be doing.

And I felt like this is what I'm going to do.

This is it.

I'm going to go all in.

And cybersecurity is just, that's me, you know?

That's really cool.

And so you got into it, you know, sounds like very early on, you know, you kind of have that fire, you know, back in the high school and what happened after you started, you know, like you're there in the Coast Guard Academy.

How did you transition that into you know your your actual what you do as a living?

Super good question and I know again, it long winding story, so forgive me.

While I was there at college, university, undergraduate, Coast Guard Academy, YouTube had kind of been like a concurrent thread.

That was still something that I'd even done during the high school days and through that time period because while I was watching people and their tutorials online and on YouTube.

So I thought I could I could try.

I'll do that too.

And that had been a budding, growing seed and and flower kind of throughout that.

And I'd still try to squeeze it in while I was at the Academy.

And it didn't particularly take off or anything by any means, but it gave me kind of the outlet to learn for myself and then to try and teach other people to like prove my own understanding, mastery, knowledge, comprehension, etcetera.

So while I was there at school, at the Academy, this cyber team sport I got to, when it came around to be my senior year, I got to be, oh, the team captain or like the club president equivalent or whatever.

And I would spend a whole lot of time teaching and trying to train the underclassmen and give them new lessons, give them material, try to prepare or create the CTF challenges for them to try their hand at.

So it was this cool little feedback loop, but some stuff sort of fell away.

I got myself on the naughty list and the Coast Guard was not too happy with me.

So I I did not graduate.

And they said, hey, John, no, no, no Commission, no degree for you or you're kind of castaway off to the streets.

And then I was figuring it out.

I was feeling, how do I put my life back together now, what I thought I had on a silver platter, just kind of stripped away from hey, my own mistakes or whatever silly stuff.

But I knew that when a lot of cadets graduated and if they were to go to Coast Guard Cyber Command or some other cyber endeavor, they normally go through a training program.

This is DC3 or the Department of Defense Cyber Crime Center in their cyber training Academy.

So there was a strange opportunity when my friends that graduated went through that training program.

They got to meet and understand, interact with some of the instructors.

And turns out those instructors are looking for more instructors.

They're hiring.

So strange pivot points now, kind of a springboard I get to jump from.

Yeah.

OK.

Coast Guard Department of Homeland Security to now go teach as an instructor for my first job with the DoD and Department of Defense and teaching the other classmates and friends that I had made there, which was neat and hysterical and cool, but also very wild that, uh, my first job is a teacher.

Well, I mean, it seems like it suits you really well, and it kind of sounds like everything kind of came full circle.

You know, I hate to say everything happens for a reason, but it sounded like, you know, it really did in that scenario.

Yes, a blessing in disguise because yeah, that I think threw me into the industry and that made a whole lot of new connections that were more in the government contracting and kind of military world for a long while.

But it seems that, hey, a lot of the folks that are now doing cool and incredible things in the industry came from that background or something very, very similar.

While I was at DC3 and CTA as an instructor, I pivoted over to another agency to do some red teamwork on the keyboard.

But that it was slow moving, you know, you find a lot of government red tape here and there and we would just kind of sit around waiting for some doctrine or memo or something to kind of go through the formality in process that just never happens.

It's slow, it's slow moving.

So all I'm now shifting around trying to go uncover my career, the individuals and friends that I had made while I was in that sort of scrappy back against the wall scenario of how do I put my life in order?

One of the individuals was a gentleman named Kyle or Kyle Hansloven.

And for folks that aren't aware, that is Kyle Hansloven, like the CEO of Huntress, the one of the founders or Co founders there.

And this is way back years ago, maybe almost a decade now, where I had said in a cold DM on Twitter, like I messaged him out of the blue, said, hey, I'm one of the Coast Guard security testers.

I do this stuff on YouTube.

Would you like to take a look at some of the videos that I put out, like capture the flag tutorials, programming things.

And way back when this guy had said, like, hey, John, this is cool, man.

Hey, don't put yourself down.

I know you're in a weird transition spot, but like, you're making all the right moves.

So we had that interaction where he, I don't know, we were willing to meet in person.

He wanted to show me the Huntress office.

That was like working out of a closet in Baltimore at some point, but just made a friend, made an Internet friend.

That kind of was able to grow into the real world for a career.

Because sometime later, once Huntress had landed their next round of funding or Series A, Kyle comes back 2020 or so, and he says, hey, John, I think we can afford you now.

Do you want to come join the party at Huntress?

And I was like, absolutely, without a doubt that that sounds incredible.

And it was a whole different jumping off point from government contracting and one of that military world, but it was now for the whole rest of the world.

We said cybersecurity for all companies.

And that means more in the industry, more about for private sector stuff.

But it was so cool because everything that I had kind of learned, offensive and defensive, culminated in a sweet way to bring defense, knowing and understanding what bad actors and threat actors are up to, and then still kind of chase some of the malware, some of the stuff that they're doing.

So I'm sorry, I know I'm rambling.

No, no, no.

It it's a great story and it's I, I love hearing these stories.

But I do have a question.

So like, looking back, what do you think made you stand out among the rest of the people?

You know, because again, you, you do things that's not typical.

You know, most people in the industry haven't had the level of success I feel like you have.

Is there something that made you stand out enough where you, you, you know, for your first job, you're able to become an instructor and then be able to do what you're doing now?

I think if I were to try and pinpoint it, we, we tell everybody and you hear everyone kind of say, you know, oh, show your work, document everything that you're up to.

Whenever you're working through a a hack the box or try hack me room or whatever, share your solution, share your write up, share what you're learning.

Like make that so known.

I think something that I had done was I I had put myself out there with reckless abandoned of the mistakes that I'll make of the commands that I got wrong trying to type on the keyboard of oh, figuring out the process, falling down a rabbit hole, beating my head up against the wall and then finding figuring out the solution.

And I know I was really strange at a right time, right place kind of thing.

But I put those things out on YouTube.

So there was like video evidence of merit and competency and what I could do and how I would do it and all of those things.

So it's, you're building your resume, you're building your portfolio.

But I wanted to prove it.

And I had a catalog of not only, OK, me testing myself, but also the material that I would create for others to learn.

Like when I got to help teach some of the other cadets at the Academy, I basically had a textbook that, hey, here are the labs, here are the exercises, here's the material.

And we'd give that to when I was at DC3, like, hey, look at this work that I've done.

And I, I hope, I think that's really, you know, what, what sells an interview of like, look at all this.

Look what I could give to you.

What?

What could I bring to the table here?

100% you know, I literally earlier this week I put out a video about, you know, tips to breaking into cybersecurity and one of the tips was to document your work.

And that can be something different for every person.

You know, not every person can turn on the camera and you know, put themselves out there.

I understand that 100% it is not an easy thing to do, but if that works for you, if you enjoy that, do that.

Create a YouTube channel documenting your journey.

If you're more the keyboard warrior type and want to just start a blog, do that.

Form a newsletter.

You know, people are interested in this stuff.

You know, it can be as simple as just regularly posting your journey and your mishaps to LinkedIn.

Another thing to remember is everyone's like, I have to be perfect online.

I can't look, I can't show my flaws.

And The thing is, it is perfectly fine to show your flaws.

We are all human.

We all have to learn at some point and I think it's almost better to show not always perfect work because it shows the evolution of you learning.

And when an employer goes and looks at that, I mean, I know I'm a hiring manager at my job and the people who include LinkedIn profiles where their own personal websites and stuff and I can see their journey always really intrigues me because you kind of get an extra look into that person more than what the resume would show.

To be honest with you.

A lot of people who do that, half the time I don't even look at their resume.

I just go straight to their websites or their blog posts or I've yet to have someone include a YouTube channel.

I'm really interested to see if someone when someone does that but.

Other than you, I know several individuals who've gotten hired and gotten to where they are because of their YouTube channel, because they're documenting the journey.

Because you're not only helping yourself, let's be honest, you're not only helping yourself exceed and excel in the career field.

You don't know how many countless thousands of other peoples or in your case millions of people that you are helping along the way.

It's.

Crazy.

And it it's surreal, it's fulfilling, but I think there are a whole lot of other maybe parts or pieces of that story that are still worth maybe getting some attention on.

Like the way that I had landed at Huntress was from Pure networking.

In all reality, that's just hate.

Chatting with folks, trying to see what I could explore, dig into and meeting new people that are doing cool things and wanting to learn what I understand.

Wanting to see how how did they do what they did and then more opportunities open up and more doors open for you.

So I know people again, they'll kind of beat a dead horses.

They network network with people.

But no, genuinely, seriously, you will find new things that come your way, all thanks to the connections you make and I, I.

Can I also relate to that story?

When I started out in tech industry, you know, I had less experience than you did, you know, and I've told this story and actually again last week to put it up on my channel, but I was a bulldozer operator.

I, I had no experience.

I didn't have certifications.

And I mean, someone called me on this last week because I had, I took with the CCNA back in high school, but then ten years later I went and got into the tech industry that CCNA doesn't count no more.

It has expired.

You know what I mean?

I had an interest, I had that passion.

But the very first thing I started doing besides like going to YouTube and watching what I need to do is I started going to in person networking events, like where you can actually go and have drinks with people or talk and meet people you could, and then reaching out to people on LinkedIn or Twitter or whatever the platform is, start networking with people.

Because this is one thing I learned very early on.

And I, I, I personally, I really hate it, but it's the truth.

And I don't think it's ever gone away 'cause sometime in the tech industry, it's not necessarily what you know, it's who you know.

And those connections can really help you excel in this industry.

And you never know when you might, when they might pay off.

You know, you might meet someone and form, you know, some sort of relationship with them.

And 10 years down the road, you know, you might be ready to change the job.

And they're like, hey, I think you'd be perfect for this role.

You know, you never know when those might pay off.

So it is huge.

And I think it's important once you get into the industry, not to stop networking.

All's well because the industry is constantly evolving and changing.

You know, we're seeing it a lot with AI and things evolving with that.

And you know, it's if you have to be able to evolve with it, I guess is what I'm saying.

If I could dance with that a little bit.

I one thing I think is super important because just as you mentioned, there is so much non-stop stuff all the time.

New changes, new innovation, new evolution, new progress, new, Oh yeah, new technologies.

And I got to admit that is a little overwhelming, especially, yes, for OK, new folks that are super interested and want to dive into the scene and be part of the industry.

But even the folks in the industry are like, what the heck, there's too much stuff.

This is all the time, non-stop.

I I do want to dance a little bit of with that, just like mental health and imposter syndrome and burnouts and just fatigue.

I felt like I ran hard and fast for the start of OK career industry time and work.

And that I think did lead to, yeah, OK, where I'm at now, but where I'm at now is really, really different.

I, I am married, you know, I, I want to spend time with the family.

I want to be able to relax and take it easy.

So for the folks that are at the young age or diving in and interested and want to be a part of this thing, like you've got the opportunity, you've got the chance and time now to run hard and fast and make it awesome and make it the best that you can be.

But no, you might hit a wall or you might start to slow down a little bit just cause life gets in the way.

And that's not a bad thing, but it's something you got to, you got to keep in mind, you got to be aware of.

So stockpile and accumulate the best you can because someday there's more to it than just that hard work, that fun, that hack the blocks, etcetera.

You got a balance.

You got to find the balance.

I mean, I've hit that.

Several times in my career I've been in the industry, gosh, I don't know, 7-8 years now, which is crazy to think, but I've, I've hit that wall several times.

And there was even a point where I'm like, you know, I don't know if I want to continue doing tech.

There's more to it than that.

I was in a really toxic, working for a toxic employer at the time.

You got to balance that work life balance.

I am, I, I'm curious, like it's not talked about enough, but have you faced burnout?

I'm sure you have.

I mean, like I said, almost everyone has, you know, how, how did you deal with that?

You know, and is it something that comes back from time to time?

Some, some time ago, I feel like I made light of it.

I, I said aloud jokingly, you know, for fun, because I was still in that like cannonball mentality.

Dive in, do everything, be a sponge until the ball got too big for the cannon.

And I said, I like to eat burnout for breakfast because it's like not a, it's not a concern.

I'm just going to keep going.

And I think you, you put yourself in two different modes where sometimes you want to be that all in 1000 miles an hour, breakneck speed cannonball.

I eat burnout for breakfast.

But then there is the like, OK, I got to slow down.

I need to chill out.

I, I can't keep up with everyone else because there's so much.

And that's totally OK to take a break, take a breather.

So to answer your question, really without a doubt, yes, 1000% I, I feel the burnout.

It's normally when I'm doom scrolling on social media.

It's normally when I'm looking at Twitter and like, how are so many incredible people doing so many incredible things?

I have no chance.

I have no shot.

I can't do this anymore.

But give yourself some time to relax.

Give yourself a couple days a week, whatever it takes to recharge.

And then you'd be like, Oh yeah, this is fun.

I remember why I love doing this.

I got to keep doing it.

Yep.

No, I hit.

One of those walls this week, like Wednesday, it was just like one of those days.

I'm like, you know, I'm pretty good.

You know, I have my day job.

I come home, have dinner with the family, spend some time, and then I come out to my studio and do stuff.

And Wednesday I was just like, Nope, I'm going to bed.

Like I just want to go watch some TV just yeah, you know, just soak into the couch type of thing.

Like I don't want to do it anymore.

And then I came back at, you know, then the very next day and it's like, man, all right, time to get back at it.

I was like re energized and pumped to go again.

And that's one thing I've noticed as my career's evolved, is those burnouts start kind of happening less and you Start learning ways to manage them yourself because everyone deals with this differently, you know, and you got to figure out what works for you.

You know, in the beginning, I would go through these like month cycles where like, I would just be burned out and not want to do anything for like months on end, you know, quit posting YouTube, quit doing anything extra.

And then I would come back and run at it again.

And you start to kind of learn how to keep it going a little bit easier, I feel like.

So agreed.

But I'll admit that is totally some of that trial and error.

It's still kind of like navigating it.

I think I've done the very same.

We're like, all right, I'll go all in super hard, go crazy, have fun, and then it'll be mutts just as you mentioned of like now I need to recover and get back the motivation and ambition that I had, you know, 1.

Thing we keep coming back to is where your time actually goes in a security or IT career.

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Now back to this week's episode.

It's those silly.

Things when folks say, yo, it's a marathon, not a Sprint, life is long, you got time, blah, blah, blah.

Just, I don't know, whatever you can do to remind yourself like, hey, you're going to have the opportunities if you just keep building at them, but you can go at your own pace.

One thing I want to make sure.

We don't ignore is you mentioned, you know, the imposter syndrome side and how that can play into it because I got really hit hard with that when I went to DEFCON for the first time this year.

Just being among all these incredible people.

Like DEFCON is just such a such an event and it's totally different than any other like meet up conference I've ever attended.

There was just so many smart people there.

And man, did I kind of feel dumb to be out of percent honest.

And then I like, I was trying to keep up and like I did a couple CTFS and stuff like that.

I was like, oh, I can do this.

And then I was like, how are these people doing this?

Like, how did how can they have so much knowledge on this?

But I mean, that hits you at other points in your career, especially when you're starting out.

I think there's, at least for me, there was a lot of imposter syndrome in the beginning because I, I made a different transition.

You know, I didn't go the traditional education.

I didn't go through college.

I didn't like even have certifications when I first started out.

And for like the first year, I kept on like looking over my shoulder and theoretically, you know, metaphorically, whatever, thinking, gosh, is today, the day they're going to figure out, I don't know what they think.

I know, are they going to fire me?

You know, and it's really rough.

And that can lead to burnout.

I feel as well because you feel like you can't stop.

You have to keep going.

Otherwise, you know, you're not going to be good enough.

You know, I don't know how you've dealt with that in your career or if you have, you know, maybe maybe you're just one of the unicorns.

That's so amazing, John.

No, you should know.

But yeah, I mean, how how have you kind of what are some things that you've done to kind of help get over that imposter syndrome?

I guess there are two way, two things that I would try to sprinkle in because I'm, I get the imposter syndrome a lot all the time.

And I, I hope I try, I really want to just still be as like genuine and authentic as I can be when I'm all out and about on the interwebs making a silly YouTube video or just, I don't know, being on social media.

I, I try to keep it real, trying to be myself.

And with that, I feel like I try to be super forthcoming and transparent of look, I don't know everything.

I can't.

There's no way for me to.

There is just too much out there.

I don't even, I don't, I don't want to call myself an expert and I hate when folks call folks other folks expert because there are no experts in the industry.

But I, I'll.

Fall on my sword like I've I've never truly been a sock analyst.

I've never truly been a pen tester.

I fell into a researcher thing, which is very fluffy and very flexible.

It's like, oh, go do what is neat and cool and I'm I appreciate that.

I love that.

But I always try to remind, just be totally true upfront with folks.

I'm still learning.

I have a lot to learn, but I want to learn along with you.

I want to be here side by side to explore and play and figure things out and learn.

So I tried to, if anything, keep charging along and charging away.

And I almost want to ignore the imposter syndrome because it gets in the way, because I know the way that we kind of accomplish our goals is to just keep doing it, to keep working at it.

And imposter syndrome is just a nuisance.

Well.

And so I I.

Put it away Absolutely.

And with the.

Tools that are available to us nowadays, it, it is really easy.

I find it a lot easier for me to try to get over that imposter syndrome because if you truly want to be successful or you want to figure something out, you know, not only is there like Google, but you know, there's AI helping you now and there's so much out there.

People have documented, there's people like you creating YouTube videos that are helping people.

And it, I feel like it's a lot easier if you know how to use the tools to get over that.

So it's, it definitely is coming, becoming easier with time, But you know, that's everyone's journey is different now.

I I am curious though, what is something, if you could change one thing in your career journey, what would you absolutely do differently if you had the chance getting deep here?

I don't know if folks are going to like that.

My answer I, I wish I spent more time on or in or just had more of the understanding of kind of regular IT sys admin work and truly help desk trouble work tickets in that whole world.

Normally folks, oh, try to line out this road map of a career and they say go through these stepping stones and 01 rung on the ladder and then the next blah, blah, blah.

And if you had that in that super procedural, linear, linear fashion, I don't know if I would have hop skipped or jumped around a couple of those.

But I always know I can tell.

I'd feel myself like I don't have the knowledge to get a printer set up within Active Directory environment so that folks can use the workstations as they should amongst an environment that is like a regular office, like a corporate environment.

I went straight into CV ES and exploits and POP and shells and that silly stuff.

And I never really got the, I don't want to say traditional, but like the pure information technology, network architecture thing, help desk information here and there.

And I feel bad, like I feel like I missed the knowledge base that I should have.

Because when you have it, you know, you understand and you see things in a different way, in a better way because you know how the rest of the world functions.

Yeah, in a business, yeah.

An environment, yeah.

When you have individuals that are asking for help with their computer or tech support, blah, blah, blah, that stuff is undervalued, I think.

But it needs to have so much more on the spotlight and value because that's the majority of the work that happens in the real world, I think.

Am I wrong, Dakota, what do you think?

No, you.

You are 100%.

You know, I do career coaching with people and people always ask me how can I break into cybersecurity?

You know, that's the most popular question I get all the time, especially in the comments.

And I tell everyone, the everyone has their own journey.

There is bazillion ways and there's really no wrong way.

The easiest way I see for people is to start with like help desk, doing some of the basic stuff.

Because while both journeys will probably take you about the same time in the long run, whether you're going through the help desk, networking and stuff and then breaking into cybersecurity, that might take you a little bit longer, but it's going to be a little bit easier path.

And you're going to have all that previous knowledge to keep building like a strong foundation.

It's like building a house.

You know, if you have a good foundation on how everything works, you know, you know, a good foundation to build your house upon, you're just going to build a better house, a stronger house that can stand the time and you're going to have more opportunities to do different things.

And I'm not saying that you can't just go from nothing at all straight into cyber security.

That is a path.

There is people out there doing that.

You're proof of it.

But that jump is a lot harder of a jump, I feel like than taking the incremental steps to get there.

But I don't think I can ever tell anyone what is right for them.

They have to figure that out on their their own.

It's kind of you kind of learn the hard way really.

And if it really also depends on their determination, I feel like if you are super adamant, like no, my first job is going to be a sock analyst, good for you.

Do it, make it happen.

Understand that's going to be a lot harder of a job, your first job to land than just getting a help desk job.

But getting help this job, you're gonna have to do like a year or two in the help desk and then you're gonna have to level up to your next position and then you're gonna go into a sock analyst role.

Those steps are gonna be easier each little stepping stone instead of just taking this big giant leap.

But it's still possible you can do.

And that's what's so great about this industry.

You can do whatever you want to get to your end goal.

But also one thing I see happen too is when they go that easier route, some people get lost.

They also get very comfortable and like, oh, this is a good job.

And you know, they just kind of sit at that help desk for 710 years.

So again, nothing wrong with that.

I know people who absolutely love their jobs.

Doing that really boils down to is do what makes you happy, follow that passion.

You know, if you have to get into a job tomorrow, understand you're probably not going to make that big jump.

You're going to have to take those baby steps.

If you have the time to study and learn and network and put yourself out there and do all those things, yeah, you can make that big jump.

But if you're in a spot where you just need to get started, just start working, start building that experience because it's going to pay off in the long run.

Eventually you're going to get there.

And that experience, I mean, experience, let's be honest, is huge in the cyber security world.

Back in the day, it could be like, you know, you need experience to get a job, but how can you get a job without experience?

But there's so many new opportunities to get experience now.

You know, you have these CTFS, you have, you know, the hack, the boxes, the Tri hackneys out there, just build experience.

You can build your home labs.

It is so much easier to build experience.

And I've kind of gone off on a rant here, but you know, again, it all comes back to everyone has their own way into the industry.

You have to find out what works for you.

No, I agree.

I'm all about sorry I I went off the.

Deep end there.

I get so passionate about these things is you know, because so many people are like, how do you do this?

You can't you can't break in.

I'm like, there is plenty of ways you can break in, it just depends on how you want to break in.

You got to find out what works for you, what interests you.

I mean, because let's be honest, no one wants to go to a job they absolutely hate, they absolutely dread.

So, and that's super important because I think in the early days, we've all got that like passion, that fire, a lot of ambition.

But that's why you absolutely need to find, yeah, the work that you love and the work that is fun and you're willing to do, you're willing to get out of bed, of bed and do every day because there will come a time that it starts to feel like work.

And that might happen in a year, maybe five years, maybe 10, maybe 20, I don't know.

But it's, it's gonna happen.

So gosh darn it, make sure you're doing something you love and you're obsessed with and you can't stop thinking about it because you want to prolong that expiration date as long as you can make it 20 or 30 years when you're like, now, this feels like work before.

I got into tech.

I got called out on that.

Oh yeah.

Because it was that very much for me.

A lot of my jobs before tech, I would only stay around for like a year or two and then I would hop because I would absolutely hate the job I was buying.

I mean, it was boring or whatever reason.

Someone once called me out on that.

And like, you notice you've never stayed in a job for more than two years.

I'm like, yeah, you get bored when you go to the next one.

And then when I got into tech, I noticed like that quit happening, you know, especially when I got into networking because my passion is always networking.

It's always been networking.

Yeah.

I've been at my my job going on five years now and I just love it.

People ask when are you going to go to YouTube full time?

I'm like, I don't know if I really want to.

I really like my job.

So it's really special.

And the way I got there is because I just focused on, I always wanted to be a networking administrator, network engineer.

That was my end goal.

And I became a director of network operations.

I think I kind of got there, but I kept on focusing on that while I was on the help desk, while I was doing that job that I knew was just gonna be a stepping stone.

I was like, this is happening for a reason, because I'm going to get there.

Absolutely.

I want to be really.

Respectful of your time.

I know we're, we're coming up here on some time here and I got a few more questions I want to make sure and ask.

You know, a lot of people listening to this are just trying to break in, you know, and I think we've given some really good advice.

Is there one thing in particular though, that you wish someone would have told you to help you when you are very first starting out?

Yeah, we got a.

Lot of really good Nuggets already I think.

Covering hey, making it a passion, trying to fend off when it feels like work.

The imposter syndrome, the burnout, the mental health shenanigans.

I know the path could be totally different for everybody so you got to choose your own.

I know I fell in through capture the flag, but suggest if anyone hasn't played with that, if this is going to be a boring bad answer.

But I hope it is still one that maybe folks will understand because we've covered a lot of ground already.

But I don't think we have talked about or at least kind of sprinkled in while you show your work, while you document, while you, I don't know, try to again, build out your resume and portfolio.

Make sure you're taking notes for yourself.

Boring, bad, stupid answer, but I do genuinely feel like build out your own second brain, your own reference, your own checklist, your own order of operations and your notes because that is the best tool that you'll have for the next thing that you run into, for the next strange shenanigans issue stuff that you stumble across.

Make one designated home base for your notes and keep tending to that garden.

So I did that for.

Myself about six years ago and it was, it was something huge.

I, I mean, I use Notion for everything.

And so I just, you know, I watched some videos on how to easily document because for me, if the barrier to entry on something like that is too high, if it takes too much work, I'm not going to do it.

I'm not going to continue following through.

So I had to figure out a way where I could just quickly jot down the notes and then like, deal with it later or just have a system in place.

And that database for me has just grown and grown.

And yeah, a lot of times I don't look back on some of the things.

But I mean, when I do need to, it's so awesome to look those things up because again, there's just so much going on in the industry.

It's evolving so quickly.

It's easy to just forget what you did yesterday.

I feel like it will be a.

Lifesaver only when you least expect it.

So just totally prepare for that and don't ever forget hey, Oh yeah, let me jot that down.

Let me keep note of that.

Like that will save you.

Absolutely.

And.

Speaking of just things evolving so quickly, where do you see just the cybersecurity industry as a whole heading?

Do you see jobs changing?

I mean, let's be honest, AI is here.

We're not putting that toothpaste back in the tube.

But do you think it's gonna be super impactful in the world of cybersecurity and how people are the jobs that are available?

That's a really broad.

Question.

I don't know yet.

No, it's, it's so tough to answer, 'cause I, I don't have a crystal ball, right?

Can't see the future.

Not Nostradamus, but yes, without a doubt it's cool, it's neat, it's innovative.

It is genuinely solving a lot of problems, but I still I've drank the AI kool-aid.

Personally, I have, but I I don't think I've had the whole pitcher like the whole jug and maybe like halfway through because I use it, I vibe code.

I'm always in ChatGPT.

I'm digging cursor having a lot of fun.

I don't know.

I don't think I think it it will take jobs it already has.

It is going to continue to, but so far that has been not to say low tier.

I don't want to say I don't, I don't mean that with any ill will or shade by any means, but it's just some of the more easily automated, unsophisticated work when it gets to the absolute expertise that needs this masterful mind to really make decisions and contexts and have all that experience that's still left up to a human to do the right way.

And so there's a a element of trust and accountability.

You can't hold a computer responsible for destroying your database or any other mistakes that it might make.

So it's super hard to answer the question.

I think it is already taking jobs and it will.

But if you make yourself above it, you will still be valued and necessary and needed in the industry without a doubt.

I think that's just.

The nature of the working environment in general, you know, totally.

Things change, they evolve.

I mean, we don't have switchboard operators for telephones anymore, you know what I mean?

That system was off, you know, automated infinite switchboard.

Operator, the key to everything we do, Things change.

And the way I'm seeing it is, yeah, AI is absolutely taking jobs.

It is definitely taking some of those maybe easier to automate jobs, but it's also creating a bazillion jobs.

And it's lowering the barrier to entry for hackers now too.

And yeah, they're, they're the attacks are just coming like crazy.

Not, you know, just in the cybersecurity world.

But let's talk about like the whole tech industry.

It is absolutely changing everything.

So it is, it is here.

It's here to stay.

And if you're able to evolve with it, I think you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

If you're just the guy that say I I've taken my job, no, no point in working anymore.

You know, you're going to get left behind with that.

Do you think it's getting harder to find jobs or is it, what do you think the job market's like lately?

Is it easier to find jobs, you know, compared to like when you started out, or is it getting a little bit harder?

I.

Would not truthfully be a good individual to answer just because I I haven't been out and about looking for a job lately.

What I hear from folks, what I see on the outside looking in not knowing without having any authority there is that it is hard is is that it's tough and I'm sorry, I don't, I don't know.

I don't have a a better answer, truth be told, but I think it is, if anything, more of that incentive, more of that reason, more of the motivation and fuel to do all of the things that we keep trying to tell you about the portfolio.

Resume, take notes, network, communicate, be present in the industry.

Put yourself out there.

I know I don't want to sound like a broken record when we keep shouting and screaming from the rooftops, but gosh darn it, that's the right answer.

That's the best thing you can do.

No, I absolutely and you know, John, I, I really appreciate you taking all this wonderful time to just to really kind of go deep and you know, into your journey and give you just gave so much advice in this interview.

I really appreciate it.

I want to give you a check a second to, you know, talk about the resources you do for the community and where people can find you if they have other questions and things like that.

Sweet.

Well, thank you.

So much, yeah.

Hey, you can track me down online, hopefully pretty easy to find.

It's just my name, John Hammond on on YouTube, on LinkedIn, on Twitter, blah blah blah.

You'll see my ugly mug, the silly red hair and that is hopefully a whole lot of hands on keyboard practical educational videos and value for you to follow along.

Another extra venture we've been trying to spin up.

Is this just hacking training?

I feel bad.

I'm sorry I'm wearing the shirt.

I didn't want to be a billboard by any means, but I don't know.

That has been another incredible opportunity that we've had to kind of join forces with other incredible people in the industry that have their incredible expertise and they're willing to share in courses and training and hack along videos or write ups and upskill challenges and blog posts.

It's it's just so much fun to be able to be and work as a team to hey, help take on the industry and teach people elevate and upskill their own up their upskill, theirs, whatever they're up to.

So well, John again.

Thank you for coming on the channel.

I think this is like the 4th or 5th time you've came on the channel.

I really appreciate.

It's always a pleasure to have you and I hope to have you again sometime.

Thank you so much.

Awesome everyone.

I really hope you enjoyed this video and until next time, keep learning.