Open source, again good could be cost effective, but consider the soft cost of the labor and and brain cells that are needed to keep those open source tools delivering.

Every IT pro.

Knows the feeling.

You start off with one tool to fix a problem and then another gets added.

And before you know it, you're juggling 6 different dashboards, 3 subscriptions.

That you completely forgot about.

And a.

Whole lot of frustration still.

Vendors keep on promising this.

Magical single plane of glass, but.

Does it even exist or are we just destined?

To drown in tools forever.

Today I'm joined by Dan.

From Net Ally.

And we're digging into the.

Truth about IT tools.

Why they matter White teams always seem to end up.

With too many and how to actually build a smarter tool strategy that works in the real?

World, whether you're just starting out in IT.

Or you've been in the game for.

Years this conversation will change the way.

You think about the tools we rely on daily.

With that said, let's roll.

Into this week's episode.

Welcome to the show, Dan.

Thank you for taking the time to join us today.

Do you mind?

Taking a few minutes and introducing yourself and what you do.

Sure, I'd be happy to.

Yeah.

Thanks for having me.

My name is Dan Klimke.

My job is that I'm the Director of Product Marketing at Net Ally.

I'm sure you and a lot of folks know who Net Ally is.

You know, we make the handheld network troubleshooting tools, and I'm sure that probably come up on today's conversation, but I've been with the company and with the product line for a long time.

I mean, really, I've spent most of my career working with this product line, frankly ever since 1997 when I started working for Fluke and when the product line was, you know, originated back then.

Worked at Fluke for 15 years or Fluke Networks, I should say.

Our company was sold off to Netscout where we sat for about 3 years and then it became clear that we weren't really a good fit with that company.

We're just very different product solutions and in fact kind of maybe pertinent to today's conversation, Netscout makes one set of network and performance management tools, but we weren't really good fit with that kind of category.

So we were sold off and bought by a private firm and we became Net Ally in 2019 and and we're still going strong.

That's kind of, you know, a little bit about my career and where we where I came from and a little bit about Net Ally.

Absolutely.

You know, I, I've used your guys's tools throughout the years and absolutely love them.

And you know, I can't stress the importance of having good quality tools that fit the right job.

Absolutely.

But I I don't think I've ever worked anywhere that didn't have like a million different tools and dashboards and so many different things going on.

Why does every team you think always end up with this huge tool sprawl?

There's a lot of different reasons.

And you know, as we are preparing for, as I was preparing for being a part of this this morning, I, I thought about, you know, what's a good analogy to think about?

And I, I kind of like to think of myself as a handyman.

I, I like doing projects around the house.

So I was thinking, you know, maybe maybe the analogy of the kind of tools that I have in my workshop, it might be a good example to, to tell that story or try to figure it out.

And so I got to thinking about, well, you know, what are all the kinds of tools that I have?

And maybe we can think about one specific type of tool, you know, a saw.

How many saws do I actually have?

And I get to thinking about it.

Well, OK, I've got a chop saw, right?

A powered chop saw, powered miter saw.

I've got a handheld circular saw.

I've got a table saw.

I've got a hack saw.

I've got a couple of hand saws.

I've got saws that are used for pruning trees.

I have a chainsaw.

I have a chainsaw too.

So why do you have so many saws?

You know, you know, you just why did you just have one do.

You want to see my new?

Chainsaw and I think it really points out that there are highly specialized functions that require a a tool that is focused on what that particular job is.

And in networking, you know, as networks become more and more complex, that specialization becomes even even more fine grained, if you will, even within the realm of like, you know, hand saws, you've got ripping saws and you got cross cut saws, right.

I mean it's just like you've got A and I think that's it.

Specialized functions require specialized tools.

So that's one aspect.

It's just, you know, one thing can't do everything.

The other aspect is, is that I think as, as time goes on and, and, and let's, maybe we'll just kind of focus on network operations teams.

I mean, clearly there are different teams within IT that would have, you know, different needs and specific requirements based on their focus and function.

But let's just think about like network OPS, network engineering people who are responsible for the day-to-day management, troubleshooting, optimization of the network infrastructure.

A lot of times there's like an urgent problem arises and the team realizes that, or an individual or the team realizes that, gosh, we don't really have a way of seeing what's going on in this particular area of the network or in this particular technology.

So, so the, the realization that there's a lack of visibility in one certain area will drive tool purchases.

And then you have the, you know, you've got a lot of different vendors.

Some organizations operate in a homogeneous infrastructure, others have a diverse environment, which may drive requirements.

You have different technologies, you know, you have Wi-Fi, you've got Ethernet, you have different speeds and flavors of Ethernet.

You got copper, you got fiber.

So there's there's all of those different aspects that eventually drive up the number of different tools that people have.

So it's it's kind of a natural thing is that as a as a team goes along, they're going to find shortcomings in what they have.

You know, in networking, having the right tools doesn't just make life easier, it actually changes outcomes.

Most of us.

Have lived the patchwork 1.

Portal for your ISP, another for your Wi-Fi, something totally different for security.

And yet it never fails.

Somehow you still don't have the.

Visibility you need.

That's why I'm excited about what?

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All right, back to this week's episode.

The the.

Second, someone says, hey, we don't have visibility into this X thing.

Boom, we have another tool, right?

I mean, I, I've seen that play out in real life and I feel like it can just become kind of overwhelming.

Do you have you kind of seen like just all these tools kind of stack up like to be too much?

Certainly the other aspect is who's, who's managing these tools, right.

And so it can get to the point where I mean, we can talk about tool abandonment or, or legacy tools.

I remember visiting 1 customer A a large healthcare system in, in the Houston, TX area.

And I remember sitting and Dan with their network manager, a couple of their key engineers and they, their team, I don't know if I recall this is years ago, maybe 10 or 12 people in, in that role of network management and operations.

And the, the manager was saying, well, so and so they manage this tool, this, this person uses this tool, this is, and this guy is the net ally guy, right?

So there are you end up with specialists who are responsible for tool sets.

And I think, and I don't know if I'm really addressing your question, but one of the things that I've seen happen is you'll get someone who's responsible for a tool and they're the go to person for that.

And then when they leave that tool may or may not get readopted from someone else on the team.

I think network management.

Software 100%.

Yeah, I think network management software is one of the biggest examples.

You know, Joe, he's our just use a, a common one, right?

Here's our SolarWinds guy.

And then Joe leaves.

It's like, well, well, he was responsible for everything.

Maybe now's the time to look for a new one because we can't figure this out.

I mean it.

And so staff changes may also cause tools to hang around, maybe get abandoned.

But then when it comes time for like renewal of support contracts, then people are like, oh, what do we really want to spend this money on this thing?

And sometimes the answer is, well, we may still need it.

We, you know, let's keep this in their arsenal.

And and so it's natural for as time progresses for the inventory of tools to, you know, increase.

You know, I absolutely agree.

And I've seen that myself.

People leave and someone else comes in and they have their own favorite tools they like.

And so they they switch things out to their liking, which there's nothing wrong with that.

If you're familiar with the tool and it gets the job done.

Absolutely, you know, make them, make your life easy.

And and frankly, net, net, we count on that at Net Ally.

We find that happens so often.

It's like, you know, someone who's has really kind of integrated the use of our tools in how they do their job.

They they move to another job and they find out what you don't have.

You don't have a link runner, you don't have a, an air check.

Oh, we got to get that.

You know, it was critical at my last job.

I know, but you?

Know, thank goodness, because and, and in truth, you know, that's I don't not speaking just from, from a vendor selfish point of view.

I have so many people who tell us that, you know, they just couldn't do their job without using the tools that we provide.

So it, it, it's, that's not bad, right?

I mean, again, not from the selfish, you know, vendor point of view, but that helps the team that they're going to.

They found, Hey, I had really good success with XYZ tool, whether it's ours or someone else's and and that learning comes to the new organization and they get the benefit of that person's expertise with that tool.

So, so that's another reason why you see that tool sprawl.

Is this just something we have to accept in the industry you think?

Are we doing?

Something wrong or like it's just just the norm?

It's not wrong at all now.

So there's many instances where it's the right move to add a tool.

But I think the, I guess the unfortunate thing is that sometimes there's an urgent issue that popped up.

There's like something's happening in this area of technology in this part of the network, and we don't have visibility.

So there's this, yeah, we got to go find something.

We got to get it quick.

And so the priority is put on how do we solve this problem?

And that may require a tool and that's the right move.

It's like we, we realize that something's not right with our, with, with the tool set that we have.

We can't see this thing or, or find the root cause of this particular problem.

And here's a solution that will do that for us.

Do it.

I mean, that's your job is to do what it takes to solve the problem and get your get your network back up into the high performance status, right?

So it's often the right move to add tools.

And I know I can't really, you know, when you're facing an urgent kind of problem, I guess maybe there's some steps that you could take to ensure in fact, you know what actually we back up a little bit.

I think it's the right thing to do is to have kind of a regular audit of your tool sets.

And again, you know, this is this is one of those things where you're doing some sort of proactive, A proactive project often get de prioritized because of the tyranny of the urgent.

But if, if you're maintaining and at least on an annual basis, doing a review of your tool set, making sure that the tools, even though they're used infrequently, that there still is a specific use case that that still requires that tool to be around.

So again, tool sprawl is not wrong.

Sometimes it's hard to do it smartly because of that urgency that, you know, we've recognized that there's a shortcoming and we need to solve that.

But there are are things that you can do.

I mean, if the, if, if you're not facing an urgent issue, then treat it like a project.

And, and often times, you know, some of these tools are pretty darn expensive.

So, and it's it's, it's management's prerogative to make sure that the team has gone through the right process steps to ensure that they've applied some level of due diligence and logic and create a business case.

That leaves me to the question, you know, so we found a blind spot in our network or whatever we're working on.

What's the smartest way to pick the new tool without just adding more junk to the pile?

You personally, do you like, do you recommend some sort of vetting process or you know, how can we know we're actually getting what we need?

One of the ways to categorize tools is around the kind of data that they're providing.

And I bring this up because it's a way of, of, of seeing where are, I guess being more specific about where the gaps are, right?

And so in, in the broad scope of network management, what are the data sources that that these tools are going to bring to the fore so that you have visibility?

Obviously packet based tools is 1.

I mean, everybody has Wireshark, right?

And often there's an old saying your packets are the only source of truth.

And that's true, but getting to the packets can be hard, getting them can be hard, and analyzing them can be hard.

Although every network engineer in the world probably has Wireshark.

Yeah, probably less than 5% can really effectively use it.

Very true.

And because of that, because of that complexity, there are tools that automate that, right?

So, so packet visibility, that's one SNMP based data or data that's coming from the infrastructure itself and that could be accessed using technologies like SNMP to query the infrastructure or you have your infrastructure management tool that is gathering information from from the infrastructure itself and presenting that.

So often, OK, that's going to be one of your panes of glass over here is the the management tool.

But then you have, you know, actual measured information and, and that's kind of where net ally comes into play.

It's connecting to the wire or listening to the, the air, the wireless to see what's happening in the media itself.

So you've got these different perspectives of, of statistical data, you know, SNMP based data, you know, utilization.

Flow data is a, I don't want to say a substitute, but it's a layer of packet based.

It's packet based data doesn't go deep, but it lets you know, you know who's using what applications, what percentage of bandwidth is what application taking up on the network.

So flow data is important, but then actually measured the data and that could get down to actually looking at electrons on the wire, you know, testing Power over Ethernet.

Am I getting the power on this link that the switch says that it's providing?

So there's an aspect of trust, but verify my switch says this.

Are you sure?

Because sometimes, yeah, that's not true, right, 100%.

Yeah, no, I, I've seen that in my own life.

And, you know, I feel like it's often the most overlooked thing to start looking into is that let's actually go put hands and like plug our equipment in to see if it's actually working the way we think it is, right?

Because often it's, it feels like it's such a simple thing, you know, but there's really quite a bit complexity there that things could go wrong.

And, and it can, and so, but so the tool sprawl is a real thing.

And it, it, I don't, I don't know if I want to say that it can be an issue, right?

But it can lead to, you know, spending more than you need to, as I mentioned, you know, so let's say you're, you know, your vendor calls up and says, Hey, your support contracts coming to an end, you know, do we need to renew this?

And sometimes the the urgency of the contract ending drives a decision as opposed to some more thoughtful process around, are we using it?

Is this still providing a, a, you know, return on investment?

And are, you know, are we utilizing this or is there a case where, you know, we're not using it, but it's like the fire extinguisher.

It's like, yeah, I've got fire extinguishers all over the place.

I've never used my fire extinguishers.

Why do I need my fire extinguishers?

I wonder if it.

Would be all right if I borrowed your fire extinguisher.

Things can be really bad if you didn't have that fire extinguisher.

That plays into the decision making as well.

It's like, you know, the kind of the what if analysis.

And so you know, some tools may sit around for for a long time without being used.

But if if they're the one thing that can help when a certain circumstance occurs and that circumstances at non zero chance of occurring, well, it makes sense to have it.

No, 100%.

You know, one thing I noticed is vendors love to talk about the mythical single pane of glass.

Like it seems like almost every every company nowadays is talking about the single pane of glass they have view into the network.

Yeah.

Does that actually exist or is that just some sort of marketing?

Oh, it's completely marketing.

Speaking as a marketer, I know completely marketing.

Well, it's, I guess it's natural or it's to be expected for people who are experiencing, you know, the, the, the negatives of having all these tools is like, well, I got to go all the, you know, we got to have specialists and I've got data in pockets and just keep it.

Remember, the reason why those different pockets exist was there were good logical reasons for those tools to be purchased in the 1st place.

Yeah.

The, the, there is no single pane of glass.

The task is or the the goal should be reducing the number of panes of glasses that you have.

And that of course could be accomplished by way of, you know, like a management platform that can integrate different APIs from different data sources and presenting that into one that that's certainly one aspect of it.

But because of the again, when you look at all the different kinds of data sources that are that are contributing to your view into your network, when you look at the different jobs that people have, there's different information that's needed to accomplish those jobs.

You know, there there is no one vendor.

And in fact, you know, maybe in the world of network management software is maybe a good example.

I see a lot of people actually maybe compromising in order to reduce the number of tools that they're using.

So as an example, I mean, and you know, we're not in the business of network management software, at least not yet.

Who knows what might happen in the future, wink, wink.

But but seriously, I mean, most network management tools have like different modules.

You know, you got your, your, your infrastructure management, you got your network, your configuration change management, you've got IP address management.

And the desire for a single pane of glass causes people to look for these multifunction tools.

And that's great because you are, you know, reducing the tool set that you have.

By definition, you're likely not getting best in class in any one of those particular categories.

So in your organization, you may find that perhaps as an example, in a very large organization, which with thousands and thousands of network infrastructure devices, you may need a network management system that can handle, you know, a million interfaces.

And you may want to have granular detail about those interfaces.

You know, I want to sample those interfaces every minute, not every 5 or 15 minutes, because in your network that's critical for your managing your network.

But Oh yeah, we also want network configuration change management to bolt that on, but we also want that bolt that on.

And it's like, well, if I go with that solution, I'm not getting a solution that can give me the level of granular detail that I need over here.

So again, it just requires a clear understanding of your organization specific requirements and and as I said before, you know, developing a business case on the tools that are under consideration, ensuring that they are indeed filling a gap that can't be filled elsewhere, but also understanding what are your unique requirements and balancing off best in class versus multi function.

If I may kind of going back to your saw analogy, it's like, you know, a lot of times I feel like those single pane of glass where you know, they can't make it work for every organization.

You're not going to go cut fine, you know, trim for a house with a chainsaw.

You can't just have one that does it all while you can.

Cut.

Trim board with the chainsaw.

It's not going.

To do it very well.

Yeah.

So you have to think about what's the specific job that we're trying to accomplish, you know, what are the parameters of that and the data that's required, and look for the best solution for that.

So yeah, absolutely.

Now, I I couldn't get through this episode without mentioning AI.

Do you?

So in your opinion, do you think AI is going to help us simplify all these tools or is it just going to be one more tool to add to the mess of stuff we already have?

I think it's maybe the, well, we always, maybe we're always putting too much hope into what AI can do for us.

But I, I think that is the thing that could possibly deliver on this so-called single pane of glass, because, you know, it can look everywhere.

It can absorb all of those different sources of data from different tool sets.

I mean, as long as there's an API for it to get to the data and, and, and observe it, I think we're going to see tools that are aggregating and analyzing and summarizing the data that's coming from multiple tools.

So I, I don't think it's going to be yet another thing.

It has the potential to be that aggregator and analyzer.

It's not a great word, but you know, to be able to, to look at all it because it really, it's doing the function of the, of the human right.

Think about like when you've tried to solve a, a problem on a network, you've looked at yourself, you've looked at those different data sources, you've gone into the switch and looked at what's my utilization, any errors on this port.

Then you're going to go over here and you're going to look at, you know, some discovery data you're going to go over.

I mean, you're, you're doing the job of looking at all of those data sources, aggregating them, analyzing them and, and, and AI is going to do that for us.

So I expect in the very, very short term, we're going to see how AI can take those different data sources from different vendors and different tools and provide us a view that is, you know, summarized.

And the beauty of that, of course, is going to be that you just ask it the question, Hey, what's going on over here?

Oh, well, here's what I see.

And taking that information from all of those sources and providing us effectively that single point of view.

I have a question for you.

I'm curious, what is the most over hyped tool that you've seen in a company that you know, you've seen a company waste their money on?

You know, is there something in particular that comes to mind?

I, you know, I really can't think of 1.

I, I'm kind of struggling to, to think of one particular example because it's, so I think the question is so unique to an organization's own situation, whether you're in manufacturing or in healthcare, but you know, whatever vertical that is or education, you face different requirements about the, you know, what the net, the job that the network is there to support.

So I think because of that uniqueness, yeah, I, I can't really point to like, oh, in the industry, it's out.

It's this one thing people have always done bubble I, I, I guess back to your original question, if anybody is, you know, I mean the hype around single pane of glass, frankly, I think that's kind of gone away.

I think, you know, what was that maybe 10-15 years ago that was like all the rage, you know, a lot of discussion around this.

This is the single pane of glass and and people realize, you know, that's not really true, doesn't exist.

As we said, maybe AI is going to help help with that, but I don't really.

I can't put my finger on one thing, which I could say, Oh yeah, people always used to waste a lot of money on XY or Z.

What?

What's your experience Have have you found something to be the case?

Not anything that necessarily comes to mind in all honesty.

You know, I've always worked in very lean organizations where, you know, we, we always never have enough, you know, enough funds for the proper tools.

And that's another thing that we haven't even got into is, you know, all these tools, you know, like you said there, there's a cost with them.

And there's many organizations that just purely can't afford the cost of the tool.

I can think of tons of really great tools that would make my life so much easier.

But, you know, the price tag that comes on that tool, it doesn't justify the cost.

Yeah.

And that's why, you know, certainly open source tools is, is an option.

I was just talking with someone at a school district last week who was asking them about, well, you know, what are you using for network management?

They have an open source tool because budgets.

Budgets are a real thing.

Budgets get cut.

Budgets aren't big enough.

Absolutely.

I also remember talking with the CIO at a large healthcare system in the Seattle area.

He said, well, our appetite for it is about $12 million, but our budget is 4 million.

It's like, so there, you know, I want, but I'm gonna get.

But the thing about open source too, is it, it can be a viable solution, but then organizations have to recognize the, the soft cost of managing that open source tool.

Because again, here you're going to get into the situation of, OK, we're going to go with such and such open source tool.

You know, hey, Dakota, you're going to be the one to do this, you know, great.

So Dakota configures the tool, Dakota manages the tool, and then Dakota goes somewhere else and it's like, what do we do now?

Open source, again good could be cost effective, but consider the soft cost of the labor and and brain cells that are needed to keep those open source tools delivering.

Exactly.

Well, and actually, I can personally attest to that because at my, my day job, we're, we're making the switch from an open source tool to, you know, a paid solution.

Because just the cost to maintain this open source tool in the aspect of amount of time and to get it to do what we need to do, it started getting more costly to do that.

It's a real thing.

And, you know, then just going on and buying something off the shelf and plus you, you just go buy something off the shelf.

A lot of times you can get the support package with it.

So now the cost to operate, you know, the, the personnel time, there's a huge, you know, exchange there.

You know, it no longer takes hours to just manage this one tool.

Cuz let's be honest, some of these open source tools, you can pretty much hire one person just to maintain that tool depending on how you have it deployed.

Yeah.

And often that's very true.

And then so you got to, you know, trade that off the the fully burdened labor cost of having someone on staff versus getting an off the shelf solution.

Then there's likely going to be, you know, someone's going to have to manage even the off the shelf solution.

But ideally your, your labor rate for for managing that off the shelf solution is going to be less than the dedicated person who's responsible for the entire operation and programming and management of the tool set itself.

Yeah.

Now my next question, I feel that you might be a little bit biased on, but if you could only keep one tool in your bag, which one's staying with you?

Well, OK, so perspective, let's talk about perspective.

You can't do it on a network with A1 tool.

And that one tool could be a network management system, it could be a handheld network tester, which I should have had in my hand.

My tools are over there.

But think about perspective, which is where is this data coming from?

What is what is the position of the observer for this data?

If we're talking about a network management platform, network monitoring software that's sitting on a server somewhere, either, you know, virtual server or real server, it's sitting in some place and it's sending its queries out into the network from where it resides.

So that's kind of like from, you know, from the core of the network out.

But that's not the only perspective.

And there's certain data that that monitoring, that monitoring system won't have access to.

So the edge in view is something that tools like what Net Ally provides, gives you.

It's going to provide a view of the network from the point of view where the user of the network is actually connecting, whether that's on wired, Ethernet or wireless.

And that's a complementary view.

How is the user seeing the network?

So there is no, just like there's no such thing as a single pane of glass, there's no such thing as the one tool that can do everything.

But of course, being a vendor in the space that provides handheld tools.

But it's true.

It's like nothing can give you the kind of visibility that a tool like an etherscope or an aircheck can give you out in the access layer.

Agents on a laptop?

Not gonna do it.

It's there's just no other independent, third party verifiable source of data that can see the network from the perspective of the user itself themselves.

Absolutely.

So yeah, I am a bit biased.

I'm biased because I hear from our customers so frequently.

You know, like the school district I was talking to last week, like a guy from a very large prominent university who came by our booth, the Cisco Show me, He said, Look, I, I just want you to know I cannot do my job without the tools that you guys provide it.

You know, I remember what it was like before I had them and I can't go back there.

It saves me so much time, gives me answers, you know, so fast.

There's just no way that I could do my job without using my net ally tools.

And that's, that's really gratifying to us and our engineering team who puts, you know, so much thought into the jobs of our customers and trying to create ways that they can get to those answers and get to that those answers quickly.

You know, I remember when I used to work in the hotel industry and we, we had net ally tools and I just remember just the convenience of, you know, walking down.

I'm like, oh, there's an Ethernet Jack there.

Where where does that go?

Where that's not supposed to be there?

Plug into it.

Oh.

That's what it is.

OK, whatever you know.

It just, you know, could I have done that without a net highlight tool?

Yes.

Would it have taken me ages to, you know, track that down or, you know, figure out the, the wiring problem?

Look, I'm not getting Poe here.

That's why this camera is not working.

You know the you know I can't do that with a laptop.

Yeah, I think we, I once counted up all of the individual metrics that comes out of running an auto test in our tools.

There's something like 48 discrete queries or data sources or bits of information that you get when you run an auto test.

You know, everything from, you know, eliciting Poe and link link pulse on a link all the way up to, hey, how fast can I get, you know what, what's my network round trip time to some server or service out on the network because, yeah.

And in, you know, 30 seconds, you're getting those 48 data points as opposed to, well, I'm going to have to do this and then I have to do this.

And then I have to, you know, it's so, yeah.

That that automation of data collection and presentation of the data is what what people appreciate is like with this.

I can instantly see into my network.

Now as we certainly on the plane here, I'm curious from your perspective, if you could give people one piece of advice, you know, to how to pick that tool that really suits their needs, what would that be?

I also come back to that idea about a business case and it really is just applying some diligence around documenting and you know, thinking about your workflow and your workflow process, identifying what data is needed at those different points of that workflow process and utilizing that as your criteria when you're evaluating the tools that you have or identifying the gaps in your visibility and going and looking for the solutions that fill those gaps.

It's often the tyranny of the urgent that makes that hard to do because, you know, something cropped up today.

We got to figure out how to solve this as fast as we can.

And again, back to what I was saying before about, you know, it's tough to find the time to be proactive, but often investing in that time upfront will save time in the end.

It's like once heard someone say, take the time it takes so that it takes less time.

No such thing as a magic magic wand or magic bullet.

For all those problems, applying some process, identifying, you know, the inventory of the tool sets you have and doing it, you know, some sort of proactive analysis of that would be a good step.

Absolutely.

And Dan, thank you so much for coming on, sharing all this wonderful knowledge with us.

I really appreciate it.

But.

It's great.

You know, if people want to reach out to you, if they have any other further questions, where can they find you?

And also where can they go?

Check out what Net Ally is doing.

Yeah, sure.

I'm sure.

You know you can find me at LinkedIn.

Fortunately, I have a last name that's not Smith.

My e-mail dan.klimke@netally.com.

See us at netally.com to learn about our tools and and everything that we can do for folks.

And yeah, be happy to help.

Awesome, again, I really appreciate you taking the time and coming on and sharing this advice with us.

You got it and definitely have to have you back again in the future.

Be happy to.

It's great.

I would love, love the work that you're doing.

I'd love to see the content that you're putting out.

I really appreciate that and everyone, I really hope you enjoyed this episode.

If you got any other questions you have, make sure and drop them down in the comments below and until next time time, keep learning.