The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

Detective see aside of life, the average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

That's what I did for a living.

I was a homicide detective.

I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys.

Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.

The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talked to.

Some of the content and language might be confronting.

That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

Join me now as I take you into this world.

In part two of my chat, we've retired Queensland Police detective Dennis Martin.

Dennis told us some details about his interaction with Daniel Morkham's killer, Brett Cowen.

It was quite chilling what he had to say, and we're going to go into more detail now.

And I think listeners who want to know what is going through a detective's mind when sizing up a suspect, you are going to find this fascinating.

It also gives us an insight in the pressures of being involved in a high profile investigation and the robust nature of policing when the stakes are high and there's always differences of opinions regarding how matters should be approached.

I think you're going to find this part of the conversation fascinating.

Durns Martin, welcome back to part two of I Catchkillers.

Thanks for that.

I'm really enjoying our chat and it brings back a lot of memories in the policing and different different experiences.

In part one, we talked about your childhood where you grew up in Maure, talked about your career in the army and then going across to policing and your fairly extensive undercover career within policing.

Then you went to Task Force Argos, which was investigating child sex offenders, and that's how you got tied up with the investigation into the disappearance of Daniel Morcambe.

I think when we left part one we're talking about you'd been given the file perhaps two weeks, so, two weeks after Daniel disappeared back in two thousand and three, I think seventh of December two thousand and three to go and speak to a call them a person of interest.

It's just anyone that's on the list a Brett Cowen, What were your impressions when you went there?

Talk us through what happened when you went to that location.

Yeah.

Look, my partner and I were driving along.

It was a little near Palmwood's, nice little little area.

It was maybe half sort of acres here, and there drove up the driveway.

His house was on the front of the block.

There was a house behind, and in hindsight, I now I know that it was the pastor's house.

He was one of the people that were sort of sponsoring him.

But anyway, there was a lot of I wouldn't say kids toys, but there were a lot of things around in the yard, like little windmills that he would make cow and made and all that sort of thing would take the markets and sell.

But they were painted in such a way that to me, I thought a kid would want them.

You know, they were like butterflies on the blades and all that sort of stuff.

So I said to Ken straight, I so that's a bit strange, man, you know, it just just looks like a kid's area, and I knew he didn't have any children at that age.

So he had a front porch out the front, which was a concrete I guess porch with no cover.

And before we went there, I did read some witness statements.

One of the witness statements said that on the left hand side, going towards Nambor, there was a full drive with a black Snorkell park there right during the time that Daniel was allegedly under the underpass waiting for the bus.

So I kept that in the back of my mind.

Okay, so this is in when you're getting your head around the circumstances of Daniel's disappearance.

There was that four will drive with the black Snorkel.

That's great, Yes, yeah, yeah, in the center of where Daniel was last scene alive.

That's right.

The vehicle itself would have been where the witness said it was directly across the road.

But given that that roade was two lanes towards Nanboor and two lanes the other side, it may have been one hundred meters or one hundred fifty meters, but it was still there obviously to observe that's what you do from there.

So we drove in the driveway and here is a white full drive with a black snorkel.

And I said to Ken, I said, I think it's something going on here.

This is a little bit.

I don't believe in coincidences.

It's a coincidence that to me is a key indicator that person or that person now becomes more of a person of interest and to me steps up the ladder towards the suspect.

But that's just what it was at the time on the observation of that car.

So we helped out and started to take record.

Are running knocked on the door and outsteps Brett Peter Kown.

Now he had some shorts on, I think, and a collarge shirt.

I think it might have been a white college I can't remember now.

But he was quite well, you know, his hair was cut, he was shaven, but he stood in a funny way.

He's still with his shoulders back of it.

He was a skinny sort of fellow, you know, and sort of anything moving was sentuated, you know, that's sort of the way he was.

And he was very cocky and straight away I didn't like him.

And I said to Ken, you know, I said, just keep an eye on this bloke mate.

So we got talking to him and we asked him where he was at the time, and he's very blase.

I don't know, really I was.

I was around, and I said, we're going to have to sort this out pretty quickly, Brett, because I don't have all day to deal with dickheads, you know, and you've got to be straight up.

Well, I was straight up with these people, you know.

I don't have time to mark around with you.

Ah.

Well, I might have gone in and picked something up at Namble.

So then we were starting to get the picture of Okay, so you've you know, you've gone to Namble.

Which way did you drive to Namble?

Anyway?

So he said, oh, I drove and underpass and all that sort of stuff.

I said, you happen to see a little child with black hair on the underpass from the other side near the bus stop.

No, no, not at all.

Never never saw anybody, I said, but somebody has said that they saw your car.

I said it was his car parked on the other side of the road.

I don't know how.

He said, I never stopped.

I said, I didn't say you stopped.

I said, they said it was parked on it.

I said, did you stop.

No, no, it never stopped at all.

I said, did you see a white fall drive with a snock on it?

No?

I said, do you think it was to be a coincidence that you drive a white car with a snorkel it's a foo will drive and someone saying they saw something similar on that side.

Of the road.

I said, you're a pedophile, bad one by the sound of it.

I said, and yet you know I've looked at And I was only bluffing at the time because I didn't have any on who the other children were.

I said that that Daniel is in your age group, and he goes, well, he looked at it.

I said, oh did he?

Yeah, I said, I thought you said.

He didn't say anybody I might have pulled over.

So now we've established two things.

If firstly you're pulled over, you reckon.

You've seen Daniel, I said, and you're a liar.

But we all know you're alive, because pedophiles are liars.

So then he started to get cranky, and I was really only trying to fluster him and get him sort of stirred up, you know.

And then his wife came out and she happened to be not the prettiest little thing, you know.

And they had a young child, and I took her aside.

I said, do you know the history of this fellow that you're married to?

I know everything, I said.

Did you know that he raped until he murdered a young boy here in queens And some years ago, and they did the same up in Darwin.

No, I didn't know that.

I said to you that with your child alone, he said, because I do.

It's my husband.

I said, well, do you know what happens when he takes an appy with that child?

So then she started to carry on an arc up a bit, and I was really only trying to get some sort of alia nation between them both, you know, And.

Look, and people might be listening to listening to this, and go, is that what happens?

That's what I think, good pleas to.

You're going in there, you've got to and I understand exactly what you're doing there.

And if you're go in, did you see anything?

No?

I thank you very much, sir, and walk away.

That's not how the world operates.

No, And they'll tell you that every day.

Yeah.

Yeah, So I'm fascinated to keep going with the story.

Sorry, when they're up.

So after that, obviously you know I've said to cow and I said, look, I disagree that you would have paid much attention to Daniel, given that you like little boys, particularly with dark hair, and Daniel was a little boy with dark hair.

I said, if I liked blonde and big breast, so I said, and I noticed that I would notice.

It's simple, I said, you don't have to lie to me.

I said, if that's what you noticed, that to what you noticed, I said, I'm not saying you did anything, just asking you.

Oh, well, I might have seen him.

Yeah, he was there.

So Lisa put him there at that time.

And that's a start.

That's a big, big start.

And the way the way the information came out too, holding it back and then under the pressure a little bit and then gives you a little bit more.

Yeah, yeah, so significant.

We tried to knock him off off keel to a little bit here, so he wasn't both feet on the ground.

He was one day in the air and thinking, oh, I don't know which way to go yet.

Yeah.

So then I said, well, I think we wouldn't mind having a bit of look around inside your house.

I said, what for, I said, I just want to have a little look if that's okay.

And I had no right really, but he said, oh, come.

In and have a mask.

Yeah, and he did.

He said, we'll come in and have a look.

So we did.

And I said to her on the side, I said, so when when did he leave the other day on the seventh?

And she goes, oh, I think you left around lunchtime?

And I said, he can keep him outside.

He was away.

And then I said, well when did he come back?

She said, oh, around about two is threeh I said, well that's a fair time.

I said, we're talking an hour or so, you know.

I said, did he do anything strange when you come back?

Yeah, he got me to wash all his clothes.

I said, why would he do that?

I said, did he do it on a regular basis?

No?

I said, I'm here asking his questions.

Now, I said, are you just stupid?

I said, can you see where I'm coming from?

No?

She said no, no, I can't.

You know he's just a terrific fellow.

I said, not a trivial fellow, I said, a pedophile, his rape children before you were a child here?

I said, how stupid are you?

So I had to leave her because I just couldn't put up with her.

She was just some people are just stupid and you can't talk anything.

They're like religious ealots.

Couldn't get it doesn't matter what you say.

I'm not going to register.

It doesn't matter.

So we got out and saw him and he said, well, look I was gone for a period of time, he said, And I went and saw a mate, said nimble, and got a mulcha from him.

I said, okay, who's this mate?

And all this sort of stuff.

We got that, and we said, look, while we're here, we want to take your DNA, your fingerprints, not that we really need them because we've got them on fire, but would take them anyway, and some either identifying particularly some pictures of you and your tattoos and your car and whatnot.

And you've got a bit cranky with the car anyway, so that's all right.

So we then left him after we were there maybe an hour.

Yeah, I guess.

Left And I said to Ken, I said, mate, if he didn't do Daniel Morkham, I said, you know, he's right for something, but I'm pretty sure that's who did it.

So I'm fascinated on a couple of couple of points there I think it's interesting that it's almost sometimes it's a test where people don't arc up like you, I want to have a look through your house, Like if you had nothing to do with it, he'd probably stay staunched and piss off, you're not coming in my house.

But he's trying to be compliant, and it's a real battle of the mines, isn't it that Yeah, at that point in time, because you know, you don't know, and you've got to push things to get the reactions so you can make an assessment.

Well, that's true.

And if everyone remind remembers in the back of my mind and Cans and my partners, we were still looking for Daniel.

Daniel could have been in one of the rooms, could have been one of the cupboards, could have been anywhere.

So that house needed to be searched, and whether it be done with his permission or not, it was going to get serched, trust me.

And I think that sometimes people forget that.

And when I took over the Wim Tural matter, I felt that pressure too, like we don't know what's happened to Wim Turrell.

So every inquiry you're making, you're wondering if this child's still alive.

Absolutely, because you'd be lifting our boxes outside of the garden looking in the shed because he could have been tied up there.

There's no reason why he wasn't.

He hadn't been found to that stage, so it could have been.

It was quite feasible for him to He's still been alive and kept.

So you're there for about an now.

Certainly the indicators that you've or the things that you've told me there, I'm looking at red flag, red flag you and can get back in the car, tell us the conversation you guys have, because I always find it fascinating, the conversation because you can't say, you can't declare it in front of each other or in front of the suspect.

But when you get back in the car, you can't wait to compare notes and get the others insights and tell us about the conversation.

Look, you know, straight away we looked at each other and said, he's right for it, and if it's not right for something, but we're pretty confident he's right for Daniel walkhambe.

So we said, look, our next plan of attack will be we'll drive the route that he said, take times, take kilometers, and we'll go and see the alibi.

So we did that.

It was around about forty five minutes.

So you did that straight away, straight away.

Yeah, straight away.

It was that I was aware of it, that I thought that everything else could wait, need to prioritize.

Yeah, absolutely, So we did that, and we went to the fellow that had the multure, because you did say sorry during the conversation when he stopped at the maltitari he had a cup of tea or something and chattered to the fellow.

And we went to to the bloke that had the mulcha and he was going with his wife.

So he was with his wife and we sat down in his house.

I said, cowan turned up to get the malted you know where did you have a cup of tea?

He said, you have a couple of tea, You said, my wife nogating out to a party.

I think it was my memory.

He pulled up in the car, lowered his targeate, we put the malta in the way he went.

He never stopped at all.

No, he said, wouldn't have been any more than five minutes.

So there we picked up another at least twenty minutes of his alibi.

And there crucial things like the alibi is that's you build or you build a case on the alibi.

If the alibi stands up, you're looking at the wrong person.

But when someone's lying about their alibi, that's where it gets your interest up straight away.

Yes, And the issue was that the way he went allegedly went back home took him onto the same side that Daniel Morgan would have been.

Right.

So what we're obviously looking at in that period of time his vehicle was pulled over to site Daniel.

Yeah, he's gone to get the mulcha, didn't stay for and that multa would have been maybe eight kilometers up the road, so double laned highway might have been four minutes to drive there, five minutes there by the alibi to say that's what occurred, and six minutes the other side.

In that time the bus has gone past, or the buses broken down, replacement buses gone past.

Daniel's still there, given him plenty of time to come back.

And in hindsight we now know from his admission that what he did was he did go past, and he did see Daniel still there, and he went back up and parked into the car park of a church where he used to go to church as a sponsor that lived near him.

Palm Woods was a pastor there.

And then he walked down the back way right next to Daniel and that's where he abducted him from.

That's Cowen's own words.

And so this is a call of for one of the better words, a case theory that you're building on the timeline that what he's told you, the suspicions you've got from what he told you, and the way he revealed the information you've done that check he's ourbi doesn't check check out.

Timeline doesn't check out in terms of his travel, and you've put him in the in the scene.

That's correct here.

Yeah, so okay, Well I'm from a detect this point of view.

I'm excited on this piece of information.

Yeah.

Look, we were excited and obviously not excited to the way people would think, but we were thinking every step of the way, this fellow's more for the job than what is not.

So we went back to the station Maruchi door, got a few things sorted out, and we went back to his place of employment where he had his full drive.

He was worked at a tow truck business, and took some pictures of his tires and a few more pictures of the car.

Took some tread pats of his car to see if there was something on the other side of the road so we could say your car was definitely there.

He admitted it, but we'd like to get some pre yeah.

Anyway, So that was that.

So we went back that evening put the full report together.

Was that, you know, we don't do that for every one of the people.

For Alibis, we have put a big kick and say it's no good blah blah blah.

So we do a full report.

We're then made representation to the Major Enginet room that you know, we really think we should brief you on this person should be a main suspect.

Ken brief the the major engine room the next day.

Yep, and that was it.

It was quietly dismissed, right, okay, yeah, so just and this is like the build up to it.

But I just wanted to get sense from you what you were dealing with at the time.

So I'm looking at it.

You've gone to make this inquiry.

There's enough indicators there to get you excited about the inquiry.

And when I'm saying excited, it's not a horrendous crime, but from an investigative point of view, excited that you might be on something.

Your instinct and the information that you got I didn't check out.

You've had it got him in the vicinity.

He's opportunity, most even capability.

That's what I always look for when I'm looking for a suspect for a crime.

And he ticks all three boxes.

There, you've gone back.

You followed up the inquiries that you could make and say, people understand the working of a strikeforce, it being Queensland or down here.

All that information comes in at briefings, as you said, can brief the major incident team and said okay, this is our take on it.

You've done the report, submitted that and you would think that there would be some priority given to what needs needs to be done at that point in time.

Our report dictated that that should have been the case.

The report was very you know, my reports are reasonably concise and very clear and accurate in relation to what recommendations should and should not be done.

The recommendations on that report were very clear.

You know basically that a summarization that would be he is your main suspect.

If he's not, he should everything should be done to rule him out rather than sorry, rule him in, rather than trying to rule him out.

Yep.

And that's how it should be.

And that's every possibility that was COVID, that was electronic, that was surveillance, and yeah, they never even went and seized his computers.

So Daniel disappeared on the seventh of December two thousand and three, yourself and can spoke to Cowen about two weeks later, brief Task Force members and compile the report of their suspicions.

What we've just talked about.

In two thousand and six, I think Cowen was a game interview by the Strikeforce because it was still unsolved.

So you're looking at two thousand and three.

Detectives have gone back to speak to Cowen at two thousand and six.

I assume you weren't working on it at that stage.

No.

I was walking past the toilets on Level three at the time and was called in.

They said that they were going to get him to talk to him again.

Could I give them some hints?

I saw the biggest hint would be going to get this report that we wrote.

Yeah, and they found the report and they said, is this a reporter that yes it is, I said, and they said, well he've moved to New South Wales now, right, and I think he refused to come back for some reason anyway, so that was it.

So that was that sort of okay, So they've still got the report.

Yes, for whatever reason, the cycle's gone around, and yeah, there's a lot of inquiries going on.

I think you and I both understand that you've got an instinct on that.

I'm sure there's other cops have gone out and spoken to someone else that thinks, okay, maybe that person's good for it as well.

But anyway, two thousand and six, he's been interviewed again.

I'd take it he's denied any involvement or they couldn't gather any evidence on it.

October twenty twelve and April twenty eleven Akrainal inquest was held, so at this stage Daniel's disappearance hasn't been solved.

There's an inquest that's been held.

On the thirteenth of August two thousand, eleven eleven, after an undercover operation, police took cow In in the custody in charge.

So that's eight years later or almost eight years later.

August twenty first of August, so almost a week later, a bit over a week later, Daniel's remains were located.

Thirteenth of March twenty fourteen, Cowen was found guilty of murder and December two thousand and eight in the inquest was reopened after Cowen had exhausted his appeals.

So Daniel disappears in two thousand and three, and then eight years later Cowen gets locked up.

He made admissions there as an undercover operation, contested at court, convicted, and we've gone back to an inquest.

The whole idea of that coronal inquiry into the police investigation, that's what it was, was my understanding was sold to me because I was out of the police by then.

Yep, it sold to me that it was really to put ideas to the coroner so that he could make some changes either legislative or policy and procedures within the police to make such a thing easier for police all around, for investigating into the future.

I thought, great, that's a good thing, the healthy thing.

So Ken and I got together and we said, what would you like to see happen?

And so we both agreed basically on the fact that if regardless whether you're in the Major Incident Room, or you are not.

If you are, in our case, the two police detectives that are interested in Cowen, it should be our responsibility to investigate him one hundred and ten percent to the point where we can say he is no way in the world he is a suspect or involved in the manner prior to us letting him go, and that was where we were coming from.

That's what we wanted to put to the coroner to say that these policy procedures should be put in place so that something like this doesn't happen again.

It can't be missed.

I think I'll read out Probably the easiest way to do is read out some extracts from a media article report the findings of the inquest in twenty eighteen.

So this is as I said.

Next track from a media article reporting on the findings of the inquest twenty eighteen.

The early police rest response to the disappearance of Queensland boyd Daniel Morkham did not pay enough attention to his murderer, Brett Peter Cowen as a suspect.

That coroner says.

Findings have been handed down by State Coroner Terry Ryan on Friday just over fifteen years since the thirteen year old disappeared at a bus stop on his way to buy Christmas presents for his family in two thousand and three.

Mister Ryan noted Cowen was a known child sex offender and admitted being in the Sunshine Coast area where Daniel disappeared.

I agree with the submissions from the family and counsel assisting that more could have been done to focus on mister Cowen and mister Cowen in the early stages of the investigation, mister Ryan said.

He also said claims made at the inquest by two police officers that they were rebuffed when they raised Cowen as a suspect could not be proven.

So that last bit two police officers, I'm assuming that you and Ken and it just cannot be proven.

Also at the inquest, mister Ryan said on Friday, immediate police response was adequate and in line with policy.

So adequate.

There's a lot of interpretations there, and in line with policy.

Given Daniel was likely killed within an hour of his abduction, his death could not have been prevented by police, he said.

I think it's interesting for the public to get an insight into an investigation like that.

Police in his robust isn't.

It It is a robust situation, yes.

But people have opinions.

I think you identified there's competing interest too, whether we've got the resources and all that does.

Do you think the public are aware of what goes on in an investigation.

Look, I'm positive they don't.

Yeah.

I think that they think there's one person that takes charge.

The rest are out to do whatever they are required to do by the and they dictate back to the individual, and that person makes a decision.

It's not the case and should never be the case.

Yeah, because everyone looks through a different set of eyes, and not everybody agrees with everybody on what has not happened.

It's an unfortunate situation too, isn't it?

Like it's the ideal situation is that there's input from everyone.

Someone's got to make the final call, Like there's got to be like in the army, they in the police, there's got to be someone that makes a final call.

But it's input from everyone.

But I think what happened on that investigation, what's happened on countless other high profile investigations.

You hear them from overseas and Madeline McCain one that all blew up.

It just seems to be the nature of some high profile, high profile investigations.

I've been in a position where I'm running investigations.

I've had people put that in, but they don't fully understand the full picture of it.

So I think we'd accept that that you don't fully under someone might the inquiry that you and Ken have done.

You've got your suspicions, but someone else might have some other lines of inquiry that take priority.

So I think we give him the fair call lead a couple of other things that you've bought up or in conversations I had with you that the prolonged suffering of Daniel's family.

Yeah, and we're looking with the benefit of hindsight looking back.

But I've got to say, from what you were saying back in the early days when you speak to him, you have been proven to be right.

It could have been you were wrong, and you would accept that, as fate would have it, you were correct.

But if those lines of inquiry were followed up, perhaps the Daniel's family wouldn't have suffered and they're still suffering, but wouldn't have gone through the turmoil of not knowing what's happened, which causes adds to the pain.

It does, And I think there's two sides to that.

That's one side that any hindsight, there's not much we could do about that, so time will march on, and unfortunately he has passed, and that's terrible.

But the other issue is in that eight years you've got this terrible that has been roaming the streets.

What victims have happened between then and his arrest that nobody knows about haven't come forward, are killed and lying in a ditch somewhere that nobody has reported missing, or has been molested.

My good mate was the undercover that jumped on the plane with him from Brisbane to Perth and lived with him for some period of time.

He was telling me a story that over in Perth he tried to molest a child on the railway lines.

So he didn't stop doing what he does.

Between two thousand and three and upon his arrest, he was still committee offenses.

So we had a whole line nearly a decade of offending that we've allowed him to do because we had egos and we didn't want to rock the boat.

Yeah, when you put it that way, and looking at the type of person is I'd say one hundred percent he's committed other offenses in that period of time.

But look, there's discussing with you about this.

It just brings home how complex investigations are and all the personalities that come into play.

I still think the way investigations best practice reliant, reliant facts, reporting, accountability.

The sad thing with this is that the public's perception is that the police are all working together as one unit.

I haven't met police that I know that a crime like this don't want to solve it.

As I wouldn't suggest you didn't want to solve the investigation or anyone working on it.

But yeah, when things become skew, if and opportunities are missed.

What you described in speaking to I can only look at it from my perspective, from my experience as a homicide detective.

What you provided, they're that information I'm getting.

I was getting excited.

I think I use the word excited, but that's how I feel on the investigation.

If I was told that information, if I was looking on this, there was a lot of indicators there and it's a shame that it wasn't followed up on.

But I'll sit here comfortably saying that's a line of inquiry.

If that information has passed on the way you've relaid it here, I would have got very excited about following that up and would have given it a degree of priority.

Yeah.

Look, I think it was an opportunity missed.

Yeah, and I agree with you that you clearly there was nobody involved in that investigation didn't want the outcome to be as positive it could be, and would not do anything to overturn, you know, to turn every stone over to find the person or persons responsible.

You know, and we all talk about in the intelligence community you get A one intelligence and C two and all that sort of stuff.

We were a one, We were detectives.

The evidence we got was first hand.

Why wasn't it treated as a one evidence?

Well, it just wasn't you know a simple rule of FUNB that I go, Opportunity, capability, and motive.

They're the three.

And that's how I approached the William Tyrell thing, those three headings, and that's what I'm looking for when I'm looking at the suspect.

What you just provided there from that meeting that you had with him in two weeks.

Opportunity, capability and motive like tic tick that would have he goes straight to the top of the list.

I'm going to offer an opinion from a homicide to take this point of view what you've relaid to me, that would have just be shining a bright light.

I'd be looking looking at that and that's not me sitting here with the benefit of the pine sight.

I've always talked about there the way I approached these difficult investigations.

I saw it early in my homicide career.

When you come in as the raw kid and some of the people that I looked up to, my mentors and the people I aspired to be.

What I found was how inclusive they were at the briefings and it literally could be the most junior officer there would make the table would be open.

Now, has anyone got any thoughts?

And I watched the way they operated, and I'd like to think that that I adopted that attitude, and that's certainly what I tried to adopt, is that listen to everyone in the room, take all the information on because it can be someone's just viewpoint that might be the thing that clinches the clinches the deal.

And again, breakthroughs on investigations like that and I push this, and you've really brought me back into a criminal investigation having the chat with you.

You've got to take those wins when you can.

So when you've seen something like that, and just the way that he changed from I didn't see him.

I might have seen him type thing that could be lost on people that don't have experience, but people that have experience, to me, that was okay, that's something that interests me.

Other people might go, oh, no, he just he forgot about that before.

It's the way that you look at things.

And I thought that gave a real interesting insight into what good police do and they speak to a suspect than what you're taking into account.

And I read somewhere you talked about it briefly, but just the fact that tidy himself up and you'd seen that in pedophiles before, after they commit the offense, that's tidy yourself up and presents as this good person forget about the evil I've done.

Yeah.

Well, I've often had a bit of an argument, and we have some police psychologists.

Yeah, they're always good to argue with you.

They always tell you you just got a fatheriship.

That's yeah, that's right.

You know, I did have an argument there once with one and she said, we can't pigeonhole people.

Dennis, I said, good, you can pigeon old people.

I said, why can't you pigeono Yeah?

You know, I said, if he just rapes little boys, he's a homosexual pedophile.

He rapes little girl.

It's a head po sexual pedophile.

I mean, it's pretty simple stuff, isn't it.

And because that's what I bring that up.

Because the other person they were looking out close.

He was a fellow called Jack Waite.

Yep, he was an asexual predator, right, so he would males or females.

Yeah, but he was more Yes, there was opportunity with Daniel.

It was more hunted from Daniel.

But this this jackaway just sort of stumbled onto people like he was walking along a track and he would fine that sort of stuff.

You know.

He never sort of went out of his way as a hunter, and yet cow and did he He saw his prey, hunted the prey and got his prey.

That's what happened in every one of his occasions.

And it was he was singular minded in doing that.

He identified the victim and that was always going to be the victim.

That person there, the scary ones.

They are brethathers, aren't they.

Yeah?

Yeah, and he was.

You know, the description of the person seen laying or standing up next to Daniel was unkept, unshaven, ungroomed, and scruffy, you know what I mean.

And when we first interviewed him at his house, he was his hair was carded with will shaven, looked clean and tidy.

And then through that conversation I asked his wife and she goes, yeah, he's clean himself up a bit in the last right away.

You know, they go through the honeymoon period.

They sit there on the computer and masturbate themselves and carry on looking at pornography, getting their heightened senses up ready to do it, building up to it, and then go looking for a victim.

And then after they finished, they're quite satisfied for a period of time, and then you know, they clean themselves up and have a shower, have a shave, and don't works just that I.

Feel like setting up a whiteboard and going look, look, look if I was briefing briefing people on it.

But you know, different opinions on investigations.

It's healthy, but sometimes causes problems.

There's casualties in investigations, but the priority should always be focused on the good thing about There is no good thing about Daniel Morkam, it's such a sad thing.

But the good thing is that cow And has been taken off the streets and never never getting out and that should be the priority.

Correct.

But he will get out of parole.

You've got that strange set up in Queensland, haven't you.

Yeah.

I have no doubt you will see the light of day, Absolutely no doubt in my mind.

Yeah, well let's uh, let's well, let's we'll get the platform started started here.

But that person should never have how how he wasn't in prison for life with the case that Darren Edwards locked him up in the Northern Territory.

Absolutely, yeah, it's disgraceful.

It is, I agree.

And the whole justice system isn't a justice system.

It's a legal system that we use at the moment best we've got at the moment because there's no other there's no justice involved.

So soty, the justice should be representing society and society doesn't want someone like cow out on the streets.

That would be a travesty of justice.

I think crimes of that nature.

There just be a public outrage.

I'd like to think that would override there's we're all entitled to redemption that some people give up their right.

So you enjoying post life outside out of the cops, out of the military.

Yeah, look involved at the moment with RSL.

Yeah, you know, and that sort of stuff.

But other than that, a lot of work really for me, more work than what I was doing when I was working.

It's amazing that when you do live policing where you think your life is all consumed, you manage to find things and you think, how did I have time to do those jobs?

But look, I've really enjoyed the chat.

It's been a long time coming.

I want to thank you for your military service for the country, your service to the community as a cop, and the fact you're one of those cops that care.

And I just I mean that it means so much that people like you actually care about what's going on and you do make a difference.

So yeah, full full credit to you.

Thanks for telling this story and what you've been through, and I hope all the best for the future.

No, thanks very much, and it's been an honored to build been a privilege never nan to nine.