The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

Detective sy aside of life the average person is never exposed to.

I spent thirty four years as a cop.

For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

That's what I did for a living.

I was a homicide detective.

I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys.

Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.

The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talked to.

Some of the content and language might be confronting.

That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

Join me now as I take you into this world.

Welcome back to part two of my chat with Daniel Hogan.

Danielle grew up in one of Sydney's most affluent suburbs, but found her self caught up in a large scale dialer dealer drug syndic it.

We left part one with Daniel been sentenced three years and ten months imprisonment.

Now we're going to talk about her time in prison, how she survived, and what being behind bars taught her.

Danielle also talks about what she's doing now and how she's trying to make a difference working with a group of ex prisoners for an organization known as Confit and the new business called inside Out.

Daniel Hogan, Welcome back to Part two of I Catch Killers.

Thanks having me Okay, Well, part one was interesting, entertaining, sad, Yeah, full of my life, full of emotions and yeah, I always knew there was a story here and the different things that you've experienced in life.

For those that didn't hear part one, we talked about your childhood where you grew up in surnives and then when you were sexually sold as a teenager, which was sort of a watershed moment in your life all the way that you viewed the world.

Then we talked about poor relationship choices it's like dating advice on eye Catch Kill.

And then how you found your way into a situation where you were caught up in a not caught up.

You were working for a large scale dial a dealer, drug synding it deal in cacaine on eastern suburbs and CBD.

You got the rested and you a made a career choice that you needed to head in a different path.

But it looks like you made the choice too late and you got the rested.

And that's where we left you in part one.

So we're talking about the cell complex at Surrey Hill's police station.

So the police have come in and rested you.

You didn't get grunted bail and you were kept there.

You were telling me a story before about what it was like in the cells at Surrey Hill.

So as a cautionary tale to anyone that thinks is a glamorous life to be had in crime, tell us your experience there.

Oh, there's absolutely nothing glamorous about it.

Look, you handed a bar of soap that I'm not even sure was soap at the time, and you're given a toothbrush that you kind of is because half the time the water doesn't work in the cells.

So yeah, the story that I was telling you was basically, I think it was day three or four.

I had a knock at the cell hogan you know, you can go for your shower, and now I thought, oh, great, thanks, this is this is my opportunity finally, and I was walked to this massive hallway where back of this hallway you could see two glass glass doors with the showers behind.

And so there was a part like a partition or sort of like a part that covered those doors, but the part of that only covered sort of like your stomach.

So I'm going, what's the point in that, you know, it's not really covering all the parts that need to be covered.

So, as I'm walking towards those shower doors, I looked to my left and looked to my right, and there were four cells, and best believe, there were only men in those cells.

And I think it was a Saturday or Sunday night, which meant all of those cells were completely filled with males.

And I burst into tears, going, Okay, I really need slush, want a shower, but I do not want to shower in front of all of these men, because God knows, you know, what crimes are in here for.

So yeah, as I'm being led to led to the showers of pretty much a tea towel in my hand, there was this Cory bloke, this older male, which luckily enough, he saw what was about to go down, and he winked at me and he goes, don't worry, Sis, I've got you.

And as I step into the shower, you know the sixty seconds timer the shower turns on, and he was grabbing all the pieces of foam, which some people unfortunately call a mattress in those cells, and he started placing whatever pieces of foam he could against the glass so that none of the men could see that I was showering.

And then you know, the rest of the other cells kind of followed suits.

So it was it was a scary time, but it was actually such a beautiful thing knowing that, you know, people were actually coming together and we're trying to make me feel.

Safe, a little bit of humanity in the dark place.

Absolutely, and I followed it, definitely followed suit.

So when I returned back to my cell, you know, right around the corner, I kind of would have gotten around that.

You know, there was a above average looking girl that was in there, and you know I had another another older male sort of sing me to sleep, which was really nice.

But then I also had another girl that came into the cell quite late at night, and she had done quite a lot of time prior to that, coming off some very heavy drugs, but really took the time to actually acknowledge that I was there, I was a human being.

I'd never been there before.

And so the first thing she said was you ever been to Gel said.

Nut, How did she pick that?

Yeah?

Right, she goes, I said nah.

She goes, yeah, I didn't think so she goes, all right, she goes, don't worry, she goes, I'll help you out.

So from there, she said, of she was showing me how to make my bed and you know, sort of giving me tips and tricks that were that were going to get me through.

And then I was really sad when we set of parted ways over the next few days.

But then I luckily ran back into her at silver Water just when the time called for it.

So yeah, she definitely took care of me.

So you've spent three or four days in the cells and people don't understand the process.

You're arrested by the police.

We're talking New South Wales here.

If it was in Sydney, you had bail refuse, so you were to be held in custody and normally there's a trend holding cells at Surrey Hill's police station that you've talked about, and then you get moved to a prison if you still haven't got bail.

So that was the trip to prison.

How scared were you, because like so we sit here and laugh, but you described yourself at the time that you were arrested.

You had long blonde haird down your back.

You looked innocent, and you were going into prison.

That must have been scary for.

It absolutely just not average our jailbirds.

So I was terrified.

But you know, from watching shows like Wentworth or Oranges in You Black, you know, everything tells you that you can't show your fear, you can't appear scared, and so I just thought, you know, whatever's going to be will be, and so I did my absolute best to put on a brave face.

I got to Silver Water, which is pretty much maximum security until they figure out what they're going to do with you.

And so imagine there's so many girls on a remand there so basically remind is girls that haven't been sentenced yet, girls that have no idea what their future holds.

You've got women that have just come to like off of the streets, so they're coming down off drugs.

That is like the.

Most volatile and like heightened experience you can ever have because you don't know who you're talking to, whoever, whoever they appear to be.

In the first five minutes different a day later.

So it was terrifying because you're like, I don't know who to make connections with.

I don't know who to be open with.

Everyone always says you don't talk about your crimes, and so I was just in this state of confusion, and so I really shut down, didn't want to talk about anything.

Like you said, I had been refused bail, which meant I was constantly trying to fight for the phone, which it is a fight every time to try and get on a call you know, your lawyers or your loved ones to explains what's going on or try and find out what can happen from here.

Basically, I receive word from my lawyers that we can apply for Supreme court bail.

It's very unlikely in this instance, but they were going to try for it anyway.

So yeah, we went from there.

Because you were charged with commercial quantity drug supply half a killer.

Yeah, okay, so that's yeah, that's a potentially very lengthy sentence.

Had you got to speak to your parents at this stage by that.

Point, yeah, I think it was like ten days.

I had finally spoken to my parents, and obviously I was nothing but apologetic, and you know, all they could say was it's fine, like this is you, Now, this is up to you.

You know, we just want you to be safe, We want you to be careful.

I don't think we often consider the people left on the outside, Like I can imagine your parents obviously, and the way that you've talked about them, that they love and care for you and they're decent people, how hard it would be for their daughter to be in the situation like that, And basically the only thing you can say is yeah, be strong and look after yourself absolutely.

And this is it's a very touchy point for me, Like we can speak about everything, we can speak about my traumas and the things that I've been through, but the only thing that hits hard and hits home the most for me is the impact it had on my family and my mates.

Like, while I know it was disappointing and upsetting for them because they obviously had to wear the wrath of you know, people coming to them, employers coming to them, or extended family asking like what the hell?

Like we remember Daniella's this you know, inspiring young kid, and now Watch's in jail.

So I feel sick that I wasn't there.

To be the one to explain, you know, why I was the way that I was, and that it had nothing to do with my family or nothing to do with my upbringing.

It still hurts so much now, is because every time I try and communicate that with my family or even try and bring up the last few years, my Mum will cry on cue every time, which I can see anything in this world.

I could probably see someone murdered in front of my eyes, but seeing my mother cry, I can't.

And so yeah, it sucks because the last thing I ever wanted to do was disappoint them.

But it almost hurts even more the understanding that they have, and every every time we speak about this, they will always say the same thing.

They always say that you had to go through what you what you did in order to become the person that you are now, or to do what you do for for work, or to do what you love, you know, And it almost sucks because it kind of discounts what they went through, you know, and everything that they did for me, because they did so much foremen I was inside.

But it's never about them.

It's always like, we did what we had to do and we got through it.

But all we're worried about is you?

And I think that that's what the definition of being a parent is.

Well, this is a definition that's a burden of being a parent too, isn't it.

Yeah.

Yeah, they've got you got your for life and unfortunately, I'm sure there were moments when they they like but you.

Know what, they did their best and when I mean their best, they went above and beyond.

It's just hard and so many people that have been inside and they look at the pain that they've caused people close to them and all that.

But we're going to get you surviving through prison at this stage.

So you've gone in there, had the media hit in the prison, so they are aware that you were the Kcaine dealer from the and suburbs.

Yeah, that's when the media originally hit.

Luckily enough for me, I didn't have any awareness to it because I wasn't able to hear or read or see anything.

So my family and friends didn't want to relay anything.

Yep, obviously didn't want to stress me out.

So luckily enough, I actually received Supreme Court bail two weeks after I was arrested.

I was then on bail for two years just before.

We get out of there because you've mentioned another thing and I don't think we've covered on the podcast that the lady that you met in the Surrey Hills and this is a stroke of good luck.

So we talked, Calma, this might have been your karma.

She was in Silver War.

The prison, thank god for that.

And what did she say and do for you?

So as soon as so you're kept in yourselves for a few days, and then as soon as I was released sort of onto the compound, this is like dumping ground.

This is this was scary shit, you know, And again didn't know who to talk to.

There were people trying to stand me over for my food.

There were people trying to stand me over for the way that I look, trying to date me, trying to sexualize the whole situation.

Whatever, and anyway, I was walking up to the office one of these days, and thank god I saw her, because she immediately ran towards me and then said to all of her like everyone that she had known there, she goes, this is my girl, she goes, I know her, She's a beautiful person.

She goes, none of you fuck with her.

And she was just she was someone in the system who is so known and is so respected that that was such a sigh of relief for me.

How I can only imagine how it made you feel, and like walking into the yard for the first time might just yeah, it must have been so scary for it.

It's nothing that high school can even prepare for, Like.

Well, you went to four different high schools.

That can be scary your first day at Playlightech, but this is it was another level exactly.

None of that was like you just never thought you were going to get bashed or sexually assaulted or you know, this was an entirely different ballgame.

This was arguing with idiots like this was a you don't you really nothing prepares you for this moment because you just you don't know how to act.

If I was too articulate, if I word it things some ways, girls would then get offended and think that I'm trying to trying to offend them using bigger words, or you know, if I was trying to speak sort of street or I was trying to act a certain way, then girls were smart enough to figure out that I was acting or there was no middle ground.

You know, it sends you into an absolute frenzy.

For someone that was still trying to build her personality.

You're going, holy shit, like I don't know, I don't know who to be, how to be?

Yeah, yeah, Well we had going back a couple of years, Mindy Satori, who does a lot of work in jail activism and also like helping prisoners before they've gone in, giving a not a cheat sheet, but giving instructions on how people should behave when they go in the jarl because people like yourself, like the little things that you would have been taught by your mate when you first met her at the Sydney Police Cells would have been invaluable for you, like going into prison, how they react.

And you've been through the system now say you know, but when you first walked in there, you wouldn't have had any idea.

Absolutely no idea.

And this is why I'm honestly, I'm so grateful now for initiatives that are being set up since my release.

So we were going to mention later, but I'll say it now.

So I've recently been working with a coalition keeping women out of prison, and the work that they've been doing over the last several months is just inspiring because they're finally acknowledging the importance of the lived experience model and bringing real voices in real time, bringing these women into situations, into policies and government level staff of saying, you know, this is what they need and why they need it is because of xyzed.

So seeing all of that stuff come out now and being a part of it, it's amazing.

Well, we'll talk more in depth about that, and also the aspect of women in prison that are often the forgotten prisoners compared like the public's perception is that it's all jails are filled with men, but there's a lot of women in prison, and I think a number of women in prison is increasing as well as I understand that.

So we'll talk about that you got bail.

So two weeks you spent at silver Water minus a couple of days in the luxury resort that the Surrey Hill police cells.

How did it feel when you got bail?

Honestly, it was my saving grace.

I'm not a godly person, I'm not a religious person, but I remember the night before my Supreme Court bail, I was on the top bunk of a two person cell.

Beneath me was a severe schizophrenic and we were both screaming out loud this night, and I thought, stuff, while she's screaming, I'm gonna pray to God, which I haven't done, you know, since I was a kid, And so I basically said to God, if you grant me this opportunity, you know, I'm going to do everything I can to turn my ways around and to try and you know, make the most of it.

I'm grateful for the fact that although I was sentenced and sent to jail two years later, if I had gone to jail in those two years, I was not mentally prepared.

I was mentally health wise, I was not ready, meaning I was so sick to the point where I've got suicidal tendencies, I've got depression, I've got anxiety.

Rather la la lah on paper, you know, I know that I would not have lasted.

So I'm grateful that I had the opportunity to spend those two years out of jail, to redefine myself and to actually prepare myself for what came next.

Because in that two years, as you would entertain some degree, I hope that you would know, with the charges and the strength of the police case, the possibility is that you're going to go inside.

So two years out.

Did the world look different after the first two weeks in there when you got out, did you go why did I do this?

Why have I put myself in this position?

What was your attitude?

Absolutely like, naturally you have that why did I do this?

How did I get here?

How can I fix it?

But I think in such an early stage, I came to the conclusion that I can't fix it.

I'm the fixer of my life.

I always have been.

I've always been the one.

Yeah, I've always been the one that pulls myself out of shit or just has to get by.

But I think I came to a point where I was like, you know what, although everyone's being so hopeful and thinking that I'm going to get home detention, or that I'm going to get let off because it's my first offense, whatever else, I was like, I just had this internal feeling that I'm like, I'm going to jail.

And I didn't hate it at first.

Obviously you resist the idea thinking oh my god, jail's horrible, but I was going, you know what, it's either death, rehab, romain a junkie or Joe.

Okay, So, even at that stage, with the threat of a lengthy jail sentence.

You could see the positives in them always.

I think that's just kind of who I was raised to be.

But you know, unfortunately your lawyers need to make it the worst of the worst outcome.

So I was being told what I was getting charged for, so I think it was like a maximum of like something stupid like fifteen years.

Yea, you know, And in my mind I was going, no, like that's not going to happen, No way.

I was preparing for like five years.

But I didn't know what those five years look like because no one no one really understands or explains the system correctly, right, because no one truly knows the outcome.

So people can't give you false hope, but at the same time, they can't give you the worst of the worst out.

Well, there's precedence, but all cases are judged individually.

Yeah, you can't really anticipate what the sentence.

But seeing what you had, I would have an expectation you were going to go inside.

What did you do to prepare yourself in those two years.

You already know?

So look, I just tried to upskie myself.

I tried to do whatever I thought I could to.

Let's say, like look good in the magistrate's eyes.

So I was completing courses about self development or rehabilitation.

I was working pretty much full time.

I was trying to start up businesses.

I was hanging out with more positive people like whatever I could.

But then several months out of my sentencing, I thought, Okay, if I'm going to jail, I need to I need to get ready, and so I did that.

I connected with an old friend who is a personal trainer, and he's a boxer.

So we started.

Yeah, we started boxing.

Sorry I'm laughing because we've already had this joke when we're speaking the other days, when you were telling me how you were boxing and getting prepared for prison, and I couldn't but help make reference to the movie Getting Hard with Will Ferrell and Kevin Hart.

If you haven't seen the movie, you probably don't understand the joke.

But if you have seen the movie, you'll understand.

This was Will Ferrell was being sent to prison.

He was a nerdy accountant, and Kevin Hart was teaching him be a tough guy to survive in prison.

Oh.

Look, and they definitely got me prepared.

Like, while I did you know, sort.

Of did you watch that movie while you were preparing did that movie come out.

It would have been around about the must.

Have been on a subconscious level.

I must have thought, this is what I need to do, because I started the boxing classes, but I had to take it a step further.

So I think I don't.

Know if it was how to make a shive for yeah.

No, Look, I think he got really shitty tatoos, like maybe on his bum or something.

So I didn't go that.

I got really shitty hand tatoos, thinking, you know the gel demographic, get some really ugly tatoos.

No one will picked me for the first time.

Oh God, but I look, it sounds like you made the most you could in those two years that you were out, and I would imagine you, Yeah, you probably became closer to your family.

Your family would have been really struggling with the thought that you're going to go inside and not having any idea what's going to happen when you go inside.

That's it's a scary place.

Yeah, And that was the hardest part was I couldn't read my family because and my friends because at the same like, everyone around me was putting on a brave face because they felt like they had to because they all thought that I was the only one going through this, that this is me.

But like seeing how much it was impacting everyone without them trying to show how I was impacting them sucked the most.

Ye.

So although on paper like I was completing all these things and I was doing whatever I could, I was still suffering with like severe PTSD from my previous relationship that I hadn't dealt with.

I was dealing with a drug addiction.

I was still like, they were still all of these things that parts, yeah, that I couldn't shake.

But this is why I kind of called jail my saving grace is because genuinely, I think going to jail was probably one of the best things I could have done.

Yeah, that's an interesting thing because I and yeah, this is where the system probably works, because if you didn't get a custodial sentence, you would have you would have been nervous leading up to it.

But if you were allowed to just walk free, maybe you could have fallen back into old habits, or you wouldn't have learned the lesson hard enough.

To be honest, it just would have proven what the rest of like my prior life had proven, and that was I get away with bloody matter like now, accountability, no accountability whatsoever.

I've always just managed to skim past in life, you know, call it winging it or whatever.

But I've never for a lot of the things that I've done, I've just always managed.

To get away with.

Well, good on you for recognizing it, because a lot of people date ye self reflection as you locked up in the cell.

But no, but that that shows that there is a development and is something that you've recognized, because yeah, if you keep getting away with things that there's no lessons learned.

Is it exactly?

And look to be honest, it was no no accreditation to corrective services at all.

I definitely put in the work myself.

I may I made that decision that I wanted to change, that I was going to turn my life right.

You pleaded guilty, Yeah, okay, that's sentencing.

You turn up with your toothbrush, that's it.

I actually bring your tooth bras.

I turned up with about five pairs of undies on and inside one of those I had maybe like a tiny piece of paper like a posted note size, with all of my numbers scribbled on them.

I learned that from some of my friends prior to Yeah, the girl that I'm speaking.

You learned that from Getting Hard the movie.

I learned that from Getting On.

Yeah, but.

I wasn't.

Look, you're never prepared for a thing like that.

You never prepared for you know, the outcome, let alone, what's going to happen in that In that initial courtroom, the conversations that it had, it was an absolute shit show.

It was adjourned several times, which really threw a spanner in the worst.

You're in the mindset, Okay, today might be the day, and then it gets adjourned, and that's good, but yeah, it's bad in the way too.

So the first time I was like, cool, I've got more time.

Second time I was like, yeah, I'm getting over it.

Third time I was like send many dollar at this point, like you so, because it's it's heightening everyone around you lack emotions And is today that the last day that we see.

Her and your family and close friends would have been there?

Yeah?

Again, how hard is that for them?

Again?

Everyone everyone put on such a brave face and it killed me, Like it.

Something in a theme, let's.

Call it, in my entire life, in my family and whatever.

Because everyone is always so focused on the positives.

We don't talk about the hard shit.

We don't talk about the real things.

So that's always been an issue that I've struggled with and something that I'm still actively trying to work on now is creating those really uncomfortable conversations.

Yeah, but having them they're important, and we did, We truly did start having them before I went to jail, which is important.

But then yet on days like sentencing, you're going just say something like tell me how you really feel, please, But everyone just wanted to make sure that look, due to my mental health history, that I was okay, first and foremost, that I understood what was going on and that everything was fine, that no matter what the outcome was, that they loved me.

So that's a messaging.

I'm just breaking it down.

In my mind.

I can imagine walking in there with your parents.

You're probably traveling together and making small talk.

Get there and walk in there, and then it comes to the court start and your mum's probably give your cuddle, might be for the last last time for a very long time, and then you got to go sit and see what happens.

Yeah, the hardest, Like I can laugh about it now, but the hardest part was when we were driving in the last time my dad.

My dad's my hype man, right, so's he's the driver and he's trying to get the tunes going and building the excitement and whatever.

Put on this one song.

And I always look on the bright side.

No, it was something from the lyrics were basically like come home, like you're coming home, like i'll see I'll see you soon.

And then the was that you didn't like.

I didn't So as soon as I think that was the first thing I said when I jumped Oh was Bertie whatever?

Yeah, one of Bertie's lyrics was something about coming home.

And then the first time, so i'd been probably like ten or eleven days that I hadn't spoken to my parents for as soon as I jumped on the phone to my dad, I was.

Like, well, those lyrics are right.

It didn't quite cut it, didn't you.

Okay, So you're there, You've gone through the court proceedings.

There's a lot of stuff that goes on, and that it's hard when you're sitting there and they're talking about your life, your future, the things that you've done, and you're sitting there and almost like a side piece to what's going on.

We've everyone talking about you, not so much to you, and then the judges you've been found guilty or you've played guilty, and the judge has to hand down the sentencing.

What sentence did.

You get again, Because, like you just said, because you're kind of sitting on the sidelines of your entire life, I couldn't really understand what was happening to get complicated with and some of the terminology they use.

I'm like, why dumb it down for a person?

Please, you know, hold up a sign, please, you've got this.

I need subtitles at that point.

But I just remember this, this pivotal moment of my barrister speaking to the magistrate and saying, like you could you could tell that we were really, you know, trying to pull every string we could at that point, because my magistrate turned around saying, you know, if you send her to jail, there's going to be a target on her back because of all the media attention.

I was like, as if that's something you'd mentioned in a court room.

But anyway, your defense said said that to the magistry.

Like basically put out all the media attention that was that was put out prior to that saying, do you realize what you're doing to this young girl?

If you're if you're about to send it at a prison, like you're basically putting her in harms way, And so I remember hearing that and going hmm, like that's going to be on the news.

And then I looked over at the magistrate and then before I knew it, the magistrate was handing down my sentence, wouldn't even look at me, and all I heard was four years, ten months, and in my mind, I was like, oh my god, I'm going to jail for four years.

It's all like, I was like, what I There's no emotion you can even describe at that point when you hear something like that.

I think I let out like a nervous laugh.

So I was like, oh shit, like this is okay, plot.

Twist laughing at yourself.

Yeah, I'm going, oh okay, what now?

You know?

This is insane.

So from there it was, honestly, I think I felt like I was in a dream state, like it didn't feel real at all.

I remember looking to all of the seats, so my family, some of my friends were there.

Everyone was crying, obviously, and then I remember looking at my barrister.

He walked over to me and he just started thrying cash, and I was like, what is happening right now?

But it's because no one tells you again you need physical money, Like you can't go in with a credit card.

You know, you need cash on you to put anything in your account.

So he's throwing me whatever he could.

I'm trying to catch all of it.

And then I had two officers walk over to me, handcuff me, and then walk me past all of my friends and family to basically in the smallest elevator I've ever seen, to then go beneath the beneath the Dunning Center Court cinema.

Your family say there when you've been walked past in handcuffs.

I don't even remember words, to be honest, I just remember I kind of like flung my arms around them in handcuffs to hug them.

Wasn't allowed to do that, so arms were removed instantaneously because it was during COVID as well, mind you.

Yeah, so yeah, that happened.

And then I just remember my dad kind of nodding as if to say, like, you'll be all right.

I think, out of everyone, I think my dad and I were kind of the only two that recognized that I was going to jail, that I was going to be sentenced to present so kind of gave me the look of it's okay.

And then yeah, I walked into the tiniest elevator I've ever seen, and I just remember handcuffs in front of me.

I look at the handcuffs.

I look down.

I'm in stilettos, and I just started laughing because I was like, this is a weird shit.

Ever, I'm like, what what is happening right now?

You know you can't write this stuff?

Yeah.

So yeah, from there, I was thrown into a dry cell, strip searched all the rest of it, and that that was a pivotal moment for me.

Everyone always says it's you know when you're arrested, or you know, when you spend a few days in jail whatever.

No, no, no, That that was the moment that I was like, this shit needs to change now.

Yeah.

Yeah, when the sentence where you're looking down the track of spending news in prison.

Yeah, I just thought about things really quickly and I was like, you know what, no one's coming, Like, no one's coming to save me.

This is up to me now.

That's the thing that I don't think and it's important that people have experienced talk about it because I've seen the look of shock on people's faces when they're actually going to jail.

What And yeah, I explained to it, and I explained it in hard terms sometimes to people.

No, your life, as you've known, that has ended at this point in time, and now everything you do will be controlled by someone telling you what to do at what time, and you have no idea.

But that's that's the consequences of going to prison.

And it was kind of like a double edged sword, right because, like you said, like it's that acceptance that nothing that happens from here on out is up to you.

But at the same time, it kind of is like your mentality is up to you.

Fair Enough, you're told when to eat, went to sleep, when to go to the whatever.

But your mentality of how you drive this entire several like next few years, that's all up to you.

You can either remain a victim, you know.

I experienced so many girls in there that were so mad at the system, was so mad at their friends or whoever they thought that they were in there because of And I would always rebuttal with like no, like you're in here because of you, Like yeah, and I recognize, like I got myself here and although I have all this support on the outside, they're not the ones that are in here every single day going through what I'm about to experience, Like I either had to man the fuck up and decide that whatever I do from here on out is completely up to me, or I can just sort of give in.

Yeah, well, that that mindset is probably dictates how you're going to do the time and how you are when you come out, if you come out.

So you're on the on the prison van heading heading to prison.

How did that feel when you realized it wasn't sort of the silver Water experience where you're expecting to get bail.

You know, this is now your life for a substantial period of time.

How did you feel?

It was interesting?

I think because I was not prepared, but I had a taste to it prior.

I kind of knew boxing train, Yeah, I was ready, you know, gloves, I don't know.

I kind of I sort of knew what to expect.

I knew the conversations I was going to be having.

I knew how to handle the girls.

What I wasn't expecting was the fact that it was during COVID and it was during Christmas and years, so I didn't my cell for over a month, and that was the scariest part.

Were you in the cell on your own, which.

Was even scarier I would have preferred.

I love my own company.

I'm good, You're safe, you know, but you're always you're put in with someone that you have no idea about who.

We're sharing with without giving up the name, Yeah I was.

I was putting with a girl who we actually ended up becoming really close friends at the end of it.

Well, once we separated, once we left parted ways.

But at the time she was coming off a lot of drugs when we were thrown in the cell together, so I didn't hear from her for the first I'd say, like five six days.

Yeah, you just got this body, basically a.

Literal body, like I just checked that she was breathing every couple hours.

She just slept.

But then when she woke up, one of the funniest people I ever met, you know, just so down to earth, like same things, so so loved life.

Just so I wouldn't I wouldn't say innocent, but just had this thing about her where she made every moment important when she was awake.

Yeah, you know, And so we had a great time, like all through Christmas.

We would never forget this time.

We freaked all the screws out.

One time, I think it was Christmas Eve.

We had baby powder.

Yeah, and so we had a we had a plate out one day and they obviously, like the officers knew what I was in for.

So we put all the baby powder on the plate and we started coming it up.

Yeah, and they would and they would come and do night checks, but they'd walk to the veranda side, so you've kind of got like a massive like glass screen.

View of our skirls.

And so they walked past and we're pretending that we were doing lines off this off this red plate, and so they ran in and like tried to cause the scene and we're just like, ah, it's maybe powder like sucked in.

Like little things like that.

It seriously gets you by.

Well, I suppose you got to find the joy in those little little.

Moments you do, and there's so many of them in there.

When you're out with the population, And did you have to adjust your attitude and absolutely what sort of changes did you have to make?

We both did, and that was that's what kind of became the beautiful thing.

Is like when we'd returned back to our cell, like we could be ourselves, you know, but when we're out there, we'd have to be brave, we'd have to be short, we'd have to be quick witted with you know, remarks or that type of shit, Like you just had to be defensive all the time.

And that was a sad reality.

Like for me, it was one thing, but for my roommate, for example, she was Indigenous, but she was white indigenous, so she's fighting battles that I couldn't even handle, you know, her own people weren't even accepting of her.

So even seeing that, I was going, fuck, like, I have it hard, but there's other people here that have it so much harder.

So that's the thing that people don't recognize, is like, and kind of what made it easier for me is recognizing that every single person that was on that compound, we're all fighting our own battles.

We would all go back into our cells of an afternoon and be like, oh my god, I just had to do that, including the bullies, including the standovers, including you know, all of these people that seem like the toughest and the roughest, like they're putting on the front as well, they're.

All just people and then going back in the cell and just like they can switch off the Yeah, did you experience or encounter violence in there?

Absolutely?

Those those boxing classes definitely came to.

Use, right, Okay, so health your hands up.

Not for only only for one like serious occasion, I'd say so.

From silver Water, I got moved to Windsor yep, and that was easily my scariest time.

So that was minimum security, but that meant you're put on a compound like an area of about three hundred women, and anyone can imagine three hundred women what that looks like.

You know, it was crazy.

There was just honestly, it felt like you're in year ten again.

There's so much bitchiness, there's rumors, there's whatever.

So day one of me being there, I'm pushing through this massive thing of all my clothes and all of the newcomers with me.

It was lockdown.

So all of the girls were looking out through their rooms obviously like the new fresh meat on the compound, and so everyone had sort of seen who I was whatever else.

And then the next day, I'm walking around.

Luckily I made a friend because I lived in the same area as her at the time, so we became very chummy very quickly, and she was honestly, I believed at one point she was my guardian angel for what came next.

So anyway, we're walking around one day and I think this was the second day, and I had one of my coal offenders come up to me.

And I didn't know a that two coal fenders could be in the same jail at the same time.

But also I didn't know that she disliked me the way that she did, so we never really got along like in the past.

But it was very high by there was nothing, you know, too serious.

So I walked up to her being friendly, being nice.

Who I am, Oh, I can't believe we're here together, blah blah blah, And she was met that same energy, exactly the same, Oh, I'm so happy you're here, Come and see me later this or the other.

Continue to walk anyway, Later that afternoon, I'm doing laps outside.

You're walking around this massive compound outside, right, and I walk past this group of girls and I hear barking like barking like dogs, and I look at my friend and I was like, that was weird?

Is that for you?

And she goes, listen, I've been here for six months.

She goes, I've never been barked out.

She goes, have you done something wrong?

And I laughed.

I was like, we've obviously all done something wrong, like we're all here, right, VALI valid right?

And she's like no, I mean are you a dog?

Are you a giver?

And I was like, what the Like what are you talking about?

And she goes, have you given anyone up?

Have you done something wrong?

Said no, like I'm here, I'm doing my time, Like what are you talking about?

Couldn't understand anyway cap happening.

We'll walking around.

Other girls were barking or making just smart remarks, and I was like, now I've had enough of this because you're walking around with your blood pressure through the roof.

You're going you just don't know what's going to happen.

I'm looking behind my back if someone's gonna dog shot me.

You know, you have no idea anyway.

So I walk up to one of the girls that's kind of like seen as like the head honcho in the jail, and I said, what's up, like I don't understand what's going on.

I just got here.

You know, girls are saying XYZ.

And she goes, oh, we hear that.

You're a give up, Like you're a dog.

You gave up the syndicate.

And I laughed because I was like, are you joking?

Like I'm doing the most amount of time that any of the girls are doing.

That doesn't that doesn't make sense in any way, shape or form.

She's like, well, that's just what we've heard, so we're going to act accordingly.

That's scary.

I'm the statement going.

You can't argue with idiots, right, So I'm going, how do I how do I handle this situation?

And then I've always been told like, if your old school jail, you're old school criminals.

Whatever you read statements, if that's how you find out if someone's a dog.

So I was laughing because I was going, we can all, I said, We'll go to the office.

They can print out our eighteen thousand page brief.

We can all sit there and sing Kumbaya and read like my brief because I've done absolutely nothing wrong.

And she's like, I don't want to hear it.

You're a dog.

We know you're a dog.

It came from above.

So I'm going, what is anyway cool?

Kept walking and I was like wrapping my head around this for the rest of the afternoon, going something's going to come from this.

I don't know how to handle it.

And I'm crying to my friend, going have you ever dealt with like this my first day?

Angail?

Like what, you know what?

There's no TV show that prepares you for me.

It's like what do I do?

And she goes, look, all we can do is try and talk some sense into this girl that was like higher up or she said, you need to talk to your cold fender because obviously it's come from that.

Yeah, And so tried to talk to my cole Fender wouldn't have a bar of it.

She was very much like set in her ways that that was the case.

She was adamant that I was a dog.

But mind you, she'd also been there three months prior to me, so she'd built friendships and.

She made a name.

Yeah, She's got a crew around her.

So she told all of them, and so I'm stressing out at this point, but I was like, you know what, I can't I have to show face, Like I can't hide in my room.

There's nothing I can do about it.

So I'm still walking, walking, walking, and then this random girl who never met walks up to me and she goes, are you Doneyelle?

I said yep.

She goes, all right, you've got sixty seconds to put yourself into protection or else we're going to put you there.

All right, this girl's twice my size.

I'm going I don't know how to handle this at the moment.

And then mind you, because it's a drama, girls drama, everyone starts swarming, so there's like fifty people on her side.

I had only made two friends.

This day, so.

Right, so I'm turning around and I'm going, oh god, what do I do here?

And both of my friends are like, yeah, you're okay, we've got you.

So I turn into freaking Wolf of Wall Street at this point because everyone's always told me you don't show your fear, like, just stand up for yourself, stand your ground.

So I start banging on my chest.

I'm like, I'm not going anywhere, like I fucking leave it, right, and then this girl starts counting sixty fifty nine fifty eight, and all of her friends around her, for some reason, start singing.

That what's it that rspc CT that's what do you know?

There is that song?

Don't know what?

Okay?

That And then we are fairly don't know, just trying to create that like weird intimidation.

So she starts counting, they start singing.

I'm looking around for whoever I can, being like, oh mind you, we're the only white girls here in this situation.

So start counting, start counting.

Get to one, I'm still screaming the same thing.

I'm not going anywhere.

I was like, bring your friend out.

I said my issues with her, not with you, da da da da wouldn't hear it.

I think she got to like four or three, someone jumps out from behind her and just punches me in the mouth.

So then as that happens, I sort of swing to the left, see the girls behind me.

I go like this is if to be like this is happening.

And then it just swarms like it turns into like a freakin' footy scrum.

It was insane.

And then this is mind you, this is right out the front of all of the stuff, like the stuff office.

So I'm trying to scream as that as I can, being like maybe it'll cause something they'll realize.

That something's happening.

It'll get broken up.

I wasn't ready for this, right, no way, anyway, get here in the mouth, turn back around, start swinging, doing whatever I can.

I get hit in the back of the head.

I fall.

I was getting kicked in the ribs or whatever else.

And then I don't know if I passed out.

I don't know what happened.

All I remember is it gets broken up.

I'm mid panic attack at this point, meaning crying so hard there's snot in my mouth, like I'm horrified.

Oh your big girls, what's up with your Oh?

The audacity?

Right?

How do I be scared?

And I just remember being handcuffed, hands beha my back.

I'm sitting on the ground and this one officer lifts me up by the handcuffs.

He goes, you're safe, You're okay, there's nothing wrong with you.

We're moving you away now.

He goes, stop fucking crying, You're okay, be proud.

So I put my head off, catching my snot in my.

I put my head up and I walk out, and I'm just sort of like nodding my head as if to say like I'm okay, Like you didn't you didn't you get me.

Yeah, anyway, I get moved.

To segregated cells, and by then I let everything out.

I'm losing it because I'm going I don't know what happens from here.

You know that was minimum security, so I either stay there or I go to protection.

I'm not going to protection, no fucking way.

So I'm losing it waiting for you know what's happened.

Next, the governor comes in.

She sits down with me, and she goes, look, I've done this for fifteen years.

She said.

I see this a lot.

She goes, you know, pretty girl like you comes in.

Everyone has something to say about it.

She goes, you're practically the home and away in this situation.

You know drama.

They love that.

And she said, so what do you want to do.

I said, you're not putting me back out there because I will die and I know that.

I said, I'm not looking over my shoulder for the rest of my sentence.

I said, but you're not sending me to protection either.

There's no way.

I've done nothing wrong.

Why should I go there?

I said, so what are you going to do?

And she goes, okay, She goes, I'm going to send you to maximum I go maximum security.

I was like, what with the killers and the girls that are doing you know, ten years plus.

I go, that sounds like a great idea.

And she goes, before you say anything, she goes, this is a good thing you.

She goes, there's only like thirty girls to each unit.

She said, it's drama free.

Girls just want to do their time.

They don't give a shit.

There's no drama.

There's you know, it's a lot less than what you just experience.

So she said, please trust me, I'm going to send you there.

And then from there I got thrown in there with no shoes, no property, nothing, And then from there it was that, honestly, was probably the best time I.

Had right in the in the maximum maximum security.

Well what a story.

But like, full credit for you for standing your ground on it, and that that's a test.

Everyone that goes to prison talks about the tests.

At some stage it's going to come, and I'm.

Just glad it came earlier on.

Yeah, yeah, but it's a horrible thing to ye walk around with that when you went to maximum security, did you change your attitude or how did you survive in prison?

In there, like not just physically mentally, emotionally was what was the secret?

I think I just came to the conclusion when I was in minimum, although it was such a short stay, I really tried to blend in.

I did whatever I could to sort of lay low, because that's what everyone tells.

You don't get involved in the drug game, don't you know, stick out too much.

Just try to do it.

I've never been that great girl.

I've never fit in, whether I wanted to or not.

I've just it's not my personality, it's not my looks nor whatever.

Just never fit in.

So recognized that didn't work.

So I was like, you know what, if I can't fit in, I'm going to stand out.

I'm going to stand up.

Fuck it.

I started recognizing very early on that there were all these.

Inconsistencies in women's prisons.

So I'm going to make sure I'm the one that tries to work on them or fix them.

And that's what I did.

Although I was extremely limited in maximum security, they moved me several months later to minimum up in Kempsey, and that's where I really started to put the work in let's call.

It and agitating for prisoner's rights and we should change this and change that is that the type of thing you're talking.

About, absolutely like it was.

So you became the loud voice in the yard.

I became a delegate absolutely, so I was known at the start, I was known as a scrim which is basically like a screw criminal.

So you basically work with the officers.

But I thought, you know what, if you're that small minded to put me on that and make me out as if to be like I'm against all of you and I'm the one that's trying to actually get things running for you, guys here, fucking try me.

You know, I more or less one of things done for myself.

I recognized that I didn't have anything available to me.

I didn't have any education, self development program, nothing, nothing, not even a gym facility.

So I'm going, Okay, I want all of these things for myself.

But then I'm looking behind me, I'm going none of these like, no one has anything available.

Women, men get a thing.

We're the minority.

So I'm going, okay, how can I fix this, not only like a personal level, how can I fix with everyone else here?

Just a couple of things.

That was a clever strategy in your mind to change.

Okay, Well, I can't blend in.

Well, I'm going to stand out and just be who I am.

That's a yeah, it's a good strategy there because other people might have just well, I've just got to keep my head down even more, and that was not going to work with end in tears again, not that you cry, you just have.

You just had a running nose when they bashed you.

Okay.

So, and I know this is something in our conversations before the podcast, very important to you about women in prison and how we could make it a better place.

I acknowledge I was native to it until it's been pointed out by quite a few women that have come on the podcast that we don't get the type of things that are available to men in men's prisons.

So talk us through that, the union delegate there, How could it.

Be improved in so many ways more than one, But to be honest, just education and upskilling, like I remember, so, don't get me wrong.

There were courses available, but they were very like mindset or just minimal, Like there were booklets that we were all doing that was coloring in like stuff that you'd give to a child.

And I'm going, you're literally receiving women you're receiving a captured audience that are sober for the first time in their lives, that are away from every destruction that they know, every responsibility that they know.

You've got them in their truest, most like pure form possible.

So why not do something with it?

You know?

And I met I became close with so many women that were doing like six seven, eight years and whenever the like previous to me coming they were being told in terms of like tape courses or any form of education that they were either not doing enough time to feel a course.

Or they were doing too much time.

What does that even mean?

Too much time?

You know?

So it aggravated me so much.

And then sitting in these programs as well, where everything was about mindset and being mindful, like mindfulness, Like these women would have had no idea about any of this stuff prior to incarcerations.

So it's like, why cant you just pick up at a place of like, oh, let's learn how to meditate when we should be learning.

Okay, why should you learn to meditate?

Yeah, it's got to be more and more depth to it.

Perhaps just deal with the initial trauma or like what what is it that makes you tick or what is it that has upset you that has made you commit this crime?

You know, no one, no one is passionate enough about getting to the root cause of this is why you did what you did.

Let's talk about.

It, and you've got to sort that base out then build on from there, absolutely.

Because otherwise you're just doing what my entire childhood does and you slap in a band aid over it, going here's a simple fix.

But that's exact who what drugs do of?

Okay, we won't acknowledge what's happened to you.

We can admit that you're here because of a shit situation.

But oh, here's how you deal with it with a couple breath work.

Or yeah, I do get it.

There needs to be more depth to it.

Then you've got to get to the root cause of the problem and then build from there.

Yeah, and I get it.

While there needs to be some form of punishment level, all it is is punishment in there.

It's not rehabilitation or rehabilitation means dealing with the root cause and then moving forward.

My view on the prisons have changed since I've been out of the cops, because before I do the job, get a case investigator, put the person before the court and then move on to the next case, not really thinking what happens here.

But my eyes have been opened on this podcast and people have met since I've left.

The cops very much say about the world's a better place and this is not all airy fairy stuff.

If we want to reduce crime, stop people reoffending, So if people go into jail, if we can create people to come out better versions of themselves, everyone's a winner.

And I spoke to some victims of crime about that, like, is this getting soft on prison?

And the narrative is no, it's getting smart.

It's being smart and everyone, well not everyone.

A lot of people are going to Most people are released from prison, so they're going to come back into society.

So don't we want to give them the tools that they can function in society.

And the other thing is about punishment, And this is sort of changement review too, And I'm not a softy, bleeding heart that the punishment is being taken away from society.

We don't have to have them in breaking rocks and eating bread and water.

We should be trying to help these people so they don't reoffend.

Is that the sort of narrative viewer on because it's something that I'm passionate about now.

I honestly believe that is a better way of fighting crime than by the time I turned up after someone's dead and we put handcuffs on someone and put them before the court.

I completely agree with you.

I honestly think sending a person to jail does not reduce the rates of recidivism, doesn't reduce the rates of reoffending.

Like you're sending a person to a place where they're basically put in Middle Earth.

They're not being held accountable for their actions at all because they don't speak about them.

There's you know, oh you've done this, okay, so we're just going to leave you in a place for however many months, years, whatever.

But everything's done for them.

So I'm not saying it's not easy, but I'm saying it's not hard either.

Yeah, like you're in Middle Earth.

There's no accountability, there's no rehabilitation, there's nothing.

And I think you've also acknowledged that there needs to be that deterrent to the crime.

But the deterrent is going to prison.

That was the thing that changed you.

You're saying, well, it's probably the best thing in hindsight that happened to me.

But if I understand what you're saying, that's because the work that you've done on yourself.

You don't think the system itself is set up to Yeah, you're one of the lucky ones or the ones, one of the people that put work into yourself, But we want to make it available for everyone.

Is that what you're saying?

Absolutely, and no discreditation to corrective services and what they're trying to do.

I understand it comes down to a resource level and things that they have available to them, but more things do need to be more available because you're leaving people to their own devices.

Like, it's not I changed because I made that decision that that's not my life, that I'm not going to spend the rest of my life in and out of jail.

Unfortunately, most women that go to jail do.

I've literally lost friends, people that I thought were more normal than normal than me.

I ran into in jail, and now I find out that they're still in jail and have continuously gone back.

Why Because that's what they settle for, Because the system doesn't teach them that they're worth anything more than that that they can have a fresh start that they are capable of doing more.

Because they're not provided with anything.

So okay, different story if they're upskilled, if they're if there's some form of glistening hope that's provided to these women, that's like, Okay, you haven't had that life before, it doesn't mean you're not capable of living this one when you get out.

And it's kind of that.

The support on the outside is important too, and you were fortunately.

I think you'd be the first to admit that that you had a loving family and the support the family round you, and that must have helped so much.

And that's what's driven the work that I do today is that I acknowledged that I was probably the one percent of female or even just inmate in general that has that ongoing support on the outside that's willing to do anything to see me succeed, you know.

But I recognized very early on that no one had that.

And while that is challenging, it also comes down like a massive part of it is having that support for yourself.

Like if you I saw people.

That had family support, that had friends support, that had financial support, doesn't mean shit until you decide that you want a better life or you decide that you're worth more than that.

Nothing's going to change you.

You ended up spending seventeen months.

Yeah, okay, how that feel when you got out.

Weird?

I would imagine that would freaking did Like, so I spent the last six months.

Okay, So Kempsey, which is where I spent the majority of my sentence, was awesome.

Ye, not a big compound.

I think there was about eighty girls there, but that's where I really got to flourish and work with officers who actually gave a fuck about their jobs and actually wanted to see better.

I'm glad you acknowledged because I know the narrative visits blue and the Green and yeah, never shall we meet or show any connection.

But there are some people deserve to be criticized in coreactive services.

But there's some great people in there too, isn't he people that genuinely care?

Oh?

There were so many officers that made my time hard or that you know, I couldn't imagine saying on the outside.

But there were also, in turns, so many that recognize I recognized that they were there for the right reasons, and you know, I would start to have these conversations with them about you know, what their life is like or why they want to help.

And so many had brothers, sisters, you know, people that had people in their lives that had faced the system and that were either treated poorly or didn't get the necessarily like the right outcome, so they wanted to make a difference.

You know.

They all had an interesting backstory.

And so why I loved that place so much is because these were the offices that actually helped me to get things going.

So I managed to get programs running.

I managed to get white cards for the girls or fitness programs, you know, and I know that that's stuff that would now still be in place, you know, upon me leaving there, I'll never forget.

It was the funniest thing.

So I was luckily I got accepted into a transitional center, which is basically a place where you can work or study so and wear normal clothes that aren't green.

So that was awesome.

But upon me leaving, I got called into the Governor's office and I was like did I walked in and I was the only inmate in there, and there was about five six officers.

I'm going, oh my gosh, right, it immediately as an inmate you're going I've done something wrong with something bad is about to happen.

And I walked in and I was still trying to be cocky.

I was like, yeah, what's up.

Everything okay?

And the governor actually sat me down and she said, you're literally the success story.

And she said, I just want to thank you.

She said, you've bridged the gap between blue and green.

She said, you've helped us realize what we need to change or what we're capable of changing.

So she said, I want to thank you, and she gave me a cake.

Wow, I know, and it was incredible because all I could think about was imagine one of these inmates see me walk out right now, they're going to think, oh my god, biggest dog in the world.

But at the same time, I was like, you know what I'm or I did or I'm doing what too many people have been scared to do.

Yeah.

So I was so proud.

I was so proud in that moment.

Yeah, so you should be Everything made sense in that moment.

Yeah.

Since you've been out, you've been working with Comfit, and we've had Joe and a few others on the cross paths with Comfit.

Tell us what Comfit's about because I think that's a great concept as well.

It's amazing and I can't give enough credit to Joe and what he's created for confit in itself, but also every person with lived experience, and he's really made us feel like anything's possible.

So Comfit is basically and not for profit.

We offer mentoring services to young people that are incarcerated.

So originally it just started in juvenile centers in New South Wales, but now I've extended to regional so we run like digital hubs that kind of thing.

And this man's mind is insane, like he doesn't stop coming up with new and fresh ideas of how we can help the system and those that currently face the system.

So yeah, I work with Confident at the moment.

I basically I'm the female leader of the female juvenile Justice space.

So we going twice a week.

I work with two other awesome mentors, my closest friends, and Yeah, we go in there, we run about a forty five minute workout and then we speak.

We do a little bit of mentoring about all of the subjects that are really important to us personally and kind of like what's helped us progress.

Yeah, and it's all ex prisoners, so all life experience.

Not necessarily all ex prisoners, majority of yes.

But then there's also others that have faced you know, ten plus years of addiction, homelessness.

Okay, so you broad with Joe.

When the first started, it was people that serve time.

Yeah, yeah, look, we've I think we came well, Joe came to find or I did, like during the hiring process as well.

But it's very hard to find a female that has that prison experience that then wants to kind of make a yeah, to make a career path out of it.

Yeah, yeah, but it must be rewarding work, Like, if you're making the difference in someone's life.

It's unbelievable to almost And it's a two way street, right because for all of us mentors, it's so rewarding to be able to make sense of all the shit that we've been through, whether we've had family members in prison or family members addicted to drugs and we've helped them, or we started falling down that path in life, or you know, we've been through it ourselves.

To be able to make sense of all the mess in our lives, it's such a beautiful thing to do.

That week in, week out.

And don't get me wrong, like these young people test us like I don't know if you remember, I'm sure you would have dealt with your fair share of you know, fifteen sixteen year old people little shits.

Yeah, and while the respect element is there, oh my god, they test us every week.

But it's beautiful to see the progression, to actually see there will be so many minimal, minor moments, but we do have these such special moments where we can see that we're impacting these young people's lives.

Yeah, well that's fantastic.

You're also doing something else that you're getting up and running called inside out.

Tell us about that.

Better to be out than in that harp?

Is that inside out?

Yeah?

Okay?

But yees.

So it was kind of a byproduct of confit, and it definitely happened accidentally a little bit premeditated, but it's kind of it's turned into something awesome.

So from confit, I just I recognized working within the juvenile centers that there's such a niche or there's there's such a there's such a missing link, and that's from young people being supported inside to then being supported outside.

While I can't fault that there aren't supportive services outside.

They haven't built the rapport.

With these young people, which means that's like another few weeks months that they need to spend that time building that rapport, yeah, or that like just that trust element in general, but also in the same term, like when young people get out, they don't they don't want to be mentored or spoken to or directed by someone that has no similar experiences to them, that have textbook experience, right.

So I immediately saw that missing that missing link and thought I can do something about this here.

So yeah, I just basically started speaking with a lot of people within Department of Communities and Justice and said, I want to start mentoring these young girls that I already know so well when they're exiting prison, because the turnaround is so so quick for young women.

You've met them when they're on the inside, and then you want to be involved when they get out.

Yeah, and I am so yeah.

So I already work with several young women at the moment.

It's expanding, so we're getting male mentors as well.

But it's basically about creating that pre and post interventions, So it doesn't even necessarily need to be young people that are lead EVN incarceration.

It's more about people that are facing the justice system in any way, shape or form, or have dealings with and that have heard about us and they know that where mentors with lived experience, We've we've done what they've been through.

We've we've come out of it in a positive way, and now we've kind of used it to the best of our abilities and you know, have created a beautiful life because of it.

They see that, they're inspired by it, and they want to be they want to work with us.

Well, I see two benefits there.

That you've got the lived experience, so they can relate to what you've been through and you can relate to what they're going through, so that that's ticked.

But then inspiring them that look, no matter how bad your life goes, you can turn it round.

So there's benefits all around.

And it's almost like an accountability thing, like we can say, like we're pretty much the only people that can say the shit that you've been through or the environments that you've been in, it's not a fucking excuse.

Yeah, you can turn it around.

It's up to you.

It's not you're You're not a byproduct of your environment, or your shitty decisions or the shitty things that you've experienced.

You're a by product of your decisions.

You do it like that, And I think a society these days, we need to own our actions, don't we.

There's too many excuses why this happened or that happened.

But getting that message across, I think that's important for kids when we're old, that we can look back and go, oh, well, it's because of this and that.

But as a kid, if you've got excuses, you're going to grab them and hang on to it, and that's it in the right direction.

Were literally like we learn from these young people every single day.

Like kind of what kickstarted this for me was we were doing sort of like a value a session in confit based off of values, right, and so we're getting these girls to speak affirmations out loud or like speak on the ones that resonated with them.

So imagine we're had a list of like twenty twenty affirmations and one of them was I'm not my past or I'm not the bad things that have happened to me.

And this young girl, she would have only been like fifteen or sixteen, she comes up to me and she goes, I'm not okay with this one.

I said, okay, but let's talk about it, like woyw aren't you okay with it?

She goes, because it's not true.

Said what do you mean?

And she goes, we should own what we've experienced, or we should own the bad things that we've been through, all the bad decisions that we've made that has made who we are.

It's what we do with it.

Next, I was like, oh my goodness, Like I was just schooled by a fifteen years old, you know, and she's helped build the foundations of this business and she doesn't even know it.

Like, we are our bad decisions.

We are the bad things that's happened to us.

It's what we decide to do with it.

Next.

Wow, yeah, okay, Well let's point in in the right direction.

Do you look back now?

And I think we started off the podcast saying it was the arrest of the best thing that's happened to you.

You look at your life now and what you've been through regrets or it was a path that you had to take.

What do you think this was a journey you had to take to become who you are now?

I mean, I wouldn't recommend jail like I'd give it one and a half stars on tripid fise Far.

I feel like it was definitely something I personally had to experience because it's stopped me in my tracks and sort of pivoted me into a new direction.

In terms of remorse, I feel like my actions and the way I live my life now definitely speak on that.

It wasn't an ideal situation what I went through, but it also wasn't an ideal outcome of what I did with it, you know, And so I feel like I'm kind of trying to make up for that in some way, shape or form.

I've said of seen.

While I can acknowledge the bad things I went through, like I see all of these young people go through, because none of these young women that I meet in jail have had an easy life, none of them.

And it's to the point where every week I'm shocked, like some of these and I'm sure you can imagine some of the stories that you hear.

It just mind boggling.

But again, it doesn't give the excuse for shitty behavior.

It doesn't give the excuse to make bad and ugly decisions that impact society.

The impact families that you know, impact yourself in negative ways.

So I think in all of my teachings and in all of basically in everything that I do in my life, you know, I always try to explain to everyone that it's not about what you went through, it's about what you do with it.

So yeah, that shows that that's my remorse to some degree.

Okay, well, I think that's a nice message to leave with.

Really, there were so many I haven't even gone looked at.

I've been enthralled by your story in the way that you've you've told the story, and like full credit to like what you're doing now and the work that you're doing now is so important.

And I hope all the best for the future, and I hope you keep up the keep up the good work.

And if we can help you here on eye catch killers in any way, put the message out, let the snap.

Thank you, I'm excited.

Cheers one in their two and two died in six