The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

Detective see a side of life.

The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

That's what I did for a living.

I was a homicide detective.

I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys.

Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.

The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to.

Some of the content and language might be confronting.

That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

Join me now, as I take you into this world.

Welcome back to part two of my chat with former SAS operative who goes by the nickname of Horse.

If you listen to part one, we spoke about horses time in the SAS and his involvement in the Afghanistan War.

It was a pretty heavy discussion, even for this podcast.

In part two, Horse talks about his life post military.

If you thought he had a quiet life after he left the SAS, you were mistaken.

We talk about his time in Africa working with anti poaching units.

He's working the Ukraine providing security for volunteer doctors close to the front line.

He's worked with law enforcement agencies here and abroad.

We also talked about the findings from the Royal Commission into Defense Veteran Suicide and his own battles with PTSD.

I can't believe the things Horses done.

Haven't listened to part two of my chat with him.

Horse, welcome back to I catch killers.

Have a nice little walk with the dogs.

Yeah, the dogs did their exercise.

They seem to be sleeping now, so they've got it out.

They've had their little rumble in the park, which it was good.

Spike needs the exercise.

We left part one.

We're talking about your time in Afghanistan and your service.

When you finally decided to get out of the military.

What brought that on?

Uh?

I started to get tired.

I had double hit replacement that took the wind out of the sales a bit.

You know, I was a patrol command of it.

I felt myself getting a little bit stale and and with that impact there, I thought maybe it's time to leave on a high note.

As you don't want to be one of those those old, crusty guys that are bitter and twisted and just a dinosaur that's hanging around getting everyone's way.

Yeah, so I thought I'll leave on a high note, and I went to the UAE doing that contract for their Special Operations Command under Mike home Marsh as a trainer.

When you left, did you you feel like you've left your tribe?

Was it confronting for you?

You've been such an intense period of time in your life.

Yeah, yeah, and so that that was really Yeah, it's quite a big day and going.

I think it was a soft landing though, because there was a lot of guys in the UAE that I already I knew, and so it was a similar tribe, and so what I call a soft landing.

But I think the significance of it really eluded me for many years.

And even when I left left the UAE, my life sort of went down spiral, took a downward spiral, and it was just this imperceptible slippery slope.

That I don't know.

It's okay, I won't go train, I won't do that, and then next thing, next thing you know, you're you're sitting in the gutter.

Okay, well we'll I want to talk about that.

I'm sorry bringing it up, but we'll talk about.

I'm okay to speak about And I think it's important to let people know that somebody that's been at the tip of the spear that can happen to them, so it can happen to anyone.

I think that's an important message before we talk about the mental well Buron and emotional well Beuron just two hip replacements.

Something that I don't think people appreciate too.

The life of a soldier, as in an infantry or a special Forces operator, takes its toll physically on the body.

Yeah yeah, yeah, So you're doing a lot of kilometers carrying some silly things and I have no regrets.

Make sure everyone knows that this is and I'll do it all again.

The only only regret I've got is one of those movies.

I didn't lead them enough.

But joking maybe, yeah.

Yeah, it's quite intense.

And we've had the Australian Institute of Sport come over and have a look at us, and so you know, you're expected to be dynamic and go over walls carrying heavy loads.

You've got to sprint and then you've got to have calm yourself down and find motor skills to take those shots as well as complex or decision making and in complex environments.

And so having that smarts and level headedness and peak in state management plus.

Then you've got to be expected to walk.

Ten kilometers into the target and ten kilometers out under night vision goggles over uneven ground.

I'm looking for threats all And.

What sort of way do we carry when you're doing this with you armor and your weapons and.

Easy thirty kilos?

Yeah, yeah, so once you're start to get live ammo in there, so you know, bombs and comms, fit some water, a little bit of food, a little bit extra for him, helmets, body armor, pistol on air, some grenades, you've med kit.

A combat load really does add up.

Yeah, and for anyone that doesn't really appreciate it, put a thy kilo weightest.

This is what you're getting around and moving dynamic as you said, and throwing yourself on the ground and jumping over things, and it has to take its till.

Yeah, it does.

And you know, like there's some guys that are lucky and everybody just sort of eats it up.

There's others that.

Yeah, we just you just wear out, And I actually did.

I took yoga up when I was doing the wrestling.

That kind of kept that up throughout my military career, and I think that kept me on playing kept me on the playing field a lot longer than I normally would have.

I think my career would have finished a bit sooner.

And so that that ying and the yang, that balancing sort of helped help me keep keep going.

Interesting.

Okay, so what what year did you leave the military?

End of twenty fifteen?

Okay, and you did some work over in the UAE, and that that was a soft landing in that you've gone from an environment you knew very well into the environment where you knew people.

And I would imagine part of it is that your reputation was intact too.

They knew your skill level, and it's not like you went from at the tip of the spear and the Tier one Special Forces to an area where no one even appreciated the skill set that you had.

But going to the UAE would have allowed you to still demonstrate those skills.

Am I reading it right?

Yeah?

And it's a similar environment, yeah, just training different people.

Yeah, Okay, you talked about the spiral.

What happened there.

Yeah, so I think I put my dog down in my working dog.

I took him over with me in early twenty seventeen.

He was just shy at fifteen, so good.

Oh boy.

And I've got out of there, and then moved to Europe to be closer to my daughter in Sweden, and I wasn't getting to see you, along with a bit of chronic pain from injuries and stuff like that and the isolation, and then yeah, started started to smoke a little bit of mess and then a little bit more.

That's not good.

Yeah, that's it.

And so I was just checking out basically, and then yeah, I ended up doing a bit of an overnighter in jail over.

There overseas, and that was in the early twenty twenty.

So sitting there going because I didn't how I end up here, and then I was sort of, well, I chose this, and so it was time to get my life back.

Together, and so I had to leave Sweden.

I was trying to be a father to my daughter, but I just became how was she at the time, So yeah, she's eight, yeah, fourteen.

So you're ticking off all the all the factors that could come into play.

Isolated, isolated, different, different culture, and a career, injuries, injuries.

Putting the dog down.

Yeah yeah, yeah, just a spiral and you just don't don't recognize it.

I'm over there to Seva with my daughter.

I'm not getting to see her.

I'm applying for jobs, defense jobs with SAAB and everything that I just couldn't get work, wasn't getting any replies and just gradually checked out.

But I was working with autistic kids, which was a highlight.

And then in between times I would pick up some work in Africa.

What skill set did you bring with autistic kids?

What was that?

How did you get involved in that?

So when you think about it, all of the training of people that I'd done with the military and adult training, all of the principles applied across the board to kids and the autistic kids.

And I think I brought my experiences from my childhood and how I was treated because I was a bit different and these kids are just a bit different, and so that's that's what i' brought with it.

And also I was offering a strong male role model, and so there was also we were just part of a larger school.

The autistic space.

And so I saw a lot of the young fellas gravitating towards me as.

Well, because they're told that this is terrible, this.

Is a bad it's toxic masculinity, where this is just being a man and getting out there after it.

You saw the achievements, and I think that there's nothing bad in there.

Society is telling them that they can't be that, and I think it resonated with those young boys into they would gravitate towards me and actually taking that step back and watching them do dumb things.

Oh, we're being watched to go now, I keep going.

Fellows, We're going till somebody hurts themselves, because why would you stop.

You know, it's all fun and games, and it is what.

Brought you to that level where you're going to start smoking some mice.

Yeah, exactly, So just checking out.

It was escape, was escaping Yep, Yeah, I.

Was just checking out.

So obviously there's a bit of chronic paint everything and and that is all chronic stress, and so each one of them on their ore.

Okay, so what's the analogy I use this code is you've got a backpack and there's a rock of stress and there's another rock of stress, and even just a couffle, you can't carry that forever.

It just keeps on grinding you down.

And then you put another one, another one, another one.

It just grinds you down and you don't even realize it.

And yeah, I just started checking out and then obviously I got myself into spot of bottle.

You're hitting a low point, low point there.

How did you reconcile with yourself that you're going to turn this around or you didn't care or what the hell?

Yeah, So I guess we all have our different low point, and mine.

I was probably fortunate that I still had the capacity to come back to Australia, but that is my low point to some others are lower than others.

And so I got a scholarship, came for the NBA and came back to Australia and that was when COVID kicked in.

So came back and did the NBA.

It sort of helped straighten me out.

But there's still been a struggle ongoing for quite some time.

And so you get on it off again, on and off again, and.

You can see it coming now, but you can identify if you are spiraling or slipping down.

Yeah, so.

I've recently had ankle fusion, now, second one, because the first one I stuffed up was all of a sudden disabled and then yeah, got on it again and stuffed the whole surgery up.

Yeah hard.

Yeah, yeah, I really really need to learn it properly.

And so I've had the second one and see that that that incapacity was was also a big factor.

And the pain and and what led me down the pace of psychedelics.

Okay, let's talk about that.

Yeah, because you've recently tried that over in Mexico.

Yes, so really really interesting.

That puts you into this other space.

And so I went to you got to go to Mexico.

It's illegal here, it's illegal in the States.

So you went over to San Diego and the teller Jake, they're smuggling an Australian into Mexico, taking across the border and yeah, five days do a Mexican like.

A sweat lodge.

Sweat lodge, which is extremely unpleasant.

You learned to lean into the problems, so you're not taking any medicines in that, leaning into it and go, Okay, that that put me into I'm always checking out.

And then gratitude for what your family did do, not what they didn't do.

So they got a couple of good things out of that.

It's not pleasant at all, and so I don't know why it's illegal.

It's it was not the type of thing, but no, very unpleasant.

Basically, I got confronted with just all of that dumb stuff that I've been doing.

And you know, whenever you're being a.

Bad person or non drugs for twenty hours, so it just played that.

It opens your mind up to all the traumas, all the bad ship just coming.

Yep, and just played that over and over again.

And the thing is, we don't realize that we're functioning like that because it's just normal to us, and we think, oh, we're being normal.

You walk into a room and people look at your weird and.

Relate.

I can relate to it.

I think I've spoken about it, but it's I always know that I'm not quite right.

When I've been and you might be out on the job for days or whatever.

You come home and you're totally wide.

You've been making decisions as in, bang, I need this done, I need that done, and wide like that.

Then you come home to a social environment or any environment, and everyone seems to be at a different pace.

And I had enough.

I worked out over the years that they're not allowed the step, it's me out of step.

And then so that take myself away from it.

And you talked about yoga.

I did meditation years ago, very early when I got in the cops, and I didn't understand.

I was just drawn to it like a thing called chigoo, drawn to it.

Didn't really get the benefits from it in the early years, but it's been a fallback position that I can go to when I do find myself spirally, that I can just take myself away and slow things down.

Yeah, meditations really really does help people growing up on the streets.

They're at that heightened level all the time, the whole time, the whole time, and especially trauma traumatized as children, and so you're functioning like that, reacting.

You're not you're not playing things out like sorting things out in your brain.

You're just they're just a dog eat dog kind of mentality.

And then then that just gets a flow on and that's how they live.

And so this will allow for recidivism or anybody.

So you don't have to be a proper or any first responders or courses.

He's got application for kids that have had traumatic childhoods and or even anybody that's suffered from violence, will help them lower that and give them a bit more space to take stock of their their life, will make better decisions on the spot.

Playing in fear, well, I think anyone listening to the podcast and we'll have a look at it and get get it out there.

But the chaos you for the cause if you didn't get yourself.

So, yeah, well I was going to die, There's no two ways about it.

And so that was where it's going to end.

And so misadventure or die by your own.

And well I didn't have any suicidal ideation really, but you know, miss misadventure or just shorten your life significantly and just done stuff.

And then you know, and I guess you know, even if you're just living in that that space that yourself is killing yourself, you know, because you have a look at what I have achieved and then what I was becoming.

That's that's a death metaphorically speaking.

I guess, yeah, I understand what you're saying.

And I'm feeling better every day, still improving, improving, and so I'm going to start to say no to things.

So opportunities like this, there's other opportunities also presenting themselves that things are just really happening for me.

Now, I think that is part of self preservation too.

You've got to say no to some things because sometimes you can dig yourself into a hole by keeping yourself too busy and you don't work on yourself.

That's something to be mindful of, can we.

It sort of leads well into the Royal Commission in the Defense and veteran suicide.

Yeah, what we're talking about talking about here.

That was a Royal commission that ran over the last couple of years, and I think on the back of that Royal Commission there was one hundred and two recommend one hundred and twenty two recommendations that came out.

I know you've had a look at that and you're curious about it.

What's your takeaway from what we learned from the Royal Commission.

I think there's no surprises there, and there's a lot of people in defense have experienced all of this to one degree or another.

What led me down that passway was the film.

All the issues that we raise pretty much encapsulates all of your findings, and I think there's with the film, we could really capitalize on that and bring it to the fort.

And that's I guess that's how we became connected as well, because I started chatting to Simon who knows you, and there's this correlation here with everything and with my issues as well.

I'm one of the lucky ones because I'm still alive and coming out the other side.

We've got a lot of people who who got.

One made who's killed himself as a result of the investigations and has put through the ring and he've been and a flat's.

Been out to sea and never recovered.

And so how many are there and living even if they're not killing themselves, they just living a lesser life than they could.

Yeah, and it's sad to see someone that's been living a good life and all of a sudden just let it destroy themsel.

And so with that, I was sort of looking, Okay, what came We can be done and I don't have any answers.

Yeah, you go through basic training, they break you down, then teach you to be a soldier, and then when you leave the military, they don't invest as much time making you be a civilian like as in leaving.

I think is there a space there to make the transition easier.

One hundred percent.

I think that was one of the recommendations, is that third party and the independent body to monitor that, because it's I think they're just ticking boxes on the transition.

So, as you said before, I've got a private pilot's license, which I did while I was in the military and I was investigating, Well how about help me get a professional pilot's license, and then I got a career.

I've already got the runs on the board, so to speak.

To Shan an interest, but there was there was nothing, no interest in that.

So that transition is really just box ticking, and I found it more frustrating than beneficial.

Yeah, well, the transition, I think so much more could be done because, yeah, the saying in the police is nothing more excellent than accent, and you feel it you've left your tribe.

Yeah, that's the people that you could relate to, the people that respected you, and you're left.

And the same with the military.

But for all the building up to make you a useful soldier or a useful cop, and then at the end of it, it's just see you and march out.

And that's the end of you're policing or army crew.

And it's a unique of factors of the service which you've identified.

You leave all yourself at the door, and then you just totally invest yourself in the old army recruiting.

It's more than just a job.

It's a life and it is and we see in the film the families are all part of that, and you're just that's your whole network, in your whole group.

And then to be taken out of that, well, we know from we evolved from hunter gatherer tribes and so when you're kicked out of the tribe or removed from the tribe, that's a death sentence.

And so that really needs to be nurtured and managed a lot better than what we are doing.

And we know the effects of all of that, and we've seen it time and time again, and you've got all the findings of the Royal Commission.

It's okay, so what yeah, yeah.

Well it's about doing stuff and leadership.

I know people would say you spent so long in homicide, how did you survive?

And it wasn't going to the homicides that caused me drama.

It wasn't the horrific scenes or chasing the crooks.

It was leadership that caused me more frustration than anything in the place.

And I get the sense speaking and speaking to military guys, there's a lot of similarities.

There, one hundred percent.

And it's that administrative violence.

I think you've see term that you coined and we've all experienced it, and we see different interpretation of the rules and just using it against people that basically the hierarchy are responsible.

And once again, you get into the defense force and then you have this trust in the system and you hand over all responsibility to the hierarchy for your destiny a lot of the time and they have a really unique responsibility.

Or there's that duty of care, and that duty of care is not being exercised by them.

We see with our case, with your case, you just oh, you get thrown under the bus and then sat off to the side and isolated and they don't give a shit.

Well, I suppose, like with my case, I'm getting judged on how I investigated the ducts and the suspected murder of a three year old child that we still haven't found.

Yeah, what what do people want me to do when I'm investigating that just walk up to people and say hey, have you done this and they say no and move on like That's what frustrated me.

Everything that I did in the investigation support the support of the above, but when it blows up and there's some complaints or allegations, that's everyone just distanced themselves.

And I thought leadership was about you know, I led in the in the police, and I'd like to think that I tried to be the best leader I could.

But I would look out for people under my command.

Those you're responsible for, yeah, yeah.

And I would accept if they're mistakes.

I would often say to people, but yeah, if you if you make a genuine mistake, I'm going to support you one hundred percent.

Do it out of laziness and the support's not going to be there.

And that was the way I worked by.

But leadership in the army seemed to be lacking.

And what you guys went through with the allegations of special forces, I would have thought there would be more people standing up support thing you within the military.

You know, once again, we had amazing leaders within now too.

Burns he's one of them.

He's in the in our film mass On Weeks.

You are amazing leaders they seem to get marginalized and then they end up just having enough and leaving as well.

And so yeah, you would think that the leadership have got this special forces unit that is doing amazing things and as I said, we're winning every fight and giving them every chance of success, that you would want to ride the coattails of that instead of extinguishing it.

I guess there's some sort of narcissistic stuff going on there which you would have experienced, and just poor examples of leadership.

And so when there is rumors of something going wrong and they just kick you to the curb and actually put a blanket allegation perception on everybody.

And.

It doesn't really make sense because at the end of the day, they are responsible for everything that goes on under their command, so to pick and choose, you don't get that choice.

So when I was patrol commander, everything good that happened within the patrol was well under patrol, and anything bad it was like, well that's on me.

Yeah, that's that's leadership.

I get the sense, and this is me looking from the outside, no internal knowledge, but I get the sense from what you guys went through.

If there were no allegations or nothing blew up the very people with are now distancing self themselves from you.

Would have been standing there beside you, all proud and giving themselves pats on the back and look what we did.

But because there was alligation, they distance themselves and yeah, if they are leaders, they know what's going on underneath.

Well they they were happy to take themselves medals for everything that have it there.

I think there was a parliamentary inquiry into it all question times in Parliament and there was a politician I think it was David Chewbridge that asked the question of yeah, senior military figure, well you've got the medals for their deployment.

Should you give the metal medals back?

And no, are you responsible for what's happened over there?

No, I wasn't.

I wasn't responsible because I didn't have control.

Or therefore why are you wearing the medals?

And yeah, that's not the verbatim, but that was the gist of the line line of question.

That makes sense and it really encapsulates everything you've been talking about.

Yeah, I'll take I'll take the good times and then the bad times are not more responsive distances.

We jump past the wildlife protection over in Africa.

Tell us about that.

So I'm working with a company called Malavora Systems.

It's a veteran run organization.

He's extra strain and military as well.

He lives over there, and what we do is mentor local wildlife arrangers and so we'll go over there and run training for them, and I run a lot of mission planning, appreciation and so recently I was in South Sudan and so in seven weeks I had them from give them a warning order.

Okay, this is what we got out on the ground.

These are the issues, and then they would do an appreciation process, course of action, development, brief me back, choose a course of action that's appropriate.

They go and right the orders to for the orders and run a.

Mission okay, and like poaching, this is tell us about the environment because this is hardcore.

Yeah.

So it's some of the most special force of stuff we've done because you're you're out there living in the park with these guys running.

Essentially it's a it's almost a paramilitary unit against these guys who are out there poaching bush meat obviously rhinos and elephant horns to get get money back.

So some of them are just doing it for survival.

But obviously you've got the international factors coming in and paying them big money, and so of course when you're subsistence, you're going to go for it.

So there is that humanitarian issue that you've got.

I can't blame these guys.

We've still got to break the back on.

This violent environment.

Yeah, it is definitely violent environment.

So you have everybody is carrying guns, which which I'm quite comfortable with.

Going out there and being able to de escalate the situation is some of the most rewarding times I've had.

You got an example.

Well, yeah, so even like just recently, we've got warring tribes within South Sudan and everybody's scared of these they called Muralley and they've got a really bad reputation or they live off the land and they just carry guns as much guns an ammo as they can.

They're in the neighborhood and actually in our park near the headquarters, and we get the guns out, everybody get up ready for to defend.

Hang on a second, let's let's go and chat to them.

So one of the young one of the locals that we had working for us, I put our guns down and went out, went their hands up.

They're all pointing guns at us.

It's not exactly comfortable, and you sort of think of those safety seers aren't really affective on old bit of kit, and that that itchy trigger is actually if the fingers on on the trigger.

But you know, their leader had his gun slung, and so we were able to have that conversation, you know who we are, you know who you are, You're welcome here.

There's come and take water, there be no fighting on our lands, and you know, we're able to have that conversation and everything just de escalated, and they were really happy with it because they're all used to just shooting first and asked questions later.

It's like gang bangers basically, and so having been able to just actually do that was so rewarding.

And then that's the first step getting a bit of a flow on and established and that credibility for you being in our area where you know, they live off the land, and now we're telling them no hunting here, so we've got to have a bit of give back.

And then we ended up doing some medical clinics in the villages and engaging locals and actually got to built repair some wells which then some of the ng O people who were responsible for all that got.

Pissed off at me because that.

Was their job and I'm out en gring the ng O.

So that's that perception, what do we need them here?

Were spending too much money and.

They're referring to you like merks basically coming in.

Yeah, that was how they saw us.

Then we started, I was using my guys of the rangers for these tasks and work because we teach them first aid and so we're engaging with the communities and providing first aid and a little bit of protection to them, and so we're getting the locals on board.

So that that was some of the most rewarding things I've done.

Would for many years.

I would imagine it would be rewarding, like it's worthwhile service in a war zone, like when you're deployed to Afghanistan and you're doing you know, you're doing the work ars of you by the government.

I would imagine going from that environment and then doing something like wildlife because it's basically about wildlife protection, but you've opened it up even more if you're helping villages and a little bit of medical and water systems and different things.

That must give you a real balance out.

You said mentioned the ying and Yang wars.

People are going to die and war.

That's a business of war.

But doing something like that, did you find that was good for yourself?

Well, when I come back from doing that people, I'm like, I am, Now it's just wholesome and that's maybe that's where I belong to doing that stuff.

And so yeah, you feel good and being able to So I've got the martial skills to back it up because I've been downrange and seen war.

We don't want that and having those marcial skills to back it up.

And I guess once again we're selected on intelligence and our problem solving skills and our ability to engage with people from around the world.

Being able to do that and actually assess, Okay, what's the issue here and what do we need to do to solve it.

We don't always resort to those war or guns.

You know, we don't just have a hammer.

We've got many tools in our toolbox.

Because people see, like you said, the martial skills that allows you to do the work that you do.

People see a's an neither or you're a soldier or something that NGO doing some good for communities, but quite often the martial skills allow you to do the work, the other work that you're doing.

Yeah, I think that's the true being a true warrior is having that capacity, is that the meat will inherit the earth.

We're not talking about being meek, and the meek are the ones that leave their shorts, their sword in the scabbard, and go and work out other ways to move forward into the future.

So if you start pulling that sword out every time, nobody evolves, nobody goes anywhere.

And so I find it much more rewarding when you don't have to pull that trigger.

What's the attributes that I see it?

Just in conversation with you, I can see where you're coming from.

But what's the attributes that you think make a good Special Forces soldier?

Are someone capable of fitting into the sas?

Emotional intelligence is number one?

Okay, Now, no one, no one would have no one would have guessed.

I guess that.

But I understand what you're saying.

Yeah, understanding who you are, and that empathy is a big one too.

You're going into you know, you're offshore, and even on shore, there's problems if you have an empathy as you said, you understand the position of some of the crooks and crims, you're like far out and you're going to approach that problem in a different way.

And so once you start to understand the other people who you're dealing with, said, you've got a much better chance of working to towards a solution or resolution as opposed to just right, we're going to hit force with force, and we learn that in jiu jitsu, and it's much better to do a flanker than up regards with lots of smoke.

Yeah, well, emotional intelligence and that's the type of thing that they're looking for with people that get to that level.

And I would imagine warfare.

It's a changing world in warfare, isn't it.

It scares me the capability of drones and everything that's going on there.

You still see a role for Special Forces soldiers in the future.

I still think you need boots on the ground at the end of the day's but the drone spaces is really interesting.

One drones these days will take out an SF team.

It's no competition really with all of the the optics and capabilities they've got.

You know, a lot of the times the teams can't even reach out, and you've it's got one.

Even at the tactical level, you've got all those small drones, you know, half a dozen of ten.

I've seen footage of a drone chasing someone to take them out, Like.

Yeah, your standard little dji, it's got that that capability to follow a person to do selfie see you know.

Then you put a bomb in that thing.

And it's pretty simple technology by today's standards, isn't it.

Yeah, anybody that's gone clay shooting, you've got a shotgun.

It's hard to hit a clay target.

And then there's things going to maneuver and chase hits, and then and then you have multiple of them.

It's and it might change a potentially power base to like that's not the biggest army anymore, like the.

There's a couple of things on that.

So now you're going to fight wars with drones.

So it's it's much more palatable to fight a war because we're not losing anybody.

So that there is that one issue.

And also we'll back in traditionally, the bigger population, the bigger your army, and so the bigger your army, better chance you've got a winning.

Well, now this technology is coming into into the whole space, then you've got well, now maybe Singapore who's got technology, technology is a potential for all we're power.

You know, it's she's going to change that dynamic on the battle's face.

At the end of the day, you still have to have roots on the ground to occupy and manage things.

And so I think Special Forces certainly does have a role.

We've just got to evolve that role and it you know, it's always it should always be evolving.

And what we see I see Special Forces as the R and D department for the regular army.

Yeah, well that that's part of the makeup of s A is that continued to evolve to fit into whatever environment they might need and need to fight in.

Yeah, well, I guess.

And also preparing for a black swan because you just don't know who.

You didn't see nine to eleven coming.

Yeah, well that's yeah, that change the change of the landscape.

When you were in the army at that time, when when that happened, did you realize your life was going to change so dramatically?

Yeah, hich thought, Okay, jobs on.

Actually ironically I was in these team or at the time, and I was on actually guard duty on the on the front gate of the little base at Bobinaro.

So I guess joke that it happened on my watch, too good one.

Now we know who the because I came off off the guard duty and looking at the screen and the lunchroom.

What's that?

What's going on there?

The planes flying into a building.

So yeah, that changed the world for it.

That changed the mentality of everyone in the army at that Now the training became very real.

It certainly made it real.

So we team or kind of made it real.

But then then okay, this is next level now now it's yeah, and then obviously Iraq and in Afghanistan, this this is something real.

And you know some of the guys captured it in bravery and betrayal the actually it was one of the sons Kegan.

Is the feeling sending dad off to East team or was different to sending dad off to Afghanistan?

Yeah, and so it made it a bit more real real, Yeah, and yeah, significant increase in the.

Threat you you have relatively recent also been across to the Ukraine.

Security for doctors getting into hospitals near the front line.

Again, that's the way I say that's balancing out or not balancing, but it's a real yin yang thing.

You're helping people and getting medical support into a war zone.

How was that?

That was an experience that was really interesting because I was not armed, and actually it's quite safe.

I think within Ukraine, if I was getting around armed, I might have got myself into more trouble than not being armed.

And you know that recognizing that's important.

Coming from the across the Polish border, having a look at all of the eighty second airborne high Mars pointed eastward and all the hardware going on over there was interesting.

But then going forward to I think we're in fifteen kilometers of the front line now.

These hospitals that I was escorting surgeons who have been functioning like that since twenty fourteen, when the the Next People's Republic, the Hunts People's Republic, and Crimea all had referendums to leave Ukraine because there's a lot of corruption now, and I think it's to be expected because they've only had sovereignty since nineteen ninety one, and so there's going to be that power struggle, and I see that throughout Africa when the colonial powers pull out, there's this power vacuum, and well what do we do with this?

And so they're all just power buying.

Power corrupts and so you know, when you've got a government that doesn't hand out money to the regions and you're Australia did that with New Guinea too.

We just pulled out and virtue signaled to the world, hey we've given it to give it to a bit.

There's if you slowly withdraw and enable the locals and build them up, then it's a nice way to do it instead of just pulling out and going look at us, aren't we awesome?

You acknowledge as a soldier, you sign up and yeah, yep, military, you can be ordered.

This is how we're going to use you for whatever reason.

That might be something you personally don't agree with, but you accept.

That's part of signing up up for the military is that that correct.

That's correct.

And so once again it's that unique factors of service you give you.

Join the army in.

Life and if you do have a big issue with it, then you get.

Out reflections of your time in service in Afghanistan and the time in the military.

Do you look back at it with pride?

Yeah, you know, some of the fondest times in my life, I often wish that I could do it again.

Yeah, we all want that all.

So I'd like to start again and do it all again.

Yeah my brain thinks I on twenty one, but my body thinks I'm an idiot.

Just listen, listen to your brain.

Don't worry about it.

You'll be fine.

But yeah, you do.

You do look back at it, and you've paid the price emotionally, physically and everything that you've been through it.

But you look back at your service pride.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, it's great pride.

And I'm glad that I'm really glad that I've got the opportunity.

And I do promote the idea of anybody else that's considering getting into the defense force to go for it.

And again, I achieved amazing things in there, and it set me up well, and I've got some lifetime friends forged in fire and and yeah, they were great times, and I'm thankful that I got that opportunity.

And so so I say this, there's no greater calling than to be of service as long as people serve, not take interesting.

So when you are joining up going with the eyes white aprons.

Once again, we saw what they did to the Vietnam vets still joined up and so what they're doing to us and let that put you off, but go in with the eyes white open.

And now here we are with the film.

So I'm hoping that that will raise the awareness in Australian public so that we can take steps to ensure that it doesn't happen to the next generation.

And what And part of the motive I understand that for the film is to make sure your story, as in collectively everyone that was involved in this story that comes across you would hope that these allegations about war crimes and resolved sooner rather than later, because people's lives are on hold.

Yeah yeah, so and that was when we recently did a screening at Parliament House and it's one of our big things is Okay, this has been going on for ten years now.

I'm not a lawyer or been involved in policing.

I'm pretty sure that these things shouldn't go get dragged on that long and if there's anything there, it should be finalized, charges, put up or shut up.

We've got ex military people from the UK that.

The Island conflict.

They've got allegations hanging over their head.

And I think the guy just died recently for fifty years, he died with those allegations, So you know, I imagine living with that, and so that's got to shorten your life and the impact that has not only on the person that's under charges, to flow on effect the family.

So I think one of the findings on the Royal Commission into Suicide is anybody that comes into contact with the justice system, it does have a psychological impact.

And the longer you are in contact with that under investigation, the greater the effect.

And so then we're talking about suicide algy and not only that trauma that you're passing on to your family and then the community.

And we've got not only that, and you've got kids coming home from school being teased that the dad's a war criminal as well.

Yeah, it's far reaching, isn't it.

And I sit here and say, I hope they get it resolved sooner than later, because I think it's just a living hell and nightmare that these people are going through.

And yeah, it's you guys, shit happens.

I know who I want going to defending our country.

It's gather you blokes.

Together, defending, defending the country, and yeah, I think we've got to accept that it's an environment that unless you've been there, you don't understand what goes on.

Yeah, it's quite complex, you know.

So I have been to Ukraine and so I have an opinion on that, and people ask me about Guarzian.

I haven't been there, so I don't have an opinion.

All right, well we might wrap it up.

I just to see Bravery and Betrayal the documentary.

I know it's still touring around the country if people are interested in seeing it, and I thoroughly recommend it and certainly expanding on what we've talked about here and some really interesting and heavy emotional stuff that comes out in the documentary.

How can people find out where they can serve it?

So get onto the Wandering Warriors website.

Now there are another veteran or support organization who have involved with education.

I guess we need to say that the film was actually done on donations from the Australian public, So thank you to all those people and managed by Wandering Warriors, so big shout out to them as well.

So Wandering Warriors and the Burrow of in Betrayal two or two point zero back by popular demand.

You see all the tour dates and locations working way south all the way through to Tasmania and Adelaide in early November, and a lot of regional centers in between.

Excellent.

All right, before I wrap it up, you reckon Spike's God, that's what it takes to get through the selection course in the essays.

These dogs have.

Sorry, Spike, will get your gig somewhere else.

Thank you so much for coming on the day.

And yeah, total respect for the services you've given to the country and talking about the things that you're talking about.

Total respect from my end, mate, and I hope all the best for the future and what you're doing.

You should be proud of yourself.

Likewise, think you total respect for you and your your history as well.

Did a little bit of research O got here and yeah, I was pretty much ignorant of who you were.

And then my headlines you.

Know, I'm fami with the media reading between the lines here.

Yeah, thank you for what you've been doing while we've been here, while we've been doing it overseas, so it takes all of.

Us and so thank you.

Good stuff.

Thanks