The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

Detective see aside of life, the average person has never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

That's what I did for a living.

I was a homicide detective.

I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys.

Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.

The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to.

Some of the content and language might be confronting.

That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

Join me now as I take you into this world.

In part two of my chat with Nicole Meyer, we spoke about the personal impact on her and the two sisters because of the actions of the school principle, malcol Lifa, and how harrowing the seven week trial was on her and the sisters, how it felt to finally face down her abuser, and what lessons can be learnt from her experiences so this type of despicable crime doesn't occur again.

As I said it was a very difficult conversation to have, but it's one I think is important to talk about.

Nicole Meyer, welcome back to I Catch Kill.

It's part two.

Thank you.

I'm still just processing all that you told us in part one and the battles that you had to go through and your determination to get a person just to be put before the courts.

So we're talking about market Leifa, the principal at the school that you were attending as a student, and then your battle.

So I think something like seventy five court appearances to get the courts in Israel to approve her extradition back to Australia.

I want to take it to that point in time now.

So once you were notified about the extradition, I would imagine yourself and your sisters and the people around you supporting You would have thought, yes, this is a step in the right direction.

But again that's just the start of the efforts to get justice.

What happened after you were informed about the extradition.

Of course, we spoke to prosecutors in Israel and they did let us know then that Michaelaifel will be extradited.

They can't give us an exact approximation of when and not only that they legally cannot tell us when she's on the plane, and we were like, really, we can't even know when she's in the sky.

Like that was really difficult, So we just kept in touch with them.

It was I don't think anything major happened there made it been a couple mentions.

The main thing that had to happen from then in Israel was getting the paper signed for extradition by the Justice minister.

It had to happen now, that in itself is a process.

And all we heard, and I'm going to go to the day that she arrived, all we heard was that it was a foot race literally because the skies were closing because of COVID ah right, and they had to get the paper signed and get her on that plane out of Israel to Australia because literally there were no flights coming to Australia from Israel.

Pasted her flight.

It was nothing short of miraculous as she actually got on that plane and the paper was literally signed, how I can mission it, and then racing and even the detective that Flewever were not even there for forty eight hours, they picked her up and they put her on the plane bought her to Australia, and I remember the female detective said, you are arrested on Australian soil.

Was like the moment to say to her, after all these years, you are arrested.

And all I remember of the night that she came back is because of that leaked photo from some random person in Israel that went worldwide, we knew that she's on the plane.

And then it was all the detectives, you know, the experts online trying to find which flight, and then it was all the news in the airport, but it was COVID so we couldn't go to the airport, and the reporters said all their masks on and they were standing by the window, and we had one very kind reporter I'm actually meeting later today because she was a big part of our journey and she held her phone to the wall of the.

Very crazy.

I was on the live.

My sisters were on the call as well.

We're on what's that video?

And we just watched the plane land, the whole thing, talking the whole time, And that part will be in the documentary.

You'll see parts of that being filmed called Surviving Malkalofa, because I had the whole filming crew in my house filming me watching her land.

It was a huge It was the most shocking, surreal moment to feel a physical sense of her being back on the soil.

It's still something I feel now.

Because she felt unreachable, she felt untouchable, she felt like she was always evading and escaping.

It felt so It was so grounding to finally feel that she's here.

She can't escape anymore.

She's here, She's on Australian soil.

It didn't matter that I didn't know which prison.

And then the next morning I heard her voice for the first time because she was arranged.

They go to court and they get you know, how do you plead or whatever words the judge says, and that was all the courts.

Yeah, were you in the courts or were the courts closed?

Closed?

Everything online?

Okay?

Well, first of all, thankfully that you got here on the plane before our COVID because that I'm sure you would have hung in there, but that would have been a much longer story because the borders borders shut down.

Her first appearance at court, she wasn't granded.

Bao kept in custody, Yes, okay.

Were you in contact with the police and the prosecutors about the trial and how long that might take.

So once she arrived, we probably met with the opp and the people that were needed with us, and we had a couple of meetings and we were told there'll be a committal hearing in twenty twenty one in September, and that was the first court appearance for us.

So we had to then realize, Wow, this is real, this is happening there, this is actually happening.

I remember them saying at the time, absolutely no news.

There is a gag out of the secondary lands on this country.

You are the absolutely can't make you cannot say comments, you cannot give your opinions, you cannot say anything to the news.

And that was it.

We went utterly silent.

So there was like one news crew that tried to follow me and try to get a statement fast the committal and they didn't bother coming again because they knew we couldn't talk.

We actually couldn't say a word.

Well potentially could the jeopardize absolute suations?

Absolutely, So my sisters and I very quietly it was COVID, so we to wear masks and we were like, oh, can we just take it off in the building, not to you get into the room.

It was done remotely, like not in the court, orne in the opp's office, and we sat down for a couple of days, each of us giving our evidence.

Only the defense lawyer the prosecutor barely stood up because it's the committal you're trying to show, prove that this court can be given.

And for people, I think they'd understand the committal process, but just showing that there's sufficient evidence for it to get.

The trial to be committed to trial, yes, And then that was over, and then we had to wait for judges' decision, which was pretty it's going to happen, like pretty certain.

But at the same time, I just found some journal notes just randomly yesterday on the day that we got the notification that's been committed to trial.

And how I felt then, did.

You found some of your own journals?

Tell us what were you thinking?

It was actually when I read it yesterday or sad because it was like I had so much hope for justice and I was so excited for justice.

It was tinged with sadness.

But also I could see back in twenty twenty one, how huge that was that it was committed to trial, even though we were certain there's always a little bit of we had so many times it was almost and never happened that almost could even happen all the way to the day trial starts.

So the fact that it was committed was incredible.

It was committed for August twenty twenty two, my birthday, actually the day it was meant to start, strange star birth before it was pushed off the day before.

Why the defense team and I guess prosecution had so many pre trial discussions that they still needed to talk about weeks and weeks they had already done until then wasn't enough and the judge, I guess, did not have availability to allow for more pre trial conversations to happen.

So trial was pushed off to February.

That was a huge blow.

We had all moved out of home, we were mentally prepared, we had all been preparing emotionally for trial, and to have a pushed off at such a late stage was crushing.

It felt like it could not get any worse, And I know many victim survivors go through this a lot of times.

Trials I postponed orrijourned, and it's just it's something we can't control.

It's the system, it works.

We understand that, but it still is impactful regardless.

I think we can't control it, but I think more effort could be done to keep them on track because I've seen trials that, yeah, have been put off, and as you described it from a victim's point of view, your whole life is focused on this.

You've rearranged your life and then it gets put off on short notice because defense need more time to prepare their defense, or even prosecutors need more time things like that.

We've really got to be conscious of the impact that has on people, like what you're going through.

So it's been delayed.

It finally comes up the trial.

It talk us through the emotions and what took place there.

So because we now knew it was actually happening second time round, my sisters and I again moved out of home because we need to be fully focused.

We cannot be a parent at the same time as giving evidence to the extent that we needed to.

So we just moved to a quest near in South Bank so we can get to the city easy every day.

And once this didn't come full time and we literally just knuckle down and read our statements and hardly talk to each other.

Family members would come visit us, like just have dinner, our play game or something to lighten the atmosphere.

And then it was day one and we were video like journaling the whole time.

So we have videos of us three together that morning of the afternoon of how we felt post like we just there.

And then it was like, we are going to walk in together.

We are proud, we are going to walk with our backs up, and this is our moment to finally face the woman who has invaded our every waking moment for years and over a decade or two decades, including the abuse.

And we're going to go and seek justice.

We're going to do this.

And so we yeah, we all got dressed, we were all in the room, We all left the quest together.

We walked to court.

There was a huge camera crew outside taking pictures and everything like that.

So it felt very surreal.

Had you become accustomed to that at this stage or this was at another level again when it got to this, This.

Was a higher level.

But we had been so many years around media and even the ABC documentary that we did back in twenty seventeen eighteen, that we just knew how to kind of like zona out, and we also knew how to boundaries.

We also knew how to manage the media.

So yes to one, No, we can do you after or can we all just have you together in one room so we can just see we had Yeah, we'd become accustomed to knowing how to handle that.

And also we couldn't talk as much as we would have loved to, We couldn't say a word.

So we just walked right into court and went to level one in counter court.

Making a statement, walking in proud and.

With our family members all supporting us and coming with all our siblings came and we went and spoke with the opp and they said, all right, Nicole, you're up first.

Is that the first time you've seen her since she's been extra di either back to in person, so.

This is a funny thing.

Yeah, we actually asked her for a screen.

So I felt, and I don't know if you can understand this, but the respect for the judge was huge.

It was like heavy and deep in the room.

So I felt it would be so disrespectful if I turned my chair around to look at Marko Laifer, and I've asked for a screen, so I couldn't do it.

So I felt her and I heard her voice because she's like, oh, I want to watch Nicole.

I want to see her.

So they had to go set up a whole computer for her to be able to see me giving evidence because she couldn't see me physically.

And they did that, and I looked at the defense lawyer, I look at the prosecutor, I looked at the jury.

On day two, I slightly turned my chair.

I was like, I'm not going through without staring her down.

That's not happening.

And she did this very side as she's walk turned around out of the dock, like we caught eyes for a minute.

Like side, very evil, very intentional, very deep.

But then on the third day I just didn't care anymore and I just fully turned around and looked at her right up and down and then turned back again.

Absolutely it was.

It was, and she was leaving to go back to jail, and I am free, and I can walk out this courtroom and join my family and my community.

Yeah.

I can imagine how that must must feel, how empowering that must feel.

It was very necessary for me to look at her because she loomed and she still does at time so big in my mind because of the impact of her abuse.

So I have had to see her and realize that I am here and you are there like there were.

It was very necessary for my own healing and my own journey.

I hadn't seen her in person since the day she pulled me out of class and said, what's happening, So that that amount of time working around trying to bring someone to justice and not actually seeing them, because she pulled that trick in Israel, there was all the camera crews.

She was meant to come to court that day because obviously because we were there, she decided she's not coming in person, and she didn't come in person again.

Right, Okay, So she had been attending in person until then and doing the whole fiasco of pretending to be unwell, pretending to fall down, pretending to be sick, and all that kind of stuff, which she didn't try once in Australia.

Well, all of the nebulations and little game that she played or obviously didn't work out, got a back here.

How long we were in the witness box giving.

Evidence three full days and one half day or three days.

Court's intimidating for anyone.

I don't care what they say.

If people say they're not nervous before that, they're getting the witness box as stupid.

Yes, yeah, yeah, it's a natural reaction, very big thing that you're talking about.

How did you find the experience?

It feels like the whole court process is designed to make the victim feel like they've done something wrong.

And that's what's sad about it, because we should feel empowered, we should feel we have a chance to say our whole truth, not a reducted, very very limited truth, which is unfortunately what happened, and what happened very deeply to me.

And I walked in and said in the stand.

As I sat in my seat, I was giving a glass of water, and it was just the feeling in the room was so intense, so quiet, because when my sister's like get evidence, it wasn't open court because of the sensitive but still I counted thirty people in the room, despite the fact that it was despite that I had to because that was just my way of gauging everyone.

The jury members looked interested, the judge barely glanced at me, and unfortunately, I will say this, he did not look at us the entire trial, even at the plea, even at the sentencing.

I think judges have a right to be and they need to be unbiased and impartial.

But we're humans and they can, and there have been judges they can say thank you, Nicole when they step down, or that was very brave of you, and that doesn't mean anything.

That just means they're chronowledging that you are a human victim that has gone through horrific abuse and you've come up to stand up and talk about it in the most clinical terms, which is really what I find what the stand did to me and I'm sure to my sisters into other victims as well.

It can narrow down six and a half years of abuse to four charges of rape and one of indecent assault, which is the whole seveny issues around.

So it wasn't anything specific, and it can literally narrow even further to time whether exactly how far certain acts were and what exactly meant bringing a medical expert to prove that it was actually this particular way and not that particular way, and it really boils it down to such a clinical nature.

There's not enough context given there's not enough understanding of this type of woman and the control she had and the impact in every area, and how she was always around and there none of that was explained in a way that a jury could understand how this could actually happen.

These rapes don't occur in a vacuum, and unfortunately that's what it does.

And I understand, you've got to prove beyond reasonable doubts.

You have to narrow down and really ask the hard questions and get right in there.

But I think in doing so, I think the prosecution didn't give enough context around mulcut Lifer.

Yes, around our background, yes, how she rund the school, but not particularly for my story.

And I also understand my story was extensive.

She abused me hundreds of times.

He got boiled down to only five charges given to me.

I didn't really get a chance.

I didn't get a fair chance to yeah, and to discuss the extent of it for sure, not so I walked out of three days not feeling that I did justice for myself.

I didn't feel I had a chance to say my story.

And I think that is the misconception that a lot of victim survivors have when going to court.

They think we're going to get up there and we're going to just it's going to all pour out and we can talk.

And it's not it's so scripted, and it's so careful.

And you say one word wrong mistrial, You talk about one incident, you're not supposed to mistrial.

And we were given those wor pressure, isn't it so much?

And and we are my sisters and I are people that understand the court systems, have been through legal systems and other different things that were going on in our lives and in Israel.

My sister and I had attended a court case in America to support a victim there, so we were well aware of how it worked there.

And it was like we knew we knew questions to ask, we knew what to say, we knew what to wear, we knew how to look.

We felt confident.

We were waiting for this for so long, we prepared, we were very switched on.

And still still it felt like I did not really have my chance to say my story.

And the jury don't really know what Marco life had did to me.

They just don't.

They're walking away things.

Was that really a rape or was that not really a rape?

Well I'm not sure because the doctor said this, and the defense lawyer said this, and Nicole said this, so we'll just give I don't know they're thinking, but this is all the different things I've thought since then.

I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure you're not the first person that's gott in the witness box and got out and felt that way.

It's a shame that the courts doesn't allow.

You know, We've got a system that set up.

You know, people say it's good.

I think it can always be improved, but I do understand what sometimes I've got to out of the witness box and not with the pressure that you're under in regards to being a victim reporting a crime that's occurred to you, but get out of the witness box and think I wasn't even allowed to tell if I just know, I've got all these legal people sitting here, and I'm sitting there thinking I could answer this if I was just allowed to talk and explain the situation.

So the context is important.

Another issue that you talk there.

I think it is time that we change.

And it's not the criticism of the judge that was sitting on the trial there, but judges in general, I think we should allow a little bit of humanity in the court.

So I've seen it time and time again in murder trials at a high level supreme court where there doesn't seem any humanity there for the victims.

And I understand there needs to be an independence and you know, it's not about the emotion of it, it's about the facts.

But a little bit of humanity would go a long way, wouldn't it.

Absolutely Sorry, It's probably difficult too with a jury there because the judge doesn't want to appear too sympathetic to the victim because that'll be the judge that will indicate that the judge believes what the person is saying.

Perhaps that's the reason, but yeah, I think we miss it.

The courts are there to set or to represent and provide justice for the community.

I think we've got to make some adjustments.

I think judges and general should have very specific trauma informed training for them specifically, and that is something that I know a lot of victim survivors feel because judges can make some really awful comments that can really impact the victims, particularly in their closings, particularly to even to a victim when they say something the way that they phrase certain words, and then it leaves us victims go through the system thinking like we just had an awful judge.

Now I don't think we had an awful judge.

I think they did an incredible case, very tight, was very on top of it, so authoritative, And I think that defense lawyers have a job to do and I respect that job.

Maybe not with sex crimes, but I respect defense lawyers that they have a job to do.

But they also often don't toe the line the smoking, the laughing, the comments, the mutterings, the way the condess sending.

They have a job to do, do it, but do it respectfully, because you're dealing with someone who's traumatized and being abused and has worked so hard to be on that stand.

So I think there needs to be a whole, a whole change with the way that the legal system works in regards to survivors of sexual abuse and of course family violence and other things.

And that has to come with just some really specific training given to the judges, defense prosecutions, social workers so that victims feel more supported through the process.

And that is something I feel very passionately about and I hope that I can join and I'm looking to always and I am interested in joining a round table discussions around that legal reform that's needed to allow victims to feel more supported and have more rights in the legal system.

I think it's a very important to important thing.

You don't want victims traumatized by the court experience or further traumatized.

And many victims say that the core experience is an additional trauma.

It's not just a retraumatization, it's an additional one.

You mentioned defense and said, yeah, they're doing their job.

I agree, but some of them.

Yeah, I give them the lad that you that there is a job, and a very important job.

But I've seen defense that solicitors, barristers go after victims and I just think it's not balanced.

So they're causing more trauma by the way they approach it.

And you mentioned that it's the subtle things that are hard to quantify, but the little smirk or the rolling of the eyes and that type of thing.

You're very much aware of it when you're seeing in the witness box, and that that type of behavior is betrayed to you.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

The trial went for seven weeks and then the nine weeks.

I think you said, by the time the jury came back after you gave evidence for three days, were you allowed to sit in and watch the rest of the trial.

Legally, I think I could for dusting Ellie, but because of risk of recross examination or a retrial, they kept doing until Dusting Ellie finished.

No, and after that we were allowed to listen online.

They preferred us not to be in the court room, right, as, are you going to stop me?

Like I could prefer I know I can, but of course I respected them and I didn't go in even though you talk tough, but I'm too respectful.

Yeah, so we just like, yeah, most days we were in court and everyone listening on our own individual devices.

The defense lawyer jumped up and down about that we have to be in separate room.

So on the first day we are all in separate room, and then we're like, stuff it, we're not going to talk.

It's not a party.

We're sitting to listen.

We're listening in the same room in our own devices, and that is fine, Okay.

So we did that.

The social worker was amazing.

She was with us most days, supporting us.

There wasn't one time that there was a question.

Every I thought it was a verdict.

So it was like, oh, mad rush.

Everyone went up to the court room and the prosecution and the prosecutors like the victims can come in, and the judges like, I'm not waiting for them.

He's like, they're in the room right next door.

So we came in.

It was just a question.

But that was good.

Really she got in.

Okay.

Now when it got to the jury has come back, where were you and how were you notified?

My sisters were in court with eye.

It was nine days.

Everyone was on edge.

So the jury was out for nine days.

Nine days.

The prosecution was on edge, the social worker was on edge, the police was on edge.

We were in court every single day.

There was news outside.

You could feel the buzz and there everyone's waiting day after day after day.

First weekend came and we're like, surely, only it's going to happen on Monday.

Now, next weekend came, We're like, okay, the second Monday, the third Monday, we're like, it's going to be today.

We're all going to dress and the same things we were on the first day of trial, because that's momentous for us.

It's going to be today, And it was.

We didn't know when at three forty five my phone was a designated phone call.

The prosecutor called.

I said, a verdicts in.

I said, three o'clock.

Verdicts in at three forty five, and that's filmed for the Docky.

They allowed just one camera in to film us then, and it was like we were shaking.

Everyone ran and met in the corridor.

The prosecutor, the social worker, the police detective were all together and we're like, it's happening.

It's happening.

I said to Elsa, she's the prosecutor.

I said to her, if I get not guilty and I pass out, do you want to get an adbultance.

I had this very unsettling intuition from the second I stepped off giving evidence that I'm going to get not guilty, and my sisters remember it, and the prosecution remembers it, and you'll see it on the doco.

It's there because I felt it.

I don't know why.

Sometimes you just have a sixth sense about something and I felt it deeply, and I didn't want to feel it.

Yeah, I didn't want to feel it, but I did.

And when we walked in the courtroom was packed to the rafters.

There was not a single seat available, and it was so quiet, it was like pin drop silence.

And with a room pack full of people, it was it didn't make sense that it was so quiet, but that's how tense and anticipatory it was.

And then the knock knock, and the judge comes in, and then he calls in the jury and then he says a couple of things and very short, but then he says and in regards to the verdict, if anyone is going to lose their composure or make a distraction, they can leave as well.

And that's when I knew one there's a not guilty in that, because he's saying that to me or to one of us.

Because and also on top of that, the jury came in.

Not one jury member looked at us, not one.

That is not a good sign sign anyone knows that.

And we kept trying to catch their eye.

We were right there and they were right there.

They refused to look at us.

And then the jury foreman got up and said not guilty.

And it was just a shock to my entire system, like in se so not guilty, not guilty, not guilty, not guilty, not guilty.

And then guilty.

And then the first guilty you can almost hear the whole cool room breathe because it was like, Okay, she's guilty, even just one, she's guilty.

She's not going to be going back to Israel today.

It was like everyone took a breath, and then they just read there's a couple not guilty, sprinkled in with the rest of the chargers, and then guilty, and then the drudge breads his stuff and then he says, just charge with the jury, thanks them for the service, tells them they don't have to do jury forever many year, more years.

And then we all leave the room and go downstairs.

And then there's like fifteen people stuffed in the left and I'm just like not sure what I'm feeling.

My sisters are broken harder for me, so they're in tears.

I'm not in tears.

I'm in shock.

I'm in such shock.

We go down to the room together.

We spend a few minutes alone.

Then the whole team comes in.

They talk.

I don't think I can remember anything they said.

It was flying above my head.

They all left the room.

We know the news is waiting for us downstairs.

We prepared for not guilty, guilty and half and half verdict.

So we had our statements prepared that day.

We prepared them knowing what the different outcomes might be.

And my sisters were just collapsing, and I said to them, guys, we've got to go.

I'm okay, We've got to go, and they couldn't, and I was the strong one for them.

I stood there and was like, guys, we have to go outside.

We can't keep them waiting.

It's already five.

We need to go.

I'm okay, I'll be okay, I'll be okay.

And I just kept saying that.

I don't know what strength I had at that moment to say that and not to collapse in my grief and just like not want to face the world, but I just I gave them strength that I was okay, that we will go outside, we will face the media, and we will do this.

And eventually, within a few minutes they saw that I was okay and we walked out.

Amazing how you can react that way.

And we'll talk a little bit about that towards the end.

So what we've got here a situation and people fully understand the three of you who have been united in this fight to get justice, and then you've got a jury coming back.

And I know that you've described it other than I can describe it, But the pin dropped the tension of a packed court room, everyone's baited breath waiting for it to come out, and the first lot is not guilty, not guilty, and then finally get guilty.

Your sisters would have been satisfied the fact that the allegations that they made have been proven at court, But the fact that they're so upset, I think is quite endearing to the fact of what you mean to them, because they couldn't take comfort from their decisions because of what happened to you.

Yeah, okay, you've prepared, your prepared your media statements.

Yes, and that you've gone out there.

How is that fronting the media after all these years?

This is a long, as you said, over decades from the time the abuse until finally you get the words.

It wasn't hard for me because I was still in that mode of I'm okay.

Ellie and Dussy were a little bit more emotional.

They were speaking because you could see they were feeling it.

He answered a couple questions.

Was over pretty fast.

They followed us.

We kept trying to walk away.

They kept following, We kept trying to walk away, and then we're just kind of like like lost chicken.

We're like, what do we do now?

Where do we go?

I think my sister's husband booked us a place to stay for the night, and we knew we were going to be together that night.

And then I think the doccer crew wanted a bit of us, so we did a bit with them and then kind of just like flitted away and we went back to where we were staying, and we had a lot of news coming from overseas, and we're like, actually, we're just not talking to anyone tonight.

We actually can say that now we don't have to talk.

We can talk to everyone tomorrow.

We're not talking to anyone tonight.

Then Ellie said, okay, fine, just one is really a reporter because they're relentless, and it was the one that was like just not English second language.

So we ended up just like bursting into laughter by putting her a mute and then laughing and laughing, and then trying to give the question back to her and then going back, sorry I didn't hear it got disconnected, and then laughing again because the way she asked the questions, was just beyond when you're that tired and that emotional, beyond exhausted, where we have the best laughs and sisters the best And then one sister said that she's not after doing media the next day, she needs to break.

So Ellie and I did the project and again this is all me, still running on a journal and still in shock, still fronting strong and everything and everyone and presenting, and then the next morning after Sydney for passover, so I didn't have a chance to process any of it because it was bang bang, bang bang, as my life normally is.

Yes, you spoke to your family like your husband and your kids did.

How did they receive it?

Do we get their mum and wife back?

Now?

Is that?

I don't know if my kids felt that way.

I think that I feel like my family because I wasn't talking about it because I wasn't such shock, kind of not tiptoeing but kind of not really bringing it up.

And we're heading straight into a Jewish festival, so and those overseas visitors coming as well as us Sydney, so well, I was hardly there.

I think I was hardly present most of that festival.

I was dealing with the grief and the shock and the loss and all of that sadness that was coming up.

But it was devastating.

It was absolutely devastating, and it still is to this day.

It hasn't changed because all I wanted was justice and I didn't get that justice.

Can you take comfort from the fact that your sister's got justice?

And really, if it's you're in this together, but is it?

Can you take any comfort from it?

I can?

But what a lot of victim survivors who don't do their statements in groups or any others I have got and not guilty will know that a lot of other steps to justice are denied.

So when the plea hearing happened and my sister's got got up there to give their victim impact statement, that was the worst day for me.

That was the twenty eighth of June.

And I will never forget that day.

In a way, it's even worse than hearing.

Not guilty, because you couldn't get.

I was completely invalidated.

I almost didn't feel like I should even be in caught, couldn't get up to give a victim of state, You're.

Not real I'm gone.

That's it.

I'm out of the case completely, the sentencing, none of the whole sentencing, like not a single charge for me, and that she was in prison because of something she did to me.

So yes, comfort in the collective sense, but on a personal level, deeply broken.

I could imagine that then on you quiet moments, just stepping away on your own thinking about it, that you said how driven you were for justice, and then just just not at that point in time.

Recently, I've actually created a hashtag for myself for my TikTok, and it's my voice is My Justice.

And that's literally been what I've used in the last two weeks because I've realized I've had to slowly, very slowly understand I'm not going to get justice.

That even if a whole bunch of new chargers came up, even if it did get to the opp they wouldn't run a new trial, and they told me they can't because of the contamination and the high profile nature.

They can't.

So even if they accepted the statement, it doesn't matter.

So I'm not going to get that chance for justice.

So my voice is my justice, and Marco Laifer will not shut me up.

So I was very quiet for a couple of months, and I think my sisters told me after they were worried about me, that I would never recover and come out of it, still continuing life and gym and kids, but very quiet in any other sense.

And then that's it.

I stepped up, stepped out, and I've been advocating, spoken to the Prime Minister last year, been part of National Survivor's Day in good Faith foundation with the shild and Childhood Foundation.

Started studying law this year.

So I am just like, I'm not allowing that pain to completely derail my life.

Instead, I've switched it around and I've become a voice for survivors.

I've spoken at many events.

I've advocating and wanting to keep advocating as well as while I start studying law so that I can get into the system and help victims from the inside, not just from the advocacy space.

So I really turned around that pain to do something very very constructive and funnily enough, TikTok helped me a lot with that.

I opened TikTok and just started talking and people started sharing.

Started absolutely there's a whole incredible community of survivors there.

The amount of particularly older generation, old of me.

I just turned forty, disclosing to me for their first time on TikTok that they were abused when they were younger is incredible.

And I've created that space that people feel safe to share knowing that there's someone there that understands them.

And I've met some people in person through TikTok, like Australians.

I've invited some to National Survivors Day as well to give them the opportunity to be in a room full of survivors at an event.

And I really have used my voice to get my own justice.

That's worth while and what they think is amazing, how people and people that sit in this chair because I hear a lot of stories of different things.

We're a set back in life, a big set back, a hard thing, but defines who you are, how you react after that, and the fact that you're turning the horrible situation that you've found yourself into something positive and doing so good.

Your voice been your justice elderly and she passed away sadly.

Elaine Walker, Aboriginal elder was seeking justice for the murder of three children in their community and we couldn't get it through the courts and constant battles to try and get justice.

They've been fighting for over thirty years to get justice for the three children that have been murdered.

She would often say to me, justice comes in in many forms, and sometimes the justice is about telling our story, telling our people's story.

And I always hung on to that that.

I look at it from a policing point of view.

Justice had to be served through the courts, but you are getting just in another way.

You've been given a platform and you're using it, and you're using it to make a difference.

And the person that committed these offenses against you is the one that's sitting in jail now and you're out here helping people.

Yes, do you take solace from that what that's turned your life into.

I do.

It's hard sometimes I do still struggle with they're not guilty.

It's something that eats away at me.

But I'm working through therapy and through understanding that.

You're inter views in therapy.

No definitely, no more.

Okay, sorry I shouldn't know.

That's totally part of it.

But you've got to laugh.

Something absolutely, She asked me recently, because someone said to me that because of our story and their family hearing about Markoleefer.

Their family believed them finally after all these years, because she was abused by female pabitrader when she was younger.

So she said, do you take comfort from that?

And I said, I do.

I do, but I still have to work on my own hitting in the receiving, the not guilty part of it.

But I am working so hard on that in everything, in every way.

It's just something that will I think for a very very long time.

I think when a perpetrator has had that much control and impact on my life as a Michael life I did on mine, it takes that long almost to reverse all of that and to find myself and to realize that even if I'm still living in the community and still in the same area and I passed by the houses that she abused in or the school, I am safe now and I am the person that is not going to allow that to impact me twenty four to seven.

So it's a constant work in progress.

Well, that's a significant thing that you're looking at yourself being safe now that you're taking control of the situation and yeah, this isn't going to happen to me.

I'm stronger than that, and I haven't been broken, So it's really powerful messaging that you're getting across.

Do you feel supported by the community and your community and family.

Family, Absolutely, yep.

Community I think has a lot a long way to come and supporting survivors, and I think a lot of communities will probably need to learn the same.

I think they're still stigma associated with survivors of sexual abuse and the shame.

I think that a lot of people think that they know how to support survivors because they'll send a nice message, but they don't realize that they're silent speaks so much more than one message does that it needs to really particularly in our community.

The religious community needs to be from top down, whereas the leaders and the rabbi need to say this is how we're going to support survivors, so that survivors feel safe to come forward because they know they won't be shamed or ostracized or they won't be looked at differently.

So I'm hoping that my speaking out being a religious woman can impact that change.

Whether I am merit enough to see that happening in my lifetime, I don't know, but I hope that I can create a legacy that people can say a religious woman spoke out and still was able to stay connected and still in the community.

We can do the same.

We don't have to be so afraid that other people are going to look down at us and ostracize us.

I will say that I have felt people distancing from me because of that is something that I have to live with, because of the choices that I made to come out and still be in the community.

But I do not regret that.

And the fact is as well, is that I'm bringing up my children with so much joy and love and no fear and not the way that I was brought and just a little funny thing that it might be amusing, it might not be, but for me it is because it really portrays to me that I have not traumatized my children with my journey to justice.

My second son, who's now sixteen and a half, ran a camp in a school camp like as a youth leader in the winter, and he joked to me and he got back from camp that they were going to do in activity searching for Markolaefer.

And he laughed at that, and I laughed at that, and I said, no, you can't do that.

But that is showing how much I have not traumatized them, that they can say her name, that they can joke about an activity with that, that they cannot be afraid to share that with me, knowing that I will still laugh at it with their jo me exactly that, And that proves to me that I have not traumatized my children with what's happened to me.

I've worked so hard all my life, all those seventy five court hearings, that my children should not know what's happening.

Yes, they've got a mom that runs for the dinner table to a phone call or runs out the house to go around the corner for filming, but they didn't quite know what COVID hit.

They did have to know a little bit more.

But at the same time, I still protected them, and I still am protect them.

So it's really just a balanced way of letting them know that I'm a survivor, not about not giving them any details of the abuse.

That this is the woman, the prison, this is the prison she's in.

News comes out about you know about her here and there.

I don't mind to share that with them a little bit, but that's it.

So just a balanced way so they don't get impacted by my trolley.

Well, I think, if anything, that you're showing them the way that you should live life, that you can come back from things, you can you know, you don't have to be broken, you can take control.

Like I think it's inspirational.

The fact that you've also stayed connected with your church and your community.

That says something too, you like, I would imagine that.

I'm not judging anyone that does that, but when it's happened in that environment they distance themselves from the environment.

The fact that you can stay in contact and still work within that environment and operate within that environment, I think that says a lot too.

Yes, it's something that I've worked on for many years.

It's not something that's easy.

There are times that I feel very let down, I think for a good year and a half two year, and still even now, I feel quite betrayed and let down by the community as a whole, not individuals, because the community as a whole is incredible.

I made a bonments for recently and I received food packages and flowers and notes and messages, and I was like, Wow, I haven't made a celebration kind of thing in a couple of years.

This is what community is.

It's beautiful, but at the same time that part of the community is amazing, that part is not.

I wish that they would do the same celebrating or the same support or the same acknowledgment for a survivor.

And how can I create that change to happen so it's not so scary for them to do, so I do.

I will talk about it in conversations.

I'll say the premiere is coming up, or I'll say this, I'll say that because I'm going to put it into their faces.

I'll post it on my WhatsApp status.

You might not like it, and you will for sure not come, but I want you to know it's happening because we want to change.

We want to impact change.

My sisters and I are doing the documentary to impact change, to have conversations too.

We have the visibility, but we want something to be happening from this visibility.

We don't just want to share story for entertainment.

And that's why we met with Australian Childs Foundation yesterday to see how we can align with them and work with them and create impacting change.

And we'll keep doing that post the documentary coming out, and I hope some of those changes can veer into my community as well, and I know it does.

There was an author who was found out to be an abuser, a Jewish author overseas.

I called all the three schools that my kids were in and said, throw the books out.

And they're kids books that kids read.

I read them as a teenager.

My kids all read them.

They loved him as an author, and they did.

They threw out all the books and that's exactly and I'm not afraid to request that of them.

So it's changed that needs to happen, and I'm hoping I can be a part of that.

The documentary you mentioned is coming out on stan.

I believe, yes, Surviving Markolefer is a stand original.

Okay, Well, if a story covers off on what you've talked about here, I think it's something that's definitely worthwhile, worthwhile watching.

After everything that you've been through and your sisters on this whole journey you've been through, How does it feel to know that what you've been through is going to play out on the big screen with this documentary coming up.

My sisters and I are quite a little bit nervous for the documentary.

It is very vulnerable, it is raw, it is inspiring, It is an absolute rollercoaster.

It is ninety five minutes of absolute packed, packed minutes of our journey, and we filmed for five years.

To have that reduced to ninety five minutes feels unfair, but it has done so well and we are so hopeful that people see the story for the whole, the entirety of the story, not just any agenda.

Abuse happens in every community, in every religion, in every country all over the world, and we broke the silence, and we hope we can inspire others to do the same, and we can also impact change others are aware of what it looks like to be brought up in an abusive home and then be abused and then come out the other side post trauma growth.

Well, congratulations to you and your sisters for having the courage to do that.

I know one of the people behind the project, and I can't wait to wait to watch it.

I think it'll be really powerful.

As you described, yes, I think the fact that you are talking about it too, and as you're talking, I'm going, yes, that's what we need.

That's why these offenders have been allowed to flourish because sexual abuse, sexual assaults, it's confronting for people to talk about when red flags are seen or just says an icky feel or whatever.

Something doesn't feel right, people are uncomfortable talking about it.

I think the fact that you're coming out and talking about it and putting the light on it is important and it might prevent further things like this happening.

I really hope so, and I hope watching the documentary and seeing what went on in our case can cause people to think, Wow, that all went on under our noses and we didn't notice.

Let's notice more if there's a child that's consistently coming to school with a multi lunchbox or no food, or looking unkempt, something's going on, whether the mother's just emotionally struggling or not, or if the behaviors that are starting to look a little bit suspicious and not appropriate for children.

Go don't just blame the child, look further, find out what's going on in the family, who's having access to their child, what they're seeing, and start understanding more that every child is a world of their own, and if you don't notice, those children step through the cracks.

And it's upon us as adults to notice the children in our lives.

You weren't given the opportunity to do a victim impact statement at the court, and I'm sorry just dropping you on the spot here.

What would you want to say if she was sitting in the scene in the court and you could face it down, and what would you say there?

I'll answer that in a minute.

I did do a victim impact statement on TikTok in seven parts.

It is graphic, it is confronting, it is heart wrenching, but it's my truth.

And I did do it in seven parts, so seven minutes long.

And if I would have had a chance to say that in good I guarantee that everyone would have been crying.

But what I would say to her is I would probably list everything she did and without flinching, because you can't shy away from what you did to me.

Those four rapes and indissent assault is like not even a drop in the ocean of what you have done to me, and then explain to her the impact of all of that.

But at the end to day, but you cannot break me, and you cannot take away my life.

I'm taking it back what you took and I'm going to show you that what you have done to me is not going to break me and not going to impact me the way you think it did or you.

It's so hard because she's never admitted any remorse, any guilt, anything.

The way she's stood in court was so confident, so arrogant.

It was like coming off her in waves.

She stared down the judge, she stared down the jury.

She stood in a way her body language was I've got this.

And even the prison guy said to us she had her suitcases packed on the day of the verdict, that she's going to Israel that night.

That's how confident she was and that's the confidence she ran the school.

So for me to be able to say you did and list literally everything and the impact is just knocking a little chink in the armor that she has of confidence.

No, you did all of that, and you're in jail because of that.

And my vicdim impact statement is a lot.

It's quite I say it without emotion, obviously, but it's very it's really heart entering.

Powerful.

Yeah, very very strightful in regards to what the comments that the judge judge made on sensing and of course he's referring to your two sisters, not yourself.

There is something that I won't bog us down with it, but there was something that the judge made a comment that the type of situation that you found yourself in, so the evidence that you gave helped put into context what happened to your sisters as well.

So the evidence that you gave something resonated within the jury that Okay, well this is a pattern that's clearly occurred.

So I think you could probably take some comfort from that that, yeah, well, everything else you did both sides, going out of the Israel three or four times and completely pushing and pushing you made a difference at the trial too, So I don't think your evidence was ignored.

They just who knows why juries make decisions, but just the judge made these comments.

I wish to make the following brief observations.

There's been a significant delay more than fifteen years between when these offenses were committed and when the trial was held, as the victim impact statements were not made until after the jury convicted Miss Lifer.

The victims have been able to address the ongoing impact of this offending has had on them during the entire period.

For each of them, it has been profound and life changing.

What they have described comes as no surprise given the nature and seriousness of the offending.

Our criminal courts are regularly informed about the serious and deliritous impact that sexual offending against young or vulnerable has.

To the extent that the victims feel a personal sense of guilt or shame for what occurred, they should not.

They were completely innocent victims of the predatory behavior of miss Lifer and it is she and she alone who should be found guilty and ashamed for what occurred.

So, yeah, the judge got it.

Yeah, it's not about the victims.

It's not about victim shame.

It's one person to blame blame for this whole thing.

Two.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of victims.

Yeah, that they have been through similar situations as yourself and survivors, people who are fighting for justice like you had to fight for justice.

What message would you give to them if they're feeling like they're not going to get justice, they're hitting the head against a brick wall basically and just fighting the system.

What sort of advice?

What things would you say to them?

I don't have any regrets doing what I did, even though I didn't get justice.

I believe that every single time a victim survivor has the opportunity, has the strength to go to court.

They are forcing the abuser to be held accountable on some level, even if it doesn't result in it guilty plea.

So for anyone that has a strength and ability to do so, keep going for it.

Our justice system needs us victim survivors to help them bring the predators and abusers to justice.

So don't give up good advice.

How's your life now?

You've talked about what you're doing.

How are you within yourself after being through because what you've been through is terribly traumatic for an extended period of time and fighting, how do you look at life now?

That's probably a better question.

I think it's interesting for me because I think because of all the time I've been through my life, childhood and adulthood and Markelaifa, I was in quite a severe state of association and numbness, and interestingly enough, the verdict broke that it caused this emotion to come out because it was that impactful, And since then I would say that I've had probably a healthier ability to process really difficult stuff.

And funnily enough, post the trial, maybe because I've had to prove to myself that Michael Life had did abuse me.

Despite the court finding lots, I've remembered so much more of what she's done.

It's becoming clearer and clearer to me.

It means obviously, I'm mentally able to remember a lot more and able to understand the impact and the depth of the level of her abuse and how evil she was, and then work through it in therapy, so coming out the other side.

So I have hope that one day soon she will not be the first thing I think of and the last thing I think of every day, which does still happen just because of the nature of the space I'm in and the healing that I'm trying to do, but I do.

There has been maybe two moments in the last year where I've noted and I've shared publicly that I had an event or a couple of hours where she wasn't the first thing that that was in my mind, or she wasn't existent at all.

And that's hope is hope, and that's what I'm aiming for more and more of.

She got fifteen years I think in was it fifteen years since.

Eleven point five and fifteen?

Yes?

Do you think that was long enough?

Now that's a dumb question.

You'd never think it's long enough.

It's I think, looking at the sentencing table that was set out for our case, I don't know if they are set out like that for others.

No, I don't think it was long enough.

The amount of charges eighteen charges, some of them very very serious charges.

My issue is I don't trust for a minute that she will not leave jail or go back to Israel and abuse again.

And there are many that think.

Like that well, with the past history.

And her lack of remorse and accountability, and I just will do everything I can to make sure that wherever she goes to live, the people there know she's not a safe person.

I think that's fair enough.

If people want to reach out to you all the type of things that you're doing, you said you're speaking up.

Where where's the best place to find you?

Instagram breaking the silence?

Now is my name and TikTok Nicole Meyer so easy?

People contact me on their Facebook LinkedIn.

I'm pretty much everywhere Nicole Meyer everywhere else.

Yeah, well, look, I've enjoyed the enjoyed the chat, and I was worried about you.

Happen to take you through reliving what's occurred.

But I've walked away from this inspired.

Like really, I think when bad things happen, how people react to that.

There is a testament to the person that you are, how hard you fought for justice.

I know how painful that can be, and it breaks many a person trying to get justice.

But you just continued and hung in there, and you know you didn't get the verdict that you wanted by the jury, but I think you've got justice in so many other ways, making the person responsible for impacting on your life accountable and so full credit to you.

Thank you, it's been a great chack.

Yes, thank you.

Cheers.