The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

Detective see a side of life.

The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

That's what I did for a living.

I was a homicide detective.

I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys.

Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.

The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to.

Some of the content and language might be confronting.

That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

Join me now as I take you into this world.

Welcome to a bonus episode of Ye Catch Killers.

This is an episode I wish we weren't having.

At the time of recording this episode, there's been a terrorist attack at Bondo Beach less than twenty four hours ago.

We don't know exactly what this has happened, but this is what we do know.

About six forty five pm on Sunday, the fourteenth of December, two gunmen shot multiple people at Bondo beach.

It appears the intended targets were people gathered to celebrate the first day of the Jewish Honiker religious festival.

At this stage, one gunman has been killed.

The other is in custody and is in a critical condition.

But before the gunmen were neutralized by police, they had shot and killed multiple people.

At this stage, fifteen innocent people had deceased and there's more than forty people that are in hospital, some of with critical injuries.

The incident has been declared a terrorist incident by a New South Wales Police Commission of mal Lanyon, the New South Wales Premier and the Australian Prime Minister has condemned what occurred down there.

This truly is a sad day for all of Australia.

It's probably the worst terrorist incident we've had on home soil, and my heart go out to all the victims, the people who have lost their lives, their loved ones, the injured people, anyone that was caught up in this senseless violence.

This really is a sad day for this country.

Peter Moroni, thanks for joining me on I Catch Killers.

Welcome.

Thanks, Sorry it's in these circumstances and yeah, it's less than twenty four hours since the Bondai massacre, which has been referred to the moment has occurred.

I thought i'd get you back on the podcast because of your expertise in counter terrorism.

You're a counter terrorist detective for a very long time and worked on some major investigations with the New South Wales Police and the work that doing since retiring from the police is very much in keeping with that.

I just want to get your thoughts.

So the purpose of the podcast here is to give people an understanding.

I think we've all been shocked what we started to witness on a Sunday afternoon, hot summer's night in Sydney where we're all settling down the phone star's pinging, or if you're listening to the media, you're starting to get at reports of the gunman or shots fired.

That was the first thing I heard, shots fired down in Bondi.

I thought a bit strange, but that didn't realize the significantance of it.

Then I got a text from my daughter dad, have you seen what's going on in Bondi?

And that made me switch on the media and get a sense of it.

When did you find out about it?

Probably most people made I am monster.

I was having a beer at a maze place and I've got a text I was one of the media out there's actually and I just thought, I doesn't it's not real.

Yeah, it should be all right sort of thing, or perhaps you know, not to downplay, but perhaps another gang related shooting.

Yeah that's going on.

But as you say, the phone lit up and didn't stop so and then you started to scroll through social media and in came the links and got sent through a few videos and there it started to resonate, and you know, probably like a lot of people.

Mate, you know, we've been around for a little bit of time.

But I think the first thing was anger at just a cowardness of what I was seeing on the video.

Anger was probably the first thing that stayed in my mind for about an hour.

Just the random nature of it.

You know, we've both been in the police.

We understand the power of firearms and the damage they can do, and seeing long long arms being used in the area like Bondai Beach on a Sunday afternoon, that anger is probably a natural reaction to it.

Yeah, you know, look at.

Not any probably different to any other bloke that's been out of the cops now, but you still resonate and understand that kind of act and what that type of act is going to do obviously not only physical to the people that are being shot, but the emotional issues that are going to torment those victims, the victims families and no doubt the first responders as well.

Mate, that there's a lot left over after that first shot rings out.

My understanding is it's the biggest a terrorist incident in Australia on home soil.

Would that be fair to say that's it?

Certainly as I understand it that at this point in time, as you and I speak, I understand there is sixteen people that have unfortunately passed away up to forty that are injured.

There is no other and it's been called for what it is.

It's been called the Terrorist Act and it would certainly have to be well, it is the biggest terrorist based incident in Australia has ever seen to date.

Yeah, and we're hoping we're going to avoid that.

With your expertise in counter terrorism, you understand the consequences of when something like this can occur and the efforts that and I know you've been involved in some investigations where this type of thing has been prevented on large scales.

What's your sense or how difficult it is for police to prevent these type of type of attacks.

It's a really tough question to answer.

If I could put it in the most simplest terms and explain it is that law enforcement and Asia have dropped the ball.

And what I mean by that, respectfully, is that we have sixteen people at this point in time dead from a terrorist related incident.

It's something that's going to come to the forefront.

And Commissioner Mallennion is an exceptionally smart man, Mike Burgess equally, so they know those questions are going to come.

How easy is it to stop?

It's probably a question that I struggle to probably give you an answer because it depends on who is the individual, Are they connected to a particular other individual, particular cell, particular certain faith, how much bridge we've got over those people.

So a whole lot of things come in, like people just think that you could pick this person up and there's a bit of a trend happening and we can target them.

And I think back to the first podcast we did when I try to explain a lot around terrorism.

Is your breadcrumbs are gone, like you know, your indicators are gone generally, So I have no doubt we'll trawl over the next twelve months now and unpack those individuals' lives and unpack the connections and all of those certain things.

But to try to go a long way around answer real simple question for you, it's very difficult to prevent, particularly now in terms of the ability for them to communicate across multiple social media platforms, which buries it underground even harder.

It's still a lot still to come out at the moment, whether these guys were part of a greater grip or were they self radicalized and operating on their own.

If that is the latter is the case, and it's going to be very difficult because it's just a father and son.

It's like there's two of them, but it's almost the lone actor.

Just there happens to be two of them, and the relationship between the father and son there might be one as a power and the other one is a follower who knows what's happened?

Was I watched and you know, I was glued to seeing what had occurred.

I thought it was good messaging from the police.

I thought Mount Lanyon hit the points at such an early early stage in the investigation, and yeah, if mistakes were made, and I'm not saying saying they were with identified, I think our response to this type of situation has improved since the Linked cafe, and that was eleven years ago.

I thought there was and I was involved in that.

There was a little bit of chaos around that, but a lot of lessons were learned, I think, sadly in recent times.

The BONDI the stabbings taught again about about the response.

Watching from the outside, What did you take away from the response by emergency services, not just police, ambulance and everyone else that was heavily involved.

Yeah, look, it's you're right, you know that.

It's as sad as those past events are, we do learn from them, and as you know, you take those learnings and you plug them back into your operating procedures to try to tighten those and go on.

I've had a couple of different pieces of commentary come at me over the last six or so hours talking about the police response, and I understand from what I've been told that it was nine minutes from the first shot to the last shot being fired.

When they're killed or one of them are killed a lot.

Now the other argument as well, the police are on the updrate, or there were police working operationally at the time.

What I'd like.

To try to get across is that if I am out there operating as a police officer, they will certainly hear those shots.

But I've spoke to people this morning that was on the beach yesterday coming out of the surf, and I was talking to one particular lady and she said to me that she first thought it was fireworks that was going off, and then it kicked in to go what's daytime?

Yeah, that doesn't that doesn't compute.

And then it's so she said to herself, well, it sounds like a gun.

And I said, how long did it take it to actually resonate to go it is a gun?

She has minute and a half.

So I say that in that it's that idyllic Sunday afternoon and no one's anticipating it.

Now, let's look at the police perspective, right, is they are there on the beach, or they are on route, they would be getting bombarded with multiple reports of a shooter or shooters.

Yep, I would have no doubt there, But it would have been confusion about the number of shooters that were active.

There would have been absolutely confusion, I would imagine around the type of weapon and why that becomes important.

Go is you know, is it am I driving into someone with a pistol a clock for example?

On my driving into as it was into someone who's got a long arm that we've seen there from the footage that one of the fellows had on.

One of the rifles had a scope, so that can obviously be designed to pick you off from a greater distance.

So all of these things are going through the police's mind in terms of where they're going to park, where they're going to pull up, the offenders are on the go, how do they get across to them?

And I've seen footage of a young female constable that was sort of leapfrogging up the side of the cars to get out one of the offenders.

It's overall, you know, people can say, well, it's a police's job, that's what you signed up to do.

Yeah it is, and.

Don't why not, don't argue that, but you know, look, they still leaped into the fire.

From all of the evidence that I've seen, they still went at it.

Knowing full well that they could pay, and there's two police that are being injured, and they did what they had to do.

And I think to date, unless anyone can come forward with any other suggestion of any other behavior by the cops, I think they've done a hell of a job.

Now, is the nine minutes a long time?

It would be.

It is if you're sitting out there getting shot at.

But compound that to the police, because if the police come in hard and fast and get taken out in the first few minutes, no help to anyone.

They haven't achieved anything, nothing at all.

Well, I think the way you described that there outlines the complexity of what happens in the situation like that.

Hindsight's a wonderful thing.

We're all experts in the hindsight.

We did make improvements, I think improvements, and I think that was generated from incidents that happened in the United States.

We're active shooter and the response to police.

It's not contained in the gachet that's not sealed off bondai and wait till the tactical police there.

If it's an active shooter, the police role is to go in and finish the threat, to stop the stop the threat.

Yeah, your thoughts on that is the way that we've got to respond because it's a different world in the scope that we live in now, isn't it.

The active shooter response is the appropriate response.

Yeah.

Look, you know, and if we rewinder our clock back a little bit, is that our traditional container negay shape.

It always comes off the back end of what's say a bank robbery gone wrong, whether they might have been sche masked up or their identities are hidden.

So if I'm hiding my identities, I come in to do a crime, I've got the intention to get away with it and move on.

The first thing that resonates with those two shooters from yesterday as soon as you see that first picture, no attempt to cover up their identity.

So what that tells you from the outset is I am here.

I'm here to cause as much death and mayem as I possibly can, and the only way it's going to stop is when you shoot me.

Because I haven't covered their identity, they don't care.

There was no plan escape.

They were going to go and go until they died.

From your experience in countert rorism, and we talked before we started recording about the magnitude of the crime scene.

You were down there this morning, so yeah, less than twelve hours after the event.

What was your takeaway from that?

Then?

How big is the crime scene we're looking at?

That's huge.

It's Bread's entire length of the beach.

Now whilst people you know, a couple of reporters that I said to me, why is the entire Campbell Parade basically raped off?

Going all the way down to the far left of Campbell Parade is where I believe the vehicle was with the ied, So the bomb squad we're working down there.

Coming up a little bit to that bridge is where the main main fatalities were.

It's heavily saturated with evidence, as one would imagine.

But in terms of why do you rape off the entire rest of it, it's purely because as people are running, they're victims, potentially they're dropping evidence as they go at that relevant time, you know, mate, in terms of homicide crime scenes, far better I've got one go, Yeah, I'm far better.

I mean to go out and secure everything I practically can secure.

And as you know, we as we work that crime scene and we get more information and intelligence coming about the particular crime we're looking at that crime scene will come in a little bit, but it's it's big.

It was very somber this morning.

There was each corner.

I had all of the various major press outlets.

It's a bit of a who's who of morning TV so to speak down there.

There was pleasantries explain exchange between each of them, but it was a very somber mood.

It hits the psyche of a city like Sydney and the country for that matter, that it's widespread with the actual crime scene and the era.

And you mentioned the IED, so have you got there.

What's the latest update on that, because there was a suggestion and what we're talking about improvised explosive devices and there was concerns that they were around around the era.

Yeah, I understand.

My last piece of information around that is that there was two found in the vehicle that they drove in are there are two IEDs that have been since disarmed, but they were to be ignited via a ignition so ignited via a wick.

So what that would sort of generally suggest is that quite clearly it's light it and throw it.

Now.

I understand from a thing was from the press conference that was put out by Commissioner Onnion that they were found in the vehicle and disarmed.

Now why they didn't come out and why they didn't get used or who will never know, but they weren't.

And that's another consideration for police too on this.

And I'm not trying to justify or whatever with police action, but coordinating off the scene.

It wouldn't be the first time that the terrorist side has happened and then they're waiting for a secondary attack where people have come in.

It's you know, it's the methodology of them.

And there's numerous attacks around around the world that are happened, and what they'll often be is that, yes, the initial terrorist act has occurred, and what will be staged around that area are other potential offenders or other vehicles that are stoked with IEDs.

Then the point around that could be twofold.

It'll be one the initial chaos will occur and people will run and spread and then so the device can be activated to take them out.

Or more traditionally, how it's been used in the past is we know law enforcement will come in on mass and that second device and even sometimes a third device is designed to take out those first responders.

Again drawing on your experience working in counter terrorism.

The strike force that's been set up to investigate this, well, I would imagine that it's huge.

Who will that involve, what sort.

Of It's a great question.

It will involve everyone.

So probably as you know, if you remember back to your day, that there is a particular strike force that set up, there's already pre planned tasks set in there, of course, but they'll grow as we go, but pre planned points of responsibilities.

Obviously, State crime will come in, will be led by the counter Terrorism Coordination Command which is will essentially be run by what we call the Joint counter Terrorism Commands and involve the AFP and the New South Wales Police supported by State Crime and LAC Local Area Command detectives.

But look, it's no secret Asia are going to be there.

They're going to plug that information in New South Wales Crime Commission will be there in their capacity and as I understand that, the AFP everybody started to play a number of tactical resources into the area as well.

If there's needs, surveillance will continue and that will come in from probably all around the state and act I'd.

Imagine, Okay, so multi multi agencies, the other thing that very early in the after the incident that Commissional Lenion declared the Terrace incident.

What's the significance of that and what does a commissioner need to declare it the terrace incident.

Yeah, the main significance around it is it's it allows him to identify, for example, a particular area might help him.

Let him identify a particular description of a person or a vehicle, for example, and basically say I'll make this up here as an example, and put a blanket over a particular postcode, or put a blanket over a certain streat or certain aspects of a suburb, and say anything contained in there is subject now to the powers.

And that could be stop, search and detain, It could be go into the house and do what we need to do.

It could be removal of your phone.

So they'll be very broader power.

So in the days where for example, we might have needed to say a search oneant, you know, we've got to go through the Affidavid process up into the courts, et cetera.

With these powers, it basically.

Becomes an automatic go do what you need to do in accordance with that legislation.

So it frees them up drastically to do that, and to do that he actually stepped that out on his press release last night, and it was just a matter of getting a true understanding that the crime itself was connected or likely to be connected to an act of terrorism.

He said.

He was set aside of that very quickly and acted those powers.

And those powers are why you saw that sift, swift response last night.

We're talking about the other premises that were I think it was from Brig were executed warrants or gained entry into the premises.

Yeah, so they did that and that's what enables you to do because as you can imagine, what we're trying to do, he is move very swiftly to prevent either the loss or destruction of evidence, but also to get ahead of capturing if there's any potential known offenders out there.

And it just allows for a very swift response as opposed to going through what we might have to normally go through with warrants, et cetera.

Yeah, understood.

With the situation, the way it's occurred and the police response in the lead up to this, there's been a lot, i'd describe, and Sydney based, there's been a lot of discontent within the community.

There's been protests Someday afternoon, there was multiple protests for the past six months or even longer.

Do you think that fuels an environment where this type of thing can happen, where there's ideology, is very strong ideologies and people have strong, strong views.

Yeah.

Look, I think if I said I know it's had no impact, I think I'd be lying.

When when you see what we see play out over the last six months, and everyone I've spoke to from much like yourself made is when unfortunately something like this happens, is you jump on the old network and there's a number of stories been exchanged.

But when you've got that type of rehtoric being pushed out there, or that one particular point of view being pushed out there, and here's a ver this has put to me about half an hour ago before I come on in.

In terms of the right wing extremist protests, we saw absolutely opponent.

Don't get me wrong, I understand as a South African fellow deported from the country within days.

Yet let's look at the other side.

Let's look at the protests that have been run.

Let's look at the permitted mass flags, which is a terrorist organization that have been permitted to fly.

Let's look at.

The disproportionate response in terms of let that walk.

We're going to cut that one off at the knees and push it out.

If we're going to do this properly and in the most polite terms as I can put it.

You're in Australia.

We have our culture, we have our laws, we have our rules.

No different if you and I went overseas to any particular country.

The first thing we do is we are bid by their laws, their rules, their customs.

Now they have avoided by our rules in the sense that they protested, and they protested lawfully.

But the vast number of mixed messages that it's being sent out is here we have rightly.

So this fellow on the right wing extremism South African at that point protested in silence, deported and not saying he shouldn't have been.

But let's go the other way.

We've got supporters of Hermas flying a flag they celebrate a year to the date of the attacks in Israel.

How on earth does that even balance itself?

It doesn't, So should we now expect to see either Well, clearly, the individual that's still alive.

He's going to obviously stand trial.

But what about now if we find and we cast the net a bit wider and we start to find now people that may be aided are bettered in some description.

Are we going to punt them?

Are we going to deport them out of the country back to where they come from?

That'll be a key question.

Yeah, it's a different situation because it's a complex situation.

I look at this and when you've got ideologies one extreme side and the other extreme side.

And I think it was Dave Gore, our Good Mates made based on his book, a former counter terrace operator but also an academic, and talking about when the right wing rises, you like starting to be a concern to law enforcement.

You don't just have to concentrate on the right wing because the left wing will rise together.

What I got the sense of, and I'm no expert in this field, but what I got the sense of in this city there was such strong polarizing views.

And what you're talking about is how does law enforcement deal with that?

Do you deal with it across the board?

The thing that saddens me about this mostly is it looks like a particular group was targeted, but it's our whole community, how society has been targeted when we're bringing this.

And I think we lived in a world perhaps naively because I know you and I speaking, and it didn't surprise us that this has happened, and other people involved in the world a little bit in detail hasn't come as a surprise.

But we felt like we were different and this is sort of showing that we're not different and this type of violence can impact on us.

Yeah, look at you know, it's sad.

You know, like I hear on the radio at times and people saying to me, you know that this is not the Australia that we knew.

You know, this is not the Australia we grew up with.

Well it's not.

We've changed as a country.

The world's changed for that matter, and sometimes not for the better.

It doesn't mean we have to accept it though, But you know, this is where that defining moment now is is well, what are we going to do about this as a nation?

What is the rhetoric and the tone and the stance that our government is now going to take.

Where's the line in the sand that people can't cross now?

And how are we going to.

Enforce that we're not immune to it.

No we're not, mate, No, look we're not at all.

And you know, because people move to this country and irrespective of where they're from, they don't check their world problems at customs.

Those problems come with them over the border.

Now I'm not saying before I get shouted down about multiculturalism and all these things.

I had a lot of great mates Italians, Greeks, Vietnamese, Chinese, whatever you're like, a lot of great mates.

Immigration has done a lot for this country.

Multiculturalism has done a lot for this country.

But at the same token, you cannot expect to open your gates bring in a million plus people in the last three years and go to them.

Come, but just check all your baggage at customs and don't bring that with you.

It's not logic, it's not going to happen.

Those problems will come.

So the problems will come.

Now now it's an issue on back on law enforcement, back on the government of New Southward Australia to actually turn your head around and go it is now foreseeable that these problems will come over the border.

These problems are going to come to our shores.

What do we do big conversation, but you've got to have it.

Well, it is a big conversation, and it's very divisive, like just having that conversation that polarizes people just offering an opinion that way, Maybe we need to all take a step back and have a balanced conversation where we're not it's not such an inflammatory comments that just escalate.

Because that's what's worried me in this environment.

I've just felt like it's almost like it was inevitable the way this was building up.

Yeah, well that was certainly.

And it's funny, you know, I've spoke to a few people today and they've all said the same thing.

You know, they could feel that powder cake just coming and coming and coming, and I was just going to be a matter of time.

And I totally concur with you, mate, that right now is not the time to respond.

Yeah, by all means.

And what I mean is sure, we're going to respond to what we're dealing with.

We're going to put some measures in place.

Absolutely we'll do that, but let's take a step back.

Let's do what we can do now for the victims.

Let us do what we can do for the community or bondai for the Jewish community for the greater Austrayian community.

Then when we're measured, let's start talking some real talk.

Make the decisions.

Yeah, I also I can't help but think it plays into it.

Then we can reference the father and son per betrayers, put them in the category of a lone actor.

But mental health issues come into this.

So it's multi layered, isn't it multi layer in terms of what sets a person off?

And you've made a very valid point.

The moment they turn up and they're not mass they're not covering their face, they had no escape plan that was they were going to shoot it out until someone shot them.

Yeah, you're right, and you make a very good point.

There may too in that if we had this conversation maybe say ten years ago trip we would be traditionally then talking Islamic terrorism, because that's what our main concern was back in the day.

But to your very valid point, we are now dealing with right wing, left wing take your pick of any other letters that were floating around out there.

But also it's now about the mental health aspect that's floating out We saw that probably kicking out of Bondai at Westfields obviously as a bit of a central piece.

So now all of that gets wrapped up into the powder kick and it's about then the responding police showing up to go well, which particular issue am I actually trying to confront versus just trying to deal with what they're dealing with.

So there's so much and I speak to a lot of police that their work through mental health and attending to mental health crisis has phenomenally gone through the roof.

There's several clients that I've got that I do reviews for based on the violence to their staff from mental health patience.

It's driving it through the roof.

It's driving those sorts of issues that are impacting, as you rightly say, made an impacting not only at a policing level, but at a society level and someone and someone the flow and effect goes.

One thing that I have always seen in policing that when incidents occur, we improve our practices.

And that's not even drawing any inference to the response or the lead up to this matter.

That's something that we played out over the next twelve months with all the investigations going.

But we learn when we first started going after serial killers, we're a naive in the way that that was approached, I'd like to think, and I just want to understand if you agree with it.

I'd like to think whatever happens from this, the response by the police, not just a response to an incident, preparing for an incident and preventing incident will improve.

Yeah, well, and that comes for a lot of your listeners that we know what's going to come is obviously going to be the criminal side of the house for the shooter that's left, but the larger coronial part that will come and it's often out of those coronial reviews go as you know, is that it will look at, for example, process procedure and communications.

Was there any failures on the policing side, Is there any additional advancement on equipment that could be given into the police, And they will look at a bit of a root cause analysis around what else may have contributed, and that'll be multi layered.

But you're right, the whole point around that is then the current is going to make unthane recommendations to the police and then the police will take that.

They will then fine tune our procedures again and off we go, and the old container negotiates the perfect example that's how we always.

Thought it was done.

Then it's shown to not that's retard the way we want it.

It doesn't work in terror of situations, so that it's it's been refined and now we've now we're dealing with what we deal with.

So yeah, I totally would agree that.

A complete hooless bolus assessment of what went right and what went wrong will come and then flowing on for that will be procedural shifts.

And what about the role of the public in these situations too?

That the intel that we get from police, We've got creative ways of getting the intel, but a large part of it is from information provided to the public from the public, and it might be considered the throw away line that this type of information should be passed on the law enforcement.

Would that be.

Absolutely, it's in a not too dissimilar approach.

I talked to a lot of schools around active armed defenders, and what we talked to them about is there's been various studies done, for example, overseas, and interview has done of either teachers or students that were made aware of some threats being made by the eventual perpetrators, and they were interviewed and they were interviewed in terms of all if you knew something, what in you say something?

And the common adage of you know, I didn't think it was real.

I didn't think they were serious.

I didn't think it would happen here.

I didn't want to be a snitch, and I didn't want to cause any problems or float.

And as I can probably say to that.

Is, leave that to the police.

Report it because you don't know what one simple piece of your puzzle is.

But when I match it against the other two, three, four, five pieces of information that I actually also have, as you know, our puzzle becomes a bigger picture, and now we can put some reliant, some credibility on this thing and start to attack it properly.

In that sense, So I know it's you know, if you see say something, say something, but please, by all means don't.

You're not going to cause any headache to the police.

That's the job.

Get us the information and let them make that the police.

Prefer to have that information.

I think it's also important what you touched on about focusing on the victims, the people who have been impacted upon.

I'm a big believer in don't give any airtime to the perpetrators, and they're not dying as saviors or martyrs.

That they're cowards and it's the most cowardly thing you can do to attack.

In this absolutely, and you may not ever notice.

But if I ever do an interview, I'll never mentioned the name of the offender.

Ever.

I don't want that person doesn't have the right to have their name reference to all, whether they're alive or dead.

And it would be my wish that the media.

Black it out.

Yeah, go simon on them.

Just call them the offender or whoever will pick another word, but don't reference their name.

Well, not this simmer lesser scale, but still the consequences on the coward punch, just changing the narrative.

It's not a king hit.

It was a coward punch.

Absolutely, these are coward cowardly attacks.

But look, a lot's going to come out from from what happened response, looking at the individuals, the emergency services, the police response, the community response.

It made you made you proud.

Yeah, it did.

You know.

I went down to Bondaio this morning, as I said, and you'll know what I mean, And you walk down there and knowing full well that as you step around this corner.

What was here twelve hours ago?

It was It's Bondai.

It was a Sunday afternoon.

It was full of life, it was full of happiness, it was full of laughter.

It was silent.

It was just eerily silent.

All of us.

There were were media, there was a few onlookers that came out at night.

The we'll often probably hear about police, police, police, but the ambulance officers, fire and rescue officers, the ses that played the part.

The lifeguards at Bondai.

I spoke to one this morning who was still having difficulty coming to grips with what they saw.

But you're right, you know that, I think, no matter what we go through in Australia, that will always stand up and take on whatever it is we've got to take on.

But yeah, it's all of those first responders.

You know, they should stand proud, they should stand tall, and as you and I have spoken about before, once the does settles, if you need to help go and get it.

Yeah, no, definitely, because I think there's going to be a lot of people affected by what they've experienced in this this incident.

First responders, life savers, the the ambos, all the doctors, the nurses in the in the hospital, but also members of the public like acts of bravery that that dude that's grabbed the blake with the rifle.

Good on him, you know.

Just phenomenal, wasn't it.

You know that he had that option to stay where he was, He did not have to step out into the fray, so to speak, but he did it, and you know, good on him.

And they're the ones that we do.

So I mean that that is at the top echelon of someone who's done it.

But I suspect Gays you you will know made it over when we start to hear these stories unpack a little bit more, there's going to be so many little stories like that that that drift out, and it'd be it'd be awesome that those stories reach reach the light and we get to hear about.

And that when you call it a terror sack, that hits back at terrorist going you're not going to break us.

And I think that's a good way to approach.

It, absolutely, And we've got to stay on that focus and we've got to stay in that direction and just show that you can come, you can do what you're going to do, but we're not going to change we're not going to bow down.

Yeah, thank you for coming on so early in the piece.

And I know you've you've spoken to quite a few people, but that's your your expertise, and I think it's important to have this discussion too.

I think people need to understand what's behind all this, how the response is because other other than that, like you've had a phone call from an elderly relative that just in mad panic, thinking the you know the world's going to stop as yeah, the incidents and they see how it plays out on TV.

I thought mal Lanyon made a point and I think also the Premier made a point that let's not live in a heightened, heightened state of fear.

This is something that we're in place, we can deal with, we can manage it.

We will manage it.

And I think I heard two of them say we're going to come no stone unturned, and that's the way an investigation like this will be approached.

Oh yeah, and it has to be, doesn't it.

You know that we've got a good, bad or ugly.

Whether that stone yields something that perhaps shows what the police may or as may have missed, we'll have to deal with that.

But the public had got to have confidence at the moment.

Let's face it that the public confidence may not be see behind in the sense of going, well, he told us to trust you, and how did this actually even happen?

I get that.

What we've got to hold on to now is let them get the job done.

Then there will come that time to ask questions.

And for whatever is worth from an ex detective to your listeners is we've got to step up now and have an actual, real conversation about the real issues that are occurring now in this country.

Yes, influence from what he's over over the other side of the world, but let's have that conversation.

Let's turn those rocks over good, bad, ugly or indifferent, and then let's find a solution to would be would be my guidance?

Well good, good way to finish after speaking to you, I'm also speaking to Nathan Brooks as psychologist from New Zealand Police and he's had a lot of experience and sort of delving into the mindset of these laying actor types and the difference between a mass killing and a terrorist act.

But I think these are all the things that we've got to discuss so we understand what we're doing.

Yeah, let's hope we're not having this conversation again again soon.

It's good to see him, but good.

To see thanks for having me in Yeah, taking the time.

Cheers, Thank you, doctor Nathan Brooks.

Thanks for joining me on I Catch Killers.

It's good to talk again, Gary, And unfortunately it's under very tragic circumstances.

Yeah.

As much as I enjoyed talking to you last time, I was hoping we wouldn't be talking this recent after you last appeared on I Catch Killers, but the recent events less than twenty four hours ago.

It's a situation that we've all dreaded.

It's a horrible situation, but I thought we'd get a bit of an understanding.

Prior to speaking to you, I spoke to a counter terrorism expert from New South Wales.

What I'd like to talk to you about is getting an understanding of the type of people that might commit an offense like this.

Now, I fully understand we're in the very early stages of it and all the information hasn't come out, but it's been declared a terrorist attack by our the New South Wales Police Commissioner mal Lanyon very early in the piece declared the terrorist attack.

I know.

When I last spoke to you, we talked about the difference between terrorist attacks and a spree or rampage killing.

The fact that our commissioner has come out very early and called it a terrorist attack, what does that tell you in your expertise?

You look at my cavit garre before I start that, I'm affiliated with various agencies and I'm here on my own volition and not representing any of those today.

But when we talk about terrorism, we're really talking about an act that is socially or politically motivated, and there is the intent to try and create change and foster fear and even try and accelerate those social and political motivations for the cause.

That is underneath or underlying the intention and the motivation of the offending.

The fact that it's happened at Bondi Beach.

Leaning into the terrorist side of things.

If there's one location that's iconic with Sydney, Australia, it's Bondi Beach and worldwide attention that's a well known location.

Is that something that is often part of the act of terrorism.

To make sure that we create that situation where people are aware of what's occurred, I.

Think in general.

When we look at loan actor attacks, which at this stage this appears to fit into is people target will choose targets that will bring a lot of casualties, a lot of attention, that can be quite symbolic at times as well.

But they are in some ways, I guess, heavy patroned areas that allow people to ultimately maximize the casualties.

And that's why we see things like schools being targeted and are they heavily patron areas where they are able to within a matter of minutes inflict a high level of often lethal harm.

You referred to it as a loan actor event, and our understanding this stage, very early stages.

It was a father and son.

The fifty year old father was killed during the police operation and the son is in custody but in a critical condition, is my understanding at this point in time.

What does that tell you and why do we refer to it as loan actor when there's more than one perpetrator involved.

We have seen self initiated acts of violence over the years, such as the Columbine attack over in the US, where it can occasionally be in diads or triads or small groups of individuals that come together.

The will and Billa shooting in Queensland's probably another case where we had family members that were involved as well.

So when we have more than one or two people or a couple of people coming together, we can still call it load actor.

So these are individuals that are basically self initiated and acting on their own volition rather than at the direction of others or such as a terrorist group.

So often we think about it as just this self initiated movement towards violence.

And obviously we'll get more information as the weeks go on around whether there were greater connections abroad or even locally in New South Wales for instance, But at the moment the information seems to suggest this is self initiated a.

Father and son.

To me, we're talking to ideology when the terrorist aack occurs, generally it's acting on that ideology.

Does tell you anything about the family environment.

The fact that the father and son won the Schums were of the same belief in same ideology and wanted to take such extreme action.

Well, family relationships and dynamics can be very powerful and influential, can't they.

And it reminds me in some ways of the belt Away or DC sniper shooting case that we had with John Muhammad who was forty one and Lee Malvo who was a seventeen year old.

And Muhammad took Malvo under his wings and they had a somewhat of a father's son relationship, and he indoctrinated and coerced Malvo into carrying out the series of shootings which occurred over several months across the DC area.

I look at this as a mass shooting, terrorist attack as it's been defined.

How do we prevent that?

Now that's a very broad broad question, but we're looking at everyone's got beliefs ideologies, where those ideologies become extreme and when they start to act on the ideologies, how can that be?

Police still prevent it?

And I know you can speak from experience you work with the Enz police, you had the christ Church massacre.

Things like that.

They're very hard.

I'm looking at it from a former police officer's point of view, It's very hard to prevent this.

Yeah, Look, I think the recipe, or a simple analogy in some ways, is that being aggrieved loads the gun.

Then we have the person becoming fixated and psychologically preoccupied and that aims it.

And then from there we do the development of extremely overvalued beliefs and overweighted ideas then pulls the trigger.

So it's a simple way to think about things.

But we're talking about a series of processes that occurs for the person and that evolves over time.

Potentially in this case, we're talking about that dynamic between two people and how that's transpired and potentially one may have a more dominant influence on the other, but ultimately talking about the evolution and evolvement of that process.

And then when we think about prevention, we think about how do we identify that in the early stages, when there are grievances, when there are indicators of psychological preoccupation.

How do we get an intervention in there when that is developing, rather than at the point when the dials are so dialed up that we're simply hoping that we get lucky by receiving information that someone's days away from carrying out attacks.

So we really need to be looking at the markets early.

And we've spoken before about the brilliant role that Fixated Threat Assessment Center's played in this space around the triaging and allocating a support and resources for the folks.

So we have great systems in place, But of course people can operate in isolation, as we know with self initiative folks, and that creates enormous challenges in the information doesn't get out and doesn't flow.

I think when we spoke before, one of the things that we encourage was community support.

If anyone's acting behavior, their behavior is that little bit strange, that report it to authorities and bring it to their attention.

Would you reinforce that?

Absolutely?

You know, communities are at the heart of policing, and that information is as small or irrelevant as it may seem.

Sharing that with another family member, another friend, getting a different perspective is really crucial because they might be able to provide context around why they think it's concerning, and that then might allow another door to open and eventually share that information and again get it to the right people, even if it's community workers or culturally ais on people that are able to have the conversations and potentially shed some light on what might be going on.

And I suppose that small piece of information could be the critical piece of information.

It just adds to the jigsaw puzzle when you're trying to put these things together.

Absolutely, we know in these cases internationally generally between fifty to ninety percent have leakage, and leakage is ultimately someone talking to another person where they express their intent to carry out an active harm.

So again, in a case like this, without jumping to conclusions, we need to think about what could the role of leakage been in something like this.

And that leakage could be what could be considered an idle threat, Oh, this person's going to get together one day, they're going to get what's coming to them, that type of thing.

But that leakage is what my interpretation of what you're saying there, that potential indicator this is an action they might actually carry out.

So you know, it might be something as simple as saying to a friend that you know, I'm going to go and make sure that I carry out justice and revenge for this cause.

What was the reaction over in New Zealand?

Because New Zealand then itself has been touched by massacres even on the larger scale than.

This, I think, like anywhere in the world, everyone's shocked and any type of tragedy like this courses people to stop and reflect, and you know, it's just it really makes us concerned around when people are carrying out such horrific targeted violence against members of the public.

We all like to feel safe in as though we can go about our daily lives, and when that is at threatened.

That's ultimately what we talk about with terrorism, is that it's that impeding on the public to try instill fear and often at the you know, the benefit of a cause that they're trying to progress, and you know, terrorism has a horrific impact on society simply because of the fear that it invokes in people.

The indications here is that this act was targeting the Jewish community, and there's been a lot of commentary in that on that issue in the media, but there is also the police commission that came out very strongly and I think appropriately this is not the time to panic.

This is not the time to know the whole world's going to end on this situation.

It is a horrendous situation and thousands of lives have been impacted on dramatically on what has occurred.

But do you think that's a strong message to put out that this is not the time to not a time to panic.

Look, I think that is really important to reassure people, to put it into context.

This is probably the sixteenth terrorist attack that we've had across Australia and New Zealand since twenty fourteen, and the initial one in twenty fourteen was Newman Hater when he's stabbed to counter terrorism police officers in Melbourne in September, and then a few months later we had the Link Cafe siege on December fifteenth.

So we've slowly been having a consistent number of attacks continue and this very much tragically is another one of those.

But it's also my view, probably representative of that shifting landscape that we are seeing that has several underlying issues around it which explain why we're seeing this rise in violence.

But it is important to put it into context.

So there is a continuation of these attacks, but do see that largely our countries are doing a great job at preventing this violence.

I had a fortune to speak to doctor Anne Burgess from the FBI that you're familiar with her work from mind Hunter days and profiling serial killers, and she indicated that the work now they're starting to look at profiling the type of people that might commit attacks like this.

Have you got any comments or thoughts on that is a trend in what we should look at in preventing crimes of this nature.

Yeah, look, the research so far said that it's really hard to get a profile on these folks because they are so broad and varied.

And then the moment that we think we have it worked out, it then flips and changes again.

So you know, back in twenty fourteen, this started off being all about Islamic inspired violence.

Then it shifted and it became around things like right wing extremism, and then shifted again, and then it became about ideologies more broadly that it was about grievances, And now we're seeing also the rise of sort of just violence for the sake of inflicting violence overseas as well.

So it constantly evolves.

In the moment that we think we have a profile, a new trend in, a new pattern emergers.

There are certain commonalities that we do see, particularly around the tendencies to develop grievances the team, and it is to become fixated people that are probably reasonably isolated and socially disconnected, or that they are failing to really failing to really connect socially with others.

They often can be quite isolated, and then we see also that they've got a personality structure where they tend to be folks that lack resilience, that struggle to adapt to setbacks and failures and become very rigid and stuck on that.

And then if we fuel that with contagious ideas or extreme content, then that can create a really volatile mix.

And then there's a lack of protective factors in the person's life, then that some of the obstacles are removed and positive social influencers are not able to guide them onto a different path.

And that's where violence can start to really become reinforced and become an option and a solution for them.

It's a complex situation.

I look back and reflect aka what have we seen in Sydney of recent times.

Well, for the past twelve months, most Sundays there was a protest of some form going on and it was people with polarizing views.

It's right wing, left wing.

There was protests the main streets of Sydney blocked off virtually every Sunday.

Is that the type of unrest in an environment that people like And we're surmising here because it's very early days.

People like the two perpetrators who were carried out.

This act could be fueled by that type of behavior or that type of situation occurring in the community.

Look, it definitely plays a part.

I probably term that is moral outrage in some ways and the sense that is injustice.

And when we add that with personality factors and the inability to have other positive things in your life to the point that that then becomes your sole preoccupation and it then becomes comes to define you, becomes fused into your identity.

This is who I am, this is what I stand for, And if I'm not getting the response that I want, then I have to go harder and louder and push things further.

And that's where we can end up in what we know is the last resort response, where ultimately they perceive that all other options have failed and violence is the last resort to either bring about change or try and accelerate their position and their cause.

Can you get to that point if someone has been identified as having radical ideology, can they be deradicalized?

Is that if law enforcement identify someone, is that person a risk for maternity or is there a way to people can be deradicalized in their beliefs.

Yeah, we tend to move away from deradicalization now and look at the mechanics that are underneath the violence or the factors that have led them to that, and the belief system is a huge part of that.

Deradicalization would argue that it's ultimately about changing that belief system, but we probably would take it a step back even more and go, well, how did that develop for that person in the first place?

So why this person and why now?

And we would look at, you know, what is it about them that's led them to developing this way of thinking.

And one of the big things that we find is that people perceive that they're under threat, that the way they want to live their life or their belief system is under threat, and when they try and look at ways to resolve it and they are ineffective, then they view that as a continuation of that threat.

And the less and less options and the less and less solutions that are available to resolve that threat, then violence becomes that possibility and that solution.

So, like we talked about the when we last work around the staircase, you know, gradually climb in the staircase and options narrow, and also like the bathtub, the more things that get thrown in and filling up that bathtub to the point that it can no longer contain the water and it tips over.

And ultimately the active violence comes about.

The work that you do, and we don't have to delve into that too deeply, but the work that you do with New Zealand, please, I see that it's a growing field that all law enforcement agencies, not just in New Zealand Australia, like across the world would benefit by having this sort of expertise that you can look at and help identify people.

Is that a simplistic view or something that you would share now, look at is important.

I think we are increasingly seeing the need for multi agency collaboration across these issues.

It's too much for police to hold on their own, it's too much for other agencies to hold on their own.

We need to be communityting all coming together and making sure we're sharing information and getting various expert opinions on the issue and on the person, because, as we know, if we siloed in this work, that creates huge problems.

If we have gaps in our knowledge or competence, that also creates big issues where we can miss something.

And then of course disconnects as well.

We've got disconnects between various agencies or standoffs or hierarchical issues that can also be really problematic.

So the more that we have a holistic and coherent practice between different fields and different agencies psychologists, psychiatrists, police, the better we can make more informed decisions around these matters.

It makes sense the multi agency approach.

The media.

The role of the media and media is coming for some criticism, and when you look at what the act of terrorism is about is creating, instilling things in the community and that, but they have a role, like the media have a role, And I was comforted by the way the media approached the story in the past or less than twenty four hours, providing the information, but also cautioning not to instill too much much fear and focusing on Okay, it's contained.

We're not looking because the initial reports and I'm getting text from friends and I'm sure everyone else was getting that type of Oh, apparently this is the first of it many attacks.

There's going to be bombs, there's going to be this, and it can just escalate.

So there is a role for the media to play in situations like this.

Is that fair to say.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, look, these attacks are intended to create fear and chaos and uncertainty, and the media can play a critical role in navigating that.

They can stoke that and add to add to the chaos and add to the fear by sensationalizing things, or can a source of information and understanding.

And in chaos, people want to be able to understand things.

They want the information, they want to know what that means for them as individuals.

So the media have a really important role to share that information and foster understanding.

I think it's also really important to make sure that we make it victim focused.

So one of the things that you know, I'd love to see is sharing the stories about the lives of the victims.

It's so crucial.

That's got to be the narrative that emerges out of these attacks.

Look, we'll get information on the perpetrators that will happen in time, but you know, there's been several lives that have been lost, and that's that's the core of this, and it's ultimately about them.

Nathan, I think that's such a valid, a valid thought process on the way the media should play the situation.

Then that the perpetrators shouldn't be the story shouldn't be about perpetrators, because I would imagine that I'm not a psychologists obviously, but I would imagine if they got put on a pedestal and got no variety in whatever form that might feel for vor acts, the perpetrators should be virtually forgotten and the focus on the victim.

So I understand what you're saying there.

Yeah, And of course the people that intervened as well, you know, they also had a critical role, So you know, I think recognizing that as well, and shifting the narrative to being about what we can take away from this rather than giving the traction and the time to the individuals.

Well, we're getting reports and that it will all come out due course, but some real acts of bravery and the way that people people responded to that, and it was a really powerful message from a community, Hey, we're not going to take this.

I think you mentioned the Link Cafe siege and it was almost I think eleven years to the day that that occurred, and I felt that was almost like Sydney as a community lost its innocence and it rocked us to the core.

And I remember being involved in that in the situation understanding the impact it had on the community.

We do get desensitized to things happening, but I also get the sense the nature of what's occurred at Bondai and the manner in which it occurred has rocked our sense of who we are and what our community is all about.

You would have experienced it with the christ Church massacre, and I think there was in excess of fifty people killed during that.

How long did it take the community to feel normal again and get over the troupe?

Well, I won't say get over the trauma, because when the situation like that, people never get over it.

But how long did it take the community to move on?

It was a really difficult thing to probably quantify.

I think for anyone that that that you know, they're on the ground, that are there happens, it can take years, if not a lifetime for some people, particularly if they've been directly involved in some way.

Broadly speaking, you know, we know from overseas and even with schools, you know, this shapes communities, This shapes lives, which is really unfortunate.

And again I think it's what can people hopefully make from that, and how can they know not that it define them over time, but that it does.

It just takes time for people to grieve and to take the care that they need to ensure that they're looking after their own well being, and in time, communities do heal.

But of course, you know, governments have a pretty important role to play in that by providing funding and support and resources.

So it's a whole effort.

It takes everyone to help people heal and move on from these events, but they do have a lasting impact, certainly in the short.

To moderate term.

Okay, well we might leave it here, Nathan, thank you for coming on at such short notice and talking about the subject.

I know both of us wish we weren't talking about, but you're insight and some of the points that you get across.

I think it will help people understand what actually has occurred here because it is a shock.

People are just this doesn't happen in our country.

Well, it has happened, and it's a wake up call to us all.

So just putting a little bit of context into what's happened, how it happens, why it happens, I think will be helpful.

So appreciate your time.

Thanks, Gary, I appreciate you having me on and look.

Hopefully the conversation can shed some light on what we know about the challenges that are before us in this landscape.

Thanks Nathan