The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

Detective see aside of life.

The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

That's what I did for a living.

I was a homicide detective.

I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys.

Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.

The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to.

Some of the content and language might be confronting.

That's because no one who comes in the contact with crime is left unchanged.

Join me now as I take you into this world.

I first crossed paths with today's guest, Adam Smith, in a maximum security prison.

We didn't get off to a good start.

He was warning other inmates there would be consequences if they were soon associating with me.

But we've moved past that tense first meeting.

Today we sat down and had a chat.

We talked about what took place in that prison, his life as a member of an outlaw motorcycle gang, and he's time in gold and supermax prison, which is a violent place where loyalties were based on gang affiliation and race, and how through the stroke of good luck and the foresight of some corrective services officers he managed to turn his life around.

I think Adam has an important message.

Let's have a listen to what he has to say.

Adam, thanks for coming on my catch killers that problem going.

When I walked into your prison dorm a year or so ago and there was twenty five maximum security prisoners there snarling at me, and I didn't think we'd be sitting down this time in a studio having a chat.

No, I wouldn't think so, because I would have thought that the time.

But you didn't realize this.

Yeah, well, yeah it was.

I got to say.

When I've walked in there, I thought, yeah, this isn't a good idea, probably not the smartest, smartest thing.

I wasn't sure if I was going to walk out of there.

Actually, I could imagine it would have been a little intimidating for econe from your background to there.

But yeah, well I didn't expect an ex high profile cop to be too popular in that environment.

Look, we probably should explain what I was doing there, because I think it's interesting.

I'd like to get your take on it, the thoughts from your perspective how it came about.

Corrective Services invited me into the prison to have a look at a new way they were doing a prison system, Macquarie Correctional Center, maximum security prison.

On paper, it seemed like a good idea.

I thought, Yeah, that's cool.

We'll go in and hang out with the inmates and find out what they think of this new system.

Probably didn't think it too much, and when we walked into your dorm unannounced, I thought I fucked up here because there was groups of prisoners just forming little groups, talking and making it very clear what they thought of me.

And I wasn't too popular in there.

I didn't want to sort of turn around and run out.

That wouldn't have been a good look, so I tried to play it cool and just hold my ground a little bit.

I spoke to some of the some of the prisoners in there, but I've got a sense it wasn't very well appreciated, and it was very clear what people wanted to do to me in looks and gestures.

So I made after a short discussion with a few of the inmates made a tactical retreat from there.

With my dignity intact, I didn't run out.

But you're in there.

You're in there at the time, what was going through your mind?

Because I know I just rocked up there unannounced and people recognize me pretty quickly.

Okay, So from my point of view, I knew it was a good thing.

There was an opportunity to show off the new model of correct need services, I guess, which has been a battle and it will be an ongoing battle because there's the hard line that that is still convinced that if you're a prisoner, you should just be locking a cell and that's it.

Is we going to remember that our country was built off the back of convicts.

There's always going to be a jail system.

But if we can have guys that go through whatever they go through in life.

On let's face that a lot of people go for a lot of stuff in life that leads them down these paths.

You know, if we can really abilitate these people, light myself and get them back out, and you'll probably find that most of them have something to prove and they're going to be a productive member of society.

Well, I think that's why corrective services want to be in there.

And I was trying to sell the position to you guys, and you were one of the inmates that were telling people not to not to talk to me.

That's right, and because you thought some heat would come down anyone that's seen associating with me.

But eventually we sort of got the message across that.

You know, if I go in there as the next cop, and I'm saying I reckon this works, carry it gives you guys a platform can explain what's going on.

Yeah, that's right.

So essentially what's happened in this new model of jail as it goes, there's people that people look up to in jail.

So there's a fair few of us essentially that were just babyshitters.

Now this was I guess for us to keep this model of jail.

We do this so that all the benefits that come along with having it.

So I did an education in there.

I come from probably the darkest space that you come from on Australian soil to go to a place where I shined.

How long how long had you done in prison or how long have you done in prison?

So just over six years in total.

So basically the I only ever did small amounts before this was a six year sentence.

So it was a six or the nine.

Okay, And we're going to talk about that now, how your life got got to that point.

But you went from extremes and I want to break it down the two prison experiences you had from gold and Supermax, which I've been in that prison as well, and I want to talk about that because that's that's a heavy, heavy scene there, and you've gone to Mcquarie Correctional Center.

But the fact is that Macquarie there's still maximum security prisoners.

Like, it's not all the soft people in prison.

There's some.

I recognized a lot of the faces and had dealings with some of the people in there.

That's right.

Yeah, So, like I said, so before I went there, there was never meant to be any gang members.

But that was that was off the table.

That story we'll get into as we go along.

I guess we'll start from when I come into classy this time, or start.

Let's let's wind it back a bit, because you weren't born in jail, I don't think, so, tell us about your childhood and your upbringing.

Yeah, Okay.

So I come from a very good family and a beautiful mom and dad, brothers, sister, extended family.

That's perfect, you know.

But unfortunately, when I was younger, I suffered through some traumatic situations that led me down a path, right, which had nothing to do with my family.

Now, just on that issue, because we spoke about that the other day when we're having a chat and you said, you don't want to go into details, but something that happened to you when you're a young teenager that's right on a school camp, and you just don't want to break break it down, but that had a profound effect on.

You, that's right.

That led me down a path that I really didn't know how to get out of in a sense, you know, but I did try, like throughout those younger years, you know, like and there were other things that were happening like around me that sort of you know, intensified what was happening with me from that experience, And there were so many times where I sort of tried to tell my mum, but I couldn't really bring myself to do it, you know, because I can't deal with that sort of thing, you know.

But anyway, that led me into a path that I was just started to get into trouble, you know.

Okay, so up until early childhood, you said, a good family.

What theyre did you grow up in?

Okay?

So I was at West Bimble until about six years old, and then we moved to the Hawksbury.

So I went to Pittown Primary School and then I signed up to go to Winsor High School.

I didn't really attend too much, but I used to go to music and sport and that's probably you had hit.

So you're a student on paper, but you didn't spend much time there.

Yeah.

Sorry, I did manage to I guess touch the hearts of some of the teachers, isn't that because so many people did.

Try for me.

I guess that's one of my regrets that throughout that time I did let so many people down, you know, because a lot of people did try for me.

You know.

Well, I think it says a bit about yourself the fact that you recognize the fact that, yeah, there were people trying to try to help you, and you didn't take up take up the office.

Yeah.

Yeah, How old were you when you first start going off the rails and getting into trouble and getting.

Up the ship.

I think it was immediately from that point on I really struggled with identity.

Yeah, from that point on, I started to get into a lot of trouble, you know, Like I think it was probably that age I got brought home.

By the police.

You know, what was that for the first time.

I think it was a stolen pushbike or something like that.

Actually, no, it was a stolen pushbike, and it was just a silly situation.

I didn't even steal the pushbike.

But I think this come back to where I come from, with a good nature that led me into a path and I tried to help at the time, and I ended up in the cop car getting taken ot you know.

And then I guess trying and explain that to your parents, but the cops brought your home, you know, and at that point I started to go off the rail.

So there was trust already gone, you know.

Okay, so first experience being brought brought home by the cops, there was still a point to turn your life around.

But you hanging out with the wrong crowd or what I get.

I guess there's always that, you know, But what ended up happening essentially because I was the wrong crowd.

Okay, well that's that's being honest.

Well, I mean not so much through that time frame, but definitely before I went to prison, there's only two ways that my life was going to end.

Then did you I tried to get a sceint at that age, did you did the thought of going to prison scare you?

Did you think that was just?

Or did you when when I went to prison.

Before, as you were a kid, like the consequences, because I'm sure cops would have said to you as they're bringing you home, you're going to end up in prison, You're going to throw your life away and all that.

Does that resonate with you when that said to you at that age when you're going on that path.

Not so much.

So I got very lucky.

I actually got sentenced to six months on the bottom from Windsor Courthouse and I ended up in the cells.

And when I was in the cells, there's all these boys from high school that come in the greens from Silver Order and this is my first real experience inside.

How old were you then, I'd say I would.

Have been eighteen.

I would have been just saden because I would have been on to prison, you know.

Yeah, And so one of them turned up.

One of them had a talio and is shoe.

The other one had a bit of tobacco.

I wanted a bit of flint one out of a thing, and I thought it was cool.

And I was off prison and I was, let's go, let's go to prison.

But then they come through and said, oh, your father's just post your bail and you're walking out, and I was like I was at the time.

I was a little disappointed.

I was like, I was young, formid of excursion.

You know, Okay, I've heard some stories here, but okay, a bit disappointed.

Thinking back, Maybe maybe I shouldn't have post the bail.

Maybe I should have done that six months.

I think that anyone going off the rails needs to experience what prison's like because it teaches it a lot as a character.

It's a hard call, isn't it.

Because there's one school of thought that, Okay, let's go hard ad them when they're youngsters and yeah, you've just turned eight.

In put them in prison and show them what life's really like.

Yeah.

And then there's the other school of thought that if you throw them in there, it just becomes a graduation for a career as a criminal.

And it does for lots lots of boys, you know.

Yeah, some of these connections that you're making there.

It's like my preference if you can keep young fellas and girls for that matter, out of prison, because I think if you're in there, it's sort of it's almost you carry that on your shoulder, the chip on your shoulder.

Will I would definitely agree.

In my circumstances back then, I think things may change for me.

Howd I gone to prison?

This wasn't anyone's fault.

This is just the way things look out.

No one could have predicted that that I could got bail at the last minute, or like I said, I come from a good family.

You know, what's my dad's in the post bail for me?

What sort of offense were you in for at that stage?

What was it?

I think it was a sault.

Yeah, So I've always had a problem with assaults, and like violence has been an issue for me, and it actually made me sick, you know, Like this was something that I dealt with when I was going through super Max.

Mainly you get consumed by violence, you know.

Well, you told me an interesting story the other other day that you met a blake when you were sixteen or whatever, started getting into the weights and the street fighting and learning boxing, and it almost became you were drawing attention to yourself and people were picking fights around you, knowing that you'd step in, and you went from one battle to another.

What was it?

What was the gay with that that guy?

What influence did he have have on you?

So at this point, there's so to say.

Let's just say at that point, maybe when I was fifteen, when we crossed bars, so I'd already gone for a lot, and I was already dealing with a lot.

But at this point I'd sort of managed through you through substance and things like that, and whereas none of this was an issue anymore, and I was just I was on the front foot run of the market.

Lot of banger in you.

Yeah, definitely a lot of anger in me and just not knowing how to direct it or deal with it, you know, And yeah, and it just it consumes you.

But my crossing paths.

I won't mention his name because he may not want to say mention, but he'll know who he is.

And a credit to him, he's doing very very well for himself.

Now.

He's got himself a massive business and he's really doing well, got a good family.

Before I crossed bars with him, he did an eight year sentence for armed robberies.

Old school.

This guy will stand up on his toes at any time, no matter what's in front of him, right, And I admired that because something that I taught myself was with what happened, was that I was going to build myself up.

No one was ever going to hurt me again.

And that's part of the reason I guess why I ended up going through the clubs and that too.

You know.

Interesting you say that, because I've seen a lot of blokes sit where you're sitting, not just since I've been out of the cops, when I was in the cops, that yeah, I'm not going to be a victim anymore.

I'm going to look out for myself and no one's going to fuck with me, basically, and that sort of gratitude that can lead down the path that ends up in the clubs.

And that's right, that's right, And.

It wasn't going to happen in that world or that world and the consequences that, like I said, was only going to end it either one or two ways for me at the time.

But I'm glad that whatever I've gone through now and I'm in a really good place now, you know.

And I'm in a place now that I can help others going through what I was going through.

You know, especially as far as going through gangs and that sort of stuff.

It sounds like you didn't have the skills to walk away from the violence or the prontation, and it was just the one thing you were good at.

Well, when you say skill, I don't think I had the emotional maturity.

It was just easier for me to go that way, you know.

Yeah, do you look look back at that time, and yeah, I think I wasted all these years.

So many people go walk around think I'm on this that no regrets.

Come on me.

I've got nothing but regrets.

But it's made me who I am now, and who I am now like I love this person and I've got people that love me, and that's all that matters now.

You know.

I got the sense that you're close with your family, and so you must look back at them and think, Jesus, I cause you guys some headaches over the years.

My mum will looks at this and have a laugh.

I torment her every day.

My Dad said, torment her like nothing else.

But yeah, you know, you can't take things back when you can't take them back, and if you're going to keep looking back, you're not going to go forward.

You know.

When I come home from jail, like, I'm fairly good with my words in situations like this, and when I'm standing in front of people talking, that's fine, and when it's coming from the heart, there's always giving to be something like that up, you know.

But I did say to Mum and Dad when I come home that I appreciate everything that you do for me, and I apologize for everything else, you know, But they knew it.

I mean, well, yeah, that's all you can do.

And I suppose the reward for them is if you're turning your life around now and yeah, it's okay.

We all grow up at different stages in life or will come to the realization and what the path we should be following.

So yeah, I'm sure they understood.

But I get the sense that they stayed with you the whole time, which is yeah, mate, So you're fortunate there because you would have seen a lot of blokes in prisons that didn't have that support.

That makes a lot harder doesn't.

It definitely, definitely.

You know, there's a lot of people in prison that they are using drugs or stuff like that.

The way they treat their families terrible.

You know.

Maccruarie did try to implement a strategy that would help rather than punish addicts, and which the fundamentals of it all was great, but there was just a few things in there that was a little bit I guess, of a violation to an inmate in the sense, like one of the things we was was if you got caught doing something, rather than coper charge or refine and we take you off everything and then and that just puts you out for a hustle.

Anyway, we can sit down with you and you can call your parents and tell your parents exactly what the money's been used for that they send you right now.

I guess the theory behind it is they think and they're helping people.

But for a lot of these guys, they've been written off by their families and very very right, so they probably stole them from them.

They probably who knows what they've done, But like any loving family, they're always going to try to keep a family together.

So as soon as you get this person it's an opportunity when he's vulnerable, when he's been charged and he's in jail, and he's down and out, and he's separated from whatever in the parent's eyes, drawing him away from him.

Most of the time, they'll choose to forgive that person that their child throughout that traumatic situation that they're going through, and that's for both of their hearts to try and heal.

But what happens then when someone gets that phone call.

You'd imagine the old man.

I don't know if he can swear on.

You, as in, fuck him the old man.

That's it.

Tell the country get fucked, We're done no more.

You get me, because we're at that point before.

This wasn't my situation with my family, but this is what happens with a lot of apes that are in jail.

Interesting take on it, because when you first mentioned I thought that makes sense.

It's making people accountable and all that.

But yeah, unless you're been inside, like you'll burn, you don't fully appreciate the impact.

But I can imagine imagine that there would have been people who lost their families.

That's right because of that.

So the punishment, but.

A credit to the jail for trying to help the old method of going frow and addikin segro.

Either let him out or you don't let him out, you set him off to another jail.

That some behavior is going to be repeated.

He's probably trying down in tech grow now Jason, like he just there's no no punishment.

He's going to fix someone who has an illness.

You know.

Well, there's a lot of a lot of stuff that I learned from the time in Macquarie, and we'll talk about that in depth.

But you've gone from extremes before before we put you in jail.

We're going to put you in the OMCGS.

So what attracted you to becoming a gang member?

Okay, So if we go back to with when I was younger and I was knocking around with that lad, I said, So he had a Harley anyway, So we went one training and we're doing some boxing and whatever we're doing.

We used to do a lot of boxing and weights and the middle of summer and he goes, let's go for a ride.

Made So we got in the middle of when he just pulls up.

He's a big boy too, He's just pulled up and basically picked me up.

And put me on the seat and jump on the back and said, now right it was And I loved partly He's like I had motibikes, but this was massive for me, you know.

And that was my first ride anyways, so that sent me on my path then.

I think I was probably twelve months later I had a bike, so Dad helped me out with that.

I actually bought it off one of my mates.

Was a beautiful bike.

For the first bike at that age.

There was a custom soft tail.

They come with a front cover of lived the ride sent and fold the whole lot.

You know, you're on the on the not me.

Yeah, with the girl on it and that, you know, and it's just like say, three young fellow then.

And I was very fit and training and that say used to ride around him, put your shorts and a single it and he gave.

You you know what I mean?

And yeah, I do know what you mean.

I know I didn't have any intentions of going into it, but.

I see how that can be intoxicating for a young bloke.

You're trying to find your way in the path.

You found the brotherhood and if you're in the bikes and the excitement have been on the big Harley.

Well, i'd say I was in two different clubs, both of them over a long long period.

Are you're right to mention the name of the clubs?

Yeah, Like I I was in Lone Wolf and then I went to the things now Lone Wolf.

There was close connection there with our family in a sense.

Now, my family's not associated with O mcg whatsoever, So I just want to make that clear.

Okay.

Across the road from home was like a horse adjistment place, and mum and dad a very good friends with the people that ran it.

Where was this that in the.

Now?

One of the workers at the place there his step daughter, so she was like my first little girl friend.

You know, we were very young on that, but her dad was a thirty year life member of Lone Wolf.

So there was a close connection there.

And then I also had through some very close friends like my son's godmother and then extended family from there, we're in Lone Wolf as well.

You know.

Okay, so there was an association.

So that's how that connection happened.

Yeah.

I got a lot of.

Respect for a lot of guys in that club.

That's a very old school sort of club.

I think it's changed a lot now I don't know much about it anymore.

So it's been many, many years for me since I was in that club.

I have a lot of respect for some of the old guys at it in that club, and always will.

I had a lot of fun in that club.

Did you become a patch member?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely yeah yeah.

So I started at Mount Druert and then we split and we started the branch out and then we opened up at a new planes and just teens, escalators, a pretty will ride you basically.

But you know, that world got caught up.

I had a few fallings out, not with the club itself, but internally anyway.

That ended up with my departure from the club.

There's a lot of things that changed over the years with White Club, you know.

I saw it from a policing point of view.

You talk the old school bikies and things that wouldn't go down in the old days go down now as gaceful.

You know.

Yeah, it has changed.

I heard a lot of old timers wings about change from what we set it up for, and from a police point of view, I'm just going to say it looked like it was more contained, like it didn't spill out into the public.

It wasn't.

Yeah, they certainly got around in their colors when they were about, but they caused problems with it was internal or with another gang, and it didn't branch out as much as it seems to these days.

That's right.

So now you've got and now when you've got things like Raptor and that sort of thing, you know, everyone's out there game, you know, and it's just it's not a world I want to be a social with.

You know, how long did you stay with the Lone Wolves for.

About seven years?

I think about seven years.

Probably, Okay, so you're in the in the think of it.

Yeah, Like there's a lot of good guys there, and I think a lot of guys have moved on to you know, but there are still a lot of guys there that and they're decent guys too, you know, like a lot of them are hardworking guys.

I mean, there's obviously there's all elements in.

And look, I think people when they're listening to this and we're talking about outlaw motorcycle gangs, they call themselves out little motorcycle gangs for a reason.

Yeah, but I think what we're what you're saying here, if I'm interpreting it correctly, is that just because they're in the gang doesn't make them inherently a bad person.

That's right.

They work, they look after their family.

Yeah, they get up to ship, but not all.

Of them, not everyone.

But that's it.

But you should have said not everyone before that.

Not you know what I mean, because not like I'm talking about, there are some decent I was into that just love to ride, love bike, love the brotherhood, and and.

You find that more of the old school sort of clubs.

I think these days, these days, with the law the way things are, I think there's a lot.

I think it's more about you know, what you.

Can do earning a dollar and not not getting caught caught by the cops.

Well yeah, but like because you think about it, like it's a big to go out and become a biking now with the knowledge of what is in front of her.

I get it.

If someone's been a boy, it's very hard to walk away, but they go out and do it now you've either got one thing on your mind or in it you had read well you know what I mean.

Because I got to say and yeah, I reckon there'd be a tough gig.

Now with the way that crime has investigating, the advantages of the cops have got over say so many things.

It's not like the old days.

If you're in the club and just everyone's staunched, no one's going to get caught, That's right.

It seems to change, you know.

And if you're going to be a club member now you've got to expect rat to come through the door with machine gun on them.

Your kids are going to be exposed to it.

My kids are exposed so that I can't take that back.

Yeah, Well, the raptor came in at a time when it was it was getting out of hand, and reference it to the airport situation, and that was a bit of I was in gang squad at the time, so I know what was going down, and it was just a cross the line.

And deservingly is what those guys did with me, apart from I don't appreciate what happened with my kids, but I was out of control, you know.

Like I said, it was only going to end one way.

It's one of two ways, and the problem with that is the possibility for colutteral damage along the ways.

Massive and I'm just grateful that I didn't.

Get to that, you know.

Okay, okay, how did it go that you touched on it with the Lone Wolves that you're just it was an internal thing and you decided to leave.

Yeah, and then you went Which gang did you go to?

Then?

So I stayed out for a lots.

I had no intention of going back.

All right, So you left Lone Wolves and thought I'm out of this life.

Yeah, and I really tried.

Were you're working or yeah?

Yeah, what we're doing?

So, like I'm a glazier by trade and stonemason by trade as well.

I've always worked.

I mean, there was a time just before I went to jail where I was running.

On you picked too hard trades there.

Yeah, I've got a couple of mates of the stone Masons.

Yeah.

It's hard, hard yacker, isn't it.

Yeah?

Well I was very good at it, you know, I wouldn't like.

The only way I go back to it is to build my own place or something.

So at that time, though I was working where it was I working.

I was working for BDM Constructions, which is a construction company at Port mccruorie, but I was doing their banks down here in Sydney.

So the bank refurbs and that, so I do all the aluminium glass so you can work and all that.

And I was working there and I got a I got a message from one of the boys at the time was a thin but we grew up together and back when I was in the Wolf at that time, he was a rebel.

And then we both moved on, and I thought we'd both moved on anyway, he sent me a photo of him in a set of things colors, but that still didn't get me at that point, you know.

I mean I was obviously thinking about it, you know.

And then just over time I ended up going and joining with him, and I started as vice president straight away, like when I went there, you know, right, and then yeah, I.

Just were you with a lady at the time or may married?

Yeah?

This and this this is.

The heartbreaking part, you know, because I lost all that so like I didn't, like, I've still got the kids and we've got a great relationship.

But I was with my wife at the time, Sky all together for twenty five years, married for fourteen or fifteen, and then obviously that's done now, you know.

But how long were you in the Thinks for probably about eight years maybe the and like, I'm just trying to remember when I actually left, like when I was in jail, you know, because that's when I said that's it.

Well, you know, well you're fully committed because you've got it tatooed on the side of your side of your head.

Yeah, my whole heads all covered, mate, you know.

But yeah, you were committed and that that was the lifestyle.

Did you think at that stage when you got wife and kids, you've been there, you've done that, you came away from it, you're working earning for a living, you got the ships with yourself that you fell back into that lifestyle.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was just the attraction, the bottom of being a citizen what threw you back into.

Mate, in the club, it's just hard to like, it's hard just when you've been there.

And I've never been one to go and sit on a fence, you know.

I mean, like if I go there, I'll go there, you know, and you fully commit.

Yeah, you know, And that's where I was at before I went to jail.

You know.

It's hard for me to comprehend the two different places that my.

Head was who you were then to who you are now?

Yeah, and now and then when I think back, and this is something that I come to realize when I was in the Zupermax.

Because I didn't even like myself and who I had to become to do what I was doing.

Then you know, I didn't like that person.

Who's going to like me?

So?

What was the what was the crime that got you the six years?

What happened there?

I think in the paper, the.

Papers, the papers have had a good crack them.

They well, yeah, okay, this is I've only pulled out pulled out an extract of it.

But one of the country's most soon you think bikes, who has a club's name tattooed on the side of his skull, is behind bars and kidnapping, weapons and drug charges.

And the thirty nine year old was charged with a string of offenses including kidnapping in company, causing reckless grievous bodily harm, intimidating a witness, and dealing drugs.

That is that what you went down for?

Not really yep, they make them.

They throw whatever they can throw into so they've taken the tain.

Wasn't even wasn't even take in detain And I wasn't even there right say, what happened?

And it got downgraded to it got down and graded to intimidation.

Okay, so what what was what was the game with it?

So this was this was a new member that had come in and done some wrong stuff whatever, and I said to the boys go and get him bringing back the club house.

What position were you in at the time in the in the club, I was a national national president.

Yeah, yeah, so there was five of us at the time that was that that had that ranking tiation.

Yeah, but I also still had a club outse at portball Quarrie, and I was trying I was trying to train a few peckle up to like like I think I've referred to being a babysitter at different times.

Well, I was that term in the club at different times, you.

Know, through the finishing school for biking.

And so you can imagine this is a legacy.

So when I went so just to give the viewers and that an understanding, I went from Windsor where I was a vice president, and then I went to Port McCrorie on my own and set up as I think now that's a known bandido team.

I was going to say that band I've had some dealings with the bandidos up there.

Yeah, yeah, and throughout that there, and we built we built there, so you could imagine.

Pretty small town for.

You know what I mean, and for me when I went there and I made it known I was there, yeah, you know, but I wasn't disrespectful about it, not until not until other things were disrespected.

But we always maintained a decent level of a relationship, you know.

But yeah, so that drew up there and then obviously for me to try and get someone to take take it over, yeah, it just didn't happen.

So I was mate, I left myself short.

I was running around all over the place.

This is where you know, this is why I don't have a wife anymore.

You know.

She It's always hard when you're talking about your personal life, but just to put in perspective, you've been together for what twenty five years, did you say?

Yeah?

And she was a beautiful life mate, So she was.

Rock solid relationship.

And the chaos that was coming from you and your role in the FINX yeah, just enough is enough?

Yeah, pretty much, you know, and like and the things that come along with it.

You know, she was very good to me, you know, like it was a big mistake, big mistake.

On my behalt on behalf.

But what happens is sometimes things go too far.

You can't you can't go back to it, you know.

But I'll always love it and always be there for you know.

So with the I'm only going off the what was reported in the media that raptor rated your home and there was something that was posted on TV about that made made the news, and these articles flowed on what did you end up going down?

That's right?

Sorry, yeah, So so basically my charges were GBH with intent.

And that's on the fellow member of the club.

Well, this was a difference.

This was a different thing altogether.

It was a club related thing.

All of it was basically related, you know.

So I copped the GBH with intent and I copped that take and detained, but they dropped it down to intimidation.

I got done with a certain amount of drugs.

And without giving the chips on how bikes should avoid avoid the cops.

But yeah, you put yourself in a gang, so yeah, you're associated with that person.

That person, it's not not hard to follow the follow the path.

And I think and I've heard a lot of guys in your position that they've been brought down by association.

But again, I suppose that's a price you pay.

Definitely, definitely, you know.

I mean but even like even a lot of think guys are really good guys, you know, yeah, and there is a massive part of them that have families and work too, And it's like and sometimes you can't control the way things move.

You might start with a chap there and it might be like this, but over time it winds up ends up here and wearing the colors like it just happens, you know, But and it's hard to sort.

Of it's hard to sort of separated.

I guess, like, well, is it is it fair to say that's the risk your take when you when you join again?

Seeing that Okay, well it's basically, yeah, we're in this together.

I've got your back.

Yeah, and you could have some drop kick that's caused problems, but you've got to back back him up because he's a gang member.

That type of situation.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, I can give you an example of where you can find I guess the people that make the experience bad.

Because when I went to jail, all the rubbish that I had to put up with from internal that was from us in there was just disgusting, you know.

Okay, so that's because you you've gone in as a member.

Yeah, another member has done it inside.

Well that that comes down on you too.

One hundred.

Like when I first got to jail, like we were involved in a war, like and we're at Goldwen, this is not this is before they've I think they've changed it now to a protection jail, you know.

Yeah, it's a fight for survival.

Golvin always had the reputation of folks that have been in there, and I saw it from the outside as a tough prison.

So that the rest we're talking about that you've got your six years that was yeah, is that when raptor got you?

And the kids are saying it, How old were the kids at the time.

And well, probably about eleven and twelve, aren't.

Yeah, that's too young, you know.

Yeah, but they're doing very well.

Like my son is an absolute champion.

My daughter she's gorgeous.

Like my son's working.

She had a great job.

My daughter she's about to go to UNI.

She had a great job as well.

Like I couldn't be happier, you know, like as far as that goes, But you know, I'm just so happy to be back in their lives and yeah.

Well that's and you know, we'll talk about what prison is and what the punishment is, but yeah, that's one thing that you've taken away from your family and that's that's where Yeah, I know when I spent time in Macquarie, that was the thing that most people were saying.

Punishment is we're being taken away from our family now not winging, you know, yeah, I think you've owned the fact that you're out of control and end up getting sentenced.

But yeah, it's that impact that has on your family that can carry pretty heavy on the shoulders.

I think it's more that way than the other.

So when you when you got arrested, take it.

You didn't get bail.

So basically when I got arrested, I went straight into the holding cells at Port Macquarie.

And I guess there was.

Like with the we detect you for the thing that was I guess there was like a respect leable there or some sort, because they never come I mean you can and you could reference this too.

They never even come up and offered me a dealers because they knew the situation.

You know.

Yeah, I was hard at the.

Time and it was just the road straight out of Fort Marcory Police Station.

Probably couldn't have happened any quicker, you know what I mean, So they didn't wuck around with me.

And I went from there to Newcastle Holding Cells.

I don't know how long I was there for it sort of underground to lose concept at the time, and then I went through Silk Water and I had to go through and basically get processed.

And I was there for about two weeks in the segro with other think boys and other club members that were along the roads in the segregation, you know, and then I headed to mccorie, I mean to Goldwyn, but at the time I knew so there was one of the boys there that was trying to cause big dramas and on knew there was an issue straight away.

So when you hit the yard, it was already on.

Yeah, So it's like a necessary you know.

I don't know how to explain it for viewers to understand, but anyway, jail politics are very.

Is it fair to say that you've got to align yourself with your crew?

Okay, you have gone in there a think was that was your crew?

And it's also there's a race divide to that that comes into play as well.

Yeah, but that was already in place.

And the worst part about the race the vide was we had this race with us too.

That gets complicated, isn't the lines.

Of blurred then around this race.

It's just like it was just so wrong.

But we did sort it out right, and through the means of sorting it out in a gle environment.

I'm gonna try and word this so that doesn't come across one.

Yeah.

Wrong, but you're in it's a jungle, and it's a very very volatile area, right, and to resolve things sometimes you have to elevate things strategically, if that makes sense.

I don't really know how else to explain it.

I don't want you to give away anything that happened in prison, but my take on it from what you're saying, is that if something gets someone gets disrespected, you're going to get respect back, and so you might escalate it.

In some if someone was punched in the yard, well it might be retribution might be heavier than the punch coming back.

Yeah it was.

Yeah, Well, so let's just say that that whatever that incident was landed me in the supermax all right.

Now the next now it's nothing there's nothing to be locked in for five days at Alburn, get let out in the yard for two minutes, someone gets stabbed in your back inside for another six days.

Yeah, that's just the way it works, being part of whatever you've heard of it.

You can still break the cycle to get and locked in by choosing to go to work.

Well, I went to work this day and they just came down and gabb me and took me up in the cells.

And the governor, who was bolder at the time, come through and just basically said, I'm throwing you in the supermacs and you're going to spend the rest of your jail on the supermacs.

And I didn't even give me a chance to explame why.

And that's from an incident happened in the yard.

But I was being hard done by so I a t at the time.

Which are the squad the guys that are running around trying to resolve what Some of these guys had a level of respect for me.

It's a crazy little world.

Yeah.

One of them that walked me down, he was one of the heads of the squad.

He walking down.

There's a few of them that walking down to the supermacs.

So the super making.

It's a it's a secure jail inside of jail.

I've been there.

Describe it because the first time I went there, I just yeah, literally, how you described the jail within the jail, Just explain what happens.

Well, the Hollywood movie wouldn't break you out of there, Yeah, you know, but anyway, and you get lost.

It's just what I'd described from my memory of it, and you'll have a more detailed memory.

But the circular buildings, the pod you walk, you go through the security, you're getting the Golden Prison, then you go through the security to get into super Max, and then you're in super Max, and that from my memory, it was circular, and you're walking around and the perspect screens.

I remember seeing Ivan Malatt strutting his stuff and patrolling like a caged animal, just staring at things, going back, the terrorists, gang members, all sorts of people.

Yeah, so sort of that's graduation school from prison, isn't it.

The rest of the prison system doesn't handle you, and then you end up in super Max.

Yeah, tell us about the day to day life in there, because one thing that just sort of dulled your senses.

It was so repetitive and so boring.

That's the sense that I got that everyone was just going stir crazy.

I believe that things that changed slightly there.

Now when I was there, they wouldn't let the official visitor down there.

I think the official visitor can go down there, and I think I think they've really cleaned it up.

When you say official visitor, that's some independent person coming into have a look, that's.

Right, and speak to the inmates.

You get so the inmates then express their concern that.

Was that was a safeguard the ship wasn't going down.

But yeah, they weren't.

Yeah, So I'll just give you an example when I got when I went in there, so when I was at the top, they stripped me down naked, and they came and gave me a pair of underpants, a pair of track pants, a pair of socks, a shirt, and a jumper.

I didn't even have shoes, so I had so I would go into the supermax and I'm like, when you go to any jail, you get issued greens.

You get issued your clothes if you don't have them in your property because you bought them or whatever.

I go in there and I expect to get more greens.

Anyways, nothing comes.

I'll give them one blanket, a sheet.

I had no pillow and one tower.

The room was moldy.

I was in Unit seven, just really dirty, old dinger.

You wouldn't put your dog in there.

And I kept asking for an explanation while was there, because I was there without charge.

No charge is nothing, not even an explanation.

I didn't get one for three months.

You lose all concept at the time, from the first point when I got in now I was looking for fourteen days without to open it in a back cage, just to get a bit of air.

No book, no pen, no paper, no books, nothing at that point, if I had something to kill myself with, I probably would have because I didn't know what was going on.

They wouldn't tell me while I was there.

They wouldn't give me anything.

When I go for a phone call, five of them come in and make me get at the back.

I'd have to put my legs behind me, back, my hands beyond my head.

They cuffed me and dragged me out to the phone, cuffed me to the phone, let me make the call, and then hang up with me and drave me back in.

You know, just trying to break it, you know, and at this point I was breaking because I didn't know what was going on there.

It was either.

Like, honestly, the only way I was thinking about trying to hurt someone real bad, you know, That's how I was thinking.

I don't know how I'm going to get out of this situation.

Even when they keep your sports time, they push out a concrete yard.

This is for a reason, mind you, It's there for a reason.

This, you know.

Like and although I was in for my crimes and everything that I was in there, I don't I believe that at this point here, I wasn't treated fairly at the time what I was trying to do at the top of the jails, like say, any jail only runs through through certain inmates control actions, right, I was doing most of the opposite up the top.

Knew what I was doing.

I was doing for a reason, but I believed, but none of them would step up for it.

Right that bold Dart, the government that put me on he went on and leave after he put me in there.

No one, this is what I found out later, No one was willing to sign me off on having me released.

Because I'm against the bosses.

Well, the order come from above to tell him to do something about what was going on with the walls at.

The place because it was known as the graveyard Golden Prison.

May I give you an example.

You get there, if you're a normal inmate, then you're aligned with anyone and you get there, they're probably already got there and they got a blade.

All right, Now I'm going out into that yard.

I'd never take a knife or a fight.

I'll hold my hands up any day of the week.

I need a knife to do it.

But what am I going to do when someone's got one.

I'm not talking a knife Golden's fall, but they're walking around with samurai swords, you know what I mean.

One of the first ones I peeled off was from a big lump of steel that had rusted.

And it was like that night when I went back and I was thinking about what happened to forty five actually end up using someone to stay in jail forever.

So I had to get rid of that and just try and find something that I could have to protect myself in some other means.

Now, like I said, I don't carry knives, you know what I mean?

But what do you do when there's a fair changing to get stabbed in the yard that day if if you don't, if you got one that said deterrent for that person to stay away from me.

You know.

Now you should hear the sounds hitting the floor whenever the squad run into the yard in Gulben.

It's like someone frow and change on the ground.

It's all the lights hitting the floor, you know what I mean.

People got magazines around their stomachs.

You know what I mean.

Like it's just it's a jungleman, you know, and it's a fight for survival every day.

But we're human beings, so we either it's the fight or flight.

We're either at dat.

I used to spend our grandfathers will be rolling over in their graves watching us conduct ourselves in prison.

Now you know what I mean.

Like there's a few that will stand up for themselves and for us this whereas all the other races I support each other.

You know.

I used to spend day, like every day trying to convince some young feller just you're not involved in anything that's going on in you.

If you have any issues, come and see if but stay away like and then I'd tell them walk out of the visits, to go under the walk of shame.

Back to the boneyard and what you're doing.

They use it too much, you know, and.

It's like, but what they don't realize Boniard's not going to keep you safe.

So this when you say boneyard, explained that, I know what you mean, but explain that to pedophiles.

Okay, in the protection within the prison from the regular.

Or dogs who have rolled on people.

You know.

Now you've got these kids going into a place with rapists and that are they're going to get raped in there.

I understand you're in a place that you're not comfortable in, but you're not going to get I'll give you.

I gave you my word, and other boys in the yard look after you.

Just don't get involved in drugs, right easy?

No, who knows what app until them.

Now you know, I've heard stories, you know what I mean.

When they've gone in there, they're marked forever, and that's right.

Someone will eventually get to them.

And then when they come back to the prison, that's where they're going back to there because I've already been there.

Yeah.

Yeah, they can't can't walk away from that.

Yeah.

So with super max, were you're allowed to associate with other other prisoners.

Or so they run it on a level system, so I'm not know if that's how they still do it, but that's how they were doing it.

So it goes from not three to three and you go through the processes all the way on the steps, and that's when you start to get stuff.

So obviously I.

Don't even think I'm I don't even think I hit the board because I had nothing.

I did have a thing, you know, but you know I did humble me to see some of the other guys in there.

There's one door there in particular.

I won't meant you mentioned his name, but he's happy to choose to have nothing.

If they want to feel like they can say bullying through certain means, he'll he'll he'll be happy just to.

Not have any not even a meal, you get me.

And that's his way, that's his way of fighting back.

And at one point there when I was there, the big boss come down the scene and caught him a stubborn prick and give him his way for it.

All right, Yeah, you know, so different ways of fighting fighting this.

Yes, how do you stay sane in that environment?

You don't how long.

Were you in super max?

For four months?

And what's it what's it doing to your head?

You talk that you got to the point where you wanted to hurt someone or even hurt yourself.

Yeah, finish your life.

I paint a picture I don't like.

I don't I don't sleep properly, like I suffer from night terrors.

But these days they go because I just wake up.

You know.

When I was in the Supermax, I was this night terror, utter night terror.

It could be who knows what time.

You don't know.

You've got no window, you don't know what time it is.

There's a little strip out on the side of the thing, and if you're laying in your bed, you can't see it anyway.

Now, one night, whether it was night or not, I had this dream, Like I said, I don't dream unless they're wrong, you know, And it was so surreal.

I was in the shower at mum and Dad's old house, having a shower, and I was so grateful that I was back home.

I was kind lay in my bed.

I was going to go and give me Mama hug.

I was going to see me kids, and everything was great.

And I remember waking up and looking at this dirty wall and then looking around.

I didn't even know what time it was and it was like it like, this is my life.

Who knows what's happening with my life?

Like I I hadn't been a sentence to anything at this point, you know, and I was still diging, trying to create stuff, so you could imagine what's going on up here.

Not so much paranoid, you're just creating stories.

Yeah, you know, if it wasn't for the support of the boys down there, that have could that have been through it?

You know, over time and you can yell out to each other, and it's a massive community going on down there, you know, people yelling out to.

Each other like and you know, and that's support.

I think without that, I think most of the boys would break down there.

So what what year are we talking that you're in in supermax twenty eighteen?

Okay, yeah, all right, so that's when they so they did so they built the new MPU, which is the segregation unit at Gulben, and they had forty beds.

There were sixty of us in the super max, so twenty of us had to go around the state.

I landed at Quarie just in segregation and that was it.

So all right, Well, I think we might might take a break here.

Yeah, when we get back, we'll get you out of the super max.

Yeah, you didn't escape from supermax.

I don't think has anyone escaped from SUPERMX?

No, mate, I don't think anyone ever will.

I know they said that about Engle and Russell Cox managed to get his way out.

Legendary.

That is legendary.

I appreciate your openness about it, giving us an insight into what it's like in prison.

We'll call the traditional prisons and as in gouldin the old school prisons.

When we get back for part two, we're going to talk about your experiences in the Macquarie Correctional Center, and I think it's good to get a sense of what it's like in the traditional prison.

And then we'll take you into the other prison and talk about how you managed to turn your life around and what inspired you to turn your life around, and we might even delve into summer your artwork that you're brought in, which is quite impressive.

You get to the good.

Stuff, Okay, good say we better get people.

Make sure you listen to part two, because we turn this flake's life around, or he turns.

His life around.

Definitely stuff, Okay, good stuff, we'll be back soon.

Thanks nine