The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

That's what I did for a living.

I was a homicide detective.

I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys.

Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.

The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to.

Some of the content and language might be confronting.

That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

Join me now as I take you into this world.

Welcome to a bonus follow up episode of I Catch Killers.

Back in twenty twenty three, our guest Geraldine Kane reached out to me to discuss the murder investigation of a sister, Liesel Smith.

Lisel Smith was just twenty three years old when she vanished from the central coast of New South Wales in twenty twelve.

The police believed that she had been murdered and that they knew who was responsible police were in the process of getting answers for Liesl's family.

They had charged her partner, James Scott Church, with a murder, and after a lengthy judge only trill that sat for over sixty eight days, Justice Elizabeth Fulton indicated she would hand down her verdict on the eighth of July twenty twenty two.

Geraldine and the family had waited ten years for this moment, but the day they had been waiting for was taken away from them when James Church took his own life the day before the verdict was due to be handed down.

Geraldine was informed, due to this the rigid legal system that seems to lack any compassion, that the verdict could not be made available to the public.

That just added to the trauma of the family.

I always believed that if the law was broken or failed the people is there to serve, it should be changed.

After meeting with Geraldine, I suggested that the simplest way the hurdle could be overcome was for the matter to be referred to the coroner and the coroner could deliver a finding.

This was without precedent, but to me it seemed to be a simple fix on the back of those discussions, Geraldine appeared on I Catch Killers and lobbied in the media and with the law makers to see if this could be achieved.

It makes me very happy to announce that Geraldine's efforts were rewarded.

And on the twenty ninth of September this year, Deputy State Coroner Harriet Graham found that Liesel Smith was killed by a partner, James Scott Church.

So I thought they'd get Geraldine back on the podcast to discuss the process and the impact that it's had on her.

Geraldine Kane, Welcome back to I Catch Killers.

Thanks Gary, Thanksgarving me.

Well, it's good to have you back here.

But the circumstances that we'd probably we all be happier if I wasn't speaking to you, But there's been Yeah, it is what it is, isn't it.

There's been some developments on Lisel's case.

Now I've explained to the audience about the background to the situation, and can you just tell us in your words what's occurred since we last had you on the podcast and spoke to you at the coroner's court I think was the last time I saw you.

Yeah, So Coroner's finished and she went to basically think over what had been presented to her, and she was also taking some leave that had been pre planned a while before, and then gave us a date that it was on the date of my birthday.

Actually that she presented her findings, and basically she found that Jim Church had killed Lisel, he was responsible for her death, and that if Lisel's remains were ever found that she would reopen the case because the manner of death could not be ascertained, obviously, but she accepted the evidence that had been put before her, and she also mentioned to the ag there'd been a review I think it was twenty twenty three, and a certain number of recommendations have not been implemented, one of which was recommendation thirty four.

My understanding is that the coroner should not have to name a person as having done an action that has caused the death of another.

I might be wrong.

It's all very much legal jargon and everything.

But she was not impressive.

None of the recommendations have been implemented from that review, and she also referred basically not our case, but more the circumstances in terms of the issue of abatement, which has been the biggest hurdle in terms of not getting a verdict, has asked the AG to refer that to the new South Wales Legal Commission four of you to see whether there can be any sort of changes to the law on specific circumstances such as what happened with Lisal, which is what she can do.

Yeah, I've been through the findings of the coroner and there's some significant things in there, and from a personal point of view for yourself and your family, calling that limbo situation of sitting through I think it was over or sixty eight days hearing of a trial for the person that was charged with murdering Lisel and then have that person kill themselves on the virtual day that the judge only it was a judge only trial was going to hand down the verdict.

How distressing that would have been for the family because you battled.

It was a ten year battle to get it to that point basically, and then you're left in limbo with no one being accountable for what's happened to your sister.

Yeah, it was interesting because the detectives involved in the coastal had different points of view as well, but the current actually found that quite helpful.

She said, because it shows the amount of consideration that or the variance of perspectives that is raised with term of abatement and how that would apply.

What I found really interesting was that not one family member from the defendant, none of his friends, nobody turned up to defend him or to say no, the evidence you've presented his role and they had the opportunity to do so.

A nata kind you know, if everyone's saying, oh, he didn't.

Do it, where were they?

And also on the thing and when we first met, and this was the thing that I could tell was your frustration, but that it was mine having a bit more of an understanding about the legal system and about what it takes to convict someone of murder or at least have a murder trial.

All the evidence had been presented, any defense opportunity that was available to him, it could have been taken during the trial, if I could understand, it would be a completely different situation if he had no opportunity to defend himself.

But the system was set up to allow him to defend himself.

Yeah, he had every availability to participate how he wanted to.

And then when we talk the abatement, I think we're talking in legal terminology, we're talking about whether a decision can be made in the absence of the accused person when the person's passed away.

So that's my understanding.

Yeah, and I think the coroner will touch on a little bit later in the recommendations that the coroner has made.

But looking for legislation to be changed because clearly a legal system should be there to serve the people that represents and if justice is not done because of some antiquated legal principle, maybe that's when changes should be done.

I'm look, I'm happy for you, and happy is a funny word put when you're talking about the murder of your sister, But I'm happy at least someone has been identified as been responsible for the murder of Lisel.

I think it just confirmed, especially after listening to all the relevant evidence that was presented in coroners, because obviously there's different ways that the courts are run, criminal versus coroners.

It just really cemented what I've come to.

The conclusion I come to during the criminal court was that you know, he did it, you know, and I have to commend the women that were his intimate partners that had been abused, you know, quite extensively by Church, who submitted after David's in support of the criminal child.

It was never presented basically because.

The DPP at the time felt that they had enough evidence, which is fine, but because it was relevant in criminal court as sorry in Coronis court, they looked at that he was still perpetrating domestic violence, or rather violence against women, because there's nothing domestic against about it against the partner that he had when he died.

So you know, I just I take my hat off to these women that, even under fear and you know, fear of their life from him and the abuseit he perpetrated against them, stepped up and provided evidence to show that he had a.

History of it.

He certainly had motive, and he had an extensive history of violence against women and animals as well, which you know, a huge red flags.

So look, the thing for me is that he can't appeal it.

He can't say you didn't do it.

It confirms what majority of us believed, even though we don't have a verdict.

And I really hope that the age takes on board what the Coron has said and refers, you know, refers to as she's recommended, and you know, stops another family from having to do this.

It's just, you know, it's not that it's not fair, but there was no need for it.

I don't think, And I think if it can be prevented in the future, as I said, you know, specifics with legislation and stuff, then it should be you know, people shouldn't be forced to go through this just because, as you said, there's an antiquate, hated yeah law or reasoning that you know, that's because it's always been the way.

Well that's not good enough never, you know, nor should it be.

And that was the frustration that was coming across with you when you're explaining the situation to me when we first met that you've constantly been told, well, this is what we do.

But the situation that presented yourself in this particular case is a unique set of circumstances.

It's not going to happen very often, but it potentially could happen.

And by changing the legisla that it's not going to open the floodgates.

The world's not going to change.

It will just stop families like your family going through what you've gone through before.

And that's interesting when all the evidence is presented at a coroner's inquest because it's an inquisitorial so the rules of evidence differ from the adversarial system that the criminal core is.

But it just adds to the weight of evidence against him.

I think it certainly supported the case that the DPP had.

It showed that, you know, as I said, there was history and everything.

I think the other thing in getting the law change is that it acts as at a turrent.

If people that are considering doing the same thing know that, well, you can do that, but this is what's going to happen regardless.

Then you can either take the chance what's what gets said an appeal and you know, try and do it that way, or you just get named and that's it and you don't have any chance of running an appeal.

Then yeah, I honestly think it will, you know, act as a terrent for people that are considering that path to try and get out of.

Having to do time.

That's just my personal opinion whether that's the case or not.

I hadn't that's an interesting perspective.

I hadn't even considered that.

I was thinking more of the anks that would cause the families of loved ones.

But yes, because it is a way that people could take out to protect their reputation knowing the inevitables coming, and well, if I'm no longer here my reputation there'll still be an element of doubt.

So that's a very valid point, a very valid point, and I think it's something that should should be considered.

I think the two acting is a too terrent in preventing anks for the family go hand in hand.

You know.

There's innocent until presumed guilty, but at the same time you know you shouldn't.

That shouldn't be in the pursuit of not causing a victim's family more angst than.

Needed, And it could be a case of a drag a court matter out until someone passes by natural causes rather than suicide.

So it shows that there's no benefits in delaying matters as well.

So no, I think it's a significant result that you've managed to get.

Is it a double edged sword in a way because the person hasn't been held accountable why he's still on this earth and you don't know the full details.

Taught me through it from a personal point of view, it's.

Been something that I've I've had to work out what I'm happy with, would I've liked him to be held accountable and be doing jail time, and you know, his to him, his reputation in tatters.

Yeah, you know, but at the end of the day, as I said before, it doesn't bring it back.

It doesn't change what he did.

It doesn't mitigate the abuse that she went through, or you know, the steps that he took off towards to try and cover what he did.

At the end of the day, it doesn't change anything.

Lisel's not here.

I can't do anything about that.

Him being alive or not doesn't change that.

I guess the biggest thing that I have felt was the best for me was that the Corona has named him as contributing or causing Liesl's death, rather and the fact that he can't do anything about it.

He's been named as causing the death of my sister.

He can't appeal it, His family can't do anything.

They certainly weren't interested in defending his reputation or defending his character in coronial court.

And you know that is forever on the record now, and I think in the scheme of things and the context of what's gone on, that was probably the best outcome that we were going to get and as I said, something you know said mentioned before something was better than nothing.

That's something, as you said, is quite substantial.

You know.

It's it's not.

Necessarily set a precedent, but it's shown that what happened was not okay.

And so it provides, I guess, the founding blocks of things to be built upon for that.

And if that's what's come of what's occurred, I'm okay with that.

Yeah, I understand.

As I said, it just doesn't change anything.

One thing that you missed out on the opportunity in a murder troll is a victim's impact statement that you get up and you explain to the court what the person's actions has caused in regards to your life and the paint.

What would you say that James Church now if he was still alive.

What I said in ConA is when I was allowed to speak.

You know, throughout the whole process, we had no input into any of the decisions that were made, and you know, yet we suffered the consequences.

I didn't decide to murder my sister because of a supposed event that you know, and there was some conjecture about whether Lisa was pregnant or not.

I think she was, but that's a separate thing.

You know, I didn't ask for any of this.

You know, he had no right to do what he did.

And you know the ways that that has impacted me and my family.

Some we've worked out, others.

You know, I might never understand how it's affected me or my perspective.

You know, she had her life ahead of us, and to.

Think that someone felt that they had the right to do that makes me so angry and upset.

You know, who did he think he was to do that?

You know, what gave him the right to abuse his partners, you know, or commit violence against them?

Like I don't know whether I talk to him, I probably would just refuse to acknowledge his existence in all honesty, Gary, because I think acknowledge his existence in some ways legitimizes his behavior, especially with what he did to my sister.

And I will never ever condone violence against another person, as much as you might want to do something because you're frustrated, thinking about it and carrying it out are too completely opposite opposite things.

You know, there's that no I know what's wrong, and therefore I won't do it.

But it's just.

Just he did something he didn't have the right to do, and I will never understand why he thought he did.

And you know, the stress and the angst and the pain and the impact that that has had on my family, so my husband and my kids as well as you know, my siblings and whatnot.

I don't think that will ever be able to be quantified.

And I don't think something like that can be for any family where a member or a.

Lot ofd ones gone missing, to be found murdered.

I just think it's something that's so.

Intangible and can't be measured or correlated or put in put in a way that can be measured objectively.

That's what makes it so difficult to rest with while you're going through the system.

It's not like you can say I had five of these and now I've got team and now I've lost a lot sort of things.

Yeah, it's just it's hard to verbilize it.

But I just think that, you know, we're expected to pay for something that we didn't necessarily want.

Or have any input in, and.

I just yeah, yeah, it's hard to put into words.

What would you say the families face with the battle that you've had has been a battle for you to get it to this point about your shame, resilience and tenacity to continue and fight for Liesel's memory.

What would you advise families that might find themselves in similar situations where they're battling the system, so to speak.

You can only do what you can only do, you know, I guess you know.

I always hate it when people said, you know, time heals time, doesn't you.

Know?

And it is only one day at a time.

You can't control other people's reactions or decisions.

You can only do your own.

And if that's all that you can manage, that's okay.

And it doesn't matters whether you know, I liken it to a marathon.

You just keep plugging at it.

If you take a week off because that's what.

You need to do for your mental health, and you need to step away, that's okay.

You know.

It's you're not going to You're not going to forget them.

It's not going to fall apart.

Whatever you're trying to achieve, it's not going to go away.

It will still be there.

If you need to take a step away, you know, spend time with families that are there, and you know your mental health is important, you know, because without that you can't just you can't function.

Yeah, and sadly, I've seen too many families fighting for justice in a whole range of different different forms.

And part of the advice I give them is if you've got to step away, a step away, and you articulated that very well, that you can step away and take a break, and then when you rebuilt yourself, go for it again.

I also got advice from Mark and Fay Levison, who had a battle with a system and had to try something a little bit different.

Out of left field to recover their son.

And Mark's words and I pass these words on to a lot of people, just don't take no for an answer, because I would imagine if if you just accepted what the system told you, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

Probably not.

I mean, no is not the worst thing that people can say.

I've had no a number of time and it's like, well, okay, you said no.

That just means that I need to work out how it can happen in a different way.

There are ways to achieve results.

Let's I'll just take you briefly through the findings, because it is good to hear it said publicly and the findings to be published, and this is the findings from the coroner in regards to Liesl's death.

The person who died was Liesel Smith.

The date to death Liesel died on the nine eighth of August twenty twelve, at some time after two point two pm.

Place of death.

Liesel died at or somewhere in the vicinity of the Central Coast or Upper Hut regions of New South Wales.

The cause of death.

Liesel's cause of death remains unknown.

Manner of death.

Liesel's death was a homicide.

She was killed by James Scott Church.

So you've got someone in the judicial system actually saying he's responsible.

So I would imagine that it gives you some comfort, not closure, not timehells or wounds, but it gives you some acknowledgment that at least the person responsible has been held accountable in some way.

Yeah, it does, because I was thinking about this the other day.

Funny enough, we've got someone named you know, I know personally, I know who did it and it was him.

And I think about families where it's fifteen, twenty, twenty five, thirty plus years and they're no closer to having an answer in terms of what happened or who did it, or you know, any sort of indication that things are going to be they're.

Going to get some sort of answer.

And I think in terms of that, compared to other people, I don't.

Think we're incredibly lucky.

I think the police did a fabulous job with what they had to contend with.

And I I just I can't imagine being thirty years down the track and still not knowing what the hell.

Happened to her like that.

That would just be worst nightmare sort of stuff.

So I think we are incredibly fortunate that, yes, she was missing, but there was circumstances that pointed to who who did it based.

On his own actions, amongst other things.

And I always think of those that you know, didn't have the opportunity that we did, I really just feel for them.

You know, it's very generous of you, given what yourself and your family go through.

You mentioned the police.

That coroner also mentioned the police, and again this is in the coroner's conclusions, and I'll just read out what she said about the police.

I not only extend my gratitude to them, but I formally commend the technive Sergeants Jones Hayden and Erickson and miss Lawson for their work in this enormous, multifaceted investigation which enabled the matter to proceed the trial and ultimately which has enabled me to make my factual findings in this court.

I just from a personal point of view, I like it when it's good work of police that get results.

I've got to say when I met the police, when it was back at the inquest, I met some of the police there and I was impressed by how much they cared, which carries a big carries a big thing in the way matters are investigated.

I until they genuinely cared, soquos to the police and you have already acknowledged that.

Yeah.

And the annework that they had to do and to go back and recheck and you know, consistently go back and make sure that you know what they'd found or what was said to them was true, was just enormous.

I mean, he kept changing his alibis, he kept changing what he was saying.

Everything had to be checked and double checked again to make sure that you know, there were no inconsistencies or discrepancies.

As you know, you know, they can end up quite.

Digging in criminal court it was just it was phenomenal, just you know, I have the utmost respect for the work that they did.

And then towards the end with.

The Coronial, in order to try and find where Lisa is, they had a specialist do some geo mapping, but unfortunately the area is still you know, based on the information that they had, it still remains too large to sort of pinpoint where she could be.

And the terrain there is just really rocky and scrubby and whatnot.

But it was just that extra effort, like they went back again to try and you know, using the various techniques to try and find her.

And they didn't have to, you know, they could have just done we've done that and we can't find it.

But they went back and tried again and tried different ways, and you know, obviously technology has improved a little bit.

I'm still in.

Touch with one of them and have been told that point they were up that way to touch base, which I really really appreciate.

Unfortunately, one of them has left the force in part due to this investigation, and you know, I just I take my hat off, you know, given the dynamics and a few other things that they would have had to deal with that.

It would have made investigating a lot more difficult, but they kept going, you know, and to have a police officer or a detective rather apologize for not finding his sister is confronting.

And you know, to be asked to forgive them for something that they didn't do wrong is you know the.

Fact Gerald then that they say that tells me that they care and they're the type of people that you want on the case.

They should take it personally and that you know it can come as a cost, but that brings a lot of peace to the families knowing you've got people that are genuinely trying to find out what happened.

Hey guys, it's Gary jubilin here.

Want to get more out of I Catch Killers, then you should head over to our new video feed on Spotify where you can watch every episode of I Catch Killers.

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The coroner also made a comment about the legal team, and I know the nuances of any court matter, whether it be a murder trial or a coronial inquest, the standard can be set by the team that presents it.

So I'll just read what the coroner said about the council assisting.

Finally, I think my counselor assisting team Gabriel Bashir, senior counsel Emma Sullivan and Peter ava Jones, and they're instructing solicitors Elisa Wood and Alex McShane and Vivian Way before them, who diligently assisted me and insured the fair and efficient conduct of these proceedings.

So that's good in itself.

It sounds like you got the a team for the inquest with the police and the council assisting, and it does make a difference.

So your experiences from.

That they were fabulous.

They kept in touch, whether it was by email, we had casion, we had a few meetings.

They explained sort of what they were going to do, what they wanted to include, what they would go through in presenting the case to the coroner, explain why you know they wouldn't do X, but they would.

Do why you know.

They were just they were really lovely.

They were very considerate of how this may be re traumatizing for us, especially after what had happened.

So was the coroner.

I just I couldn't fault them.

It was very much an experience that I don't.

Want to repeat, but was made a lot easier by by the way that they handled it, and you know they have my gratitude for that.

Again, it pleases me to hear that, because that can make a horrendous situation that little bit more bearable having people like that.

On the issue of changing the law.

This is from the Coroner's recommendation, so we'll just put this out there too, that the Attorney General of New South Wales refer to the New South Wales Law Reform Commission arising from the facts in this case, the question of whether the doctrine of abatement operating in the criminal justice system should be reformed, for example, to consider whether there may be proceedings in which verdicts can be delivered in circumstances wherein accused dies during the currency of their trial, and to consider in particular the operation of the doctrine in circumstances where deliberations of a judge alone or jury have concluded.

A copy of these finders is to be included with the referral.

So again cudos to the Coroner, Harriet Graham for making those recommendations, because clearly she saw something that needed to be fixed.

And hopefully those recommendations will be put in the place I hope.

So she did not sound very happy with the fact that they had not been implemented, So hopefully they do what they're supposed to.

My understanding is that the curenter does not make recommendations lightly, especially in a case like this where there are potential and substantial, far reaching legal ramifications and whatnot.

And she sounded.

Extremely frustrated that the recommendations of the review had not been implemented either.

So I would assume, and I don't use that word lightly, that if a similar case ever came before her and nothing had been done, she would have a lot more to say about the fact that the recommendations that she had made had not been taken seriously.

And I would not like to be the person in the hot seat at that pointing to me.

Well, that's good, and that's why it's important to talk about it, because sometimes the squeaky wheel is the one that gets fixed, and if you keep it in people's faces, keep the attention there.

Just finishing off for and I think you know what you've been through, but it tells me that Lisa hasn't been forgotten.

How would you like her, your sister, to be remembered as what type of person was she.

Personally?

I'd like her to be remembered as just she could have been anyone's sister, she could have been anyone's daughter, anyone's cousin.

She could have been basically the girl next door that.

You grew up with.

And as I said in Cornus Court, you know, I didn't agree with all of her decisions.

I don't have to, but they were hers to make, and any one of us have made any number of the same decisions and not had the consequences that she did, you know, and unfortunately.

For her, she paid with her life.

But you always think that it's not gonna you know, it's not going to happen to you or one of your siblings.

I think, you know, a lot was said about Lesaline Court.

A lot of it was pretty horrendous to hear and wasn't.

Very nice at all.

But you know, she had away with animals, she loved animals.

She you know, was kind, she was sensitive, She was someone who was trying to work out who she was, you know, like any one of us.

I guess the biggest thing for me for her to be remembered as is that.

You know, she could have been any as I said, anybody's daughter.

You know, she could have been your daughter or your sister.

Don't forget that she's she could have been any one of us.

It was just she happened to be my sister.

You know, she happened to be my kids, aren't I will always remember her as a mischievous kid that got up to things that she shouldn't.

And you know that I got the brunt over sometimes just you know, being a kid, and I will treasure those, I really will.

I wish I had gotten to know her as an adult.

Unfortunately that was taken away.

I don't know what she would have been like.

I speculate on that and I like to think that she would have ended up being really lovely and you know, gotten things together.

But I'll never know, So you know, I've only got what I've got to think of.

She was who she was.

Well, I think you've demonstrated the love and your family that you had for Lisel and the way that you have fought as hard as you can appropriately to get some form of justice, and like fol C thus too, We've spoken a lot of times and over a long time, and I know the battles in the emotional roller coaster you've been on, and you should be very proud of yourself on what you've done.

And taking on the system is not easy, and you took on the system.

You had to change the thinking and you got results and you've paved the way for other people if they find themselves in this situation.

So full full credit to you, and you can know that you've done everything you possibly could do in memory of your sister.

Thanks go Well.

It certainly didn't happen without your help, that's for sure.

Oh I appreciate that now.

I was honored to help in any way I could, or any little way that I could.

So thanks for reaching out to me, and you should be proud of yourself.

And yeah, well done.

Thanks going well.

I'm happy for Geraldine and the family that they've been given some answers for what happened to Lisa.

It's good when the legal system accept that laws are not always perfect and acknowledged that sometimes they might need to be changed.

Geraldine is an example for all families battling a rigid justice system, and sometimes you just got to keep fighting to get the justice you're seeking.

And as for James church Well, I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

His actions destroyed live and he didn't even have the carriage to be held accountable

Mm hm