I've never met a man or a person like you that I say horrible things and you lean in and want to hear more from me.

And what I learned was all that I learned about interventions and interpretations, and it's worth something.

But for her, she just needed to know that there was somebody out there that wanted to hear what it was like.

And she transformed.

Let's say you were afraid of public speaking, and you got a great opportunity to speak on stage in front of like a thousand people, and this opportunity would absolutely change your entire life level of every aspect of you.

But you are terrified to speak in public.

What would you do?

Even at my ripe old age, I still get tripped up.

I'll still pigeonhole myself into this place that's reminiscent of when I was sixteen years old, that old historical family of origin trauma.

Paul will pull me back in and it will still take me out of going what am I doing?

I fell into that same place again.

So in therapy culture, people are often encouraged to talk it out.

Do you think modern psychology has overemphasized talking and underemphasized listening.

Yes, One hundred percent yes.

Hey conscious Man seventh family.

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What if the reason your relationships fail isn't what you say, but how you listen?

Hello, friends, welcome to The Conscious Man seven Podcasts.

I am your host, Todd Cave and my guest today, Doctor Randall Alifan believes listening isn't passive, it's the most radical act of love, presence, and strength a man can embody.

For over forty years, Randall has guided people to dismantle their personas, quiet the inner chatter, and come home to raw receptivity.

Today, he'll reveal how childhood wounds shape the mask we wear white advice kills intimacy, and how presence can transform your relationships with your partner, your children, your colleagues, and yourself.

This isn't therapy, this is revolution.

So let's dive in.

When truth is blurred by lies and misinformation.

Perception becomes reality.

What will you perceive your reality to be.

Liberate your fears and walk with me, sit down and meditate, connect with your soul, be a monster, and then learn how to control it.

You got to be willing to do the work.

So it really goes really deep in terms of words and etymology and what they mean.

So this is why it is really hard to really crack matrix because there's so many levels and layers to it.

You know, Randal, Welcome to the Conscious Man seven podcast.

How are you today?

I'm quite well.

That was awesome, by the way, that was very well said.

Maybe I should interview you.

Well, you know, Randal, when it was checking invout, I had some of my own internal dialogue going on, where in the past I have been told that I told you don't really listen to what I'm seeing and stuff like that, and this was in relationships to give context, so I said to myself, you know what, I know that most men tend to have similar characteristics.

We're not all the same, but there's certain traits that we tend to have and men generally tend to be problem solve roods.

But with that sort of like bait in our DNA.

We tend to forget another part, which is actually listening.

So we would hear something and we go straight into problem solving mode and then the other part of listening, now we tend to forget.

So when I was looking, well, I was like, you know what, this would be something that not only I could learn, but all of my listeners can learn.

And I think even though what we will talk about is mostly about men focused on men, I think women will also add value because some we men do tell women that they don't really listen to us as well.

So I think that this is a good conversation to have for both parties.

But because I am a man, it will be probably most lately it will be more talk catered to men, and that's what you've specialized in as well.

But I think both parties will get some value from this conversation today.

So let's start at the beginning.

You've said that even in high school, friends came to you with their worries and always left feeling better.

Do you remember the first moment you realized listening was your superpower?

Well, I'm not sure I recognize that as a superpower, but the first time I was very conscious of listening and how people don't listen was when I was much younger than high school, sitting around a big Italian family dinner every Sunday and hearing everybody talk over everybody else, and I would sit quietly because I was a young guy, and I would be stunned that everybody's talking, and their voices get louder and louder because they so want to be heard, and nobody was listening.

Nobody was listening, and I could feel in me the pain, that kind of isolation of what it's like that people are just talking over everybody.

And I remember, even at that age, making a note of this seems weird.

Something's out of balance here.

So I took an interest in listening, even though at that age it wasn't conscious.

I would ask questions.

I wanted to get to know people.

So somehow, when I got to high school, because I asked questions, I wanted to know what it was like from your perspective.

People started coming over to my house and would talk to me about whatever, and I was genuinely curious about what's it like for you, especially when a woman would come over we were friends.

It wasn't anything sexual, and they would open up about their boyfriend or their mom or what and I was what, what was that?

Like, how did that happen?

And you know, I didn't have any brilliant interventions, but I really wanted to hear from them, and so yeah, typically they would leave feeling a lot better.

And of another little fun story, I was at a party in high school and a quarterback of the football team was drunk and he came to me and he said, Hey, everybody's here telling me I should talk to you because you're good at that shit.

And I said okay, and he just started blathering in a drunken spree, and I was I thought, okay, yeah, I want to hear, and I asked some questions and at the end, like a kind of a macho guy, he grabbed me, gave me a big hug and said, man, you are good at this shit and walked out.

And I was like, I have no idea what just happened, but I'm glad it felt good to you.

Wow, that's very interesting.

I mean, I guess listening was something that you've doing for any time you were you can remember then subconsciously, you.

Know, Yeah, I think something about how I was born or even at that early age with my family of origin, hearing what was lacking and wanting to fill in that void.

Well, I can definitely agree with you in terms of what an Italian tables look like because I have dating an Italian girl for many years and it is true, at a round the table it gets loud, you know, very passionate people loud, So I can I can totally totally get where you're coming from.

So you've also shared that your childhood wasn't perfect and that the wounds you carried shape the persona you built to protect yourself.

Can you walk us through what that persona looked like and how you began to see through it?

Yeah, I think this is something that's applicable for every human being on the planet.

Robert Stolero came up with this great term called organizing principle that just in our family of origin, they teach us principles like if you're a boy, don't cry, you should throw football better, whatever it is, and those principles become organized, and then our life becomes can become narrow as we get in this world, I have to be this way, so we become very narrow in our focus about who we are and what we're allowed to do.

And that's one of the reasons why I love listening because when I as a therapist, when I speak to people, they come in like this, and then they start opening up and seeing more of themselves than just what was programmed through childhood.

Does that makes sense?

Absolutely it does.

And then you know, like sayings, I've started this show and I've had so many conversations, and then also when it include my awakening process, it's mad how when we're born, we're given a name, a race, and nationality and then most of the time of religion.

These are four things that we didn't choose, we were just given and we create like this identity associated with Okay, well I'm black, so this is what being black means.

I'm Italian, so this is what Italian looks like.

Then because I was born in Barbados, this is always I'm supposed to behave and he's on my mannerisms X, Y, and Z.

And it's kind of mad, how like the programming and starts from and I mean, it's not our parents as fault because they don't know any better because that's how they were programmed.

As well, right right, And in terms of like boys, for sure, you're told don't cry, can't be weak, you can't be soft, you know, buckle up, soldier, fix your socks.

You know.

You can have many different terms, and it kind of like shapes our personality.

And I mean, I do think that that there's an element of it that's good in the sense where because men have certain more sort of like they're more attuned to certain things like hard work and stuff like that because we're physically strong, I think that they are a good traits to it.

But then it gives us like a blindside where we're not able to express feelings or emotions or even listen because it's all about being assertive, because assertiveness is very masculine.

But that's how you get ahead, that's how because in the world of men, men compete against men, so it's always about competition to try to improve.

So it is kind of like now that we're adults that we have to like deconstruct deep program some of those things to bring in the blame spots that we have to add to the positives and the strengths that we were given from that same mindset.

So itre is some the coupling to do to then come come back forward.

Well said, I agree with that absolutely, and that so directly impacts listening because if you're a black man who's raised Jewish and I'm a white man who's raised Catholic, we're different until we start talking with each other.

And then yeah, you may have some cultural differences that I have, but when we really talk and listen to each other, we're brothers.

There's very very little that's different about us, except maybe I make a better lasagna than you do or something like that.

The important things we find under those what you call the programming, what I call filters.

That the more we can walk away filters, the more I realize you're my brother, she's my sister.

We're all in this together.

So to me, listening rather than speaking is really the heart of finding communion.

It's a meditation.

Wow, meditation, that's a very interesting word to use.

That's how I've in my practice.

I'm meditating while I'm sitting with people.

I'm quiet, I'm breathing, and my mind is quiet, so I can really receive what's being spoken.

Okay, well you take this to another level, man, Thank you.

Wow.

Okay, Okay, So with over forty years of integrating psychology and spirituality, what moment most powerfully revealed to you that true healing comes through listening, not fixing.

That's a great question.

Okay.

So when I first started in my practice forty years ago, a a psychiatrist who took a liking to me, set me up in an office and started referring clients to me.

And one of the people one of the first people he sent to me, he said, she has some anxiety, and I thought, okay.

She came in and after a couple of weeks, she started telling me stories about her history, what happened to hers a child, and there were stories that Stephen King wouldn't be able to hear.

It was horrible, I mean horrible, like cult abuse from birth on.

And I was completely in over my head.

I had never heard that people were treated like this.

Nothing in my education taught me how to deal with it, and I thought, the only thing I know how to do is listen.

And I thought, this is it's such horror that she's communicating to me about what happened to her when she was a little kid.

That it wasn't about healing her, it was about really listening.

So at least she could know that somebody here in the world wants to get what it was like for her, and that's the feedback she would give me.

She'd say, I've seen so many therapists.

She was probably forty five when I started seeing her, and I could tell right away their level of listening, how much they could stand hearing about my horrible stories.

I've never met a man or a person like you that I say horrible things and you lean in and want to hear more from me.

And what I learned was all that I learned about interventions and interpretations, and it's worth something.

But for her, she just needed to know that there was somebody out there that wanted to hear what it was like for her, and she transformed, and she told her psychiatrist and her doctor, and pretty soon I was getting these referrals of folks who were brutally mistreated as children.

Still didn't know what the hell to do, except but they all said the same thing, which is, I could never talk about this with anybody because I could tell they would get anxious and they would pull back.

They didn't know what to say or do.

And I thought, right, I think the good thing I did is I stopped putting pressure on me to say or do anything for you.

I just wanted to hear what it was like for you.

And that was an incredible lesson to me.

So even when I wrote the book, I kind of give a lot of credit to those folks who taught me shut up.

I don't need your brilliant interpretations.

I just want to be able to not be alone in this pain anymore.

And I thought, Wow, you're the folks who really taught me how to do this more than anything I learned in my education.

Wow.

Like I said before, you've taken list it to another level.

And that's a very very interesting skill.

And you know, there's sort of like a concept in the red pill community that women just want to be heard, and what you're saying confirms that, you know.

So I do think that listening is a really important skill.

And my mother I always used to say it to me, Todd.

You know, Sundays is not all about talking all the time, about listening to what people say.

And now that I do interviews, I end up doing a lot of listening because I don't like to interrupt my guests so much, and I try to bring out the best out of them and try to make them look good so that people can get value.

And so what's happening to me now is because when I first started my podcast, and I was the person doing all the talking because I had very controversial stuff to say about our ancient hitting history and religion and consciousness and stuff like that.

But then as I transitioned out to having my own show, then that particular skill I sort of I've been fine tuning and refining and stuff like that.

And now to hear you saying these things, it kind of confirms to me while actually I'm on the right path and this show has actually made me grow a hell of a lot.

So wow, thanks for that distinction.

Good Tell your mama I appreciate her.

She definitely will say thank you, You're welcome because she listens to all of my shows and she's probably my biggest supporter.

And I remember when I first said I'm going to do the show.

I'm kind of lucky to my mother.

My mother never told me no for anything that I wanted to do.

She just said, okay, son, if this is what you want to do, I'll support you.

Because she always knew that I gave one hundred percent of everything I did, even because I used to be a sportsman, I mean still to be fair, I do calasthetics.

But you know, whatever it was, tennis, football, cricket, basketball, swimming, table tennis, law, tennis, you name it, I've done it.

Yeah.

And she would bite the rackets, the shoes, the gear, the shiny bad football boots, whatever it was, and that's what she did.

So I guess, like you know, I have a lot to pat him to her for this.

Even that, as a form of listening, I can feel my boy would do better with those shoes or these shint guards or I so want him to live his life that I'll pick up He needs these things, and if I can afford it, I want to go out and get it for him.

That's a good mom that's really listening to what her kid needs.

Wow, that's really nice to say it.

Thank you.

So you've described your own story as a process of quotation marks coming home.

What does home mean to you today?

Call compare it to what it meant when you first started this journey.

You mean, started this journey when I became an adult in my twenties or something.

When you first started this journey and your work.

You do, I think it got more deeper and more sophisticated over the years that to me, coming home, like I mentioned earlier, is a little bit like meditating, quieting all those programs that you spoke about earlier, quieting all those filters, and being so quiet that I could hear things that a moment ago I wouldn't have heard.

And that doesn't only apply to other people.

I'm a drummer, so to really listen to other drummers while we're coming in with rhythms is vitally important, and it's frustrating to me when I'm drumming with a group and one person's off the downbeat, I can hear it, and it bugs me that why can't you hear that you're off?

So, whether it's drumming or walking in the woods and hearing the birds, to me, coming home is being present in the moment so that I'm receiving again.

It's easy as a man, as a privileged man, to put out into the world what I want, what I'm going to do.

It's much more difficult and subtle to be quiet and listen and be present without expression.

And to me, that changed my world.

It changed my life, and I'll tell you yeah, well, I'll tell you a little cute story.

My partner, Davida, we went out to dinner our first date, and I didn't know if it was the right thing.

We had been friends for twelve years, and I thought we should probably just stay friends.

And to make a long story short, we ended up getting together and I said why and she said, I had never been listened to like that.

So I wrote in the book listen isn't only good for the other person, it's good for you.

You get to hook up with a beautiful, sexy, intelligent, articulate so side benefits to really listening.

Yeah, you know, like I said earlier, I find that because my mother has said a lot of things to me that it's only as an adult know that they really make sense.

And she always used to say listening to odd No, you need to pay attention and to listen to what people are saying.

And it's kind of true, because I find that today is very much about getting our points across, but not listening to the other person's point of view to be able to respond to it, because we tend to just respond based on necessarily, I guess, because the tonality and not necessarily the substance of what is there.

So I think that you know the things that we're going to talk about, and your skill set is really something that I think it's quite needed day because especially in the geopolitical space where may're not trying to get to politics political here, but I think if politicians were to listen a bit more to people and the people across sitting from them, I think that a lot more could be done.

But they spend more time talking than actually listening.

So maybe we need to send the politicians to doctor Randa Alifano so that.

They could get some therapy it learned to listen, because I think they would benefit greatly with what you shared so far right, I think they could maybe make changes if they listened.

That would be lovely, But I doubt that they'll ever show up.

Yeah me too, me too, because they just do what they feel like.

You know.

So you said childhood wounds and defenses shape the persona men carry into adulthood.

What are the most common mask men were and how do those masks silently control their lives.

I don't know, because I think it's as varied as there are individual men who are raised by individual families.

But what I notice a lot with men is they will protect themselves from made up threats that they think are right around the corner.

So they're already a little bit like this without even knowing it.

There's a and they can feel it once they start exploring it.

They can feel a somatic contraction, especially in the belly.

There are solar plexus is a little locked up because we've been taught, like you were mentioning earlier, the world can be a harsh place.

Get ready for it.

Your mama is doing this beautiful thing of going yeah, yeah, but listen, you know, quiet down and listen.

And I love that she gives you that wisdom.

But most men are raised, you know, get ready.

You fight for everything, you compete for everything.

And there's truth, there's some truth to that, no doubt.

But it makes us a little bit like this, Like I remember growing up.

I grew up in New York.

When I was I think sixteen, I studied martial arts because you had to be ready, and you know what a program look.

But you better learn how to fight because you're going to be You're on the street and who knows what's going to happen.

And I think, well, of course that I'm going I'm going to be looking around.

Am I safe?

Am I not?

Now?

When I'm playing football, I don't want to listen to the running back coming at me.

As a cornerback, I want to knock them down.

So that kind of competition I like.

But it's all agreed upon.

We're going to bring all of our ferocity to this game.

Great, let's do it.

But when it comes to real contact, for men to settle down and not have to always express themselves in the hopes of contact, but to realize maybe what my partner's saying of, hey, I wish you would listen more or get what it's like for me.

They're actually suggesting some wisdom here of take a breath, ask a question, get to know me.

And when you do what I noticed for men, that contraction opens up.

They don't have to be so afraid of her doing some number on them.

And what I like to talk to talk about with men in my practice is I'll say, I'm about to use a dirty word, you're ready dependency because men we're not dependent.

And I said, I mean dependency like you've got my back, right, my partner, You've got my back, I can depend on you.

That push comes to shove.

We've got each other's back, And for men oftentimes that's hard because we're so used to being alone and you know, and fighting to get by.

So for men to drop into Yeah, if I'm with my woman and I can depend on her, I know she's got my back.

If I hurt, she's going to show up.

If I need something, she wants to show up.

Yeah, that's a game changer for.

Men, absolutely, I agree.

The thing is is that I don't know where it comes from, but if you talk to a lot of men today, they don't have that belief that if something happens, that they have a woman that they could depend on, right, right, And I think because of that, men overcompensate it because the sad reality is that, especially today modern day dating, any sort of weakness to most girls, not all girls, but there's a large percentage of modern girls that are like this.

Any sort of weakness or failure in the man, that's it.

They walk away and leave.

And I was telling a friend of mine that the ideal woman is sort of like ho because I was kidding.

The eighties and in the nineties, Chicago Bulls were the best team.

So I always use the analogy of Michael Jordan and Pippin.

No, I mean you could take that to another level and then Rodman, but that would be the type of story.

But I thought that Michael Jordan and Scotty Pippin were the best dynamic duel in the game at the time, where Michael Jordan was the lead and he the burden was on him a performance and he would rise all the time.

But when Michael had an off day, boom.

Pipping used to come up with a triple double every single time.

And then if either of them are off, then Rodman comes in, which is why saying that Rodman was still very important.

But for this analogy, Pippin always stepped up and it's like he knew he was a number two.

He played his role and the day Michael was off, triple double bump and then be like wait, Pippin just turned up.

But because he understood his role and Michael had confidence that if something was off for him mentally, Pippin was there.

But most men today believed that they had to be Jordan, Pippin and Rodman because the women in their life.

This is no Pipping, It's just not there.

And I don't know why that dynamic is there, but what it has done the relationships to day in the modern sense.

Obviously, like I said, not all relationships are not all women, but a lot of men just don't feel like there's no there's anyone there that has their back, you know.

And I saw an interesting compilation of it, you know, man on the street interviews and they were asking men, so, if something happens and you needed help, who was there for you?

And they all said, no one.

And this is the reality that may face and you know, most people that are I guess I can say most of the men don't don't even know that that.

Men just don't feel like they have that like if they have their back, you know, if anything happens, you know, right.

They're that alone.

My bias would be, what what is that man doing to make an intimate contact with, for example, a partner, so that they're bringing a vulnerability, They're testing their relationship through a vulnerability, so that when the woman does show up, he goes, oh, that's that's different.

Not excuse me not.

Unlike the story I told you about these severely traumatized individuals, they were totally alone.

They didn't believe anybody would want to hear from them, and as soon as someone did start to listen to them, they started to blossom.

They came out of their quote pathologies psychological pathology, jeez, and start to thrive in the world.

And I think it's the same with men and with women, because I think you could make that argument both ways.

They don't feel like their partner has their back, and I would challenge when I work with couples, I challenge, can you bring a vulnerability where and let's see how your partner responds, because if they start shaming you, then you're right, you're alone.

We've got to work on that because they're not really listening anymore.

But nine times out of ten, as soon as the woman or the man brings some vulnerability, the other person goes, oh, really, that's how you feel, and they change, They open and they want to hear what it's like.

So I would challenge men, if you feel alone, take a look at what you're doing to consciously or unconsciously support the notion that you're alone by stepping back by not coming forward.

Very interesting.

So basically I guess the same way women.

If men tests, men can give women tests to see okay, she would she be there to step up, so then know you know, and then you can say, okay, well if she didn't step up, this is something that we need to work on to improve the relationship because in reality, I feel alone and I don't feel like I've got any help.

Right.

I can tell you a little story again, my lady Davida.

I had to go to Arizona for a medical procedure and I'm alone.

You know, that's one of my core issues.

I know I'm alone.

So I said, you don't need to go.

I'll fly there, you know, get a hotel, do the procedure, no worries.

And she was like, okay, that feels weird.

And then one day she came up to me and she said, if it were if it was I that had to go to Arizona for this medical treatment, would you insist on coming?

I said absolutely.

She said, I'm coming to Arizona.

It's non negotiable.

I'm coming with you.

And the way she said it it was so grounded.

It was I've got your back, even if you don't think I've got it, I'm coming.

It was like a demand, and I could feel it right into this alone place, this little secluded place in my chest of she's got me, She's gonna come with me, and I can't do any of my numbers to same, Fine, don't worry about it.

And she came with me, and I thought those moments, those little moments that get through those filters, those defenses, so that I can land in.

Okay, I'm not the only caretaker around here.

She wants to do right by me too.

That was powerful.

Absolutely.

Like I said, then Jordan has Pippin.

Jordan can have confidence that if anything happens, Pippin is there.

And it is very much.

And that's whay lightly the Jordan Pippin analogy because most men get it.

And maybe we may not necessarily because they may not be into sports or basketball.

But if they want to really understand it, better girls go and check out somebody own nineties games with Jordan and Pippen and you understand what it means very much.

What we're talking about here is that dynamic dual aspect where every single time Jordan failed bump, Pippen was there.

This is why they want six rings.

Yeah, right, So you talk about internal chatter, that voice that tells us to perform, protect or overthink, what is the root of this chatter.

How can men quiet it without falling into repression.

Yeah, that's a really deep and good question.

I think it's a question that's been with us since humans existed, is how to get out of our head all the programming that made those voices in our head and just be quiet.

And I think that's where meditation comes in.

And that's why I think real listening is a meditation practice, because or else.

Even with therapists.

When I consult with other therapists, they're busy in their head trying to figure out what they should do for the client e, and even if their intentions are good, I suggest temporarily put those aside.

Don't have intentions, don't think about what pathology am I picking up, ask questions until you have a felt experience of what it's like over there.

Then you can listen to the busyness of your brain, but you're not going to really hear them.

You're not going to really hear the drumming the birds out in nature with that noise always going on in your head.

So if you really want to listen in the raw, part of that is being an empty vessel so that you can receive.

And what I say to men which is terrifying for them sometimes.

Is one way to look at it is you're allowing yourself to be penetrated, your heart be penetrated by what the other person's saying.

It's just gets in there now the good thing about your.

That's great, like right, because it's.

Not our way.

But to do it, there's an you know, with clients through the years, there's a suddenly there's an intimacy, there's a connection, but a moment ago was not there and could not happen unless there was, unless I was coming home to the quiet.

Very interesting.

You know what what I'm finding is that today this world now, all of these sort of like programming that we've all the programming that we've had, is being gradually deep programmed with information in what you're sharing now.

And I can see that if we were to embrace a lot of these new sets of nonledge coming about, we can have a real change in humanity.

But it is a matter then of being stuck in on always.

And even though like I said, just now that you know it's very scary, with the right person, I would have no problem in doing that.

But the thing is now from a man's point of view, is how to tell who's the right person, because that vulnerability I think needs to be earned and it can be just given away really nilly to to to every woman, because you know, there's certain elements that make men attractive to women.

And while vulnerability is like lower down the line, I think that comes when there's this trust, when that pippin s sort of personality is starting to come out where you're like, Okay, well she's showing signs that she could be pipping, so Danny would feel comfortable to go that step.

But if you know, I mean, you're not seeing signs that Pippin is there.

I think is not necessarily wise to show that vulnerability because I think it has to be something something earned, you know.

And just kidding away, let me ask you a question.

So in your partnerships, how did you test your vulnerability in the hands of your woman.

Well, the thing is that I didn't have the knowledge that I have today where I would actually would test it.

Situations would arise.

And you would learn, oh, well they don't actually have my back and they left.

Now today, you know, I asked questions like, okay, how do you deal with fear?

So first thing is a very strange question.

It said, Okay, let me explain, because I know I get it to ask question.

I says, but okay, there's a classic one.

I says.

Let's say you were afraid of public speaking, and you've got a great opportunity to speak on stage in front of like a thousand people, and this opportunity would absolutely change your entire life level of every aspect of you, but you are terrified to speaking public.

What would you do so for me?

Now?

That is actually one of the questions I asked women who I think are a potential candidate that will takes seriously, And the reason is is that I want to see how they're going to deal with difficult situations that dealing with their fears now.

And the reason why I asked that question is that I am terrified of certain things, but I'm very comfortable to be uncomfortable because I know it's going to give me growth.

So there will be a pointed time where I will have that internal chat of like, I'm not doing I'm not doing I'm not doing it.

But after what I'm knowing, No, this is what I'm afraid of, I'm going to do it anyway.

Yes, So these are kind of questions I asked, So this is what I said.

At the time, years ago, I didn't have the knowledge to either ask questions like that or to test.

It was just the test came.

Then I got the lesson, and then we moved on, you know.

Because because the answer you got satisfied you there you mean back then or no, I don't know.

Well, but now when I asked that question, it gives me an ability to see exactly what kind of personal in.

Dealing with and then no vulnerability.

If the person says depends on the answer, then I can see, okay, well I can there lit their steps that I can do to have vulnerability released at certain stages where bit by bit by bit by bit, where like I said, it's something that I think needs to be earned right so that I can get trust, because I don't think it's just won't being vulnerable to everybody because.

Not a good idea.

Yeah, not a good idea, you know what I mean.

But yes, now with the understanding I have of myself and especially from talking to so many people on this show and relationships of recent years, they're certain like tests, I guess.

I guess you could call it tests or questions that would ask to find out exactly the personality and dealing with to see, Okay, well, I can listen now to find out what's going on in their childhood.

Because what I realized that all these things going from childhood and then it's a matter of asking other questions forget them to see it was just a story and they can do their own process.

You know, so well said, And if I may jump on that, we men are taught I think you could almost say this universally.

We men are taught to be tough to face life, and vulnerability is a weakness.

We've been trained to think vulnerability is a weakness, and sometimes it is.

I mean, if I'm on the street and someone wants to fight with me, I don't want to be vulnerable.

So there's wisdom to that out in the world.

But we're so off balanced in that direction that when I work with a man and he drops into vulnerability, my bias now is that was incredibly courageous.

That was the kind of courage not many men are willing to drop into because that vulnerability means your defenses are gone or at least relaxed, and you could get hurt.

So for you to take that risk, either I'm working with them individually or their partners there.

I praise them because I know every step along that cracking open, allowing penetration, allowing vulnerability to be out on the table, it's an incredible act of courage.

So I want to redefine what it is to be a man along the lines of yeah, when you're going to play football, go get them, when you want to make real contact with your partner, your ability to be vulnerable, to be that courageous.

That's that's the way to be a man is to have access to both sides of that equation.

Yes, I've absolutely and I totally agree with with that because this is what has actually been happening to me in my personal life, and because I relay a lot no on intuition.

So like basically, my assistant she saw your name and stuff and I read it, and I was like, I was reading up on your website stuff.

It was just like yeah, the intuition was just like okay, yep, that's it.

I didn't read too much and that was it.

I decided, Okay, let's get him on the show and talk with him.

And this is how I operate now, where I guess the lack of better we're feelings, but it's actually a higher level of feelings called intuition.

Whenever that voice or that cut feeling comes and tells me to do something, I always do it now because when they don't follow it, things always don't turn up the way they should.

So I totally agree what you're talking about.

The balance, I'll totally get it.

And that's listening.

Listening isn't only I will listen to you.

It's how to listen to that quiet whisper of intuition that's not going to yell at me.

If I'm all busy in my head, I have to be somewhat quiet to hear, oh right, I want to go that way where I want to go this way where I don't want to go that way.

So I'm a big fan of what you're saying because that's how I am.

For example, in my office, I sit and I'm quiet, and I hear from someplace in me intuition that tells me oh, like I could tell you.

Yesterday, I was having a phone call with a new potential client.

She's a woman who's a therapist, and she was talking and I was quiet, and she didn't say anything about crying, but I felt tears.

So I said, you know, we don't know each other, but I as you're talking, I just feel like there were tears right behind your words.

She started crying.

We're on the phone with each other, and she said, this is amazing.

I've been in therapy for twenty five years.

I never cry in therapy.

I'm talking to you for the first time on the telephone.

You somehow know there are tears behind and then the tears come.

And I thought, well, that's magic, that's this is wonderful for both of us.

But I would never have heard that little voice in me.

If I was busy thinking what's this woman about?

What we know?

I have to diagnose her, whatever mumbo jumbo is going on in my head, I would have never heard that quiet whisper.

And I'm so glad that you hear it too.

Oh.

Yes, it is my guiding light.

No, honestly, I just trust the voice as I call it, and that's when we can express it.

It just it talks to me yes, and I just have to just give it reverence and respect and whenever it tells me do this.

And it's always very direct, short sentences, sometimes no more than three words.

Most of the time, it's two words and I just follow.

And I obviously I still use a lot of logic, but I use even like my assistant, she never had training to do what she does with me.

And I spoke to her and the boy said, to me, get her.

It was someone else that had much more experience.

And she honestly, because she listens to my show, she helps me a lot.

If I didn't have her, I wouldn't be as thorough as I am.

She really really helps me a lot, and it's because, like I just listened to that voice, and she helps me pick the people that come on the show as well, and she she may truly listened.

She says, Yeah, there's rad though, you know what I mean.

So I just want to publicly thank you her as well.

So you can depend on her.

Absolutely absolutely, I feel it can depend on her, you know.

And a little while ago you asked me about coming home to me that you just nailed it.

I know I'm home.

If I hear that intuition, if I hear, oh, she's the one, she's going to be my assistant, You're home.

You know exactly what right action is?

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

So if you had to name the one unconscious filter that destroys intimacy more than any other.

What would it be?

How have you seen it play in marriages, fatherhood, and even leadership.

God, that's a question and a half.

I have an answer, but I don't know how much of my own my own filters are guiding this answer, because I do think it's a loneeness.

We presume, without even thinking about it, that we're alone in the world.

So a story that's coming up for me is if a boy, four year old boy has a nightmare and starts yelling Papa, Papa, and the father comes in and says, what's going on?

There's a monster under the bed.

Look, there's no monster under the bed.

I have to get up early to go to work.

Shut up, go to sleep.

The child learns, don't be vulnerable.

Fear equals shaming, so shut up, and now that child's alone.

If the papa comes in and goes, baby, what happened?

Monster under the bed?

And the dad sits on the bed, what was the monster?

Like?

Do you want me to look under the bed with you?

I'll sit here with you, the child learns fear vulnerability.

I have a good person that comes and sits with me.

I'm not alone.

So the first child grows up, and you know, if the father does that once, he's done it one hundred times in one way or the other.

Why didn't you hit that?

You know?

Why did you strike out?

You know whatever?

That kid learns I'm alone in the world and I have to watch my back all the time.

The other child has a better chance of I can bring these tender things, these scary things, whatever, and I have an expectation that someone will show up for me, that the world wants to be good to me here.

So I think unfortunately most of us are more towards the first family system, where parents are too busy, too unconscious to whatever, too stressed to really give their kid that time.

Like I teach parents, if you're dealing with a twelve year old and they're trying to tell you they're angry at you, ask questions because they don't they can't articulate clearly what you did that they don't like.

And if you ride away, say don't you talk to me with that tone, You're adding to the injury they're trying to tell you about.

Be curious, say so what are you that made you angry?

And give them time to find language.

Then we can start to reverse the pattern.

Then that ingrained aloneness starts to move a little bit.

And so I think how we were taught out as children teaches us that somewhere along the continuum of a loneness where we land there, and how to bust out of it.

That's why what you were saying earlier about, you know, hooking up with a partner.

To me, one of the reasons we want to hook up with a really good partner is we want someone that's devoted to us sufficiently that we don't feel alone anymore, even if we don't like that they do this thing or that thing, the deeper material of like she's got my back, or when I'm courageous enough to say, you know, I'm scared, I've got this huge bill I don't know how to pay it.

Instead of them going, well you should have thought of that before, right, they say, talk about it, baby, what happened?

Then we're not so alone?

Yeah.

I think I think you're right.

You know, I think it's a lonelessly because I think by nature we are social creatures.

And yes, it is almost like this subconscious fear of a loneeness that we all have because I mean, if you look at all the animals, the animal kingdom, they all pair up.

We are mammals and we end up pairing up.

So I guess maybe it is all rooted in the belief or thought of a loneeness.

So that we're taught, Yeah, that we're taught.

Yeah.

So many men equate vulnerability with weakness.

How do you reframe vulnerability as a deeper form of masculine strains?

Exactly?

Yeah.

Like I said earlier, I think it's ridiculously courageous for we men who were taught to be tough at all times, to challenge that world philosophy and bring vulnerability.

It's an act of courage.

That's the kind of man I respect.

I have very little respect for a man that's so tight, so masculine, if you will, that they are so alone that they have no awareness of their own vulnerability.

I have a lot of respect for men who challenge that and make attempts at dropping in underneath their defenses, underneath all their protection mechanisms, to bring something more tender, more open, more that gives the other more access to what's going on inside underneath those protection mechanisms.

That to me is a man I respect.

Yeah.

It definitely takes a lot of courage to be vulnerable.

It takes, I think, way more strength to be vulnerable than it is to put up the appearance of always being strong.

It's exhausting.

Super So, your book Listening in the Raw speaks about receptivity.

What does it mean to listen in the raw?

Hold is it different from ordinary listening?

Who wrote these questions?

They're awesome, really awesome, Thank you.

I titled the book Listening in the Raw because I wanted to make a connection with being naked.

That to listen in the raw, to me is an act of courage, because like as a therapist, I don't sit down with a client or especially a new client, thinking I know what's going on.

I think I don't know what's going on.

And to me, again, sitting being able to sit in the unknown without any I guess defense, defensive structure that pretends like I know what's going on and I don't.

It makes one feel naked, raw, permeable.

So and that was my experience.

My dissertaine was called empathic surrender because what I noticed when I was talking to people like these individuals I talked about in the beginning of our talk today.

I literally had no idea what was going on.

And so for me to be able to be comfortable in that and not know what's going on and to really listen, I felt naked.

I didn't have the defense of I'm a therapist, I know what's going on.

Watch me say important words like anxiety disorder or whatever it was.

More, I'm inviting you to find a way.

I'm inviting us to find a way that you get inside me.

Even horror that you're talking about, I can feel it from the inside out.

That's the rawness of it.

It's not easy.

It takes some courage and a strong grounding to be able to be so moved by another person's pain, struggle, their vulnerability, whatever it is.

So to me, that's the power and that's the meaning of listening in the raw.

And what I mean by empathic surrender is don't use empathy as a technique, because everybody knows if it's a technique.

They may not say anything, but they'll take a millimeter back.

They can feel it.

But if you're surrendered, you're just open.

They take steps forward because they can feel that too.

Wow, that's powerful.

Oh so.

Super You've said true listening is not about advice or fixing, but about presence and love.

Why do so many of us feel the urge to jump jump in and fix and how do we resist it?

Again Todd these questions, I think it's primarily about fear.

If I know what's going on, if I give you advice, premiature advice, that's about me being afraid to be sitting in the unknown until I really get what it's like for you from the inside out.

So when I consult with therapists, oftentimes I'll tell them stop trying to fix anybody, stop trying to figure them out.

Ask follow your innate curiosity until you have a felt sense of what it's like for them, whether their boss is yelling at them, what's it like.

Don't give advice right away of well you should speak back to them, or he doesn't get you, or it's not helpful.

Just listen and ask questions until you get what it's like for that person, that the boss is whatever shaming them the way they are.

Then advice kind of like what you were saying earlier about intuition.

It comes, but it comes in an organic way, not in a noisy headway.

So I guess part of it then as well with the listening is to ask questions because by asking questions then you can get to the root causes and to get to what's really causing the disturbance.

Yes, right, Yes, questions are the way.

You know it's mad.

Because this is something that I've started to do in my relationships as well, where I tend to ask questions because I find that, like when you start to really understand socio dynamics between men and women and also be into dynamics between men and men, find that there's a commonality where we don't really ask enough questions because like you can get you can have a mate and you know he be telling you something and you get upset, But do we really ask, well, why did you say that?

Or what caused you to do that?

And I got this sort of like understanding because part of my job is that I'm in sales and I'm a online I'm an online coach, so I teach fitness and stuff.

I help spiritually incline people burn fat and bill muscle.

And one of the things that I was taught is in order to sell is actually not to sell.

Your job is to find out what are the person's problems.

So you have to ask questions to get to what is really their pain?

What are the obstacles?

And then you can find out Now, all right, because this is my skill set, you say, well, because of X, Y and z, I have the solution to the X, Y and z.

So what happens then is that you don't really sell.

You find out the problem and give the solution.

So it just becomes like ah, okay, but it made sense to do, right because now it's not really selling selling.

So this is why, like even with this show that I have no why ask questions because I mean my brain is a little bit different because I used to be a civil engineer, So I look at structures and stuff, and I find that a lot of podcasts, which you know is while it can work for them, it's open conversations.

For me, I like a little bit of order and structure because that's just how my brain works.

That's the logical part of me.

Now where I like, Okay, I want to find out who's this guy Randall, what was his past, what is his skill set?

How can he add value X, Y and z.

So this is why like questions that I have or like this because it's like I want to make you look good.

I want to make your knowledge because you have forty years of listening.

Like me, I'm still learning.

I'm learning from you just talking to you.

So it's like, how can I learn?

How can the other people learn listening to this?

So could you know?

I find that questions are a good way to really get like, what's bothering this person?

You know what I mean?

Like because it may not even be you.

They may have just been having a bad day.

They dog could have died, or someone cut them up on the motorway, and you.

Know me, they committed.

They just dump it all you right, So you know, asking questions, I find is much more powerful than necessarily going straight to the diagnosis and prescribe the solution.

Absolutely.

Just the other day I was talking to a client, a gay man who I totally love, just a beautiful man, and he was talking about when he was yeah, I think it was fourteen.

One of the older kids called my faggot, and I could feel I could hear my straight man voice going, oh man, that must have sucked.

Instead of doing that, though, I again kind of quieted, opened up and said what was that like for you?

Because I wanted to get from the inside out?

What was it like for a kid who already knows he's gay to be out, you know, and this is thirty years ago, almost forty years ago for him, you know, what was it like to be busted?

How what was it like?

And I just kept on asking questions until this straight man could feel what it was like to be a gay kid.

And the kind of the bully kid in the school is nailing you, you know, Oh you're a faggot.

I wanted to get inside of that experience because it's so foreign to me, and and he, you know, described it more and more until I had a felt experience of oh, my god, that this is what it's like for you.

And in that moment, I was closer to him than ever, even though we had such incredibly different childhoods.

And I would have never gotten there if I thought, oh, I have to make him feel better about being a gay man, or I have to say, yeah, that bully was a bastard.

You know, those initial responses they can rip me off of really finding out what it's like for them from the inside out.

So I never want to take the first bait too.

It's too seductive.

Go for the deeper stuff.

You almost answered my question.

But I think you probably have a lot more stories in there, because I was going to ask you, but I'm going to ask you.

But I guess you can bring another story.

Can you share a story story either from your protest or personal life.

We're true listening shifted an entire relationship dynamic in words, never in ways that words could never do.

Yeah, I have about six thousand stories.

I get a reference.

Okay, great, and I'll.

Make it personal.

I was talking to a particular client asking questions because they again went through something I didn't understand, and as they were telling me a story about their childhood, it again I felt penetrated, like holy crap, it was like that for you as this five year old girl, and my tears, I filled, my eyes filled up with tears, like oh my god.

And we were just quiet for a while, and she looked at me and she said thank you.

I mean, she was just so relieved that instead of me being the therapist, I just I just really got the conflict inside of her and I had no words.

It was just and right away like that, Well, it wasn't like that.

We paused for maybe thirty seconds, just looking at each other.

I think she was saying, are you for real?

Are you really dropped in that much that you could feel me?

And then all she could say was thank you, And I thought, wow, again, look at what you're teaching me about listening.

This is what you needed.

You didn't need some psychologists to tell you what was going on with you.

You needed someone to join with you in this aloneness.

Well you give me goosebumps, man, Like.

I felt exactly like what you were saying.

Right, I don't even know the situation, but I could feeling your words that you hope much you put yourself into that, like to feel like what it was like for her.

So can I tell you another story?

Yeah, go on.

Again.

I was maybe practicing for two years.

I was still quite new and an Ethiopian woman.

I was seeing her and she was telling me about her history, her childhood and maybe I don't know.

Three months into the work, she came in and she was silent, and I thought, I know how to do that.

I just sit and I'm quiet with her, and then I could feel anxiety bubbling up.

You know, ten minutes have gone by, She's just looking down at the ground, and I said something to the I fell into being a therapist, and I said something like, yeah, sometimes it's really hard to speak, and she said, you don't get it.

She didn't even look at me, she just no, you don't get it.

And so I thought, okay, I have to drop in.

I have to really drop in and get what it's like.

And I said something to the effect of yeah, and really, really, what you're hoping for is that someone could really sit with you or something.

And she said, you don't get it.

There's only darkness here, no reason to live, no reason to die, just darkness.

And I felt anger, like, hey, I'm doing the best I can over here, you know, give me a break.

And I thought, I'm missing the I'm missing the point drop in.

So I just emptied myself, you know, breathed into my belly and got I don't know what the hell's going on with this woman.

She's experienced something I have no idea about because I've never thought it's all dark, there's no reason to live or die.

And I just dropped in and suddenly I was in the I was like in this imagery where I was in the Arctic and it was night, it was just black night, and I was in it.

I was like, Holy crap.

And then I looked up and she was looking at me, and I said, I get it, and the same thing that happened with that other woman.

She stared at me and she was like staring at me, and then she softened and softened and softened and said thank you.

And the whole therapy just took a turn and we joined in this arctic nighttime of nothingness, emptiness, nothing to say, nothing to do, just alone pain.

And again the whole work changed.

And it was because she wouldn't let me off the hook.

She wouldn't let me do these therapy techniques and get away with it.

She was gonna sit there until I showed up.

And it still moves me to this day.

And this was, you know, I don't know, thirty five years ago whatever, that when I shut up and just dropped in, I was suddenly in this psychic experience that I've never experienced before.

And there was no words.

I just wasn't like, oh, you know, this is really cool what happened.

No, it was just I get it, like holy shit, and it was it was magic.

So it's those types of things that taught me shut up and listen.

It's almost like less is more yes, less is more.

Okay, So you've described listening as intimacy itself.

How can men use listening to deepen connections with their partners, children, or even colleagues.

I think initially to really desire to get to know their partner, their children, their colleagues, to shift their intention from I want you to get me and have more balance with I want to get you.

I want to get what it's like.

So the father that walks into the child who has a nightmare, do you want to get what it's like for that boy?

What do you want to yell at them?

Because you got to get up to work tomorrow morning.

Make a different choice.

So that's quite interesting.

So this is almost like could we talk?

Because I always say all the time that if you want to find your purpose, part of it is doing acts of service and you will end up finding what your purpose is.

So if you use that analogy, no, basically, if you want to improve your relationships, you should try to put yourself as much as possible into the shoes as the other person in order for you to get what it is like for them.

So then know the intimacy itself.

But it is sexual, plutonic or in terms of business relationship can improve because instead of you dropping on table, this is how I'm like, this is what I am expect x y Z.

Your first thing then is like, okay, let me find out about you and find out what it's like for you first.

Then I can navigate between the parts that give me most trouble, your affairs and traumas, and then we can work with it instead of it just coming up and blowing up.

Does that kind of makes sense?

It makes perfect sense.

Yes.

What you're reminding me of is if i'm you know, I'm a New York Italian, so anger is my second language.

I can get angry like but I hardly ever get anxious for whatever reason.

If I'm with a partner that gets anxious and doesn't get angry, if I say, God, damn it, she may go.

And if she gets anxious that mind me think what it's a waste of time.

Why are you getting anxious?

If I ask questions about why is she anxious?

What's going on?

And she can tell me a story about I don't know what her dad abandoned her, let's say.

And so when I get a little angry or frustrated, it hits that raw nerve of oh is he going?

Because that's her history.

Then if I really if I don't really get it, I'm still going to go.

Look, I'm not leaving.

Okay, just calm down with something something equally unhelpful.

But if I really get it, when she gets anxios, I can think, oh, raw nerve has been hit, she's hurting, she's scared.

What do I want to do?

Then well it's totally different.

Now now I just want to get oh, what I just did scared you?

Huh?

And that even just that, And if I'm genuine not just oh, and you have to but really, then she can drop in.

She doesn't have to protect herself.

She can go, yeah, I just got triggered, right, You get triggered, I get triggered.

They get triggered.

Now it's okay, buddy, you and me are in this together, and it's a slight turn.

But if I don't make that turn, we're fighting about she shouldn't get anxious, I shouldn't get angry.

Forever we're always writing about it as opposed to really hearing.

If I get angry, there's something right underneath.

If she gets anxious, there's something right underneath.

I'm more curious about that.

Very very interesting guys.

We can take a very very short right here to say, if this conversation is opening something up for you, take a moment right now, pause, subscribe, and share this with a man who needs it, and stay with us, because in just a moment, Randal is going to reveal why silence can heal, but also how silence can become a weapon that destroys intimacy when it's used to avoid connection.

You don't want to miss that part.

Also, don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Adriana Underscore two four to six or at The Conscious Man's Seventh podcasts and my name Todd Cave on Facebook.

Now back to Randal.

So, Randal, you've said that presence is the foundation of connection in your view, what is the difference between being present and simply being there?

Well, if someone's really simply being there, I think they're the same thing.

If someone's efforting to do something, now, they're a lot less present.

They're a lot less just there because I have an intention in their mind.

Like, for example, there have been a few times today you talk the word healing, and I have a little issue with that when it comes to psychology.

If I go to a doctor and I have a gash on my arm, I want it to heal.

It makes perfect sense.

But because psychology was born out of allopathy, out of medicine, we've incorporated a lot of their philosophy that if someone comes in and they're hurting, I have to heal them.

And what I realized was, wait a minute, you're not sick, you don't have a gash, you don't need to be healed.

You need to be less alone, you need to be heard.

So it takes all the pressure off me to find the healing agent.

So one of the chapters in my book is on anxiety.

That we've been taught anxiety bad.

You shouldn't have anxiety, and if you have it and you can't regulate it yourself, you should take pills to fix it.

Now, sometimes pills are absolutely necessary.

It's not like I'm anti pill, but I am more biased towards let's listen to the anxiety.

Let's find a way where you could sit and hear the anxiety and see if there's a message in there.

There's some wisdom in there that we haven't been able to translate yet.

So again, it's not just I'm anxious.

I've got to get rid of it, because I was taught to get rid of it.

I was taught I need to be healed around my anxiety.

Maybe I just need to listen to it in a different way.

So that intuition that you were talking about earlier that starts to speak I'm anxious because whatever.

And I can tell you a story about that if you want, very.

Ver interesting because I even remember, you know, when I was younger, a girl said to me that, you know, I need you to be to be present, you know, And I was trying to break at the time that what she meant by that or is you know what I mean, like or just being there, because like I was trying to understand if there's like a difference between like because you were saying that, if there's an intention behind it, then it makes a difference than being present, right, Because so I was trying to like get well, what would she have meant at the time when I was younger that she wanted me to be present even though I was actually there with her, you know, so it was kind of like, what does she really mean?

You know?

So were you able to go after we were able to say so what am I not doing right?

Or what do you wish I was doing differently?

Well, she had said, well, finally, I guess you don't gonna be surprised by that.

She was like, I need you to listen, listen more to me, right, So I was just trying to, you know, think like you know, for someone now, a younger no coming into listening to this podcast, I mean, I'm there, man, What do you mean that you need to be present?

You know what I mean?

Like, what does that really mean?

You know?

So it's almost like to my younger self, right toomunicated to.

Right, And it's easy for if a woman says to her man, I need you to be present, the man could hear it as a criticism I'm not doing it right?

What are you talking about?

As opposed to and that could be you know, the initial response as opposed to, really, wait, how am I not present?

What is it you're wanting me to do here that I'm missing?

Yeah?

Well I'm hearing it, you know what I mean.

Hopefully she could then say you seemed distracted or you know whatever she's missing in that contact.

Hopefully with your genuine curiosity asking a question, she'll feel like, oh, you're here now because you wanted to get what it's like for me.

But for a man to shift from what are you talking about?

I'm sitting right in front of you and go to Okay, maybe she's right.

I don't know, but I'm gonna ask a question to see what's up, what's going on for her?

Maybe she has something to teach me about myself?

Who knows?

True?

True?

So is silence always healing or can it be harmful?

How do men sometimes weaponize silence as avoidance and what does that do to intimacy?

Yeah, no doubt.

Silence can be used as the best moment of intimacy and can be used as aggression.

So a man that goes silent because the woman is doing X or Y good, that could be an aggressive fuck you to the woman on the other side.

If, for example, the scenario we just developed, if she says I need you be more present, and instead of me going with the initial what are you talking about?

I could be quiet for a second and find out where my curiosity is.

Then that quiet again, going back to what you said about intuition, something inside of me will speak to me that that initial I don't like what you just told me about I'm not present enough.

That's quiet, it's silent, another part of me can arise and hopefully with some curiosity.

So the silence can be a reverie for real connection.

But if it's filtered through resentment or anger or any kind of defensiveness, yeah, it can be a destructive.

Tool, very very destructive.

And what you were talking about, I guess you could you call it passive aggressive where like you though, you would use the silence the like I guess person because we can't really attap well, I guess you say, shouldn't be attacking women, So that would be the over form of attacking then where we just like, I won't say anything, and then we reaponize it again in the relationship, you know, right right, right.

Right, there's a couple I was seeing where the woman is.

As soon as I started seeing, she was complaining that he goes away.

And as soon as she started talking about how he goes away, he did this and he was gone a little smile on his face.

So I thought, there it is.

They're they're teaching me what this relationship is like.

So I could tell the woman I needed to be quiet for a moment.

I just want to work with him as best as you can.

Can you tell me what it was like that she just criticized you.

And it took him a while, it was, but eventually he got to all I hear is I do it wrong?

So I don't know what to do except pull away.

So his silence it wasn't to screw you, it was here we go again.

I don't know what to do, so I'm just going to shut down.

But once he got to that, he thought I could say, is that what you want to continue to do, to shut down to protect yourself?

No, of course not.

Okay, here we go and then the work.

We have a direction for that work.

Well, so, okay, you've spoken about how listening requires us to sit in the unknown.

White is not knowing so terrifying for men?

And how do we lean into it?

Again?

I think this is how we're unfortunately raised throughout different cultures.

If you're a man, if you're a grown up, you should know what's going on.

And again is great wisdom to that.

But if it becomes one hundred percent I have to know what's going on, I'm not receptive anymore.

I've shut down hearing from the outside, and like we said, earlier, hearing from the inside because I have to know it becomes a demand from the world or else I'm not worthy, I'm not a man.

And that's a total setup.

And unfortunately therapists are taught that.

Therapists are taught you need to know what's going on.

You need to assess, diagnose, and treat the diagnosis.

And so therapists when they're trained to listen the I don't know.

The insidious part of that is so that you can figure out what's going on with them VISA V diagnoses and treatment.

And as soon as you're just contracted along the lines of what's the right pathology, adjustment disorder e gives a typical Hurder line.

If you're trying to fit them into a category, listening is truncated.

You can't hear anymore.

So to be able to sit in the unknown and put those filters away, even if what they're presenting is so depressed, there's something underneath that depression.

There's a reason why I don't want to just send them out to get some SSRI, some medicine.

I want us to explore there's a reason why you're depressed.

Most likely it may just be biochemical.

Then therapy is not that helpful.

But by and large, something happened to you that you shut down, shut down your liveness.

Let's go after that, and that demands that I'm able to sit in the unknown for an extended period of time until I know, until I get it.

But it's a felt experience of getting It's not let's see, father was an alcoholic, therefore they're going to be codependent, and so it's an active courage to me to sit in the unknown until I have a different intuitive sense.

It's very interesting what you shared because it was almost like if you were seeing even though your conscious mind may not know, your feeling mind is learning what is going on.

So you're sort of like using a different sense.

I guess you can say yes where you may not know, okay, like you said this particular box X y Z, but you're like, okay, let me feel this person's experience.

Then I can get oh, okay, this is where this is coming from.

This is what you're struggling with, and then the intuition is like, ah, here is the solution.

But you got that from feeling the experience by basically going into the unknown just not knowing.

Like so like when when you first started to develop this, how did you feel, because obviously, you know, as men, we're really sort of like we have to know because that's just a round that our world works in as men.

How did you feel then in that state where it just I don't know.

They literally is like I don't have a crew mate me, but I'm still here.

How were you able to deal with that?

Because it's God, it's scary as a man to just not know.

That's right, It's scary.

That's why when men are able to do it, I think it's an act of courage.

And the earlier story I told about that woman who went through this horror show, the fact was I had no idea what was going on.

This was way above my pig grain.

I could have pretended like I did like all of her previous therapists.

But the magic that happened between me and this woman was I have no idea what was like growing up in that crazy, sadistic family, and I want to know.

My desire to know was more important to me than looking good.

So I'm willing to bumble and stumble.

I'm willing to be.

One of the chapters in the book is on humility because therapists, parents, partners, we need to get We don't know that.

Neuroscience tells us our perceptual field is so profoundly limited.

The sun looks white, I'm sorry, the sun looks yellow.

It's actually white.

You know it's yellow because it comes through the atmosphere, so all stars are white, but we think it's yellow.

That little metaphor a fact, rather tells us anytime we think we know what's going on, we're probably deluding ourselves.

If I could be humble, so even when I asked, like this woman that I saw years ago, even when I had an insight, I would say it through humility, knowing I still don't know what's going on, I would say, so when your father did that, did it make you like this?

It wouldn't be Oh, so your father did that and then you felt like that, It wouldn't be a statement would be I'm still tiptoeing around trying to feel what it was really like for you.

So I'll ask the speaker, can hear that I'm approaching this with humility?

In other words, I'm embracing that I don't know.

That encourages them to step forth more and educate me about what it's like for them instead of no, that's not what it was like for me, instead of them having to correct me because I speak with authority.

So now it's a struggle there, it's a collaboration.

We're both trying to walk this twisty turney path to find out what's true for them.

Very very powerful, very powerful.

So many men carry anger they don't know how to express.

How does listening both to themselves and others transform that anger instead of suppressing it?

Another good question.

I'm a big fan of not suppressing anger.

And you know, coming up in school in the eighties and nineties, it was all about catharsis, expressing feeling, expressing anger, so a lot of people were beating pillows.

And now the emphstis is all about regulation.

How to regulate emotions affect my bias.

As you probably can guess from our discussion, is I if I get and I do get angry easily.

It comes very quickly.

Especially with computers.

I always ask first, I had to register, Okay, there's anger, what's right underneath it?

Anger is almost always a secondary emotion.

There's almost always something underneath it.

And for example, for myself, when I get anger at computer because it's not doing what I'm telling it to do.

Just you know, two degrees shift is Oh, I feel powerless, I feel stupid.

I don't know how to do this computer thing.

There's a vulnerability.

So my anger comes up like that because I was taught don't be vulnerable, handle this.

But when I can drop into I don't know what's going on, and as my partner taught me, come back to it later, push the computer away, walk away.

Ten minutes later, it's like, oh, right, this and then I'm fine.

So to be able to register anger as there's something there's a probably a vulnerable feeling right underneath that that I'm protecting myself from experiencing, then it's anger is protective?

What's it protecting?

And then it takes what would you say that under that layer?

Would you say that under that layer?

Then is based off fear?

I think oftentimes anger is a cover for fear.

Yes, I think more generally I would say it's a cover for some vulnerability that someone hasn't been able to find a way to hold.

Yet they're not quiet, So it's almost like your first emotion is almost like a front for a secondary emotion or feeling and then it could be a third one under there.

So it's almost like if the first reaction or emotion or expression is really the fake one, it's not even the underbelly of what is really bothering you.

That's right, It's a cover, and we men easily get seduced by that cover.

Why are you angry because you did that thing?

Okay?

And what happened to you when you did that thing?

That's a stupid question, you know.

They just get locked into the anger, It's true.

And the sad part about that is they don't know that they're nailing the coffin even more to their alone.

This that the anger is pushing everybody away and they're anchoring their aloneness.

Yeah, yeah, because yeah, because men, we struggle a lot when we get angry to really like control it and really like, you know, I'll comize it into something else.

Right, So yeah, this is interesting because I never thought of it like that, where your anger is actually a mask for a secondary or maybe even a third feeling or belief yes about yourself?

Right?

Right?

Right?

Right?

So you've worked as a counselor, father, and partner.

What's one lesson about listening?

You've learned the hard way, not from books, but from your own mistakes.

I never make mistakes.

I love the attack.

I think all the things we've talked about today is when I don't really listen to other or myself, it always gets worse.

It just I or the other person will double down on, for example, anger or aloneness or whatever it is.

So I've learned innumerable times that when I'm not really listening to self or other, I'm exacerbating whatever the issues I'm making.

It So even at my ripe old age, I still get tripped up.

I'll still pigeonhole myself into this place that's reminiscent of when I was, you know, sixteen years old, that that old historical family of origin trauma pull will pull me back in and it will still take me out of going what am I doing?

I fell that same place again, and then it's easy, it's easier to step out, to not be trapped in the old trap.

Yeah, very very very very interesting because these we create a lot of patterns, and these patterns tend to repeat themselves, and it takes like extreme levels of courage and also like knowing of yourself to realize, on mate, I'm doing that thing again and I want to break that pattern, right, And that's really real.

Courage comes into play to be able to break that pattern.

You know that's right because we're not relying on what we've relied on our whole life.

We're opening up, like your questions about the unknown or vulnerability, we're opening up to those fields that we were taught that's dangerous.

You don't go there, that's a setup.

And where even though we've been so programmed to believe that, we hit in that direction anyway, there's so much good juju in there.

We have like that good juju, but we have.

To be courageous enough to test the limits of it, to step into it a little bit, to feel it.

And then, like you were asking earlier, we learned to be comfortable in the unknown.

That's no, it's not so.

Earlier in this conversation you had made a reference in terms of parenting Bosters and stuff.

So in your experience, how does deep listening reshape parenting and what do children really need to feel seen and safe?

Great question I'm going to answer with the story.

So I have now Now you have to understand the context is these boys were born, I was poor, I had to quick grad school.

It was a mess, and I still regret.

I was angry sometimes that I didn't warrant anger with my kids.

So I came them from work one day and I had this little feathered stained glass over the stereo cabinet.

And I walked in and the kids were in the family room, my twin boys.

They were maybe I don't know, eight years old or something, and the stained glass, the feather glass, was broken, and right away I could feel the anger, like what the and I said, and I looked at their faces and they were like, oh, Papa's you know this ain't going to go well?

And I thought, what am I doing?

So I said, baby, what happened to you guys?

Papa?

We were playing with the ball.

We know we're not supposed to play with the ball in the house, but we were playing with the ball in the house and I threw it over Jesse's head and Jesse's butt hit the glass and it broke.

And I could feel how scared they were of my potential anger, and I hated that feeling, so just feeling my filter, it shifted and it was, oh, so it's Jesse's butt that broke the glass, so we should all be angry at jess butt.

Huh, And they laughed and I laughed, and then we talked about Okay, so you know you shouldn't have played with the ball in the house.

So what do you think we should do?

They said, well, we should fix the glass.

You guys, that's awesome.

That's such a grown up thing to say.

How do you fix it?

Well, you don't know, Papa.

So I said, I'll make you a deal.

I'll get it fixed and you guys pay for it.

Yeah, that's a good idea, let's wear.

And I was a millimeter away from hurting them all the more when they were already scared of me.

And thank god I caught it, because they can, they and I can still talk about Remember Jesse's butt broke the glass.

You know, they're forty three years old.

Now we could still joke about it because I didn't make a very common mistake of did I not tell you not to play with the ball?

Now this is what happens.

And they learned shut down, pull away from Papa, don't bring fear.

Just oh, just get over this as quickly as possible.

Wow, that is absolutely so.

I mean, so you you've been kind of like very much in tune with this sort of they have been from even when you had kids and stuff, which is quite remarkable to have that sort of like awareness, because the awareness you're talking about doesn't come till you get later in your life when you've had a lot of trauma pated suffering.

But I said earlier that listening is your superport and you said, well, well, it's not really my superpower.

But I'm starting to think, actually, you're playing yourself out here a bit like listening like it is really your superpower.

Mate.

It's really interesting you said that because a number of people have said that's my superpower, and I was like, I'll take that.

I'm going to a cape that is a big l on it listening.

Wow.

So but don't idealize this.

There are many times I blew it with my kids that I would with anger and then regret it.

But yeah, I know, I know.

But the thing is is that I'll be honestly, when it looks back at even like my past fair relationships.

I'm in my forties now, I never had this level of understanding gnosis to be able to even diffuse the situation.

Most the situation turns south, it just got worse now I have an ability to at least salvage the situation most of the time.

I mean, sometimes I can still get angry or say things, but for the most part, now I'm much much better at sort of like taking that deep breath and pausing first thinking about how I'm going to respond, because I know that right now is a choice on where I go.

Yes, but you're talking about this thing.

I never even had a concept of even taking a deep breath in my twenties or thirties for that matter.

Right, So this is some good stuff you're hearing.

Here, And I love what you just said, because you know, somebody wrote a book a long time ago called the Body Speaks its Mind, and so that's my anchor.

I'll feel a contraction in my body if I'm not present.

If I'm really quiet, my body's totally open.

So that's a clue.

When I don't breathe pass my solar plexus into my belly, I know I'm off a little bit.

So shut up, Randall, take a breath, Feel your breath in your body.

Is there any contraction?

No, I'm good.

Now, I'm here, and a second ago it looked like I was here.

If I can fake it maybe that I wasn't really and you can pick it up.

The other can pick it up.

So, like I said earlier, in my office, I'm constantly breathing through my solar plexus and just feeling my breath, feeling my body expansive.

So I don't have to do anything out of anxiety or fear or because I'm the authority.

I can just be receptive.

But if my body's tight, if I'm not breathing, I don't care what I think I'm doing.

I'm not listening all the way right.

So let's talk a little bit about receptivity.

So you've described the importance of receptivity in partnerships.

What happens to a marriage or a long term relationship when one partner refuses to listen, usually.

They break up.

But in therapy, to me, that would be the work because because and this oftentimes happens along gender lines, where the woman is complaining, you're not here, you don't listen, whatever, and the man feels like, oh yeah, yeah, leave me alone.

And ostensibly it looks like the work is with the woman because she's angry or whatever.

But my bias is, yeah, the work is over there, but the primary work is, buddy, where are you going?

She's trying to tell you something and you're gone.

You're not present.

You're either like that client I told about, you know, or I can feel they're tight their contraction in their body.

And so it looks like, because she's making all the noise, she's the problem, but at least equally so the problem is he's shut down and she's knocking on the door, listen to me, hear me, get me, and he's unable to do it.

So for me for that man to be receptive, to open and really hear what she's saying.

Again, like we mentioned before, it's a profound act of courage because he finds such protection and there she goes again blah blah blah, and he's judging her quietly.

He's doing all kinds of things.

What he doesn't realize is all of this is a self protection and oftentimes he doesn't even know what he's protecting.

It's just so automatic pilot.

So for me to work there and help him drop into what's it like for you that she's going on about how you're failing her, they'll be like you said, the first level, in the second level, in the third level, down to one of the time, some vulnerability that very frequently, if not all the time, trigger some early childhood trauma or pattern that hurt him, and he learned turned it off, just shut it down.

Yeah, my guy tapped out, as the would saying in modern language, he tapped out right right exactly So in workplace, leaders often think listening is weakness.

How do you coach men in business to use listening as power rather than passivity?

If if the he's the boss and he wants performance out of his people, if he doesn't listen, they're going to feel isolated from him, isolated from the goal of the company, and they'll progressively shut down.

Even if he has an agenda about how he wants this employee to work.

If he listens first and holding kind of in his back pocket.

But I need you to up your game along these lines that I almost guarantee you that employee, if they feel hurt and listen to first, they'll be much more agreeable to the notion of oh, I need to up my game in this in this area.

Because my boss is a good guy.

He wants what's best for me.

I want what's best for the business.

Now we're in a relationship but if all he does is point out you're screwing up, you're coming in late.

I don't know whatever the complaint is.

Now they're like that, so you can't expect them to give all of that, all that they have for the business because they've got to protect themselves from this whatever mean withdrawn judgmental boss, So take an extra three minutes and listen before you go with your agenda.

And now, very interesting.

Coaching is such a big thing here in the States.

Now, that's what coaches often do is they try to tell bosses, slow down, what was going on for the employee?

How can you show up first for them?

And I think it's a really good thing, even though it goes against the grain.

Very much so, very much so because Mike old Boss in England, he didn't really do much listening.

He was just about you know what I mean.

He was like the hammer mount.

In fact, we used to have a nickname for him.

We used to call him the Ayatollah because it was literally by decree, right like this is how it is, guys.

Boom boom boom, you put up or shut up?

That was it, so you know, we get We used to we used to call him the Ayatollah, and we used to hate working for him, you know, and even like when he would give you feedback, I mean feedback always felt more like criticism more so than what it's supposed to be feedback because he would never actually really listen to you.

It was just about targets and numbers and stuff.

And I get that that was our job in terms of like quality assurance, but there was more decrees and telling us what to do than actually listening to us.

So yeah, a lot of us, really, I would say, hated working for him, to be honest with you.

And that's got to bring the company down a level because you're not that engaged, not that committed to the company, right.

No, there was no emotion.

You wouldn't want to work like extra because like I remember, there were times when I actually went above them beyond my job and work over unpaid over time because I wanted to get stuff done, and it was like no recognition of even like what I did.

But all I can get is all the criticism about the things that I didn't do right, when it was like there's no actual appreciation for the things that I did do right, which is what we used to call him the atala, you know, like.

You were saying earlier, if we if we as man as boys, are taught that that's what a man is.

He knows what he wants, he gets other people to do it, and if you're not doing it, he's gonna tell you about it.

If that's what it to be a man, we're lost and we're totally alone.

He's alone.

You're alone as the employee because you hate him, you don't want to be even to be around him, and there's no joy in the workplace, and that's going to affect everybody and whatever the product is in the business.

As a fact, there was literally no joy in the workplace at all.

There is always this deep pressure dealing with him and him dealing with you and stuff like I can attest what you're saying is true.

Yeah, So in therapy culture, people are often encouraged to talk it out.

Do you think modern psychology has overemphasized talking and underemphasized listening.

Yes, yes, I did think you were just going to say that.

You didn't think I was going to say that.

I did think you were going to say that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we're totally off balance.

And what's painful for me is people go to therapy to be heard, and if the therapist isn't able to really drop in, but rather they feel like a pressure to be the authority, to be the healer, then the whole purpose is kind of undermined.

They don't get no first and foremost, I want to know what it's like for you on the inside.

Then we could talk about strategies, advice, things like that, but that's what everybody's aching for.

And so again, when I consult with therapist, I can't tell you how many times I'll tell them stop trying.

Stop trying for a moment, what is that that client is trying to communicate to you, Stop trying to fix them, heal them, stop talking, and essentially ask questions.

Shut up and ask questions until you have that moment of oh, oh that's what it's like.

Then with humility, say so, so, given that, do you think it would be helpful to talk to your husband about that?

But as like that, not like I'm the authority, because they'll shut down again.

Maybe maybe just you know, a half inch, But so yes, I think as much as therapy is supposed to be about listening, we're actually taught to be the authority.

We're actually taught to be the doctor and know what's going on and fix it.

And I think that rips off the entire intent.

Very interesting, and I wonder if this is why a lot of people I've heard I should say that people say that most of the time you go to therapists and nothing changes, you get no help.

Is just like a waste of money.

Yep.

And I guess this is the reason why, because there's no real like listening to find out where's the person coming from.

It is just trying to put people in a box and diagnose, Okay, you've got this condition that bit bipolar, this next, SSRI is this next?

But yes, you know what I mean.

It's almost like they're you said, the authority, so it's like you have to know.

But it's kind of I guess it goes against all logic where you're actually saying openly, I actually don't know.

But that is actually how I help you by being in the space where you're communicating, I really don't know what's bothering you, So let me let me find out what's really bothering you.

Right, because I really want to find out.

I really want to know what it's like for you over there.

That's magic and I'm sure you've experienced it, friends, partners, when there's a moment where you get, oh, you really want to know what's going on underneath everything?

Wow?

People love that, Yeah, they do.

So before we keep before we keep going, let's take a deep breath together.

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You'll want to hear this.

So you've listened to thousands of stories over your career, is there still a kind of listening you resist?

Whether it's the certain people or even parts of yourself?

Honestly, I think the answer is no.

I think there's lots of times I'm not listening with the depth I could because I'm distracted, or I'm stressed, or you know, momentary things.

Well, I'll tell you another story.

Maybe twenty five years ago, I was working with someone who had been busted twice on felony accounts.

Of rape, and he was a serial rapist.

He would stalk women in rapist And when he sat down and started telling me a story, I just wanted to punch him in the face.

My anger was, you're the kind of bastard I want dead.

I mean, I had such a reaction, and I thought, this reaction makes perfect sense to me.

I don't know that I want to work with you.

And he was honest enough to say, look, the only reason i'm here is I have two strikes against me.

If I get popped again, I'm gone for life.

Three counts and you're out.

And so I thought, okay, I again, I don't know how to work with this guy because I just want him dead.

And then we got into his childhood.

How he remembers as a three year old no scratch.

As a five year old, his mom drove him to an orphanage, put him on the stoop, rang the doorbell, ran into the car, and drove away, and he was like, and the orphanage opened up the door and he lived in the orphanage, you know, for the rest of his childhood.

That cracked me open.

I still wanted to kill him of being a rapist, But what I got was there may be a reason why he wants to abuse women.

He wants to have power over them.

And as disgusting as his acts were, I could feel him at a level that I would have never been able to feel him if I hadn't dropped underneath my reactivity.

So it was very difficult for me to drop in and empathize with this guy who I hated what he did.

But it was also magical for me to get Oh, I could have this reaction of if you ever, you know, come near a woman, I know I will do everything I can to hunt you down.

Was like, ah, but equally have oh, my god, what you went through.

Holy crap.

And because of that, he progressively lost his desire to have power over women.

In that way, he could feel how hurt and alone he was, and he started to shift.

So it taught me so much of there's justification for my reactivity, but it's only a part of the story.

There's still a brother in there who's suffering, has no idea how to get out of it's only acting out And that stretched me beyond wow.

And you know what, what you're seeing confirms the I guess the scene hurt people, hurt other people, Yes, and it claim in you.

Seeing that, I actually had like a bit of a reflect moment where I was like, Okay, so people that do a lot of bad things in the world today, similar to what you're talking about, all of them had to have been hurt as children and they just don't have any way to express or to tell or share that hurt with anybody that they can get past it.

But instead they just hurt other people because it's like their way to get back at the person that hurt them, or blame themselves, or to hurt themselves because they feel guilty.

And it made me think like wow, like it's true.

Everyone's got a past and it all comes from my childhood.

And it would be easy for us to criticize him and say what a terrible person he is for raping earls, but at the same time, that came from a deep trauma that he had that he just didn't know how to manage.

Just kind of that you can have these two It's almost like cognitive disonance.

You have to thoughts and feelings that co exist at the same time, which is kind of like wow, in one respect, you would want to hunt him down, but then another respect, you're like shh.

I mean he was really hurt, so this is why he hurts people.

So if he can overcome that trauma, well that means he would start hurting people, right.

Well, that's the hope.

I mean, this is where embracing I don't know, I'm in the unknown is important.

Yeah, because maybe if we don't go into that vulnerability, he won't want to hurt people anymore.

Maybe not.

I really don't know.

All I know is this is what I have to offer, and we'll try to see if it.

If you can drop into your vulnerability and you have these aggressive urges, quiet down.

But I have to go into those situations with humility because if I go in with confidence, Oh, I know what's going on.

You got hurt as a kid, I'll feel them step away a little bit because I'm pretending like I know.

No, I don't.

Let me ask a few questions and we'll travel this path together.

Okay.

Some people fear of being fully heard because they're afraid of being exposed.

Have you ever seen listening and covered truths people weren't ready to face.

Yeah.

Absolutely, Because we have no faith or very little faith that other people really want to hear us.

So there's not much faith that if I open up an act of courage and offer a vulnerability.

We've been taught through our lives, especially men, but women too, that it's just going to back.

We're going to get hurt all the more so Again hearkening back to the woman I spoke about in the beginning, she knew she had learned through parents' horrible neighbors that hurt her, therapists that couldn't listen.

She got, I'm not going to be heard.

It's not going to happen.

And then when we met and I got that I don't understand that, I just want to listen.

Everything changed for her because all that programming, she was still What I love about this is our longing to be heard.

No matter how badly we've been abused, we never can fully extinguish our longing to be heard.

We'll try and try throughout our life, maybe even in the wrong way.

Like even when the man gets angry, there's a part of him aching to be heard.

He's just going out of backwards.

So if I can hold we're all longing to be heard again, everything quiets down.

So their fear of being exposed is based on whenever they've done in the past, they've gotten hurt, so exposure means more pain.

If we can have a different level of relationship where exposure means you love me, you get me, you want to be with me, you're intrigued by me, you want to show up and have a real connection with me around where I hurt or I'm scared or whatever.

That changes one's world as best as I.

Can tell, Yeah, definitely.

So you've described receptivity as a door with collective healing.

How can individual listening ripple all word into societal or even global change.

I'm sorry that answer is very short for me.

Shut up and listen.

When you have an urge to speak or to interrupt, regulate that a little bit.

Ask yourself, what are they really trying to say?

It's in my world, it's transformative, whether it's with my children, clients, my partner, my friends.

I have a friend who's eighty eight years old, and the other day at lunch, we've known each other for twenty five years.

He said, you know, whenever we go out to lunch, I'm always surprised how much I talk.

Because he's been a therapist for a thousand years.

He said, I'm so used to being the one who listens.

But when I'm with you, something I haven't even tracked that you asked me questions.

I trust without even thinking about it.

You really want to hear from me.

So I found myself talking more than I talk with anybody else.

That went right through my sternam into my heart of ah that that feels.

That feels really good.

So I think we're all aching for that definitely.

And from this conversation, I am going to because I started to do this, but I'm gonna make an active point in my life with business, relationships, friendships to listen more because I've learned a ton from this conversation today and I'm going to apply it in my life in all matters like I said, relationship, business, and friendships, because this conversation has really made me see that it is like the superpower that I need to incorporate into myself to get to the next level.

Because it's it's really the way the stories you've shared today have really resonated with me on a very very deep level.

So we can get you, we can get you out on this one.

So if every man on earth practiced listening in the raw for just one week, what would change first in our culture.

Can it change the question if everyone listened to the raw ongoing it's the end of therapy.

You'd be out of a job, out of a job.

I don't I don't think if people really dropped in and listened in the raw, I don't think you're going to do it for a week.

It's to me, it's it's it's the most heartfelt connection I've ever experienced.

That if you do it for a week, you're going to want to do it for two weeks, and five weeks, and three years and ten years because that level of intimacy and real connection, at least my bias is it's the best thing in the world.

So it please definitely, Randa, I tell you if you've really onely things like I have realized with this podcast is that I have asked changed as a person.

I have grown a lot, And I knew before this conversation that I would get a lot of value and my listeners would get a lot of value, and certainly might Again I have to thank my assistant.

She is the one that put your name across for me to look at, and I really trust her in terms of the people that she picks and she makes good cases for people, and then when they look at it through her lens then I'm like, oh, yeah, this makes sense.

So I just want to thank her and we thank you as well.

Yeah, so we're being said.

With that being said, Randall, tell the lovely people at the Conscious Man seven where they can find you, what work, if they want to work with you, how they can do that.

And the book you want to plug on all that great stuff, Well.

They can just look me up on Google and the book is on Amazon, and if they read it, I'd love to hear what they think of it.

And I also want to comind us of the name of the book again.

Please listening in the raw coming home to receptivity, I want to thank you.

You're a rare individual.

I could see even as we're talking.

I could see you reading yourself, seeing where you were closed, where you're open, and even the questions that you brought, especially the questions that you brought after the initial question.

I could feel your integrity, your real desire to get at what's true.

And it wasn't so much I want to look good.

It was I want to get what's going on here.

So I really appreciate that in a human and in a man.

So it was a pleasure talking to you.

Thank you, Randal, Well, you really touched me with your cutting words, because genuinely, my mission here is to try to add as much value to people as I can on a mission to help touch, move and inspire people to you know, pick up their cross, to duet to them all to their old selves, to confront their fears and traumas and to bring about that shift right.

And you know, I trusted last year when the voice said to me do podcasts and I said okay.

And I didn't have any idea that my show were developed like this because one day I just didn't worry because one of the things was but where am I going to find guests?

And now I don't actively like look for guests, like yes, always turn up and you know what I mean, Like people reach out to me on Instagram or email, or they apply to work with me in a forum and stuff like that.

And I was very fortunate it where this lady asked me if I wanted to be featured in their newsletter and I said okay.

So again I just trusted, and you know, I've grown a lot.

So I just want to say to people like you know, listen to that inner voice.

Trust it.

It takes care of things in the background.

And I've really really enjoyed this conversation, you know.

So it's been very It's been very educational for me as a person and made me analyze like things about myself and my journey and stuff.

And I get I honestly, the podcast has made me grow as a person in ways that I could never have imagined them.

I just thank all the people that listen and help me out, my team, my assistant, and want to give real credit for because without a good team, honestly, the podcast won't be going to be what it is now, you know so I am very grateful for them, because there's a lot of work that goes on behind these scenes that people may not know about.

But you know, I'm really I really love this conversation today.

You know.

Well, I'm sorry to say I have to compliment you again, and I want listeners to hear that you had you listened and you had some intuitive voice that say do a podcast.

It throws you right into the unknown.

Well, I don't know how to do that.

Will I ever get guessed?

You know?

Anxiety comes up, fears, but you stay true to that intuitive voice, and like Kevin Cosner said in Field of Dreams, if you build it, they will come.

But you had to face that fear of I don't know how to do this, and you stayed with it anyway, and now here you are doing this great podcast because you were courageous enough and willing to experience that vulnerability of I don't know how to do this and go forward step by step anyway, and now here you are doing these great podcasts.

So good for you, man.

If your listeners enjoyed this.

On November sixth, I'm being interviewed at CIIS, which is a graduate school in San Francisco, and DaVita, my partner, will be interviewing me on November sixth about the book.

So we'll go more in depth, chapter by chapter about what the book's about and then do Q and A.

And it will be live streams so people can just tune in on the link and it's free, so people could just check it out if they want.

Thank you, random, Thank you you really touch me man, honestly we could so guys.

You know, Randal just shared a fantastic and motive information and one of the things that you really touched on is that things are in our past.

No, one of the things in our past that affects you is that you're not really in shape.

So I help spiritually incline people burn fat and build muscle.

So if you would like to go on an epic fitness journey, you would like to help overcome some of your deep fears of how you may look and overcome self sabotage and stuff like that, hit me up on my Instagram at Adriana Underscore two four to six or my name Todd Cave on Facebook.

And let's say if you're a good fit for the Compound Body Training Army, because I will help you to overcome all of these things.

And I've said before I help spiritually incline people, burn fat and build muscle.

So if you'd like to have conversations like this with me, one on one and on the inside, you know better find me all my socials and also if you would like to ask some also help to remove some fears and traumas.

I can also help you to do that by help you to get some magic mushrooms and people that have PTSD and stuff like that.

This is a great modality that will help you to do that.

So again, if you would like to get yourself some magic mushrooms, hit me up on my Instagram at Adriano Underscore two four six or my name Todd Cave on Facebook.

And if you would like to support this podcast, you can do that by visiting our merch store.

We have some cool tank tops, Herdies shirts and sweats.

Link will be in the description of this podcast and I have on one of those shirts today.

It is called truth Isn't Learned, Truth is realized.

There it is.

So guys, if you would like to be part of the Conscious Man's seven crew and be part of this movement that we're forming, visit our merch store because you also represent visually in the world.

And also you will help us with things like editing and you know, findance and greate guests like Randall to come on the show.

And also, guys, if none of those things resonate with you, but you will still like to support the podcast and you don't really like ads in the podcast, you can also visit our Patreon or our locals community and you get perks like says to me one on one early releases before it comes up to the public, and you will also get these shows add free so link will be in the description of this podcast our Patreon or locals linked there.

So, guys, if Randal's words moved you, don't just keep listening, practice them tonight in your very next conversation.

Try listening without agenda, without fixing, without defending, see what happens, and then share this podcast with someone you believe deserves to be truly heard.

That's how we seed healing, one raw moment of presence at a time.

This has been another episode of the conscious Man seven podcasts where we go deep into the stories, teachings and modalities to touch, move and inspire you to go deep into yourself to make the changes you know that you must make, and from today's conversation, listening is definitely one of those.

Randal, many thanks for being a guest on the Conscious Man seven podcast.

This has been a truly, truly awesome and I'm want to use the word epic conversation.

Thanks.

You've really made me take a step back and look at myself because I was doing this listening thing, but this is like a whole different level that I can go to.

So just want to thank you for being you and sharing your knowledge with us today and I honestly think that people are going to get great value from this conversation.

That sounds like music to my ears.

Thank you appreciate it.

You're very welcome.

So guys, until the next time, don't forget to keep smiling, keep shining, and keep being the change you want to see.

Speak to you soon.

Cheers and the Master