Dive into the pulse of Bill's Football with Turf to Tape, where veterans, sideline reporters Sal Capaccio, and film room guru Eric Turner deliver a one of a kind podcast experience, combining sounds, unparalleled access to players and coaches with Eric's razor sharp film breakdowns.

The show bridges the gap between casual fans and hardcore enthusiasts.

This is Turf to Tape.

This is Turf to Tape, presented by thin Man Brewery.

I'm your host, Eric Turner, as always, joined by Sal Capacha Sal and for a lot of people, including myself.

It was a snow day today, so you know, I had to do some snow cleaning out front.

But uh, I was Western New York.

Coll's Buffalo.

Did you guys get We got about a foot in upstate New York.

Would you guys get in Western New York?

Yeah?

I mean, you know, it's one of those situations where there's a huge storm and the Buffalo area actually gets less than most of the other parts of the East, But we're so known for snow that everyone kind of probably assumes that Buffalo got this tons of snow.

We got kind of a normal amount, maybe about a foot.

You're right somewhere in there, I would guess.

But man, the rest of like the east going east of US is getting hammered.

You go to Syracuse, New England, or like all that area down south really right southeast, yeah, is getting hammered.

So hey, this is a good lesson for you in the national media.

I know, no one cares every time you think, oh my god, there's a little bit of snow and Buffalo, check out what's going on?

How about talking about how we're not getting as much as the rest of the country in a day like today.

Yeah, my kids school was canceled yesterday, so they were preparing for it.

I didn't think we'd get this much.

I thought we'd get a dusting.

But yeah, we got up over a foot.

But it gave me some time, you know, away from work, to create something that some topics that I wanted to discuss with you.

And of course, right now, for the Buffalo Bills, they're looking for their head coach, they're looking for a lot of their staff for really in many ways, I mean, I know, we haven't technically heard who's gonna be retained, if anyone's gonna be retained or not.

But we're gonna update you on some of the coaching searches because there's a lot of updates that are coming in by the moment.

You know, whether it's McDaniel, you know, pulling out a couple of days ago from the search, the Buffalo search, or maybe it's not pulling out of this search, but right now he's kind of it seems like he's headed west, but we still I won't know about that quite yet.

Grant Udinsky was just he took his name out of the running for the head coaching job with Cleveland.

We're gonna talk day well, we're gonna talk Philip Rivers with Drawing.

So we're gonna cover a bunch of these coaching candidates.

So sell, let's start off with the fact that during these interviews, Josh Allen is sitting in on the interviews.

I want to get your thoughts and opinions on that, the positives the negatives behind him being involved in this hiring process.

So I'm gonna say the same thing about Josh that I said even before Sean mcgrumott was fired, to be consistent here and not try to sound like I don't want anybody to think, Oh, you're just saying that because it's the Bills in Josh.

When John Harbaugh was fired and the Ravens were looking for a coach before the Bills were I absolutely said Lamar Jackson should be sitting in interviews.

He should be consulted, he should be talked to.

He's the most important person in the organization.

And no different here with Josh.

It would be negligent I think on any NFL team's part to not involve the face of the franchise MVP quarterback who's thirty years old, going to be thirty years old, making fifty five million dollars a year.

He's the most important person in your building, bar none.

That's it.

So you have to to me, allow him to get a peek into what the relationship would be, to maybe even ask questions.

What I don't know exactly what the detailed role is of Josh.

Is he asking questions?

Now?

I don't all of that.

That's for them to decide there.

It doesn't mean he's picking the coach.

Right, but he he.

The way I would describe it Eric to me is Lamar Josh Allen.

They have to be comfortable with the person that's going to be the head coach.

Yeah, and listening in and watching these interviews, whether he's asking questions or not, it's good for him to see what the plan for that coach has because, yes, he's the most important player of this franchise.

He's the main reason that they're in each and every game and in the playoffs every season, and so hearing that plan from these coaches is important.

And and the other thing about the hiring and the interviews that are conducting anyways, it's not necessarily just because hey, that person has a shot to get the job, but it's to hear ideas, it's to get intelligence, it's to get an understanding of maybe trends in the league, what they can what they think they can do with Josh Allen, what's on the horizon for offenses, what's on horizon for defenses.

It's really it's kind of like clinic like where you know, coaching clinic like where you get to hear a lot of different ideas.

And so I think that's beneficial for Josh from that sense and going forward with the bills, but also from a trust sense, you know, him being involved, Let's lets him know how transparent upfront the Brandon being the gm is the owner is and where they think that they should go franchise wise with Josh on the most important, really, the most important part of Josh Allen's career, that back half of his career where hey, we know that you know, father time's going to catch up and that athleticism is gonna drop a little bit over the years, and we need him to start making even more plays from the shoulders up and and so the ideas, the plays, the concepts, the schemes, the entire overarching theme of the Kolture bringing in is really going to be important for Josh's back half of his future.

No doubt.

And let me add this to it.

If you give Josh Allen ownership, which they're doing a part of this process, right whatever, to whatever level you give him ownership, and you know, Josh signs off, says I'm comfortable.

However that goes down, he now has a vested interest in me making at work.

If you were to pair Josh Allen with a coach that he is not on board with, then he doesn't have of course, he wants to win, but he could like, hey, I never wanted this guy and ever never worked from the beginning.

But if everyone knows, if everyone knows that Josh Allen's on board, he's a part of this process, he's, you know, a guy that endorses this person in whatever capacity he now has, I think even a little bit more.

I guess pressure would be the word to say, I need to make this work too, because I'm telling everybody that I'm okay with this right and I'm a part of this.

So I think that everybody together making that happen.

Making that work is definitely important for all of the things to get packed in, not only with the actual coaching detail of it, but in how it's perceived around the locker room in the building, with everybody knowing that this guy is someone that Josh is invested in having as our head coach here, and I think that matters.

I mean, it's the same same thing as when they bring in an offensive coach, or they bring in a coach to design the offense for Josh, that guy is gonna the first thing he's gonna ask is, Hey, what concepts do you like?

What ideas do you like?

What do you because obviously that's the accountability portion of you know, the offense and getting your quarterback involved and making him comfortable, which again is the most important thing when it comes to offenses.

So I do think it's a good idea.

I don't think there are many negatives to it.

And we're gonna talk about this later and how it's gonna be tied to a lot of the guys that are in the process.

So why wouldn't you have him involved?

So let's get to some of the news that broke over the last day or so when it comes to some of the guys that they brought in for head coaching interviews, And one of the guys that withdrew today was Philip Rivers.

With drew from the head coaching search involving the Bills, And I honestly don't know if it was them doing him a solid them sure, maybe collecting ideas, maybe him trying to get him job interviews with other teams, But either way, I never thought that he would actually be a head coach making that jump.

But I will say the reasons I like him as a coach all together sal obviously, his intelligence, his knowledge of the game, the offenses, defenses, his command, his command at the line of scrimmage was some of the best we've ever seen, and when you hear those miked up segments, they're some of the best content that you can listen to.

Yeah, he is fun, right, I mean, Philip Rivers is fun.

He's a fun idea to be around, your team, your organization.

The miked up he doesn't swear.

He's super smart, you know, and I think you know, commands a lot of respect from a lot of people.

I'm gonna say the same thing I've said since last week when his name even came out.

Originally, my thought on Philip Rivers always was this, and it doesn't change today.

In fact, I think it proves it today in a lot of ways, which is, I never thought Philip Rivers would actually become the Bills head coach.

Sure, could anything happen in this league.

All of a sudden someone wows you and oh my god, we fall in love with him.

Of course, I never thought that would be the case.

You and I both know we've been around this long enough.

We know enough people to know how this business works.

Apparently, Philip Rivers and Josh Gallen share an agent, so there's a lot of connection there.

Right, Philip Rivers wants to be a coach in the NFL Someday apparently maybe not even a head coach, but he wants to coach in the NFL.

He's moving up.

He's coaching in high school right now.

He wants to move up.

There's nothing wrong with Hey, my client, I'm the agent.

Now.

My client would really like to go through that process and understand what the interview process is like.

And in the meantime, you guys can get to know him because maybe down the road you're some sort of maybe position that you think that he'd be valuable for.

Maybe it's this year, maybe it's next year, and you can pick his brain a little bit about what he thinks about the organization and Josh and things like that.

There's a mutual benefit that goes on to having that interview.

So I don't want to say it's oh my god, they're just doing it because of a favor.

I think you can mutually benefit one another by saying, Hey, we're gonna give this guy an interview experience that is very valuable to him, and we're going to get some intel about him that we might be able to use a little bit later that maybe we actually want him on staff and find out some maybe new ideas or things that we didn't think of.

Let's move on to Brian Dable obviously immediately probably the first name that was linked, you know, to the Bills, even before officially being linked.

He's a you know, a favorite by a lot of fans.

A lot of fans you know, critique him rightfully, so because of his time in New York, I want to get your thoughts on him.

There's a lot of talk that he is the top choice, and again read that with a grain of salt, but why would you like him as a coach for the Bills?

Why would you like to bring him back to Buffalo?

And then of course some of the drawbacks of bringing a guy back that Josh Allen has worked with in the past.

So I could take every one of these coaches they've talked to, they've interviewed seven I think as of today, or like Davis, why would be the seventh?

I guess when they do.

And I could give you reasons why I think, okay, that could work and reasons why.

You know what, here's my concerns, here's Brian Dables.

There's no doubt Josh Allen was the best version of himself under Brian Dable.

That's the number one reason right there, Like Josh Allen was the best version of himself as a football player when Brian Dable was his coach, his offensive coordinator.

I don't think there's any debating that now.

He won an MVP after Brian left, But look at what they did with the offense.

The offense was the best version of itself under Josh.

I guess I would say, yes, we also know the storybook gunning, and I know we don't always get the storybook ending in Buffalo, very rarely do we.

But I mean, who doesn't at least love the fact that it would be amazing if a guy who's from this area, grew up in Buffalo is able to come back and put this team into the super Bowl.

You know, in his hometown, right his kids still live here.

He loves Buffalo, He exudes Buffalo.

He wants it for Buffalo.

He is very passionate about Buffalo.

There's no doubt that's a tertiary thing, but it is something to think about.

Okay.

My concern is the temperament for the job we saw in New York.

He can be a guy that you look and go, WHOA, that's a head coach and he's opened up the blue medical tent and he's getting in trouble and you know that doesn't sit well with me, and all those kinds of things.

Also, the record in New York, he was very good initially and then they weren't so good.

Coach of the air, right, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly.

That's right, Daniel Jones.

People have said, well, wait a minute, Daniel Jones left him and became better.

That's fine, you could use that as a mark.

But I still go back to I think what he did with Josh Trump's that to me.

So it doesn't got it right, So it doesn't really matter.

Daniel Jones get another contract.

That's exactly right, is exactly yeah.

Okay.

So the other thing I do like about Brian Dable, and I think this goes back to what I just said about the temperament and all of that.

Look, I mean, I think when you have experience, you do learn some things.

And maybe he says, hey, you know, next time around, I'm not gonna do this or that.

The other thing, Let's remember the guy did work under Bill Belichick very successfully.

He worked under Nick Saban.

Yeah.

I mean, like it's not like he's walking into this without having all these experiences from these coaches that he's worked under.

He's been every where, He's done kind of everything.

I even think he coached on the defensive side at one point early on in his career, to be honest with you, right, But anyway, the point I think the last point is, and this can be a negative for some people, his relationship with Josh.

However, if you've heard people like Brian Fitzpatrick say, Josh has to have somebody's gonna coach him hard.

He can't have his golfing buddy.

He can't have a young coach in there that's going to be overwhelmed or intimidated by coaching Josh Allen.

Josh has to be coached hard because he's still got another level to get to.

I agree with all that.

And by the way, Josh is very coachable.

No one's ever said he's not.

But I agree with all that.

I've asked a few people who've been around Josh and Brian Dable.

Okay, so does Brian Dable fall in the category of Josh's buddy or does he fall in the category of coaching Josh hard?

And every person has told me he falls in the category of coaching Josh hard.

Yes, he will love on him like he does all his players, but he he also will coach you hard.

And we know that the turning point was that twenty nineteen game for Josh against the New England Patriots when crazy again, right, So there's an example for that.

Yeah, yeah, now, And I think your points are all valid.

You know, he does coach hard.

The things that I have questions about, you know, his relationships with his players is one thing, because I think we've seen that, and how he coaches them.

My unanswered questions are having to do how does he coach the coaches?

And I think that that was some of the issues that came up also in New York is how did he treat his coaches?

Did he always thro him under the bus?

How how does he coach them?

How does he teach them to run his system?

And you heard a lot of those rumblings that he had issues with that.

The positive about him being in New York with Joe Shane is that now being can lean on Shane' say what was going on behind the scenes?

There was it all Brian Dable, what's the other side of the story, So they can fletch some of those things out as well, because he has being has that network when it comes to Brian Dable, not just in Buffalo, but his time in New York.

And so the transition as far as the offense and how the offense is going to receive Brian Dable, I think that'll be pretty easy.

You're right.

I think his best years for Josh Allen were under Brian Dabele.

And the other side of this too, not just from the Josh Allen Engle Listen, like think back to the presser with Pagoula and Bean and when Bean was talking about the transition of the offense and not investing in wide receivers, what did he say about when Brian Dable was there, that they were trying to get several wide receivers, a lot of ten personnel, a lot of you know, those spread concepts, a lot of those you know conversations that they had when it came to evolving the offense with what the defense is doing and things like that.

And so to me, it sounded like when Dabele was here, there was very good collaboration between Hey, I need this from Brian Dable and Brandon Bean giving him what he needs to operate, which led to what Josh's best year as a quarterback.

It's so funny you say that because obviously last week, leading in and after Sean mctrim has fired, then you get into the press conference.

And I felt last week, Eric that there was a clear intent during the press conference to give the message, Hey, it's not like Brandon Bean just picks players and goes tell Sean mctrim to coach Graham.

Bean listens to his coaches what they want from on the roster, and he because and obviously, you know, we all know that, as the kids say, Kean Coleman caught some strays, right, I mean we know that that's what happened.

That's why the reason why the key on Coleman thing was brought up was simply because of the overarching point that I think Terry bugol that and Brandon Bean wanted everyone to understand, which was not like Terry is just picking players and going to sego coach.

He listens to his coaches.

What do you want?

I remember, I'll tell you this the night the night the Bills drafted Josh Allen.

Okay, I don't know if I've sure ever shared the story with you.

We I'm standing with Josh reed.

I'm Channel four and Joe Shane was still the assistant GM at the Bills at the time, and we were just talking about, Hey, Josh Allen, what do you think.

There's a lot of stuff about him being accurate and all this kind of stuff.

And Joe Shane looked at us and he said, listen, he goes, we're gonna if that means we need to go get guys with bigger catch radiuses to help support him, We're gonna go do that.

We're gonna find out what he needs to help him succeed, and we're gonna get that.

And let's that's what they did.

And it didn't work out right because remember the Kelvin Benjamin and Andre Holmes, right like those guys like that.

What what they finally realized was they actually needed more of the John Browns and the Cole Beasley.

Types that can get some Robert Foster in the back half of that year.

They need to speed.

But you brought that up, so that collaboration, like that's what it was, which was he said that to us that night.

He's like, we'll get guys with big catch radiuses.

We'll get him in this league.

He'll he'll be able to throw the guys, they'll catch the ball.

We'll get him there.

We need to get him to And it was like that was a real interesting conversation to have about how this all works and it's not just we're just picking this guy in a vacum.

He's gonna throw them out there and he's gonna be really good.

And then Shane Joe Shane obviously goes to New York.

He brings Brian Dable with him because I think that that same collaboration, you know, mattered to them.

Yeah, it's just like when the Bills brought on Brian Dable, it was because of his ability to get different types of quarterbacks, you know, Jalen Hurts versus Tua and in one game, especially the National Championship, in different halves, different game plans, like his ability to script plays and offenses for different types of quarterbacks.

And when they brought him in, you know, Dann well that they had a plan for Josh Allen and honestly that plan worked out pretty good.

So again, the collaboration side of things, I think that's not talked about enough that Brian Dabele and being seemed to have or be on the same wavelength when it came to this is what I need.

These are the groceries I need in order for me to cook.

So I think that is something that's not being talked about enough and another reason why I think Brian Dabele is rumored to be the top choice because there is that network there, there is that proof of concept of hey, we can work together, and so I think that is something that makes Brian really really attractive for for the Bills and especially Josh Allen.

Yeah, for sure.

And you know, I don't know like there's there's still much of that.

Many of the same people are still in the organization, right, I mean, like, yeah, Sean McDermott has gone, and there's been a lot said about Sean and Brian's relationship.

Well, Sean mcdermot's not the head coach anymore, and but Brandon Bean, I know, there's just a wealth of amount of respect for you know, between Brandon Bean and Brian Dabele.

Terrence Gray is still an assistant GM, Brian Gain is still an assistant GM.

They've all been here before.

They're very familiar with one another.

So you know, when you dig into the weeds a little bit here, a lot of that makes sense.

But look that the Bills are going to do their due diligence.

They're gonna interview Grant Yudinski.

You're gonna interview a few other people along the way here, maybe Waite on Clint Koobiak.

But it feels to me like we can't discount Brian Dable at all until something becomes more we hear something like, oh my god, he's going to Philly to be their OC or another team or something like that.

Yeah, someone you know plucks them and takes them out of the actual search or for the head coaching position.

All right, let's move on to a guy that actually has ties to Brian Dable and this is gonna be our tapped in segment presented by finn Man Brewery Davis Webb Davis Web.

Obviously, the Broncos lost yesterday and so now the Bills can actually go ahead and interview him.

So I'm gonna get your thoughts on Davis Web.

Supposedly they're bringing him in or have brought him in this morning.

I think there was a report that it was just a virtual at this moment.

But he's also doing a second interview with the Raiders.

By the way, get your thoughts on Davis web Is he the next big coordinator head coach in this league?

Because it seems like a lot of people in the league do love this guy.

They do for sure, and just Hoby's clear on the rules.

The Bills could do an in person interview with him, but he is interviewing virtually reportedly today.

They could do an in person interview because the season's over.

Once the season's over, they can do that.

What they can't do is interview right now Clint Kubiak in any capacity because they did not already have one interview with him.

Once he gets to the conference championship, unless you already had one interview, you can't do the first interview after that.

I hope that makes sense everybody.

So there was a lot of stuff last night I had to clarify.

I reached out to a couple of people in the league to make sure what was real and what were the rules and what wasn't.

Because Clint Kubiak was not initially already interviewed by the Bills before this week, they have to wait after the Super Bowl to interview him at all.

If he had already had one interview, then he could be interviewed this week.

Now Davis Webb, on the other hand, loses his season's over, He's open to be interviewed.

Davis Webb loves Buffalo again, He's a guy that would come back to Buffalo.

Had a conversation with him last year at the Combine about how much he would love to come back to Buffalo in some capacity.

This would be the perfect opening, of course, the head coach opening, right, although I would say, is he ready for a jump like that?

I think that is a lot to ask and I would have a lot of reservations about as great as smart as he is, as well thought of as he is, the relationship that he has.

I just that's asking a lot of this guy to take that type of believe.

He hasn't even been an offensive coordinator yet, not a play caller, not even in the title yea Offen exactly.

I think he called like one preseason game and they blew out the opposing team.

But that's fair and and the other disclaimerly we should talk about with the interviews and like, yes, they're interviewing for the head coaching search, but also again, all these ideas come out in these meetings that hey, actually okay, we hired ex coach.

What about this guy as a coordinator, What about actually elevating into a coordinator position.

So I think that's the other thing to keep in mind.

There here's a super chat.

We appreciate you Lino TV joining us.

I'm not getting why you want Dable so much over the likes of McDaniel Kubiak, who offense is way better and can make him a two time MVP.

Hell give me the Jags.

Oh see, I'd not disagreeing with you.

We're saying he's a top candidate.

We're not saying he's the candidate.

We're just showing you the positives and negatives of all of these coaches.

And we'll get to those other coaches later, especially Kubiak and uh Oudinsky as well.

And we but again, we appreciate that that you know, and whatever.

I'm gonna talk about Davis Webb because a lot of people love this guy in the league.

But as you said, he's green, he's inexperienced.

The GM for the Broncos before bringing him in said he's poised beyond his years.

He's really been a coach on the field since he's been in the league, and that obviously we saw that first hand in Buffalo.

One of the main reasons he was in the QB room was his being a resource and tool for Josh.

And if you like, go back and read some of these stories again, you know, revisiting them.

It's funny how he was so important to won the Scout team, you know, and getting the defense ready against the Scout offense and running that.

But he was so important to Josh Allen because he would play different positions on the defense, the Scout defense against Josh Allen and do things that he saw on film.

He studies the opponents and he would bring that and challenge Josh in many ways on and off the field, and I thought that was really cool to see back then.

He's kind of like like that QB whisperer right where you know he helpedlast year.

You hear reports of him helping Bo Nicks eliminate some of the pre snap noise and issues that happened before and streamlining things.

He thinks.

Obviously he played in the air raid system under Brian Dable that was a big air raid system Cliff Kingsbury in college, so he knows Dabel's system in and out, and obviously Josh performed in that system really well.

So I think you have some scheme stuff you have.

He's young, so he's innovative, and he's adapting to the league and the trends and whatnot.

But his ability to communicate to any quarterback, let alone challenge Josh, I think that is also a thing.

Whether they're good friends or not.

I think he speaks the language that Josh does, and I think that'll help Josh visualize things and again streamline things for Josh when we're talking pre to post snap.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a good question that comes in right here from Pitzer.

We've gotten a lot of this.

Could web be the OC if Brian Dable is the head coach?

I do think that could be a dynamic thing naturally, could work right because again you're talking about two guys who love Buffalo, want to be here, who have worked together.

By the way, Davis Webb was there when Brian Dable was there with Josh Allen that whole quarterback room.

So yes, I do think that could be possible.

What we don't know here is if Davis Webb, let's say, doesn't get the head coaching job and the Bill say, you know what, here's Brian Dable or Grant Udinsky.

They want to bring you over as OC.

He also could say, you know what, I have a good thing here with Sean Payton and I'm learning, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Like it's so we can't just assume.

You always have to remember these people have lives and they families and moving and think about their own careers and where it could go.

It's easy to say, just go to Buffalo and be the oc OC.

He's also learning and successful right now under Sean Payton with bo Nix, right, there's nothing wrong with that.

So I don't know, and I don't want to assume any of that would be true or not true.

Although I do know that Davis web Again loves Buffalo.

He loves Josh Allen.

I know for a fact that he's said and stated that he'd come back here give it the right opportunity and role, and he hopes maybe someday that could happen.

But that being said, we don't know what is at play behind the scenes with a lot of these people.

I think that what's not being talked about enough is that I do care about, of course, and it's maybe down the Beck burner because of all the offensive stuff.

All these people were talking about who are the defensive coordinators, Like do you if you come in as Brian Dable keeping Bobby Babbitch as someone else coming in and right, like, there's a whole staff to put together here.

It's not just the offense and the play caller, because let's be honest, with Josh Allen running the engine, they'll be Okay, they might they can have different levels and get higher than they been, but you do have seventeen.

I need to know what's happening on the other side of the ball as well.

And all of these people were talking about.

These are questions the bills are asking in these interviews.

One story with Davis Webb that kind of followed him to New York from Buffalo and then obviously into Dever was that he carries this thing he calls a master file, and it's essentially a digital library of every scouting report, every play, defensive look he's encountered since college.

Imagine that library, and so he would pull from this master file by all reports to help Josh visualize how specific defensive coordinators, especially in the AFC East, kind of tended to react in certain situations and it's pretty cool to have that library, you know, carried with him.

And so he sounds like he's a you.

Know, all ball football kind of guy, which is like what we love, especially you know, film junkies.

And so I wanted to kind of highlight that or spotlight that with this clip that I got from coach Dan Casey and his Play Callers Club on social media on Twitter.

Coach at coach Dan Casey great guy to follow if you're into offensive you know, tendencies and trends.

But he did an interview with Davis Webb talking about all the different play callers he's worked under, all the different coaches and the systems that he had to learn over the years.

So I'm want to play just a couple of minute or two of this this interview here.

I'm like, in Denver, you know, has it been any different than the offices you played with Payton in Buffalo or New York?

Or is it pretty similar going to Chanpayon system?

Uh?

Well, you know, positively and negatively.

I had six offensive coordinators in my first so like playing that sucked, but coaching, you know, being around the West Coast my rookie year, my first offense, and then going to the digits of Ben macview West Coast Mike McCarthy type system, and then you go to Pat Shermer, which is a digital system just came from Minnesota to Seventh Heaven Minnesota Miracle with Stefan digs.

And then you get Jeremy Bates West Coast Shanahan family.

And then you get Adam Gates, which is more of the Peyton Manning UH philosophy of offense with a mix of the Ernhard Perkins.

And then you get to UH coach day Ball, which is New England tree.

However he's grown a bunch from it.

And then you get to go to Mike Kafkill, which is a mixture of day Ball, and he brings in a few flavors of the West Coast being with Andy Reid and and Mike's alone plays.

So luckily Shawn's Uh, you know, a West Coast guy, got brought up with John Bruden and Philly, so there was some similarities.

But again it's a new offense, is new language, and you know, I treated it like a player, to be honest with you first, because that's kind of my goal every year, is to dominate the playbook and there's nothing new as I had to talk about it every day as opposed to you know, every other sentence.

So I think, you know, it's been a nice transition.

It's a cool offense whenever you know, Drew Brees and all these records are broken because of so many great players they had on offense, defense and coaches, so they hear the history behind each play and why it's called the way it is.

Is definitely something that is enjoyable going to work every day and.

Would have see and that's and that's what I mean.

He's all ball, right, he's all ball.

Just just imagine the you know, the digital library of course, but also just his knowledge and his ability as he said, play you know, plays concepts.

Playbooks are a language, and so he's played in all these different concepts.

He knows all these different languages and how to translate him, how to teach him and make it easier for people.

I appreciate that because everyone learns differently.

That's one thing that Brian Dable, that's you know, always talked about when he came to the Bills.

It's another thing Aaron Kromer always talked about, we got to coach everyone different.

They all learn differently, they all they all play differently, and so you have to approach it differently.

He's got a lot of that and that's why I think his experience as a player in those systems, but also as a coach and how he helped Josh.

I mean, he's very attractive whether he's the head coach or the coordinator.

I mean, if he's if he's going to be a coordinator, not a head coach, he's going to be the hottest, one of the hottest coordinators you know, in the league, because he's going to really pull from that knowledge and that library on top of adding and augmenting the trends of the league.

It's it's very exciting to think about him, you know, growing as a coach and becoming a coach in this league.

Right.

Bringham be And during the press conference last Wednesday said, this isn't just a play caller job.

It's a CEO type job.

That's what he said.

So if you think of it from that aspect, one of the things you have to think about is is this person going to be a good CEO type?

Are they going to be able to delegate, are they gonna be able to oversee the entire operation.

I think sometimes we can get lost in the forest through the trees, trees and forest whatever that's saying it might be, but we can take a look and I think we do this here.

I think fans do it.

Is.

Yes, you want to get a guy in here's all right, he's running this offense and that offense, and Josh Allen and all that.

There's so much more that goes into being a head coach, right, and you know you got to make sure that the person coming in is going to be able to touch on, as you said, Eric, coaching, all the coaches and the culture building and the tentacles that go along with running an entire operation.

And the Bills are looking for someone like that.

Now.

There might be different check marks along the way of which is more important of a play caller offensive side, the relationship with the quarterback, all that, but they still have that full job somebody earlier and I don't have it right here with me.

Asked in our chat box about the locker room and players speaking out, it's gonna be tough to get a new coach on board.

No, it's not.

The players are played, players are paid to play, and they're upset because they have a relationship with this coach for nine years who was just fired.

That is very rare in this league to have a nine year one head coach for guys for nine years.

Think about the people who are you're hearing from.

Taron Johnson.

He's had one head coach, right, I mean, Dawson Knox has had one head coach, and Dean Dawkins said one head coach, Sharreavius White laughed and came back with this head coach.

So of course they're drafted.

Yes, of course, of course they're going to be the gonna They're gonna be hurting in their emotions and feelings, no doubt, and I wouldn't expect anything different.

But at the end of the day, just like almost every player has to go through in this league, at some point, they'll have a new coach and they're under contract to play for that new coach, and that'll happen.

All right, Let's move on from Davis Webb.

You talked about who's gonna how they gonna assemble the defense, but let's talk about some defensive guys.

Let's talk about Chris Shula.

Aside from the Broncos losing, the Rams also lost as well, Seahawks did a pretty good number.

Clint Kobiak in that offense did a really good number on Chris Shula's defense other rams.

But with that said, Shul is a very good coach, up and coming coach, very good defensive coordinator.

So I'm gonna get your thoughts on Chris Shula.

Personally, I do think that the Bill should lean towards offensive minded coach head coach.

But when you look at this guy's resume and how he's come up in the league and what he's done to pat his resume, it's pretty impressive.

So no doubt.

I love his demeanor.

I think he's very smart.

He's got the vey pixie dust.

Although on the other side of the ball right right out about that.

I think it's his best friend.

I think.

I know that's a big running theme this this uh, you know season when it comes to interviews, but he is very close.

I think it was his college roommate.

Yeah.

I mean, these guys again, they're just football guys, right, They sleep and drink football.

And I mean, to me, what I think about is, could you imagine a Shula coaching the Buffalo Bills, right, I mean, it'd be amazing you know, after we went through.

Mike was here a couple of years he was, Yes, I mean as a head coach, but you're right, a head coach.

Yeah, but Mike was here for sure.

He was.

And then you know, Chris Don's's grandfather, and like, could you imagine after all this and you know, the grandson of Don Shula is the head coach of the Buffalo Bills.

I just think that would be wild.

I don't.

I don't say it should be a reason you do it or don't do it.

I do.

I do think though, as of a few days ago, before the game was played on Sunday, like that was the name.

I kept saying, you know, if there's one guy that I don't think is getting enough maybe talk about here, it's probably It just felt like he wasn't getting enough talk about him.

And then they went and played the game.

I'm thinking, look, I'm not I still think he could be in the mix.

But man, if you're going off the eyes from Sunday, Clint Kubiak is the guy you're like, look at what he was.

Yeah, and uh, there haven't been any reports that the Bills even are setting up an interview with Lucy yet, but that's right.

He I think he's a guy.

Whether he gets a job this cycle or next, it's interesting to talk about because of his ability to adapt.

Like think about when Aaron Donald retired and he took over that defense and his the way he had to go about shifting his defense and that defense from one a superstar Hall of Famer and him you know, wrecking things and everyone else kind of just you know, mopping up the the leftovers to coordinating and scheming a defense that didn't just rely on one guy and relied on you know, he was he was creating, like creating plays and drawing up plays for like specific guys on defense we're talking here, and and different pass rush, uh, you know, coordination and and how to keep quarterbacks in the pocket.

Like he had a lot to do with the young players in that RAMS organization on defense, you know, tied for sacks as rookies.

And I think that you know, goes a long way.

Is it enough?

I don't know, but I just I love how tactical he is, how he's really you know, in the x'es and o's.

He obviously came up through the system coach every position on that defense.

But one cool story that came out about him was he ran a Glacier clinic years ago as a coach, and what he did is he studied every turnover in the league, specifically fumbles, and he studied every single fumble for that year I think it was twenty nineteen, and then he created five buckets for how those fumbles happened amazing, and from those five buckets he broke down the technique needed to make that happen and make the peanut punch or the run run reach work, and then he applied it.

He applied it to practice and now they started practicing that and preaching that and doing.

That every day.

And to me, again, that is that's the type of coach that I would like to see with the Bills, whether it's Curshuel or not.

But we're trying to highlight some of the good and bad and things that really are drawing these guys' names to these interviews and what you know, coaches and gms are looking at.

It's little things like that, little stories like that that show you the difference between X coach and another coach.

I think it's fascinating to me even doing this job, as long as I haven't being around football as long as I have my life in loving football as much as I do.

To really learn about some of these guys and how much they devote to their craft, it's truly incredible, right.

I mean, like we sit here as media and fans and we're such on the outside looking at Oh, this coach does this and this coach does that.

The job.

I've always try to remind people the job isn't just making decisions on a Sunday afternoon in front of seventy five thousand people and on national television.

The job is every single day, night day, everything you do, Like, well, it's someone called the radio station today, Someone called me today and said they should look at Doug flu right, Like an example, how many times have I heard Jim Kelly, Bruce Smith or defensive coordinator And I always want to say, like, you got to understand what these people do for a living as a coach.

I mean what it takes out of their lives away from their families.

Right.

Yeah, there was a time, there was a time I would tell you in my life, there was a time where I really thought about being a college football coach like I wanted.

I was coaching high school football and I'm like, you know, I think I want to be a college coach.

And then I had some friends who were coaches in college and they were literally moving cities every three years, and I'm like, I'm not doing that in my life.

There's no that is how do you do that?

Everything everything they did was devoted to just every single day as much as I LA football, coaching football all the time.

And if you don't get the results, and if if somebody else lose a job, you're out of a job.

Like sorry, like the head coach.

Right, It's just yes to your point though of what you're saying, Like that is amazing to me to go back and do that level of detail and try and really you know, hone in on the things that can be those tiny, tiny little of margins that can get you to where you need to be.

Hey, we let off this entire series and podcasts with adding context, adding context to drills you see at training camp.

That is exactly that, and that's how you do that as a coach.

And I just love that about him.

But you had mentioned, you know, coaching and changing locations every three years, possibly kind of being at the will of Hey, your head coach gets fired you're out of a job a lot of times, and one guy that just comes has come up and is getting an interview in Buffalo.

And the reason I brought him up was coordinator for the Jags.

Grand Newdinsky is because this guy, when he stopped playing football, was living in his car to go and observe practices at Baylor.

We talk all ball type of coaches.

He's it.

He was there.

He wasn't getting paid.

He knew a guy on the staff at Baylor and Brian Angelico, and they met through some clinics, and so he went there and he was just observing practice and he literally started from the bottom, networked his way up, was living out of his car.

So Mike Garafalo is stating that he's withdrawing.

Udinsky is withdrawing from the Browns head coaching search and is essentially has another contract in line with the Jags right seal, and that unless he gets a job as a head coach with the Bills.

So what are your thoughts on this wonder kid?

You see a lot of You do a lot of research on these coaches.

He's all ball.

He's a wonder kid.

It reminded me, honestly of when the Bills signed or you know, upgraded Joe Brady to offensive coordinator.

He was thought in the same way he was a wonder kid, an offensive genius.

I want to get your thoughts on Grant and his chances of becoming the head coach.

Of the Bills.

Okay, So, just like Brian Dabole, there's a lot of things I love, and there's a lot of things that maybe say, Okay, let's let's kind of dig into this and what can I concern you here?

Right, all those things we just talked about.

Loving football, I mean, being around the game, bright mind, learning from the best results, speaking for themselves.

I mean he was in Minnesota Kevin O'Connell.

Look with that year they went through all those quarterback changes and what he was able to do with Donald and who was it who came in there with Dobson or someone came in for a game or something.

I can't remember.

It was right Tobbs, I mean amazing.

Right, then he goes to Jacksonville.

Look at Trevor Lawrence and the leap that he made.

There's no doubt like this is a guy that has a mad amount of respect around the league.

I just did today, by the way, as everybody knows.

Just did an interview today with Ryan Green of ten ten XL in Jacksonville, all about Grant Yudinsky.

So that's on the WGR website and people can go back and listen to it on the app, and all that really good insight into this person.

This person, the kind of person he is, the kind of coach he is, the personality he is.

There is no doubt all of those boxes get checked right, except here's my concerns.

Has not called plays like that's a big jump if you're asking him to call plays like, yes, he's the offensive coordinator entitle, unlike Davis Webb, who is not.

But Liam Cohen called the play there, not him.

Second thing, he is just a few months older than Josh Allen.

Again, I don't want to make age a big deal about this, but I do think there's something to be said for when you have an MVP quarterback, superstar of the league, one of the best players in the entire league, someone comes in.

Is that person This isn't on Josh, by the way, Josh is coachable, okay, but there's got to be a mutual respect.

Is that person going to be overwhelmed or intimidated about coaching, Josh Allen Hard, I think that's a legitimate question we have to ask.

Yeah, And the reason I like Grant is because, like you said, the coaches he's been around, whether it's O'Connell, Matt Rule, in the different areas and facets that he worked with those coaches.

You know, he was a special assistant, you know, a guy that did a lot of side projects for Kevin O'Connell initially in Minnesota, and it ru It was like day to day stuff.

It was like, Hey, we need to script this game plan, we need to script our practic this, we need to lay out the foundation for our nutritional program, like all those little things that head coaches have to do on a day to day basis, aside from game plan stuff, aside from x's and o's.

And then as he progressed in that system with Kevin O'Connell and Minnesota, he was in the QB room much like Davis Webb we talked about him.

He was in the QB room testing Darnold, testing Daniel Jones.

When he was there, testing Josh Dobbs and doing the film work and the advanced scouting of the opponents, he would watch up the twenty games a week of the opponent and then report all of the defensive tendencies that he picked up to the quarterbacks, say hey, you need to look at this when we call this play and they're in that coverage, this is what you need to look for if the corners and off coverage, you know, throw it underneath, like little nuggets and tidbits like that.

And the reason I find that like fascinating and super important for Josh and the Bills.

As I said earlier, as Josh his athleticism erodes, Josh is gonna have to play even more so from the shoulders up.

And I want guys from the Shanahan tree, the McVeigh tree, the Kevin O'Connell tree, to come in and foster that that development, foster that QB room so that they can give him more answers.

They can help him discover more answers pre snapped to post snap because that'll help Josh process a lot quicker.

It'll it'll allow him to anticipate more.

And I think that is the type of guy I want, whether it's as an OC a QB coach, I want that program.

I want whatever they do with quarterbacks with the Rams, with Shanahan, with Kevin O'Connell, whatever they do, whatever process that is stealing signals off of film, which is not cheating, but it is part of it.

It's games, gamesmanship.

I do it all the time when I watch them.

When Sala, when Sala made that comment when he's coaching San Francisco, he made the comment about they have a legal sign stealing system in Jacksonville.

I think he was actually talking about Udinski more than he was about Liam Cohen.

He he was because Liam Cohen came over from Tampa.

He's the guys from Minnesota, which.

Is where he wants.

A couple of quick questions comments I want to address here Pitcher again, is McVeigh younger than Stafford.

No, he's three years older.

Mcveigh's forty, Stafford is thirty seven.

That being said, again, I don't want to make it about age specifically.

I do want to make it about you know, people at the same point of their lives doing these specific jobs that require a certain type of relationship, right, and you have to make sure that there's a healthy respect for that, all right, And then this one is kind of funny.

Bills Fans seven eight eighty three, So I want stable so bad.

Don't make things up.

I never said that.

I want the Bills to get the right coach.

I don't know.

I'm not in all these meetings, so I don't know where you're getting that from.

I wouldn't mind Brian Dable, I wouldn't mind great Yudinsky.

I just want the Bills to feel right about the guy they get.

So yeah, I don't know why where you got that from.

I mean, whether you're talking the young you know, Davis Webb, Grand Newdinsky, Nate Shieldhouse, who's the coordinator right from the Rams who again now they could I think he's probably locked in for the Browns job, it seems like.

But they're all, you know, thirties, early thirties, and it's yes, that's young, and yes McVeigh got that job when he was that young.

Yeah, but it's more so not just necessarily age, but the experience, all right, and we outlined the lack of experience, whether it's play design, play calling, those things.

I think the tools are there and the resources are there for those guys to succeed.

We just haven't seen the proof of concept.

We haven't seen him do it all that often, and so I think of all of the three guys that we just mentioned, whether it's Shieldhouse, Davis Webb, Udinsky, I think Odinsky, he's got, his resume is pretty freaking awesome when it comes to Yeah, he hasn't technically called plays, but he runs.

He ran practice for Liam Cohen when Liam caundn't do it, he would run practice, He would command the offense.

Did he call plays in games?

No, but he he has done a lot of things that and seen a lot of things that the head coach needs to do on a data basis, and so I think that's why he's one of my favorite coaches.

Again, I don't know if he's going to be the head coach, but between those guys, I think those three guys at the very least should be on offensive staffs calling plays next year.

The three guys you're talking about go ahead again.

Davis Webb, Shilhouse from the Rams, and then Grandededinsky.

I think either way, I think they're gonna I think in many ways could be not just head coaches in this league, within this cycle or the next cycle, but they should be calling plays on themselves in the nearest future.

Yeah, So I think when it's all said and done, the Bills coach will probably come out from one of those four guys.

Yeah, one of these four guys, excuse me, Brian Dable, Great Edinsky, Clint Kubiak, or Davis Webb.

I would put Davis Webb more towards the bottom is I think that that would be a bit of a jump that but he could certainly wile them in the interview and they could do it.

But when it's all said and done, it just feels to me like those are the four guys this is going to come down to, and they all have one specific trait their offensive minded coaches.

Yeah, I think And as much as.

Brandon Bean can say CEO type, and I agree, and I would say, you got to get a coach that's just a good coach.

It doesn't matter which side of the ball.

It feels like this is always trended towards that side of the ball.

And that's why I like when you hear Anthony Lynn coming in for an interview, Anthony Weaver as as qualified as they seem to be, and I just feel like those are assistant coaches and again maybe that those interviews were really for those positions on the staff that they need to fill out eventually, So real quick, before we get out of here.

Everyone watched the game last night.

Kubiak was balling, he was in his bag.

I'm gonna get your thoughts on Kubiak and then reiterate when the Bills can talk to this guy, that's a long ways away.

So two weeks, I mean you're waiting.

Are you waiting two weeks for Clint Kubiak?

If you wait two weeks, you better be really convinced that he might be the guy, because by then other people are taking jobs and the out you know, offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator.

But hey, if you really like him, or you just say we don't want we don't want to rush the process too much, you can respect that, and I get it.

But the reason why the Bills have to wait two weeks where you're gonna see other teams talking to Clint Kubiak, Let's remember that.

You will see he's interviewing here, he's interviewing there, but he can't interview with the Bills.

The reason is because those teams already interviewed him once, whereas the Bills did not because they did not fire their coach until after the AFC Divisional round.

If you already interviewed a guy once, you can interview him again during the super Bowl week, if they're playing in the super Bowl.

If you didn't already interview him once, you can't do the first interview at that time.

This is a question.

I don't know the answer to you.

I don't know if you do.

Can they talk?

I believe they can speak to the agent.

They can't make direct contact with him.

You can't interview him.

But I think they could at least talk to the agent to gauge the interest.

I can't see why that would not be allowed.

Yeah, and say he goes Todd Each says, so Brian Gaine worked with Gary Kuback and Houston.

I'm sure they could reach out to Gary to gauge Clint's Yes, of course, they are a different Batchannel.

It's a really good point too.

And I think, again, good job there, Todd, because relationships, connections totally matter.

Yep.

And in Kubiak, he kind of falls in line with the guy he just talked about when it comes to the Shanahan Tree McVeigh tree understanding what the QB needs and how they can help the QB.

And it just his experience with Shanahan during that Super Bowl run that they had.

It just you can't you can't put a price on that and watching Shanahan create game plans and create plays and design plays and everything that goes into that, that that system and that tree.

I I want that kind of guy for Josh on the back half of his career to help him as he ages, you know, in the Bills franchise.

So we appreciate everyone joining us live.

You know, thanks uh for joining us.

Hit that like button, thanks for le enoving us comments.

The live chat was very good today.

We have a lot of live viewers.

Thank you to everyone for joining us for this episode of term the tape.

So sal set up the rest of the week.

What you got going on?

Let everyone know, you know when your shows are, when your articles are coming out.

Now that we're in the off season, what's what's that?

Cadence and Temple like yeah for sure and real quick, real good point here.

Don't forget Josh Allen and uh Sam Donald good buddies, So forget about that, and thank you Charles.

That goes to two coaches that's good Beski and Y Andwdinsky.

They both worked with Sam Donald so very good.

Yeah, Udinsky was in Carolina and when Matt Ruhl was there, Uh, he was on that staff doing all the same things, but in Carolina with Sam Donald.

Yeah for sure.

So I am actually hosting the Extra Point Show all this week ten to twelve and Wjrsports Radio five fifty.

We're gonna be lining up people to give you a lot of different content and thoughts about these different head coach candidates.

I just had Ryan Green from Jacksonville on today to talk about Udinsky.

We talking about some other candidates.

Where the Bills go from here and at any point, any point in time, we don't know.

We could start seeing the smoke coming out of one Bill's drive and thinking, there they go there land towards a coach, and then we got to start advancing the story.

So keep it locked there, Mett Bovay and I of course always Game Day in Buffalo Podcast as well, just like we're doing right here with Eric, and make sure you're just following me over at sal Sports.

Awesome work, great, great engagement today, guys.

We appreciate everyone tuning in.

I'm a half to turf the tape.

I'm Eric Turner.

That's Cell capaccio, We'll see you next week.