A warning.

This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners.

If you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to the end of this episode to find out where help is available.

It felt very real what she was telling.

Me, A stunning confession before Kelly Moffatt ever comes forward to authorities.

I'm still a loss for words for it, because it's, first of all, it's something I don't talk about.

It's something I'm not comfortable with.

I hate that I even have had to talk about it more than I've ever needed to in my whole life.

I'm Leah Rothman.

This is The Real Killer, Episode eleven and Justice for who Deserves It.

Before we get into this week's episode, A quick note about something in our last episode.

I mentioned that back in nineteen ninety seven, no testing had been performed on Anastasia's hands for trace metals.

Turns out there was material collected from underneath her fingernails that wasn't tested either.

In twenty twenty three, Byron's legal team had that material tested for DNA by the Kansas City Police crime Lab.

The Examiner wrote in their report that two of the samples had no foreign genetic material detected, meaning what was found belonged to anastasia, and the last sample was too small to detect anything usable.

Okay.

Also in the last episode, we shared some of the affidavits Byron's legal team has obtained from the medical examiner, the judge, and the defense attorney.

We also shared some of Angie Giannino's affidavit.

Angie and Kelly met in late nineteen ninety nine early two thousand, when Kelly was seventeen and Angie was a couple of years older.

Angie is the friend who on May fifteenth, two thousand, was pulled over for speeding.

Remember, Kelly was in the passenger seat through a bottle of alcohol out the car window and was eventually arrested for littering, given shock, jail time, and probation.

Angie was also at Kelly's house when the June fifth recorded phone call took place.

Today, Angie is a mother and works as an IT solution analyst in the Kansas City area.

Angie agrees to speak with me and share what she remembers about Kelly, their friendship and so much more so, how.

Did you meet Kelly.

I had met her at a party.

It was a rave essentially, and we just like connected immediately, Like she was just a ray of sunshine and I felt her vibe and she felt mine and it was magical.

How does a friendship flourish?

What I liked about her and the reason why the friendship even continued was that she was just so genuine and she was just so sweet, and she really cared about you.

So when she talked to you, you mattered, and she really listened to you, and she was very intelligent.

We had a passion to also go enjoy ourselves, so we kind of followed where these parties went and you know, kind of went into that scene for a bit.

But we had a blast.

We would dance, we would laugh.

I mean, it was just so much fun.

Uh it was Kelly in school at that point.

Or no or no, she was not in school.

We never talked about school.

That's weird.

Like we talked about everything, like about life, philosophy, Like we were really into Avante Guard film music, like none of like the real mainstream stuff.

Like she was so mature, like her whole person, her whole aura.

She's just a very old soul.

When did you first learn of Byron case.

It was in her bedroom at her parents' house.

Like I don't know if it was Bao house we were listening to or could have been the Cure.

I mean we just just a song made her think of him, and like so she spoke of him in a very light manner, initially.

A reminder at this point Kelly and Byron are no longer together before and what did she say about the relationship, But she.

Was just telling me like this, like he was this older man and he was just so beautiful, and he thought she was so beautiful, and they were just enamored with each other, and it was like this magical love story and they were just like obsessed with one another.

I was like, wow, she goes yeah.

I'm like, how did you meet him?

She's like in Westport?

And I was like, well, how old were you?

And she was like, I was like thirteen, And I was like, what what do you do with Westport at thirteen?

By yourself?

I was just amazed by the fact that she was down there.

I mean, I don't remember where she met him in Westport, but she met him and they just immediately like had this like loving like you know, I don't know, mystical love if you will.

That was the assumption I was under when I heard about him.

She's like, oh, yeah, we would listen to all this music and dance and she would do all these like dramatic things with her hands, you know, very gothy, goth ass kind of vibes with it.

So was Kelly goth Yeah, she was, But I was two, so it wasn't like I'm like, okay, like I love the same music and a lot of the same movies.

So she had a dark esthetic.

I wouldn't say, I don't know how to describe it, but she was just she had a very light dark about her.

Over time and She's says she notices some changes in Kelly's behavior.

So I saw some of the cracks in the pavement as time went on in our friendship.

Her and I, like I said, we went to raves.

So when we went to raves, we tried some of the things there, so that would be like ecstasy, you know, but like some of those things and like you know, smoke weed and those were the things, at least to my knowledge, we were doing.

But I didn't know that behind the scenes there were things going on with Kelly and what she was doing.

So I didn't know that it almost became an everyday thing that she was drinking vodka every day, functioning alcoholic.

I didn't know this.

I was drinking, but I wasn't drinking to that extreme extent like I was like, oh, yeah, it's to drink, you know.

And then she was dating this guy named Jim, and I don't know if it's just up and down like relationship, but then I saw more things happen, like her drug use.

So one day, you and Kelly are hanging out and she says what she's.

Like, yeah, let's go visit.

Him, and she's talking about Byron.

I think he's still I don't know if she was communicating with him or how that all even transpired.

How.

I was like, final, take you because I had a car, so I'll come with you.

So we pulled up to his apartment typical Westport apartment, you know, midtown apartment, and we went in and like immediately it was so cold, like and not like temperature like I'm freezing, I need a coat, but like it just dissolute.

It felt very cold, like very very cold.

And we enter into the into his place, and I immediately feel insanely uncomfortable, like I don't feel like I belong there.

I don't know what's going on, but I don't feel very comfortable at all.

So I proceed to have some drinks because it would probably keep me at a decent composure so I could handle the situation.

I didn't even know what to expect.

Nothing.

I just felt a very icy, cold energy within that place.

So they immediately never lose eye contact and just talk.

They're talking, They're talking, talking, talking, you know, I'm just sitting on the couch and letting that happen.

I think a roommate comes in.

I don't know if the roommate went to the room or left.

I don't know.

Again, I just was hoping we could get out of there fast, because what I envisioned of this man was nothing that I felt or saw with my own two eyes that Kelly had glamorized early on.

And Kelly and Byron are talking NonStop.

How do they seem with each other?

Do they seem comfortable?

Are they intense like body language of mimic each other, like like almost as if they were I don't know, like there was definitely there was definitely still a connection between the two.

I couldn't decipher, you know, feelings were involved, but it was like they were connected and they were talking, so they were into what they were talking.

My back was towards them.

I'm on their food, on his futon couch whatever it was, and they were behind me talking and I think she sat down over here once and talked to him, and then she got back up and talked.

They were talking out loud, there was no whispering.

I just don't remember what they talked about because I was so like, I want to get out of here, Like I just blocked because I didn't think it was important for me to listen to what they were talking about.

I think Byron was about to move to Saint Louis.

Do you remember if there were moving boxes or if Kelly said anything about what are the boxes here for?

And he's like, I'm moving to Saint Louis?

Do you remember any of that?

Honestly, the only memories I have are walking into that place and it feeling the vibe that I got of it feeling very icy cold.

Did as you were there for a little bit, did it get a little bit more comfortable, did you feel a little bit more at ease or did you feel that way?

Did you feel uncomfortable the entire time you were there?

I think after my second shot I felt better.

To be honest, I don't think that the vibe ever changed.

So how long are you at Byron's?

Roughly could have been an hour?

And what happens when you leave?

Remember we left and she told me, let's just go to a park.

I need to talk to you, and I said, okay.

This was directly after leaving his house.

We pull over in a park there in Kansas City, not far from his place, and it what she tells me in that car made my heart drop.

So she tells me of what had happened to the two people that were murdered and what she witnessed, and I just couldn't believe it, Like why, first of all, take me to a place of someone who would have done that to somebody like what I had.

I'm still a loss of words for having to experience something just secondhand like that, just to hear someone tell me that, like, it wasn't a movie, it wasn't a book, it was someone who actually saw something so terrible happened.

She tells me the whole story, and.

Tell me, can you tell me what she told you?

What did she What did Kelly tell you?

Oh my god, Oh my god, Like it's awful.

Like she said that she her and Byron would hang out with Anastasia and the scirling Monastasia and Justin they were a couple, like they hung out with them and a couple other people.

But I know do have their names because of what that story And it's not a story.

I mean, this happened to somebody, to people's lives are gone now, you know, like telling me about what had happened.

So she told me, I mean, sorry, I'm getting all jumbled here because I mean, this is intense.

So she told me that she witnessed Byron murder Anastasia and how he did that was by She was in the front seat and he told Anastasia to get out of the car in front of the car, and then he went to the back of the car and pulled out a shotgun or a gun, I'm not sure what kind of weapon, but it was a gun and killed and Kelly was in the front seat witnessing this.

Again, she could have been in the front seat, she could have been out of the car, but she witnessed it.

And so you your friend Kelly tells you that she witnessed her boyfriend murder, her friend murder, and what do you what is going through you?

Fear and sadness discussed and like every emotion you could possibly go through.

But there's more and it involves Justin.

That was kind of a gray area because she said that he was found like a week later in a warehouse, and like in DeSoto, Kansas.

I believe she didn't witness what happened with Justin, so she couldn't be one hundred percent certain about that, but she definitely, she definitely felt that he had some Byron had something to do with Justin's murder.

A reminder, Justin's death was ruled a suicide.

I think you said when we spoke last, like you were almost kind of mad at her that she brought you to Byron's house.

After you learn I was, I was shocked and I was pissed, and afterwards I just was like, what the hell are you doing?

Why would you put me in any harms way like that?

Like what if he went crazy and did something to us at his place.

I don't know him, I didn't know anything like this about him, Like I was, I mean, there were just so many thoughts going through my head.

And then just to know that that had happened and she had told me.

I mean, I was just sick, like so such a barrage of emotions pouring out of me, like I I was, And absolutely I was like why would you even bring someone?

But I felt that she in just retrospect, she probably felt safe with me there because we were the closest to one another.

She must not have been afraid of Byron the way you described like their interaction at his apartment.

She wasn't.

She didn't seem like she was afraid.

But I don't know if she was putting on a brave face.

I don't know, Like get me to the nearest place where I could sit I needed.

I just felt very uncomfortable, Like it just felt like a very dark force, if you will, Like I just felt a very dark energy in the home.

I mean, that's the best way to describe it.

You said you needed to drink.

Was Kelly drinking at that at the apartment too?

With Laren?

Oh?

I'm sure she was always drinking.

Unfortunately, did you guys drink?

Did you drink when you went to the park and she went to go tell you, you.

Know, I think we did.

I think no, I think we did have a bottle in the car, And I got to remember all this stuff, But I think I remember going to the park.

I remember her telling me what happened, and I'm sure we had was in the car.

Sure there was like vodka in the car.

If not, we went and got some probably after.

It's awful.

What what had or had you discussed Anastasia's death and Justin's deaths, their deaths before.

Or when did you first learn?

No?

Yeah, she'd never mentioned in the car.

She'd never in your year and a half or year plus of friendship at that point, she'd never mentioned that one of her friends was murdered and her boyfriend was also found dead.

No, never once.

How when Kelly's telling you this is she how is she?

Like?

What is her demeanor?

She's like, I'm in my like I'm in my seat, you know, I'm the driver's seat.

And then she's like facing me like this and telling me what's happening.

So she's she's kind of catty corner to me, and she's telling me like crying, like just it all was a floodgate, and I felt the floodgates, like she just it all floodgated, all this information, all these things she's held in.

I could feel the release of something that needed to be said, and she told me.

You know, I think the main thing was me wanting to comfort her because that's a big admission, and she's bawling and freaking out, and I was like, my friend is a lot of pain, and she just admitted something so terrible, and to have witnessed something so terrible it was, it was just an awful I felt for her.

I did did Kelly say anything else about what happened the night that Anastasia was murdered?

She did, She did tell me the details, but I honestly don't remember them.

That's fine.

You said that there was no part of you that questioned what Kelly was telling you.

You believed her.

One, yes, yeah, I mean I had no reason to not believe her.

She didn't lie to me.

She was a great friend to me.

And you said she'd never lied to you.

That I mean nothing that I ever caught nothing that I was like, oh you know you lied to me?

Oh yeah, she was pretty honest.

I mean she was up straightforward, you know, very I mean she was.

Honest, Angie says.

After that day, Kelly's drug use gets worse.

So that started the decline of things because I'm like, I can't follow that.

I can't be a part of that.

That's not me.

So once that started, that's when our friendship kind of started.

We were like this and then you know, we were so close, and then we just dissipated slowly, Okay.

And then so she goes into rehab.

Do you know, is it like multiple times or is it just one time before getting to going to Byron's house.

That one day.

She may have gone to rehab before that, but I don't remember.

Excuse me, I don't remember when her first stint was other than when I was friends with her, Like the like crack use became out of hand when after we went to his house.

But really the catalyst was going to Byrons.

That's where Kelly started spiraling.

Meaning the drugs.

The drugs.

Yeah, so she just went off that.

She went off that end there about that deep end, and that was what her coping mechanism was.

I think seeing him triggered her.

Telling me what happened triggered her, and that she was already triggered because she was already drinking daily behind closed doors.

Again, things I didn't realize till later.

So after that, it was her going down that dark demise into drugs, you know, and then it all kind of went to where she then went into rehab and then her admission had happened there.

So timeline wise, it seems around June or July of two thousand and Kelly and Angie go to Byron's house and Kelly confesses to witnessing Byron kill Anastasia.

Then two three months later, in September of two thousand, Kelly confesses to her drug counselor and the authorities are called.

Did she.

Share with you when she came forward and spoke with police?

And yeah, she told me she told the counselor and that that ball is going to start rolling basically like that.

Yeah.

I was going to ask you, like, did you ever consider going to the authorities?

Yeah?

If I had time to really mull it over and not then get swept into another thing that I had to now be concerned for my friend safety and life, I probably would have done that.

You know, I probably would have taken those steps.

But it was again, the two years were so extreme, so many extreme things happened.

So this was like the latter part of the extremity.

It was her addiction or turned into addiction or I don't know when it all started, but it completely spiraled out of control after she told me what had happened.

So you were interviewed by Byron's previous attorney, Cindy Short I think in twenty sixteen with.

My very first phone call, yeah, and.

Then again by his current legal team last year twenty twenty three.

So when you spoke with Cindy Women, yes, yeah, when you spoke.

With Great, what do you make of that?

First of all, I'm like, why do you guys keep asking me, like what did I have to do with anything?

That's how I feel.

I feel very put out.

That was the initial feeling because I don't even know these people.

I was told this in a car and after that, the whole friendship group, you know, it just went south.

She went south at all Wins, So I could they couldn't have been kinder people, especially like put in a cold And my take on it is, I get that they need to do this to you.

You're not on anyone's side.

You're trying to just hear the facts and you're trying to, you know, hear the accounts and stories from everyone, and I find that great.

That's why I'm very comfortable in talking to you about this again.

I can't I'm not pointing any fingers in anyone because I don't I wasn't there, I don't know.

I can only go off of what I was told by a close friend of mine at the time and what I felt, And that's all I can go off of.

Have you ever wondered if perhaps Byron Case is innocent?

Yeah, I've wondered.

I have.

Yeah, it's hard because I you know, people can convince me that Kelly's lying.

People can convince me all sorts of things.

I can only go off how I feel and what I have felt in the present moments when they were happening.

And for me, I didn't doubt her, you know, because it just felt so real and how she spiraled like that, that for me was like validity.

That she is losing her mind because of this admission.

It's not because of guilt.

It's because maybe it was guilt of holding on to it so long.

You know that she never came forward with the true, her true version of it, you know, and she's been holding on to that, so that's eating her alives.

So she's got to do something to fill that void.

And that's what I felt when she went down the spiral.

People I've heard painted all sorts of pictures about her that she's been doing it for ears and she was already, you know, a drug addict and all of that.

Well, I mean, I don't know that to be true.

I can only call the two years that we were friends.

She was great, the glimpses I got to have with her and one of a very dear friend of mine at that time.

But I want justice for who deserves it, and I just I can't, like I said, no, for sure what has happened other than what I again have been told.

Angie says she and Kelly are no longer in touch.

It sucks that all of this happened.

It sucked to witness a bright, shiny light just kind of like flash out like at that time.

Like it sucks to all of it, and it's like it hurts because it's I can only imagine.

Obviously there's people who can't speak for themselves, they're not alive anymore.

There's I mean, it's it's insane, to me that any of this that my brain has to compartmentalize.

I mean, people go through worse trauma in terms of they're not alive, or they're incarcerated, or they're the witness, or it's just it's a lot, so my brain doesn't always handle certain aspects so well, not to mention, I did drink a lot then you know I was going to rave, so I mean my brain wasn't.

I couldn't tell you everything because of the things I partook in at that time as well.

So if it were happening and it was all clear, like you know, I would be like, oh yeah, I could tell you all the things that were said, but it's just hard to remember it all, and also I'm trying to forget it.

Angie Giannino just shared a very interesting story about what happened when she and Kelly Moffatt went to Byron's apartment one day and what Kelly told her after they left, and and she remembered Byron's roommate being there that day.

The woman who was there actually was not Byron's roommate but his friend, Jamie Jamie Reid, who today runs a nonprofit related to LGB and trans identity agrees to talk with me about her friendship with Byron, which began when they met at a coffeehouse in late nineteen ninety nine early two thousand and what she remembers about Kelly and the day she and her friend came over.

Yeah, what were some of your impressions early impressions of.

Byron quirky, creative, incredibly smart, really caring.

I think we were both writing a lot of poetry at the time, so passing poems back and forth and editing and thinking about creative processes and just like hanging out.

I just thought Byron was a really good friend and was just a really good person.

What did Byron tell you about what happened to Anastasia and Justin.

I think that what first happened is somebody alluded to some kind of like, oh, it's interesting that y'all are friends, and I was like, what are you talking about?

I think I mentioned something to Byron about it, and he was like, oh, and told me kind of the background story and was really what I took from what I understood was that there was a lot of grief that Byron still had.

I could tell that he.

Cared about Justin and Anastasia and Kelly, and that there was still sadness over it.

What I just kind of interpreted at the time was that this was a couple who had been really volatile, Justin and Anastasia.

And my interpretation was Justin had killed his girlfriend and then killed himself, and that's kind of what I thought had happened.

I don't remember Byron ever like saying it like that, but it just all kind of made sense that that was what it occurred, and to me, it just seemed like a young tragedy.

What did Byron tell you about Kelly Moffatt.

Byron still really cared for Kelly.

I could tell that pretty quickly.

Byron had a lot of distress over Kelly's drug addiction, Kelly's life circumstances, and where Kelly was at the time.

And it seemed to me.

That Byron was trying to create some I don't think we use the words back then, but create some boundaries and was trying to still be a kind, caring person, but maybe create some distance.

I was around when Kelly would call, and so I would hear, like a one sided com I would like hear Byron side of a phone call.

Byron just kind of saying like no, I can't give you money.

I'm sorry that you're I'm sorry this is going on for you, Like I really wish you the best.

I really can't talk right now, you know, I gotta go wanting like basic needs, Like it just seemed like a kid who like couldn't take care of himself, like I haven't eaten, you know, like you need to take a shower, I need money, like like an addict kind of would How often would Kelly call regularly enough for me to think, why are you still taking these calls?

This is absurd, Like you don't need to you don't need to talk to her anymore, Like this is too much.

I also like in retrospect now being like forty something, these were not like phone calls at like two in the afternoon, like a reasonable time.

This would have been like we were up super late now like she would be calling, which would have been essentially like the middle of the night times too.

That just don't really make a ton of sense.

I just wished that he could have like cut her off, I feel like even sooner.

But I think he was like in the process of trying to figure out how to do that.

Although Jamie says she is there for several of Kelly's calls, she only meets her once in person.

It's the day Angie described earlier.

So we were at Byron's apartment and she had come to the back door, which is like the door that you know we would park at, like back in the parking.

But she came to the back door, which is right off the kitchen, and at first it sounded like Byron was kind of trying to keep her at the door and was like, no, you know, like I really can't help you, Like I really can't talk to you right now, kind of a thing.

She came in.

She was with a friend, right he was with a friend, and it was it was it was weird.

She like was demanding and just seemed to like be that person you kind of want to, like, Okay, let's let's wrap this up.

Let's I can't really do what you're wanting from me.

We were playing a board game.

I remember that, and I and I remember that.

He told her that he was going to move and that we were going to move to Saint Louis.

That's when she got angry and she threatened and said, you can't do that.

You can't leave, you know, you have to you have to take care of me kind of a thing.

And then she said, if you move, I'm going to make your life a living hell.

And Firon was like, we really got to be done with this conversation, like I've friends over, like it's time to wrap this up.

But she how did she take the news that he was moving to Saint Louis.

She was pissed, I mean she was, Yeah, she was angry, and she acted like this lifeline was being taken away, like how you can't do this to me, like this is yeah, you have to be here for me.

How long?

How long were Kelly and her friend there?

I don't know.

I can't really recall a timeline.

I can recall like how she came in kind of tone, and I remember kind of the anger that she got once he told her that we were going to move.

Were they were they drinking?

Do you remember Kelly Byron her friend they were drinking?

Or no?

No, I don't remember Byron drinking.

Do you remember if Kelly was No, I don't.

Think Kelly was drinking.

She seemed disregulated, like up and down.

And I want to say I want to use the word like squirrelly, like couldn't sit still and like up and down and dah dah da da da and like like wanting to like run the whole show too.

And how was her friend acting?

Do you remember?

No, I don't remember.

I mean, did she act like she wanted to be there or just aloof or.

I really don't remember the friend.

How were you with Kelly?

Did you have any like interactions with Kelly.

Or very very much like not really at all.

No, that day you didn't really talk to each other.

No, I had nothing to say to her, and so Kelly mostly spoke with Byron.

Yeah, I was kind of like that other her friend, Like I was that friend.

Yeah, quiet in the.

Room, Jamie says.

After Byron tries for a while to get Kelly and her friend to leave, they finally do.

After Kelly and her friend left, do you remember what the conversation was with Byron?

Uh?

Similar to the other conversations we had had at that point, which was you don't have to deal with this.

I feel like he.

Was just too nice sometimes, that he was allowing that this horrible thing had happened, and that he had been trying to deal with it and process it and find ways to move on with his life and just heal, and that this person wanted to just keep sucking him back in, and just he just needed to get out of there, like it wasn't gonna she wasn't going to stop, like she wasn't going to stop harassing him and and making demands of him, and that he just needed to go.

I asked Jamie what she thinks about what Angie told me that after they left Byron, Angie and Kelly went to a park and Kelly confessed she witnessed Byron kill Anastasia, and that Kelly did this before she ever came forward to police.

So the friend who came over her name's Angie.

I interviewed her.

She also says this in an affidavit that after she and Kelly left Byron's house that day, they went to a park and Kelly confessed to Angie that she witnessed Byron kill Anastasia.

And this was before she ever came forward to the authorities.

What do you make of that?

I don't remember, like I don't remember Kelly leaving in like such like there were I don't know.

I mean, she wasn't like distraught and like losing it it doesn't make sense.

She didn't confront Byron with that.

She didn't say anything like that to Byron when we were at the house, Like she didn't like that wasn't what the conversation was about.

Yeah, And she says that she remembers they were drinking at Byron's.

I know you said that you didn't remember that, but I.

Don't remember that at all.

Yeah.

And then she said that they went to the park and Kelly got very upset and very emotional and then confessed.

That she witnessed Byron Killy Anastasia.

She also said something to the effect that she thinks Byron had something to do with Justin's desk.

None of that makes any sense to me.

But that was not the tone that night.

The tone was much more like it was like I need you to be like my emotional crutch, not like I'm holding this giant secret.

It just wasn't the tone.

Did Kelly act scared of Byron when she not at all?

Never like the No, And it also it doesn't make any sense because she would be like, why why would you be going.

To the person if you're scared of them?

If in your like vulnerable spots like she she would reach out to Byron when she was like have nothing left, Like I need a shower, I need a place to like feel safe and like sleep off.

Why would she be going to somebody she's afraid of in that In those moments, if anything, it was like Byron was the only one who like just had enough compassion forward and not to just keep putting up with her bs.

Not that she was.

She never acted up.

She was like the bully to Byron.

No, there's it doesn't it doesn't make sense or line up.

Jamie says.

She and Byron moved to Saint Louis on September thirteenth, two thousand.

Six days later, Kelly comes forward to say Byron killed Anastasia.

So is it possible that Kelly tells Angie she witnessed Byron kill Anastasia out of retaliation because she was mad he was moving away?

Or did Kelly freak out that Byron was leaving town and leaving her to shoulder this horrible secret alone and that's why she broke down and finally told her friend the truth.

I want to ask Kelly these questions, and I'm hoping she'll sit down and talk with me soon.

I asked Jamie, who testified at Byron's trial, what she makes of the June fifth We shouldn't we should talk about this recorded phone call?

What do you make of Byron not just denying it and saying, what are you crazy?

I didn't do this?

What are you saying?

Oh my god to me?

That's like insane though, Like it's like wordplay.

It's like a crazy person like basically stalks you for like how long, I mean, and then we're gonna like analyze your response to how he answered her after like her being a crazy person for like that long, Like I know, like why should you have to say that?

How many times had she like gone after him?

Like when you're asked something for the millionth time by somebody who's crazy, like you'd probably be like, I'm done, Like we don't even.

Talk about this anymore.

The fact that you didn't say like, oh I didn't do that when somebody's like it it.

But it also that recording also still on some level scares me as somebody who lives in this state.

The fact that like somebody could call you up eight million times and then like on the eight millionth time, you don't say, no, I didn't kill somebody, and that means you're admitting it like that is insane.

But when I interviewed Byron, he said Kelly had never asked him that question before.

Byron said, because he had heard Kelly say so many outrageous things in the past, didn't even matter anymore.

Have you ever asked Byron white blank, did you kill Anastasia?

No?

I never felt the need to.

I mean no, I never crossed my mind that I would even need to do that.

You know, Kelly, you know she definitely thinks that he can fool people.

What do you make of that or what do you think about the way she characterizes Byron.

Byron is intelligent, incredibly intelligent.

I've never felt manipulated by Byron or that his Karen concern was not true.

I don't know if like you know this, but I have five kids.

My oldest is sixteen.

You know, I asked him to be the godparent to my firstborn child.

My kids have visited him.

He sends them hand drawn cards.

He's different, he's his own person, but he's not are.

There's nothing in him that's there's nothing evil in him.

I appreciate both Angie and Jamie sharing their experiences and perspectives with me.

There is someone else I've been wanting to talk with who was actually a part of this friend group around the time this tragedy took place.

Hello, Hello, how are you?

After many attempts to talk and numerous technical difficulties, I finally get the chance to speak with Byron's friend, Abraham Nicsley.

It was Abraham who on October twenty second, paged Byron asking him to come over and pick up some stuff to take to his ex girlfriend, Tara McDowell.

So Justin, Byron, and Kelly stop buy before taking Kelly home for her nine o'clock curfew.

How but how did they look when they came to your house?

Did they how did they look?

It just seemed, you know, relatively unremarkable.

It wasn't you know, it didn't become important until afterwards.

As I said, they were you know, they were there for five to ten minutes.

Did they say anything about having seen Anastasia They had.

Mentioned it on the phone at the time, just seeming as you know, follow up of the breakup problem between Justin and Anastasia.

Although we were going to hang out Anastasia.

But they got in a big argument.

She got out of the car, you know, which is exactly what I testified to, you know, I.

Testified to My understanding was it was told to me.

It was consistent with the first several.

Years of statements from Kelly.

It wasn't until after that she went.

Back to changing your story that Byron did it.

Did they seem worried about Anastasia that night?

Do they seem concerned that she had gotten out of the car?

I don't think.

I mean, I don't think so, you know, I mean, I think it was more she was I mean, I think the expectation was that like she called her parents or whatever.

You know.

My thought was, well, it's not the best of you know, neighborhoods, and in some ways was worse than But at the same time, there was multiple gas stations.

There, you know, payphones still existed, it was daylight, so it wasn't an immediate concern in my mind, you.

Know, and it wasn't necessarily expressed.

Of all, you know, I hope she's it was.

We were all young enough, none of this stuff had ever happened before.

He didn't know to be worried.

The red flags of the situation, you know, are a lot clearer in retrospect than they were at the time.

Just to be clear, you didn't see anyone who looked like they'd been crying, or any blood on their clothes or anything that seems.

Certainly nothing like that.

I mean, especially with Byron and Kelly, like thinking about it.

Yeah, it's as violent as I understand the shooting to be.

It would be difficult for me to fathom how they could have gone from that.

To seeing me.

You know, we then talk about the investigation.

It was essentially coming at this as some sort of you know, satanic.

Ritual abuse scare from the nineteen eighties.

He kind of meets.

Pre Columbine misunderstanding of God culture.

You know, this is Abraham says.

Investigators questioned him before the tape recorder was ever turned on.

Then after he gave his recorded statement, he was arrested on an outstanding traffic warrant.

You know.

Kind of after that, there was kind of this feeling of the real hostility from the police investigation where I didn't really feel like they were going down a productive path further investigation.

And you know, I then asked Abraham about his ex girlfriend Tara McDowell.

Sadly, she has since passed away.

Going back to Tara for a second, When she is interviewed, she tells a different story than you do, which is that Byron and Justin came to her house before they were going to your house.

What did you make of or what do you make of that?

I mean, I think, to be honest, I make of that that.

It was like six months later thence she was.

Being interviewed, not you know, like four or.

Five days the I mean, it's hard.

I hadn't really.

Ever noticed that discrepancy in our statement, to be honest, So to my knowledge, it's the first.

Time hearing from it or hearing of it.

Also obviously testified at the trial itself, and I wasn't present for a testimony, but it was my understanding that she would have been testifying those same things, you know, I did.

Tara was the first person I always found this interesting.

When she's interviewed, she says, they ask where could you know, like did Byron own a gun?

And I think she said no.

Then she said his dad may have owned a gun.

And it was the first person who said anything about Byron's father ever possibly having a gun.

Did you know anything about Byron's dad having a gun or displaying a gun or no.

I mean I never met Byron's father.

Byron's father died somewhere, I think within two months after you know Anna stated it.

Yeah, I never knew of his you know, dad having a gun.

Briefly described for me Byron and Kelly's relation after the murder and justin suicide.

I mean, it seems they continue to date each other for about a year.

Well, no, they continue to date each other, not just for a year, but for more than two.

She was sixteen when they broke up.

When you hung out with Byron and Kelly in the time after the murder, did she seem afraid of them?

Like, No, I'm.

She.

I mean I got the impression that she was more the kind of one that both pursued him initially and then like kind of like I mean, when he wanted to break up with her.

It was you know, yeah, it was her that was always coming back.

So no, I never really saw her.

As kind of the shrinking violet in the situation.

Did you ever ask Byron if you did it?

Oh?

No, I mean I never question the thought that he might have done it enough to think.

It was a question was asking.

Yeah, Barn's really about the least violent violent person I everything, you know in terms of like, I never saw.

Him get even really a violent.

Yelling match, let alone you know, in a fight with someone.

So the idea that he'd be involved with let alone like the primary.

Actor in such a plot just didn't seem believable to me.

You can't imagine Byron putting a gun in Anastasia's face, up against her nose and pulling the trigger.

Yeah, no, that's that's not I can't imagine Byron having your shooting a gun, you know, especially like especially in someone's face.

If somebody in that circle data I say, I just my assumption was always that somehow just look back out and met up with Anastasia was somehow involved.

Where would Justin have gotten the gun if he had a I had gone the next day?

Again, I have know that that's.

Something that none of those pieces ever really made sense.

But yeah, if you bought the original shotgun in September.

It's always been you know, word of mouth that he got rid of it.

But at the same time too, like, it's hard for.

Me to imagine shotgun would being something that they really could have a put back together for.

The open casket surgery and be.

Not found any pieces of obviously you know it wouldn't have been pellets, but you know, a shotgun shell shotgun slug is huge, especially for something like at twelve gage, I just don't see that.

I don't know why I say that that part always and then the fact that you know shees, you know, like cremated the next day or something like can't you even go back and do an autopsy?

Is something in open casket and then they creamated.

But also heard you know, sketch stories that like Robert Ripples, she did bought life insurance for the week before or something.

It always seemed like too.

Much to assume that he was involved, But you know.

Obviously he's proven to be a farsheedier character than any of us.

New at the time.

So now it seems more like something that should have maybe been pursued at that time to at least more formerly little adel.

Did Anastasia ever talk about her dad or I mean outside of the investigation that he did, did you know anything about Bob?

Did Anastage ever talk about him?

All over the impression that she didn't have a terribly happy home life, given you know, her poetry in moving out of her parents' house that like, you know, at least the moment of graduation.

If not six months before that.

You know, I never got any details on it either, know now.

Unfortunately you know Tara very well might have you know, Tara, Tara been you know, abused as a child and was very open kind of about that experience.

And so if all the stage had ever experienced anything like that, Tarah would have been the person she might have opened up to.

But I think Tara, in her interview said having been abused as a young person, she could recognize in anastasia that she probably has suffered from some sort of abuse, whether it be emotional or physical.

That's what I think she said something to that effect.

In her interview.

I'm not shocked by that.

I then ask Abraham if he has any questions about the case.

He says, yes, most involved Kelly.

It's always been a mystery to me is to once she given a false statement.

I guess she would probably be subject to legal.

Repercussions if she were to change it.

But I just it didn't seem consistent in my understanding with She gave so many things in her statement that were inconsistent with otherwise.

That most facts were like Anna Staga is.

Like going you know, to Amaco, et cetera.

And yet she's having her never having.

Gotten she has her.

You know, she never.

Accounts for any of the sightings along Triman Road that seem to you know, take place in her statement.

She's reading her statement from the witness stand and having known that how much the police talked to me before they ever started, you.

Know, recording anything.

You know, it made me really wonder how.

Much she might have been coached to get as good as she got in her statement in the first place.

You know, did Byron ask you to lie for him to be an alibi?

No?

No, would you?

Would you lie for him?

No?

This, I mean, it's weird at this point, being you know, like the only.

One left alive that you know, seem to know all of them.

But at the time, you know, it was a lot more you know, supporting information.

I think to the extent.

That we you know, ever talked about it, like, I think.

All of us kind of assumed it was justin because I.

Mean, I remember, I don't remember like all the exact details, but I remember, like Kelly and Byron all.

Having kind of the same questions you know as far as after Justin had killed himself and it's like, well, you know.

How did this go down?

Like did he go out and I see her later that night.

I think that was all of our thoughts, you know, kind of after he killed himself, like was trying to put that, trying to understand, you know, kind of what happened and when and why.

I mean, I don't think anyone was ever.

Satisfied with the investigation of the results of it.

Throughout twenty twenty three, Byron's legal team continues to rack up affidavits, including those from two jurors.

At Byron's trial, one jur named Sarah McLeod Arena was played both versions of the June fifth recorded call between Byron and Kelly.

In her affidavit, miss Arena says the poor quality one was the one she heard at trial, and that she relied on the transcript to determine what was being said on the recording.

She goes on to write, quote, I am questioning our verdict.

I would have liked to hear this information at trial, including the information that Kelly perjured herself by lying about her criminal record, that there is evidence the victim Anastasia went home, and that the victim's father took out multiple insurance policies on her prior to her death.

She also says, quote, I did not find Kelly Moffitt credible at trial.

There was a lot of pressure during jury deliberations by other jurors to come to a quick verdict.

I needed better facts to back up my doubt about Byron's guilt, but we didn't get.

Those facts at trial.

I actually met up with an alternate juror at a library in Kansas named Rick Panic, who had a very different take.

He doesn't remember a lot of the details that came out at trial, which by the way, was more than twenty years ago, but he does remember that back in two thousand and two, he very much believed Byron was guilty, mostly because he believed Kelly's testimony and he thought the June fifth recorded phone call was damning.

When I shared with mister Panick some of what Byron's team says proves Byron is innocent, like the clearer version of the June fifth recorded phone call, and some of the affat David's, mister Panic says it doesn't change his opinion.

He still believes Byron is guilty.

But prior to getting any of these affidavits, in the late summer of twenty twenty two, Byron's legal team reaches out to the Jackson County Prosecutor's Office Conviction Integrity Unit, hoping they can work together on this case.

Here's one of Byron's attorneys, Sean O'Brien.

So we had a meeting with them by oom and we're kind of laying out Byron's innocent Here's why at that point we had paused our investigation because our thought was some of this investigation when it came to people like the pathologist Thomas Young, the Regional Crime Lab, the Sheriff's office property room, we thought that it would be beneficial to have them with us to participate in that investigation.

We thought we'd get more honest responses.

We thought that there wouldn't be any questioning of the integrity the evidence.

We were doing it together with the Prosecutor's office, and the very first thing they said to us is we don't see the evidence the way you do.

And we responded with, what are you choking on?

You know what the what is the issue you have here?

And at the end of the day they said, sorry, we're not going to help you, you know, knock yourself out.

You can work on this case, but we don't see it as an innocence case.

So when we're talking about conviction integrity, what the hell does integrity mean?

On October thirty first, twenty twenty two, Byron's team sends the Conviction Integrity Unit a sixty six page document with all of their bullet points, citations and excerpts from the trial, and other documents supporting their claims.

Again, the unit declines to take the case.

I would like to know why, so I requested interview with Jeane Peters Baker, the elected Jackson County prosecutor who started the Conviction Integrity Unit in twenty seventeen.

First of all, Miss Baker, thank you so much for taking the time to do this today.

I really, I really appreciate it.

You're welcome and I was waiting for you in my lobby.

Miss Baker has held the elected office since twenty eleven.

Before that, she was an assistant prosecutor for more than fifteen years.

But why did you start the Conviction Integrity Unit?

I started it because there was a need to do it, and now I want to remind you though at that time there was no legal mechanism that I, as the local DA had to rectify a case.

But a big change comes in July of twenty twenty one.

That's when Missouri Governor Mike Parson signs Senate Bill fifty three into law, which, among other things, creates, quote a judicial procedure that provides a pathway for a prosecuting attorney to correct a miscarriage of justice resulting from a wrongful conviction.

And what is the criteria for taking on someone's case.

What we want to see is someone that has some kind of new evidence, something that would put that conviction in a light no longer favorable, you know, to the conviction itself.

And so I can't say exactly what that is.

There's not necessarily a laundry list.

You need facts and witnesses.

You cannot go on theory and strong feelings.

You need because it's like any other case that you're sort of untrying it.

This has to go before a try or fact.

This has to go before a judge, and a judge has to be presented evidence whatever that is.

If it's okay, I'd like to ask you a few questions about buyern case.

Okay.

So his legal team they came to your office hoping that they could collaborate an investigation or see if you could work together to try to investigate the case.

And what happened with that?

So Byron is Byron case is much like other cases that I've had where people have brought me some level of information and it's short, it's you know, it's it's not something that a judge would hear this and find the person actually innocent.

So it requires some additional work.

In Byron case's case, we did do that extra work, and there's just I just want to tell you there's another piece to this that is too often overlooked.

Like in Byron's case, Kelly is a witness who has not moved with all the pressure that she's received, she has not moved.

Her testimony would be the same.

You know that that perhaps is just how it goes with criminal cases that you're never quite done.

But this has had quite an impact on her life.

You know, my office contacting her, you know, somewhat recently to say we're back, we want to talk to you again.

It's not that part is not as sexy for people to do podcasts about or do shows about.

And you know, it's just the other side of it.

And I've had more of those than I've had, you know, opportunities to free someone bluntly under the statute that I have up here.

Under this statute, Byron, case cannot be freed from prison because a judge would need to hear evidence and when I called that, and that evidence is viewed in the light most favorable to the verdict.

So then I have to you know, a judge would have to say, prosecutor call your first witness.

I call Kelly.

Kelly says the same thing she said before, except now whatever potential for it's so many years have passed, sort of her reason for that.

You might attack her for for lying, you know, in the in the first case.

It's kind of not quite there this time.

And although I'm sure you could find some reasons, they don't.

They're not there from from my review and from the other lawyers who reviewed that case.

And the tacit admission made by mister Case would be viewed most likely again as a tacit admission.

So I reviewed the evidence.

I went back and reviewed witnesses.

This is not just an exercise for me.

This is I want to get it right.

And that doesn't mean, you know that I want to free everybody.

It means I want to free those who should be freed, and it means I want to keep those in prison who committed the crime.

And the only way I know to do that is on actual evidence, not on theory, not on romantic.

Views of evidence.

You know, on mister case, it is issues of goth and a cemetery drug use.

You know, there's a lot in there, you know, for it to be something that could be interesting for someone, But at the end of the day, the evidence still holds.

Just a couple of follow up questions, you said you reached out or you wanted to talk to Kelly again.

For what reason did you want to talk to Kelly again?

Well, that's what we do.

That's what a conviction integrity integrity unit does.

I'm sorry to interrupt you.

So when Byron's team came to you, that's when you reached out to her.

Of course, with you know, after some time after going through the file looking at it, and yes, we felt like that's our obligation to do that.

And I want you to know we do.

That based off of the credibility that the defense brings when the defense attorney brings us this issue.

I take that seriously.

And the reason I take it seriously is because I want to get it right too, Because maybe that you know, the wrong person is in prison and the right person.

Is still out there.

It's two wrongs, so we have I have every reason to want to correct this on behalf of victims, and of course on behalf of the people that were wrongfully accused.

From what I understand, since Byron's legal team came to you I think twenty twenty two, they've since gotten affidavits from Horton Lance, you know, Byron's defense attorney, from doctor Young, the medical examiner, and other people, and Charles and Judge Atwell, when you heard or read any of what was in those affidavits, what did you think?

Well?

I thought it was a case that required another look.

I thought it was a case that required we take another look at it and make sure that we got it right.

Let's you know, even though we are a busy office, we can't be so busy that we don't we don't keep looking.

And you still believe, or you still firmly believe that there's there's nothing there for the units to follow up on or.

Yes, I think in this case, I firmly believe that if I brought what the defense asked me to bring before a judge, and I, the prosecutor, now have to present evidence of his innocence, I couldn't get it done under this statute because it's not theory.

It has to be evidence that is proffered to a judge in a courtroom that does indicate actual innocence or you know that there was a like I said, a constitutional error that has not all been taken up.

Byron's team says there is a constitutional error that hasn't been raised before in the form of Brady violations, evidence of Kelly's criminal record and Bob Whipple's Fuchen's emails that were never turned over to Byron's defense attorney Horton Lance.

Because I mean.

Byron's team says that there were Brady violations, that there were, you know, some emails between Anastage's dad and you know, not to hand it over to Horton Lance.

Even with that stuff, would it really only take I don't mean only it would be huge, but would it take Kelly's recantation?

I can't say there, I mean, there's always it is what it is.

Okay, I don't mean to sound cute about that, but it is.

You know, I'm going to evaluate what there is to see.

So maybe there could be another person we didn't know about that now provides information or that would put Kelly's testimony in a different light, and that doesn't exist.

I then ask miss Baker about the first prosecutor on this case who had been accused of some prosecutorial misconduct on other cases.

Amy McGowan was on the case at the very beginning.

Would that ever be a reason to look at it again because of a little a track record or some misdeeds that had been done by her on other cases.

Of course, yes, and we did look at that.

That's we didn't We didn't see that there was really any involvement by Amy McGowan that put this in a different light either well, and ultimately, you know this, like I said, this is not an exercise.

It is the prosecuting attorney's credibility that is on the line.

And when I offer a case like this, I'm not going to just go take a shot in the dark.

I need to believe it.

Right, I mean, I think ultimately everyone wants the right person to pay for the crime.

Amen, we should all agree on that.

We should always all agree on that.

Since we recorded this interview, Miss Baker, who did not seek reelection in November of twenty twenty four, left the Jackson County Prosecutor's Office and today is a private citizen.

So after Byron's team strikes out with the Conviction Integrity Unit in December of twenty twenty three, they file a one hundred and thirty nine page emotion with the Court of Appeals.

Here's Byron's attorney, Brian Russell.

So currently, the motion that we filed is it's something called a motion to recall the mandate.

When a Court of Appeals issues a decision, it's called its mandate.

There are very very limited circumstances where a Court of Appeals can take that mandate back.

One of them is fraud on the court, or constitutional violations within the mandate, or that are perpetuated by the mandate, or some retroactive decision of the US Supreme Court that would impact the outcome.

And we've got all three of those in this case.

We've got the tape, which is a material mistake of fact or fraud, and then we have all this undisclosed evidence such as the emails showing that Anastasia went home and changed clothes, Kelly Moffitt's conviction and how that conviction was had while she was cooperating with Jackson County.

Here's sawn again.

This was a thin case in the beginning, and the Court of Appeal struggled to affirm the conviction.

And now they know that what they used to confront to affirm the conviction were lies, false evidence, and so this is obviously a false evidence case if the phone call with Byron had not been falsified.

Kelly Moffett is an unbelievable witness, But it comes down to this.

The Court of Appeal says, well, you can attack Kelly all you want, and yes, there are a lot of things that say she's unreliable, but we have the tape.

You can attack the tape all you want, but we have an eyewitness who is supported by the physical evidence.

None of that's true, None of it's true.

It's all been disproven and so the two legs of this case have both been sawed off.

Nothing to hold it up.

When I interviewed Byron's lawyers, they were expecting a decision on the motion any day.

They were hopeful it would be granted and it would lead to a new trial.

A month later, on February twenty seventh, twenty twenty four, the motion was denied.

Devastated, but not deterred, their fight continues next time on The Real Killer.

He found out a little before he got home that Anastasia had not come home, so I knew that Bob had gone to find her.

A new witness comes forward with a bombshell of a story.

I just remember him saying he couldn't get her to get in the car.

Bob said he tried to get her into the car.

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast.

To see photos, maps, and documents related to this season's story, follow The Real Killer podcast on Instagram and at trk podcast on TikTok.

The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me Leah Rothman.

Executive producers Leah Rothman and Elisa Rosen.

For AYR Media.

Written by Leah Rothman, editing and sound design by Cameron Taggi, mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi.

Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam studio engineer Graham Gibson, Legal counsel for A y R Media, Johnny Douglas, executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard,