Jason, welcome mate.

Thanks for having me, man.

Excited to be here.

You spent a week with Richard Branson recently.

I did.

How was that?

Indescribable.

That guy is an inspiration, for sure.

You know, you can see why he's the billionaire that all billionaires want to be.

You know, he's uh it's rare that you meet someone who is so in tune with what life's all about and have a family that really love him and has the a great time, you know, every day and looks after his health.

Um, but he really does lead by example, you know.

He's he's been a hero of mine, but I've I've admired him since I was a kid.

And um when I'm on a bike cycling up a 2,000-foot mountain, and I get off to walk my bike, and I look up, and he's the only one just still pedaling, you know, it's like wow, it's it's really hard to come away from somewhere like that, spending time with someone like him with any excuses.

Like, so it's uh yeah, it's just an incredible experience.

And he relays everything through people, doesn't he?

Is that kind of his business how he does it?

He does, yeah.

So so in terms of business, Richard Branson isn't like a business guy.

He's not like a tech like he's not a great business person if if he doesn't know about like the the intricacies of sales and marketing and all that really, really.

Um what he does is he he seems to come, he finds something that he feels is unjust, you know, like he that's not right.

And he takes it a little bit personally, and you can tell that he's sat up, maybe cried about it at night or thought about that being wrong, someone being done over or had an injustice.

And then he will he will take a vendetta against a competitor who does it wrong, and then he basically just shines a spot that gets on the front of a of a newspaper, basically, and gets people to buy into why why it's wrong.

And then all he does is he gets great people and then pulls the best out of the of the people, so delegates all the stuff that he doesn't know to people who do enjoy it and do like it, and the and he finds the best in people, you know.

Um, really inspiring, you know.

But what a great way to do business.

I think all when I think of a lot of billionaires, um, although they've served a lot of people, I can't help but feel a little a bit solemn when I look at like Elon.

I feel sad.

Like when I see him talk, there's a sadness.

When I think of Virgin as a brand, and I think of Richard Branson, I just think of love.

It's just like what a lovely brand, you know, what a lovely company.

Um, and when I think of Richard, it just yeah, just I just think of happiness.

I don't think I don't feel have that feeling.

Um, it's an intangible thing, but I think he's really cracked it.

Yeah, he's I just love it.

Like he takes entrepreneurs from all different walks of life and brings them together and just gives them like the experience of a lifetime.

And everyone that I've seen who's come off Necker Island is like it changed my life.

Yeah.

Oh, it definitely definitely changed my my life.

It's a life-changing experience.

But yeah, there was one guy there who was in a gang.

It you know, he'd been stabbed and shot, and they just it he just took him under his wing, and now he's like making doing 10 million pound deals and completely changed his life, the guy, you know.

Uh he and again he recognised in that guy that if you're leading a gang, you're good at relationships, you know, but just use relationships at building networks and do deals.

And and it was that, you know.

Uh you saw that in someone who was in the depths of despair and and and allowed them to change their life around.

So he's a remarkable human, that guy.

Yeah.

I've been so excited for today because I think you are possibly well for me personally, like you've done what I'm setting out to achieve, but you did it at a really young age.

You were financially free at 30, which is absolutely incredible.

Um, talk us through how you made that happen at such a young age.

Okay, so they uh I'll start at the beginning, I guess.

Uh they reckon that you know your values are shaped by the time you're seven.

Um, I believe that you value most what you perceive to be missing most as a kid.

So for me, my earliest memories were a lack of security, basically.

You know, it was it uh it wasn't money, I didn't know what money was then, but it was it was just me and my mum.

My dad had left before I was born.

Um, you know, we had the bailiffs knocking on the door for electricity money, hiding behind the sofa, pretending we're not in and all that kind of stuff.

Uh, they were my earliest memories.

And then to make ends meet, my mum would try and go and get various jobs in taxi ranks and things like that.

And uh I'd be babysat by this this couple called Joey Powell and Shirley Powell.

Joey Powell's like one of the most renowned gangsters in in London.

And all day, you know, as a four or five-year-old, I would have screaming people coming around this house.

I just it it was my earliest memories were just like no security, uh uncertainty, right?

So I suppose what happened is that I developed this yearning for security.

So I didn't know that money would provide that.

Later on, I found that out.

But um, there was a turning point when I was uh 13.

I I lived on this estate called Hatfield Mead.

And um, every Friday at the foot of our block of flats, there was these steps that everyone used to kind of sit and have a mother's meeting.

And I used to be a nosy teenager, so I sat there and earwigged, and I would just pick up on people saying, Oh, money, you know, rich people, my boss, all this.

It was kind of this negative view towards money.

And the reason I picked up on it, because I probably wouldn't have picked up on it, but the reason I picked up on it is because this guy called Roy used to come down at half seven after I had kind of noticed everyone moaning about money.

He would take everyone's money and go and do a syndicate lottery, and then for the next 10 minutes, their faces would be lit up with how amazing it'd be if they won the money.

And I remember because I couldn't put two and two together, it was like, that's weird, you know.

I thought money was horrible.

Now they're saying it's great, and I didn't really get it, you know, I didn't really understand it.

Coincidentally, that year, I wanted this BMX for my 14th birthday.

Um, and I was putting hints all around my flat to my mum and my stepdad, and they were like, We can't afford to buy, but if you can raise half the money, we'll put the other half, and then in six months you can go and get it on your birthday.

And um I thought, yeah, that's a great deal.

So I've started washing cars, and I washed this car for this lady called Lynn, and um she gave me five pound plus two pound tip.

And that night, my friend was in my room and he was like, Oh, I can help you if you want.

And I was like, I don't really want to pay you, you know, and I get the bike.

But I thought, uh, you know, maybe.

And my stepdad came in my room and said, I'm going down the shop.

Do you want anything?

Something made me give him everything I'd earned that day to get another bucket and sponge so my friend could help me, right?

So everything's gone.

I'm back to square one.

My friend gets a bucket and sponge.

The next day we do four cars, and then within four weeks I had four friends washing the cars, and I wasn't washing cars, I was just knocking on the on the doors and collecting the money and booking them in for the next one.

Cool.

And it was like I discovered fire.

Like I remember standing on one of the balconies thinking, this is like I'm still gonna get the bike.

I'm still gonna get what I want.

It'll take a little bit longer, maybe, but I'm doing more things that I I'm not doing all the stuff that I didn't like about this.

And that really stuck with me.

It stuck with me, it it made me sit.

I thought that must be why people don't like money, they're not using it properly.

Because if you use money this way, you still get what you want and you do more inspiring stuff, like more enjoyable stuff.

And I wasn't getting black fingernails, you know, and washing the tires.

Yeah, and crusty hands, yeah.

And the wrinkly, yeah, the crinkles, right?

So I thought, this is amazing.

So that gave me a connection towards how you can use money for less chaos and more security.

It was like, if I use money well, I can actually have a good time.

You know, that's really all I linked it to.

So I took that into the workforce with me, that kind of mindset of how to delegate, how to the first port of call with any penny you earn is to uh pay for things that you don't like doing and get it off the table, uh, regardless of sacrificing profit.

I'll take the profit last as long as I don't do anything I don't want to do, and I'll just do the things that I do want to do.

Uh, I did that from 21, basically.

Um, and then what happened was is we found out I was gonna have a kid.

22, I found out I'm gonna have a kid, and my life flashed before my eyes, because all I thought was I've failed, you know, I'm now gonna give him the life that I I didn't I didn't want, I didn't want him to have.

When I had kids, I didn't want, and and I basically just thought he's gonna be like I was, you know, have all that horrible crap growing up.

So um so that just put a rocket up my ass, basically.

Um, I was always talking about becoming financially independent.

What that meant to me as an engineer, so what it meant to me was replacing my uh my living costs with income that I didn't have to exchange uh a geographical location for a shop to a to a boss.

Um and at the time I had Microsoft Money.

Microsoft Money was basically a glorified spreadsheet.

I was obsessed with spreadsheets in school, um, but it was Microsoft money and you could have some charts and all this.

And I and I basically worked out that if I save 10% of my income uh at a 10% return per year, I could replace the income that I was on at that time as a 22-year-old in 20 years.

And I thought, that's amaz that's amazing, because everyone's working for 45 years.

Like what surely that that can't be right, but the the numbers were there, the maths didn't lie.

And then I became fascinated with shortening this, right?

So it was like, well, if I increase my savings every three months by 10%, um that would you know that reduces it down even more.

And if I if I can get more than 10%, 11%, 12%, that reduces it even more.

And if I can um you know, if if I can uh grow my income by 5% or 10% per year above the inflation rate, then uh that will you know reduce it down even further.

And it just became the point where I thought, I've got a like I can I can do this in like 10 years, basically.

Um it wasn't that easy, you know.

So basically what I started doing was going into uh saving, then I went into uh index funds, then I went into ETFs, and then I went into large cap stocks.

Yeah.

So the more, the more you kind of go up this speculative ladder to grow the returns, the more skill you have to have.

Yeah, you know, and potentially the more time it can take you, um, with stock investing, it can take you time for learning, but then it doesn't take you any time, um, especially now with like AI tools.

I mean, I'm crying now because what used to take me like three weeks, I can do in 10 minutes, you know, on some of these tools now.

I've spent years doing that.

But um, but as you go into like trading and things like that.

So trading came in, that was the last piece in the puzzle.

Basically, what I'd done is I to grow my income, I had to start a business because I had to control my income.

Because I was abusing the business to pay myself as much as possible to put into this pot to become financially independent.

Um, that brings a lot of stress.

You sort of you need a new manager, you can't afford a new manager, you know.

You need and and it was like this rocking boat that I knew was gonna sink.

And you couldn't buy back your time anymore, yeah.

No.

And can I can I replace my income by the time this thing sinks?

Because it's gonna sink.

Right.

So that's when I was looking at higher speculation stuff.

Um, what I wanted to do is take a small portion of the total pot, put it into something that grew quick, but allowed me to still, you know, grow the whole thing but not have too much volatility.

And I was looking at um online poker, you know, I was looking at um options, uh spread betting and things like that.

And anyway, I blew around 40 grand just financial markets and futures.

Um, and I learned a lot of lessons blowing that 40 grand.

And uh by that time, I I you know just about became consistently profitable after about three years, and then um it was about a year and it was about 18-month period to matching my income that I was on at that particular time.

So after that, I was 29 years old.

I'd match my income with semi-leverage, semi-passive income, I guess.

Uh, trading, my swing trading took me, you know, 10 minutes a day, half hour a day, depending on how much I put how much time I decided to put into it.

But it was uh I wasn't on a lot of money, you know.

It wasn't, I wasn't on tons of money, the freedom was more important than the money.

You know, we had a comfortable life.

Uh, I was probably on about 60 grand a year.

I was on a I was on a high income for my age because I I was just that kind of guy.

Um, and I mapped 60 grand a year income from those endeavors, basically.

The magic happened after that.

So when I didn't need the job anymore and I'm at home full-time, and you put all your focus onto that, you just grow and grow, and it's like, and then you see opportunities that you didn't see before, and then you know, you you hear things that you you didn't hear before because your head was buried in the sand, and it's like impossible not to earn more money when you're when you're free and able to like focus and you know, be content with things.

It's um yeah, so that was it.

I kind of did the same with Up the Gains, it like as the day it hit my monthly salary, I went, I'm out.

Right.

Because I knew that oh, I'm doing this with four hours a day, sometimes six hours if I was pushing really hard in the evenings and stuff like that.

But what if I had 10 or 12 and I knew and it was going like that?

And I knew the moment I did that, it was like you've got to believe in yourself and go for it, right?

Yeah.

And like that sounds very similar to you in a lot of ways.

It does, but um, that was it.

Um for me, my personal experience of that bit where I was just on that cusp, uh, that was probably the most difficult time of my life because people didn't, even my wife, my kids, my extended family, they just didn't trust what I was doing at that point.

They didn't believe that I could do it.

I don't think mine do now, mate.

Right.

They're like, he does some TikTok y thing.

Oh, right, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

For me, like back when I, you know, started going into trading, there was no trade, like it wasn't like it is today, where you've got every flipping Tom Dick and Harry on on TikTok pretending they're traders and stuff.

It wasn't like that.

There was it was years and years and years ago.

Um, and people just thought I was nuts, they thought I was gambling, they thought I had a gambling addiction, didn't really have any support.

I could see the doubt on my wife's face, I could see, you know, it caused all sorts of problems.

But it was then when I just thought I've I believe in myself and I've just got a lead, you know, and just hope they come with me.

And that and that was it.

I was I was willing to lose everything just because I was so sure that it would work.

I was so close.

And thankfully it it paid off.

You know, I didn't go into it stupid, I'm not an idiot, I'm not a um, I wasn't going into it for a get-rich quick.

I was very logical about the approach to trading.

Yeah, you know, I wasn't um I didn't have unrealistic expectations or a little bit at the beginning, but yeah, I I went but I knew my numbers.

I knew my numbers, and when you hit when you know your numbers, it's very difficult to be knocked off track.

Because it's like, well, the numbers don't lie, you know.

I just I just need this, I need this return.

So And like you are an outlier within people that start trying to trade because you know, as we know, 90 plus percent just fail completely have or eventually do.

Probably more, but I'd say probably 98% of that, yeah.

Right, exactly.

Yeah.

And so it requires almost like a PhD level of knowledge in the space, equally as well.

You have to know your numbers and be very good at actually managing both a portfolio from a risk perspective, but equally as well from a position and like how much you're taking here and understanding the nuances of what you're doing.

And so we spoke earlier before we came in here, like it's not for everyone, right?

It's not I I'd say most people shouldn't even try it.

You know, most people shouldn't even try it.

Um, but that's not investing, is it?

And that's not investing, it's trading.

So so I think what happens is I say that you should never grow your money at a rate your mindset can't keep up with.

And I see it as, you know, you've got this pyramid, and at the bottom is very stable, reliable, low leverage, low in low returns, but fixed income growth, you know, and then as you ascend this pyramid to the top, the top is like red or black on on roulette, right?

Um, and everything in between.

So the if you don't know enough, I'd give you Bitcoin, for example, right?

Bitcoin, if you look at the chart of Bitcoin, it's only ever gone up.

Only ever gone up, right?

So it's you look at when it started and look at it today, it's it's just a big upward like um chart.

But thousands of people lose money on Bitcoin.

Why do they lose money on Bitcoin?

Because they don't understand it or they don't know what they're doing, they don't trust it.

So their mindset is the thing that's jeopardizing their ability to yield returns from the thing because they can't stomach the downside, they can't stomach the dips.

And the reason they can't stomach the dips because they don't know they don't know about Bitcoin, they don't understand it, right?

So I always say allocate like you want to allocate your capital as a direct proportion to your knowledge and skill in the thing.

Because if you're being kept up at night and checking your phone about something, you've got too much in it, or you don't know enough about it.

So that's your internal mechanism to go, look, divert, like put your capital in things that are safer until you do understand this bit, and then you'll have the confidence.

And it's all relative.

Like for me, I'll put 30% of my capital into a forex trading account because I I know that that will not affect my mindset.

Um, exactly.

But but it's like anything, right?

Business.

You say like people fail in trading, 90% of businesses fail.

You know, people go into it, ironically, they're chasing it to get rich quick or to to because it's the the quicker returns.

But they neglect the fact that they're escaping their life.

So their mindset is trying to get there quicker, whereas it's much easier to optimise your life for freedom than it is to chase financial freedom.

You you're taking the next question clean out.

It was because I was gonna say you speak about this a lot, and you speak about this on a perspective of like, okay, you're going and chasing this big trading portfolio, and you want to be the man and you want to drive the Lamborghini, but you haven't figured out life and what freedom looks like for you first before going out and naturally starting to accumulate these like knowledge assets, essentially.

Yeah, absolutely.

And why and why is that?

Um, I think people look up to other people.

Um so I ask people like, what do you want?

and they say freedom, right?

And I say, and this is you know, even in NECA, surrounded by people who've got hundreds of millions, uh, full of anxiety.

Uh they don't know who they are, right?

So I say, What does freedom look like?

And they say, Well, I just want to do what I want, you know, whenever I want, with with whoever I want, wherever I want.

And I go, What do you want?

And they say, I don't fucking know.

You know, I don't know.

They don't know themselves, they don't understand because all of their life they've been trying to please and appease mum and dad, or impress some ex or some boss, or you know, get one over on someone, and or look up to someone else, have someone on a pedestal where they think, Oh, I need that to look that part, or I need to keep my kids in this school, or all that crap.

And it it rules their life to the point where they just do not know who they are at all.

Um, so everything they spend their money on is kind of a futile uh quick fix, right?

And they think they want a Lamborghini, but you don't want a Lamborghini, you know, you don't want a Lamborghini, so you're putting stress on yourself to chase something that you don't actually want, and um, you forget what life's about.

Like I was saying the other day to someone about it, seems like everyone's on this kind of train, and uh, you know, you get on a train and it's like I'll get off at the success stop or whatever, and you're just watching everything go past you, thinking you're gonna go somewhere, and then this like the doors open at this station, and you think, Oh, that looks that looks really nice, actually.

And then you hesitate and the door's shut, and you go, I'll get off on the next one, you know, when I've got the next thing or the next pay rise or whatever, and then the train crashes, and it's chaos, like all your relationships are gone, your money's like all over the place, and you think, I should have got off back there.

Yeah, you know, that that's that's where I was content.

You know, that would have that that was what I was after, really.

But it takes the crash for people to see that they should have got off at that stop, and uh, that was very, very prevalent speaking.

I mean, I've spoken to a huge demographic of wealth, um, including people on Necker Island, and it's always the same, it's all the same.

Doesn't matter how much money you've got, um, they miss what life's about and and understanding who they are and what they want for this little life to be a great experience while you're here.

How how do we approach that?

Because I mean, I you know, you you won't be the first or the last to say those things, and it's very difficult to sit there and ask yourself those deep questions and actually come to an answer where you understand it.

Yeah and like because I I'm searching all the time, and what I want eventually changes and adapts over time.

Yeah.

So, how can you like fixate on something and and and go for that?

Yeah, I think um so contentment for me just uh comes from a few things.

One, understand because you do want to chase for different things, and your values change and shift slightly.

So there might be new things that you want to unlock and you want to go after or whatever.

Um, but for me, for example, I've got zero goals, I don't have any goals.

I don't I probably won't have another goal for the rest of my life.

I don't I don't want to strive for anything.

What I want to do is just have a mission that's aligned with my values, and that will just unlock different milestones, like the fact that I wrote a book about what I believe in and then became a best-selling author, right?

And then that unlocked NECA, and you know, all these things are just being unlocked, but it's not me going, I'm gonna get to NECA one day and I'm gonna hustle and scratch and claw till I get there.

Oh, okay.

It's not that, it's not that.

So for me, it's about knowing who you are as a person, knowing your values.

And the I mean, there's some really kind of little exercises you could do to do that.

Simple ones, just like go through your camera roll on your phone over all the years and notice like things, moments of inspiration where you've decided to take photos.

There'll be a common theme of things that you take photos of, right?

Might be the kids, might be animals, might be the mountains, might be sports or whatever, right?

Music.

Uh, but there'll be a theme there.

And then mine will be my dog.

Right.

Right.

Mine's all I take photos of.

Amazing, right?

But then if you combine that with questions like if you, you know, if I gave you a hundred million and Monday morning, what what's the first thing you're doing?

The first thing you're doing is probably closely correlated to something you're inspired by, right?

Um definitely.

Yeah.

Uh, if if I was to ring your friends up and ask them what they would call you for for the reliable thing, like what you bring up in conversation, who are you the go-to person for?

What would they say?

You know, and what do you what lights you up, what energizes you, what do you spend most of your disposable income on?

All those kind of questions, there'll be a theme, and that will be closely correlated to what uh you know, your purpose, what what you should be here doing.

Um, and the great thing about the world we live in today is it everything's monetizable.

Um, you can reach a global audience, you can serve people and contribute towards people sharing things that inspire you.

And um and yeah, you can make money being you, uh, which is a which is a great thing to do.

What a lot of people do in business is they don't they don't understand that making money and building freedom are two totally separate skills.

So they earn a lot of money and they're great at sales and marketing and strategies and funnels and all that kind of stuff.

Um they not they don't learn a skill for building freedom.

So they eventually sell or exit or whatever, and they're comfortable earning the income while they're in the business, but then they get this lump sum and they're not being paid for their efforts anymore.

They lose their purpose because they never figured out what it was, they haven't got really a sense of meaning anymore, they wish they never sold the thing, and now they've got to figure out how to manage money as well, which is something they're not very good at.

Like, entrepreneurs are not really good investors.

Investors make on good entrepreneurs, but not the other way around.

That's what I've found anyway.

Because if you get a load of money, it doesn't mean that you're miraculously going to be a good money manager.

Um, in fact, you usually end up building freedom as a result, as a byproduct of being a good money manager.

So it's it's the other way around.

So it's a real struggle, and and people struggle with it.

And uh then they end up in a place where they get a guilt complex where they've got all this money and you know they need to give it away and buy acceptance from their friends and family and all this kind of stuff.

They don't feel worthy of it, they don't, they feel like they're overly optimistic as entrepreneurs, so they invest too heavily in lots of things.

They feel everything's gonna work.

Oh, that's a good idea, that's a good idea, you know, and they give too much away doing that, and very quickly it gets whittled down to nothing, but that gives them an anxiety because now they're halfway down on their money and they're like, crap, you know, it's going too quick, but I don't know what to do with it.

I don't want it in my bank, but I don't want it, you know, I want to put it in the right things.

Can't talk to anyone about it because it's like, oh, you've got 200 million in the bank, you know, poor you, you know.

And and you know, and unfortunately, I know a guy who who it was tragic, but he ended up taking his life and his family's life because he didn't uh he couldn't handle it, he couldn't cope with uh what to do, he didn't know what to do.

You hear it all the time.

Yeah, they're like, Oh, we got stir crazy, we couldn't sit here doing nothing, and so we started this brand new thing in some completely random industry, and you're looking at it thinking, that ain't you, what are you doing?

No, I know, yeah.

No, I say it all the time.

But again, it comes down to not knowing yourself, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, absolutely.

And the book is obviously about living on your own terms, and I'd love to know from going through all of this yourself, you seem very self-assured, like you know where you're going, your your mission is aligned with what you're doing.

What do you think is that one decision that you made early that most people miss when they start approaching this?

I always think about like when you're seven years old, you are um you got all the freedom.

You know, you're you're out playing on your bike, kicking football around, having ice cream or whatever your friends, and then your parents call you in for bedtime, and you're like, you know, when I'm an adult, no one's gonna tell me what to do.

I'll be freer than ever, you know?

And then when you watch adults become adults, you see them become less and less free and and move further and further away from who they were at seven.

When I went to, I took my family to Disneyland in 2012, and as we went through the gate, there was this old boy that was working there, it must have been like 80, and he had the Disney outfit on, and he he stamped our ticket back when it was all tickets and paper, and he said, Go and be a kid again.

And I remember looking at everyone like they're all pure delight on their face, running through these things, you know, and that and I realised like that's all anyone wants to be, they just want to be seven years old.

Big full circle moment was when I was on Necker Island, where you got these 40 millionaires and billionaires, all in one place.

They've all decided to spend their time and money to be there together, and all they were doing was climbing rocks, riding bikes, playing tennis, uh, story times at dinner, and you know, early bedtime, going to bed at nine every night.

And it was a full circle moment because I remember thinking, this is the top.

If this is the top, if this is what everyone's chasing, right?

People need to pat themselves on the back a little bit and give themselves some credit for where they are right now.

Because you know, if you have this available to you all the time throughout your whole life, chill out, you know, you've got it there already.

And knowing that and and being content with that idea.

So for me, it was having an idea of what my ideal life would look like very early on.

So being realistic about what I would want in my life, how much would that cost?

Uh, what is my what would my ideal day look like?

And it wouldn't be driving a Ferrari and all that.

It was like a bit of time in my family, not all the time in my family.

I wouldn't want to.

I I asked people like, what you know, what do you want?

More time in my family.

How much time?

And they're like, Well, all the time.

And I'm like, you wouldn't.

No, you don't.

No, you wouldn't.

You would go nuts.

So it's again, it's so a day.

Exactly.

And then what happens if I say I grant you a wish, then, you know, you've got all the time in your family next week, you would feel guilty because you'd be sitting there thinking, I don't want to be with these people.

I don't want to be with these people all the time.

And then you'd have a guilt, right?

Because you haven't been realistic about the goal.

So it's like a friend of mine's um uh her dad just retired and he lasted three months, and she had the wife kicked him out.

It's just like, get out, like you need to go and do something.

Like, I can't have you around here all the time.

Like, it's just that and yeah, they love each other, they've been with each other for like four years, but yeah, you can't have that, can't happen.

No need to have other things.

Exactly.

So, what are they and how much they cost?

Yeah, well, it's realistic to assume that you're not going to want to spend every minute with someone, but I think again, people buy into this idea that that is ideal, that is ideal, and therefore they chase that, and then they realize that, oh, you know, that's not what I wanted, and then they split up with their partner because they think that that's a negative thing.

But actually, no one wants that.

You know, so for me it was about getting really clear about um what life I wanted.

Um and you can do that, you can sit and ponder and visualize what it looks like and how your life will be.

There was a story when when we found out my we were having my first son, I was 22, and my wife's sister had just found out that they're gonna have a kid, right?

So I'm like, I don't want the kid because this is gonna ruin my life and I'm not ready for the kid, right?

The sister's boyfriend was like, um, can't wait, gonna take him football, blah blah thing.

And I remember looking at him thinking, You have not really thought about this, you know, you've not visualized how this is gonna affect you or impact you or what it's gonna cost you and all this kind of stuff.

Anyway, I said to my wife, which it must have been really hard to my wife at the time, but I was like, look, I don't want to talk about it, but give me like some time, some months.

I I'll just want to get in my head what I need to step into here, and and I'll be fine, I promise.

It took about five, six months.

But by the time my son came, I was like besotted because I was just so ready for it, you know.

I was really mentally prepared for it, and it was the best thing that ever happened.

The other guy, he was out the door, he was gone.

Gone as soon as he came.

You know, he wanted to go back to clubbing and doing all the things because he didn't have realistic expectations about what it was.

So, what happened with me is when I crossed the point of I've got everything I want, um, I was content, and everything else is a bonus, which is why I have no goals.

Um, and I think contentment is what people want.

So let's just find this back in terms of like if you are sitting there listening to this now, but you're thinking, yeah, and I I want to do something, but I'm in my 40k job, and I'm not sure what how and like what to do and where to take that next step, you are saying get that dream and that sort of unique angle to where you want to be first, and then start working on yourself.

I would say um building freedom in your life now is easier than chasing a financial freedom.

Okay.

So so when you talk about like when I talk about freedom, always free, it's made up of three things.

It is your mind freedom, how well you know yourself, how well you know your values, goals are definitely aligned to who you are and not some other person's dream that you're chasing.

Um, and then leaving behind any baggage that you might have that is that is holding you back, please appease mum and dad and all that kind of stuff, or any negative thing that happened to you in the past that you're you've got a fear now of in the future that it might cause a problem.

You know, I always say, like you imagine you walk in, uh find your partner cheating on you, right?

Um, worst thing in the world, you've now got a fear of dating, you now don't trust people.

Um, and then you know, it's the worst thing that ever happened.

20 years later, I bump into you and I say, Was it the worst thing that ever happened?

You probably say, No, it's the best thing that ever happened.

You know, I've met this person, we've traveled the world, we've got these kids, blah, blah, blah.

So it was just a thing, but it was the worst thing.

Now it's the best thing, but it took you 20 years to realize that it was just a thing.

So, like, imagine if you could do that quickly, like five minutes, 10 minutes, right?

Um, it's a complete inefficiency to not see the good and bad in every situation.

Um, so being able to do that in your mind, that is total mental freedom, right?

And if you know who you are, you can then start to know how to fill your calendar.

So the mobility freedom is how to optimize your time for inspiring stuff over uninspiring stuff.

So if you're in a job, what can you like do a time study and see how you spend all the time in your job.

If you've got a business, do this.

Every 15 minutes, alarm on your phone goes off.

You just note down what you were doing for the last 15 minutes, do it for 168 hours.

You'll be asleep for 40% of that anyway.

Uh, the rest of it, just write it down.

At the end of that week, you'll have a priority list of how you spend your time.

You know, it'll be you'll do probably do 80% of the time spent on stuff you don't find inspiring and 20%, maybe 10% of stuff that you do enjoy.

You've then got a priority list to delegate or automate or systemize the uninspiring stuff.

And it's always the cheapest stuff to delegate.

Yeah.

Like you'll be doing emails or like you know, cleaning or whatever it might be.

Get that stuff delegated, automated, systemized, right?

Using softwares and team and systems and upwork or whatever you need to do.

Um, and that goes for if you're in a job as well.

Like I don't know if you've read Four Hour Work Week by Tim Ferris.

Yeah, and uh the book that I mentioned I'd just finished was Buy Back Your Time by Dan Mattel.

So exactly exactly.

Tim Ferris basically just was at a job and he paid, he got his wages and paid other people to do something in the Philippines.

COVID solved that problem.

Like the first half of that book was like convincing his boss to be mobile, and then the second half is how to be passive.

COVID basically proved to everyone that you could work mobile, so so like you don't have to do that anymore.

Now you just want to build the systems, right?

And and build the passivity.

So you can do it in your life if you're in a corporate job, corporate job, business, yeah, anything.

Um, even if you're a a stay-at-home parent, you can now you know do it there and you can put a plan in place to delegate all the stuff so you can work on stuff that you enjoy most and you're best at.

Um, for me, if you know who you are and you're doing the majority of spending the majority of your day doing things that you enjoy and you're being paid, you know, there's a there's a rationalization of of living costs that you might need to do to make sure you are living truly to who you are, but you are free at that point.

You know, you don't want to retire from that.

You're doing what you want to do every day and you're being paid to do things, you know.

That is freedom to me.

Um, the financial freedom element is just what underpins it's basically allows how much time you can buy into the future if you need to stop.

If you have an accident or you have to look after a loved one or something like that where you can't do those things every day, then you've got that buffer of cash to stop.

That's financial freedom, but that's the last piece in the puzzle.

Most people chase that rather than optimising the life that they've got right now.

They're doing a job they hate, or they do you know business they're not really they're banging heads with, or they're trying to pretend they're someone they're not, which is effort and energy.

Uh, you know, we're just uh so I I just think if you can be who you want to be and know who you are, and then fill your calendar of things that inspire you and get paid to cover the experiences that you truly want for you and your loved ones, um, and then manage your money in a way where you can just buy time into the future if you need to stop, that's total freedom, you know, total freedom.

And uh a lot of it can be done by just rationalizing your living costs.

I think when we hit COVID, everyone was locked inside their house, and arguably we were less free, but everyone felt freer.

And the reason they felt freer, the reason they felt freer is because they were mobile and they could organise their day in priority of what they wanted to do first, right?

So they could no one was breathing down their neck, they could uh they had this belief that they they didn't need to be in a cubicle office or a geographical location, and they could structure their day how they want without people to a degree, without their boss breathing down their neck or whatever.

And um, there was a survey done, I think it was Hayes, but when when the ability like when the chance to go back into the office came around, there was 56% of people would rather take a pay cut and work from home still than go back to the office.

So the majority of people wanted to less money for more freedom.

And um, that to me says it all.

And everyone got rid of the second car because there was no keeping up with the Joneses, you couldn't go out and show off to anyone, stop buying all the flipping Gucci bags or whatever.

And um, people had a taste of what real freedom is in COVID, and I think they they forget that that is available, you know, it it's it's in closer reach than you think most 100%.

I I'm so glad you said this, and I'll give you an example about my life as well and what I'm optimizing for at the moment, because it's exactly this, right?

In in COVID, business went shut down, right?

Couldn't open bars and restaurants, which I was doing, so we had nothing to do.

So it was like, well, what am I gonna do?

You use hospitality in COVID, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, does it get more stressful than we?

We opened our second site two weeks before the first lockdown.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, it was a lot, it was a lot.

Um just just survived, skin of our teeth, um, grants, all of it.

It was we went there.

It was you know, we had we just about hang on.

Thankfully, we were in extremely popular spots as soon as we reopened, it was rammed.

Um, it wasn't like I feel for the guys that you know were in the small little towns or the back streets and had the little wine bar and stuff because I don't know how the hell they did it.

Um but as soon as I had that moment and I was like, all right, what am I gonna do with myself?

And I spent four weeks playing PlayStation and just like kicking about, and then I'm not that type of person, right?

I was just like I'm going mad, like literally mad.

And so I got out in the garden and I started doing bits around the garden.

And by the end of that year, I'd completely remodell the entire garden.

I taught myself carpentry, horticultural, like I built an entire vegetable patch, had like a whole like greenhouse thing which I built purposely from BQ.

And like I didn't, I never had these skills ever.

I'dn't you wouldn't see me out there before.

And that for me was entirely utter freedom.

I was out there all day from literally 6 a.m.

in the morning and sun come up till it got dark and I couldn't physically do anymore.

And I loved it.

Amazing.

And so now I've bought uh house very recently, and the whole reason for that house is it's got a big enough garden for me to just do it again.

So it's got the vegetable patch in and it's got the greenhouse, and that's already there, it needs a lot of work, and so like that's me building freedom back into it.

And now, like I'm getting back out there in the afternoons.

I like pump all my work into the morning, delegate as much of that away, and then in the afternoons, two, three o'clock, I get out there and spend three, four hours before it gets dark.

And I I'm in my element, man, and I love it.

Like, and it's like time doesn't exist.

I'm just like next job, next job, and I'm just like in the zone.

And I liken it this as well, is that I've built a business where it feels like paying Xbox, and so like I like doing what I do, yeah, and so it doesn't feel like chores and work, and that's okay for me.

And sure, there's tons of bits of the things in the day where I'm doing that.

I'm like, oh god, I really don't want to do this, but then that's why we have a team in place that they do enjoy those bits, so they work on them, or they're very good at it, so they work on them, and you pay them to do that, right?

Yeah, for sure.

There's also um, you know, an element of people wanting to start a business just to prove they can run a business, and it's like you know, if you just got a job that you enjoy, life would be a lot easier.

Um, but that's the first step, isn't it?

Really?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of pressure on people to be, I don't know, hustlers.

Um and I don't I don't like it.

Yeah, social media, man.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't like it.

We don't want to hustle, we want to have grid lives.

That's it.

And that experience that you've got for a little blip of time, you know, make sure that you're optimising for for what's really important to you.

Yeah.

And it doesn't necessarily mean impressing someone on Instagram.

Yeah.

Status games.

We all play them and where cheat debt and Klana and these things have got involved in our lives now.

I mean, if you I you know, where I grew up, I drove around the other day, Council State, near uh St Albans, and uh it was like BMW, BMW, brand new Audi, like Range Rover.

And I thought, this is a councillor state.

How is that possible?

And so it's cheap debt.

And so, like, we're and we've put ourselves in this like we've got to show up mentality without just forgetting about like what truly matters to us and why we're doing this.

Because I guarantee you go inside and they're all probably feeling shit about themselves in some way, not just in that council state, I'm talking everywhere now, like and so like you see it everywhere, right?

And so I you know, and I'm no stranger to this, I've I've been through that myself, and I think like now I'm re-optimizing for the things which provide me value.

I'm nowhere near yet.

There's a big journey to sort of get to that point.

Um, but it feels good again.

And so once you start doing that, you always have to.

As you say, time time shrinks, you know.

It's like when you feel like you can't wait for the day to end, something's wrong, you know.

Um, I don't ever want the day to end.

Every night I'm like, I think I've got to go sleep.

Yeah, you know, it's a complete inconvenience, yeah, you know.

Um, and well that doesn't it?

She's like, What?

How'd you get up so early?

I'm not I can't wait to get up.

Like I literally cannot wait to get going.

Like I've got so many things I want to get done today.

And she's like, and it's starting to rub off on her as well now, and I think she's seeing that, and it you know, it makes it just changes everything.

Yeah, for sure.

But I think one of the big things within that is is that people will naturally say to this, is like, yeah, all right, but you know, you you've you've built up some money, you can do those things.

You you you know, that's a luxury for you at those points.

So if that's your biggest problem, if you're like struggling to pay your bills and you're getting to the end of your month, you know, cost of living, rents are high, etc., and we put that in someone's life, like that's their main worry and big problem right now.

Do you think they should still optimise for the things they want, or do you think solving that to a degree first is a good uh like good thing to sort of start for?

For sure.

Like I know I'm not um you know, I'm not naive to the fact that there is uh it is it's costly, um, and there is a wage uh issue with with the cost of living and everything.

Um but a lot of stress is put on yourself because you're trying to afford things to look the part, right?

Um I've never met anyone personally who hasn't gone through their expenses and thought, you know, I don't need that.

You know, there's stuff that you don't need to buy, right?

There always is.

And the reason you're buying it is to keep up with someone or look the part or you know, be in the club or or whatever.

Um and that tends to go through every single social group from people on the breadline up to people on NECA, right?

Um and a lot of the time you can just reduce if you go through a series of saying like how can I reduce my you know my expenses, just go through your expenses, um point out any hotspots, things that you think, by the hell, I didn't realise I was spending that much on that, and probably coffee, you know, or you know, things like that.

Yeah, that you realize you're spending 90 quid a month on coffee, you know, and you think, wow, that's that's a lot.

Um you can start to go, do you know what?

We can start to uh reduce these down, or we can um do less of them or delete them, um, depending on if they're valuable to you or uh if they are critical.

So there's going to be some valuable things.

Let's just say you go out for a meal with your family and it's where you all connect around the table and you have great conversation and stuff like that.

If that's really valuable to you, it's not critical, but you might just choose to reduce that maybe for like a couple of a couple of times a week or you know, once a month, or whatever.

Um, and put that money that you've saved.

I think you were saying this earlier, pretend you're still paying for the four times, but just put that into assets or you know, learning a skill.

I always think the first thing if you're really struggling to make money is because you haven't invested in your knowledge, you know.

Um, our whole life, uh, the the the standard of the life that we live on our deathbed is all governed by what we've learned and what we've implemented from what we've learned.

So the first step is to pay for knowledge, right?

Uh to learn something that moves you one step closer to where you want to be.

And I see it as this you you come out of school, which is this block of time here, and then you've got all this time left to basically get to your ideal life, which you want to live as long of that as possible in your ideal life, right?

And you want to get there as quickly as possible.

So the quickest way to do that is to find someone who can teach you something that will help you move into that and just prioritize paying them so that you can download their brain in a very short period of time and save years and years and years and years and years of of mistakes and errors and all the rest of it, right?

So rationalise your living costs, put your money into self-development, the self-development will pay you.

You know, there's a great quote uh empty your pockets into your mind, and your mind will fill your pockets.

It's so true.

I've never known that to not be true.

Like I've always allocated 10% of my income to self-development in some way, and there's been periods of time where sometimes it's built up where I haven't had anything to spend it on, and then I'll splurge a load of money on a mastermind or something like that.

Um, or it's been very small, like an audible membership or um a book or something like that.

Just save that five-pound coffee this week, buy a book, you know, that will trigger something because it doesn't just teach you something, it inspires you to grow.

And then you become excited.

Like, you know, you you just mentioned your your partner, your wife, she's starting to get on board.

You know, you you open you have your eyes open to certain possibilities and and what could be.

Um, and that makes you feel free, that makes you feel liberated in itself.

So um and the place to start now, if you haven't got any money, is YouTube and podcasts.

I've learned so much on YouTube.

Yeah, I've learned so much on YouTube.

Literally like entire courses of things, and you know, there I was watching something the other day, I'm like halfway through it, it's about nine hours long.

It's like it's the full course, and you know, and you I'm just interested in it, so I'm learning about it.

And so it's like you can go on there and pick up everything you need to know, and then you can go away and implement those things because that's really important.

Don't just stay in that learning mode, go out there and try and take action and fail because that's how you're gonna learn yourself as well.

Yeah, because you can someone can tell you how to do it, but yeah, or teach what you've learned to other people, and then you you learn even quicker, like you really start to um you know, the the you're explaining what you've learned, you're verbalizing what you've learned, which makes you not only have accountability in your own ability to what you've learned, but also it reinforces the information and you build your own little methodologies and frameworks around what you've learned, and then it becomes unique to you, and then it becomes intellectual property, and then you can go and serve people with that, you know.

Well, that's what this business is.

That's what everyone does.

Everyone does.

Yeah, so this is there's not a business here today that hasn't done that.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And that like I would love to know when it comes to like building wealth, because you've you know you've done fantastically well and you've done it in different ways.

Why do you think we struggle with that patience and the discipline to create wealth for ourselves?

Well, we struggle to to because everyone is after that get rich quick, get get rich quick thing, and then you explain index funds to them and they say, Oh, 30 years, like I don't know who I'm gonna be in 30 years, or I haven't got enough money to do that, or I can't do that.

My I'm from X, Y, and Z.

Yeah.

And so, like, how do we get around this?

Like, because as we spoke about earlier with the pyramid, you've got the bottom, which is savings, then it's index funds, and then it's individual stock picking, and that's what's available to you, yeah, but it's most of Britain sits at at that bottom of the pyramid, and they never take the step up.

Yeah, and I wonder why.

Um, it's not sexy, it's not interesting, they're not interested in it.

Um and again, they're trying to do it for this freedom for a for a quick growth.

It's the way I look at money, right, is human beings are the only people that believe in money.

We created it, right?

And there's only one way to get money, and that's from another person.

Another human has to give you money, right?

And there's two ways of getting it from them.

You either serve them where they have a fair exchange and you give you know, you get paid, um, or you beat them at a skill, like a poker tournament or uh trading or football or darts or whatever, right?

Um, which is a zero-sum game.

It's much more inspiring and fulfilling to do the the first one, all right, and easy to do the first one.

So if you can start doing something by serving someone, but also doing it in a way that is aligned with what you love, like you know, maybe your greenhouse and things like that, if you if you really picked up a hobby like that in lockdown, say, there'll be th ways you can serve people doing that.

And when they can pay you to do what you love, that's when you step into it not feeling like a job.

And you don't think about investing, you don't think about index funds, you don't think about chasing Bitcoin or anything like that, because you're just getting paid to do what you enjoy.

The important part is is understanding that you have to to buy financial freedom, you have to take a portion of that income and buy assets with it.

That's it.

And an asset is something you either create or buy, and you can create assets in this business.

So if you're doing greenhouses, the asset in the business would be a system or a team member or category of tomatoes quickly or whatever, yeah, and something that makes it more passive.

So if you can create that, you might not even want to go into stock picking because you've built like Ray Crock at McDonald's, he built a system.

Why would he invest in index funds?

He's now got a system that's churning that he doesn't have any time in, and it's churning in the money.

So I think people neglect the fact that assets can be created as well as bought.

You know, you can create a really solid asset in your in your life, and a lot of that comes down to the time study and then delegating things that are uninspiring, and then owning and accepting the fact that you'll probably always want to do things that inspire you, so therefore just do that forever and get paid for it, you know, and then you've created an amazing asset.

Um, if there was two or three things that you could do every day without being paid, what are they?

How can you step into that and then delegate everything else and systemise everything else?

I go back to the the the car wash.

If that was my life now, I could literally still be knocking at uh at doors, just collecting money and booking things.

All right, that's not the most inspiring thing for me now, but I could potentially get paid just to do that forever, you know.

Um unless I decided to go, do you know what?

I just like um booking people in.

I don't like taking the money, so I'll pay someone to go and take the money, and then I'll just book them in.

And then you eventually you end up in this place where you're just doing one thing and being paid, you know.

But it's it's it's sacrificing some of that profit for freedom, and and that is that's what people struggle with because they go into something that they don't like in the first place, or they don't build efficient systems that so they start to resent the business or they resent the job.

Um just be aware of that.

Like as you're starting a business, be aware.

The EMIF, the book E Myth by Michael Gerber.

I don't know if you've read that brilliant.

It's just amazing.

Like, read that.

If anyone's thinking about starting a business, just read that book first.

Um and just be aware that you're gonna be doing something, you're gonna want to do something for the rest of your life.

If you can be paid to do it, amazing.

But sitting on a beach with cocktails, that is not gonna be a life.

You're not gonna want to do that, trust me.

It's the number one we did we surveyed our audience, and that was the number one response.

It was overwhelming, something in the 50 something percent, and there were seven answers.

So a lot was I just want to sit on a beach.

Wow.

Which is nuts, right?

But people that say that are the ones that want to escape their life, they can't fathom doing anything else.

You know, they they want to get away from their job so bad.

So it just goes to show how many people hate their job.

It's 91%.

Wow.

It's 91% hate their job or don't dislike a large part of what they do.

Right.

And so that's sad to me.

Yeah.

So it means that we have a problem of you know, understanding ourselves and like where the hell do we want to be?

Or we've got cushti with the paycheck, and we haven't really taken the time to explore that about ourselves.

And that's why you see the dad and the red sports car leave the wife and go off and do this crazy thing and get the 21-year-old girlfriend, or you know, the the the wife leaves the husband because they haven't figured out who they're who they are and say they haven't chased a dream together, or even on their own.

And so it's sad, but that's what's happening.

I think what happens is the more people resent their job, the more they want to spend their money on an escape.

So they'll have a quick fix, a holiday, big lavish holiday.

I need the shot, I need to treat myself, you know, and that's like a it's catch 22, really.

You're stuck in a rut.

That is a real rut that people get stuck in.

Um, I do think employers uh are to have a lot to answer for in terms of people unhappy, though.

Like one of the things that I I don't think many employers understand is they go through different staff and they go for a churn rate and people leave and all that, right?

But if you understand that people only go to work to get money to do more of the stuff they they want, might which might be greenhouses and garden, when you understand that, you can reframe the contract so that you tailor it to each person's values.

So we do a bespoke contract, so we do a whole value assessment on what their highest values are.

We figure out that they like driving their bike or cars or whatever and spending time on helping people or whatever, and then we write a bespoke contract that that helps them to see how by helping us get more of what we want, they get more of what they want.

And if you can do that, it's not really about money.

You know, they don't they won't chase a pay rise, it's a value exchange.

Yes, a value exchange, and they can see by helping you, they're gonna get to fulfill what they want, right?

So people only go to work to get money to pay for the their their values, uh, and if you can help them see that you're they're doing that with you, then they will be much happier in their job.

Um so true.

So true.

Why do we do this?

It has me mad.

It's crazy.

At least there's some of us like trying to like fly this flag and and tell people that this is what they can do because it's so possible.

It is.

And you know, I found it really difficult the other day.

Um, I listened to um Professor Green talking on um James Smith's new podcast, the problem of James Smith.

And I he said something which I just didn't agree with, and I I found it really difficult.

It's like, well, you know, if you're from these underprivileged locations and you you find it, you know, you're finding it really difficult and you're working free jobs and you can't get out of the rut.

Um I understand that, but then you also can still take some steps to try and improve your life in other areas.

Like even if it's 20 minutes a week, like it's still gonna end up adding up over time.

And if you're just not and you accept that this is what's happen, this is what it is, and this is how life is now gonna be for me, and I can't go and get these things, well, then you are gonna end up in being unhappy.

And so that's that's what I I just found it really difficult when he said that.

Because I agree with a lot of what he said, but um, I just don't agree with that.

Because it's not a positive message to to humankind, really.

I mean, I was I was um Channel 4 uh emailed me the other day and they asked me to be on this documentary with Gary Stevenson.

And uh do you know Gary Stevenson?

So I suppose I think if you don't by now, you've been under a so I spoke at the uh London Trader Show and the idea they were gonna come bring the crew, he was gonna come meet me, and then we were gonna have a debate and a discussion, right?

Which they did.

It was two weeks ago on Friday.

And um you had a chat with it.

Yeah, yeah.

So we did we did this whole documentary for Channel 4.

Oh, I'd like to uh it comes out in early next year, so February, March next year.

Oh, interesting.

And um did they let you say your peace?

Yeah, how much of that they'll show, I don't know, but we recorded the whole conversation anyway.

So uh so um anyway, the the the thing was he's promoting this idea that unless you're born into a rich family, you're screwed, basically.

And he don't believe that, and no one believes that because look at him, you know, how can so what I'm witnessing he's from Ilford, isn't he?

He's from Ilford, he had a hard upbringing, he's a millionaire, right?

As he keeps telling everyone.

But the thing is, he has had I've I've watched that guy have three breaks from YouTube for burnout.

He's like, I'm having a break, it's too much, you know, all this kind of stuff.

And as I said to you earlier, when you're talking about things you believe in and you're inspired to talk about, you don't want the day to end.

I don't burn out, I don't want to stop talking about this stuff ever, right?

Because I believe in the message and it's a positive message.

He doesn't believe what he's promoting.

He's now in the thick of it, in too deep, and he's got the this media thing narrative going where he's he's now not himself, so he's gonna burn out because he's got this mechanism inside of him, this little voice going, No, you don't believe that.

Yeah, stop.

His views, his views, his views.

His views, and now he's a slave to the to that.

And um he looks very sad.

He looks very ill, he looks very He does, he does.

It looks sad.

When since he came back recently, I watched a video of him the other day and I was like, Oh, you don't look right, man.

Don't no um something's gnawing away at him and deeply and just he's got a guilt complex around money, that's what it is.

Right, and um yeah, he needs to deal with that.

It's not Gory Sutherland said, just go out and spend some fucking money, Gary.

I was like, I love that.

Part of the inequality problem is buying some new trainers in the new in the in a local business, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah, it's like yeah, come on, man.

Um but a lot of what he says.

Make sense, and there's been some predictions he's made that have gone bang on right, and so he's an extremely smart person, he knows exactly what he's saying.

Um, it's the message for the people that don't understand that are buying into him as the messiah, which is just incredibly dangerous.

It's victim mentality, victims are buying into it, accepting that that oh, it's easier to listen to Gary and say that's why we are like we are than it is to take accountability.

Gary is right, you know, like and uh you know you're hanging your hat on the wrong horse.

But it's a load of socialists that want to get paid to dye their hair blue and do nothing with it, like honestly.

You'd be surprised, you'd be surprised.

Like some of my friends who are definitely not socialists are like love him and have had to like have a lot of people.

Do you know what?

His first why his initial message he was bang on.

He was basically talking about dormant wealth, you know, Russian people buying a big commercial office block and it's empty and they're just in Russia, and that's increasing our house prices because we've got nowhere for our people to go, right?

Yeah, that was valid.

He was speaking about uh what I like while I first came across him, and I was like, Wow, you nailed that.

It was the the capital creation in COVID and the money moving back out of the hands of us to the corporations and the rich, and I was like, Well, you nailed that, yeah.

And then all of a sudden it was tax them, and then I was like, Yeah, we're going here.

But I always think about why money was created, right?

There's been in the history of Tibet, there's been three times where they've equally, because it was the inequality was so vast, they equally distributed all the capital again to everyone in Tibet.

And within 10 months, it ended up in the richest peoples again, right?

Because there's people, so money was created.

Um, let's just say money wasn't created, and I had a rip in my in my jumper, and you've spent a year learning how to sew a thread, and I'll say, Oh mate, look, can you just sew this up?

Right?

And then you say to me, Oh yeah, yeah, because uh I'll do that.

And then when my mum needs open heart surgery, you can quickly uh do that, right?

It's not quite the same value, right?

So there's always people that want to learn and work harder than others.

So money was there, it was created as a fair exchange.

It was like you can take as much of this as you want, as much as you're willing to serve other people, and it was the fairest game in town.

It is the fairest game in town, money.

Then people start to abuse it, and people want to work hard, people want to go, oh well, let's create well, let's create a tax system for people who are unable to work so we can all have a fair deal, you know, because they've got a real problem and they can't work and what have you.

Um, but then people abuse the tax system and they're like, oh, well, I don't want to work, so I'm gonna see if I can get paid this tax thing without having to actually get off my arse, you know, and still have the Audi and the Ferrari and all this kind of stuff.

That's when it all goes tits up.

And the problem is the government aren't managing that properly.

That's it.

If they just managed that properly, you know, we'd have a everyone have a fair deal again.

But uh, unfortunately, it's much easier to go, oh, this is why I'm not making money because rich people are taking it all.

I mean, it doesn't even make sense.

Yeah, and you'll get the numbers as well.

Rich people take money from serving people, that's it.

I've never met a billionaire who hasn't served millions of people.

That that's a fact.

So you you get what you are willing to put out in the world.

Yeah, it's also the mentality of like, well, they uh billionaire, you know, retail owner.

Well, what what did you think they started with a hundred stores world?

Yeah, they started with 30,000 staff, yeah.

It doesn't work like that, and so they've built up to that, but you're not willing to as soon as they go over 10 stores, are they now evil?

Like, but what where's the line there?

And why do we think like that?

Yeah, I just find that I find that difficult and hopefully that will change, but I just don't ever see any.

Yeah, but you know, they get I get with loads and like billions and billions and billions, they start to change their some of them try and seek new hires, and then it becomes like a power race, totally.

And and they link that to to you know, they've they forget that about the service that they've given to the world, and they kind of just say, Oh, rich people are evil.

You're just not seeing it for what it really is, you know.

Yeah, 100%.

Jason, I've loved this.

Um, the book out now?

It is, yeah.

It came out uh in July 25, and um it went to number one in seven countries, four categories, been absolutely blown away by all the feedback, it's been incredible.

And the audible version is out on the 19th of November.

Oh, wicked.

So uh oh cool.

So if anyone's listening to this after then, it's out.

I've never seen a book on Amazon have five stars from like it's got five stars.

Everyone I've seen is like Max is four point nine, but yours is five stars.

So people really are loving it, and uh I've got a copy here which I'm gonna take away with me.

Um I'm pretty excited to talk into it, man.

So um hats off and I've loved this.

Thank you for coming on.

Is there anywhere else you want to send anyone as well?

Um if you've enjoyed anything I've spoken about, I just want to, you know, help this message of always free get out.

So alwaysfree.com.

You know, you can get the book there, listen to the podcast there, um, fill your boots.

Wick it, man.

Thank you very much for coming on.

Thanks for having me.