can you please give me an SEO driven show notes for this episode? Cary J. Mogerman (00:00)

thing that I'm not certain that our profession does as well as it could is speak in plain language to

Morgan L. Stogsdill (00:09)

you should not feel bad asking your lawyer why. And you should not feel bad if you don't understand the way that they're speaking to you to say, hey, can you just break it down? Can you give me this in layman's terms?

How Not To Suck At Divorce (00:19)

mediation is an area where getting curious about the why can really help

Why is

he so quick to say no on this? Why is she so emotional when this comes up? These are areas where I want you to be hyper observant, bring those questions to your attorney, and then it's your attorney's job to get strategic.

Andrea Rappaport (00:46)

If you're going through a divorce or thinking about getting a divorce, this is the podcast for you. Hosted by Morgan Stogsdill, the head of family law at the largest family law firm in the country and comedian Andrea Rappaport, you're gonna laugh, you're gonna learn, you're gonna avoid major divorce mistakes. This is How Not to Suck at Divorce.

Andrea Rappaport (01:07)

If you're anything like me and you tend to go on a hole when you're suffering, I've got news for you. There's a better way to do things.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (01:15)

Rather than hiding in a hole, your divorce besties want you to connect with those in your circle, especially as we head into the holiday season.

Andrea Rappaport (01:22)

Don't isolate yourself. You are coming up on a time when you and your kids will need community more than ever. So how do we want you to connect? By making a tiny bit of effort and actually send out holiday cards this year.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (01:37)

We are partnering with Truly Engaging, a card company that has truly won my heart over. I have personally been using them for years and believe me when I tell you, these are the nicest cards on the market.

Andrea Rappaport (01:49)

Yeah, Truly Engaging is actually the only company with a premium line that has both raised foil and the glossy varnish, which is deliciously luxurious.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (01:59)

And I know what you're thinking. Don't worry. It is not wildly expensive, especially not for our listeners.

Andrea Rappaport (02:05)

Connect with your community with a keepsake worth holiday card. And no, we aren't telling you to write, and I think I want a divorce on the back of the card. Although, ⁓ my God, if you do have the balls to write that, please send me that card because I would die.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (02:19)

No, don't write that. But do check out Truly Engaging, direct link and promo code in our show notes.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (02:26)

You know, Andrea, the biggest takeaway I hope that people get from listening to this podcast is that they make better decisions, being proactive and not reactive.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (02:34)

but being proactive about your divorce can come with a lot of really big, uncomfortable feelings, especially when it pertains to your kids.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (02:44)

I couldn't agree more, but that's why I want you to consider using the co-parenting app to help with communication. Not just any co-parenting app, there are plenty out there, but not all are the gold standard. We want you to look at the most court-respected app, Our Family Wizard.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (02:58)

You guys, please just visit the landing page that we created together. There is a ton of useful information and when you're ready to make the next step, our family wizard is ready to support you.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (03:10)

Exactly right. So visit ourfamilywizard.com backslash not suck 20 to save 20 % off your first year of the essentials package.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (03:19)

Half of our listeners are going to want to punch me in the face after I say what I'm about to say.

I like how you didn't respond. ⁓

Morgan L. Stogsdill (03:30)

I'm I'm

waiting and I'm afraid.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (03:32)

Okay. After six years of battling and having one of the most challenging co-parenting relationships known to man, I had my ex-husband over for dinner on Friday night.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (03:48)

What? I love this from a divorce lawyer.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (03:50)

Yeah. And we're getting back together. No, I'm just kidding.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (03:54)

Now that's funny.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (03:55)

That is funny. We're not getting back together. We are never, ever, ever getting back together. ⁓ But we had dinner for the kids, with the

With my husband, my ex-husband, all the husbands came and sat down at one dinner table for a very wholesome Shabbat dinner on Friday night. And I'll tell you how it happened. So this was birthed out of a week of kids having some struggles and me and dad saying, you know what? We got to get on the same page here.

What we've done for the last several years clearly hasn't worked. So we need to try something new. And do you know who was driving the ship on that was my husband. My husband was the one who invited my ex-husband over for dinner. Now, I am telling you this story because this is now six years out. So it can happen for you.

It wasn't like the most joyful dinner we've ever had.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (05:02)

I was going to say, was poison served? What did you, I mean, if I were him, I would be afraid of what you were serving me.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (05:05)

No.

No, it was fine. It was fine. And the reason why I'm leading with this is because we got a lot of pushback from last week's episode with John Basford talking about how you can look at co-parenting through a different lens and how he and his ex-wife have a really positive relationship. And the pushback was from people who unfortunately

are and were in my camp where they're not able to do that. And I have talked to a lot of these people in our private community and I've said, listen, I hear you. I was right there. There were even moments in this episode that we just recorded last week where I'm like, ew, fuck, John, everyone's going to hate you for saying that. But it's so important that we try to keep an open mind and know that even the most horrific assholes

have the ability at some point, maybe, to get it together and know that it could go right back to sucking. You you gotta just ride the wave. ⁓ But for what it's worth, and I always try to be honest on this show, ⁓ you all know that I survived something horrible, and I'm not saying that my ex-husband is this like, totally changed human being, but...

He and I did get it together for a ⁓ night.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (06:33)

I'm impressed. I'm super impressed. And look here, this is what I do every day. This is my life and I see it every day. I know we got to, it wasn't just pushback. We got a lot of hate mail. People were angry about the episode and it was really the people that are in those really tough co-parenting relationships. Those are the people that were angry about last episode because they're unable to see a world in which they can communicate or work with this other person because the other person is so difficult.

And we hear you. We have been there. Andrea has walked that walk every day. She might be still walking that walk, but for Shabbat dinner on Friday. And this is normal stuff. So our episodes are meant for everybody. And what we want you to know is keep an open mind. You might have a horrible day with your co-parent today, but six years down the road, maybe you're inviting them in for dinner. And if you can't imagine that now, that's okay.

but it could still happen. And that's why we do this show and we do every type of episode on this show so that you have ideas and you try not to suck at divorce as much as possible.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (07:40)

And I encourage you guys, if you couldn't get through that whole episode because you decided that this wasn't for you, go back and listen to the end of it where you can hear how important it is to control your nervous system when you want to fight with somebody. And again, I am not saying that everything is going to be perfect and hunky-dory

here on out with my co-parent, no.

Stay tuned, stay on the line with me. I'm sure something will happen in the next hour, but a win is a win. A win is a win, and right now we're going to take the wins. Right now, we're actually going to get into a conversation that's going to help people who are in the thick of the divorce process and could be stuck on the question why. The question why can either really help you

if you're using why strategically, or it can paralyze you and end up costing you a lot more money and a lot more of a headache. So we're bringing on a really special guest to get into this today.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (08:53)

Today we are joined by Carey Mogerman. He is one of the most highly regarded divorce lawyers in Missouri. And you know what, I could sit here and read you his entire bio, but I'm just gonna sum it up. This guy is

Cary J. Mogerman (09:06)

No, continue.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (09:08)

real deal, okay? He's won all the awards. He writes, he teaches, he speaks. Basically, friends, you're gonna wanna pay very close attention to what he has to say.

and it is an absolute honor to have him on as our guest today. So, Keri Mogerman, welcome to How Not to Suck at Divorce.

Cary J. Mogerman (09:31)

Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. I'm a fan of the cast and I'm thrilled to be here with you.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (09:36)

All right, Carrie, I am really into this topic today because I love using the question why when I'm getting under the hood of a car with any cases that I'm bringing in and talking to. But if a client is getting stuck in the why, it can actually make things a lot harder and more expensive for them. So I want to start there. And some of the questions that kind of pop into my mind of what clients say about the why is, why is this happening to me?

Why is he or she acting so crazy? Why are they filing these motions? So Carrie, what do you see when clients are getting stuck in asking themselves or you why?

Cary J. Mogerman (10:16)

Well, I think it's interesting. It's a really good question. And some of the mystery is not there when people, they know where they're headed and they know they've been headed this way for a while. But to me, the, the, heartbreaking ones are when you get a potential client who did not see this coming. I mean, it just totally came out of left field and it's very challenging for them. And usually, as you know, the other party is probably much farther down.

track emotionally and mentally. And this, this individual is not even out of the gate yet. And it's, really challenging for them and it's hard for them to accept. I actually, I had a client once tell me, I feel like I'm living somebody else's life right now. And I thought that was a really good way to put it because I bet that's exactly how it feels. If you didn't see this coming for whatever reason, and it comes out of the blue and your spouse sits you down and says, here's what I've decided. And you didn't see

we mentioned, the other party is down the track. They want this done yesterday because they've already processed it and they've already sought counsel and they've already gotten all their questions answered.

And that's really tough.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (11:25)

What I see that first kind of why leading into is, okay, so then you have the people who are in that camp of like, why is this happening? I did not see this coming. And obviously there's only so much I'm assuming that as attorneys you guys can do to catch them up because it is happening, right? And that's kind of work that they need to be doing with a therapist. But how do you help redirect a client who is

for lack of a better expression, kind of wasting their money and your time by going around and around on these whys of things that you can't control, right? Why is she acting so crazy? Why is he such a dick?

Cary J. Mogerman (12:04)

right?

I think you have to be more directive as the lawyer. You have to be empathetic, but you have to be directed. And I think you have to make sure that they understand the risk of not getting on board as soon as they can.

try to get on board and understand this is where it's going. A colleague of mine is a great scholar of stoic philosophy. And I've learned a lot from him

one of the kernels of truth is that we can only control ourselves and how we respond to things. We can't control the external environment. We can't control.

what was decided by the other party. And I think that's important to try to impart to clients. If it's really out of left field, then they're not even in therapy. They're not seeing a counselor. And I ask them, do you have a confidant? Is there someone who you trust with your last penny? ⁓ That's a person you should be talking to and you should find a good mental health professional, a therapist to help you kind of work through it yourself.

and try to figure out if you can pick up any clues or have a little greater awareness than maybe you presently have as to why we're headed this way. Because I do think it makes it easier to accept as you go down the line, if you develop an awareness.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (13:26)

I always say that the unfortunate part is that really time is the only thing that heals people and And it there are those people that are blindsided So when they're asking about wise where do I see that a lot in the beginning of a divorce process is if you've been There's an affair of some sort There's a lot of why is there and there's a lot of time that unfortunately has to pass by to get them really invested into the process And it's kind of like a stage of grief to move forward

And when we say that why is not helpful in that part, what we're meaning there is usually when you're saying why at the beginning, like why are they acting like this to your lawyer, you're kind of wasting money a little bit. Now your lawyer, any good lawyer is going to listen to you and try to work through it with you, but those kinds of questions generally are better for a

And I think that there's a why question that's, and we're gonna get into when why's are really important in your case.

But one of the questions that I said is, why is she filing these motions? I mean, that is a question that's totally relevant, appropriate for your lawyer, and something that should be discussed. So we just want to make sure that if you are asking those why questions, and there are lots of great times to do that, that you're getting the most out of your money.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (14:44)

Right. So again, what I want to just make sure everybody walks away with from this first part of the conversation is that your attorney's job is to help you navigate the logistics of this process, whether you like it or not this process is happening.

The train's leaving the station.

So you're either going to be on the train or it's going to be dragging you by your hair extensions down the tracks. It's not waiting for you. And I know that that might sound aggressive and I'm sorry, but the sooner that you can say, OK, it really doesn't matter why this is happening. It's happening and I've got to figure it out. But there are some times that asking the question why can be

Cary J. Mogerman (15:07)

That's right.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (15:30)

really helpful. So why don't we get into that? Because Morgan is probably one of the more creative attorneys that I know who uses why in a very like strategic way. So let's get into that first and then I want to hear what Carrie thinks.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (15:50)

Okay, so unpopular opinion as well, and we've talked about it on this show, is that most

Cary J. Mogerman (15:55)

That's our lot

in life, in professional life, isn't it? Sharing unpopular but necessary opinions.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (15:58)

Yeah

Thank you, Carrie, for finally someone backing myself and Andrea up. We are just constantly fielding hate mail, but here we are. We're still plugging along.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (16:09)

Yes.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (16:11)

Unpopular opinion is that if you're going to get through your divorce and get through it well, your lawyer has to be strategic. Your lawyer has to play a game of chess to get you where you need to be. And

That's when your why questions are super relevant and super important and well spent on your lawyer because you're one to be asking, why are we doing this? What is exactly our plan and why? When you know the why from your lawyer, most of the time, if it's a good plan, you're going to say after you ask the why question, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I feel very comfortable in this plan. So those are when the why questions, when you're going into potentially mediation.

You want to be asking, why are we doing this? Why are we doing it this way? Or litigation. Those are very important questions to be asking.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (17:02)

add something before Carrie responds because I kind of contradict something that we said before, but I want to make sure we speak to this. Whereas I don't want you to get stuck in why is she behaving so crazy? Why is he such a dick? There is a place to analyze behaviors if it's going to help you understand what somebody really wants. Are they behaving this way because

you are threatening something that is very important to them. And can that thing be negotiated or possibly used as leverage in mediation in a strategic way? I am now an officially attorney. So there we have it.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (17:45)

Welcome. At least you can be an attorney. Kim Kardashian can't, but you are one.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (17:49)

⁓

God, don't get me started on that show again. Okay, Carrie, what are your thoughts on that?

Cary J. Mogerman (17:54)

Well, I think the why is important. And I think

thing that I'm not certain that our profession does as well as it could is speak in plain language to

clients. know, a divorce client is a different animal. It's not a bank or an institutional client that may even have a litigation budget and they're in legal transactions all the time. Most divorcing people, this is their first exposure to the legal

process. And so these words trip off of our tongues, you know, we're going to get the case continued, we're going to do this, we're going to file a motion, we're going to do it. And none of those terms mean anything to a lay person who's not familiar with the adversarial nature of litigation and what litigation is. So it's not helpful in the first instance or the second instance or even the third meeting to keep talking like that because

They will not understand the why and they feel as exposed after the third meeting as at the first. They have to know what you mean by we're going to file a motion. going to ask the court to do X, Y, or Z. And when we do that, we'll send a document to the court letting them know that, and then we'll schedule a date where we get to go see the judge and have the discussion and advocate for that. We're going to continue the case.

What does that mean? How long is it going to continue? Well, or we're going to go to an adjourn day or all these other terms of art in our archaic nomenclature. ⁓ Clients are not sophisticated in that way about this process. It's just as we don't. I could not open an anatomy book and tell you what all that means. So I think a big part of our job is to really try to bring down how we communicate to the client about.

each step of the way.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (19:48)

Carrie, that

you bring up such a good point there, and I just have to jump in because I want the clients or the people listening to this to not be ashamed if your lawyer is speaking to you in a language that you have no idea what's going on. OK, it's exactly what Carrie said. Andrea and myself, we're not going into surgery and pretending like we can say half of the medicines or prescription medicines that everyone's prescribing after the surgery. We can't. So.

Cary J. Mogerman (19:59)

That's it. Good night.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (20:14)

There is no way as somebody who might be jumping into the divorce ring for the first time, you are not going to understand everything your lawyer is saying. But there should be no hesitation to one,

you should not feel bad asking your lawyer why. And you should not feel bad if you don't understand the way that they're speaking to you to say, hey, can you just break it down? Can you give me this in layman's terms?

Like, what are we looking at? Do not feel bad. It's actually a good way to make your lawyer realize, oh,

I should really kind of back up, explain this better because we have better clients in general. We do better for the client when we're on the same page. And if we're not, then we need to be told we're not.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (20:54)

In speaking in terms of being cost effective, what is the best way for a client to advocate for themselves and say, Carrie, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Why is this happening? ⁓

Cary J. Mogerman (21:09)

That's that would say it right there. That's what

I need. That's the call to action I need to understand that you don't know and I'm not doing a good job of communicating it. So there's no reason not to do that.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (21:22)

Are you a fan of people emailing? Are you a fan of people getting on the phone with you? We hear all different sides. What do you like?

Cary J. Mogerman (21:28)

I like what works for the client.

we do have a tendency to rely on email, maybe more than we should.

I think that there's something, there's a warmth that can come through in the actual conversations and a building of the attorney-client relationship that occurs. If you do use the phone and have some phone calls now and then, I think the client appreciates it. It's a real time conversation as opposed to here are my four questions and here are my four answers and then, you know. But all that I think is important and I think it's important for the lawyer to understand when it's...

important to have a meeting, even if it's a video conference like this. And it's important for the client to feel comfortable saying, I think I need an hour with you or a meeting with you. So we can kind of walk through this and the lawyer needs to be open to that. mean, this is our job.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (22:18)

So for all the clients here who are listening, here's what I want you to do. If it's a simple question, right? Can you remind me, Carrie, Morgan, why we're doing this? Then that's an email. If it's a more complex why, then I suggest you send a one line email that says, I have some questions about this process. Could we please schedule a time for a phone call?

Then what I want you to do is I want you to go back and use the guide that's on our website, which is the most effective way to communicate with your attorneys. I want you to download that guide and I want you to look at all the information we give you on how to prepare for an attorney phone call. Because listen, Morgan, Carrie, I think that getting on the phone is great, but I'm going to be real with you guys. They're paying for that time. And it's expensive. And a lot of people can think,

Oh, I don't want to get on a call with my attorney because that's $325. Well, it could be. Or you can make the very most out of that money if you are organized with what you're going to talk about. So don't just get on the phone with someone and say, oh, well, I kind of have questions and I'm sorry, my head's kind of all over the place right now and no, you need to be prepared and make the most of this time and then.

it could be the best money spent.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (23:41)

And that's, think, the point of this episode is asking the why question is not bad when it relates to mediation, strategy, litigation of your case. And it really isn't bad in the beginning when you're just upset as long as you're willing to pay for it. When it is, I went bad for lack of a better term, when you don't want to pay all that money to basically use your lawyer as the therapist. That's what we're telling you. I do have clients, I would say, that are

very high end and they don't care if they want to use me as their therapist. That's okay. But I also have clients that are very cost conscious and they don't, they should not be calling me and saying, you know, why is he doing this to me? Why is this happening to me? Because they're processing their grief through their lawyer. That's more of a therapist phone call. And that's what we're trying to do on this episode is tell you when you can save dollars and that's a place you could save dollars.

Cary J. Mogerman (24:33)

And when you send the lawyer, a, email that's, you know, five pages, single space that you typed at three in the morning. We know what that is. We know you're not sleeping. We know that these things are taking up all your bandwidth and they're, they're, they're in your mind. And the lawyer, I think needs to pick up the phone or send an email back. I got your email. I have read it. You have raised a lot of important questions. Let's schedule a time.

for a phone call or a Zoom or a meeting where we can talk about all of it. And that's effective. I have not seen that resource that you mentioned on the website, but that sounds like a really ⁓ smart resource, how to communicate with your attorney. I'll look at that.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (25:16)

You

know, it was born out of, you know, we so often talk to people about, this is what you should do. And then we realize, well, wait, they don't know. Nobody knows how to send an effective email because to your point earlier, Carrie, the average person, or not even the average person, most people getting a divorce are not legal experts. So naturally, you're going to just rattle things off the top of your head. You're not thinking in terms of billable hours. And we are tasking people.

Cary J. Mogerman (25:25)

they know.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (25:45)

with making very big important decisions when they are at the worst mental and emotional state that they have maybe ever been in. So we try to help people through this. I want to get back to mediation because

mediation is an area where getting curious about the why can really help you.

Why is

he so quick to say no on this? Why is she so emotional when this comes up? These are areas where I want you to be hyper observant, bring those questions to your attorney, and then it's your attorney's job to get strategic.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (26:26)

That's actually a really good point, Andrea. So nobody knows your spouse better than you do. You know their trigger points. You know what makes them tick. Those are the things. Those are not money wasters at all for a good creative lawyer. Those are things that your good creative lawyer wants to know. What bothers them? Where are they going to dig in most in mediation, in litigation? We as lawyers, when we're negotiating, we might see certain things and be like, ⁓ that's kind of

quite the response to something that seems very simple. Is there more to it? We might ask the client. But my point there is, if you know something's going to trigger or something really means the world to them when you're going in to negotiate, you want to tell your lawyer about that in advance. That is not stupid information that your lawyer doesn't want to know. No, we want to know that because that's how we settle cases because it always is so important. And the only way to settle a case is to know what each side really

really needs and what really matters to them.

Cary J. Mogerman (27:25)

I think that's right. If you think about the process, you're married 15 years or 20 years to this person. Who knows you better than any other person on the face of the earth at this point and knows everything about you? It's your spouse. And you're at war with this person now who knows everything about you. So you're a client, it feels very exposed and understandably so. So there's a natural tendency to gird thy loins.

in any part of the process, but we need to know ⁓ those

so what I do is I have ⁓ a, like a marital history interview

let's take an hour. Let's start from when you first met. What were your circumstances? What were the other party's circumstances? Where were you working? Where was the other party working? How did this pick up? Were you in school? What were you studying? And then inevitably you find in this interview little pieces of information that bear upon all kinds of things. Character of

property, marital or separate, commitments to paying for the cost of the family while the other party is pursuing a higher education. All these things that are relevant in an equitable distribution state,

Morgan L. Stogsdill (28:41)

I agree.

I want to give the listeners a real life example. So for instance,

when it's really important to tell those dirty details, not even dirty details, but the really hard-hitting details and why it matters. I had a client once who basically came in, a healthy marital estate, kids, et cetera. It was a woman. And she said, listen, I know this is crazy. She kept talking about they had a great amount of money in the bank, but all that the husband cared about was money. And it was so, so cheap.

everything, watching every dollar that went out, everything she did, even though they had plenty of money. And she just felt so controlled. And that, and so I went down this rabbit hole of like, well, let's talk about that. You you have all this money in the bank and she's like, yeah, we can't go on vacation unless we go to somewhere that points can pay for because it doesn't matter how much money we have in the bank. We can't ⁓ fly unless we have points that can pay for it.

So this person, this husband was very, very conscientious of money and very worried about it at all times. What I did, the why, asking the why to settle that case is I knew that the more pressure we could put on him of fees, of costs, of what it looks like if we don't settle in mediation, how more expensive it's going to get for him, that would make the pressure rise.

And when the pressure is rising and the money is out there, that might make him take a quicker settlement. And it worked. So those, mean, that's more broad brush, but that's what we're talking about, why those little details matter so much when we're talking about strategy.

as a client who's listening to this, if you are the one feeling this loss of control that's putting you into a tailspin, we as lawyers want to know that because then we can explain to you the why and the what. So why are we doing what we're doing now knowing that you're in this tailspin and what exactly are we doing to get you the results that we want? So if we don't know you're in the tailspin and we don't know why you're in this tailspin, it's hard for us as lawyers to get you out of that tailspin.

Cary J. Mogerman (30:57)

And we need to know it. We need to know it because we can usually talk you out of it. Most people don't realize that there's probably not a single thing that's going to occur in their divorce or a single decision that they're ever going to have to make in their case, that they have to make in a split second.

you get served, you don't even know it's coming. You think you've got to do something yesterday and it's got to be totally discombobulating. And I think the lawyer has to bring the client to an understanding that this is a process. We're dealing with basically a public agency that's overworked and overloaded if we're still in the courts. so there's going to be plenty of time.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (31:34)

We all think that decisions have to be made immediately. We all do. I mean, and that's just like a human thing, you know? Even if somebody sends me a link to something on Amazon, if my husband sends me a link to something and he's like, I like this rug, what do you think? Why is it that we think I have to respond immediately as if there's like a ticking bomb about to go off, right?

in my mind, I'm like, immediately I have to give an answer.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (32:00)

I have jealousy and I don't know if you feel like this too. You know those people that you text and they just don't respond for like hours or maybe a day, yeah or ever. I have jealousy about those people and I wonder how their mind doesn't like freak out like mine does because I'm the same way. We have been programmed same way.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (32:07)

ever.

Cary J. Mogerman (32:19)

the same way too.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (32:21)

what's funny is, especially when we don't want to communicate with a person, if the question we're getting is not something we like, it's so hard for us to say, OK, hang on. We got to take a minute here before I respond. We want so badly to write back, you don't understand, and da-da-da-da. Or if your attorney says, hey, this was what the response was from opposing counsel, take a minute.

digest it and then we'll talk, we do the exact opposite. You didn't even read the part about take a minute and digest it and we'll talk tomorrow. No, you are making a decision now. You're already in your car driving to your attorney's office and then you're ready to slash your ex's tires because now you're going scorched earth. It is so hard for us to slow down and to get smart and strategic. And that's what I think

You know, it's so funny when we were designing this episode, I'm like, this is really going to help so many people helping them get curious about the whys. And now I'm like, ⁓ shit, this is so hard. It is just so hard.

Cary J. Mogerman (33:23)

It is hard. It is

hard. No matter how you lay it out, if you transmit the document, there's something in paragraph three that is going to send the client absolutely through the roof, off their spool. And it's just, it's managing. But Andrea, in counseling, let me ask you, do you discuss the, I don't know if it's physiology or pathology or what, when you mentioned fight or flight, do you discuss?

where that comes from and is that something that's helpful or is that?

How Not To Suck At Divorce (33:52)

You know, I've been in therapy since I was in utero. And yeah, I mean, I often ask like, where does that come from and why? And I think that almost all the time it's because there's something in you that gets scary. And then there's a part of your brain that just lights up and wants to, just like what we just talked about, getting a link from Amazon or getting an email, you immediately want to respond. It's really hard to not respond.

Right? it comes from like back in the day when there was literally bears chasing us in the woods. You had to run.

Cary J. Mogerman (34:28)

You have to run and you know, if you think it through, you know, rationally, there is no reason in the world I have to make this decision now.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (34:37)

So

let's break this down on what we don't want people to get stuck in and where we do want them to get curious

Let's start with what we don't want them to question. We don't want you to get caught up in why is this happening to me. That's a conversation that you should definitely explore after you've had a bottle of tequila with the principal of your school. No, I'm just kidding. Go explore that in therapy.

Your attorney is not going to be able to tell you why this is happening. What else do we want to make sure people don't get caught up in?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (35:14)

What do you got, Carrie?

Cary J. Mogerman (35:15)

Why are you doing all this? Why can't we just sit in a room and hash it out? Because my spouse says, I agree to 50-50. Well, understand, what's the size of the pie that we're saying 50-50 on? think don't blame the lawyer for wanting to know all the pennies and nickels, where they are, what they're worth.

because it's to your advantage. You, you don't, you can't settle a case in a dark room. We have to turn the lights on in the room. We have to see what's on the table.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (35:44)

Mm-hmm.

one of the things we don't want people to question, because it's just a waste of money really, is why is the law like this? Why is the court like this? If we had those answers, we would not be doing this job. We have what we have to work with. And it's our job to tell you what the law is and how the court runs. And it really is a waste of your time and money to go round and round. I had this client.

Cary J. Mogerman (35:55)

Yeah, right. Right.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (36:16)

I think this client, spent thousands of dollars just being upset about the fact that the law was what the law was and that the court was running the way the court ran. And it was hard for me because responding and it was like, I don't have any other answers. It's just the way it is.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (36:32)

This isn't fair. That's another thing. God, we got to do a whole episode on the fact that nothing is going to be fair. It's not fair.

Cary J. Mogerman (36:39)

Fair doesn't really enter into it, does it?

How Not To Suck At Divorce (36:41)

No, no one and unfortunately like, you know, people think well, did the judge hear about what he said to me?

Cary J. Mogerman (36:50)

Yes.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (36:50)

let's get into when we do want to use to recap because we love action steps. Here's when we want you to use the question why. We want you to use the question why when you are asking what the strategy is in your case. We want you to use the question why before you're going into mediation. We want you to use the question why before you're going into litigation, even if you're prepping to go into litigation. Ask why, ask what.

ask how. And if you don't know, or maybe the lawyer isn't explaining it well, please, like Carrie said, just nicely or not nicely, we don't really care, say, I don't know what you're saying. Please, can you explain it to me in a nice way? It could be, I'm just not following. Can you explain this a little bit to me? No problem. Lawyers should be able to do that.

Cary J. Mogerman (37:36)

Why are you saying we need to do X? We should be able to explain it so it's crystal clear. Otherwise, why are we doing X? Right?

Does it matter if X? Does it matter if Y? Ask the question. You're paying us so much money to help you. Let us help you better and let us know.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (37:50)

the question.

Cary J. Mogerman (37:56)

all the information. But please don't send photos of documents. Go buy a desktop scanner or go to mailboxes but do not send an iPhone photo, five photos of the pages of the thing that you were, I hate that.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (37:57)

going

my ending thought is, you know what's beautiful in my mind is once you've worked with a client and they've asked the whys and you've done your job as a lawyer explaining the whys, it's amazing how sometimes clients' brains click on and all of sudden they're in it with you. They're helping you make the chess moves. They're helping you direct the strategy because they know the spouse better than anyone. And you as a listener,

If you can get to that point, you are winning. with that, Carrie, thank you for coming on the podcast. We have loved having you.

Cary J. Mogerman (38:47)

I've loved the experience. Thank you for asking me and thank you both. And I enjoyed our conversation very much.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (38:55)

I feel like we just had a conversation with like a wise sage who uses terms like nomenclature.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (39:00)

I loved that language was like, we are so smart here today.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (39:05)

Not us. I can't even

spell definitely or Martha-thon.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (39:09)

That is true. You really can't spell, but he was lovely. He had this like wise kind of vibe going on with him and very likable. And I really appreciated that it was kind of a unique topic that we haven't really hit before, which is when is it appropriate to ask why? Because so many clients and so many listeners are worried about one, wasting money, which is a really big worry and a good worry. And two, they're worried like, am I asking a stupid question and wasting my money? Right.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (39:39)

Yeah. And how to know when to get curious and when to just do the work. And I think that really understanding that if your why questions are helping you understand what is making your soon to be X tick, then your why is worthwhile. If your why is just complaining about the things that you can't control, right? Why is the court system like this? Why is this taking so long?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (39:52)

you

How Not To Suck At Divorce (40:07)

Why am I even here? Those are the questions that are just gonna make your process more of a headache and more expensive. And guys, that is what we don't want you to go through. So please use our guides. I mean, my gosh, I can't say it enough. There is a reason why we have the Divorce Crash Course. There's a reason why it is one of the best selling products out there in the divorce community because it...

actually helps you. It's a game changer. The attorney guide that we mentioned today, all of these products are designed by experts, by Morgan, who wants nothing more than to level the playing field so that everyone has access to information that it used to be that only the wealthiest people had these attorneys who held their hand and got them through this process.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (40:59)

Yeah, that's right. We don't want that. We want to give access to everybody. And here's the thing. No more hate mail this week. We're tired. We're tired. Only positivity. So if you enjoyed it and you're like, these poor schmucks, give us a good review, please, because that enables us to continue to bring on fabulous divorce lawyers like Carrie from all around the country, actually all around the world. And we would love to do more episodes for you to help you not suck a divorce. Because remember this, divorce is a marathon. It is.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (41:05)

Holy...

Morgan L. Stogsdill (41:28)

not a sprint. Not every day is a good day and that's okay. We are here for you. Some days it's day by day and other days it's hour by hour.

in the next five years you are going to be living a fabulous life.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (41:42)

And on the days when you don't think you can do it anymore, you can take a break, but don't quit. You don't have to respond to an email right away. We don't want you to respond to an email right away. Take a beat, take a walk, listen to this podcast, listen to another podcast. Breathe. You can get through this. You have got this.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (42:02)

And we, my friends, have got you.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (42:06)

The How Not to Suck a Divorce podcast shall not be copied or rebroadcast without consent. This podcast does not contain legal advice. The information heard in this podcast is not and shall not be construed as legal advice.