Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (00:00)

our natural reaction when the other parent reaches out and says, can we swap weekends or can I have them this time?

Our natural reaction is to say no for no other reason than to say no.

but if we start just lowering down our guard and just throwing the other person a bone

don't just say yes, say the word, of course.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (00:17)

let's think about what else you could be doing it for,

you're doing it for something else, the court.

You're doing it from potentially somebody representing the child. They're seeing that you are the one that's being reasonable. You are the one that can co-parent.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (00:31)

But what about you? What does it do for you when you drop that animosity

Andrea Rappaport (00:37)

If you're going through a divorce or thinking about getting a divorce, this is the podcast for you. Hosted by Morgan Stogsdill, the head of family law at the largest family law firm in the country and comedian Andrea Rappaport, you're gonna laugh, you're gonna learn, you're gonna avoid major divorce mistakes. This is How Not to Suck at

Andrea Rappaport (00:57)

If you're anything like me and you tend to go on a hole when you're suffering, I've got news for you. There's a better way to do things.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (01:05)

Rather than hiding in a hole, your divorce besties want you to connect with those in your circle, especially as we head into the holiday season.

Andrea Rappaport (01:12)

Don't isolate yourself. You are coming up on a time when you and your kids will need community more than ever. So how do we want you to connect? By making a tiny bit of effort and actually send out holiday cards this year.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (01:27)

We are partnering with Truly Engaging, a card company that has truly won my heart over. I have personally been using them for years and believe me when I tell you, these are the nicest cards on the market.

Andrea Rappaport (01:39)

Yeah, Truly Engaging is actually the only company with a premium line that has both raised foil and the glossy varnish, which is deliciously luxurious.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (01:49)

And I know what you're thinking. Don't worry. It is not wildly expensive, especially not for our listeners.

Andrea Rappaport (01:55)

Connect with your community with a keepsake worth holiday card. And no, we aren't telling you to write, and I think I want a divorce on the back of the card. Although, ⁓ my God, if you do have the balls to write that, please send me that card because I would die.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (02:09)

No, don't write that. But do check out Truly Engaging, direct link and promo code in our show notes.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (02:15)

So I have to apologize to you and our listeners.

last week we released an episode which was the content was fabulous. I listened to it, the content was like dead on. But I don't know what happened.

I don't know what was going on with my microphone.

but you could literally hear me taking a breath in between every sentence. It

like nails on a chalkboard to me. It literally sounded like I had COPD.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (02:40)

speaking of apologies, my husband owes you one because he was watching one of our episodes while I was making some cuts. And he's like, what are those glasses that Morgan's wearing? And like, you know, it's just because our eyes are tired at the end of the day and you know, it helps us. And so now he refers to you as Morgan Scorsese.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (03:01)

You know what? Fine. Whatever. If that's the worst I've been called, I'll take it. Thank you, Steve. Thank you.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (03:06)

There are

these like, they're, I mean, they're very on trend. And I think everyone can now picture what they look like. they're those very like fashiony, thick black rimmed, they're like a square shape, right? You're not wearing them today. So I don't have a visual to go off of. But yeah, Steve walks by and he's like, what is that? What? And so now he's like, Hey, how's Morgan Scorsese

doing? I'm like, you know what? That kind of works. Two

Morgan L. Stogsdill (03:31)

Just making

How Not To Suck At Divorce (03:32)

both a genius. You are both a genius in a creative and analytical sense. So there you have it.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (03:40)

You're welcome.

You're welcome.

And talking about geniuses today, today we're talking about the most genius thing ever if it can be done, which is realistic co-parenting advice for divorcing or divorced parents. And with that, let's not even mess around. Let's get right into it and see how to do this.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (03:57)

Morgan, it's been so long since we've brought a guest on the show. I really hope that we don't suck at doing an interview.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (03:58)

Thank

Morgan L. Stogsdill (04:03)

I know and given what happened last week, we're going to have to start a new podcast called How Not to Suck at Podcasting Really Soon.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (04:09)

It's really got a ring to it. Okay, fingers crossed. Today our guest is John Basford. I'm enunciating that because I was just informed that if you don't enunciate it, it can sound like John Bastard, which he is not. Okay, Mr. Bas-ford.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (04:14)

Yeah.

Thank

How Not To Suck At Divorce (04:26)

is absolutely incredible. And I'm going to read you guys a few lines that come directly from his press sheet, because I just want to give you all a feel for what a gem of a guy this is. So John Basford is not your typical parenting expert. He's lived in the reality he teaches. Growing up in a two-home household in the conservative Midwest during the 1980s, he experienced firsthand what doesn't work.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (04:39)

We'll right

How Not To Suck At Divorce (04:53)

So now, after eight years of active co-parenting with his 10-year-old son, or I should say for his 10-year-old son, he's not co-parenting with a 10-year-old, but that's on the next episode, he and his ex-wife have created something that most people think is impossible. They communicate daily. They attend school events together. They coordinate holidays across extended

families.

and this was not the result of an amicable divorce. What made the difference was intentionality, a deliberate commitment to building a family focused on their son rather than their own grievances. Holy cow. John Baskford, you son of a gun. I cannot wait to hear how you did the impossible. Welcome to How Not to Suck at Divorce.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (05:39)

Thank for having me.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (05:40)

So John, before we get into this, you're not just some random guest on the podcast either. You also have your JD, meaning you're a lawyer, and you also have an MBA. So you're no dummy coming on our podcast.

I'm going to jump right into it. You're living the co-parenting dream life. Can you please come into my office, move in, and help all of my clients?

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (05:58)

Sure, we'll start tomorrow. Yeah, it's been a journey. can sound like a fairy tale when we talk about this. know, when an ex-wife is coming to your wedding and not just with not just herself, but with her partner, with her parents, with her uncles, you know, we've created quite a dynamic. you know, one reason why I put my past story of my childhood as well as details about our relationship in the book was because

I want to build know it did start with animosity. You know, we spent four, four to six years of marriage and counseling and you know, it wasn't fun at the end. there was a lot of animosity and hostility and, when it, when we able to put all that behind us and we just said like, start fresh. wouldn't, we wouldn't create a new relationship for, with ourselves and with our families for the sake of our son.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (06:43)

So for our listeners who are probably hearing this episode because they're nervous about co-parenting or they're already in the throes of it and it's not going great, you became someone who speaks very publicly about how you do things differently. But let's get into that because you mentioned it, but I want to talk more about it. Why? Like what exactly did you experience as a child that left a lasting impact and showed you that you need to do things differently?

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (07:10)

Several parts, know, again, I was raised in your just your typical divorce home where mom had physical, medical, legal custody and was responsible for schoolwork, sick days, everything under the sun. And dad got, you know, two fun-filled weekends every other week. And that's what our relationship was with our dad. You know, I would, you know, I don't fault my dad. I think that's kind of a product of the times and what people did, but my dad had no real responsibilities in raising us. You know, he didn't.

Never had to deal with kids coming home from school crying and or vomiting or anything else, you know, and, you know, I'll kind of be honest about this. You know, when my dad left, he told my mom like it's better this way. I'll be a better part time dad. And the reality of that wasn't that he'd be better at being a part time dad. There's just less expectations on a part time dad. If he wasn't going to be there full time, he might as well just be there part time. And, you know, that really kind of always stuck with me a little bit that, you know, have just given the out.

of being a part time dad, was afraid I was going to do that. So we really created a dynamic that was very, very 50 50 and wanted to just do things differently, be there for my son, have real responsibility. You know, we go to every sporting event for our son and every school activity, whether it's our time or not, unless we have a scheduling conflict and really just just my intention for myself also just do things differently to be there for my son, show up differently and support him.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (08:30)

So it's interesting from a divorce lawyer's perspective, because when I first started practicing divorce law, it was super standard what you're talking about. I mean, the dads pretty much had every other weekend. And that is usually what we call, we joke around that now that's called the bad dad schedule. It's like the worst schedule you could possibly get these days, because there's been a shift in society, whether it's right, wrong, or indifferent, dads are truly stepping up more.

they wanna be involved in their children's lives. In fact, it's kind of the opposite now where if they're not almost a 50-50 parent or at least trying to be both sides, it's kind of like, ew, you know what, why? So what we're seeing as divorce lawyers is this shift in society where most people are trying to come in looking for a 50-50 schedule.

So very unique, but we're seeing that over and over. So we're seeing the trend from where you grew up in the eighties,

it was a very different, you know, scenario back then. So now we have what we have to deal with in this society, where we're at right now, which is for the most part, most people are super involved.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (09:35)

We said we wanted to do things differently and part of it was because of our relationship with each other's families. You know, I'm actually from Midwest. I live out on the East Coast now outside of Washington DC, so my ex wife's family really became my family and vice versa. And you know, we didn't want to affect those dynamics. We wanted everyone to have their individual relationships and we also wanted to. You know, reading the you know.

We were reading the book, Two Homes, to our son, you know, when he was one years old, one and half years old, getting ready for our divorce. And we wanted to create that cohesive environment that when you left one home and showed up at another, it wasn't a complete set of rules and values and schedules. We wanted to be as cohesive as possible to, especially in those early years, again, starting when he was one and half, two years old, just creating that stable environment for him.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (10:22)

we gotta bring in a moment of like realism because

I don't want people to be like, fuck you, John. Like you're fucking, you're talking about reading a book together with your ex-wife and like, let's do this amicably. Shut up. So you said before that it was not always easy. We gotta talk about that because people.

I mean, I know we're gonna get to the action steps and I know that the point of this conversation is how do we help people get there? But I think we need to validate the fact that nobody wants to co-parent. It doesn't feel natural. It's hard. It's ⁓ a lot of strategy, which we're not all strategists. We don't know how to do this. So tell me, what did you experience that was hard?

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (11:05)

my ex wife is issue was we were kind of really incompatible living together, so we decided we went back and forth and whether or not we're going to live together before getting engaged. All that and and there was some back and forth on that, but we did. I end up proposing before we moved in together and then we moved in together and like. You know, she went off the rails literally overnight and you convince yourself as learning curves. It's growing pains. You'll get used to it and we never did.

We ended up spending four to six years of marriage and counseling and agreed to divorce and counseling. we, you that very day we, you we had the discussion of, you know, is people allowed to date before the divorce is final? All that type of stuff. We had these real time discussions while agreeing to separate. So, you know, there were, you know, like, like every divorce, there were, there's some trash talking and, you know, I felt, you know, at times that she was

How Not To Suck At Divorce (11:33)

Oi.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (11:57)

unfair to me and in her description of me and you know that brought some family into it some degree. But I say one thing that really kind of be able to create set the foundation for we end up doing was she was very careful about what she said to her family. She had her friends and other people that she would you know open up and trash talk me whatever to call that or just you know give her perspective I should say. And of course I had mine too right but we definitely had those.

those moments of animosity, we were angry towards the end. were fed up, we were over it. I was someone by the time we agreed to separate, I was ready to date right away because I was mentally, physically, sexually, emotionally done with that relationship by the time I did So it did not end well and hashing out a separation agreement while living together and dating was not fun either. There was a lot of battles.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (12:48)

All right, so what I'm hearing is very standard to what I see day to day. what we don't want our listeners to think is like everything with John and his ex-wife was, you know, beautiful, easy. They're taking this high road because that isn't really life and that's not really a divorce no matter how mature you are. So if that's you, don't worry. We're going to give you some action steps going forward. But John has a unique

perspective on this because he started out very upset with his ex. He has this child, he's navigating it. Thankfully, the ex did not bring in her family, which that's a whole other topic and Andrea and I have mentioned it, but it definitely makes things more difficult. But on the flip side, you were able at some point to set aside that animosity or at least compartmentalize it and put your child first. And a lot of people

are like, how in the hell, John, did you do that? Because what I see with my clients is it's hard to do that because you've constantly got this nagger in your ear that's like, I hate you. I'm out to get you. I don't want to co-parent with you. And so how do you be the bigger person and set that aside and say, we're putting our son first?

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (14:04)

it's not a fairy tale story that didn't happen overnight. You know, you have to sit through the discomfort and the times where you're not sure if you can handle it. But, you know, we really just came together and said, you know, we want to do this differently. And for me,

You know, I always went back to fact like, yes, we had a hostile relationship at the end, but we're both good people, right? No one wronged the other person. We both had our issues with the other person and had our reasons why we were getting divorced and why we were justified in our thoughts, feelings and actions. But no one, no one hurt anyone. you know, even for people where there is, you know, infidelity or something, you know, there's always

There's a backstory behind it, you know, and there's other things happen in life and I'm not trying to excuse that by any means, but you can come to a point, no matter what that past relationship was and come to a realization, I'm stuck with this person. Like it or not, I had a kid with them, they're in my life for the rest of my life, most likely, and how do I make the most of this?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (15:11)

also want listeners to know that this relationship, because I've seen it a million times, relationships like yours, it's not linear. So it's not that you've had a rough go and now you've turned the tables and you're co-parenting well. And so that means you're going to co-parent well for the rest of your kid's minority. No, that's not what's going to happen. You're going to have bumps just like you would in any normal relationship. But I think that it's important for our listeners to know that

How Not To Suck At Divorce (15:11)

it.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (15:39)

It's a really good sign if you can at least have a conversation like John had with his ex about, let's put him first. Let's do this better. We can do it. Is it gonna be perfect? No. But if you can at least have that conversation, you are on the right track.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (15:54)

Yeah, it is important to we were good about bringing in a close circle around us who knew what we were doing, supported us in doing that, you know, mainly our parents and in close relatives. But again, you know, there were times that outside parties kind of shook us a little bit, you know, early on in our relationship. I think where we're still living together, I was invited to a family function for a family member who wasn't really part of our inner circle. They found out that I was invited to the event and uninvited me.

called me up and said, hey, like there might be a time for this. It's not now. No offense. I don't want you there. So we get, we had our ups and downs and it broke my heart. I love her family and you know, to have this person who it wasn't really part of any of this, to, to, to derail our efforts. And there was empathy on behalf of my ex and you know, we had to talk through it.

we had to get beyond that and we had to stay focused on ourselves and focus on our son and to focus on that, that tight circle around us that was really trying to support what we were doing because having a positive co-parent relationship is disgusting to people. It's weird to people. We are, look at us like we have three heads because the animosity and anger and distrust, all of those things that happen through a divorce, it's easier to, in people's minds to

let that go on, then flip the script on how it looks to go parent.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (17:14)

I want to talk about the magic of co-parenting here for people who aren't able to truly co-parent because there's a big population of people and probably the ones who are tuning into this episode because of the title who are thinking, okay, great. We're really happy for you, John and wonderful Morgan, but how come you're not talking about what I need to hear, which is I'm trying over here.

but she's not working with me. He's not working with me. I am now forced to parallel parent and I hate this. So John, now that you've become an expert in this arena, what do you tell these people?

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (17:55)

the best advice is start with yourself. And I know it's easier said than done. When there's egos on both sides, you want this to be reciprocal on how everyone's viewing things. But really, in my book, I talk a lot about letting go. Letting go of your ego, animosity, that sort of thing. And I promise anyone out there who is interrelationship, who wants to create a more positive co-paratorial relationship, but doesn't have that reciprocating side, if you start with yourself.

And there's some small things to do, right? Just

our natural reaction when the other parent reaches out and says, can we swap weekends or can I have them this time? Or can you have them this time? Our natural reaction is to say no for no other reason than to say no. And but if we start just lowering down our guard and just throwing the other person a bone and I like to even say that even don't just say yes, say the word, of course.

Yes, of course, I'm happy to help you. Let me help you out. Let's help each other out. And don't ask for something in return. If you're trying to build that relationship back and forth and they're not really participating in that, don't do a quid pro quo because it's gonna stay that way forever. In the beginning, sometimes it helps a little bit if you're both partnering and make it easy back and forth, but give up some time, take on some time, whatever it is, throw the other person a bone.

and start working by focusing on yourself because I promise you, will also feel lighter in yourself and not carrying the animosity and you will improve your life regardless. I guarantee it.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (19:23)

So for everyone who's hearing this, and this question goes to the both of you guys, both Morgan and John, kind of like what you just said, John, you're doing it for you, but you're gonna have a lot of listeners right now that have already folded their arms across their chest and leaned back and thought, yeah, okay, okay, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna say, okay, sure. And I guarantee you he or she is never gonna do that for me. And all I'm gonna do is give, give and give because he's an abuser.

She has borderline personality disorder. He is a narcissist and it's going to be so unhealthy. So what do the both of you have to say to that feeling that our listeners might be having?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (20:01)

All right, I'm going to take it from a divorce lawyer standpoint. So the feeling is totally normal, but this is where I would challenge you to say, regardless of what John just said, if you're doing it for you, that's wonderful. But

let's think about what else you could be doing it for,

right? And this is where Our Family Wizard comes in, because if you actually put it on Our Family Wizard,

you're doing it for something else, the court.

You're doing it from potentially somebody representing the child. They're seeing that you are the one that's being reasonable. You are the one that can co-parent.

And if you say what John's saying, absolutely, no problem. I'd be happy to switch weekends. And it's on something like our family wizard. It is evidence for the future. Now you look reasonable. You look like you're trying to actually co-parent whether or not they can or not.

And really you're building a case. So you've got that to fall back on.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (20:54)

And why does that matter?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (20:55)

Why does it matter? Because if you ever had to go to court and you had to argue about whether you can truly co-parent or it should be a sole decision-making or a sole custody scenario, and you've got these things on our family wizard showing that you're doing what's in the best interest of your child. And we talked about this a few episodes ago, Andrea, it was the scenario of, let's just say Chad and Brenda, because that's our couple we always talk about on the podcast. Let's just say that Chad

got Dodger's tickets.

for the amazing last game of the World Series. And he wants to take Johnny, but it's

Brenda's weekend. He sends her a note on our family wizard. Can we switch weekends? Brenda wants to tell him to go F himself. Hell no, I would never switch weekends with you. But what she should do is say, of course we can, because Johnny would love to go to game five or game seven of the World Series. This is about Johnny. Now Brenda looks amazing.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (21:56)

So from the strategic and legal standpoint, I get it, John, from the emotional standpoint of, this is what I really want to talk about everybody, not just the kid. Everybody says, do it for the kid. Put your kid first. Put your kid first. OK, fine, wonderful, great.

But what about you? What does it do for you when you drop that animosity

and say, of course, take Johnny to the game?

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (22:20)

For people who are in that position, I want you to think real quick. You when you get that text or you get that phone call and doing things the way we always do them, which is with animosity and resentment, all that stuff, what happens to you after that phone call? You sit there and you stew on it. It goes through your head. You might even say it out loud. I can't believe this jerk. Can't believe they expect this from me. I can't believe they love you. You might stew for hours, days, and maybe you have your kid right then and there.

and they're not getting the best of you. They're not getting your attention because you have this conversation in your head about why this person is so unreasonable and you can't deal with them. Nine times out of 10, there's zero reason not to say yes, other than resentment and not animosity. So you just said no for spite. You have this conversation going in your head. You're not being your best self for yourself or for your kids.

when all it would have taken to swallow a little bit of pride and say, course.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (23:18)

am nodding my head so much. look like an evangelical in like a church session, which for a Jewish girl, it couldn't be further from the truth. But I am like raising my hands over here saying, yes, yes, I testify. Hallelujah. Here's what else it does. If you listen to our last episode, you know all about the nervous system and what happens when we get into that spot where part of our brain lights up and we're like, we're being threatened. we're being threatened.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (23:30)

Hallelujah.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (23:46)

Fight or flight, let's go. You're gonna feel like absolute garbage. Don't you deserve to have a minute where you feel better? Don't, and really, when you break it down, what's the big fucking deal? What's the big deal? You know, I'll tell you guys, I talk about my personal life in little tidbits off and on, and you guys know little bits about what I went through when I was able.

to just say to my ex-husband, my co-parent, sure, if you feel like you want more time with the kids,

you want to take them to the movies right now? Of course. Go for it. Do you know how much better that makes me feel?

as opposed to sending a text back that says, I don't know if I'm really comfortable with that. Why do you need to take them both to the movies? Can you just take one? Say yes.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (24:35)

And one of the things that divorce lawyers always, good ones, tell their clients is stop counting, stop it. It isn't a check mark in your box when you either say, no, I'm not gonna give him to you, or yes, I am, now I'm gonna count, or you got three extra overnights in the span of 365 days. If you're a counter, you're not gonna have a good divorce. If you're a counter, you're not going to be mentally healthy.

So we want you to stop the counting and be the person that you are meant to be for not only yourself, but your child or children.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (25:07)

Thank

How Not To Suck At Divorce (25:09)

Right. And stop talking about my box, But listen, you said stop checking your box. I just had to make John laugh and squirm for a second there. Okay.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (25:11)

What?

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (25:14)

you

Morgan L. Stogsdill (25:19)

He is,

wait, hold on, listeners, if you can't see him because you're not, it's a podcast, but if you're not watching on YouTube, he is beet red. When Andrea said that, my gosh, he is beet red. John Bastard is so red.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (25:28)

He's, listen, John

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (25:31)

you

How Not To Suck At Divorce (25:31)

Bastard is happily remarried right now. He's very familiar with boxes. So here's the deal. Something else that I think is important to digest. Your co-parenting relationship is gonna change. You might not be in a place right now where you can apply a lot of this stuff, but yeah, you've gotta be open to the fact that what it is right now,

is not where it will always be, and that is a mindset thing. So John, when you talk publicly about this, how do you speak to people changing that mindset to be open to the fact that this could get better?

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (26:09)

Yeah, I mean, it's tough, right? It's tough to see the forest of the trees when when you're coming out of a nasty, nasty forest or you've already started co-parenting and it's just a struggle after struggle after struggle. It like it, but it does get better like no matter how bad it is. I think most people would say in due time things get better regardless of whether it turns into co-parenting or not because you learn to let go little by little. You learn to not let the person bother you. You learn learn all these little things.

You grow up, get more mature, whatever it may be that changes things. really, the biggest thing is just to be intentional about why you are doing something. Simon Sinek, famous for the TEDx and books, start with why. What kind of relationship do you want to build here in why? And the why can get you through a lot of the hard times. No matter what part of life, co-parenting, a job.

that you hate your boss or toxic culture, but you like the salary, it's moving you up the ladder and you stay there through it all because you know at the end it's helping your career and helping you personally grow. Look at co-parenting the same way. Like, yes, I am putting up with some stuff, but I am making some moves and choices and decisions in my life so that it's better meant for all of us. And I don't care if the other person sees it. I'm doing it for me, I'm doing it for us.

And that's what will keep you through the tough times towards the end.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (27:25)

You know, that's interesting and I like that because what I see is a lot of people get really upset and kind of lose this co-parenting mentality because when they feel like they're losing control, they lose their why. Because all they want is that control back. So for our listeners, if you can keep that why in your head, it's going to help you make better decisions. So John, as you know, Andrea and I love action steps on this show. Can you give us...

three action steps that a listener can do right now to have a healthier mindset about co-parenting.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (27:56)

Yeah, I think the first one is do the personal work. know, read some mindfulness books on things like letting go that are kind of more that spiritual side of learning, you know, talking earlier about what happens when we're in those angry resentment spots and what happens to our brain and how it spirals us down. Learn about that stuff. I mean, like there's no better thing and help you solve life, work, professional, personal problems than learning to let go. And so that's a... ⁓

a big step is having people take that personal development journey and learn about that. And tactically with co-parenting, know, start with one yes. Like, sometime when you deep down know that there's no reason not to say yes, start there. I'm not asking you to commit to anything long term. I'm not asking you to be BFFs with a person, invite them to your wedding, whatever it may be. I'm just asking you,

to say yes to one thing. And at the same time through all of this, I believe, the subtitle of the book is, it's not about you. When you truly bring, when you're faced with something, truly have that internal dialogue, is this about me or is it about the kid? Because I guarantee you, every relationship combative thing that gets thrown out on religion,

time, money, school, whatever it may be. You can almost always pull back to that being about you. It's because how you were raised, how you wanna see the kid be raised, your time, your money, let that go. So do the steps of letting go, start saying yes, then start training your mind that when you're asked one of these things to do things, make an exchange, pick something up, drop something off, am I upset because it's what's...

Because it's not good for the kid or I just don't want it and if you reframe your brain to open every discussion with that in mind you will It will all open up for you. Everything will be easier. You'll be willing to you'll be willing and able to let go of those moments And know you're doing it for a positive reason

How Not To Suck At Divorce (30:01)

And for listeners who are hesitant to want to look at letting go because they think, well, I don't need to let go. He's the dick, not me. Okay. But let's say something really horrible happened to you. Let's talk about people who survived a horrible crime, a rape victim. Does a rape victim also not have to do the work to let go?

of what happened to him or to her so they don't carry this with them for the rest of their lives. Yeah. So when we're talking about doing the work and picking up a book on letting go, we're not saying that you're just as fucked up as she is or he is. We're saying that everybody has to put forth some effort if you want anything to get better. And this insight will help you better understand why you're reacting this way. The other side to all of this is it really doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter how much of a dick he is, because now you're in the business of co-parenting together. It doesn't matter how much of a dick your boss is, you work for that person. So you've got to figure out how you're going to do it.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (31:06)

In getting letting go of things, you know, I've actually written a talk that I'm actually trying to get on another TEDx about Charles Dickens and the Christmas Carol and the three ghosts that haunt us. And all those fictitious, the three ghosts are real, but not real, but they live in our head. And the ghosts of the past, the thoughts we have about the past really aren't real. Like the actual event is not what haunts us.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (31:06)

Yes.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (31:31)

It's what we tell ourselves about that event. The anguish, the anger, the disappointment, everything that we hold onto about that past event is really what haunts us. It's not a real thing anymore. Except for what lives in our head. The present is the self-talk. I'm not worthy, I'm useless, my kids aren't gonna love me. All of these things aren't real. They're the stories we tell ourselves and the future hasn't happened yet.

that really doesn't exist. And but yet we tell ourselves like, I'm going to be fired. This is going to happen. That's going to happen. But these are all just lies that we tell ourselves. And we live so much in the past, in the future and in the lies we tell ourselves that we learned again, kind of do the self-development and learn about that stuff. Things I started learning around 38, 39 years old that I'm trying to teach my son now on just how to live lighter that I think, you know, our generation, we weren't taught these type of things.

and just learning to understand what is actually real versus the lies and stories we tell ourselves.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (32:31)

Mmm.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (32:32)

love that. And I love that you gently slid in there. I'm going to do another TEDx talk because you've already done one, John, you TEDx speaker, you.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (32:38)

Hahaha

Morgan L. Stogsdill (32:43)

All right, John, you keep dropping hints for us this whole podcast about a book. So let's hear about it.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (32:43)

I do what I can.

Yeah, so this is a two-time bestseller on Amazon. So my first book actually was on the business front. Sorry, am I self-plugging too much here? So the book that we're here discussing is The Co-Parenting Secret, It's Not About You. And you can actually go to theco-parentingbook.com is the best way or search on Amazon. But really, how this book came about

How Not To Suck At Divorce (32:54)

Bye!

Humble, brag, John, John Bastard, the two-time bestseller.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (32:58)

No.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (33:15)

Again, I might start dabbling in a little bit of co-parenting coaching if there's a need out there for my story and everything. But I really wrote this book because people knew the animosity that my ex-wife and I had in our living situations and just not being compatible. And so people knowing that would come to us and say, you know, how's co-parenting with with the kid over here? And, we both were like, it's wonderful. And I started saying, it's great. We could write a book.

And so, you eight years later, after all this turmoil and I wrote the other my first book on business, this book wrote itself. just you know, it's just stories about about my life, about our relationship and then what we did day in and day out to just make these small incremental changes. Again, I think, you know, talk about action items for for your listeners. Just take these baby steps, right? It's one step at a time. It's one yes at a time.

It's one mind shift at a time. It's not going to happen overnight. You have got to learn to sit through discomfort and in everything, know, again, going, looking at her family and my family, you know, the first probably three dozen times I saw her parents, it was probably awkward. that 37th time it wasn't, you know, like there's, there's one moment where like it all goes away. Like it's, it's, it's not, it's not hard to do this work.

It really is very, simple. The hard part is shifting your mind. And once you make that shift with intentionality and coming into it with that, and really that's where my book starts, right? They have the intentionality. It's not about you and taking the steps you need to day in and day out for these small changes that can really reshape not just the co-parenting relationship, but your life.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (34:55)

John, you have so much to offer and we're so glad that you hung out with us today and friends. For those of you who have already joined the How Not to Suck at Life after Divorce community, you are in for a real treat because we're actually gonna be bringing John into that group to do some co-parenting videos with me and possibly some other exciting things if you need even more help.

So stay tuned, but make sure you go get your butt in that community.

With that,

I have very important question to ask you both. We gotta lighten this shit up. Pop quiz. Currently, what are all the kids eating? What are the favorite foods going on in your house, John? What are the favorite foods going on in your house, Morgan?

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (35:40)

I'm going to look like a really bad parent right now, but my son's go-to right now for pretty much every meal is a Lunchable. I don't cook. My wife and I eat completely different. It's not every meal. Okay, it's not like that bad. Yes, yes. That's kind of been his go-to, embarrassingly saying that, yeah, he's just eating processed food. So it's something we're working on.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (35:50)

Talk about the 80s.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (36:00)

Thanks for being honest about that.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (36:01)

I love the...

Geez, that's such a throwback. Morgan, what are your kids eating?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (36:06)

All right. So I have two very different children, but the one after my own heart is obsessed with double cheeseburgers. And Andrea and I love cheeseburgers. I don't get to eat them that often. Otherwise I'd be 900 pounds. But whenever he gets one, I get so excited because at least I can sneak two bites before he gets upset with me.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (36:24)

I used to be such like a fancy grocery shopper and like order like only from Whole Foods and like other places because I thought that made me look like a really good mom. And it doesn't. And I literally could not afford these grocery bills. So I switched and now I do like.

Walmart delivery for some of like the crappy foods that my kids eat where I'm like, it doesn't matter. Doritos are Doritos, right? Who cares? Well, I ordered these chicken nuggets from Walmart, but I cut the bag and I dumped them into a Ziploc bag because I thought my kids are like me. They're going to be like, I'm not eating chicken nuggets from Walmart. Great value. No, that's gross. My kids think that these are the best chicken nuggets.

ever had. I'm going to link these suckers in our show notes. And I put them in the air fryer. So I crunch them up and they're like, mommy, these are amazing. They're like Chick-fil-A. Wonderful. God bless America. Walmart chicken nuggets. And any time my husband says to me, are those the Walmart? Don't you fucking say it out loud. These are the special nuggets.

special nuggets friends. That's what it all comes down to.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (37:36)

my son is really obsessed with 6-7.

he had a shirt that said 6-7 on it. My wife was like, he is not going out for Halloween with just a t-shirt that says 6-7. So she pinned playing cards all over it with 6-7, made like a little headset with a 6 and 7 on top of it, decked him out. So he was it. And he was the talk of the school.

People were stopping him at the parade to take photos at school. It is so crazy how the 6-7 meme number is blowing up for no reason at all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (38:02)

awful. They have outlawed it at my kid's school. They've outlawed

it. No one can say it because it causes such a stir. And as we really close this conversation, I have to say my kid had strep over the weekend and we were in urgent care and they took his blood pressure. And his blood pressure was like something over 6'7", like 67. And my son goes, 6'7", to the nurse. And I'm like, no, it goes with you everywhere. Oh my God.

Just like John, we want you to come with us everywhere because you are such a wealth of knowledge and you will help so many people. The book is gonna be linked directly in the show notes along with my chicken nuggets, equally as important. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE (38:48)

Thank you for having me.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (38:50)

So I feel like the takeaway here is that there is hope for you, no matter where you are in your co-parenting journey.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (38:57)

Well, I agree, but I think the hope comes with you doing the work, right? I don't think this is the kind of message where it's like, just sit back and wait for it to get better. Those takeaways, right? You gotta look, you gotta look at yourself. Look at, have you let go? Are you letting go? Say yes, and don't only say yes, say of course, just do it. It's not gonna kill you. And then if something is really irking you, let's get curious about that.

Let's do some digging and saying, this because I just don't like it? Is there a real threat here? Or does this hint back to something that is maybe from my childhood or maybe something else that I'm just struggling with? But we've got to make mindset changes in order to have anything change with any kind of relationship.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (39:46)

And exactly what John said, which is it's baby steps. This is what we say all the time, that divorce is a marathon. It is not a sprint. Not every day is going to be a good day. That's exactly the same with your co-parenting. Not every day for co-parenting is going to be a good day. Some days it's day by day, other days it's going to be hour by hour. And those days you're pulling your hair out and that is okay.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (40:07)

Right, but don't pull your hair out, especially if you have hair extensions, because it's so expensive. Listen to the show instead. That is why we do this show. That is why we have these private communities. Go and join the How Not to Suck at Divorce community. Go and join the How Not to Suck at Life After Divorce community. We do this because we want to help you. There's a better way. This process might suck, but you don't have to suck at getting divorced.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (40:34)

And if you need more community other than joining our private community, go online, get our DCC, get our workbooks. We have those all at a fraction of the cost of what it should be just because we want to help you. Also, if you like our show, please rate and review us. It allows us to bring on fabulous guests like John in the future.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (40:52)

That's right. And remember, on the days where you don't think you can do this anymore, you're doing it. You're actually doing it. Keep going. Do the work, and I promise you, promise you, promise you, it does get better.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (41:04)

That's right. So remember this on your worst days, you have got this.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (41:09)

And we have got you.

How Not To Suck At Divorce (41:11)

The How Not to Suck a Divorce podcast shall not be copied or rebroadcast without consent. This podcast does not contain legal advice. The information heard in this podcast is not and shall not be construed as legal advice.