[SPEAKER_04]: This episode and the entire year's worth of episodes is proudly brought to you by California Cryobank.

[SPEAKER_04]: Use Code QueerFam25 for a free Level 2 subscription to their donor catalog.

[SPEAKER_04]: Let's go make those babies and then let's talk about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: love is love.

[SPEAKER_01]: You never go into having a baby with someone and expecting to not be together within a year but you know that's less and sadly what happened.

[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome y'all to the queer family podcast to the show about family both gay.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm Jamie your host and this is the show that highlights celebrates uplifts and normalizes.

[SPEAKER_04]: Ligipitiqua families in all of our fabulous identities and that's L [SPEAKER_04]: G, B, T, Q, I, A, plus for those of you who don't know the French way of saying, let's just be quiet.

[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, this episode was really great one.

[SPEAKER_04]: I had the pleasure of sitting down and chatting with Kirstie Law, Kirstie is an author who also happens to be a queer parent, obviously, as most parents are on this show.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's a lesbian mom and she's in a blended family now.

[SPEAKER_04]: She has a co-parenting situation and a girlfriend with kids as well as her kids.

[SPEAKER_04]: So it's a blended situation.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's a really great [SPEAKER_04]: episode and I think you're really going to enjoy it.

[SPEAKER_04]: So let's just go ahead and listen, I got not much else to say and they're keep being sirens coming down my block.

[SPEAKER_04]: One of these days you all, one of these days I'm going to take this loperation out of my bedroom in New York City and take it to a real live studio.

[SPEAKER_04]: one of these days and I won't have to deal with sirens outside and construction and the apartments around me.

[SPEAKER_04]: And you won't have to look at the bed that's behind me.

[SPEAKER_04]: But you do, you can look at all of my gorgeous trophies that I've gotten for the awards we've gotten on this show.

[SPEAKER_04]: So maybe maybe that little dream of being in an actual studio will come true one day soon.

[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, until then, you get to see my bedroom if you look at the videos.

[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, let's do this.

[SPEAKER_04]: Let's roll the tape.

[SPEAKER_04]: Curse these episodes great, and you're going to hear about Curse these books that everybody needs to get copies of.

[SPEAKER_04]: So let's go ahead and roll that tape.

[SPEAKER_04]: Helen, Bula, they don't exist.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm here alone in my apartment.

[SPEAKER_04]: Helen and Bula, my lovely assistants, please get up from the couch and roll this tape.

[SPEAKER_04]: Let's go.

[SPEAKER_04]: Let's hear Curse these episodes.

[SPEAKER_04]: Hi, Christy.

[SPEAKER_04]: Hello.

[SPEAKER_04]: Nice to meet you.

[SPEAKER_04]: You are coming in from Brighton, England.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: I've never been there.

[SPEAKER_04]: I've actually only been to London once in my life, which is so sad, and I was only there for a day and a half.

[SPEAKER_04]: Where were you going?

[SPEAKER_04]: What were you doing?

[SPEAKER_04]: We were going to Paris.

[SPEAKER_04]: So and we stopped, we stopped for a day in London and we took the train.

[SPEAKER_04]: I need to go back because I want to go, I want to go, see the sights, do the things.

[SPEAKER_04]: London's the best.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's my favorite seat in the world, I think, London.

[SPEAKER_01]: I see it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've traveled a fair bit too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I always find my way back to London.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the best.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't live there for you.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love New York.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love here.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I love Paris.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I love San Francisco.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm from there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, New York is up there, isn't it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are you from San Francisco?

[SPEAKER_01]: I am.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've been San Francisco.

[SPEAKER_01]: loved it.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's a it's a beautiful city.

[SPEAKER_04]: Really.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Lots of beautiful places in the world.

[SPEAKER_04]: But that's not what we're here to talk about.

[SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk about you and why you're here talking to the queer family podcast or the queer family squad as I like to call the listeners.

[SPEAKER_04]: Are you ready?

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's why you mark.

[SPEAKER_04]: Get set.

[SPEAKER_04]: go.

[SPEAKER_01]: So my name's Kirstie Law.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've been saying it rather.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't worry.

[SPEAKER_01]: My half of my family are American and my dad calls me Christie even though he knows my name is Kirstie.

[SPEAKER_01]: So don't worry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's that's good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so no worries.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a name that you don't really find in the U.S.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, my name's Kirstie Law.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a writer, an English teacher, an examiner.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have a son that I had with my ex-wife.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a queer person, I identify as a lesbian.

[SPEAKER_01]: I currently live in Brighton with my girlfriend and her two kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we're currently rocking the whole blended family unit thing at the moment, which is very new.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I've just kind of figuring out how to do that at the moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that's it.

[SPEAKER_04]: All right, that's lovely.

[SPEAKER_04]: You did go over, but it's kind of my fault because I interrupted you because I said your name wrong.

[SPEAKER_04]: I've been saying your name wrong.

[SPEAKER_04]: Why did you tell me earlier?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, geez, because people always do it's like my first name and my last name is just difficult for a lot of people.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's your last name is lore.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but the spelling is a little crazy.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's a little different, but cursi is not that hard.

[SPEAKER_04]: I just, I, you're, I, you're great.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like I see your name on the screen.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I, I see now that it says cursi.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I know cursi alley, the actress.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I shouldn't pick up on that.

[SPEAKER_04]: but anyway, so I'm so sorry, I've been seeing your name wrong.

[SPEAKER_04]: I won't do it again.

[SPEAKER_04]: So courtesy, all right.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we got a lot to dig into.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I know you have a book that we're going to discuss.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to discuss that towards the end, but first we need to know about how you got to the parenting state you're in right now, or the should I say the life state you're in right now.

[SPEAKER_04]: you have a son that you birthed.

[SPEAKER_04]: So can we first hear that story?

[SPEAKER_04]: And then we'll hear about the, how you got into this blended situation because the love of good blended story.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, so I didn't birth my son.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was, yeah, yeah, so it was reciprocal IVF.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so biologically, he is related to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was my egg and into my ex-wife and then she grew him and birth them.

[SPEAKER_04]: I can't believe I just asked the, I just assumed the most heteronormative thing which I don't do.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like if anybody, if anybody straight asks me a question like that, I am quick to respond that, oh my God, that is so straight of you to ask me that.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so now this is my second mistake.

[SPEAKER_04]: Look at this.

[SPEAKER_04]: What's this going to be splendidly?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, that's just heteronormativity.

[SPEAKER_01]: If we live in that world, it just erupts off on us, isn't it?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not awful.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's terrible.

[SPEAKER_04]: So you did reciprocal IVF with your X-wife.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so how long have you been living the clear life?

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my life, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I came out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I always think I came out pretty late, but a lot of people don't agree, but I came out and I was about 19.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think looking back, I always realized, well, you always do, don't you?

[SPEAKER_01]: When you look back, but it kind of took me a long time to get there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was a bit scared of coming out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't really know what that life looked.

[SPEAKER_01]: As a adult, and I was reluctant to live that life as an adult, maybe because of the time where I grew up or the place or I don't really know, but as soon as I came out, that was it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just live in the queer life.

[SPEAKER_04]: We had to go, we had to go you, and in you and your wife made the baby.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're super glad we had everything went great, and then, and then what happened?

[SPEAKER_01]: We were really lucky, it works for first time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Quite smooth.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: The problems were not there.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was really smooth.

[SPEAKER_01]: When he was born, he was in the ICU for two weeks.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like after it, the whole reciprocal IVF went smoothly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then after it was all like, oh, so he was a bit ill when he was born.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then obviously we broke up and separated and divorced.

[SPEAKER_04]: I want to get to where you're going, but I actually, I always dig into the more about the origin story of the kids.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I do want to ask about donor.

[SPEAKER_04]: Did you, what kind of a donor did you use and not known donors, sperm, a anonymous sperm?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what was your story there?

[SPEAKER_01]: The sperm bit was always, you always freaked me out a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was really not looking forward to that bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't really know what [SPEAKER_01]: but it entailed.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we used the the European sperm bank and then it became my favorite bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was like shopping on Amazon.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love this.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so much fun and you get loads of information it's safe and it's a really easy process.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's expensive but it's it was a really easy smooth process for us and you you do kind of [SPEAKER_01]: get to choose your ideal, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: In what you want the baby don't need to reflect the pair of views.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you get the chance to do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of cool things about having a queer kid, a family and a kid and a queer family and that you do get to choose these certain elements that hedge sexual people wouldn't get the chance to.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[SPEAKER_04]: I actually lovingly refer to this, the donor search as the search for the superhuman, because we do, we get all the choices.

[SPEAKER_04]: And sometimes, because we get all the choices, we get so many choices, we get a little kuku with it too.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like I know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Kuku, like I was ruling people out left and right for the most random things and people I talked to on the show always have a story or two about like the things that they started to worry about when it came to this this donor and who they were you know who they were choosing for their offspring which is funny 100% I was in the same like there was one he was allergic to cats [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, no, no, no, I was going to have it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of sort of in the legislature's cuts.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the right, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left, you put the camera on the left [SPEAKER_04]: go down a rabbit hole of what is the right choice and then of course the both of you have to be on the same page and you know there's binders full of donors that you've created and checklists you know we get insane but in the end we get the kid we were meant to get and everything is perfect always right but the search for the superhuman is a thing it's a thing yeah it's a thing [SPEAKER_04]: And it's something that bombs so many of us clear parents together.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like it's always a fun topic to talk about, actually.

[SPEAKER_04]: So you went the European sperm bank.

[SPEAKER_04]: What is it?

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know much about the European sperm bank.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know that there are pretty stringent donors who can donate.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like at least that's what I've heard in the past.

[SPEAKER_04]: Am I right here or am I wrong?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's different here.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is it?

[SPEAKER_01]: The European sperm bank represents UK laws and European laws in that there's no contacts with the donor at all until my son is 18.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then yeah, and then he would be allowed to go and find this person.

[SPEAKER_01]: But before that absolutely nothing.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I know in some countries there's just or or with some companies there's just a complete zero.

[SPEAKER_01]: you're not allowed to go and reach anyone.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's changed.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like I don't at least in the states now, that's not allowed.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like you can't have a completely anonymous donor.

[SPEAKER_04]: They have to be at least willing to be contacted when the child or children turn 18.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: It used to be that you could pick one that was completely anonymous.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like when I was trying, my oldest is 11 when we were trying.

[SPEAKER_01]: you could get at completely anonymous donor so it hasn't it hasn't been that long since it's been changed but with the European Spum by two there's only baby pictures you get you don't get an adult photograph but I know with some companies there are adult photographs.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well when we were trying it was only baby photos but now they are many of the sperm banks here offer adult photos too I think you have to pay more back.

[SPEAKER_04]: They're there.

[SPEAKER_04]: Really?

[SPEAKER_04]: such an interesting thing that bonds us all.

[SPEAKER_04]: We'll be right back.

[SPEAKER_00]: Phew, I guess we'll love this love.

[SPEAKER_04]: Phew!

[SPEAKER_04]: All that talk about sperm banks got me thinking about my promo code with California Cryo Bank.

[SPEAKER_04]: The number one sperm bank in the US that ships to over 50 states and over 40 countries and has one of the most diverse selections of sperm donors around.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're just going to use Code Clear Fam 25 and it's going to get you a free Level 2 subscription to their donor catalog, which gives you all the information you need about these donors.

[SPEAKER_04]: And when it comes to queer family building, the more information we can get, the better.

[SPEAKER_04]: So just go to cryobank.com, use Code Clear Fam 25 and you're going to get a free Level 2 subscription to their donor catalog.

[SPEAKER_04]: You can also use that code towards a discount on a level 3 subscription, which gives you even more information.

[SPEAKER_04]: Go make those babies y'all and then come tell me about them.

[SPEAKER_04]: Then Baby's born and he sounds like he was a bit sick in the beginning, but it thinks sounds like things smoothed out there.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for the whole good.

[SPEAKER_04]: Then a divorce happens it sounds like.

[SPEAKER_04]: Can you talk through that a little?

[SPEAKER_01]: You never go into having a baby with someone and expecting to not be together within a year, but yeah, that's necessarily what happened.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's quick.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know really quick.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we got married a year after and in seven [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, having a baby's heart, but I wouldn't, obviously it's not, it's not all of that, but it doesn't help when a relationship isn't already great.

[SPEAKER_01]: Having a baby isn't definitely not the way to try and fix that, because it's just going to blow up in your face.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which it did?

[SPEAKER_04]: That's quick though.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, how was the divorce was it amicable?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's still not gone through yet, but it was amicable on both sides.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just you go into having a baby thinking you're going to see your son every day to suddenly having your son 50% because we share custody one week on one week off, which is horrific.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody wants that.

[SPEAKER_01]: No one wants to see their child every other week.

[SPEAKER_01]: but it is what it is and he's got two parents that love him a lot and he's got two separate houses and two great lives and that's just how it how it is now and it's all he's like yeah he won't remember anything else [SPEAKER_04]: No, because he was so young, he was baby, baby, baby.

[SPEAKER_04]: Uh, how old is he now?

[SPEAKER_04]: He is full.

[SPEAKER_04]: He turned 400.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, he's still a baby.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he just started school watching.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, it's hard.

[SPEAKER_04]: And you miss milestones.

[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, that's, it's got to be Harper.

[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, it's got to be so hard.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's, I can, I hear you.

[SPEAKER_04]: Legally in regards to, because it's complicated in the states when it comes to us, clear parents.

[SPEAKER_04]: When it comes to guardianship, like in the states, we have to get second-parent adoption just to well it's highly advised that we get second-parent adoption to just make sure we're the non-bioparent is safe.

[SPEAKER_04]: A couple of questions here.

[SPEAKER_04]: Since you did reciprocal IVF.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Legally, are you known as the biomom or is your ex the biomparent?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so complicated.

[SPEAKER_01]: So legally, I am the biomom, but on the birth certificate, because she [SPEAKER_01]: she's automatically the mother on the birth certificate and I am the parent on the birth certificate.

[SPEAKER_01]: But when we went through the clinic at the beginning and we went through all the paperwork we you both sign everything to show that you are both the parents so you don't need to legally adopt you just are both the parents.

[SPEAKER_01]: So birth certificates have now changed from mother father to mother parent so you can have parent but you can't have two mothers which I always find word but [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, even if a trans man had, if a trans man birthed a baby, they would be the mother on the birth certificate still, because mother is the word you said.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just the person who births the baby, which is really, really, really, really confusing.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, why can't it just be parent, parent?

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or if a trans man just wants to be father, why can't they just be father?

[SPEAKER_04]: But, right, yeah, why can't they?

[SPEAKER_01]: But at the clinic, we both signed a lot of paperwork to show that we are both the parents.

[SPEAKER_01]: So no one needs to legally adopt anyone.

[SPEAKER_01]: We are both the parents of our son.

[SPEAKER_01]: And also because it was amicable, I mean, we don't get on well, but we don't get on very well as people, but we do have the best interests of our son.

[SPEAKER_01]: So because everything is amicable on that part, there's no threatening of going to court or because I guess that's where it could get messy, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: When someone wants [SPEAKER_01]: custody or full-time custody, you know, luckily we're not going through that, hopefully in the future, but I guess it depends on everyone's situation, doesn't it?

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, right, not good, not good.

[SPEAKER_04]: At least, you know, you're at least known as a parent legally, and you're not going to have to prove that.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're just going to have to, you know, possibly fight.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Hopefully, that never happens, so we're not even going to go that [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so that's all interesting about parented rights, it's just crazy that I that we even have to ask that question about parented rights, right, but that's that's clear for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: but they also change so often.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you never know what's around the corner, do you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which time things are headed in the wrong direction right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: So of course, same thing, you know, you just don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't know what's next.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe one day I'm his legal mum, maybe the next day.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not, it's just, you know, it's a terrifying world that we live in.

[SPEAKER_04]: Fingers crossed, fingers crossed.

[SPEAKER_04]: So all right, so you split up, you get your, you get it figured out, and then when does, uh, when does the girlfriend come into the picture?

[SPEAKER_04]: And let's, let's talk through that and how your life was, says this is single mom for a while, I suppose.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was a single mom for a while, and it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: And as I said, it was 50, 50, so it wasn't full time, but it was hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: Emotional, I think, you know, I cried a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was just hard, really hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: But also the best thing I've ever done in my life, actually.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really, really was rewarding, really good for me and him.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've built up the relationship that probably we wouldn't have had this type of relationship before I was still together with my acts.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not saying it's better or worse.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just different type of relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're very close.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's really nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I met someone who had two kids from a heterosexual relationship with her ex-husband.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then we fell in love and then yeah, now we're in the big blended family.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, when I got a big deal, I got a big deal here.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, first of all, I first just take it to the single parenting thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: I can, I can only imagine yet again because, you know, you have, there's no way to go.

[SPEAKER_04]: You have to do it.

[SPEAKER_04]: There's no, there's no hand-off, there's no nothing, especially with a baby.

[SPEAKER_04]: But that's beautiful what you said about just the bond you to create it together.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then how did you meet?

[SPEAKER_04]: She was straight woman.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not straight.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, she was living straight life.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is a big thing for her.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we can't say that.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's straight.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's not straight.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's not straight.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but yeah, she was married to a man.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she, she was living that straight lifestyle.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, married to kids, then that ended.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we met and I was happy that I never date anyone that had kids before.

[SPEAKER_01]: ever.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was a quite new thing for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously I had a kid.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was nice to share that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her kids were a bit older.

[SPEAKER_01]: So her kids are 9 and 7.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they were a little bit older.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's like me.

[SPEAKER_01]: That minor level.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, really 7.

[SPEAKER_01]: But they're really good with my son.

[SPEAKER_01]: And everyone gets on really well, weirdly.

[SPEAKER_04]: But it's nice to be with somebody who's bent through it, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: We've been together nearly two years and we've just moved in together because she lived in London and I lived in Brighton but she's just moved to Brighton.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right and how's it all going?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well it's like I went from being a single parent to now [SPEAKER_01]: having a bit of help and then forgetting that two people it's so much not easier but just with two adults it's a lot better but then also my single parent head is still a bit like hey you know I've got this I can look after my son so it's quite difficult to accept the help but when there's three of them [SPEAKER_01]: three kids, just chaos is not pure chaos.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not used to that.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Is there joint custody happening with your girlfriend as well for her two kids?

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's a bit more complicated I think with those two.

[SPEAKER_04]: Gotcha, guys.

[SPEAKER_04]: So you have your son 50-50 at this point?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, complete 50-50, yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: And how did your ex handle the new partner and that dynamic?

[SPEAKER_04]: Because now you're bringing, yeah, what was it like bringing a new adult into your son's life for everyone involved?

[SPEAKER_04]: And I know you can't speak for your ex or your partner a bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: But well, actually, she, my ex, my ex wife, she actually met someone immediately after we broke up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm not to go into too much detail, but it wasn't great.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she moved my son into the house immediately as well, yeah, I know.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I don't really want to not much detail into that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I guess was used to that on her side of having another partner.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't introduce him to anyone until I met my partner now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I dated a little bit, but no one serious.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, for me it was quite different.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was very careful to get quite a long time.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was also quite enjoying the fact that they're just me and him thing, even though it was really, really, really hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: it was just beneficial in the long run, I think.

[SPEAKER_01]: I did it quite slowly, but then, yeah, everything's fine, everyone gets on reasonably well.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't really have to see much of each other, because we do drop off at school, so you just pick up at school, and you don't really have to see the other person.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's good, and so...

[SPEAKER_04]: So now you're all moved in, you're figuring out this parenting thing together, and I spoke with someone earlier in the season.

[SPEAKER_04]: Jose were alone, he's known, he's known his name, and why C.

Gay dad, and he's been a single gay dad to three for their whole lives, and the oldest is 13, and he's just recently brought a partner in, [SPEAKER_04]: just the dynamics and how it's like everyone has to work hard to make sure the spouse feels welcome but also it's just super complicated and I'm wondering if you can speak to just the things like you like you kind of alluded to it earlier your single mom I'm I'm in single mom no no no I got this I can do this so like accepting the help but then also like when it comes [SPEAKER_04]: you have your methods and she probably has her methods and how do you come together on that because I can imagine that can be tough like figuring it out when the kids are already here and their certain ages and that you've already been doing it for so long separately.

[SPEAKER_01]: well it's all it's new but these are things that are popping up.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean I think our parenting styles are quite similar most of the time I think I'm a little strictor a little bit um then her I think she's a bit more relaxed which in it's probably a good thing for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's a very relaxed person my girlfriend.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's very chill, she's very relaxed, she's very smart [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm a bit uptight and a bit of a control freak.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like to have things, you know, like, I need to know what I'm doing and I have everything in a row.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we're quite good for each other.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think we balance each other out.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the discipline thing, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to, it's already rearing its head.

[SPEAKER_01]: Our kids are getting very comfortable with the other parent now.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's some attitude that's coming out, which is a compliment, I guess, because now they're still comfortable with us.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then it's like, where do you when do you start?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to obviously have to have.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then as they get older, you know, around the corner is teenager for the eldest.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's going to be a whole new challenge.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, also now, now that you're they're all together, your youngest one is seeing what the older ones are allowed to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: At six certain age.

[UNKNOWN]: And [SPEAKER_04]: You know, the older ones, they're their different age and so like I I do feel like I was stricter with my kids when they were little or and as they've gotten older I've had to kind of let go the reins of it because they start requiring this independence and parenting does look different at different ages But then I know from my kids like there's a four year age gap my daughter, you know, she has certain things that he doesn't but he's seeing it [SPEAKER_04]: And he knows.

[SPEAKER_04]: And he tells me constantly, so when I'm 11, I get this right.

[SPEAKER_04]: But so you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_04]: So like depending on what your girlfriend is going to give the older ones or at you to work together to do the younger ones going to expect that to 100% but we're kind of on the same line with that source stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's more that it's my son.

[SPEAKER_01]: it's just full on copy mode now so the middle one he's really really good with my son they got on really well he's seven and my son's four and I think he's enjoying being a big brother because he's always been the youngest so he's like he's like really enjoying looking after my son but there's a lot of copying going on now so my four-year-old is starting to behave like the seven-year-old.

[SPEAKER_01]: The good am the bad.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just a learning process, isn't it?

[SPEAKER_04]: And they're learning too.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the whole family is learning.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that's the thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: And one of the things that complicates it, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's only one person learning.

[SPEAKER_04]: Then there's just the one person.

[SPEAKER_04]: But everybody has to learn how to blend everybody else in.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think that's what I was trying to say about what Jose was telling me as well.

[SPEAKER_04]: Everybody has to learn how to blend it all together.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's not just the adults.

[SPEAKER_04]: everybody.

[SPEAKER_04]: It comes with its complications for sure, but it's beautiful.

[SPEAKER_04]: And if there's one thing queer family's going to know how to do, it's how to put chosen family together and make units work.

[SPEAKER_04]: For sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll be right back.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, so what's going on with you now?

[SPEAKER_04]: You're blended.

[SPEAKER_04]: You moved in.

[SPEAKER_04]: Kids are getting along great and what else is happening in your world.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I wrote a book about queer parenting and mainly the history of queer parenting because when I wanted to become a parent, it was all very [SPEAKER_01]: knew in that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't even know queer people could have kit.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I knew they could have kids, but I just didn't, I didn't even know if it was a possibility for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know about the legal loopholes, the legalities of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know anyone else that I'd done it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't see it on TV.

[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of people, a lot of people grow up don't think they're thinking, well, a lot queer people grow up thinking, I can't have kids, or that's not a reality for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know I did.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, many people I've spoken to on the show, same, same, same, same, same.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like when I started trying what 12 years ago, there were no books.

[SPEAKER_04]: Now there are books, and now there's podcasts like this.

[SPEAKER_04]: There's stuff, but there's still not enough.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, right.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's so new.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's just 12 years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's nothing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and there was nothing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's just a really small amount of time.

[SPEAKER_04]: Those guide books.

[SPEAKER_04]: No, no.

[SPEAKER_04]: And with queer family building, there are so many decisions that have to be made.

[SPEAKER_04]: And scenarios that need to be thought through.

[SPEAKER_04]: You learn by talking to your other queer friends who did it before you, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: So when I first started the show, I would call me in my previous co-host called that gay drafting.

[SPEAKER_04]: You would basically just do what your friends did that.

[SPEAKER_04]: You knew had done it right before you.

[SPEAKER_04]: right so we like our friends had their kid four years before we had our first and so we literally just used their exact path like we didn't really know that using a known donor like we had knew that it was kind of an option but we didn't know anybody who had done that so that was seemed way too crazy and complicated they our friends had used a sperm bank so we used a sperm bank right but now there's more to your point about your book so keep going with the book [SPEAKER_01]: Gay drafting is just this great.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to use can I use that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's expression.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, please.

[SPEAKER_04]: But that's a search for human.

[SPEAKER_04]: The gay drafting.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I did though.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I just called my ex.

[SPEAKER_01]: My ex had done it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I just said, how did you do that?

[SPEAKER_01]: How did you have that child?

[SPEAKER_01]: Can you help me?

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my God, wait, you just made me think of something when me and my wife started trying my ex and her wife were trying at the same time as well.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we would call each other too.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we basically did the same thing too, which is funny.

[SPEAKER_04]: So we were like getting advice from each other as we're going through it.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's super common.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then use and talking to your ex is so lesbian.

[SPEAKER_01]: So lesbian.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we all knew that was going to be a big part of queer parenting anyway, wasn't it?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the amount of people that have asked me, X's, actually since having my son, two of my exes have gone on to have kids and both of them, they'd obviously didn't come to me for all the advice, but they came to me to just be like, how do you do certain things?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's just, it's a, it's a, it's a minefield.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is, it's a scary and it's a lot of, it's a lot of information and it's so overwhelming sometimes, [SPEAKER_01]: get 100% and that was the reason why I wanted to write the book.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so so talk about the book like what kind of stuff is in it and what how because I have a I made it we wrote a book based on the podcast and in the first two after the first two seasons and we go through things but we use like transcripts from the show like like that.

[SPEAKER_04]: So what is the format of yours?

[SPEAKER_04]: How do you do it and like give me a rundown of what what people can find inside it?

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just a chronological timeline of [SPEAKER_01]: queer parenting from the beginning because it's obviously always existed but in just different forms.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean nowadays queer people get together and choose to have children usually whereas in the past it would have probably been a case of someone having a baby in a hedge sexual relationship and then maybe going off to form a queer.

[SPEAKER_01]: relationship, and then bringing that child into that relationship, which doesn't mean that it makes them any less queued, so it now becomes a queer family.

[SPEAKER_01]: So just lots of different examples of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then a bit of my own story, and then also different ways of having children, so reciprocal IVF, so advocacy, adoption, IVF, inheriting children from other families.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, just there are lots of different ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: Being queer doesn't always mean sexuality, does it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that can be anything.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, truth, true.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so it's kind of a queer history slash ways to do it kind of book.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, kind of.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, pretty much.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's awesome.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's awesome.

[SPEAKER_04]: What's it called?

[SPEAKER_04]: A short history of queer parenting.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's a good title.

[SPEAKER_04]: I like that.

[SPEAKER_04]: And is it out now?

[SPEAKER_04]: Can people get it now?

[SPEAKER_04]: It's out now.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's out now.

[SPEAKER_04]: And people can get it.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's due to a preferred place where people get it.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know some people like to raise up indie bookstores or, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: It is on Amazon, but yeah, we do have to encourage to go to the, to the indie bookstores, especially the queer ones.

[SPEAKER_01]: If they're all any left, go to those ones.

[SPEAKER_04]: And you can also, like, go to your local queer bookstore and request that they order something.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can do that.

[SPEAKER_04]: You can do that.

[SPEAKER_04]: You can also do that at your local library.

[SPEAKER_04]: If, like you can say, I really want this book, can you get it?

[SPEAKER_04]: They'll get it, which is fun too.

[SPEAKER_04]: Because we get to lift up the queer voices, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: So y'all, everybody, go out there, get the book, go to your local library, go to your local indie bookstore, and queer bookstore, and tell them they need, they need to order a couple of books.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, do that.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's what I do.

[SPEAKER_04]: you know what I did when our book came out.

[SPEAKER_04]: I used to go to the big bookstores and I would find because that would find the one copy that they had bought and you know, and then I would bring it down to like the display tape, the main book display tape.

[SPEAKER_01]: I did that with my last book.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's a fun thing to do.

[SPEAKER_04]: Just to have it there.

[SPEAKER_04]: What other books?

[SPEAKER_04]: Wait, you've written more books.

[SPEAKER_04]: What other books have you written?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, before this I wrote a short history of queer women, which was a chronological timeline of queer people and lesbians right from the beginning until now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I love history and I was just sick of not seeing myself represented.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I went and found them all and put them all in a book.

[SPEAKER_04]: Ooh, so who was the first one?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, who are some of the...

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess you can't say Safa when you would be the kind of person's recognised you would say.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then Safa was also supposed to have had a child, which makes her a queer parent too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, look at that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Who else?

[SPEAKER_01]: In general, beats set the worst, Lorraine Hansbury, there's billions.

[SPEAKER_01]: People that you wouldn't have heard of, people that you know, people that are hidden, black women, black working class women, trans men, that, you know, trans men and lesbian often have a very shared history, which is really nice to celebrate and look at in more detail.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think this thing's like that, and it's not an academic text, it's very [SPEAKER_01]: difficult to read, isn't it?

[SPEAKER_01]: And can be a bit jarring.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's quite nice to just have a bit fun in our queer world known again.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's awesome.

[SPEAKER_04]: So everybody go check that out too.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm always saying that we need to know our queer history.

[SPEAKER_04]: We need to know more about it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we don't talk about the lesbians as much as we talk about the men who are gay.

[SPEAKER_04]: No way.

[SPEAKER_04]: No, we really don't.

[SPEAKER_04]: So this is that fun is um do you include a free to callo in the book?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like do we consider [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_04]: She was in that right.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, she was.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Awesome.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god, I'm going to check this book out.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to check them all out.

[SPEAKER_04]: But that's really fun.

[SPEAKER_04]: Get to know your queer history.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's really important, especially right now for us to really dig down into our history because we might have to call on the giants whose shoulders we stand upon for the next battles ahead of us, if you know what I mean.

[SPEAKER_04]: Wow, that's amazing and I wish you and your girlfriend a wonderful blended future together.

[SPEAKER_04]: It sounds like it's going great so far.

[SPEAKER_04]: This was really fun.

[SPEAKER_04]: It was really awesome to talk.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm excited to read your books and they are all, they are out now so go check them out.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you very much, thank you.

[SPEAKER_04]: And if anybody wants to find you, is there anywhere you tell people to go to find you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, on Instagram, just a courtesy law, KRCY, L-O-O-E-H-R, I don't use X anymore or whatever it's called.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing, not a nice place to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure isn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: Although Instagram owned the same people, but not us.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's still not as violent for me as ex and Facebook have proven to be.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm afraid I still have Facebook because you kind of have to for your business.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: But I thought of getting rid of it too because I'm like afraid to open Facebook at this time in this day and age now because I like I get so much hate.

[SPEAKER_04]: I get so much hate.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's just disgusting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really?

[SPEAKER_04]: On Facebook.

[SPEAKER_04]: On Facebook.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Here's given you how you own Facebook.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, anytime I put up a trans story, they come out of their graves and like the trolls, they are, say the most beautiful, hideous thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a much older comment on Facebook isn't it?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it is.

[SPEAKER_04]: They'll attack my family.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's really, it's really an ugly place, but I haven't gotten rid of it yet.

[SPEAKER_04]: And sometimes I get some of that on Instagram, but not as much as Facebook.

[SPEAKER_04]: Go figure.

[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, this has really been a pleasure.

[SPEAKER_04]: It sounds like your cat wants you to pay attention to it, too.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm going to let you go, but this was awesome.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I thank you so much for coming on, Kirstie.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_04]: So in the end, Kirstie got cut off because we had a bad connection.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if it's because we were.

[SPEAKER_04]: across the pond so to speak with each other, or I don't know if there was some internet glitch, but anyway, it cursed to get cut off as she was saying goodbye.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm going to say the good bite for her.

[SPEAKER_04]: That was an awesome conversation and everybody should go out and buy her books because we need to raise up the queer voices.

[SPEAKER_04]: A special thank you once again to California cryo bank for being a sponsor of this episode.

[SPEAKER_04]: Use code queerfam25 for a free level 2 subscription to their donor catalog.

[SPEAKER_04]: And tune in next week for another amazing episode of queer family goodness.

[SPEAKER_04]: Whew, well folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And if you did enjoy it, feel free to listen to another or watch another.

[SPEAKER_04]: I have so many episodes for your listening or viewing pleasure.

[SPEAKER_04]: Just go pick one and enjoy.

[SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot.

[SPEAKER_04]: They're really nice.

[SPEAKER_04]: And also, if you really do like this show, please, I know I say it all the time, but please do consider supporting the show on Patreon.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're just gonna go to patreon.com slash the queer family podcast.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're gonna pick a tear, you're gonna join, and you're gonna get that bonus content.

[SPEAKER_04]: And you're also gonna get my love and adoration for the rest of my life.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love you all, thanks for tuning in, keep on tuning in, and I'll see you next time.