[SPEAKER_02]: This episode and the entire year of episodes is proudly brought to you by California Cryobank.

[SPEAKER_02]: Use Code ClearFam25 for a free level 2 subscription to their donor catalog.

[SPEAKER_04]: Make them babies y'all and then come talk about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, she's so funny when she was pregnant with our sons.

[SPEAKER_00]: She would be like, oh my god, you're so pregnant.

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you excited?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, Tom, not keeping it at like eight months in like Georgia.

[SPEAKER_00]: What?

[SPEAKER_00]: Take y'all, I'm not keeping this warm.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're like, oh, at least you didn't abort it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Few.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm not, it's, it's not mine.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or like they would be with her husband and like someone would say something to him and she would be like, oh, it's not his.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, we'd have fun with it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I like her.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's spicy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome, y'all, to the queer family podcast, to show all about family, but with gay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Speaking of gay, I'm your gay host, Jamie.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is the show that celebrates highlights, uplifts, and normalizes LGBTQIA plus families in all of our fab Uless identities.

[SPEAKER_02]: And y'all, if you heard the little intro clip, this episode is fab Uless.

[SPEAKER_02]: Alon Ravel keeps it real.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's who I got to sit down with.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God, and it is a funny and honest episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: Alon is a dad who does not hold back about the highs, the lows, the costs, literal and emotional of making a clear family.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's so good.

[SPEAKER_02]: From his surrogates, amazing one [SPEAKER_02]: The things he said in this episode like we are parents are architects of love and all the things.

[SPEAKER_02]: This was a great conversation and it's really reminded me why I love doing this show and why I'm so glad y'all keep tuning in.

[SPEAKER_02]: Before I roll the tape, just a couple of updates in our personal life.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had our Halloween party.

[SPEAKER_02]: Halloween is officially over.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yay parents, you did it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We made it through and the queer family podcast and the Gatri Arx and Gaze with Kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: We all co-hosted a Halloween party here in NYC and it was wonderful.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had a great turnout.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was so fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to do more and more parties.

[SPEAKER_02]: So stay tuned for more and I hope y'all are staying safe.

[SPEAKER_02]: My family.

[SPEAKER_02]: Once Halloween ends then we enter birthday slash holiday mayhem time because all of our birthdays [SPEAKER_02]: including Thanksgiving and what I call Santa time because we don't do the religious thing, but my kids, you do celebrate the season of giving.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or I should say, my wife and I celebrate the season of giving and my kids celebrate the season of taking.

[SPEAKER_02]: And boy, is it an epic season that starts?

[SPEAKER_02]: November 1st.

[SPEAKER_02]: So here we are, birthdays are starting and then the season of taking.

[SPEAKER_02]: The season of [SPEAKER_02]: Alright, let's roll the tape.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a really great one.

[SPEAKER_02]: I hope you get some good laughter out of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I did and also some really great take away moments, which I also got.

[SPEAKER_02]: Alright, let's roll the tape.

[SPEAKER_02]: Helen, Bula, Jerson, the only real person that I ever call to to roll this tape.

[SPEAKER_02]: Helen and Bula aren't real.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have assistance.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have help.

[SPEAKER_02]: Please roll that tape.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, thanks for having me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, thank you for being here.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've already were like vibing, having a great conversation already.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I was like, oh my god, let me just let me hit record because we got to get it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We got to get it on tape so we get all the good stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm really excited to hear your whole story and just to get to know you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, thank you for having me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've been listening to you for a while now and now you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really excited to actually get to be on the show this time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love that.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, so before we get into the nitty-gritty, well, actually, to get into the nitty-gritty, it is time for the moment of truth, the 32nd elevator pitch.

[SPEAKER_02]: You need to tell our listeners at home why you're here and why you're talking to the queer fam squad.

[SPEAKER_02]: Are you ready?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm ready.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, get set.

[SPEAKER_02]: Go.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm here to talk about what a gay family means and is at the end of the day.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's about building safety and creating love.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, people always say, you know, this argument is being gay.

[SPEAKER_00]: A choice is, are you choosing the life and it's like, no, but choosing to have a gay, queer family is.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the biggest choice.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there's no oops, we're pregnant moment.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to talk about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: The choice to build an emotional [SPEAKER_02]: family boom 30 seconds the the siren came through to let you know was come oh my god you made a point that I've actually never made on this show in my almost 300 episodes alone thank you for that yes being gay is not a choice but choosing to have a family a gay family [SPEAKER_02]: is the biggest and there are no accidents.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there are very few, very few.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not in my world, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: But there's always the outliers.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there's no way that, you know, we didn't choose this.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we didn't think through this.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we didn't fear that we couldn't do this or have this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that we're not thinking about all the things that can happen because of this choice.

[SPEAKER_02]: 100% and I do talk about that a lot about the fact that we're so intentional and because we have to be but I've never actually like brought it down to that simple simple simple point of we don't choose to be gay but we choose to become parents and that's why you should give us mad respect you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're not like sleepwalking it's apparent at over here, you know, we're architecting it and that is really important.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's important because so many queer people don't get to architect their lives or not.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, and suddenly we have this opportunity if we're lucky to do something like this if we have the funds or the means or the people in our lives to support us and it's like, well, how can I or architect safety and community when I didn't have that growing up?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so powerful.

[SPEAKER_02]: So powerful, Alon, you are just dropping mics left and right, yes, thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like you should bring you on as a co-host here and there because you're dropping some real good points and it's so true.

[SPEAKER_02]: You are right on.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I thank you for saying all of this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to hear about your story.

[SPEAKER_02]: So let's get into it.

[SPEAKER_02]: How did how did you create your family?

[SPEAKER_02]: How did it all start out?

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's hear.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've been with my husband.

[SPEAKER_00]: We met actually in college back in 2010.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we've been together quite a while, 15 years, and we've been married for almost [SPEAKER_02]: Whoa, you, you, you, you, you let's be in it to be right on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hi.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hi.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like the truth.

[SPEAKER_00]: You want the truth?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's two years younger.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was at UMS Amherst.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was, I was with the boyfriend I had.

[SPEAKER_00]: I met him at orientation in college.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was with him all until like the middle of senior year of college.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was, I thought I would marry that guy.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's like, I'm leaving college in a few months, and I was in an honors frat, and so was my boyfriend, that husband, and I was like, if I don't use everything here to meet people, maybe people in the real world is fucking scary, and I want to like find my person here.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I was intentional about like going and like seeking out who is the guy that I want to like date, partner, even Mary, [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's just interesting because I think just in the parenthoods are you have to be super intentional too, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, yep.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a T.

But come on, who was wearing like spares with like skinny jeans and zippers on the side on the bottom?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh, who's this guy?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, but he was, why was he a freshman at the time?

[SPEAKER_02]: He was like a sophomore.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was a sophomore and I also liked that he came.

[SPEAKER_00]: So there was an inter chapter of N at my school for the Honors Fra.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he came to it from Cornell.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, who is this little gay Cornell boy?

[SPEAKER_00]: From Cornell.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I like when you see, I got like this, and then he told me he was like science major, majoring in physics.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, when you're smart.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, so I was like, I'm so interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like you're an outlier amongst gay men.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, not to stereotype, but it's more on the lesbian side of things like I already said.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like, you know, I'm a serial monogamous, and I make no qualms about it, but I feel like you are too.

[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't call myself a serial man, but not that far, but I would ask where the gay comes in.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, this is a man, men are gross.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I see this all the time just hearing people.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, listen, I may be gay, but I know how men think and straight men think like gay men, they just do it with the different gender.

[SPEAKER_00]: Truth, like, we're gross.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're insane.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, well, that, like we are, we have like our, our, we're very sexually motivated.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, your brains are down there.

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess a hundred percent.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, some of us over here on this side are brains are down there too, not gonna lie.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I think that's important.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think we should have some part of our brains down there.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's really important, agreed, agreed.

[SPEAKER_02]: Unless you're asexual and more power to you, but I didn't get that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you, like, give, I don't give a shit, just don't let me not do me.

[SPEAKER_00]: But no, I mean, I would call myself more like a serial relationship person.

[SPEAKER_00]: that's the trauma that's talk about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah that's the like the need to like be validated and loved and accepted and safe again that we're safe.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've used it a few times already.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so heat.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, what was it like growing up for you?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I grew up in New York.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I was supposed to everything with Israeli parents, Jew and New York, right, and basically first generation there.

[SPEAKER_00]: So everything's in your fingertips and you're exposed to it all in the 90s.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was [SPEAKER_00]: a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: I went to like the Asheva up until like eighth grade and then I was thrust into the public schools of New York City in Brooklyn.

[SPEAKER_00]: And suddenly like not everyone was Jewish and white and I was like, huh?

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's also not a world that my family understood.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Navigating a space in a world that they couldn't help me navigate as a closeted queer person.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, and you knew, you know, finally age.

[SPEAKER_00]: I got hard watching Bart Simonson when I was 60 years old.

[SPEAKER_00]: Very good.

[SPEAKER_00]: People want to come on.

[SPEAKER_01]: You got it, dude.

[SPEAKER_00]: What I wanted.

[SPEAKER_02]: Calvanga.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Calvanga.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's amazing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so you knew about your family didn't know I don't know what they knew like I was starting to be active when I was like 15 years old in with other men exploring.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going sex, but just exploring sexually and [SPEAKER_00]: That was scary, but I was ready.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I didn't work, I was ready.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to feeder camp.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you were.

[SPEAKER_00]: So like meet other guys.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I never went to camp until I was at age.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I met some guy, because I was in the feeder club who was a counselor at the feeder camp.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, wait, I can have access to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And all these other people for a whole summer.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's sort of where like a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: a lot of comfort came to be where there's others like me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know way from parents to monitor, which was invigorating and also pretty fucked up.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel you, I feel you a lot, because I'm the theater kid, too, and theater was just the place for the misfits to go.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there were those of us who like really love to sing in dance, like who really had like a talent and a passion for it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then there were the kids who were just misfits, [SPEAKER_02]: hanging amidst, you know, like, yeah, we felt safe together.

[SPEAKER_02]: We were family.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because we were creatives.

[SPEAKER_00]: We were creatives.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're artists, we're different, we're liberal, we're open-minded, we're fashionable, we're whatever it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have to sort of eating like, you know, all the things I love your transparency like in all the ways all the things, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, so sure we were all able to find community where we didn't have it before and that's that's what I like people don't give like Peter could such a bad rap and like yet they're so annoying.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they really are.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was one.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they are so annoying.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're so annoying, but like they're just looking for validation and love.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, truth.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're making so many parallels to my life that I see in different ways, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I, you know, not the boy thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I know it's gay when I was like eight.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was calling this barrio sexual.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you were.

[SPEAKER_00]: Literally, like I was finding the words or thinking I was at such a young age because I [SPEAKER_00]: senior year of high school my like best female friend we were dating and and it like the parts worked like because I loved her like I enjoyed her and I'm young in the wind blue on my dick at 17 and I would get excited so it didn't matter you know like it's sort of when you're a young person attention love yeah [SPEAKER_00]: works.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so you excited.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like for me, it was companionship and like a sense of safety and also it was sexual and I had no problems like during the things like it wasn't you know, but [SPEAKER_00]: you were getting someone off.

[SPEAKER_00]: You were getting to enjoy someone else and that's part of growing up.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, truth.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then it took me getting older and like being away and realizing, oh, I can try this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let me try this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let me just try it and see.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then, oh, wait a second.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to do that again.

[SPEAKER_02]: That is where it's, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So it wasn't even like trying it for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I just always [SPEAKER_00]: I never questioned it like I always think even when I was with that girlfriend like I was like oh I'm that and this it was offering or it was an end.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to stereotype and I know there are exceptions to everything and of course you can't stereotype.

[SPEAKER_02]: But at the same time, I feel like a lot of guys that I talk to say something similar like they knew and also they could do the other and I feel like there are a lot of women I talk to, cis women who are somewhat like me, same thing like it took time, it took us time to figure it out.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's because of also [SPEAKER_00]: the world, the world, the US.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's take a step back.

[SPEAKER_00]: A scary country.

[SPEAKER_00]: The island now.

[SPEAKER_00]: The country we live in really doesn't create space for women to be anything other than straight.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And similarly for straight men too, it there's like it's so normalized to have a girlfriend that you know very quickly if you're different or gay because you don't fit in the society else norms of what a being a man is.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: It stands out where women can blend better because women are quieter.

[SPEAKER_02]: are made to be and are more hidden more hidden.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so we can, you can hide.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we can accidentally hide it deep down and not even realize because of the constrictions that are just put on us from birth.

[SPEAKER_00]: the constructions of like sexual exploration and sexual like satisfaction.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a great society.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now women shouldn't take time and all because they're going to kill the bait.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to make autistic babies.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the new thing coming out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's actually be able to pronounce a set of metaphane first before we're going to because that's where I'm at like watching that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, this is just so [SPEAKER_00]: But what is happening?

[SPEAKER_02]: Where it's solid is happening.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's what's happening.

[SPEAKER_02]: Makes no sense whatsoever.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is a dark analogy, but not even anologist, it's just I'm gonna say it and it's controversial, but like my family was in the Holocaust and always when you read the history books and you listen to it, how did people let that happen?

[SPEAKER_00]: How did it happen?

[SPEAKER_00]: How did no one care?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, you know what?

[SPEAKER_00]: I get it now.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do too.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm seeing it.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're like seeing things happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: Where people are like, oh, just don't say anything.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just go to work.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just do your thing because if you don't want to get in trouble, you don't want to piss off anyone.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want to be attacked by ice.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want to like say anything about house sign.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want to...

[SPEAKER_00]: And just, you're safe.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and you don't want to get in an argument, and you don't want to lose your people, because you don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because everybody's afraid to tell their truth right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's literally what's happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what it was like, probably.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you're sort of like not me, not my problem.

[SPEAKER_00]: And now I get it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I get how that happened.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's scary.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and here we are.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, not to go too deep into that because that's a dark role.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know, we're getting, we're going all over and I love it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we have to to speak of like, you know, Holocaust and like the end of the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about family.

[SPEAKER_02]: and talk about how we brought new life into this crazy messed up world.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, but we're bringing the right side of life.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're raising the children who are going to change the world in my opinion.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when did the talk of baby making time into the picture and what was your conversation surrounding it?

[SPEAKER_00]: I always know I wanted to be a father.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have a bad relationship with my dad.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're don't talk.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember him not being present when I was young and not getting what I needed from him.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I quickly told myself, and I was a pre-teen that like, I'm going to be a dad to a boy, and I'm going to do it right.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's when it started.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a core memory of me like [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to be a good dad one day and that's my truth and then like obviously I got married and I was like this is expensive Do we adopt no I wanted it to be biologically mine because of that trauma I needed to fix in my head and like the promise I need to myself That's something I really better to me and [SPEAKER_00]: We went to speak to just that of curiosity, like a year into our marriage.

[SPEAKER_00]: We went to speak to circle, servicing in Boston, which is like one of the biggest.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we went into that completely cold, like no idea.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I was just like, we laughed at like three hour meeting, feeling like, [SPEAKER_00]: we can't do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: So overwhelming.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so overwhelming.

[SPEAKER_00]: We were so young.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't have the finances.

[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't have a house yet.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we were like, not yet.

[SPEAKER_00]: We can't do this yet.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe one day.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then, um, and we sort of left that in the pandemic happened.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we had bought our house in 2019.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank God.

[SPEAKER_00]: Lucky.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's out.

[SPEAKER_00]: We wouldn't, we wouldn't have been divorced being in that apartment.

[SPEAKER_02]: We closed on our house, the day the lockdown happened.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but then it's a co-op works is a building and they weren't moving anyone in and they didn't tell us so we were displaced for three months.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it was actually really, actually it turned out to be good because we had to get out because the new person was coming in because we sold to buy.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it actually turned out to be great.

[SPEAKER_02]: We just went on the Airbnb map and found the best price home and we just kept jumping from home to home.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was awesome because we were in the country.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we didn't have to worry about going into work, you know, because it's pandemic.

[SPEAKER_02]: We like stated a house, one of the houses had a waterfall behind it.

[SPEAKER_02]: serendipitous, but it was pretty crazy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, the pandemic happened and my husband works at a biotech company.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was the first employee in the IPO during the 2021 and if you watch, know anything about the stock market during the time, it was like, shhh, and we were like, should we sell some of your stock?

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's buy a baby.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, whoa, whoa.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, for I was like, I was like, he's like, you wanted this, like, let's buy the kid, let's do it now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And just so no trolls are like, you know, you're so gross.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're talking about buying a kid.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no, no, don't get it twisted.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's because we need a lot of money to make these babies.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like for the trolls, like, shut the fuck up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because you went and you like you like just into a woman and how to baby and then you're not are you even a parent because there was no like I'm not going to another country and stealing and buying a baby on a black market right now it doesn't work that way.

[SPEAKER_00]: My key to it is very, very, very much so brought into this world with so much consideration, love, attention, support, admiration, like he is a fuck you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm like, I'm going to love you.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's going to be a social media clip right there.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's true though, like get out of here, like with that bullshit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why are you been listening to this?

[SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, you're saying all the things that I type back to the trolls.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Why are you here?

[SPEAKER_02]: Why are you here?

[SPEAKER_02]: Go somewhere else.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think you need to come out of the closet, baby.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like why are you here?

[SPEAKER_00]: Go do something else.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't have time going on like [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I didn't even say the things.

[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, also sure we did that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we said, like, hey, it's time to like be able to afford.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let me say it the right way, be able to afford the child.

[SPEAKER_00]: We say it however you want to say it, because I love it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, because it's just like it makes me sad, like that we got no support, like frankly, for it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it costs us $220,000 to have our child.

[SPEAKER_02]: say it louder for the people in the back.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot of we work hard and there's nothing covering us.

[SPEAKER_00]: There was nothing covering us for this.

[SPEAKER_00]: We weren't considered infertile less beings are at times and can get some sort of coverage somewhat.

[SPEAKER_02]: sometimes, sometimes, but they push back and then they they, they, they, they would approve that we've been trying of course we've been trying nothing's happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know that after I've had to fight Blue Cross Blue Shields for a year after my son was born?

[SPEAKER_00]: because they kept building our serigates insurance, calling her the mother.

[SPEAKER_00]: And about there is no mom.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's no mom.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's two dads on the birth certificate.

[SPEAKER_00]: There is no mom.

[SPEAKER_00]: She even if she was biologically related.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right, which she's not.

[SPEAKER_00]: She has no right to this child.

[SPEAKER_00]: She was the serigate.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a contract and there's legal documents to prove this.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, you have to pay for the day one in the hospital because the mom's medical insurance isn't billing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, okay, keep saying mom to me, say mom, say mom again.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, you're talking to gay men, like this, your language is wrong.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's offensive.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's, you're also, what happens to people who their mom dies?

[SPEAKER_00]: or they like what or their grandparents have them and they're adopted like and the moms are drug addict and on the picture like what right that's not a mom anyway we fought them legally and one wow yes and like they changed their like policy [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wow.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we got to get into that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But first, wait, let's get to you sold stock.

[SPEAKER_02]: You got enough.

[SPEAKER_02]: And let's let's do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then I want to hear about this because that's that's bomb as the kids don't say anymore, but I still say the bomb.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so, but okay, so you got the money or at least partially some of the money.

[SPEAKER_00]: we back some of the money we needed to do it and then we went back to circle and we're like how much is a class now because it had been years and there were some of their things slightly changed and we started the whole process December of 2020 or Sun was born October of 2022.

[SPEAKER_02]: took two years.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's actually considered for them at the time it was considered a long time, but since then it's been, now it's like three years plus for some people.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like some people has takes forever and some people it's like super quick and you're really lucky and that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

[SPEAKER_00]: we did it all through them.

[SPEAKER_00]: So like we did, uh, um, we created our profile.

[SPEAKER_00]: We got an ad donor through their program.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we like obviously created the embryos.

[SPEAKER_02]: What were you looking for in an ad donor?

[SPEAKER_02]: Might I ask?

[SPEAKER_02]: Cause this is where we get.

[SPEAKER_02]: I call it the search for the superhuman week.

[SPEAKER_02]: So some of us get a little kuku kuchio.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, we're not, you know, not you.

[SPEAKER_00]: No.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, she couldn't be dumb.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So like, and a sign of dumb, we, there's a girl we call her sushi Hannah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry if you're listening.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, sushi Hannah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is she just like, I almost liked her and then I watched her video on the profile and she's like, I like making sushi.

[SPEAKER_00]: My husband's like, we can't have sushi Hannah, but you like the bike lot trickle.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you did get a little con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con con [SPEAKER_01]: Oh wow yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: We wanted someone young as young as we could get that's not weird.

[SPEAKER_00]: We wanted someone who actually hasn't transferred before, hasn't like donated before.

[SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.

[SPEAKER_00]: We wanted a first time donor.

[SPEAKER_00]: We wanted her to be white because our family's white and it's already hard enough.

[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't need to add the level.

[SPEAKER_00]: We wanted to have [SPEAKER_00]: and extra burning.

[SPEAKER_00]: We wanted someone who in our eyes was at least average attraction and and had like a decent look to her.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we got it was beautiful.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I saw her, she checked out things the reason.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I should say at this point, when I saw the profile, what does that ever?

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, [SPEAKER_00]: She's brand new to the program.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's young.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's never donated.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's smart.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's gorgeous.

[SPEAKER_00]: She is half Italian.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's got like some Jew in her.

[SPEAKER_00]: She kind of could look like she came from a mix of like me and my husband's family together.

[SPEAKER_00]: actually like a kind of look when she might be related to us.

[SPEAKER_00]: She had a good head on her shoulders and the only thing was she said she wanted it closed and I was like we need it to be open.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they asked her and she said I'll talk to them and then she decided to do it open and she is in our lives now to this day.

[SPEAKER_02]: in the sperm bank world, those of us who use sperm banks, we don't get videos, nope.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when I was doing it, we only got baby pictures, we didn't even get adult pictures.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now they have added adult pictures if you pay extra at most places, but at these banks, there are no videos.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there is no option of like actually having this donor in your life.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's the option, the open donor, where when the [SPEAKER_02]: child or children turn 18, you can reach out.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if the donor still is open to it, then they then they can start a relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: But there's no option for what you got.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do think I wanted that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And now that I have it, I can't imagine not having it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's amazing that she agreed to it when she wasn't going to.

[SPEAKER_00]: She actually just visited us in Provinsown at our house to summer.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wow.

[SPEAKER_00]: With her boyfriend like, [SPEAKER_00]: It's just so cool because like she's family.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like she's an extension of family.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like no, she is not his mother.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, we never say that.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't believe that.

[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't believe that, but she is an extension of him.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like he had like he has like some exima on his arms and I was like, my family doesn't have an exima.

[SPEAKER_00]: What's this?

[SPEAKER_00]: So I like text her and I was like, hey, do you have exima?

[SPEAKER_00]: She was, yep, I do.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, you.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's what it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: You, you did that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, like, well, that's what it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, it's just cool because like, to my son, that's just part of his story.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he gets to access it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And having more people who love on him is never about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Never.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not about me or my husband.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's about him.

[SPEAKER_00]: So relationship is not even for us.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we all know that it's for him.

[SPEAKER_00]: We happen to like each other.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we happen to.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're lucky, but like same thing with our surrogate or surrogate too.

[SPEAKER_00]: We thought it would just be like you're doing this for us.

[SPEAKER_00]: And ever again, she is like also a sister like also visit us in our beach house.

[SPEAKER_00]: We talk all the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: The two of them are surrogate and add to our met for the first time at our sons first birthday party.

[SPEAKER_00]: They came from different parts of the country just to be there together.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It takes a village and we're the best at it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are the best at this chosen family.

[SPEAKER_02]: Although this is more than just chosen family.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is like, this is family family, like we're, you created real ties to your son and have created such a unit around it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just, well, what's not to love?

[SPEAKER_00]: No.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's incredible, like, watching.

[SPEAKER_00]: my son with our serigates to daughters, they came to visit the summer and like one of them is five and the other one is nine or ten.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting the age wrong.

[SPEAKER_00]: The five world and him who's almost three like watching them together is almost like their siblings and they were largely each other and they're like they were so nice and kind to each other the whole duration of the trip and he kept like crying for her after she left like missing her and it's just so special.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can't explain it to you unless you experience it like we are so lucky.

[SPEAKER_00]: I say how much are surrogate and either are better people than I am.

[SPEAKER_00]: on for us.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing I wouldn't do for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: We actually have one embryo left and it's my husband's sperm and our egg donor and we talk about what we're not, we're done having kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: But we talk about like, do we keep it?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because if our egg donor struggles to have kids later, would we give it back to her?

[SPEAKER_00]: And we said we totally would.

[SPEAKER_02]: about full circle.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's just a sense of like bond, um love, care.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel more connected at times to them than parts of my own family.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they are my family.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's my younger self family.

[SPEAKER_02]: See, we're the best.

[SPEAKER_02]: We really are as clear as we really are doing it right.

[SPEAKER_05]: I'm telling you what.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay y'all, quick pause.

[SPEAKER_02]: We were just talking about how with sperm banks, you don't usually get face-to-face relationships or video like a lawn hat with a zag donor.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is true, but you can still make it feel a lot less blind when you use a donor bank that takes screening, transparency, and choice seriously.

[SPEAKER_02]: like our sponsor, California Cryobank, California Cryobank, carefully screens each donor for health, genetics, and personal qualities, giving families great confidence in their choices.

[SPEAKER_02]: I use California Cryobank to make my family.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have great confidence in the choice we made, and I bet you will, too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Also, just so you know, since 2017, California cryo bank has not accepted any new donors who are only strictly anonymous.

[SPEAKER_02]: They require now that all new donors agree to some form of future contact or identification.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if that matters to you, they've taken care of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you are ready to start building your family, the clear way or just with donor sperm, you're gonna go to cryobank.com, use code queerfam25, and you're gonna get a free level two subscription to their donor catalog.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can also use that promo code for discount on a level three subscription, which gives you even more information about the donors.

[SPEAKER_02]: The more info we have, the better.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, go get to shop and for sperm and then make the babies and then come tell me about them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Back to the episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: love his love.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it took two years.

[SPEAKER_02]: You got your little boy.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's would just say three now.

[SPEAKER_00]: He'll be three in October.

[SPEAKER_02]: Amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it sounds like it's going great.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is.

[SPEAKER_02]: What have the conversations if there have been any surrounding his origin story to him?

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, non-sob.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Non-sob history is history.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's so important to normalize the story [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_00]: There is no secret.

[SPEAKER_00]: There is no issue, like, that's what I say.

[SPEAKER_00]: So he's mad and been around his surrogate, his ad owner.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we say, like, this is blah, blah, this is your ad owner.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is your surrogate.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we have so many books.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: To a book that we, I've been reading to him the last few nights because he's really into it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a story of like two dads who struggle to have a kid.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I've had to have a surrogate ad owner instead of like saying surrogate and ad owner.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just say the names of the people.

[SPEAKER_02]: of your person, oh, that's a good idea.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we're like, oh, this is Boba Bond.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is Boba and she's the one who gave me the egg.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is the one who carried her.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, oh, okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he loves the story.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's just, it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's no unveiling of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it just, [SPEAKER_00]: is.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's the normalization of it and the constant because I talk to some people who say, you know, oh, I don't think I don't think they're ready for the conversation yet, but we're planning it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're planning it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I say every time you just start, they'll pick up what what they need at the time they need it, you know?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, you're just not ready for it, boo.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: you're not ready the kids are ready to kids are always ready.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's their story.

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, they want to hear their story.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're not ready.

[SPEAKER_00]: Ready for what?

[SPEAKER_00]: What's there to be ready for their truth?

[SPEAKER_00]: They're right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think people get hung up sometimes on and it's not me.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm speaking for people, but I feel like some people get hung up on [SPEAKER_02]: the biology of it and they make it this like taboo sex thing and it's not everybody has bodies in this this this one produces this and this one makes that and you need a boat you know it's very simple it's very simple I think [SPEAKER_00]: People are better off when they know their truth, even if it's a truth that's hard.

[SPEAKER_00]: So like, this is like a weird way to describe it, but like my son, I said, it's almost three.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the last few days, this is actually funny, but it's indicative of my parenting.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's been waking up and being like, my penis really big today.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, my son did the same thing when he was three.

[SPEAKER_01]: I still doesn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I'm like, no, you just have an erection.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not like, oh, I'm just like here in the direction that's normal like just go like try to pee and then it'll go away like it's okay and he was like he's like, I want my baby penis and I was like, it's still there.

[SPEAKER_00]: not to be shamed or scared of or confused.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's the same thing with like, we believe in like, just the brutal honesty of it all.

[SPEAKER_00]: So like, you know, I remember and I got really upset.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think I wasn't postpartum, but I felt postpartum.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, the first three months are fucking right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, especially with your first.

[SPEAKER_00]: and people have a lot of stupid questions and my family had a lot of stupid questions and like sitting at our house for a meal when our son was not he was three, four, five months old saying like well what happens when they he asked about his mother and I'm like oh here we go so what was your answer do you remember your answers yeah and I was like he isn't happy mother and then like no but like he [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, they kept saying, no, he doesn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, no, he but like, actually, he doesn't know about logically.

[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't go, no biologically, he doesn't actually, there's no mother.

[SPEAKER_00]: He has an egg donor.

[SPEAKER_00]: His genes are related to another person who happens to be female, but mother is not in his life.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's there's no way even if the woman who donated her egg, [SPEAKER_00]: wanted to be his mom.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's not.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because she didn't raise him.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's not his mother.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's not like, like, if when he's 18, he wants to call her mom and she wants out, have at it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: But like, that's not his, that's not what this is.

[SPEAKER_02]: that's not how we made this baby like he's there is there has never been a mother in the picture there's been an egg donor and there's been a surrogate and neither one of them is a mother.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and they're just and they just like couldn't understand but like and then it was like I was getting defensive I'm not getting defensive like I don't want you to say that in front of him to confuse him or make him feel like he doesn't have something.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's no secret to it like we're gonna tell him no you don't have one And we say it over time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I like actually you asked like what we talk about all the time I'm like hey he'll be like he's recently because he's in daycare says like oh mom I was like oh, do you have a mom he's like no two dads?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, and I'm like do you want a mom?

[SPEAKER_00]: He's like no, I have two dads.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: He loves his life.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's happy like fuck off [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I think that people are always trying to get you to like admit to the biology aspect of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, but nobody, he has a mom because he came from a woman and they want you to like go there and do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But no, we're not because it is not an aspect of this family.

[SPEAKER_00]: We do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make you fit me into a box?

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Make you feel better.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: what's the point?

[SPEAKER_00]: What's the outcome?

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: What are you trying to say?

[SPEAKER_00]: Someone in my family?

[SPEAKER_00]: Also, so my son is my largely related to me and someone in my family will say something I won't say who, like, drives me nuts.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was just to be like, oh, your husband, like, like, you can tell your kid really loves him.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's good.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, hmm, right, that's his dad.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, of course he loves him.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, what?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, well, people I've had people say that to me, too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, well, that make, because I'm biologically connected to my son.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not biologically connected to our daughter.

[SPEAKER_02]: And people have people when I'm like, oh, she's making me mad.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, but he's not making me mad right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's because he's yours.

[SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no, they both are.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're both mine.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're both I raised them.

[SPEAKER_02]: I made them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I made them.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I love that you're so candid and real and open about your story.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that we all should be just because this, this kind of stuff right here, conversations like this right here are what are going to help normalize.

[SPEAKER_00]: our families and our identities out in this cook among a world we live in even you say that it's so funny to me because I don't I exist in my mind and in the world as normal so you can hearing you say like normal as I'm like normal as a lot right right is normal to me like I don't [SPEAKER_02]: Also, all of us, I think all of us do.

[SPEAKER_02]: All of us see ourselves as normal.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just the outside world that tends to put these things on us and say we're the non-normal folks.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[SPEAKER_00]: You said I look at them and I'm like, huh?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm more normal than you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't have the hangups you have.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, let's be real here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Listen, like hyper vigilance is in my DNA.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right, like Israeli Jew, I got all the anxieties like, you know, like, so I'm walking around like, like, this whole time.

[SPEAKER_00]: But like, it's just I know how to navigate it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I, I know when I'm like, oh, we got across the street.

[SPEAKER_00]: We can't even hear.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, don't hold my hand here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, not today.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or like, oh, we're going to Florida.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's be, let's mind our fees and cues there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Take out that shirt.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can't wear that shirt.

[SPEAKER_02]: Don't, don't, don't, you can't pack that shirt.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can't pack those shorts at the same same.

[SPEAKER_00]: Braps shirt that actually says Kant.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, you cannot do that in Florida.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: We went to Florida recently.

[SPEAKER_02]: We were packing for Florida.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we were both of us said to each other like, [SPEAKER_02]: We can't wear any of our clothes, we can't wear any of our t-shirts, not a single one.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually scary because, you know, again, privilege and that I live in the northeast and that I have access and liberal and people around me and open-minded company and everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: When you do go to those other parts of the country and you see those things like our son was born in Georgia and Brunswick I remember them in the hospital most of them were great, but when they came by they're like, oh, breast is best and I was like, maybe nothing's come out of this tea Okay It's not happening And were they cool were they cool about it or because look at me, I wasn't going to let them not be I love you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: You could take your shit and go somewhere else like we're not like I'm literally sitting there like crossing off like Muggers name and writing fun.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and like and then they asked like when we left like the people who do all those stupid forms are like, oh Is there anything that could have made your experience better?

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, well for one, it's just a parent one and parent you because there are people who don't even forget gay straight whatever They're people with grandparents who are adopting them or whatever like [SPEAKER_00]: mother and father is just antiquated and that is not the like nuclear family anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's move on.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're like already creating like, I don't know like doubt or like lesser than for children entering the world on day one.

[SPEAKER_02]: On day one.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it is and it's it's families like ours though that are pushing the needle and and we see like teeny tiny incremental change one hospital at a time based on the people who are going and speaking up and saying what you're talking about right here, right, but it's it's it's small little steps, but it's families like ours that are making these changes which to your point are changes that are good not just for our community, but for all [SPEAKER_00]: everyone, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, and, and, yeah, I mean, our surrogate, she wanted to do it was she's from L.A.

and now she lives in Brunswick, and she said, I want my kids around so many Republicans, and I want them to see that when people need help, we help them, and that now, and people who are different still could get help, and that I want them exposed to gay people because it's normal [SPEAKER_00]: are now they like walk around with rainbow shirts and they feel so much pride in like they're amazing and that's more impactful like she talks about it all the time because she's a nurse are surrogate and she wears like rainbow pins and stuff and the ER and people are like are you a lesbian?

[SPEAKER_00]: She's like nope but my baby daddy's are.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like what?

[SPEAKER_00]: I love her.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, she's so funny when she was pregnant with our sons.

[SPEAKER_00]: She would like people back.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, like you're you're so pregnant like are you excited?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like tall not keeping it at like eight months in like Georgia.

[SPEAKER_00]: What?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm not keeping this warm.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're like, oh, at least you didn't abort it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Few.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm not, it's, it's not mine.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or like they would get her husband in like someone would say something to him and she would be like, oh, it's not his.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like we'd have fun with it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I like her.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's spicy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's why I picked her.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's why you picked her.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's so funny.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had, so there was like one of off track one more time, but it's kind of on track.

[SPEAKER_02]: But there was one of my son's classmates mom was pregnant.

[SPEAKER_02]: I guess I saw that her belly was growing and then I went to sleep one night and had a dream that she told me that no, no, no.

[SPEAKER_02]: She, this isn't hers.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's a surrogate for someone.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then I couldn't remember if it was real or wasn't.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the whole pregnancy, I wasn't sure if she was keeping the baby or if she was actually a surrogate because I dreamt she was and I thought it was real.

[SPEAKER_02]: Probably because I had two men glasses a while in the night before when I went to sleep.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I wasn't sure what was reality.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the point where finally the baby comes and they're they're keeping the baby.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's what that like solidified it from.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, no, okay, that was just a dream.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I was afraid to ask because I didn't want to like, upset or like, We're okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is that yours?

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, like, is that your, okay, like, that would have been weird.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I couldn't say anything.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, so I finally realized, oh, they're keeping it.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's, that's their baby.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then, because I'm gay and I talk to so many queer families and stuff, I was like, let's low key disappointed in them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you're like, you're not, you're not cool anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's so like, yo, like you're keeping me like that too, yo.

[SPEAKER_02]: I thought you were like being really cool and like, how's a baby for a gay couple?

[SPEAKER_02]: But I guess you weren't.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually funny because I have such a fear also.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is when we start putting our kid in daycare, that like, [SPEAKER_00]: People would treat us differently.

[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe it's because we're like an Arlington Cambridge area that it's fine.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've never felt weird about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's been like at his previous school, like one teacher where people are like, oh, she's like super religious, just like so you know, like someone else who's in our community who's the last [SPEAKER_00]: Like, she scares me a little bit, so just like, I know I was like, oh, that's so interesting because she's been nothing but loving to our kid and then I was like, oh, and I've seen this because I was like, oh, you know, you as a queer person are putting like prejudices on someone else for their religious beliefs, like we're also sometimes we're smart and she's been great with our kid and nothing ever happened and she was lovely with them, just because she was super religious.

[SPEAKER_00]: and have her beliefs that might have been different from what she treated us like people and that's all we ask or so like let's now go and like treat other people who have beliefs we don't have not as people to.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah it was like interesting well yes, but it was an interview because like it's rare that that happens.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and then it's eye opening and it goes, it does go both ways and also at the same time sometimes it's hard.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am definitely guilty of like putting my own biases on people just based, you know, because So survival, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's survival.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's fear.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's fear.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's, there's so many reasons and it's just the vibe.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but it's important sometimes to like, [SPEAKER_02]: check it, clock it, clock it as a kid, not clock it, I don't even know if clock it is I'm using it right, I don't know, but they do the thing, clock it, check itself, right, now it's a good, it's a good point, yeah, we'll be right back.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know adulting meant like stressing over the menu every day.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's just you have some time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's basically present with my kid at dinner and watch him say his first word or talk about school or talk about work and like be there or be on the floor with him playing then cooking, cleaning and dealing with like all of that shit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I get it.

[SPEAKER_00]: The thing is is when you look at some of the stuff people do you order like pizza ones on like Uber eats and it's like $78.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, like for instance, last for the last night, I had taken a salmon out of the fridge to defrost for to make for dinner and then [SPEAKER_02]: As the day goes with two kids who are in activities and like I got home and I was exhausted and my wife was exhausted from her day at work and we looked at each other and I was like I don't want to cook that Sam and she was like I don't want you to cook that Sam and so we went down to the corner to just get slices of pizza thank God we live in New York City and got slices of pizza because we weren't going to deliver I get something delivered because that's a hundred dollars.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I know.

[SPEAKER_00]: You think it's not like that I'm like, Cambridge mask.

[SPEAKER_00]: Come on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like literally you order two pizza pies.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's $73.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like 100%.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember when pizza was like seven for a pie.

[SPEAKER_00]: I grew up in Brooklyn.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like what?

[SPEAKER_02]: Oprah says that all the time that on her podcast, you go, what do you need?

[SPEAKER_02]: The most important thing is time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to do my upper voice.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was the term upper voice.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was terrible, you're right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I can't get the whole deep sound.

[SPEAKER_00]: Stop it, I can't get the whole deep sound.

[SPEAKER_00]: Stop it, I can't get the whole deep sound.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, maybe he's above 50, you're camped or he's in school.

[SPEAKER_00]: They would be very disappointed.

[SPEAKER_02]: In personations would never my strong suit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, clearly.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I'm going to do is roast you, that's something I'm going to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love this.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is so fun.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not the food or the meal to live.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's the like, what the connection, the like, and creating those memories.

[SPEAKER_00]: It just, it hits on.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we're recording this on like Rochashana right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that all, it's all like a full circle thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like that is what food does.

[SPEAKER_02]: and community.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I keep on trying to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're actually bringing together community and people and tradition and culture and share this food because it's such a divisive world we live in right now and it's not about saying Jews are good or Jews are bad.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's about saying culture and tradition matters and we need to understand different perspectives and being a room and talk and I hate each other online and scream and fight and talk into the void.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it really is, but I love this idea of just community and food and focusing on the love and the things we have in common, not the things we don't.

[SPEAKER_02]: The things we have in common.

[SPEAKER_00]: But put your fucking phone down and eat a meal and talk to someone, even if you disagree and learn something.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: What happened to that?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: What happened to that?

[SPEAKER_02]: I know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know.

[SPEAKER_02]: We got a lot of healing to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this has been so fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so glad I got to know you a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is awesome.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me.

[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: A special thank you once again to California cryo bank for being a sponsor of this episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: Use code queerfam25 for a free level 2 subscription to their donor catalog.

[SPEAKER_02]: And tune in next week for another amazing episode of queer family goodness.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whew, well folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you did enjoy it, feel free to listen to another or watch another.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have so many episodes for your listening or viewing pleasure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Just go pick one and enjoy.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're really good.

[SPEAKER_02]: And also, if you really do like this show, please, I know I say it all the time, but please do consider supporting the show on Patreon.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're just gonna go to patreon.com, slash the queer family podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're gonna pick a tear, you're gonna join, and you're gonna get that bonus content.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you're also gonna get my love and adoration for the rest of my life.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love you all, thanks for tuning in, keep on tuning in, and I'll see you next time.