[SPEAKER_01]: This episode is proudly brought to you by our friends at California CryoBank.

[SPEAKER_01]: Use Code QueerFam25 for a free level 2 subscription to their donor catalog and start your family building journey today.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's also brought to you by B.

[SPEAKER_01]: Parents surrogacy, and if you mention the queer family podcast when you reach out to them, you're going to receive $2,000 off any service you book.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's get into it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Those thoughts and the genetic component, which is a big component for our families.

[SPEAKER_08]: We have a very open discussion about all these things and for us it never mattered, who's going to be biological problem?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I have to interrupt you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Have you been having a hard time hearing me?

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, it was okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: My microphone was all the way over there, I just realized.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, my editor's going to kill me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Does it sound a lot better now?

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it sounds a little better, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hope I didn't just screw up this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hope I didn't screw this out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe I didn't bring my mic over to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_05]: But we heard you're fine.

[SPEAKER_05]: So yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: So.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully my editor Jerson can make magic because that's that is I cannot believe I just did that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry to interrupt.

[SPEAKER_01]: What the heck?

[SPEAKER_01]: Mombrain.

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome y'all to the queer family podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: The show all about family, but with gay.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your gay host Jamie and this is the show that highlights celebrates uplifts and normalizes LGBTQIA plus families in all of our fabulous identities and in all of the fabulous ways we make our families and this here episode is really going to dive deep into surrogacy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I got to sit down with a niche and be gal to dad to recently had their baby boy through surrogacy at an agency.

[SPEAKER_01]: and let me tell you something.

[SPEAKER_01]: There are people who go about this family building journey in very meticulous ways and very organized ways and very thoughtful ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're all thoughtful.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's be real.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there are some who are more meticulous than others and these two are them.

[SPEAKER_01]: They thought through every single step, they made checklist, like, if you're looking into surrogacy as your path to parenthood, this is kind of the master class for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is your checklist.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is your glossary.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is your emotional support network, because they did the work for us, so you don't have to.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really great episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: And another beautiful thing about it is, and they actually use B-parent surrogacy, which is the sponsor of this year episode, which makes it even more special.

[SPEAKER_01]: We really get into the intricacies of the surrogacy process when you use an agency in this episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a special one and I really liked it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think you're all going to enjoy it, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: On another note, my son got a Rubik's Cube for his birthday.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then we went over to a friend's house recently who has a son who's like one of those Rubik's cube genius people who like who can solve it in like two minutes and he knows like the algorithm and stuff and so my son was like I want to do that I want to oh my god, I want to figure it out so one night me and him sat down and we start watching some videos about how you solve the Rubik's cube and.

[SPEAKER_01]: he lost interest pretty promptly, but you know who didn't you know who didn't lose interest.

[SPEAKER_01]: This girl right here, that's who I am officially obsessed with solving the Rubik's cube at the ripe old age of 47 soon to be 48.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you heard me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be a Rubik's cube genius.

[SPEAKER_01]: Much like I have the dream of being a roller skating dancer, but I can't even roller skate.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's never too late to dream folks.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's never too late to dream.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm obsessed with the Rubik's Cube.

[SPEAKER_01]: At this point, like my thoughts, they, like if somebody has a different, if somebody like changes the subject, I think of it like a Rubik's Cube.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like my brain is turning into a Rubik's Cube.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's how obsessed I am.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, if there are any Rubik's Cube affiction models who want to give me some pointers, reach on out because I'm officially obsessed.

[SPEAKER_01]: The life of a mom, it's really exciting stuff over here in the kilowatt house, as you can see.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, children, but all right, let's get into a niche and Miguel's story.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so good.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so lovely.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I need to go get back to my Rubik's Cube.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even kidding.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Lord.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Helen, give me my Rubik's Cube, Helen and Bula.

[SPEAKER_01]: Look at them trying to take note.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's my, nobody's allowed to touch it now either.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not even Orion and it's his Rubik's Cube because I'm in a process.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Helen, Bula, put the Rubik's Cube down and let's roll that tape.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, they're not real.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have assistance, but I got a big imagination, that's for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's roll it tape.

[SPEAKER_01]: Clare from my podcast love is love.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I'm Nation McGee.

[SPEAKER_07]: Hello, hi.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, it's so nice to be here chatting with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're coming in all the way from where?

[SPEAKER_07]: from Berlin, Germany.

[SPEAKER_01]: Our land, Germany, wow, that's exciting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love it work.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking across the pond.

[SPEAKER_01]: It makes me happy.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I do know you have a child sleeping somewhere.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so at some point, we're going to hear, possibly a baby crying, and we're going to have to tend to the child, which happens a lot on this show.

[SPEAKER_07]: Correct.

[SPEAKER_07]: Lil' that extender is turning four months on Sunday.

[SPEAKER_07]: It's a living now, but his feeding time should be very soon.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he's a baby baby.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: First, let's get into your elevator picture.

[SPEAKER_01]: 30 second elevator pitch to tell us at home who you are and why you're here talking to the queer fam squad on your mark.

[SPEAKER_01]: Get set.

[SPEAKER_01]: Go.

[SPEAKER_08]: We are the cold family.

[SPEAKER_08]: and we live in Berlin.

[SPEAKER_08]: We are here participating in this podcast because we believe that family is a right for everybody.

[SPEAKER_08]: You're respect to of your gender identity, your respect to of where you're coming from, who your partner is, [SPEAKER_08]: We truly, truly believe that gay people can have families too, and we want to share our story.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we have a beautiful son who is four months old, as we said before, and we are very excited for this journey for us.

[SPEAKER_08]: And to share this with everybody along the way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so excited.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have a baby baby.

[SPEAKER_01]: Make a baby baby.

[SPEAKER_01]: You got a real little one.

[SPEAKER_01]: So exciting for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's take it back to the how the two of you met and got together.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's take it back to the beginning of you.

[SPEAKER_08]: We met four years ago at a bar.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she did.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_08]: At a bar in Berlin, I wouldn't call it love as per side too.

[SPEAKER_08]: It was more like a journey.

[SPEAKER_08]: And I was in a very weird place in life.

[SPEAKER_08]: I was coming out of a relationship where I felt very like choked.

[SPEAKER_08]: You know, like I didn't have room to breathe, but I just wanted to not party live life.

[SPEAKER_08]: as you do in Berlin, and I met Miguel in a place where I was not ready to meet anybody and from there it was just a roller coaster, like it was just uphill, you know, not the downhill part, but uphill part.

[SPEAKER_08]: where I was open to being surprised.

[SPEAKER_08]: I was open to new experiences.

[SPEAKER_08]: I was, I think the biggest thing what this relationship had taught me is I could love somebody and I should be open to somebody loving me.

[SPEAKER_08]: That was life changing.

[SPEAKER_08]: I didn't ever believe in his view.

[SPEAKER_08]: You meet one person falling in love for the rest of your life and you're just happy with this one person.

[SPEAKER_08]: You're just saying, you know.

[SPEAKER_08]: But I think with Miguel, I've been evolving and if he goes through our journey, it's been nothing but amazing.

[SPEAKER_08]: I'm not the same person for years ago.

[SPEAKER_08]: I've conquered some addictions.

[SPEAKER_08]: I've conquered some person.

[SPEAKER_08]: I've developed my personality quite a lot and all of this with [SPEAKER_08]: We get not asking me a single thing to change.

[SPEAKER_08]: You know, I was all with him and he gave me the space.

[SPEAKER_08]: And we're very happy.

[SPEAKER_08]: This is my story.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I just want to write to that that I think at that point in my life, I was ready to build a family.

[SPEAKER_07]: I was looking for a person that is [SPEAKER_07]: that I can be with for the rest of my life, that I can live my dream of building a strong family and being this gay family that we wanted to be.

[SPEAKER_07]: And yeah, it took me a lot of work to convince him that I was the right one.

[SPEAKER_07]: I'm trying to do things, but I think also very early on and when we were getting to know each other, it was very clear that one of the most important things to me was to build a family and that I wanted I need to be on the same page and that he would go on this journey with me together.

[SPEAKER_01]: Miguel, you knew, and each took some convincing time, sound like, despite the fact that you were gay, Miguel, it sounds like you always knew that you would be a parent.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_06]: I always dreamt of it.

[SPEAKER_06]: I love kids and I always dreamt of having my own family.

[SPEAKER_06]: You also have a big family.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you're all kind of a big family.

[SPEAKER_01]: Big family.

[SPEAKER_01]: And how about you, Anish?

[SPEAKER_01]: What were your thoughts on family?

[SPEAKER_08]: Mine's a bit complicated because I come from India.

[SPEAKER_08]: And India family is big.

[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_08]: But I was not the family type.

[SPEAKER_08]: Like I was never not the family type.

[SPEAKER_08]: But also moving to Berlin, a lost track of this family lifestyle.

[SPEAKER_08]: You know, like in Berlin, it's too open, you party a lot to you.

[SPEAKER_08]: you're just out and about and you're just constantly dating and not committing.

[SPEAKER_08]: I'm not speaking about it, but I'm like it was just the face in which I wasn't non-committal being open to different experiences.

[SPEAKER_08]: Miguel brought this idea back.

[SPEAKER_08]: I would say the first date that we went after the bar incident, like the first time incident.

[SPEAKER_08]: The first time that we actually went, [SPEAKER_08]: We weren't on a walk.

[SPEAKER_08]: There was this checklist of things that we were talking about.

[SPEAKER_08]: Hey, do you want to, what do you think about family?

[SPEAKER_08]: Hey, what do you think about raising a child?

[SPEAKER_08]: Hey, what do you think about marriage?

[SPEAKER_08]: What do you think about monogamy?

[SPEAKER_08]: What do you think about all these things that we talked that were very important to us?

[SPEAKER_08]: Made me realize two things.

[SPEAKER_08]: One is there is something with this person that I can, that I can invest time in.

[SPEAKER_08]: Let's come back to what we always wanted, what I always wanted, like to be a part of a family.

[SPEAKER_08]: And, and yeah, and then now we do have a family.

[SPEAKER_01]: We do.

[SPEAKER_01]: You do.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the so the conversation around family started really early, which it usually does, especially for us queer folks, because we have so many decisions that we have to make, and we have to make sure that we're on the same page.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, even if we both like, with non-clear people, I like to call, I say non-clear.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like to other them and that other S, but with non-clear people, you know, the conversation can end that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So do you want kids one day?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Good.

[SPEAKER_01]: because you just assume you're going to baby dance the old fashion way and get to kiddos.

[SPEAKER_01]: But with us, it's asked to go beyond that.

[SPEAKER_01]: This conversation has to go beyond.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want kids one day?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, how do you want to do it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, how do you think we should like, what does due genetics matter to you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like so many decisions need to be made.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's why I think we clear folks go a lot deeper into that conversation from the get go.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm cover a lot of stuff.

[SPEAKER_07]: how much you would think.

[SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_07]: I think that's many more things to be on the same page.

[SPEAKER_01]: Many.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know you're going to be, you're going to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: What was the conversation around surrounding how you're going to do it?

[SPEAKER_07]: I had already been doing research for a long time and I think he's already been saving money too.

[SPEAKER_07]: I don't have to save money for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because you know it's going to cost it pretty penny.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately.

[SPEAKER_07]: I was just waiting for the right person.

[SPEAKER_07]: And within that research, I also contemplated adoption.

[SPEAKER_07]: It's just the process is so long, so complicated.

[SPEAKER_07]: So while I think we didn't think no genetics matters so much, we just thought with our age and with our...

[SPEAKER_07]: resources, let's say, the easiest way in the fastest way would be through a star, you see.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_08]: And I think to that, I was under the opinion are believed that I want to adopt.

[SPEAKER_08]: but like being with Miguel, I think my thinking also evolved a bit into leading into the direction of genetics.

[SPEAKER_08]: Do matter for us, not to a degree that I wanted to be or, but to a degree that I think it's nice to have one of us, like in our race, a biological threat.

[SPEAKER_08]: So it was a beautiful journey, I would say.

[SPEAKER_08]: It was not from the get call.

[SPEAKER_08]: Like, okay, you know, adoption was a legacy now, but it was a constant discussion of our picture.

[SPEAKER_08]: Does this what does it mean to us?

[SPEAKER_08]: What does it mean to you, what does it mean to us?

[SPEAKER_08]: And how does it relate to three as a whole?

[SPEAKER_01]: We're so intentional when it comes to this, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: There's, cause, so in your decisions.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, so you wait through your options and decide it on surrogacy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then had Miguel had you already like researched where you would do it, like were you already that far into your research?

[SPEAKER_07]: I was not that far and I think because also it changes a lot, like laws change fast, country options in countries change very fast so that I had done research years ago, but that wasn't up to date anymore.

[SPEAKER_07]: So then when we decided that we wanted to start the journey, we started the research again from scratch and wait our options, check our finances, [SPEAKER_07]: made some decisions that, yeah, would guide us to where we are now.

[SPEAKER_07]: Also, I think making sure that in every step of the way that we were doing the right thing, we would travel, we would go talk to the agencies, we would have, and there was even no genetic tests.

[SPEAKER_07]: In genetic tests that we did just to make sure what was possible was not.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, so a lot, a lot, a lot of research went into it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you did the genetic testing on your own, or was that like advised through like a service [SPEAKER_08]: we did ourselves based on our research that this is this there's a test called carrier type testing where your chromosomes and the egg donors chromosomes are matched and they can pre see like you know what conditions the integrations that you make area doesn't necessarily have to like you know it doesn't necessarily mean anything but it's just better to [SPEAKER_01]: Because when we have the choice, we have the choice to choose the donor, then we want to make sure that we're going to make the right match for us.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if we can, let's make sure that they're going to, I don't know what the word I'm looking for is genetically match or whatever.

[SPEAKER_08]: I'm going to take a step back for a second.

[SPEAKER_08]: I want to say something that I think it's very important for this journey as well.

[SPEAKER_08]: We do have [SPEAKER_08]: goal sitting every year.

[SPEAKER_08]: So every year we set goals to achieve.

[SPEAKER_08]: So this I bring part of my management like from my work.

[SPEAKER_08]: So two years ago we set a goal saying we want to make progress in surrogacy research but then we already found be parent and found the agency that we want to work with and we already went ahead.

[SPEAKER_08]: So as per our plan we were supposed to have Alexander this year.

[SPEAKER_08]: Okay, and we then we like, you know, we started the process, I think, almost one year before what we planned.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, all right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're planning to work out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it worked out like too well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Good for you.

[SPEAKER_08]: These are all the different things that we checklist of things that we wanted to do before we started the process and the character of testing was one of it.

[SPEAKER_08]: So we wanted to make sure that we have, that we make the right decisions and we always thought about the whole process as risk assessment.

[SPEAKER_08]: Like what is the risk that we are willing to take at this point?

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and for folks who are listening, anybody can do it?

[SPEAKER_08]: Right?

[SPEAKER_08]: It's always about what is the level of risk that you want to be exposed to and how we want to mitigate when things go, not according to your plan.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like give me some examples of like goals you said and like why and [SPEAKER_07]: I think, for example, because we had different countries as options to do surrogacy in Europe, one was, okay, let's go and visit the agencies, talk to different agencies.

[SPEAKER_07]: First of all, to see if everything is true.

[SPEAKER_07]: Second, let's see what they have to tell us, like how they work, what are their facilities, who are they working with, and what clinics are they working with, what hospitals are they working with.

[SPEAKER_08]: and the human connection.

[SPEAKER_08]: We believe in, but yeah, like it's a big deal and all, but you're bringing a person to this world.

[SPEAKER_08]: And we want to make that choice, inform choice with the right people around us.

[SPEAKER_08]: And for us, to enable that, we needed that trust element.

[SPEAKER_08]: That was a huge deciding factor when it came to, like, which agency we chose or how to direction that we wanted to come.

[SPEAKER_07]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_07]: I think we were, or at least before we arrived, I for me, I was thinking like the facilities.

[SPEAKER_07]: And we [SPEAKER_07]: What are they working with?

[SPEAKER_07]: And then I think we realized that trust was the most important most important.

[SPEAKER_07]: If you're working with an agency, you need to trust them because basically you cannot be there all the time, you don't have the resources, you don't speak the language, so it was very important for us, or a very big realization, it was that we need to find some of the other people to really trust.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and there's so many, I mean there are so many things, [SPEAKER_01]: that you really rely on this agency for, especially in an agency, which it sounds like would be parent, they cover everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: Correct.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, and so you really need to trust the agency that's handling all of these tiny decisions and things and appointments and all the stuff.

[SPEAKER_07]: Everything.

[SPEAKER_07]: I think we wouldn't have done it with, it would have been impossible without an agency for us.

[SPEAKER_01]: it's a lot of pieces to put together right so it's it's nice to have an agency that is like you're a girl and who guides you through it so it sounds like you researched a couple though like more than just like how many did you how many did you check out quite a lot yeah we visited for with online we checked out a lot and then we visited for agencies and where were they like we visited which where did you visit [SPEAKER_07]: like in Europe.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like in because you're in Berlin, so wherever you travel into to like visit the agencies, I just want to I want to get an idea of how much like this is even before you start the journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is why I always think we are so intentional.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is so much thought and work put into even the journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so wherever you traveling to.

[SPEAKER_08]: We were traveling to Cyprus.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_08]: So we did think about Mexico as well.

[SPEAKER_08]: It came down to like the distance aspect.

[SPEAKER_08]: The distance was very important for us.

[SPEAKER_08]: We wanted to be able to go quickly as possible and we live in Europe.

[SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[SPEAKER_08]: So within Europe we can travel.

[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_07]: Ukraine was another option but due to the [SPEAKER_07]: or at the moment it's not an option, yeah.

[SPEAKER_07]: So then we decide.

[SPEAKER_07]: Colombia, Mexico, we're also on the list.

[SPEAKER_07]: And it was a fight.

[SPEAKER_07]: That was the easiest and closest, basically, for us.

[SPEAKER_07]: But for example, for the genetic testing, we went to Poland because we just could take a train from Berlin and go there and it was much cheaper than doing it in Berlin.

[SPEAKER_07]: So yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so, you guys are so lucky in Europe.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have everything, you have things so close.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everything here is very far away.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_08]: And you as well will an option for us, because it's one eight to two far.

[SPEAKER_08]: And it was very expensive.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_08]: And we could just never fly as quickly as we can with in Europe.

[SPEAKER_01]: What are the laws surrounding service in Berlin?

[SPEAKER_08]: In Germany, it's forbidden.

[SPEAKER_08]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_08]: You cannot provide services.

[SPEAKER_08]: The people are not penalized, but the doctor's offices are penalized.

[SPEAKER_08]: So no doctor's office provide these services around photography.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to travel.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have to travel.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it sounds to me like you settled on the agency you chose, which was be parent, mainly because of that connection and also proximity.

[SPEAKER_07]: I mean, they ticked all the boxes from the, let's say, the admin stuff and the clinics that were working with, but in the end, the decision was just because we trusted the team.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_07]: They gave us the trust and they gave us the feeling that they would support us to other journey and make it as easy and smooth for us as possible.

[SPEAKER_07]: Well, I think always being realistic, I think that was very important also that they always [SPEAKER_07]: things can go wrong at any point, they're very, very realistic.

[SPEAKER_08]: Some of the agencies that we met were like very focused on, oh, you know, give us a sperm now, you know, deposited now, you know, they didn't even say hello to us yet, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they were like getting right to the nitty-gritty and [SPEAKER_08]: coming from a place where we want to build that trust, that was not an option for us, right?

[SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[SPEAKER_08]: And two, we saw some agencies where the contracts were two pages, like, front and back, you know, so that was not very trustworthy also.

[SPEAKER_08]: be parent was very thorough.

[SPEAKER_08]: The contracts were very exhaustive.

[SPEAKER_08]: They walked us through all the different elements of the process, the exit process.

[SPEAKER_08]: It only came down to the trust element.

[SPEAKER_08]: Like we could look at this person and rely on them and make sure that they have our backs.

[SPEAKER_08]: Because it's not an easy process and it's very, very scary.

[SPEAKER_08]: And having us talk about [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, having us in a very real sense of, okay, this could go wrong.

[SPEAKER_08]: There's other risks, you know, just be aware that this could go wrong.

[SPEAKER_08]: It may not think went wrong.

[SPEAKER_08]: Our process was one of the smoothest, smoothest, smoothest models you could call lucky, right?

[SPEAKER_08]: So, so nothing went wrong, but at least having that awareness helped us mentally prepare for anything that could go wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: To be realistic.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I remember when we were first [SPEAKER_01]: deciding like which sperm bank to choose me in my way.

[SPEAKER_01]: We did, we went and visited one in the city here.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was similar to what you were just describing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like we walked in, we really just wanted to get to, we didn't know anything about the process.

[SPEAKER_01]: We just wanted to see how does it work here.

[SPEAKER_01]: This was like a private sperm bank.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we walked in and they sat us down and they gave us the list.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they were like, choose a donor.

[SPEAKER_01]: We were like, we didn't say, we didn't even say what to do this.

[SPEAKER_01]: We just were trying it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, this feels very so transactional.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, stressful.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_08]: It felt very stressful to me.

[SPEAKER_08]: It's like you don't even know my name and you expect to like, you know, like side of contract with your bring up life to this world.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, pressure.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_08]: It's not very easy.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I actually felt pressured to like pick some sperm.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just can't believe you.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: But thank God, we didn't, we didn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like, you need to get the right vibe.

[SPEAKER_01]: I agree 100%.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for this love.

[SPEAKER_01]: And on that beautiful note, folks, I just want to say this little podcast that could have covered everything from sperm donation to adoption, to fertility treatments, to surrogacy.

[SPEAKER_01]: We run the gamut, all the queer family building journey gamuts.

[SPEAKER_01]: And today, we are really, really shining a light as you can see on surrogacy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And be parent surrogacy is helping our community take that next step toward parenthood, just like they did for a niche and [SPEAKER_01]: And what really really struck me in their story, which you just heard, was that sense of personal connection and trust.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the thing about be parent.

[SPEAKER_01]: They believe everyone deserves a family rightly so.

[SPEAKER_01]: And their entire process is built around inclusivity and compassion, which is key.

[SPEAKER_01]: And here's also what I love.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everything they do is under one roof, so embryo creation, medical care, legal guidance, emotional support, no juggling, a million clinics and lawyers all over the place.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's seamless.

[SPEAKER_01]: They make it seamless.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there are no wait lists.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can begin your journey when you are ready.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not when a system decides it's convenient when you're ready.

[SPEAKER_01]: Plus, their surrogates and donors go through a triple screening process and parents receive personalized step-by-step guidance from a multi-lingual team that actually understands the full spectrum of [SPEAKER_01]: It's community built on trust, empathy, and the belief that love makes a family.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can I get a name in?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So learn more or start your journey at bparentservicity.com.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and if you mentioned this little podcast, the queer family podcast, when you book a consultation, you're going to get $2,000 off any service you book.

[SPEAKER_01]: So go to bparentservicity.com and start building that family now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Love is love.

[SPEAKER_01]: So then you can be signed with B-parent or however that works and then how it go from there and how did you make the, did you like pull both of your sperm and did you do the mixing of sperm and see what happens or like and you don't have to answer anything if you don't want to answer anything and if you don't want people to know who's got the genetics or whatever anything you feel comfortable telling us.

[SPEAKER_08]: We signed the contract so as I said it was very exhaustive I think there was a bit of silence.

[SPEAKER_08]: What I want to realize during this process is that it's not like like uphill and it's like [SPEAKER_08]: It's like, it's like the same way, right?

[SPEAKER_08]: So you go up and then it's just quiet for a very long time.

[SPEAKER_08]: So these are like milestones that I would say.

[SPEAKER_08]: So signing was a milestone, was a big milestone for us.

[SPEAKER_08]: And then giving this poem was a big milestone.

[SPEAKER_08]: And then the egg donor was a milestone.

[SPEAKER_08]: So anybody who was wanting to do this process, I would say this.

[SPEAKER_08]: It's not going to be like up here every day, right?

[SPEAKER_08]: So it's mostly quiet, but that quiet face is the most difficult face.

[SPEAKER_08]: And I don't know what's going on.

[SPEAKER_08]: And you're waiting, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like buying a car.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you get the keys and then you get to take the car.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it's not like that.

[SPEAKER_08]: It's not that.

[SPEAKER_08]: I'm coming to the genetic aspect.

[SPEAKER_08]: That's the only thing that we decided not to share.

[SPEAKER_08]: due to the personal reasons, but other than that, the agency helps us with every step of the way, right?

[SPEAKER_08]: So after we sign, then we, then we decide on the act owner, right?

[SPEAKER_08]: So I think the signing and the act owner decision happens at the same time.

[SPEAKER_08]: So there's just want to make sure that we have the right act owner in place when we sign.

[SPEAKER_08]: So that, like, you know, we can continue.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so like you looked at the cat catalog for lack of a better word.

[SPEAKER_01]: You looked at the donor catalog before you signed just to make sure that that as someone you would want as your donor is actually there.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's smart.

[SPEAKER_08]: and the agency suggested that we do that as well.

[SPEAKER_08]: That's the trustability aspect that I talked to you about as well.

[SPEAKER_08]: So we know that they have a back, right?

[SPEAKER_08]: They don't want us to get into an agreement and then not have the right donors, but rather have both and then have the signature done.

[SPEAKER_01]: Were you able to meet with the egg donor talk to the egg donor?

[SPEAKER_01]: I know certain it's different with different agencies and different.

[SPEAKER_08]: Where we did it's anonymous explanation, so we're not technically supposed to like meet the person, but we do have the catalog.

[SPEAKER_08]: That agency helped us.

[SPEAKER_06]: But the egg donor's are anonymous there.

[SPEAKER_01]: be parent like across the board.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're all anonymous.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's me and my sperm bank.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's an anonymous until 18, the kids can choose to try to contact him when they turn 18.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if I can open donor in that respect, but is it is there anything like that with your donor or is it completely?

[SPEAKER_06]: Completing anonymous, not in our case.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what were you [SPEAKER_01]: I call this search, the search for the superhuman because because we can make the choices, some of us can look like me.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, agreed.

[SPEAKER_08]: I think we were realistic still.

[SPEAKER_08]: So as you see, I'm brown and it's white.

[SPEAKER_08]: So we wanted someone in the middle.

[SPEAKER_08]: So we went with the Brazilian egg donor.

[SPEAKER_08]: Oh, so we wanted, as I said before, we don't want to share who the father is.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it has to look like both of you.

[SPEAKER_08]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, makes perfect sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of us do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I just recently talked to another couple who had a Brazilian egg donor.

[SPEAKER_01]: How funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, like three, three couples have a Brazilian egg donor, which is just interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: A Brazilian's are beautiful.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, come on down.

[SPEAKER_01]: One more question regarding the egg donor.

[SPEAKER_01]: So these egg donors are like basically [SPEAKER_01]: in their catalog.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just wondering how it works like, do they already have eggs on ice from these donors?

[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it like, well, they picked you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Are you willing to donate?

[SPEAKER_08]: It's fresh donation.

[SPEAKER_08]: First of all, once we decide who they are donors, then they, they didn't see you like collects the eggs freshly.

[SPEAKER_07]: The agency suggested that because they said that in order to do IVF, you have fresh eggs the quality.

[SPEAKER_07]: This is higher, the chances of them being fertilized are higher.

[SPEAKER_07]: And that again is one of those points where we had silence for a long time because we had to wait for the donor to be available for a cycle to start, then she had to take the medication.

[SPEAKER_07]: And then one day we get a message and say, hey, we are just retrieved eggs today, everything [SPEAKER_07]: And you're then we had, I would say, I think it was six weeks of quietness where you're just waiting and waiting and hoping that everything goes well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Did you get a lot of eggs?

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we got 23, 23, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a lot of eggs.

[SPEAKER_01]: Good job.

[SPEAKER_01]: Good job.

[SPEAKER_08]: That's awesome.

[SPEAKER_08]: There's a cup to the, thanks to the eggs and eggs.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, thanks to the egg donor.

[SPEAKER_01]: So had you already made your deposit, deposit, or then you had to go, like give your sperm.

[SPEAKER_07]: Prior to that, we had already gone to give this sperm.

[SPEAKER_07]: This is a sperm can be frozen, though they had already our frozen sperm there, ready for doing the IVF as soon as they had a collection.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so they got, and then they got, they got to work right away.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know you don't want to share the genetics and who's biological connected, which I completely respect and completely actually very much so understand.

[SPEAKER_01]: But could you share a little bit about your conversation [SPEAKER_01]: who would be a lot a lot of times in clear in clear family building we have to have the conversation about like how do you feel about if you weren't genetically type like we go deep into those conversations.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm wondering if you too had anything that you wanted to share regarding those thoughts and the genetic component which is a big component for our families.

[SPEAKER_08]: We have a very open discussion about all these things and for us it never mattered who's going to be biological problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I have to interrupt you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Have you been having a hard time hearing me?

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, it was okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: My microphone was all the way over there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just realized.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, my editor's going to kill me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Does it sound a lot better now?

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it sounds a lot better, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, I hope I didn't just screw up this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hope I didn't screw this out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can't believe I didn't bring my mic over to me.

[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_05]: But we heard you're flying, so yeah, yeah, so...

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, hopefully my editor, Jerson, can make magic because that's, that is, I cannot believe I just did that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, sorry to interrupt.

[SPEAKER_01]: What the heck, mom brain?

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, carry on, you are in the middle of a sentence.

[SPEAKER_08]: So it didn't really matter who the biological father is.

[SPEAKER_08]: For us, what matters was one of us is violence in the father.

[SPEAKER_08]: So we've had both of us have had discussions about, hey, this is important for us, you know, and we said it is important, but it doesn't matter who.

[SPEAKER_08]: It was easy.

[SPEAKER_08]: It was really, really easy.

[SPEAKER_08]: That's us.

[SPEAKER_07]: That's us.

[SPEAKER_07]: Because we did all of those tests as well.

[SPEAKER_07]: It was like, okay, one of us cannot be the genetic father.

[SPEAKER_07]: It's going to be the other one.

[SPEAKER_07]: It's going to be fine.

[SPEAKER_07]: Right.

[SPEAKER_07]: Right.

[SPEAKER_07]: That's also, I think, all doing all these tests also gave us the confidence.

[SPEAKER_07]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_07]: Whoever is it, it's going to be fine.

[SPEAKER_07]: And what I wanted to add to that was, I think something that happened to me very early on is that I think the first weeks I was seeing our baby, [SPEAKER_07]: He's beautiful, he's great, but I'm feeling like I don't have this connection, you know?

[SPEAKER_07]: And I was actually scared to say it.

[SPEAKER_07]: But then, I told, I'm feeling this.

[SPEAKER_07]: And then you said, wow, I feel this way.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's so normal.

[SPEAKER_01]: So normal, but we don't talk about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it happens to many new parents.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have a whole new human.

[SPEAKER_09]: Like, [SPEAKER_01]: Right, we gotta get to know each other now.

[SPEAKER_01]: And especially when it's your first kid, you don't know what the emotions are gonna be like.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you hear these fairy tales that it's this huge, like, wave of paternal or maternal, like, everything takes over and you love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And some people, yes, they do have that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have that.

[SPEAKER_09]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I was scared because my, our first one, I wasn't genetically tied to.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I had shame surround again.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was afraid to voice it because I was like, oh my God, it's probably because I didn't give birth to her, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then I gave birth to our second, our son, and I felt the same exact way, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So it had nothing to do with that genetic eyeology.

[SPEAKER_07]: That was the point that I wanted to make it that it's not so much the genetic ties.

[SPEAKER_07]: I think this is loving and this relationship just comes with time because I was very scared.

[SPEAKER_08]: I was very scared.

[SPEAKER_08]: I would look at this kid.

[SPEAKER_08]: I love him.

[SPEAKER_08]: But I don't feel that birds are like, [SPEAKER_01]: the paternal.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, the paternal love, you know, so I feel and I felt very ashamed, I would say, and then we talked about it and it just takes time.

[SPEAKER_08]: It just takes time, you know, like he's not responding to my cues and expect him to react and I don't think his needs are met.

[SPEAKER_08]: I want my needs to be met, you know, telling him, hey, you know, react to me, react to me.

[SPEAKER_08]: So it's a journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like your first lesson in parenting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing goes as you assume it's going to go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing is what you think it's going to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they grow into you.

[SPEAKER_01]: They definitely do.

[SPEAKER_01]: You cannot.

[SPEAKER_01]: They become just blue parts of you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it's beautiful and so hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so complicated in all the ways, all the ways.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, we'll be right back.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, one moment please, speaking of that whole connection grows over time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thing, let's talk about making these little humans in the first place.

[SPEAKER_01]: For so many of us, queer families, donor conception is part of the story as you heard in this year episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: And California Cryobang, as we know, has been supporting our community through this for decades.

[SPEAKER_01]: They get that choosing a donor isn't just a transaction, it's emotional, it's vulnerable, ooh, so vulnerable.

[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes it is downright overwhelming, at least in my case it was.

[SPEAKER_01]: So whether you connect instantly or that bond grows in layers, like we talked about, the beautiful part is that family is something you build, not something that just magically appears fully formed, especially not for us.

[SPEAKER_01]: And California Cryobank is there from the start of that process.

[SPEAKER_01]: They offer one of the largest, most diverse donor catalogs out there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Plus, they have childhood photos, some adult photos, genetic testing, and all the details you need to make an informed choice.

[SPEAKER_01]: And because they've been longtime supporters of this show, you know they're committed to LGBTQIA plus families.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know it, and you know it now.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what you're going to do is go to cryobank.com and use code queerfam25 and you're going to get a free Level 2 subscription to their donor catalog.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can also use that code for discount on a Level 3 subscription, which gives you even more information about the donors.

[SPEAKER_01]: The more info we can get, the better.

[SPEAKER_01]: So go ahead, head to cryobank.com, start building that family, and then come tell me about them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get back to the show.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so egg donor chosen sperm is positive and then they made embryos.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm assuming correct and there's a lot of silence in between there too.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, embryos took, I think they did the embryos two or one or two days after and then we had to wait for five days for them to give us the how many embryos they had created and the grading of the embryos and the after those five days were also a very long time and then.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yes, and then again, I also think we had to learn so many things and we had to research about so many things because suddenly you're confronted with okay now we have embryos and they're graded and what does this mean and what do I need to decide what I need to what do I need to look and look into what is important what is not so the blast assist [SPEAKER_07]: Then we got our embryos, and we had, I think, four or five that were five that were good enough, three boys and two girls, three boys and two girls exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yes, and then we decided to go with the one with the highest rating after that.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, signs again until the agency would get us a surged carrier.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And were you involved in the finding of the surrogate or do they find it and say, if we found someone they live here?

[SPEAKER_01]: How does that work?

[SPEAKER_07]: The way B-parent works is that they suggested that they look for potential surrogates.

[SPEAKER_07]: And then what we agreed on is that they find somebody that sent us the profile, we check and if we think it's a match, then we would have an interview with them to get to know each other a bit better.

[SPEAKER_07]: If we weren't happy with the profile, they would find somebody else.

[SPEAKER_07]: If we after the interview would feel like it was not the right person, they would find somebody else for us.

[SPEAKER_07]: but it was it matched.

[SPEAKER_07]: So the first person they suggested for us.

[SPEAKER_08]: There's two points to act here.

[SPEAKER_08]: One is we had a specific need that surrogate mother has to be from Georgia, at least from like one of the countries where you don't need a visa to travel to Germany because of the leak.

[SPEAKER_08]: Like there's some, there's a thing called proof of paternity, who the father is that you can do early on before the childbirth.

[SPEAKER_08]: So that speeds up the exit process.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you can both be proof of paternity, both of you on the proof.

[SPEAKER_08]: No, only one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Only one.

[SPEAKER_08]: On Miguel's the, um, uh, so we wanted the baby to have a German passport.

[SPEAKER_08]: So Miguel is the, uh, okay.

[SPEAKER_08]: All the things you need to think about.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: The kids have and parentage, parentage is a huge thing, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Especially here in the States, we have to get second parent adoption and it's complicated.

[SPEAKER_08]: Two, we also had low expectations for the bar.

[SPEAKER_08]: We said for the surrogate mother was also low.

[SPEAKER_08]: We wanted the surrogate mother to be able to help us carry the child, which is healthy, that's enough, right?

[SPEAKER_08]: So we didn't wanna put too much thought into, [SPEAKER_08]: requirements.

[SPEAKER_08]: There was no requirements per say where she held you, she willing to do why she doing it, what her motivations and reasons aren't to do it, and that that was enough for us.

[SPEAKER_08]: And we we found the best target.

[SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_08]: Like really she's amazing.

[SPEAKER_08]: She's strong.

[SPEAKER_08]: She's she's amazing.

[SPEAKER_08]: She's very lovely.

[SPEAKER_08]: So that was the next process, the next step in the process.

[SPEAKER_01]: and then you found her and she got pregnant and you kind of then once once the pregnancy happens then you are kind of in touch with your surrogate as it goes along correct.

[SPEAKER_07]: We weren't touched through through the agency.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_07]: As we don't speak the same language, go through through the agency and we'd have calls together.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she was she was in Georgia.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so she was going to her doctor's appointments in Georgia.

[SPEAKER_06]: Correct.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the agency was like making sure that she was in the right place to go, like they picked out.

[SPEAKER_07]: I believe they would go with her to to the appointments and then we take videos, pictures and then share them with us and send us the pictures, videos, medical reports and just keep us updated.

[SPEAKER_07]: So again, it's updated quite well, like we were.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's good, because you're not going to any of the appointments, which must have felt hard.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yes, yes, yes, it's scary.

[SPEAKER_08]: But I think we placed our trust in the right agency.

[SPEAKER_08]: And I get it all ties down to that.

[SPEAKER_08]: I don't know what be parent would say, but we were less demanding in my opinion.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can understand being demanding when you're, you know, first of all, you're paying like a life savings, you're paying a little here.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not cheap and it's one of the most important decisions of a person's life, so I can understand being demanding.

[SPEAKER_08]: Totally, totally valid to be a monument, right, because it's your kids, you know, but also like we trust them quite a lot to make the right decisions and they kept us informed quite well.

[SPEAKER_08]: I think we built that trust from early on and I keep repeating this because it boils down to that.

[SPEAKER_08]: It really, really boils down to that.

[SPEAKER_08]: We had a very good experience throughout the whole journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's great.

[SPEAKER_07]: And because you have this work in periods, again, it's this.

[SPEAKER_07]: There's one appointment, the next appointment is a month after.

[SPEAKER_07]: So in that month, you just have to wait and you have to trust.

[SPEAKER_07]: And yes, those can be very long time to wait.

[SPEAKER_08]: It's like hearing the kids.

[SPEAKER_08]: The middle of the desert.

[SPEAKER_07]: And parenting would always sell us, hey, she's pregnant.

[SPEAKER_07]: But I think after the first week, but don't get over excited.

[SPEAKER_07]: Anything can go wrong.

[SPEAKER_07]: Next appointment, a month after, hey, everything is looking very good.

[SPEAKER_07]: All the values are in range.

[SPEAKER_07]: Everything is good.

[SPEAKER_07]: Don't be too excited.

[SPEAKER_07]: Don't be too excited.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's good to stay realistic because it's true.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've talked to couples who've done surgery, who it's taken.

[SPEAKER_01]: many, many, many, many like tries and years.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it can.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's building life sometimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's complicated.

[SPEAKER_08]: There was one element of like our luck, you know, like been very blessed.

[SPEAKER_08]: Not been very blessed.

[SPEAKER_08]: What's our first try?

[SPEAKER_08]: We did everything well.

[SPEAKER_08]: We took the right advice from the [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you let it out, and that's great.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when the birth happened, were you able to be there for the birth?

[SPEAKER_01]: How do that work?

[SPEAKER_08]: We weren't at the hospital, but we were around the hospital, right?

[SPEAKER_08]: But we weren't allowed in the same room for privacy reasons and totally understandable.

[SPEAKER_08]: And Alexander was born, and we could see him after two hours after he was born.

[SPEAKER_08]: And we would just get a message saying, hey, you can come to the hospital at this time, and then we were able to go and then we met Alexander.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, congratulations.

[SPEAKER_01]: Congrats.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so you didn't have any contact, like in-person contact with your surrogate.

[SPEAKER_08]: No, we only met her when she came to do the paperwork during the pregnancy.

[SPEAKER_07]: Oh, okay.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, we traveled to Berlin with support from the agency, one person from the agency also came and we met here in Berlin, had to sign some documents, went for a nice lunch.

[SPEAKER_07]: It was also very nice to meet her and also reinforced our thought that we made the right decision with her.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's great.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so and then Alexander was born and now you're you're parenting.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're in it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Deep in it.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_08]: You were stuff in the beginning.

[SPEAKER_08]: You know what?

[SPEAKER_08]: So coming back to the birth.

[SPEAKER_08]: Alexander was in breathing properly.

[SPEAKER_08]: So he was taking the nice of you for three days.

[SPEAKER_08]: And now it's [SPEAKER_08]: But we trusted the doctors, so they know what's best, and then we could bring him back home after all the paperwork, after we did have some complications with the German embassy, not the embassy, with the German authorities, with the German paperwork.

[SPEAKER_08]: But with all of that fixed, we could bring [SPEAKER_07]: I think that is a very long topic.

[SPEAKER_07]: Well, is it the parents?

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it is.

[SPEAKER_07]: Well, but...

[SPEAKER_07]: I mean, to deal with people that do not know how to do their job.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is actually, we talk about this a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if it has to do with like parentage and not being recognized as the dads, was it something like that?

[SPEAKER_08]: It was more in terms of the birth certificate.

[SPEAKER_08]: So according to the process, like the exit process, we needed to get a German birth certificate to get the German passport, right?

[SPEAKER_08]: Because we did the proof of paternity before, we what happens is Miguel now flies to Germany and says to the German where he stays, where he lives, or where he was registered, just a small town.

[SPEAKER_08]: And like we thought, okay, if we register here, the process would be faster.

[SPEAKER_08]: but it ended up biting us.

[SPEAKER_08]: So we go there and we say, so he goes there and he says, hey, can you give me a German birth certificate?

[SPEAKER_08]: This person's very new and very young, so she doesn't know the process.

[SPEAKER_08]: He said, oh, this is super complicated.

[SPEAKER_08]: I don't know what to do with this.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that, so figure it out.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_08]: And that, to cost us a little bit of stress, yeah.

[SPEAKER_08]: But we were still able to get a alternate document for Alexander, like it's a complete complementary, not necessarily the same.

[SPEAKER_08]: So they have four or five documents that can be accepted for the passport.

[SPEAKER_08]: So we got one of those.

[SPEAKER_08]: And we were able to come to the German embassy and then we got the passport and then we flew out.

[SPEAKER_08]: So it wasn't necessarily like the process, but more like there's a knowledge gap for the person the thing that was dealing with our case and she didn't want to take any decisions because she was new to the job.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, Gacha.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_08]: But now she's helping us with everything and [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, she's redeemed herself.

[SPEAKER_01]: But so, okay, so you just mentioned adoption.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was gonna be my next and final question.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anish, so I, so Miguel, you are, you are listed like on the birth certificate as father.

[SPEAKER_09]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_01]: Are you listed anywhere as parent or is that what we're talking about with the adoption and things like that?

[SPEAKER_08]: I'm not listed anywhere as a parent.

[SPEAKER_08]: I don't have any little rights to alexander.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_08]: So we just finished signing.

[SPEAKER_07]: So the surrogate mother had to sign document like waving her rights and giving her rights to to [SPEAKER_07]: And that was only possible eight weeks after he was born.

[SPEAKER_07]: Oh, it was basically within the first eight weeks.

[SPEAKER_07]: It's like the German law says that the woman is not, cannot make decisions.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can that make decisions?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because women, we can't use our brains.

[SPEAKER_01]: Especially after childbirth.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is what the German, that's crazy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: And also, she's listed as the mom, even though she's not the, she's not even, she's not biologically connected to this child.

[SPEAKER_07]: That's basically tied to the, to the baby.

[SPEAKER_07]: But based on German law, whoever is giving birth is the mother, regardless of the genetic ties.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's in many places, that's what they do.

[SPEAKER_07]: So now, once we have this, we can continue with adoption process, basically, a court needs to, in the end, decide that an issue becomes the father of the child as well, on paper.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's basically just, it's like the adoption process.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have to go through all the steps of the adoption process.

[SPEAKER_01]: are in in Germany, how are they with these same sex adoptions?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know like in general like are there ever issues surrounding this or you might not even [SPEAKER_08]: general ideas that they make the decision what's spent with the child.

[SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[SPEAKER_08]: Most cases from what I heard and from my research, they will side with the parents, but sometimes it can be that, you know, they're not very thrilled about it.

[SPEAKER_08]: Because based on like where you are from, you know, there are some conservative regions that can be very conservative.

[SPEAKER_08]: So it depends on a case by case [SPEAKER_08]: But mostly, they will cite with parents because German laws that the child needs a stable and a loving family.

[SPEAKER_08]: And I think gay parents will definitely give that for this child.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I mean, list all the steps you took to get that baby home.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we will provide a nice home trust trust changes need to be made one of these days, you know us and us living authentically and and showing up the way that we do and challenging these like outdated norms will I do believe will change the world for the better and helping [SPEAKER_01]: someone like you have parental rights over your son doesn't just help gay people, it helps all people, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: All the rights that we fight for actually end up helping everyone else.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just for gay people or queer people.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think our troubles and tribulations and the hoops we go through will eventually end up helping to change the world for the better.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah absolutely.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I think for example while we might not be ready with all the paperwork for him and passports and everything we got our both got paternity leave.

[SPEAKER_07]: So we both got it that was no issue and Germany, you also get the very general, how do you say they're parental allowance or something?

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, so we also both got parental allowance.

[SPEAKER_07]: Oh wow.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yes, for for an issue, it was even a faster and smoother process than for me.

[SPEAKER_07]: So there's also things that are going very well and very fast.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's amazing.

[SPEAKER_08]: Very good.

[SPEAKER_08]: We always dwell on the negative side.

[SPEAKER_08]: But there are so many positives.

[SPEAKER_08]: Like we could walk on the streets with Alexander, like being just us, you know, like to be live in a society where we're very blessed.

[SPEAKER_08]: And structurally, we don't have the parentage on paper, but we did get the benefits from the government.

[SPEAKER_08]: And one way we're talking about it, what is the pinnacle of equality?

[SPEAKER_08]: This is a pinnacle of equality, you know, I get the same benefits as trade couples or, you know, for the traditional families.

[SPEAKER_08]: So for us, that was a big win.

[SPEAKER_08]: We call it a win.

[SPEAKER_08]: We were like, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_08]: It's a win.

[SPEAKER_08]: Getting money.

[SPEAKER_07]: The other meant for it.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: We get to take our wins.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think you're right.

[SPEAKER_01]: We need to remember to highlight even the little wins.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that you can walk down the street and nobody questions you or gives you problems or you don't have to hide.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a win for us.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a win.

[SPEAKER_01]: So don't forget that we do have.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have good things.

[SPEAKER_01]: We do.

[SPEAKER_01]: We do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to change the world to make it even better.

[SPEAKER_08]: I really genuinely try.

[SPEAKER_08]: Now I'm [SPEAKER_08]: I've inspired two, three couples.

[SPEAKER_08]: In fact, to go through, sorry, you guys say, or at least think about it and try.

[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, it's very important that I didn't have that support system and us getting on this podcast is also for that pure reason, you know, like share our stories, there will be somebody who can resonate with your story and, you know, you could help them.

[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_08]: Family.

[SPEAKER_01]: No two stories are the same.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why this I have like almost 300 episodes and it keeps going.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've interviewed a lot of people who've done surrogacy to build their families and no two stories are the same.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I just learned so many new things here in your story.

[SPEAKER_01]: So many different things, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it really is important that we [SPEAKER_01]: out there and telling our stories because like you said it's going to inspire others like maybe there's a couple who's like oh my god This is our path and I want to do it just like and you should Miguel did it.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can never know Yeah, so thank you for sharing your story It means a lot and I'm so happy for you and good luck with that little nugget because You're just you're in the beginning here.

[SPEAKER_01]: We go baby [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, thank you.

[SPEAKER_07]: Thank you so much, Jamie, for giving us the opportunity and for giving us the platform to tell our story.

[SPEAKER_07]: I think it's very important for us to share our story and to inspire others, yes.

[SPEAKER_08]: And they're amazing what they are doing, having this platform and the ability for us.

[SPEAKER_08]: For people to come on and share their story then, like make us feel comfortable about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yay.

[SPEAKER_01]: What are we just, it's just a love vest.

[SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right, well keep keep me posted.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to know how everything goes.

[SPEAKER_08]: Thank you for making so much.

[SPEAKER_08]: Even as the opportunity.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_01]: A huge thank you to our sponsors of this here episode, California Cryobank and be parent surrogacy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Learn more about them, find the promo codes and the links to their websites in the show notes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Make those babies y'all and then come tell me about them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whew, well folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you did enjoy it, feel free to listen to another or watch another.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have so many episodes for your listening or viewing pleasure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just go pick one and enjoy.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're really good.

[SPEAKER_01]: And also, if you really do like this show, please, I know I say it all the time, but please do consider supporting the show on Patreon.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're just gonna go to patreon.com, slash the queer family podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're gonna pick a tear, you're gonna join, and you're gonna get that bonus content.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you're also gonna get my love and adoration for the rest of my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love you all, thanks for tuning in, keep on tuning in, and I'll see you next time.