[SPEAKER_04]: This episode and the entire year of episodes is proudly brought to you by California Cryobank.

[SPEAKER_04]: Use code queerfam25 for a free level 2 subscription to their donor catalog.

[SPEAKER_04]: Go do that now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because these are a privilege.

[SPEAKER_03]: These are not a right.

[SPEAKER_03]: These are not a right.

[SPEAKER_03]: We do, you do not have to buy your kids, iPads, phones.

[SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to do it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a privilege and with privilege.

[SPEAKER_03]: comes responsibility and responsibility isn't will you clean up your room and you can have some more screen time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Responsibility is you've got to be willing to have conversations about limits.

[SPEAKER_03]: You have to be willing to follow the rules and I'm a positive discipline person and we are all about collaboration.

[SPEAKER_03]: We are not about punishment or rewards.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're about [SPEAKER_03]: You know, natural consequences that connect with whatever the mistake was, but with this, just like with drugs and alcohol, like you've got to have hard rules and there are places that are not up for negotiation collaboration.

[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome y'all to the queer family podcast to show all about family, but with gay.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm Jamie, I'm your gay host.

[SPEAKER_04]: And this is the show that highlights celebrates Uplus and normalizes.

[SPEAKER_04]: LGBTQIA plus families in all of our fabulous identities.

[SPEAKER_04]: And this episode's a good one.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's actually what I like to call an ally episode.

[SPEAKER_04]: I spoke with Casey over to Casey also happens to be the host of another podcast called Joyful Courage, which is great show you should check it out.

[SPEAKER_04]: But Casey happens to be one of the non-queers of the world.

[SPEAKER_04]: But don't worry, don't you fret, because I say this all the time every once in a while, I let a non-clear on the show if they are fully aligned with our my show and and that if I think that they offer some stuff that maybe my listeners might really drive with and like, and I think y'all are going to like Casey, I like Casey a lot.

[SPEAKER_04]: And Casey happens to be an expert on technology and basically screens when it comes to kids.

[SPEAKER_04]: And if you live in this world and you are a parent or you're thinking of parenting, this whole screen time debate and what you should allow your kids to do on the screens, all the things that go with screens is something you're going to waste so many hours thinking and worrying about.

[SPEAKER_04]: And Casey comes in with some really wonderful advice and knowledge.

[SPEAKER_04]: I learned so much just from sitting down and talking with Casey and I learned so many things to implement and I'm happy to say that I've implemented like at least one of them one time so far since I talked to her and now that I'm really listening to our talk, I'm going to implement more and I'm going to remember to do it better.

[SPEAKER_04]: But one of my biggest takeaways with KC was this idea and it really goes along with something we talk about all the time on this show when it comes to transparency, transparency with our children and talking to them about their origin stories.

[SPEAKER_04]: Same thing goes for the screens.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's all about transparency in screens and making sure you are having open and honest conversations with your kids surrounding screen safety and screen usage in general to make sure that your [SPEAKER_04]: have critical thinking skills and have a healthy relationship to the screens because the truth is screens are just a part of life now and we have to navigate it and we need to teach our children to navigate them in a smart way as well.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's a really great conversation.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're all going to love it and I think you're all going to take something away from it and I've been trying to talk to like the people in my parenting sphere more and more.

[SPEAKER_04]: You'll hear in the episode we talk about how you should talk to all the parents that you're surrounded with that your kids are friends with and make sure y'all are on the same page or at least try to get on the same page surrounding screens because as these kids get older it gets harder and harder to hold to the principles that you hold dear in your family when it comes to.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, what we allow, what we don't allow when it comes to phones, it's screens and iPads and all the things and the TVs.

[SPEAKER_04]: But if you can get the parents around you to fall in line and be like a united front, it makes it much easier.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I've been trying so hard to like talk to the parents around me about screens.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it really is hard.

[SPEAKER_04]: And this goes back to my episode with Jesse Collins that I had, where Jesse was talking about how we need to come back to like a communal, [SPEAKER_04]: Parenting where we all rely on each other and we talk to each other about our fears and our misgivings, but we aren't in that kind of a parenting sphere.

[SPEAKER_04]: We've gotten so individualistic.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so when I bring up screens, I do feel a lot of parents shying away and like feeling judged because I think we all feel slightly judged.

[SPEAKER_04]: when it comes to this whole device conversation and how much we give them and how much we should give them.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's so really hard topic to bring up, but I'm making a promise to all you and you're going to hear in the episode why.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm making a promise to all of you.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to do better at talking to the parents around me about [SPEAKER_04]: My priorities when it comes to screens and trying to get other parents on the same board as me.

[SPEAKER_04]: You'll see it's very interesting.

[SPEAKER_04]: On another note, in family news, at the Kelwood's house, my son, my seven-year-old, has been, well, he wants another boy in the house.

[SPEAKER_04]: He's always wanted another boy in the house because he's the only boy because we're all girls and even our dog is a girl.

[SPEAKER_04]: And he's always gripping about that.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so he's been on us to get him a boy fish for like forever.

[SPEAKER_04]: But we already have a dog and I'm like, we're not getting another pet.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're not doing it because who's going to be the one to clean the tanks?

[SPEAKER_04]: Who me?

[SPEAKER_04]: That's who.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't want to.

[SPEAKER_04]: But we went to the Sanginero festival, which is the festival that happens every year and little Italy here in New York City.

[SPEAKER_04]: And they had rides in games, which I wasn't expecting.

[SPEAKER_04]: And one of the games was one of those games where you throw the ball.

[SPEAKER_04]: And if it gets into a ball, you get a fish.

[SPEAKER_04]: You get a goldfish, and he was like, well, please, please, please, please.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I like look over it, and I'm like, wink, wink, let's let him do it, wink, wink.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we'll do it.

[SPEAKER_04]: We'll do it, you know, like wink, wink, and we're not gonna get any balls in these bowls.

[SPEAKER_04]: Then of course Anne starts throwing them, and she gets one in.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god, we got a fish.

[SPEAKER_04]: She gets another in.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, we got two fishes.

[SPEAKER_04]: We ended up with two boy fishes.

[SPEAKER_04]: Now we got a fish tank.

[SPEAKER_04]: We got the whole thing, the whole nine yards.

[SPEAKER_04]: And my son is so excited because there are finally more boys in the house.

[SPEAKER_04]: When the guy was handing us the fish, I was like, those are the boy fish, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Those are those are boy fish, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: And he was like, uh, yeah, lady.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, whatever you say.

[SPEAKER_04]: I was like, yes, just say their boys, say their books.

[SPEAKER_04]: So he's super excited.

[SPEAKER_04]: He's got some boys to hang out with and the fish.

[SPEAKER_04]: We said, of course, then that was like $10 to play the game.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then of course, right, go to the pet store and get an aquarium and the thing and the thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: So $100 later, now we get a whole set up and some fish that are probably in a dime.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to have to replace.

[SPEAKER_04]: Now I feel as such like I have to keep these things alive.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's so stressful in my life.

[SPEAKER_04]: But I'll tell you what.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's worth it for the smile on that little boy's face.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I got the idea of saying they were boy fish from this is a nod to my previous co-host Robin because she always talked about how she made sure they got a boy fish quote unquote for her son too Because he was having the same gripes.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, boy fish just a little just a little way to help your kids through the the gender gap that happens in our family sometimes this little boy is [SPEAKER_04]: He's to the moon right now with these fish and that's worth all that's worth everything.

[SPEAKER_04]: I haven't been able to get this kid to smile for a picture in probably like two years.

[SPEAKER_04]: He always makes a face or, you know, he's in that age.

[SPEAKER_04]: That kid was holding those fish in those bags.

[SPEAKER_04]: And he has the biggest grin on his face in this picture.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it's worth it.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's worth it.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's parenting for you.

[SPEAKER_04]: There it is.

[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, I hope y'all are saying safe and healthy in your hearts during these trying times we're living through and I hope this episode will offer you a little bit of lightness and hope and love and also some great guidelines for how to make sure kids stay safe on their screens.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: Also, my daughter broke her phone recently, so we've been dealing with that too.

[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, enjoy this episode.

[SPEAKER_04]: I've really talked a lot for this intro.

[SPEAKER_04]: I apologize to all of you that you've heard my voice for so long, but I hope you enjoyed it.

[SPEAKER_04]: Let's roll that tape.

[SPEAKER_04]: Helen, Bula, my lovely assistants who do not exist.

[SPEAKER_04]: There's nobody in this house but me.

[SPEAKER_04]: Please roll that [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, Casey.

[SPEAKER_04]: Hi, it's a pleasure we've already been talking like crazy like old friends sitting at having coffee right now.

[SPEAKER_04]: So like this is this is such a fun little treat to have you a fellow podcaster here with me to chat.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, same same.

[SPEAKER_03]: I feel the same way.

[SPEAKER_03]: So excited.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know, me too.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, all right, without further ado, you're going to have to give us your 30 second elevator pitch, which is a very mean thing as a podcaster to do.

[SPEAKER_04]: I realize it fully, but your 30 second elevator pitch of who you are and why you're here talking to the queer fam squad.

[SPEAKER_04]: I like to call them on your mind.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm ready.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, set.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: Go.

[SPEAKER_03]: My name is Casey O'Ready.

[SPEAKER_03]: I am a positive discipline lead trainer.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a parent coach.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm one of the co-founders that's sproutable where we work with parents from with kids from zero beyond 18.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm the adolescent lead there.

[SPEAKER_03]: I live all things teenager.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm also a mom with a 19 year old and a 22 year old and I've been through.

[SPEAKER_03]: all the things.

[SPEAKER_03]: So if we were going to make a list of challenges, I'd be like, check, check, check, navigate it all of that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love, love, love supporting parents, specifically parents of adolescents.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that's it, you're done.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, you got, you went slightly over, but I feel like you got to start up on one second.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: Everybody goes over.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's the whole point.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's the fun part.

[SPEAKER_04]: But you didn't mention your podcast.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, geez.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm the host of the Joyful Courage Podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: Listen to it in all the places that you also listen to this amazing show.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I love Jamie here because I love you.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm super stoked and honored to be [SPEAKER_03]: able to talk to your people.

[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I love that.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm excited to have you.

[SPEAKER_04]: I've been on your show.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and so now you're on mine.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it's a full circle moment.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I have so many questions for you about the adolescents.

[SPEAKER_04]: So.

[SPEAKER_04]: for you can many and I do we do have to we have to talk about the elephant in the room you are an ally You're not you're not one of us queers, but that's okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, thank you for it because you're awesome and we love you I'm also white and I'm middle class.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like this gender.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so basic [SPEAKER_04]: I'm busy for 11 months when part listen we're just two basic bitches talking on a mic here, but that's okay We're gonna have a good conversation.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm really excited to actually pick your brain and hear the things and yeah, but before [SPEAKER_04]: we go into adolescence.

[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like because we were already talking about something else before we hit record and I feel like we should just go into finish that conversation up a little bit because we happen to be both of us have spouses with cancer right now.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I said that with a giggle and then stop my- I don't know why I'm giggling but it's a thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: It is.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's a thing and whenever you can talk to another spouse who's going through it side by side with their spouse, it is cathartic.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_04]: to be able to talk to somebody else who's watching their spout, spout's go through one of the most difficult things ever.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: There is to go through.

[SPEAKER_04]: We were talking about your husband has a blood cancer.

[SPEAKER_03]: He has multiple myeloma, which is a blood cancer.

[SPEAKER_03]: Usually it shows up in older older people, not just middle-aged people.

[SPEAKER_03]: So he was diagnosed in 2020.

[SPEAKER_03]: went through treatment, which was bizarre, but also perfect that it was pandemic because it's, he had a stem cell transplant, which totally gets rid of your immune system and you're like, a little baby.

[SPEAKER_03]: And baby immune system, so you can't go out.

[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_03]: The fact that the kids weren't in school and nobody was coming over in our family, [SPEAKER_03]: really tightened up.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know that's not the case in every family, but I mean, it was like such a tight beautiful.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we had already been navigating, which my daughter's been on the podcast to talk about right before Ben got diagnosed.

[SPEAKER_03]: She was having a total mental health spiral, and actually Ben's diagnosis kind of was this opportunity for her to see like, oh, the world actually doesn't revolve around me.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's interesting to kind of think about how that served her healing journey, which is bizarre to say.

[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, it went dormant and now he's back in treatment.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of peaked back up.

[SPEAKER_03]: I like, I think about multiple myelomas, something that they can kind of put to rest for a little while.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then it cancels smart.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so it figures out the work around and shows back up.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's kind of a lifestyle, which is weird to say.

[SPEAKER_04]: awful.

[SPEAKER_04]: Not fun.

[SPEAKER_04]: Not fun at all, but you put it into perspective a little bit from me already.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like you were talking about it earlier with me when you and you said it was like some one of it gift this cancer has been like that not to call it a gift.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's pieces in there.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, for, and it's, and it's interesting to be in the experience that's kind of this ongoing ever present experience versus something like breast cancer or [SPEAKER_03]: carry on.

[SPEAKER_03]: Blood cancers are a little bit different so far.

[SPEAKER_03]: And like I said to you, Jamie, like easy for me to say as the person without cancer.

[SPEAKER_03]: But especially this round, like the deep, there's some deep personal spiritual growth that's happening in my marriage and in Ben's experience, just the way that he's holding everything right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's this cracking open of, I think if you allow it or if you're willing to go there and not and you don't have to in fuck cancer, like who you know, like first of all you get out no one needs to get cancer, nobody needs this and also it is this like what I'm observing is it's this opportunity for a cracking open to really allow the soul to have a space.

[SPEAKER_03]: in the human experience if that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we're not religious, but I'm really spiritual.

[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I'm just really seeing him doing some deep soul work in a different way than round one.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and I think the universe really is like, I don't know, I hold hard things as, okay, like how is this an opportunity?

[SPEAKER_03]: What's possible here?

[SPEAKER_03]: What is this making possible?

[SPEAKER_03]: Again, from this easy for me to say.

[SPEAKER_03]: not being called cancer.

[SPEAKER_03]: But we've also moved through all sorts of other things like, you know, I already kind of mentioned the stuff that went down with my daughter was really hard and witnessing her being inside of [SPEAKER_03]: You know, what felt like a cage of mental unhealth, you know, non-health, it was really, it's kind of that same experience.

[SPEAKER_03]: It almost trained me up to be with what's going on with Ben.

[SPEAKER_03]: So.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, mostly life is great, you know, mostly life is tight and connected and we're planning for the future and in a place of deep like hope and possibility.

[SPEAKER_03]: And there's this little annoying side show of we got to go to Seattle pretty regularly so he can get it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there'll be injection and his belly doesn't feel good because he has to take these chemo pills and so yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: All the things life unfolding, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: That's what I keep saying life is lifeing for us.

[SPEAKER_04]: I keep saying it to myself, it's just life, lifeing.

[SPEAKER_04]: We are getting into fear, dose of life right now.

[SPEAKER_04]: And [SPEAKER_04]: handling it however each of us needs to handle it.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm not the one going through the side effects.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not going the one going through the treatment and I don't know what it feels like.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know it's it's just been so hard for her.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like I'm helpless.

[SPEAKER_04]: Being able to help her, you know, and for her it's just been [SPEAKER_04]: like a deep sadness, like some big moods that sometimes she just can't shake.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's heartbreaking, you know.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then this cancer journey, like you were just kind of saying, like it's just this like ongoing [SPEAKER_04]: journey that seems to just really never have a freaking end like we thought when we got to the end of the chemo it was going to be this huge like we were going to celebrate but no then it's like oh yeah by the way now you have 14 immunotherapy treatments every three weeks which is a year oh over you know it's over a year [SPEAKER_03]: of more treatments.

[SPEAKER_03]: Modern medicine also, inside of Ben's journey, my brother also was diagnosed with metastatic melanoma, brain tumors.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, not really stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, they thought he was going to die.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he is the poster child for immunotherapy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like he rang the bell, no detectable cancer in his body.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was a two-year nightmare for him.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he came out the other side.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, amazing things are happening in cancer, medicine, and research.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just gotta get to people's lovesy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, total, thank God for science.

[SPEAKER_02]: God, people who love science, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank God for those people.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, all for it.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, yeah, but yeah, it's been, it's just, you know, it's a journey and then the radiation.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it's just like navigating the moods of a whole other human being that doesn't handle life the same way you necessarily handle.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, maybe one day in this journey will get to a place where we're having a spiritual [SPEAKER_04]: Awakening together, but I don't know.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Casey.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'll tell you what's been really helpful for my man is he I have a really good friend who does rakey energy work and she's one of those people that's like [SPEAKER_03]: the real deal and she's like magic and he has been going to see her and that has been such a powerful venue for him to be with, you know, he's he's kind of that typical raised male emotional intelligence wasn't top of mind for the adults in his life as he developed.

[SPEAKER_03]: So [SPEAKER_03]: it's been a really great avenue for him to be with the emotional experience.

[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, so highly rack.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't have one, but I can find when I'm sure one of the listeners is going to know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, in the New York City listeners tell me the queer world they're going to know a rakey person for sure.

[SPEAKER_04]: We know the rakey people.

[SPEAKER_04]: We know the rakey people.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so that being said we're going through, or each going through our cancer journeys here, but let's talk a little bit about the adolescent in our lives.

[SPEAKER_04]: Because it is a whole thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: Casey, like, what is happening?

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's also a lifestyle.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a season, you know?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's this long transition between childhood and adulthood.

[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, something that I say about parenting teenagers is the messiness is not an indicator that you're doing something wrong.

[SPEAKER_03]: The message is the teen brain development that there's no getting around.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's no like secret formula to somehow not have to deal with teen brain development.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is happening no matter what.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, what is shocking to me, it's happening earlier than I expect.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's 11, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: So, she seems like a 16-year-old to me at this point.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's so mature, she's super independent.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's always like since she came out of the womb that child craved independence.

[SPEAKER_04]: And...

[SPEAKER_04]: Actually, I find that the more independent she gets, the easier she gets.

[SPEAKER_04]: So actually like from birth to now, I'd actually say she's the easiest to get along with now to be honest.

[SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're giving me a look like it's going to change.

[SPEAKER_03]: Get right.

[SPEAKER_03]: What is kind of clashes with what you're comfortable with is where it gets a little slippery.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because they're on this trajectory.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're like, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, my hand is moving up for listeners.

[SPEAKER_04]: But this is what I'm, so we're going to talk about screens too, because that's not another frontier land.

[SPEAKER_04]: But like, what I'm noticing with this whole tween, she's a tween.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's not a teen yet, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: She seems like a teen.

[SPEAKER_04]: But they're not all kind of maturing at the same rate, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: So her small group of girlfriends, they all seem to be the same.

[SPEAKER_04]: They all have the same level of independence.

[SPEAKER_04]: And they're into the same stuff.

[SPEAKER_04]: And like, she's out on the streets on her own now.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, she gets everywhere by herself.

[SPEAKER_03]: I live out in, like, country land.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm thinking New York City.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's like hopping on the subway and cruising around.

[SPEAKER_03]: That blows my mind.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then my mother comfortably.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, oh, right.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I never thought I would be comfortable with it.

[SPEAKER_04]: But when she went to middle school, it was like, I'm going to go, I'm going to walk to school in my own.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, OK, great, great.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then it's her closest friends all live in another neighborhood that takes a train to get to.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so she's like, I'm going to go to a so-and-so-so house and so her.

[SPEAKER_04]: OK, so that's what's happening now.

[SPEAKER_04]: So she's doing that.

[SPEAKER_04]: And she takes the train regularly on her own now, which is like, amazing.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, and I have to kind of have a little, a level of, I have to remove myself a little bit, so I can't think about this too much, because she's gonna do it.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's gonna be on this train, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: You chose to live in New York City.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's on you.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I wanted, yes, exactly.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we say here because we want them to have independence.

[SPEAKER_04]: We want them to know how to navigate the city and we want them to see all walks of life, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: So it's a choice we made.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're so correct.

[SPEAKER_04]: If we, if I really sit down and think about this, this is scary.

[SPEAKER_04]: Shh, it, it is so scary.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's so interesting that that is scary and people are buying smartphones for their eight-year-olds and letting them have full-rain.

[SPEAKER_03]: like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't get right.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that is like so much more access to worst case scenarios that is just not landing for parents.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you know, one of, I have, I'm actually doing an interview after this with Dr.

Wang, or last name, it's spelled TWE and GE.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she just wrote a book called The Ten Rules for Raising Kids in the High Tech World.

[SPEAKER_03]: And one of her things she talks about limits on screens and we can go into screens whenever you want.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, a brain.

[SPEAKER_03]: One of her rules is also more access to real life experience and real world stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so you're already following one of the rules just having your girl out there.

[SPEAKER_03]: being independent.

[SPEAKER_03]: So good job.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: But yes, and, right, yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: And she's, you know, she's got her phone.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think I'm not letting her go out on the street.

[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_04]: But obviously, I check her.

[SPEAKER_04]: You say real life experience, but she's got her nose on that phone the whole time she's walking, like, which is like, I tell her constantly.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, when you walk, the phone is down.

[SPEAKER_04]: The phone is down.

[SPEAKER_04]: You do not look at, but she keeps doing it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it's, you know, it's something that I continue to see yell at her for.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the other rule is, it was starting with the basic phone.

[SPEAKER_03]: So there's something for her to look at unless it's a map.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right, it's the texting though because it's the texting.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's the content.

[SPEAKER_04]: And they're on all these group chats.

[SPEAKER_04]: So this is what happens.

[SPEAKER_04]: You get them the message.

[SPEAKER_04]: You get them the device finally.

[SPEAKER_04]: So she finally got it in sixth grade.

[SPEAKER_03]: Do they beg since they're five years old?

[SPEAKER_03]: Which is so [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_04]: So annoying.

[SPEAKER_04]: And what I was shocked by was the fact that they don't communicate, I knew that they texted all the time, but they refused to communicate via phone call.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, that is like, ew, mom.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not calling her.

[SPEAKER_04]: Why would it call her?

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Just give her a call.

[SPEAKER_04]: No.

[SPEAKER_04]: Ew, I'll text her.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's like, [SPEAKER_04]: Deep, this one is very deep with these children.

[SPEAKER_04]: So she's walking on the street and she's just texting people all the time.

[SPEAKER_04]: But what we did do, even when she had an iPad as a kid, there's no safari.

[SPEAKER_04]: We took off.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: Good.

[SPEAKER_04]: She can't search the internet.

[SPEAKER_04]: You can't take it off of Apple devices for everybody at home.

[SPEAKER_04]: You can't take it off, but you can set a one minute time limit.

[SPEAKER_04]: So she has one minute to like search something up and she'll do it.

[SPEAKER_04]: She'll be like, I have a minute, I haven't, you know, and my son too, like their devices because he's got an iPad, but there's no internet on the devices.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: which that we did and they think were monsters for it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know, what do you think about that?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, even more than 100% percent?

[SPEAKER_03]: No, I mean, if I could go back in time, I would do it differently.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, really?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, we iPads came into my life because of my beautiful, wonderful, generous, didn't check in with me first.

[SPEAKER_03]: Mom, [SPEAKER_03]: gave each of my kids an iPad with their name engraved in the back.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, basically, same thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they were young.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the first thing that happened was Rowan racked up like a $200 bill on collecting jewels.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was unprepared, it was like go crazy.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then, oh my god, we've got to rain this in, but I was so unprepared for it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was so unprepared for the iPad, which just kind of spun into then an iPod touch, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: We didn't do phones, but they basically had a phone.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was called an iPod touch.

[SPEAKER_03]: I kept them off social media.

[SPEAKER_03]: I tell a eighth grade except for.

[SPEAKER_03]: When I saw that my daughter was actually, I got a friend request for her friend suggestion from my daughter on Snapchat.

[SPEAKER_03]: I remember being in the backyard and saying, Oh, babe, come on down here.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think she was in sixth or seventh grade.

[SPEAKER_03]: So she, friend, did you a Snapchat friend request?

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, Snapchat was like, you might know this person and I was like, well, actually Snapchat, I do.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the only reason I was on Snapchat is because I was trying to prepare myself to understand it for when she did get on it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, it was a whole thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: If I could go back in time, I would get my kid a basic phone.

[SPEAKER_03]: I would not get them an Apple product because they're out there.

[SPEAKER_03]: Fones that start with nothing and then you can build.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, we tried.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know, I know.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know.

[SPEAKER_03]: We gotta try harder, though.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know.

[SPEAKER_03]: We gotta try harder.

[SPEAKER_03]: For all of you that are listening with younger kids, try it'd be better than us.

[SPEAKER_03]: Be better than me.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Now, see, and now that we gave the daughter the iPhone, the sun is like, it's like, how am I gonna say, oh no, you don't get one?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, you just say it.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I'm hearing you.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so sorry.

[SPEAKER_03]: I did the wrong thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I love you.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love you more than your sister.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's why I'm...

[SPEAKER_03]: Because I've been on college campuses.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, my son is a sophomore in college and I moved him into his apartment a few weeks ago.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, these devices are doing damage to an entire generation of kids.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I already mentioned my daughter's mental health.

[SPEAKER_03]: Would she have been, I mean, she came out wired anxious like that was a part of her temperament and you know, which morphed into body dysmorphia, [SPEAKER_03]: so much crippling and excited.

[SPEAKER_03]: She ended up dropping out of school in 11th grade.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, has since gotten her ascetician license, works at a beautiful spa, is now in college, is a junior at Western Washington University studying biochemistry and is like doing amazing.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I wonder what life would have been like for her without this added layer of madness.

[SPEAKER_03]: And this gal that I'm interviewing later today, she also says like no social media until they get their driver's license.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, they just won't meet it.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's what we're trying to do.

[SPEAKER_04]: And this is, oh my God, I had no idea how hard this was going to be because her friends have TikTok and Snapchat already.

[SPEAKER_04]: And she gets, like, we call it social media time, where she gets to look at Anne's phone and TikTok account for, like, a set amount of time, like, every once in a while, when we're [SPEAKER_04]: But here's the thing with that.

[SPEAKER_04]: She tells her friends, oh, yeah, I have a TikTok account.

[SPEAKER_04]: She basically thinks that that's her TikTok account, which basically kind of is because Anne doesn't actually use TikTok.

[SPEAKER_04]: She only got TikTok to like all my videos.

[SPEAKER_03]: Good job, Anne.

[SPEAKER_03]: Would you like mine too?

[SPEAKER_03]: Because I only have like a follow-ers on TikTok.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll set that up.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'll set that up.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'll tell her my daughter there.

[SPEAKER_04]: Everybody go follow.

[SPEAKER_03]: Foxy, Casey, joyful courage.

[SPEAKER_04]: joyful courage, and let's get those followers up.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know, here we are talking about George.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't look at anything on TikTok.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm afraid because I have terrible screen.

[SPEAKER_03]: I have an app on my phone, the Opel app, which shuts down social media for big chunks of my day and night, because I can't be trusted.

[SPEAKER_04]: I have a problem.

[SPEAKER_04]: I get it and I'm on it all the time and I because it's like because I hate to watch my social media.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's what I tell my kids it's work.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not because I do I need to research what the trends are and I have to kick up on the right trend and like it's redist and so down.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm watching comedians as babies because of AI saying hilarious things.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's no.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have just a sheet of [SPEAKER_02]: I don't look at cute puppies constant, like watching babies swear.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, not at all in the bathroom mirror.

[SPEAKER_04]: No, it's so fun.

[SPEAKER_04]: Not at all.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, God.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, God.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, God.

[SPEAKER_04]: But like, okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: So like, that's really addictive.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we know.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's a problem for everybody.

[SPEAKER_03]: not just our kids.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so we're right.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so we're trying to hold like till 16.

[SPEAKER_04]: We told her you cannot have any social media.

[SPEAKER_04]: We also did this thing where we did it wrong when she was little because Grandma gave her an iPad.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, same thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we [SPEAKER_04]: didn't know YouTube was as bad as it was and all of a sudden she's watching those videos of people unwrapping gifts and she was like addicted to YouTube at like the age of five.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so we told her one day we decided to do it.

[SPEAKER_04]: We told her YouTube went out of business.

[SPEAKER_04]: It was gone.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: And she believed us.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that's stuck for three years.

[SPEAKER_04]: She thought YouTube was out of business.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, so we got rid of the YouTube habit with her and then she, and then like her friend was on it one day and she was like, oh my god, oh my god mom guess what you two [SPEAKER_04]: so it worked.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then she was then we had to fest up until we like like so to this day all right, my son is not a he's not allowed YouTube.

[SPEAKER_04]: He's never been allowed YouTube at all.

[SPEAKER_04]: His friends watch YouTube and that's his battle is mom, please let me watch YouTube in her battle is mom.

[SPEAKER_04]: Let me have [SPEAKER_04]: Snapchat.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: And TikTok.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, and it's like, I mean, like, about smoking and nicotine.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I mean, problematic nicotine use happens because we, and I'll put myself in this category, because I have had a relationship with a nicotine that has been super irritating, although I'm, it's me and wine.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's really in these days.

[SPEAKER_03]: But it's, you know, it's an adolescent.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's something [SPEAKER_03]: tobacco companies for us to get hooked in adolescence, and we're lifelong, you know, users and it's the same thing, you know, and it is it's not inhaling toxins in our body, but it is absolutely affecting brain development.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we know this.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, what I think if I were going back in time, I would have just been such the obnoxious mom and we've talked about this before being the mom who always is like, well, I would be the one who was like, really, like, come on, everyone, moms, come over.

[SPEAKER_03]: We got to talk about these screens.

[SPEAKER_03]: We got to be aligned, help me support each other.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, we've, it has to be that way.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I was just listening to a, [SPEAKER_03]: Like an NPR story about how many school districts are starting the school year and I know it's been a slow rollout locking away students' phones.

[SPEAKER_04]: It just happened in New York City, citywide.

[SPEAKER_04]: But roses middle school already had that policy.

[SPEAKER_04]: They already had to put their phones in the younger bags and that was one of our prerequisites when we were looking for a middle school.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: because Anne works in a high school and they have yonder bags and okay yeah yonder bags tell me about the yonder bags because I'm trying to picture it in my head and I it's like I'm it's like a lake and leather or fake leather bag that's magnetic okay so when they walk into school they each they all have their own yonder bag or maybe it's not leather I don't know what it is but um they when they walk in the building they have to put their phone in and it closes in at locks and then the only way to open it is [SPEAKER_04]: at that end of school has.

[SPEAKER_04]: So as they leave, they get to unlock their back.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, because I was confused by that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't understand why they're caring about what they're phone in and then can't get in it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's so it locks, so they're not able to use it, but if there's an emergency and they need it, then the teacher can, the administration can use the magnet thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: But then kids found ways, like if you go on YouTube and they know how to open them and they know how to, you can buy the magnet on Amazon or something.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like it's like, you know, it's easy for the young adults.

[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_04]: That was one of our prerequisites for the school that we went to.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I think that it's great that all the school districts are kind of adopting this because I do think it that's important.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_03]: It has to be, I mean, the adults need to, we should the bed, you know, like we did not look downstream and it came out of nowhere.

[SPEAKER_03]: It came out of nowhere.

[SPEAKER_03]: And what do we know?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it was fun for us.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what Facebook I can [SPEAKER_03]: I know it's so fun.

[SPEAKER_03]: High school boyfriend.

[SPEAKER_03]: I knew it.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's so fun.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's so fun.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's so fun.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's so fun with your mom.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know, totally.

[SPEAKER_04]: See, what I wasn't anticipating.

[SPEAKER_04]: So we were all in alignment with kind of the elementary school parents that we were close with, that we had developed relationships with.

[SPEAKER_04]: And the close and the parents that we were closest with, we were kind of like on this a similar page in regards to technology and phones.

[SPEAKER_04]: And you know, and then in fifth grade, some of the moms ended up buying their kids' phones.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, what?

[SPEAKER_04]: And then we were kind of a strange from them.

[SPEAKER_04]: They broke it, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: But whatever, we were able to like, you know, then they go to middle school in the city where I live, then they go to middle school and it's all new kids.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't know any of these families.

[SPEAKER_04]: So for me to like reach out to these parents that I still barely know in seventh grade and be like, hey, can we get together and discuss your cell phone policies?

[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, I don't think I'm ever gonna do that.

[SPEAKER_04]: But that's what should happen.

[SPEAKER_04]: but I don't think I'm going to do that.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like in these kids have way more access than my kid does.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I'll tell you from working with parents of teenagers one on one and in my membership and in the classes that I do, everybody is struggling and there's the holdouts who are working hard and the ones that the holdouts that are having the most success are the ones that not only have the like very clear limits [SPEAKER_03]: and are really standing firm in those limits.

[SPEAKER_03]: But also are normalizing conversations are validating.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know this sucks and you hate me right now and it is really hard to hold this limit.

[SPEAKER_03]: The other alternative is being really firm on your limits and creating a cat and mouse game.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, like I remember I told this story about when Ian was younger, my son Ian, and there was like this box of cookies on the counter.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we had eaten many.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, okay, I'm putting these on top of the refrigerator.

[SPEAKER_03]: And Ian looked at me and he was like, Mom, I can tell like, I'm up there and get those cookies.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I said, oh, no, I know that you can.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's not why I'm putting them up there.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm putting them up there so they're out of sight.

[SPEAKER_03]: So we're not thinking about them.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not about, can I challenge you to still get them?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just about, let's put them away because we just had a whole bunch.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's the energy that I really worked, you know, even with my mistakes, with my kids and Ian easier than Rowan, let's check screen time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: And oftentimes my screen time was worse than his sometimes he'd be like, Oh, my God.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm at like six and a half hours.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, Oh, how does that feel?

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and he'd say like feels kind of gross.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, okay, so what might you do to help yourself, you know.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's kind of what I want is to develop critical thinking.

[SPEAKER_03]: I want to create a space that is developing his critical thinking, which is different than the parents who are like, oh, well, they're gonna have to figure it out.

[SPEAKER_03]: So why bother with limits?

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's what I'm talking about.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that that's lazy on the part of the parents because it is hard to hold the battery and follow things.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that is not what I'm talking about.

[SPEAKER_03]: limits and with really meaningful conversation, not lectures, but I want them to have the information while also understanding that having the information doesn't mean that we don't do the things, otherwise nobody would drink or try drugs or smoke or any of those things.

[SPEAKER_03]: But it is like, what are you trying out of mind going to do with this information and [SPEAKER_03]: They're on their own journeys with a variety of things, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: But it's that critical, I just keep coming at them.

[SPEAKER_03]: I want to talk harm reduction.

[SPEAKER_03]: I want to talk critical thinking.

[SPEAKER_03]: I share my own struggles as a model for what it looks like.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they are doing okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're not not [SPEAKER_03]: making bad choices or looking for novelty, but they're versus me at their age where I was like kind of wild and crazy and not thinking about like, oh, maybe there's a reason why I'm so [SPEAKER_03]: promiscuous in college.

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe I need to talk to somebody about this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it's not just me being like whatever, you know, like yeah, this whole thing where I was like the boys do it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Why can't I?

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I just wanted a boy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Such a feminist.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I really just wanted a boyfriend and all like a guy where was one night's dance.

[SPEAKER_03]: So there you go.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, God.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's out in the open.

[SPEAKER_03]: Really trusting the queer family podcast to hold my secrets.

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[SPEAKER_06]: Love is love.

[SPEAKER_04]: No, but it's interesting.

[SPEAKER_04]: What you're saying, it makes so much perfect sense.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I also come to parenting with that.

[SPEAKER_04]: I do that with so many things.

[SPEAKER_04]: I do that when we talk about family.

[SPEAKER_04]: I do that when we talk about religion, because I'm raising them without religion.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I bring the critical thinking to so many aspects of how I'm parenting, but I have not.

[SPEAKER_04]: When it comes to technology and screens, no, I haven't, like I haven't, that's like really kind of eye opening for me, like sitting down and okay, let's look, let's look at your screens and then and then let's critically talk through this.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, no, I have not done that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I do that with practically everything else.

[SPEAKER_03]: And critically talk through it is, [SPEAKER_03]: you asking questions.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not you delivering critical thinking.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's really you drawing forth and creating an environment where critical thinking can come to life.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what and how questions.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's what and how questions just everybody.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not why.

[SPEAKER_03]: So throw why out.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not yes or no questions.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's really important to that we leave our agenda at the door, but we really get to practice neutral neutral nonjudgment.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, otherwise they're sniffing us out and they're like, okay, this is a trap and what do you want me to say?

[SPEAKER_03]: How can I get out of this conversation?

[SPEAKER_04]: All right, I'm realizing I have to have some sit-downs with my kids, both kids, because actually, I think it's going to be tougher with my blood by son than my daughter can put it down so far.

[SPEAKER_04]: And you know, she walks away right so far.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's very early.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's early days.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I don't mean to say that as like an alarmist because I'm not into that kind of support.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but that's the thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's why when parents are like, oh, but they're good kids.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're not doing anything weird.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, no, they still, you still need to have everything locked down because eventually they are going to get exposed to this that or the other or have this idea or this thought.

[SPEAKER_03]: And if they can slide into, you know, [SPEAKER_03]: the darkness of the tool, because it's really a tool, you don't want to have to backtrack because that's really hard.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's really hard.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's because I feel like I already with my seven-year-old, I have to backtrack from what you're telling me right now.

[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, because we do, we have limits on screens.

[SPEAKER_04]: He doesn't get the iPad during the school week, but he gets it on the weekends and he has supposed to have a two-hour limit on the weekends.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right, each, but two hours each day said, yeah, Saturday and Sunday, which got real relaxed over the summer.

[SPEAKER_04]: Of course.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: Real relaxed and then cancer has actually thrown a wrench in and he's got way more than before.

[SPEAKER_04]: And he's a attorney into a little kind of terror about it.

[SPEAKER_04]: He doesn't have YouTube, but he finds ways to find the shows.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like because they have the happy kids app and the which shows you all the stuff that's on YouTube drives me crazy.

[SPEAKER_04]: but all we've done so far is like, nope, you can't, nope, that's not, you're not allowed, that's not, you're not allowed to watch that.

[SPEAKER_04]: But why?

[SPEAKER_04]: Why?

[SPEAKER_03]: Because we said so, you know, we're not, but I don't know what to say, honestly like, well, one of the rules too in this book, because there's been some really good books written like the interest generation got so much prize.

[SPEAKER_03]: Which I honestly did not read cover to cover, but I listened to most of it and it just felt like so much information.

[SPEAKER_03]: It didn't feel like a lot of, and maybe I just didn't get to the section, like practical, okay, great.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm terrified now.

[SPEAKER_03]: What am I supposed to do?

[SPEAKER_03]: And she is telling you exactly what to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: including like there's got to be they have to ask permission to add an app.

[SPEAKER_03]: Any apps we have that we have that and we have that settings and Jamie I think this highlights you're doing the things and it's hard we're trying it's so fucking hard.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's what gets in the way for a lot of parents is it's like, it's so hard, I must be doing it wrong or I shouldn't be so hard-core about it.

[SPEAKER_03]: But with this, you should.

[SPEAKER_03]: You would not let your kid start driving.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you wouldn't be like, a lot of Coke is too much, but you're let's dabble, you know?

[SPEAKER_03]: You're so energetic.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just going to put it over here, don't touch it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to get mad at you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You'll get this much of it today.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: You only get one line today and two on the weekends.

[SPEAKER_03]: Let's see what we can, oh my god, whoo yeah, like when you use that analogy, that's a real and we don't want to talk about it like that like there are actual rehabilitation centers for people who have tech addiction and it's like this weird little thing that we're dancing around like parents will say oh god my kids totally addicted to their phone [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: And yet, okay, they're not doing that thing about it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, problematic.

[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I say that as one of those parents, I mean, my kids are, and did come to me a couple of years ago and he's like, oh, God, mom, I watched this TED talk.

[SPEAKER_03]: You've got to watch it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it was this guy.

[SPEAKER_03]: He had a hundred little circles.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he's like, okay, each of these circles represents one year of your life if you were to live 200.

[SPEAKER_03]: and he talked about like 18 year olds today, so this was like 2023, and the way that they use technology, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: So this is the amount of years you will spend a sleep in your life as an average person, average 18 year old over the course of time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Here's the amount of time you'll spend eating, I can't remember the other things.

[SPEAKER_03]: Here's the amount of time you're gonna spend looking at your phone.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is, it's like 30 years or something unreal and I will get you that link and you should put it in the show notes because it is a very powerful time talk and yeah and was like, oh my god, I'm going to get it like he was so appalled and then he went to college and I went and I was visiting and him and his.

[SPEAKER_03]: roommate where I was like, so, you know, how's the screen time?

[SPEAKER_03]: He's any kind of role-designed.

[SPEAKER_03]: I said, well, what about that TED Talk?

[SPEAKER_03]: He's like, yeah, that TED Talk is really annoying because it is in my mind.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's in my mind, while I'm overusing my phone, you know, so.

[SPEAKER_04]: did a lot of good.

[SPEAKER_04]: It did a lot of good.

[SPEAKER_03]: But you know, it's a little brainworm or whatever they call it.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is in there.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I do believe that he has an awareness that will serve him when he's ready.

[SPEAKER_03]: He feels the tension.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what we want.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, [SPEAKER_03]: If nothing else, I want my kids to feel the tension of like, oh, good.

[SPEAKER_03]: I've been on.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm still looking at this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, an hour of cat videos.

[SPEAKER_03]: I got to put this down, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Versus just Lala.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my God.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, so what should what do we do?

[SPEAKER_04]: What do we do?

[SPEAKER_04]: What are like some of these pillars get this book?

[SPEAKER_04]: Get the book, everybody get the book.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't have such free publicity for this girl.

[SPEAKER_03]: Who I've not interviewed, but it's worth it.

[SPEAKER_04]: But like, I can thinking about when my kid is like, no, you can't have YouTube.

[SPEAKER_04]: But why?

[SPEAKER_04]: But why?

[SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't, like, I don't know what else to say.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how to explain why to my seven-year-old.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're asking why because it's like they're back to the corner and I think the best thing that you can do instead of answering the why is validating like it's you really like this thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's really fun to watch and you love these shows.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they're entertaining.

[SPEAKER_03]: It makes sense that you want to spend all day watching these things.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's really important that you have real life experiences, real life experiences are what are actually [SPEAKER_03]: supporting your brain development, which they're like, you know, that's when we, but that's when we turn into the Charlie Brown adult as well.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: As soon as we move from validation to actually bestowing our wisdom about the research, that's when we turn into Charlie Brown adults.

[SPEAKER_03]: So don't think that you need to spend a lot of time there because it doesn't land.

[SPEAKER_03]: Really spend your time in the validation and just a broken record.

[SPEAKER_03]: My job is to protect your health and well-being.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I do say that a lot.

[SPEAKER_04]: And he's like, but I can tell, you know, I know, I'm so glad that you're healthy.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know it sucks.

[SPEAKER_03]: I have a problem with this too.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that coupled with what are the real life experiences that your kiddos are having?

[SPEAKER_03]: And what can you add in, you know, and even as I say that, if you have listeners with 14, 15, 16 year olds that are already [SPEAKER_03]: in the massive screen misuse, I see you.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know, you know, for you, it's really about, like, we need, because these are privilege.

[SPEAKER_03]: These are not a right.

[SPEAKER_03]: These are not a right.

[SPEAKER_03]: We do, you do not have to buy your kids, iPads, phones.

[SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to do it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a privilege.

[SPEAKER_03]: And with privilege, [SPEAKER_03]: comes responsibility and responsibility isn't will you clean up your room and you can have some more screen time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Responsibility is you've got to be willing to have conversations about limits.

[SPEAKER_03]: You have to be willing to follow the rules and I'm a positive discipline person and we are all about collaboration.

[SPEAKER_03]: We are not about punishment or rewards.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're about [SPEAKER_03]: You know, natural consequences that connect with whatever the mistake was, but with this, just like with drugs and alcohol, like you've got to have hard rules and there are places that are not up for negotiation collaboration.

[SPEAKER_03]: Inside of those things, you can say, you know, for our family, you know, what is what does healthy screen time look like in our family?

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I want this app, but for it's like hard to tell me about that.

[SPEAKER_03]: What is this app?

[SPEAKER_03]: Teach me, why do you want it?

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and does it fit inside of our family values around screen time and health and while being?

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, we have some limits.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, he can't get anything above his age limit, which drives him crazy, but that's, we've never wavered on that.

[SPEAKER_04]: So like, it's just, you're not holding up.

[SPEAKER_03]: We love you and it's okay for you to be mad at us.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like that's the other thing too.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's okay for you to be pissed about this.

[SPEAKER_04]: Totally.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we monitor whatever apps like we have to approve it.

[SPEAKER_04]: So that's a thing for both of them.

[SPEAKER_04]: Great.

[SPEAKER_04]: They can't make purchases obviously.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like absolutely not.

[SPEAKER_04]: No purchases are allowed to be made on these devices.

[SPEAKER_04]: But then he like he felt he got the Amazon app.

[SPEAKER_04]: his sister taught him how to go in and make lists of things that they want.

[SPEAKER_04]: There's no card attached to it.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's not an account, but he has an Amazon app now with lists of all the things.

[SPEAKER_03]: And what a tool, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like if you're doing allowance, like okay, so [SPEAKER_03]: do the math.

[SPEAKER_03]: How much allowance each week do you need to save to, you know, like it can be a useful tool.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think Jamie, I think you're you are setting yourself up really well.

[SPEAKER_03]: Your family up really well with this thing that's a nightmare.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's just like that messiness piece.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's the work for parents is yes, the limits.

[SPEAKER_03]: but it's also our own work of being with the discouragement the disappointment, the pushback, like keeping it together.

[SPEAKER_03]: So annoying.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, as our kids are like, wait, what?

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, hopefully 10 years from now, it's a different conversation.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're the guinea pigs, and then they're gonna be like, oh, we have this now to protect your children.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, like, but we're the guinea pigs, but it's funny.

[SPEAKER_04]: So you're saying I'm doing a good job here.

[SPEAKER_04]: Let me throw the wrench and breathe.

[SPEAKER_03]: Tell me the truth.

[SPEAKER_03]: What's really going on over there?

[SPEAKER_04]: When it comes to the personal devices, like iPad or phone, they have limits, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: But TV is a whole other thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: So like, do you know what I heard about TV recently?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like back in the old days, like the old old days, like the cave mandates, cave people days.

[SPEAKER_03]: What did they do in the evening?

[SPEAKER_03]: They sat around the fire and they told stories.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they entertained each other with stories.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so when I think about TV, it's like, well, there's no fire, but man, there's some really good storytelling.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're just like, this is what it is.

[SPEAKER_04]: There it is, I like that case here, like that.

[SPEAKER_04]: But like, this is the thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: So he can't have his iPad during school days, but once he finishes the tasks he has to do when he comes home, little homework in the bath and the things that have to get done, he's allowed to turn the TV on.

[SPEAKER_04]: So it's not like my kid is screen free during the week.

[SPEAKER_04]: He turns that TV on, like it says, job.

[SPEAKER_04]: But I feel that now you can correct me here.

[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like it's, I know he's watching.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's an actual TV show.

[SPEAKER_04]: He's not watching scrolling and watching YouTube or play video games.

[SPEAKER_04]: He's only allowed to watch Netflix or Prime or Disney, you know.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so it's got to be like a set show, you know.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I know exactly what he's watching because it's in the living room, which is where I am.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, so yeah, we're doing a good job with the devices, but the screens are happening.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think the devices are the personal devices are the problematic piece, are the most problematic piece.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, if with TV, if it's like, oh, geez, there wasn't a watch and like four hours of TV a day, well, yeah, that's then it's like, okay, so what are you going to do there?

[SPEAKER_03]: But it's even a bigger fuller picture, which is, what are the things they're doing outside of the house?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you're girl all over the city on the, I mean, granite, she's looking at her phone.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, then there's a conversation around how are you how is she staying safe?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like how is she staying aware of her, like it's a conversation about being aware of her surroundings versus looking at her screen.

[SPEAKER_03]: I got trained to run a program called the invitation to change which is for families with family members who are in active addiction, usually drug addiction or alcohol addiction.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so one of the things that I love [SPEAKER_03]: with addition, not subtraction.

[SPEAKER_03]: So that's a really interesting thing to hold.

[SPEAKER_03]: What can we add to our life?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like even TV, can you slide in games, board games, card games, what can you do instead of, which requires us to be engaged?

[SPEAKER_03]: Which is the hard part.

[SPEAKER_04]: Which we do as much as we can.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure you'll begin.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I like that addition rather than subtraction.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm realizing, you know, my daughter is like, we have the conversation all the time about being aware and it's New York City like girl, you got to be aware and she knows it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_04]: And there's all kinds of people on the street.

[SPEAKER_04]: So yes, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Then she's home and she's constantly up in the chat like texting, texting, text.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's like a constant.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't know how much I should limit that.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, at first we had strict limits and you had to turn it off at seven.

[SPEAKER_04]: And now we let it go all the way until she heads into bed, you know, like, all right, we've gotten really relaxed.

[SPEAKER_03]: And another one of the rules, again, I love this lady.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's a rule that kind of we tried to play in our house too that we leaned into is like what are the no phone instead of like you only get this much time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Look at it like when is the non time right so school is a non device time I'm sure you have a curfew a phone curfew like a time in the evening when it's like okay it's bedtime now so that I know it taking it out of their rooms.

[SPEAKER_04]: No, no phone in the bedroom.

[SPEAKER_04]: No device in the bedroom overnight.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[SPEAKER_04]: She has it during the day.

[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, she leaves it out here.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: She leaves it in the living room.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: And having a specific time where you know, at no phones at the table when we're sitting down to eat or, you know, no phones in the morning until a certain time.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think more or if we're going to sit down and watch a movie together as a family, you know, let's all put our phones away.

[SPEAKER_03]: And everybody, like it's family rules.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is just kid rules.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, I am a pro and check in my phone when we're watching those family movies.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we have to model.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's a reason that toddlers and preschoolers reach for devices.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's because they're looking around the room and every, that's what everyone else is doing.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so it makes sense that our kids get to an age and it's like awesome.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now it's my turn to do this thing that's clearly fun or whatever, because everybody else is doing it.

[SPEAKER_03]: So that was, that's another piece that I really like that I saw in this book [SPEAKER_03]: Dedicate like the no phone zone, you know, if you're in the, you know, if you're someone that uses a car, I remember as my kids got closer to driving age, it became really clear, like I want them to be comfortable, not checking their phone in the car, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Meanwhile, drive in the freeway, I mean, there's people around their phone all the time when they're driving the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because we have a question too.

[SPEAKER_03]: What, what am I saying?

[SPEAKER_03]: You're not missing anything.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, my kids both look at devices in the car.

[SPEAKER_04]: My son has this weird thing about the smell of the car, so he can't get in the car, he'll literally throw up.

[SPEAKER_04]: Unless he's looking at a screen.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's really annoying.

[SPEAKER_04]: So anyway, that's like an issue.

[SPEAKER_04]: He's always on a device in the car.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: But we're not in the car very often.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And maybe you have a box of books in the car.

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe you look for alternatives, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, they're going to find something better.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and that's I think that's, we have to be creative because I'm like, let's buy a new car because our son, because we need to get him off the iPad in the car.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we need a new smell.

[SPEAKER_04]: Our car smells.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, god, the things.

[SPEAKER_04]: But so my takeaways here.

[SPEAKER_04]: Here's what I have.

[SPEAKER_04]: Here's my takeaway.

[SPEAKER_04]: No phone zones, which I will say we kind of, we do that, like with dinner and we have that.

[SPEAKER_04]: But I think we need to do more.

[SPEAKER_04]: communicating with other parents, which is this is a big takeaway from me.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like I have to figure out ways to do better at trying to get the other parents onto the same page.

[SPEAKER_03]: They want to be, I think that we get to go into that remembering like ultimately everybody is struggling with this.

[SPEAKER_03]: So go into it thinking not that you're going to have to strong arm people, but instead that people are going to be like, oh my god, thank god somebody's rallying the troops here because this is [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and use the school as a resource too.

[SPEAKER_04]: I find parents to be a little bit like, they want to talk about this and they are worried and they are scared and oh my god, and oh my god.

[SPEAKER_04]: But when it comes time to actually like make the change.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, they have to look at the monster they've created.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: A lot of them are just like, I don't want to say they're lazy, but [SPEAKER_04]: They don't want to do the work or they don't want to do the work or they don't have time to do the work or they can't you know so there's that so I have to communicate better with parents and the whole sitting down with my kids and using critical thinking around devices and screens and I'm going to use what you said case we're going to we're going to start like all looking at our screen time on the device and comparing yeah and my son is going to be late.

[SPEAKER_04]: I have less than I'll live here and it's going to be really annoying and I'm going to have the most obviously.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you are.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so you're going to get to say, like, I got to figure out how to help myself.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like that's the other thing I can't handle, especially teenagers, like live out loud.

[SPEAKER_03]: meaning, you know, I'm really struggling with this thing, and this is how I'm helping myself, and not to make it like, welcome to my TED Talk, but just naturally and organically, like, we need our kids to see that this is ongoing, like, as human beings, we get to be self-reflective, we get to pivot, we get to help ourselves.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not, you become an adult, and you no longer have [SPEAKER_04]: And all of this, all of this is all how I parent, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: But I'm realizing, like, I have this aspect of it, slide a bit.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, why haven't I bridged it over into this land?

[SPEAKER_04]: Everything else, you know, I do.

[SPEAKER_04]: I do a model this, I model working through stuff, but not when it comes to phone.

[SPEAKER_04]: I just, I have been relaxed.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm not saying I'm relaxed about screens.

[SPEAKER_04]: I've just been not using the things I know to be true.

[SPEAKER_04]: about how I want a parent.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how to explain what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_03]: I wonder if it's that we are Gen X parents.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think you're Gen X or Gen X or Gen X.

I am.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a good job.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we and it's we didn't have experience being a kid.

[SPEAKER_03]: with these screens.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're kind of the first round of parents that are really in it, and we don't have any models.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's just kind of been like a small flame that has caught wildfire and now we're like, oh God, what are we doing?

[SPEAKER_04]: What do we do?

[SPEAKER_04]: And we don't have, there is no model.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's no model.

[SPEAKER_04]: We are the model.

[SPEAKER_03]: We are the model.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we fucked it up.

[SPEAKER_03]: Do our credit like we fucked it up because of the developers who knew exactly what they were doing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, watching any documentary about, you know, social media and screens, and they, I mean, they're apologetic.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like sorry, sorry that we hired.

[SPEAKER_03]: Take it out.

[SPEAKER_03]: I would psychologist to design these things to keep fucked up.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's really fucked up.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's really messed up.

[SPEAKER_04]: But all of this, I'm getting great, like I have so many ideas and plans, and we'll see how many I actually implement, we'll see, you know, when push comes to show in life is life.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'll come back and I'll be like, with my checklist.

[SPEAKER_03]: How did you do?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, judge you.

[SPEAKER_04]: One other thing that I do, and then I want to wrap this up, because I know you have a life to get to.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my gosh, I get to do two like three hours.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know I can do this for her.

[SPEAKER_04]: We monitor, we have an app called Bark that we monitor.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we monitor everything she does.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we have it at the highest strictest setting.

[SPEAKER_04]: So it alerts us when people say, like, I'm dead, like joking, medical, you know, like we get all kinds of alerts, ridiculous, but we do that.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm finding that other parents don't, which I'm shocked at.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so I was thinking maybe I shouldn't be because it's like I'm reading her.

[SPEAKER_04]: I read everything.

[SPEAKER_03]: We read everything.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, she knows that it's monitored, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: She knows when you look at it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think that there will definitely be a time probably sooner than you want.

[SPEAKER_03]: Where you're going to have to loosen.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're going to have to dial that.

[SPEAKER_03]: down a little bit more because I think that adolescence, middle-aged adolescence, do deserve some privacy.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think 11-year-olds do.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, when you want someone to say you're doing great, you're doing great.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay, good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Cheers.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because it's a safety thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think I don't think it's okay for you to be like, oh, I'm gonna read all your conversations with your friends.

[SPEAKER_03]: But, and this is what I said to my daughter, like, when you become a bad after school special, I'm heading in to the phone to see what the hell is going on.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I had to read, read a just and say, I mean, like a Netflix limited series, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: She's like after school special, which is after school special.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but the boy in the bubble, come on.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that it's a slippery slope, as far as people are reading their kids' texts.

[SPEAKER_03]: But also, it can save a life.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, so it's hard.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't have a hard rule for that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Same with tracking, like tracking our kids, but you've got an 11 year old on the subway, so please track her.

[SPEAKER_04]: We check the crap out of her.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: As soon as she leaves the house, both me and Anna are like, okay, she's on 28th Street.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, she, you know.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I have clients with college kids and they're looking at their college kids locations.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_03]: And when Ian went to school, I was like, okay, what do I got to do to make sure that you respond to me as quick as possible?

[SPEAKER_03]: And he was like, well, you need to snap, chat me.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, oh.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so he's the only person that I snapchat with.

[SPEAKER_03]: And sure enough, he responds really quick.

[SPEAKER_03]: And to start, I could see his location.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, oh, where's he now?

[SPEAKER_03]: Where's he now?

[SPEAKER_03]: And I realized for me, it's too distracting.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's too distracting.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not worried.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know he's going to class.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know he's living his life.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know he's doing his things.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know he's getting into a appropriate amount of mischief.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I don't need...

[SPEAKER_03]: to another thing that actually.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: So this is why I like that we have bark the the monitoring app because I don't have I don't have to go in and read the conversation.

[SPEAKER_04]: I only I get the alert.

[SPEAKER_04]: I look and see and it's usually they only include just like [SPEAKER_04]: you know, like three texts like it in as a from a part of a conversation.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: The only include like the text that is alarming quote unquote and then the one above it and the one below it.

[SPEAKER_07]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I go in, I check it and I usually it's usually benign and then I let it be.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't go and read like all of the conversations.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think work is a great service.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I know that they have bark phones.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that's what our original plan was, but she was like, [SPEAKER_03]: I found.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, I want the $1,000 phone.

[SPEAKER_03]: Come on.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then we say, yes, why are we saying yes?

[SPEAKER_03]: a constant dollar phone that they're just like for wait.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, because because the phone companies give you a deal, we got a deal.

[SPEAKER_03]: We have a deal.

[SPEAKER_03]: We have a deal.

[SPEAKER_03]: The illusion of a deal.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's the two for one.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we were like, well, let's just do it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then they were these other parents who had gotten the bark phone because we had said, we were going to do it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then they were like, wait, we got the bark.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we were like, sorry.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's so many basic phones that look just like an iPhone, just like a smartphone, but it's, I just think it's so much harder to figure out how to dial back a fully loaded phone than to build from a basic phone.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're already, you're so dead that whole song.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're already in it, and they don't have internet.

[SPEAKER_04]: But we were talking about possibly giving her the internet on her phone, because everybody else has it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And she can't look things up.

[SPEAKER_04]: So you literally can't look things up.

[SPEAKER_04]: Which is kind of problematic a little bit.

[SPEAKER_03]: She'd be like, here, this is called the Encyclopedia Britannica.

[SPEAKER_03]: I did.

[SPEAKER_04]: I did.

[SPEAKER_04]: I bought the newest edition, and I was like, here you go.

[SPEAKER_04]: I did.

[SPEAKER_03]: She said that.

[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're so mean.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it's also, but it's, they're outdated.

[SPEAKER_04]: And cyclopedes are outdated.

[SPEAKER_03]: We don't really.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're, it's like, we'll be the botanical.

[SPEAKER_03]: Google.

[SPEAKER_03]: We know that.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's going to have to get the internet eventually.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's still not going to get YouTube though.

[SPEAKER_04]: Not doing it.

[SPEAKER_04]: YouTube is a cesspool of evil.

[SPEAKER_04]: I hate you.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean.

[SPEAKER_03]: If it wasn't for YouTube, my daughter would not know how to put on makeup.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's for sure.

[SPEAKER_04]: Pinterest is basically social media, which I didn't realize.

[SPEAKER_04]: So she was using Pinterest and then I was like, are you scrolling right now?

[SPEAKER_04]: You scroll on Pinterest.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's like social media.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I had a dial back.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so sucked into Instagram and Facebook that I post to TikTok, but I don't get on TikTok because I'm scared.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because I know me, like I know, I know what will happen if I get on there.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's interesting, because TikTok is not a social media.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is, they're not communicating through TikTok.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're just getting sucked in and time-wasting through TikTok.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's the story of my life.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're struggling with it too.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so I think that's another takeaway is we've got to look at ourselves.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I understand.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's the number one takeaway.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like look at yourself and then have those conversations normalize that we're talking about.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just like we talk about how we're feeling in our body and like physical health and and how we eat and how your family was made and how you have a donor like exactly same normalize that this is a thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: We gotta talk about it and this is a privilege because people are like, well kids are so entitled yeah when you're given privilege without any responsibility that leads to entitlement it's not a kid problem it's a.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a it's an offering of privilege without holding any kind of responsibility with it is and now with that's not their fault.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then getting on the same page with other parents.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's key because you can't do it.

[SPEAKER_04]: You can't do it if they're not doing it too.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like the kids go crazy in saying, I need these other parents to be on the same page as me.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you do and you don't need them to be on the same page as you to handle this in your own family.

[SPEAKER_03]: I just makes it, it just makes it.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just the only way that this is going to change is if a generation of parents interrupts.

[SPEAKER_03]: what has come before.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh God, so many things to think about Casey, this has been amazing and beautiful.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I have to go get that book.

[SPEAKER_04]: And all the links are gonna be in the show notes and all the things, oh my God, I feel like I have a lot of work to do.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I do a lot already and that's where we are.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's the state of this, shesnet.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, Casey, tell everybody, all the places they can find you and if they want to continue learning about technology because you're doing all the good work.

[SPEAKER_04]: So tell, tell everybody with it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, first caveat is I am not a tech expert, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: So there's a lot more than me.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, amazing people out there.

[SPEAKER_03]: And just being in relationship with our teens in the context of [SPEAKER_03]: So I have a website, bsproutable.com.

[SPEAKER_03]: When you add a slash teens, you get to my little section.

[SPEAKER_03]: On there, I do, I have a membership program where I work with parents of teenagers and it's a whole community and beautiful.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I love those or my VIPs.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love those parents.

[SPEAKER_03]: I work one on one with parents.

[SPEAKER_03]: You can find out more on the website.

[SPEAKER_03]: The podcast is there, but the podcast is also, wherever you're listening to this show, you can find joyful courage to search for joyful courage, podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm on Instagram at Joyful, underscore courage, trying not to watch a million videos.

[SPEAKER_03]: We've got a Facebook group, a free group on Facebook that's called Joyful Courage for Parents of Teens.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's a pretty decent sized group, but it hasn't crossed over into like people being assholes to each other.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's a really sweet community where parents are showing up and I show up there every once in a while.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the TikTok, [SPEAKER_04]: Again, I just like the TikTok everybody just go follow.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so follow me.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not so sad when I see I only have 80 followers.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's like what happened to going viral like I need that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I need to be making more money because of the cancer.

[SPEAKER_03]: So come on people.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, joy.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I feel in there.

[SPEAKER_04]: Everybody help this lady out because we need to fund the cancer meds.

[SPEAKER_03]: And if you want to reach out directly to me, you can.

[SPEAKER_03]: My email is kc at trifocurge.com.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I do.

[SPEAKER_03]: I [SPEAKER_03]: I love parents of teenagers mostly because I really want to take a stand for the teenagers because they're struggling and they need the adults to show up, you know, better for them and so that's really what my passion for this work is.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love it, everybody do all the things, do all the follows, and reach out if you want more from Casey, and I could talk to you for hours.

[SPEAKER_04]: This is so good.

[SPEAKER_04]: So much to talk about, so much.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, thank you, Casey.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're hanging there, hanging there with all the life that's life.

[SPEAKER_03]: You too, girl.

[SPEAKER_03]: You too.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: See you in the side of all of it as well.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm going to do some of the things we just I'm going to do it tonight.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to look at our screens at dinner, even though that's a no screen zone.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to look at we're going to be we're going to normalize being competitive about who has the least amount.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I will also plug one of my favorite positive discipline tools is family meetings and maybe I can maybe we can have another conversation about how to implement that because that's and comes in really special space for having conversations, you know about.

[SPEAKER_03]: screens and other things, you know, as a family.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I love that.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's the next one.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to have to have a lot of ally episodes I'm feeling.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm honored to be at the chosen ally today.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Everyone who is listening and really appreciate it.

[SPEAKER_03]: We love you.

[SPEAKER_04]: We love you here, Casey.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're welcome back anytime.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're the best.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're the bomb as kids don't say anyone.

[SPEAKER_04]: We say it.

[SPEAKER_04]: A special thank you once again to California cryo bank for being a sponsor of this episode.

[SPEAKER_04]: Use code queerfam25 for a free level 2 subscription to their donor catalog.

[SPEAKER_04]: And tune in next week for another amazing episode of queer family goodness.

[SPEAKER_04]: Whew, well folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And if you did enjoy it, feel free to listen to another or watch another.

[SPEAKER_04]: I have so many episodes for your listening or viewing pleasure.

[SPEAKER_04]: Just go pick one and enjoy.

[SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot.

[SPEAKER_04]: They're really good.

[SPEAKER_04]: And also, if you really do like this show, please, I know I say it all the time, but please do consider supporting the show on Patreon.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're just gonna go to patreon.com, slash the queer family podcast.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're gonna pick a tear, you're gonna join, and you're gonna get that bonus content.

[SPEAKER_04]: And you're also gonna get my love and adoration for the rest of my life.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love you all.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for tuning in, keep on tuning in.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I'll see you next time.