[SPEAKER_04]: This episode and the entire year's worth of episodes is proudly brought to you by California Cryobank.

[SPEAKER_04]: Use Code QueerFam25 for a free Level 2 subscription to their donor catalog.

[SPEAKER_04]: Let's go make those babies and then let's talk about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And my doing enough because I'm not saying like giving the time to other causes that like I do to our heart as well like I try share things when I see it about like trans rights and so on but it's not where I put like most of my time and like they're one of our most attack trends at the minute like as a community like because they're an easy target right now and it's like I [SPEAKER_01]: often think, oh god, I should maybe if I invested the time here, but we like queer people are expected to do everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we're just constantly fighting.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like I think what I try to say to people is it's okay to focus on one thing and put your energy into it and try fight for that because we have so many fights and there's so many different people fighting for these things that like if we don't win the little battles we're never going to win the big ones.

[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes it's okay to do that and then maybe when our children are finally recognized, we'll be able to put in the work to get other laws changed.

[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to the queer family podcast y'all, the show all about family, but with gay.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm your gay host Jamie and this, as you know, is the show that highlights, celebrates uplifts and normalizes the legit particular families in all of our fabulous identities.

[SPEAKER_04]: And oh, wait a second, did I mention this show as a word winning?

[SPEAKER_04]: You are listening to the proud winner of the 2025 Signal Award.

[SPEAKER_04]: In the parenting and child raising category, we got the listener's choice award, which is huge, and the silver award in that category.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, go us.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for tuning in.

[SPEAKER_04]: That will be added to my shelves of awards behind me that we that I that I try to have in the background of every video if you watch the videos.

[SPEAKER_04]: But what I love about this particular award, to be real, TBH as the kids don't say anymore, is that we have been recognized in the much broader category of just parenting in general as opposed to the niche, legit quack category, or the niche DEIA category.

[SPEAKER_04]: Not that I'm throwing shade on either of those, because I love an award in those categories as well, but it feels good to just be, [SPEAKER_04]: Recognized in just parenting, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like there's a little bit of normalization for that there in us the queer family podcast one in that category So take that non-clear family is just kidding.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love I love y'all too So anyway, that's fun and when they come in the mail they will be added to the shelves.

[SPEAKER_04]: So [SPEAKER_04]: All right, let's talk about the guests that are coming in because this is such a sweet sweet episode, Mark and Owen.

[SPEAKER_04]: They are two Irish dads from Ireland raising two little girls through surrogacy and these two I'll tell you what, these two are proof that clear family building is both an act of love and an act of what do I always say advocacy because they're dream to turn into parents became a mission actually to change Ireland's outdated surrogacy laws.

[SPEAKER_04]: which need to be changed.

[SPEAKER_04]: And along the way, they have created a home filled with intention, representation, and joy, and it's really, really sweet.

[SPEAKER_04]: These two guys are raising their by racial children with a lot of love and intention, and [SPEAKER_04]: My biggest takeaway here is sometimes I guess the most radical thing we can do is we LGBTQIA parents can do is parent out loud y'all and then make the system catch up and that's exactly what they're doing and I appreciate them for it and I appreciate them for their advocacy work and I appreciate them for their exposure.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, let's all keep parenting out loud, showing up and normalizing our beautifully intentional and gorgeous.

[SPEAKER_04]: Did I mention gorgeous families?

[SPEAKER_04]: All right.

[SPEAKER_04]: Let's roll the tape.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's a really sweet episode.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm excited.

[SPEAKER_04]: Sugar Warning.

[SPEAKER_04]: There is a mention of a miscarriage in this episode, so just be warned.

[SPEAKER_04]: Otherwise, let's enjoy this episode.

[SPEAKER_04]: Here we go.

[SPEAKER_04]: Helen, Bula, let's roll that tape ladies, here we go.

[SPEAKER_04]: Clear family, but good, love is love.

[SPEAKER_04]: Hi, I want to mark.

[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, how are you?

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm good at it, how are you?

[SPEAKER_03]: No complaints today anyway.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, good.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, you never know when you're in a parent, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, every day is a roller coaster.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, without further ado, I need to get your 30 second elevator pitch.

[SPEAKER_04]: So the listeners at home know who you are and why you're here talking to that queer, fam squad, are you ready?

[SPEAKER_04]: Go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, we are market-owned to dad's true surrogacy, to two wonderful daughters, Aria and Nala.

[SPEAKER_01]: We run a page two men in a surrogacy and do a lot of work with the Irish government on changing surrogacy laws over there because the laws are not an existent at the moment, so you can basically do whatever you want over there, changing that at the moment, but it's a bit restrictive, so we're working very hard to get them to make it inclusive of all families.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, there you go, we did it, you did it, you did it and you covered so much and I want to hear all about the basically sounds like the politics of surrogacy in Ireland.

[SPEAKER_04]: But before we do that, let's just go into your family building journey and did you do it here in the States or did you do it over in Ireland?

[SPEAKER_01]: We did it here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so we've been together and almost 11 years now.

[SPEAKER_01]: We moved over to New York like eight years ago, but I had this amazing opportunity to go to Cornell.

[SPEAKER_01]: I had a scholarship with my job mastercard, and they said, we'll send you over, we'll pay for your apartment, we'll pay for everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, yeah, yes, I know, but yeah, I'll come to you when I'm free apartment to New York.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'll try that for a year.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that was before it was terrible here.

[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, go for it again and I'll do it again and I'll do it again.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this was the thing was, we moved over, it was the best year of our lives because freeway and joy are studying in university.

[SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[SPEAKER_01]: We lived on Roosevelt Island because that's where Cornell Tech was.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a really unique experience as well because it's just not somewhere.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think people generally move to when they move to New York.

[SPEAKER_04]: No, not Roosevelt Island.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're correct.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of new people have been being to Roosevelt Island, didn't it?

[SPEAKER_04]: We actually looked at apartments on Roosevelt Island and decided against it because we were like no I don't think so this commute is gonna kill us.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's a beautiful island like there's it's a really safe place for a family to be But there is very little and there's no life.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's no kind of you know It's like great and safe as it's a for kids and there's very little traffic all of that kind of thing But for the adults, there's not really much to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: You have to leave the island, you know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's a good point good point So so you're here in New York and [SPEAKER_03]: We were always interested in being fathers, you know what I mean, it was something that was always on our radar.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so the actual idea of surrogacy felt like such a crazy pipe dream, you know, it was seem so difficult to seem so far away from us.

[SPEAKER_03]: But then we started looking into it and we kind of just were looking into the pros and the cons of how to do things and what not to do and what to do and blah, blah, blah.

[SPEAKER_03]: But then COVID came.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it gave us a lot of time to actually sit down and really focus on what we were doing and do the research and and start the process, I suppose.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because we were trying to be that like good traditional Irish family of like, get married first.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't kids before, man.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, crazy.

[SPEAKER_05]: You don't do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then we were like the pandemic hit, so we basically were like, oh, you know what?

[SPEAKER_01]: The wedding delayed, however long, you know, as it was pushed out like six, six months like every time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we were just like, you know what we can do with all this free time.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have sitting at home together, we can try planning for a child.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like we really hadn't planned it, so we didn't have like [SPEAKER_01]: a huge amount of money saved, like most couples would or anything like that, other than for the wedding we were going to travel.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he said, you know what, let's use that.

[SPEAKER_04]: So you took your allocated wedding funds towards your service journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we ended up doing an independent journey based on the cash flow.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we were just like we couldn't afford an agency if we tried to.

[SPEAKER_01]: Break that down because at the agency they is at all like a friend or they didn't let you do a piecemeal or from talking to friends and other gay dads across the internet and so on as you do like we started looking at the themes they all paid and we were just like it's just like intermancipal for us we just couldn't do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas what allowed us to happen by doing an independent journey was we were able to just take it step by step.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like we very much found a clinic first and we created our embryos.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that was like one chair a chunk of like 20 to 30 thousand and we were like okay pause.

[SPEAKER_04]: Did you get the egg donor through the clinic?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so you went to the clinic and they gave you kind of a book full of egg donors.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like it was like looking at a Tinder or so like you know it was looking through these profiles.

[SPEAKER_04]: You are not the first person on this show to say that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it was very special.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: So they're kind of what we were looking for was mainly it was medical history, you know, we we have things in our families that we don't want to link up with someone else who also has those things just to kind of just to kind of take the focus off of that area and hopefully there was nothing hereditary coming through or whatever another thing to think so basically like on time we get migraine so anyone who even mentioned like a headache was like gone yet like we're just not risking the silly things like that.

[SPEAKER_04]: See, that's the thing that when you have the choice to do your best to kind of weed out like migraines like stuff like that, of course, if we have the chance we're going to do it, but that's why yeah, but that's why I lovingly refer to this search as the search for the superhuman because sometimes we get a little like I got a little too crazy with like, yeah, I went.

[SPEAKER_03]: Where do you stop?

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of, you know, at the time, we were, it was, as you said, it was during the pandemic.

[SPEAKER_03]: So we were chatting to our friends in Ireland a lot about it and kind of describing the process.

[SPEAKER_03]: And some people were getting quite angry at this kind of going, are you looking for luck?

[SPEAKER_03]: So you're looking for only good luck.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not about the looks, boss.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is also one of these things where if you have something that, like, let's just, for example, you're not happy with your nose and you don't like the nose of someone, you're kind of going to, [SPEAKER_03]: you can't help but be irrational about it or you know and it's got those kind of things.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not a base that we're only going to look for a good looking person, but you're just trying to because you can, you're kind of getting to this space of where you're trying to kind of to plan and you can't obviously, but [SPEAKER_04]: Give them the best leg up, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, like I know, I'm super short.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't like being super short.

[SPEAKER_04]: So why wouldn't I choose a really tall donor, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_04]: Actually didn't do that after all.

[SPEAKER_04]: I was silly, and I was like, I don't want them to be so tall because I'm so short.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's dumb idea, though.

[SPEAKER_04]: I would recommend.

[SPEAKER_03]: You do you get into a weird-hand face?

[SPEAKER_01]: It is so funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't know, I don't even think we looked at height.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then we met her in person and she walked in.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she was like, a little taller than me with heels.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, oh, she's tall.

[SPEAKER_01]: The daughter is now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like 99%ile, like every time they get measured and they're like a photo of their cousins, but it's great because it's like, they love it, they don't notice anything and it's like, look, tell people are generally more successful as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm telling myself that's fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's true.

[SPEAKER_04]: Listen, our daughter was 99%ile.

[SPEAKER_04]: until like towered until and then third grade she like evened out.

[SPEAKER_04]: She was 50th percentile for quite a long time, 50, 60, and now she's headed back up.

[SPEAKER_04]: And my son is like, wasn't even, he was like [SPEAKER_01]: When people used to say, oh, you're going all against locks and so on, I used to just say back to them like, do you not like look for your partner to be good looking as well?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And your doctor actually finally enough was the person who told us was like, look, you're looking so much like education and how to know everything, which is half of them stuff down past on like looked pass on.

[SPEAKER_04]: and listen I went straight for looks first and I'm I'm not afraid to admit it for I was like first and foremost let's make sure you know like listen you know and we have had people say oh yeah you do have the perfect kids like like throwing shade at us because we were able to pick certain things but get out of here like you know if you went to anyone and said that you know how to pick what your charge should be you know they're gonna have to start [SPEAKER_03]: discriminating for one for a bit of a better description.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're gonna go and that's not all they want so I want to you know, and it's like So anyone who's putting that position is going to kind of feel That they they want what they feel is best, you know, and it's like and you see all these Those actually on Instagram now where they have like and I don't know how I've ended up on this side of Talker in Instagram [SPEAKER_01]: But like they have eight kids and they're like I still haven't had a boy or something and it's kind of thinking like if they have the choice obviously They would go boy now because they keep talking about it and everything and they'd have the same children to McDonald's for doing similar things [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the differences we have the choice and so we use the choice how how we best see fit and also of course I just have to put this out there.

[SPEAKER_04]: We want healthy For children above all, but it's fun to talk about this search and how and the things that we end up caring about that Once you have the kids you realize none of that matter They come out the little beings that they come out and you know [SPEAKER_03]: It's so strange actually, it's just that you mentioned that because our both our daughters were from embryos that were created at the same time and then so so there's to there's nearly there's 20 months between them and so but they couldn't be more different they literally couldn't be more interesting and here from the same batch so to speak that sounds that sounds weird, but it's not like a batch of pancakes, but you know, [SPEAKER_03]: from the same egg, yes, and not same egg, but like the same batch of eggs, the same, the same cycle.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, same cycle.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's really interesting.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that happens a lot with IVF and siblings.

[SPEAKER_04]: But okay, so taking it back, because you mentioned that you met her.

[SPEAKER_04]: So this is something that when we go the anonymous donor route, when we go to people who have two uteruses, you'd write, we don't, generally, it's not something that you don't get to meet this person.

[SPEAKER_04]: But I've spoken to many folks who have, [SPEAKER_04]: extra sperm and not a uterus who have who get to meet that egg donor which is like a special extra you love it loving thing and they get so special.

[SPEAKER_03]: We wanted her not not necessarily to be a part of our life but we wanted her to be known we we that was just something that we were very clear on from the start so a lot of the egg donors that we saw on their profiles and other didn't want to be known and we're like okay well that's it that might be a deal breaker for those [SPEAKER_01]: there is training me, there's all these other things.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you like truly look, you'll find someone.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we just kind of said, well, why don't we just remove that from the beginning?

[SPEAKER_01]: And no.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think just like I was very much aware of [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, like in my head specifically before hand, I thought like they're going to be missing a motor because people had said that like and so on and it's in the soup we live in it's hard to get though that we're raised on that right it's hard to get those thoughts out of our heads even though we know we're going to be excellent parents and we're going to be loving and you know it's hard to get those thoughts out of our heads.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, and now that we have the children and we're raising them on that, oh, there's literally no difference.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the thing is, I wanted them to know the two women who helped create them.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we obviously, now I surrogate, very close.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, very close.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I surrogate, she's a good friend.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then the egg don't know we had this like, so it's very funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: She had like this really like old school lawyer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Who was like, okay, so you can have her house phone number.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you can have a house phone number.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to see mules like I need more info than that and then me being like it's not stalkers, but like they just threw first image one of the search one of the images and I was like look I found her Instagram can you ask her can I follow her it's amazing [SPEAKER_01]: they were basically like, well, sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like she has no problem with that, so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I ended up like unfollowing and reconn it separately because I was like, I know people would look for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because people are just nosy as a child.

[SPEAKER_04]: People are so nosy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_04]: And they want to know and they'll do whatever.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I will show friends, pictures of the donor, if they can.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, we show friends.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're allowed to do that, but we're not allowed like put it on social media is the agreement we have.

[SPEAKER_04]: My point is like, they're still so nosy, even though I'm an open book and I will happily share it with you.

[SPEAKER_04]: They try to like get info like in stealth ways and I'm like, just ask, I have a podcast about this like, listen, like you could just ask me, you don't have to be stealth like just asking the question to your point of wanting to know, [SPEAKER_04]: have some sort of a relationship with the donors or at least know them in some capacity.

[SPEAKER_04]: I totally get that.

[SPEAKER_04]: I just want to delve a little bit deeper into the donor thing because we haven't done that so much this season and I think it's worth a conversation.

[SPEAKER_04]: When we started our journey, I didn't think it was going to matter.

[SPEAKER_04]: So done like I clearly didn't do my research.

[SPEAKER_04]: It does it's kind of matter, you know, but I was like, oh no, they're not going to miss a dad and I'm going to it's fine.

[SPEAKER_04]: Whatever.

[SPEAKER_04]: He's just this sperm donor.

[SPEAKER_04]: We almost even got like a closed ID donor, which they don't even have anymore, but when we were doing it, that was that was they had those at the banks.

[SPEAKER_04]: They don't have that anymore.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then we quickly realized, no, that was a bad idea.

[SPEAKER_04]: Let's go with the open ID.

[SPEAKER_04]: So we have the open ID.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then one of the donor sibling families reached out to me and was like, listen, and I guess because I have a podcast so they they found me and they knew, listen, we use your same donor and actually we personally know him.

[SPEAKER_04]: He's our friend.

[UNKNOWN]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: and he said that he would be totally open to being contacted by you all as well.

[SPEAKER_04]: So just extending that to you.

[SPEAKER_04]: So now I have an adult picture of him and I have the ability to reach out if I want.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I just keep asking my kids if they want it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that really has given me like so much peace of mind.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's very important.

[SPEAKER_04]: you know that they have that choice if they think it's nice and some people are wanted at all and you know to each your own but also you know just always think about the kids and and what they're going to need the most in life and but um now whenever my kids ask you know I'm always talking about the donor but whenever they ask pointed questions I say well you know we can ask [SPEAKER_04]: himself, do you want me to send an email?

[SPEAKER_04]: Do you want to write an email?

[SPEAKER_04]: No, and they're still not interested, but it's an option and that makes me so happy.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that option then takes away kind of the fascination, if you know what I mean, that they know the can, and they're like, well, they don't need to.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you don't let them, they're like, but I really want to, you know, so I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's the thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just so as you say.

[SPEAKER_01]: for Oz, our daughter, our oldest daughter, cause her donor, her donor, her donor, which is very funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's never met her, but she knows, like, that's how she was formed and so on.

[SPEAKER_03]: We have a picture of the donor with us.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because our eldest daughter has a, well, they both have a book of their people.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_03]: They're cousins of their own, but they also have their donor and their service.

[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: They're Orange's story, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for the donor, what I found really helpful is because it's not like, we're not friends with her per se.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, as we keep in contact, but it's more like happy birthday.

[SPEAKER_01]: Here's a picture of the girls on their birthdays, like happy holidays or like one thing I have asked her for and she said she would get back to me is like, she's from Nigeria.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like, hey, could you just give me a bit of info of like, where in Nigeria?

[SPEAKER_01]: I know she mentioned like they were part of like a cultural tribe, like what was that called, like all of these things that then I can like pass on She was born to make her parents.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: parents would go back there all the time so there's a lot of info about it and the way I kind of thought about it was we meet Irish people of the time Irish Americans who are like oh my dad's from Ireland and I'm like oh we're in Ireland and they're like I have no idea I just wanted them that's me if they spoke that's me right here [SPEAKER_01]: Which is fair you don't need to when I was like I just want him to be able to say you know our egg donors from Nigeria this part Like this is what I know about it and then if they want to know more info as you say when they're like 11 or 12 or older than that We can say you can just ask her like if you want to text her no problem if you want me to send an email no problem like whatever you want [SPEAKER_04]: I want to dig into the fact that they're half Nigerian as well and you too are Irish white guys.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I do want to dig into that too and how you're parenting around that and making sure it's a part I'm sure I'm imagining you're doing much work to make sure that all the cultures are celebrated and loved.

[SPEAKER_04]: But I don't want to get there yet because I want to first finish your [SPEAKER_04]: your whole journey to to make in the babies.

[SPEAKER_04]: I got you so sidetracked by the donor thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: You got your idea.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really created and I want to pause.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to say and that pauses more like we need to find a surrogate and our clinic could tell those what we needed for anyone who's ever found a surrogate like they are so specific on like what they want and they kind of said like look this is what we'll accept but this is like the unicorn like what you want.

[SPEAKER_01]: So someone who's like don't a surrogate see before so that they can help God you true especially if you're doing [SPEAKER_01]: someone who's finished their family, someone between this age range and I can't remember exactly the other side of your character even, you know, I think it was Terry Fireson but anyway, there was lots of criteria that they had to meet.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was a guy we found on YouTube slash men having baby slash kind of Facebook area that had told his story about an independent [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, I put up a post in one of these groups asking, like, hey, I'm starting to look for a circuit.

[SPEAKER_01]: What would you as gay dad's recommend?

[SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, I've done this if you want to reject and I instantly recognize him from the video we had watched that had made us realize we could do an independent journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I just said, look, I'd love a phone call because I already know about your journey, but I'd love just more info.

[SPEAKER_01]: So helpful.

[SPEAKER_01]: such a like mentor and guide and what does true like hey you go on to these groups here are some Facebook groups you can join you put up like some photos of yourself you tell them exactly the criteria clinics looking for and who you are so we did that and we got a lot of people reach out we did this is where I would get scared because you just don't know who who's reaching out right yes and and when you don't have legal help at this point you know like [SPEAKER_03]: It's funny Mark mentioned earlier on that, like, he's a bit of a stalker on the line or he has the ability.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of smooth.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's very easy to find out who's telling the truth and who's not set.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not shut being upfront about it or they are.

[SPEAKER_03]: You can easily find things about them in the past or whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: So basically, you can just search this place in the name after you have message you in the groups because most of them had said they had done a journey before and every single one of them would say I had no problems my journey was painless and so on and then you'd start going through the Facebook groups and be like, oh my god, they like do not speak to their IPs intended parents anymore like they don't have a relationship there and I'll broke down at the end of it like or like some of them actually had complications and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on [SPEAKER_01]: I have no problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like obviously, like no one's pregnancy is perfect.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like pregnancy is hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: You expect complications, but just tell me about them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't think if we're touching on complete honesty, then it's never going to work.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, we had actually, I think, like I ended up talking to like hundreds, possibly of people and I was just...

That's exhausting.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was exhausting and it was really hard and I think we were getting to the point of like, [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if we're going to find someone, and I then was looking through the pages one day, and this woman had commented on another woman's post-askin question saying, hey, I've just finished my second journey and probably do a third sometime in the future, here is my advice and so on, and she just, like the way she answered, seemed lovely, and I sent a message underneath her saying, I hope you [SPEAKER_01]: if she sees it she sees it if she wants to ignore it she can ignore it and it basically just said like hey we're a couple of years linked to our post looking and I don't even think I said oh you're considering another journey would love to chat to you without if you were open to it and so on and didn't respond.

[SPEAKER_01]: and just forgotten about it and it was like don't worry it's fine and we kept looking and kept doing the interviews and so on and then we were home for like that when I say home back in Ireland for like the holidays and I get this message being like oh my god I literally never I didn't even know I had message requests right [SPEAKER_01]: Just saw your message, would love to chat.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, do you want to hop on a FaceTime?

[SPEAKER_01]: And we hoped on a FaceTime, I think, the next day.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she was the most loving, caring, like, wonderful woman.

[SPEAKER_01]: Was like, oh, I had these complications, or I wish we had done this, or I had just so open about everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: We were like, kiss me.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was just like the way we knew, okay, this is someone we wouldn't want to go on this journey with.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know?

[SPEAKER_01]: And she said she wanted a relation to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's very fat down on that.

[SPEAKER_03]: She stood at most as she goes to Gavdon, the circuses before.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm kind of friends with the IPs and with the circusy kids.

[SPEAKER_03]: What about the boy?

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_03]: My third point, too, sir.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so she's kind of going, but I see them on Facebook or I get a message once a year just saying how they're doing or whatever.

[SPEAKER_03]: What I did to her previous ones were based in Europe, so was a little bit different as well.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's based in Texas, so it's still far away, but she was just like, but I'd love to have just a small relationship so that I can kind of just be able to see them kind of grow and see them kind of, it's something that would be successful in life or whatever it might be.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we were like, well, of course, like this is exactly what we want.

[SPEAKER_03]: We want someone who has a relationship, we want someone who will come visit, who will, or we will visit or we will.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she kept saying we all sped.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was really, that really stood out because we had had, as I said, going through all them, other people, like I remember, like one of the people we met with was like, hour bit, kept like collectively saying hour, and I was like, no, no, like no, where as she was just so on it and so lovely, and so her name's Haley, Haley, it's like all over our Facebook and Instagram and everything because basically like we ended up just becoming like best friends with her.

[SPEAKER_01]: just back in the summer so she came, she didn't do, and actually she traveled to her, she wanted to see the girls and spend some time, and she has two kids of her own, and they're like so wonderful, and we get on like it's so funny, because the first time she came, she brought her brother, and we got on with him, like I have some fire, and then the next time, because after she did our journey with Arya, she said, [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't think I want to do another journey with anyone else.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I know you want to do another journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're like, yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we went with Nala then, and her sister came that time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like, just we had the best time and we got on so well with the whole family.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we've met her mother and father and ever.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like so bright.

[SPEAKER_04]: So she came back to do the second baby as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she was just so amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we were so lucky with her.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just to give a little bit more details about boat journeys.

[SPEAKER_01]: For boat journeys, we implanted two embryos.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for our first journey, we actually were pregnant with twins till 17 weeks and we all start boy.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was really hard, but we kind of like had this kind of, um, I guess, like, joy in that the doctor at Halleux, you know, vanishing trints in drum.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, the other twin will, like, I guess, and consume or absorb them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we were like, oh, well, do you know what they'll always be part of each other?

[SPEAKER_01]: What actually happened in reality was because it was like he was like a little like being I guess so he ended up being born with Arya which we had not just happened planned on and so it was like very shocking being in the hospital in that happening but [SPEAKER_01]: The joy that came from it afterwards was we now have like his ashes and it's so much more real and we named him and So we at Shane was our son and she so we have like his ashes with a picture of the four of us in the hospital when she was first born and he was there and like it was So I won't say that the experience at the time was lovely because we ended up having to go back to the hospital and get feedback and everything like that [SPEAKER_01]: However, the aftermath of having him in the house and so on and because I think like when you lose a child like or have any type of miscarriage or fertility problems and so on, sometimes especially depending on the time it can feel like not real or like a like you lost a dream more so than a child kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas this became very real for us where we got to hell [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to say it in early because it's like 17 weeks for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is like, I guess, what they've felt like because we had been through the checks that are like your child's most likely to survive at this point now, but it's still, yeah, relatively.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: We wouldn't have known orders then because the 20 weeks scan was our next scan.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we only found out because I was like, you know, what would be fun for my birthday?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's doing a private scan with an ID scan.

[SPEAKER_00]: Which we laugh at.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: But look, these things happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if we would have our second daughter had we had twins the first time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[SPEAKER_01]: So quickly in be the same because everything like I always think like we could have him planted or like transferred her at a different time and then it might have taken So you just don't know or Haley might have been available and all would have been different.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it all works out the way I guess like what's meant to happen and we have our second daughter Nala as well Who again we implanted to but just the other embryo never took which felt very different it didn't feel much like a loss I guess [SPEAKER_01]: it just felt like, oh, it didn't take.

[SPEAKER_01]: And funny enough with Nala, she was always like they said like she is smaller than she should be throughout the pregnancy because they were like it like it's actually tracking as if she didn't attach for a few days.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like she almost swam around and was like, oh, now I'm ready.

[SPEAKER_01]: That which is very much pushy.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's as a person and you can describe her first analogy better.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it worked out great.

[SPEAKER_01]: So look, we have two beautiful daughters at tree and 19 months now, and it's what it was meant to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess we have said four, but we'll see if we're...

Yeah, we always have the number of people on board.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're Irish, you know, we got to have big family.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like, yeah, let's have four kids.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now we're like, oh, I'm not so sure that it's like too much.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's quite a lot.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but, you know, you see, you'll see, you'll see, you'll see if it is a nice, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is the thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: But now that RL this area is started in 3K, so she's in school for most of the day.

[SPEAKER_03]: So now it's like, oh, so this is what it's like to have nap times again because she didn't nap for the longest time.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like, oh, so actually maybe maybe we could go again.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Just remember the naps and completely though, and then they're just up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're there, but then hopefully, by the time another one would come, if we were to do that, they might both be in Tricate.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we at least have a certain period of the day that you like only have the newborn or however.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they're going to get to school age and that does get easier.

[SPEAKER_04]: It gets easier.

[SPEAKER_03]: in different ways.

[SPEAKER_03]: I've heard it so many times and it gets easier, but it gets also more difficult because you're dealing with a personality.

[SPEAKER_03]: You have that little bit of a tiny break during the day, which is nice.

[SPEAKER_04]: I remember an app time.

[SPEAKER_04]: I used to get so much down during that time.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god, I loved an app time.

[SPEAKER_04]: I loved it so much.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't get it anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: I will be right back.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, now come on.

[SPEAKER_04]: You don't think I'd let a whole episode go by without mentioning sperm and my promo code with California Cryobank.

[SPEAKER_04]: Not only does California Cryobank have a very stringent screening process in diverse donor selection that will help you find the ideal sperm donor.

[SPEAKER_04]: Live it to QualFokes can also take advantage of benefits, like free vile transfer between partners, and a personalized letter if needed for second parent adoption.

[SPEAKER_04]: Y'all, they are thinking about us.

[SPEAKER_04]: They also offer a vile buyback opportunity, a digital donor, keep sake of your donors information for you and your family to keep, which I pull out regularly to talk with my children about their donor.

[SPEAKER_04]: They offer access to [SPEAKER_04]: Financing free newborn stem cell preservation, which includes cord blood and cord tissue processing plus one year of storage, and so much more.

[SPEAKER_04]: They will be there for you every step of the way.

[SPEAKER_04]: Start your donor search today by visiting cryobank.com and using promo code queerfam25 for a free level 2 subscription to their donor catalog.

[SPEAKER_04]: You can also apply that code to a discount on a level 3 subscription, which gives you even more information about these donors.

[SPEAKER_04]: Go make the babies and then come tell me about them.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, back to the episode.

[SPEAKER_04]: I do want to ask about, so once you chose the surrogate, what did you do to do anything legal?

[SPEAKER_04]: Did you have a contract?

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, let's discuss that a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: So basically, everything in an independent journey is pretty much the exact same as an agency journey, except you just have to do the stuff yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: So instead of then finding a lawyer for you, you have to find it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like, Haley still had to go to a psychological check.

[SPEAKER_01]: to make sure she just fine, even though I lawyer ended up being based in Texas because they have to because of her giving birth in Texas, so it has to be under Texas law, not in your law.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we have a lawyer in New York for our egg donor, but then a separate one in Texas for Haiti.

[SPEAKER_01]: and we found them and they were great and then we had to find a separate one for Haley and we just kind of said like is this lawyer okay with you and if not then you're welcome to tell us who you want to pay essentially but she was happy with that person so and the reason is because obviously they can't be the same person because they would be kind of leaning towards one person or not fighting for best interest of both parties thankfully actually Haley because she had done [SPEAKER_01]: Here's my contract.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can we copy these?

[SPEAKER_01]: Use most of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there was a few changes we made in terms of like, she was like, look, I had just had a surrogacy journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't need maternity clothes.

[SPEAKER_01]: But actually, at the end of my last journey, I kind of needed some messages.

[SPEAKER_01]: Would that be okay to put in there and so on?

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of chatting and actually, what was great about not having the agency was, she just text us and be like, is this okay?

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, charge this and so on.

[SPEAKER_03]: It made us understand everything a bit more as well because usually when you get a contract to look what is where she was able to say this is important to me or I want to add this or that's not important take it out and we were like well this is important just can we add that in is that okay with you you know it was just so much nicer than can you ask your client if we can do this you know so it was actually really lovely and we had an escrow for the money that's right [SPEAKER_01]: because you have to always have like a certain minimum in there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was like 20,000 or something.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we would put that in as a long film and then we could top it off.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for, so you didn't have to have it all right.

[SPEAKER_01]: But she would know that at least three months payment in there and so on.

[SPEAKER_04]: For like all the medical bills and all the medical bills.

[SPEAKER_01]: All the medical bills.

[SPEAKER_04]: Because it's not covered under insurance, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like all our doctor visits had to, you had to pay out a pocket.

[SPEAKER_01]: So first, some of them, I think her insurance ended up covering just because she had a chance to receive one that basically.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were like, well, look, if you're getting a scan, you're getting a scan, it doesn't matter who's baby it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: Love that's great.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're paying for the insurance kind of thing, which was great.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because especially with the bird.

[SPEAKER_01]: uh we have friends who didn't have like that same insurance like just and basically like they ended up having to pay like all her hospital fees as well whereas like thankfully for us her fees covered under her insurance and then as soon as the baby was born a swap to our insurance.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there was one or two smart things like she ended up getting charged for an appointment area had and it was like $400 and I think you know what instead of fighting with the insurance I'm just going to pay it like it's just an easy year for her yes because I would have to go back to like the hospital and get nalas like or are is date changed or like from and it was just it was too complex and I look for $400 in the grand scheme of things after everything we paid like that's fine [SPEAKER_01]: how much money do you think I know it's hard to save it on at like could you like estimate how much money you you might have saved for our first journey i'm gonna estimate around a hundred thousand yeah but that included like everything like what i say a hundred thousand that included everything from like [SPEAKER_01]: Airbnb for three weeks in Texas, they're like the flights.

[SPEAKER_01]: We like talk a trip out.

[SPEAKER_01]: We paid for Haley to come in for the transfer.

[SPEAKER_01]: And some of that you could cook back out.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to go to the 20 weeks challenge of like I personally loved it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But still, also we had paid for like a package in our clinic that [SPEAKER_01]: like it was like a guaranteed transfer kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like if Haley had had a miscarriage or whatever, they would have transferred again, inclusive of that cost.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: So you paid like a lump sum with the caveat that exactly if there were problems and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it ended up being [SPEAKER_01]: About a hundred thousand but what I will say is like so my company then two things that happened was they had a Lom som that they gave us towards that as well for fertility benefits so that's great and it wouldn't pay for any of the Health but it helped it actually pretty much covered like all of our Airbnb and the car rental and stuff like that Anything related to it because it's called like [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's like family planning benefit or something.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they're aware that like health insurance does uncover all the costs of like traveling to clinics and doing these things.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of other things.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that was one lifetime benefit.

[SPEAKER_01]: So once we used that, that was gone.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was the first journey was cheaper because of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And also, [SPEAKER_01]: with our health insurance, we ended off getting money back.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when we first went through, they had said, you know, you actually have 30,000 in health care benefits for IVF and stuff and we're like, oh, amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I was talking to them on the phone and I was like, hey, it seems we meet all the criteria.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were like, yeah, how long have you been trying for, have you been trying for a year?

[SPEAKER_01]: And we were like, yeah, I guess so, and they were like, what's your wife name?

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, well, my husband's name.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they were like, you can't wait.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, well, I'm reading your policy here.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it says, it has no gender on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It says, how have you had sex for a year with no perfection and not got pregnant?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I can guarantee you that is the truth.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're not gotten pregnant.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, if you wanted to gender your language, that's fine, but right now it's not gender.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's not there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was United Healthcare we were at the time and they came back and said, look, there are other companies that cover this, but they have to pay an additional fee as a company.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I just went back to MasterCard and was like, hey, I don't think you're going to cover it for us because we've already paid all these huge fees, but for the next person, they should never be on a call and get that same feedback and have to go through that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they were like, [SPEAKER_01]: yet that's absolutely bullshit and they went back and changed it and we're like we've actually asked you now to help care to cover your costs as well so they ended up giving the clinic back a load of money as well which in fairness we didn't get it in hand it was with the clinic and I had a trouble it was kind of getting it then however it just covered our entire second journey with the help and so I just use it as a business.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah [SPEAKER_04]: that's amazing and that's the thing I say and this is something I didn't have the wear with all when we were going through it and IVF wasn't covered and things were not covered right um i didn't have the wear with all to like go to the employer our employer and be like hey yo this is biased and this is total shit so okay you you can switch [SPEAKER_04]: they any any company can switch to a more inclusive policy it just takes people in the company employees coming to them and saying we all need this so that's just a note for everyone out there who's ready to go on this journey like you can talk to your company about the insurance that they have and I didn't do it and I wish I had so good for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: everything down to leave as well like when I started there again like I started there when we started dating and um they didn't have like adoption leave or anything like that or any inclusive leave it was just like if you're a woman who gives birth you'd have to leave because yeah right now they have like after a lot of like queer employees pushing for it and single mothers and so on or like foster parents like they have like [SPEAKER_01]: which was like fantastic to have the time and it's just like I've seen a time and time again like you can really push for these things in your company and explain like actually like there is benefits especially because like one of our biggest pushes was like this actually helps women as well because like yeah [SPEAKER_01]: women who are taking time, like to give birth, means that people will actively go, you know, they could get pregnant.

[SPEAKER_01]: I might, that they won't say in a loud, obviously, because it's a legal, but I might hire a man who can't get pregnant or doesn't have the same leave.

[SPEAKER_01]: But when we both have the same leave, that's removed from the equation.

[SPEAKER_04]: Good point.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, as we started pushing like senior leadership and stuff to take it as well, you'll see like both genders take it now and it's totally inclusive and everyone's like, actually it's not that disruptive to your work and you can like talk through this and when we're more open about these conversations, it makes everyone's life easier.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like for me, I ended up taking areas at this beginning because first child or like, oh, what are we doing?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I learned actually, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we were very lucky with Arya as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was very quiet, didn't do much as a baby, but she was like crazy at one.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like with Nala, I'm going to take most of my leave at the end of the first year because like that's her busiest time and the hardest on own and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So um, because he's a stay at home dad.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so they have flexibility in straight.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just hanging in.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, it's hard, but no, that's a really great.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's such a good point.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it's something that came up a couple of times.

[SPEAKER_04]: This season is that giving us rights, the rights that we fight for, don't just help us, they help.

[SPEAKER_05]: everyone.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're not trying to just get rights for us.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're trying to make life better for all.

[SPEAKER_04]: And if people could just see that, like it's it's just so obvious.

[SPEAKER_04]: But so I love that you made that point.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I love that you pushed back on that whole gender thing with the insurance company.

[SPEAKER_04]: Because I wonder if they went in and gendered it after your conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: because then that's like obviously blatant like now you really really really are being homophobic right now it's not veiled now it really is they seem to be doing like the main thing was I can't speak for the health insurance who are always on themselves you know they're trying never to pay out we all know that's how it's during time [SPEAKER_01]: But like, Alex can say it's like, oh, for us, it's a company and like the company I've worked for, like, they've any time I've gone to them about anything, they've been like, yeah, that makes sense, that's like, that's logical, like, why wouldn't we do that?

[SPEAKER_01]: And so on, which has been great.

[SPEAKER_04]: Good for you.

[SPEAKER_04]: So once again, the lesson here is be your own advocate.

[SPEAKER_04]: Come on.

[SPEAKER_04]: We have to, unfortunately, we have to be our own advocate still.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like we have to, everybody does.

[SPEAKER_04]: But we seem to have to do it more.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I'm just always an even actually the one other place we advocated for that I think was really important was the hospital.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we had obviously had like a just a not great experience the first time in the hospital because of Shane being born and everything like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: the nurses were the people who were great, 90% of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was one or two people who would like very much refer to Haley as the mother, and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there was no badness meant out of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It just, they didn't have the right training and the right vocab and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Me being me, send like a six page, like here is a breakdown of all the problems we had, like with pictures and with like, and also here are the people who are great and could train the rest of yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she was like, you know, they would give you like a, they'll put prints on it on a kind of certificate, and then name of mother Crosstows and father.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just like, could I?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: You, I'm pretty worried.

[SPEAKER_01]: Documents and print that.

[SPEAKER_01]: You could have easily changed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, instead of scripting.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you knew we were there.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: But in fairness to the director, so we had I emailed again the second time we were because they did give feedback and we're like we're changing these things and so on and I just said like hey, just so you know we're coming here again for our second daughter, just a reminder of the problems like I hope they we don't have to clap [SPEAKER_01]: best experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: They had changed all the paperwork.

[SPEAKER_01]: They had like new inclusive parent parent and they are very much like a mother's hospital like given birth and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they were like look in straight scenarios we do sometimes get and I was like that's fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just want my parent parent like that's like not a problem.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's what I want.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for us, like, they, it was just such a change of experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, even for us, because we had a babysitter for Ariah all day for Nala being born, because Haley had gone in like 6am.

[SPEAKER_01]: We were in there for every moment of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And her sister was babysitting Ariah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then we had a sitter when her sister was putting her kids to bed.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we were like, oh, we'll have a sitter for Ariah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then we'll bring her to the hospital when Nala's born.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we'll put her to sleep in our room.

[SPEAKER_01]: Our planned perfectly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course what happened was.

[SPEAKER_01]: That'll be enough.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the case, Haley's not going to do it for a while.

[SPEAKER_01]: You go home on a new collect area and bring her back because it could be the middle of the night.

[SPEAKER_01]: The second he leaves the hospital.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a labor.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he goes collect area.

[SPEAKER_01]: He gets, he'd tankfully gets back in time, but [SPEAKER_01]: Are there no chance for that?

[SPEAKER_01]: So what do we do with her?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because we don't have time to put her sleep and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Parents have their children in the room.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not something we wanted to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, she doesn't need to see all that.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we just said, like, what can we do?

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the nurses was like, give me a second.

[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, it was Ardula.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Michelle, amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, let me call someone.

[SPEAKER_01]: She called one of nurses.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, I just needed to stand outside the door over the child for two minutes.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were like, no problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: She stood outside, played with her daughter.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like we then had Nala and then she came in and ran after her father and like they were all so wonderful.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was just a whirlwind different experience like for all the good reasons.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like advocating for yourself can never hurt.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure it's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a lot.

[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of the time we get so aggravated that we think of, everyone's against us.

[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes people just don't know what to do.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's when I say a lot of times, you know, like we do, a lot of times we assume that it's they have hit, there's a hatred or there's some, the inside bias, but sometimes it's also just what you don't know you don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it just came to me the same.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And often in rural Texas, that I have like a gay couple flying in like that is going to have the exact scenario we had with surrogacy and so on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like randomly Texas is one of the most surrogacy friends.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess like it's a smaller town again, so like it's one of those things, but it was so worthwhile to say something, so yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Big absolutely good people have been a bit of a doubt and just say, who look here is my issues.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you can fix some grace, you know, rather than be like.

[SPEAKER_04]: And sometimes it works out, hopefully no more times than not.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I agree.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, that's another takeaway here.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's absolutely right.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like sometimes it's just, it's not on the radar.

[SPEAKER_04]: We just have to put it on the radar for them.

[SPEAKER_04]: which sucks, but better than than it being the other thing, which nobody wants to feel that.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're running low on time, so I want to talk about Ireland and what you're doing to advocate there.

[SPEAKER_01]: when we had our surrogacy just thought noting of it and was like yeah we'll eventually move on to ardent not a big deal.

[SPEAKER_01]: The girls have a birth certificate and then I came across this page.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was a quality for children first with Renee Van Mettong.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh I interviewed her years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, she's amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's incredible and I reached out because I saw that they had mentioned surrogacy and so on and was like, what's the story in Ireland?

[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she was like, oh, there's this northern group Irish gay dads.

[SPEAKER_01]: You should connect with them as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I ended up connecting with both of them realized that there was no laws in Ireland around surrogacy, but there was groups advocating for it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I got involved very quickly and very quickly [SPEAKER_04]: I'm starting to see the personality here.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm starting to see her.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I felt like, OK, well, I can't.

[SPEAKER_01]: Truly say we did everything we possibly could for our daughters if I'm not involved.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what I learned was, our births are in America, parent one, parent two, own and mark.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're both on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's all there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Their surrogacy info is in a different place, but they have access to everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: But on their births are to tessels.

[SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[SPEAKER_01]: In Ireland, they would create a new birth.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they don't just recognize that births hurt.

[SPEAKER_01]: They don't recognize that births hurt for gay couples.

[SPEAKER_01]: They do it for straight couples.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, even in the States, you got to be careful too, because that's why they always say you get second-parent adoption just in case.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in Ireland, like, so my brother, who has the, he's straight and has the exact same birzer'd, but with his wife's name on it there, kids were instantly recognized given a passport.

[SPEAKER_01]: No problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then for us, they go, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So who gave birch to these children?

[SPEAKER_01]: Not used to genetic.

[SPEAKER_01]: like like you gave physical births.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we would then say Haley and they would then say is Haley married and if Haley was married then be the father on the births.

[SPEAKER_01]: It will be my dad.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Haley.

[SPEAKER_01]: Haley is not married.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So then they would say, okay, we need you to do a genetic test, right, to find out who the biological father is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're doctors.

[SPEAKER_01]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're doctors.

[SPEAKER_01]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're doctors.

[SPEAKER_01]: You didn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: We we've chosen not to.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if the girls ever ask and say, can we get a finder?

[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, A will just message to doctor and his fellows.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if they want to know, we'll find out, but we just don't care.

[SPEAKER_01]: So each time we were going back to what we said earlier on, when we put in the two embryos, one of these, there was one of H-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E- [SPEAKER_01]: So we started going through working with the Irish government to change this.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's this thing called the assisted human reproduction bill, or a bill, like producer.

[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, it basically states that all the laws around surrogacy.

[SPEAKER_01]: We had worked with the Minister for Health on this, really, really in depth, and when I came into the picture, and I'm not saying like, because they had been advocating for everything, but like, unless the Minister sometimes sees a family in front of them in here as the story, like, it doesn't click with my guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, my family aren't recognise, and they were like, [SPEAKER_01]: No, that makes no sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, your family would be recognized because someone who's done the same journey in Ireland would be recognized.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, well, no, because your bill specifically says, like, you have to be resident in Ireland for two years prior to the birth, like to be recognized.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like, like, we couldn't because we were in America when we did this and it extends all these people.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we then ended up going through like a lot of work to get the bill changed, they ended up not changing the bill, they ended up putting it through and saying we're going to do a mending legislation for this.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it has been there's two stages of a bill in Ireland.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's enacted, which means like it's signed into law, but it hasn't been commenced, which means like it hasn't like, but you can't utilize the law.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's not law yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they say they're waiting for the mending legislation.

[SPEAKER_01]: with the amending legislation, we're pushing to get covered.

[SPEAKER_01]: It looks like they are now going to recognize like births, and births abroad, differently than they'll recognize the Irish roots.

[SPEAKER_01]: While this affects us in a positive way, our children will be recognized and will both be recognized.

[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm now arguing against is like, yeah, that's fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: but it actually is bullshit for the parents in Ireland because if we had done our journey in Ireland, it would be illegal still because we would have paid our surrogate, whereas they have no restrictions against me doing it in the US because I live in the US, but if I lived in Ireland and did the same journey, it's some illegal.

[SPEAKER_04]: Even not allowed to pay to make a baby, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: But you're allowed to pay the agency, you're allowed to pay everyone else by the woman carrying your child.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh god, that's not a virus law.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: It makes no sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's so many restrictions in the law around women.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it bothers me so much.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like one of them is like, the woman has had to have given birth before she can be a surrogate.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, how can you put like that makes no sense?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're putting like an arbitrary rule on these women saying that they must like be 25.

[SPEAKER_01]: They must have done this.

[SPEAKER_01]: They must have done this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're just trying to control a woman's body again.

[SPEAKER_01]: women can't make their own decisions like if they're going to be a good surrogate or not like possibly they might not be but you know like put it's up to her to make that decision exactly everything and when we so there's like a couple in Ireland who I know who basically but like most people in Ireland would know them Brian and Arthur who did surrogacy and they used Brian sister.

[SPEAKER_01]: and they meet probably all the criteria because they did a domestic journey I assume they didn't pay her and so on kind of thing that like it looks like the perfect surrogacy under the new Irish law and the amending legislation.

[SPEAKER_01]: However, like it's so and they will be covered by the way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I guess it's not about them, but if someone wanted to recreate their journey, mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, they wouldn't be able to because if their sister, like, if, say, if my friend wanted to do it and his sister hadn't given birth before.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so not eligible.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, not eligible and what's crazy about it is like they're being so restrictive on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're like yeah and if you don't meet these laws not only will your family not be recognized like we can put you in jail for two years and we can charge you a fee of like I think it's up to 50,000 or something.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm advocating for is so many things, but like, judicial discretion and so on, to basically say, like, the judge can say, this was in the best interest of the child, or like, you know, the surrogate was 24 and a half, like, as in I'm not going to say no to that, like it was for whatever timings, like it did it's in the best interest of the child that the family is recognized.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas right now none of that is possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: The judge has to follow the law down to the letter because they don't have any of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they don't have all these restrictions in it that are just unnecessary.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can roll this but look with anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're trying to appease a certain type of person.

[SPEAKER_01]: that might define what our political values and that's what they're trying to do and then of course you hear you know in five years when the review period is over we can come back and say let's look at this again but that's yeah it's too little too late then.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god, you've got your your your hard worker.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we're cut out for you and it's all just such and that's just one tiny part of the world right that things are so messed up and it's everywhere.

[SPEAKER_03]: Look at Italy, you know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know.

[SPEAKER_04]: So scary.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I look where this country's headed.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't even know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, not good.

[SPEAKER_04]: Not good.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know where we can out.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're all going to go to Canadaia.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's what that's been doing.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't really do.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's so it's really like thanks for advocating, you know, and everybody who can, you know, do that advocating work.

[SPEAKER_01]: we look time and time again and say I get this kind of anxiety sometimes and be like am I doing enough because I'm not saying like giving the time to other causes that like I do to our heart as well like I try share things when I see it about like trans rights and so on but it's not where I put like most of my time.

[SPEAKER_01]: and like they're one of our most attacked friends at the minute like as a community like because they're an easy target right now and it's like I often think oh god I should maybe if I invested the time here but we like queer people are expected to do everything and we're just kind [SPEAKER_01]: constantly fighting.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's so hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like I think what I try to say to people is it's okay to focus on one thing and put your energy into it and try fight for that because we have so many fights and there's so many different people fighting for these things that like if we don't win the little battles we're never gonna win the big ones.

[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes it's okay to do that and then maybe when our children are finally recognized we'll be able to put in the work to get other laws [SPEAKER_04]: There are so many little fires that we have to put out, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: That is how it feels.

[SPEAKER_04]: That is, and I feel like I'm pulled in so many directions too.

[SPEAKER_04]: My kid's school district, it's like moms for liberty, has kind of infiltrate like this, like, and there's some, like, segregate, veiled segregation, things trying to be pushed in our in Chelsea, you know?

[SPEAKER_04]: And like, [SPEAKER_04]: in progressive NYC in liberal NYC and it's like so I feel like I'm fighting that and I'm sure I'm doing as much as I can to fight that and then I'm trying to fight for my trans siblings because that's happening too and you know I'm putting this podcast out and I'm trying to fight for family building and like it is so there's so many there's so many little fires that you feel like have to be put out right.

[SPEAKER_04]: and you're raising two little girls who are a biracial and you're both white dads.

[SPEAKER_04]: So then there's that whole other thing that I'm knowing for hearing everything I'm hearing.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure you're doing the work there too to make sure that they feel seen and that the world around them sees them for who they are and it's a lot.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's a lot.

[SPEAKER_03]: But when we were looking at the egg donor profiles, we were kind of going, oh, what are we looking for here and then so on?

[SPEAKER_03]: And we came across this egg donor and we're like, she is amazing.

[SPEAKER_03]: She has everything that we want.

[SPEAKER_03]: But we also have this other girl as well who seems to be everything that we want.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, as you said, the first one was American Nigerian.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then the other one was Italian Irish and we're kind of going, [SPEAKER_03]: Well, maybe we should just go with the Italian Irish because, you know, we know that will half of that culture at least, you know, that this is just to be fine, okay?

[SPEAKER_03]: We'll just go with that.

[SPEAKER_03]: So even though we really, we really love the other one more, you know, but we're like, let's just make life easy, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_04]: That's not give a stigma to our families.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that extra thing and also like, why should you have to like, it's like, I know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like the grappling with that is even like too much, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: the world around us.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like just to make life easier for us for them, you know, for our families, whatever it might be.

[SPEAKER_03]: So we just like, let's just go with this, this Italian Irish, or Italian Irish girl.

[SPEAKER_01]: She wants lesbian, which I did love.

[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was like, this is cool to have another queer person and so on.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so what she went into the clinic and then she has to do her kind of test to make sure everything is okay and whatnot and is she a match essentially and unfortunately, she she failed on the STI panel so she had an STI and we were like, okay well, you know, get together some medications and we'll try again next month or whatever until like no.

[SPEAKER_01]: Shirley can give it hair like it's in.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just worked like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Her fertility has been affected and we are not going to take it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because remember, we said, like, we will keep going until we get a success essentially.

[SPEAKER_03]: So they're like, no, we're not going to go with her because this might.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not that her fertility was necessary.

[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, it's just one of them things that could be in your putting it's so much money.

[SPEAKER_04]: So like, you know, you need the best out chances you can get.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we had paid 2,000 just three times a year for those tests.

[SPEAKER_03]: So that was at a pocket 2,000, we were like, oh, no, we were just launching it.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's the very first steps.

[SPEAKER_03]: So we were like, we already lost 2,000 and like, how much more?

[SPEAKER_03]: And so eventually, the clinic got back to us and they were just saying, you know, this other girl, now you were looking at you said that you loved.

[SPEAKER_03]: It just so happens that she had matched with the family and then the family actually got pregnant naturally.

[SPEAKER_03]: So she's no longer needed, but she has gone through all the tests.

[SPEAKER_03]: So she is a match.

[SPEAKER_03]: you and you don't have to pay.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it was fate and and we really do believe that it was like we were meant to and we let our brains get in the way our thoughts kind of got, oh, this is not it.

[SPEAKER_03]: This will go with the easier option, but actually we couldn't be more happy, you know, with the head that's turned out and it's just, and we didn't talk to our families and stuff and let that, because [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, our families are all wide Irish.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not as if they hadn't been around black people or anything like that, but there was no, in our family necessarily, so it was like, hey, just so you know here are like, here are things you should think about and like books you should read and so on, like, because like one of the things we read was white supremacy in me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which is like all about doing the work and holding yourself in that like level of uncomfortableness and saying like you know I'm not as like on top of this as I should be as much as I want to be and I think I'm all okay we all have like [SPEAKER_01]: Inbuilt.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's known to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we can't speak.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: We can't speak.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: We can't speak.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: We still have that hangover within us that we don't even know is there.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so sometimes it takes shining spotlight on it and kind of going, do you know what you do that?

[SPEAKER_03]: Is that a thing?

[SPEAKER_03]: And you're like, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I like that could actually be.

[SPEAKER_01]: a real problem going forward, so, you know, we did the research ourselves and and we did a few things like we, after they were born, like so we had area on the upper west side, we loved it there, we were like it's way too white here, like so we moved to Hamilton Heights, but it's hard to learn.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah and there's just like so many more people who look like her around here and Nala as well of course and then like her school I think there's like one white kid in her class kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's funny like Irish as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I was like, it's nice for her to be around that and see like that representation around her the whole time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like for me, I think the biggest thing was I remember hearing this story in Ireland.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was about like a wide Irish dad who had lived in, I think it was like Kenya for a couple of years.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he had a baby with a woman over there, a black woman, and she was like, [SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, okay, I, I'll raise the child in Ireland if that's okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, sure, whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a random place.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and he brought the child back to Ireland.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was about, like, had the first years of her life, like, the child just had, like, the worst hair.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've, like, until, like, a black woman went up to him and was, like, he needs to sort here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Here's, here's her hair, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Go do this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, he's your current, like, this is where you go.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like from day one I was very aware of like their hair is going to be different.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be that parent people are talking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to make sure like I'm on top of these things.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I joined like all these Facebook groups about like black hair, about like black culture, like figuring out like what differences that you like wouldn't think are there are there.

[SPEAKER_03]: The bathing routine is different than every routine.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's so many different things.

[SPEAKER_03]: You just have to be aware of it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Every child is different obviously.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I really felt different to Nala, even in terms of hair.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, like, Arya has a good tree bee.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, once I figured out super manageable, I know how to do the curls.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know how to make it more curly.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know how to make it less curly for depending on the style.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nala, we're figuring out.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, I feel like it's for A or for C.

We're still figuring it out, depending.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because the thing is, I want them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also have like, black friends in their like 30s who are like, I don't know how to do my hair.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, so I have to take for a time and I'm like, well, I want them to know how to do their hair.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, that's something like, it sounds like such a stupid thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think, but like, to all just that was really important for them to know that because you think about like, even here on milby sets and stuff that like black women are doing their own hair because people don't know how to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's crazy.

[SPEAKER_04]: they have to, yeah, the inclusion needs to happen.

[SPEAKER_04]: And representation needs to happen, and it sounds like you're.

[SPEAKER_01]: He-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he-he- [SPEAKER_03]: We're selective about the books that they have and the programs that they might watch.

[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, foods that they eat even, we're just trying to kind of vary things up as well.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it just, you know, we're just trying, you know, that's all you can do.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, I think that they're really lucky to have you to a dad.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's what I'll say, you know, and that's.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's the point that we make time and time again on this show.

[SPEAKER_04]: We are so intentional down to the fires.

[SPEAKER_04]: We put out down to the fights we choose to take on and when it comes to family building, we are the most intentional out there.

[SPEAKER_04]: We really, really do the work.

[SPEAKER_04]: We work hard to make these families and we do the work when they're here too.

[SPEAKER_04]: We really do.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think we're all who's aware that we're being judged all the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: All the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's a time.

[SPEAKER_03]: You are there.

[SPEAKER_03]: Everything has to be so, you know, you have to be honest, you know.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, true dad.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's why your daughter's hair is impeccable.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right?

[SPEAKER_04]: There's that player too.

[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about this at the party.

[SPEAKER_01]: We did at the party.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Because my kid's hair's a mess, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_04]: But I'm, but it were two moms.

[SPEAKER_04]: So we're like, it's okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: We know how to do it.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're just doing it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know?

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the thing is like, we talked about this so many times.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just this expectation about like men being crap duds or whatever, I don't know where it came from.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, own, I think you were in a shop one day.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like, Ari was crying because she used to cry when she went into Trader Joe's.

[SPEAKER_01]: And just like, she hates me.

[SPEAKER_01]: We knew it was, we knew it was going to happen.

[SPEAKER_04]: I hate the grocery store too.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: I hate it.

[SPEAKER_03]: But like some women can also maybe you should put it in and just give me advice.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just gonna go.

[SPEAKER_04]: No, I'd like it's why you tell me what to do Is like you know, it's because you're a dumb dad You guys don't know what to do the condescension is ridiculous right or like father [SPEAKER_01]: I was out with Arya when she was young like on on my front and I think I was going to brunch with friends or something you were sick at the time so I was like oh I'll get her right to the house so that like you can just relax and basically the amount of people that stopped me and were like oh my gosh you're such a good dad and I was like this is that rages like I'm literally just carrying my child in front of me like oh my god [SPEAKER_04]: I think we're also a queer family.

[SPEAKER_04]: So doing a great job of breaking that norm, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: Breaking those boxes, like we're shattering these things open for people to see, oh, oh, we're like stuck in these weird molds and we don't have to be, like let's break out, y'all.

[SPEAKER_03]: Tradition is a whole other people.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's so strong.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it feels like the right way is the old way, you know?

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, no, you build your own path.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's mind-blowing and also this has been such a wonderful conversation.

[SPEAKER_04]: I could talk to you too forever.

[SPEAKER_04]: I first met you at my, the party I threw, the prime party.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm doing another party.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's gonna be a Halloween party for kids and for all of us.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I hope you come because then we can all, we can all hang out more because I've got to talk more about this.

[SPEAKER_04]: So fun.

[SPEAKER_04]: This has been awesome.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you both so much.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Have been a nice, yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: A special thank you once again to California cryo bank for being a sponsor of this episode.

[SPEAKER_04]: Use code queerfam25 for a free level 2 subscription to their donor catalog.

[SPEAKER_04]: And tune in next week for another amazing episode of queer family goodness.

[SPEAKER_04]: Whew, well folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And if you did enjoy it, feel free to listen to another or watch another.

[SPEAKER_04]: I have so many episodes for your listening or viewing pleasure.

[SPEAKER_04]: Just go pick one and enjoy.

[SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot.

[SPEAKER_04]: They're really good.

[SPEAKER_04]: And also, if you really do like this show, please, I know I say it all the time, but please do consider supporting the show on Patreon.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're just gonna go to patreon.com slash the queer family podcast.

[SPEAKER_04]: You're gonna pick a tear, you're gonna join, and you're gonna get that bonus content.

[SPEAKER_04]: And you're also gonna get my love and adoration for the rest of my life.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love you all, thanks for tuning in, keep on tuning in, and I'll see you next time.