Trust me?

Do you trust me?

Right?

Ever lead you a story?

Trust?

This is the truth, the only truth.

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to trust me.

The podcast about Colts extreme belief manipulation from two unfortunately straight women who've actually experienced it.

I'm Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth.

Today our guest is Aaron Goldenberg, comedian, performer, and survivor of Bill Gothard's IBLP curriculum as well as conversion therapy.

Aaron is going to share with us what it was like growing up as a boy with the IBLP homeschool curriculum, how he tried to defend Christianity in public school, and what the religious framework of male dominance was like from a male perspective.

He is an amazing actor and comic.

It was so cool to talk to him.

He's also going to tell us about how his parents discovered he was gay and pushed him into conversion therapy and this so called ex Gay conference led by the now disbanded Exodus International, How he pursued celibacy and recovery from his queerness for many years, including almost marrying a woman, and how getting sober forced him to question the teachings of his youth and embrace his sexuality.

Yeah, I love I love him.

His videos are so funny, so talented.

Yeah, he's going to be a huge Sorry, I agree.

I mean he's already halfway there.

He's already yeah, yeah, I mean, he's going to be on The Hunting Wives, he's going to release a book.

He's just he's it's all happening.

It's also happening.

Boo boop boop boop bee boop boop boop.

Cults a good song, Megan before we talk to Aaron.

Yes, please tell me your culties thing this week?

Okay, okay, this regards the two by two cult that I was raised in.

A person released an article entitled Secretive Church under investigation by the FBI holds annual convention in York, Nebraska.

Okay, okay, And it's a article.

That contains, you know, the nine hundred accusations of sexual abuse and just some kind of crazy quote.

One of the workers actually pointed to the story of Joseph and the Bible, claiming Joseph was falsely accused by a woman of trying to get her to lay down with him.

Wow.

Yeah, so it's not a flattering article.

And this is when the church gets really deceitful.

In my opinion, the person who wrote this article moved jobs.

They moved to a different newspaper.

So the two y two workers have said that they told so many lies in this article that they were fired.

So somebody reached out to the editor and to the journalist and they were both like, oh no, I just wanted to move to a different city and work at this paper.

And then was like, no, he wasn't fired.

And it's just so frustrating how this misinformation and these little lies like and we see it with so many people in power, just like, no, it wasn't that.

It's just justification after justification and.

Mass confusion and just like, oh, okay, I guess it is a light like how can write right?

You know, if you are willing to lie, you can just like lean into coincidences and I don't know.

I mean, it's always there's always an explanation, and it like yeah, precisely, it doesn't matter if it's real, doesn't matter as long as it gives people something to ease the cognitive dissonance.

And it's so frustrating.

Exactly so yes, if you were experience, which we talk about cognitive dissonance in this episode a lot and a way that I found and like.

But people will go to extreme lengths to avoid cognitive dissonance, which is one of the most uncomfortable feelings in the human body.

And so yeah, I think a lot of people are just like, oh cool, he got fired, this isn't true this and just move on.

And I hate it.

So that's my cultiest thing of the week.

What about you?

What's yours?

Well, I kind of have too, because one is fun and also a plug for my album that's out.

It's called Crab Pleaser.

Go listen to it.

First album ever.

I did an album release party which you came to Hell Yeah, and everybody did wear white.

We had a ton of people wearing white, and we did have some silly baptisms to go with one of the songs that is about Believe and Megan actually got baptized everybody by my friend Shane.

I sure did, and I've never I've never been baptized before.

Shane really looked like he was a church leader.

I know how he did that.

But yeah, the two by twos are very very serious about you never getting baptized until you're like old enough to really I think it's like sixteen that is when they let you start doing it.

And so they don't baptize you as a baby.

They don't baptize you after your dad like the Mormons.

So it actually felt like a kind of taboo thing to do.

But there was just this like performance that you were doing where they're like, somebody get baptized, and I was like, oh gosh, like this performance needs to go on, and nobody's jumping in the pool.

So and where we went, and it did feel like, oh my gosh, why is this like taboo?

Am I gonna get in trouble?

And then I was like no, there's so many like layers to my you know, once you think you've healed, I don't know.

But then I'm just gonna say this.

I got baptized at this beautiful fun party I called an uber and this actually really nice car came and it was.

Like the windows were down.

The already was up in the hills kind of near where I live, and it was this really cool, weird ride back to my house and I was just like very wet and the windows were down.

And it was like I felt like i'd actually been I don't.

Know, like you'd overcome an obstacle from your religious.

Yeah, it just felt like it felt like a beautiful little moment.

So anyway, that's all.

That's so nice.

I'm so glad.

Yeah, okay, so yes, the album absolutely slaps.

It's like pop superstar meets ari Astor meets like phenomenal.

It's just phenomenal.

So thank you.

Ever go listen, thank you, And I'm just gonna quickly.

I would feel remiss not mentioning, even though by the time this comes out it'll be a couple weeks after the fact.

Not mentioning the fact that Jimmy.

Kimmel was pulled from the air because of Donald Trump wanting him to be pulled from the air, which is very foreboding and scary.

And then Donald Trump also posted he's designating Antifa as a major terrorist organization.

Except Antifa's not an organization.

It just means anti fascist, which means anybody who says that they are against him, believing that he's a fascist, could be designated a terrorist.

That's one of the many culty things in our government at the moment.

Yeah, love that for us.

I love it.

Yeah, I mean, it's a scary time.

And yeah, comedians are, don't they have like gestures rights.

Gester's rights, Yeah, because well, yes the king would like but the king only wants gesters that make him look yet.

So yeah, but it's just like even in you know, medieval times, the gester could sometimes you know, make radical points and the king wouldn't immediately be had them because they had the gestures rights.

I don't know enough about that, but I would guess there are some kings who were like, hey, that gester wasn't flattering to me, So I've just with his head with his many dead gester Oh dead Gusters is a fun uh fan name.

Anyway.

Yeah, freedom of speech on all sides is something that we need and it's important.

And I think Aaron.

Is the epitome of somebody who's really leaning into their authentic voice.

Shall we talk to them?

I love it.

Let's do it.

Welcome Aaron Goldenberg to trust me in person.

Thank you for having me in person.

Oh my god, thanks for being here in person.

After a plane and.

No sleep, oh yeah that's a story.

Yeah, I am not good with sleeping on planes at all.

And yeah, for whatever reason, my body woke me up at two am on the East coast, which means that I was awake at eleven pm on the west coast here.

So you're floating in the studio right, delirious.

I have no idea what I'm going to say.

That's exciting.

Actually, I know, I know, like, do I remember anything from my childhood?

We might just gab about our outfits.

Would you just sleep deprivation on this podcast?

Oh yeah, very effective, very tool totally.

Anyway.

Any who, Okay, start off by telling us about your upbringing and what religion your family was.

Sure, okay, that's why is it such a loaded question?

So a big part of my upbringing was ib l P, which is the Institute for Basic Living Principles.

I blocked it that a big part of it was that.

And so we are one of those families that had a lot of kids.

I'm wanna beleven wow.

And it was very much, kind of at far too young of an age, drilled into us that like, families that have more kids are superior in God's eyes because you're having more people to potentially be Christians, to spread God's word even further and all that stuff.

It's called the quiverful.

Yes, OK, we just did an episode on somebody came up to me, or not came up to me.

Somebody was talking to me the other day and said, you have a large family.

Are you quiverful?

I was like, how do you know?

You're coming a little more?

Yeah, a little bit more in the zeit guys where people are like quiver fault and you're like, whoa Were you a homeschooled baby for sure?

Oh my god until tenth grade?

Oh well I got bad I in tenth grade.

I or leading up to that time.

I think my mom was just overwhelmed at home with that many kids, children, which are always always a young child and always pregnant.

I'm number two one of you.

Oh so they were like, let's get him out of the house.

Yeah, kind of.

I think we like expressed a desire to go to school, and also a lot of our friends from church were starting to go to high school, whereas they had been homeschooled for most of their childhood.

And it was at first it was like a very controversial thing, but it was also like, you know, put on the full armor of God and you'll be safe from all the influences of the.

Meanwhile, first day of school, you're like smoking a cigarette in mud.

Yeah right, exactly.

I immediately started giving somebody a blowjob.

I funny enough or embarrassingly enough.

One of my first days of my tenth grade science class was biology, and our teacher very God's Not Dead style if you're familiar with that movie, I don't know.

Okay, God Bless you, God's not Dead.

As a Christian and like extremist evangelical, yes, about like an atheist professor who first day of class, he's like, I need everybody to write down on her sheet of paper.

Your only assignment for today is to write down God is dead.

And our main character, who's very Christian, is like, I can't believe they're making me do this in college.

This is crazy.

And so he writes God's not dead and the conflict begins.

It's like serving goodwill, hunting but stupid.

Just the dumbest.

Yeah yeah, yeah.

If Matt Damon was an absolute idiot, yeah yeah.

So I had been prepped and primed, like you know, in your science class they might say evolution, and if they do, here are the talking points.

So I like, study exactly what I wanted to say, and she did kind of like first day class thing, be like, so here's the thing.

In this class.

We teach science based on proven you know, studied blah blah blah, and we do teach evolution.

Does anybody have a problem with that?

And I was like, this is my moment.

So I raised my hand.

I was like actually, and I have no idea what I said because I was like, I was like shaking as I did it too.

I like, you know, knew that this was my moment to shine for Jesus and this is like my first day of school impression.

And all I do remember is that she kind of said things I wasn't expecting, and so I got shut down.

I was like, yeah, cool, talk about whatever you want.

I was like, oh God, I didn't have an answer for that.

And I felt like such a failure because I felt like my job was to convert everybody around me, including the teachers, day one.

On day one, I needed to be the straightest, most Christian, and I failed at all of those.

Yeah.

We talk about this a lot on here, but there's just this really huge divide between people who are living very literally in these church states of mind, because like I'm at school and I'm like fighting for the Lord.

And it's like most people are just their recess.

Like, what do you mean you weren't five years old and obsessed with that there are twenty demons in your bedroom?

Yeah like that, there's spiritual warfare going on for your soul.

Yeah, that was just my daily life.

If I were to read the scenes in the Sweet Valley High books where they kissed and feel something then the demons.

See that was my you'all had demon fear yours was hell?

Yeah, we didn't have demons.

Know, yeah, hell was?

I mean Jesus.

I so I feel like I was raised in multiple like cult or cult adjacent things all at once because I'm an overachiever basically, so Messianic Judaism in a way, it was just like an offset of Judaism that believes that Jesus is the Messiah and has come and whatever.

We did that because grew up with a Jewish dad, and then IBLP came into the picture.

That really really I think shaped the majority of our daily life and everything as well as went started going after Temple to an Assemblies of God church, which also has like very very authoritarian strict leadership, is always right kind of kind of the Henecostal Pentecostal.

Yes, yes, okay, yeah, yeah, I remember very distinctly a friend of mine at church one day they explained that their family was going to start going to a different church, and I remember this sadness that I felt.

I was like, oh my God, I can't believe they're not a Christian anymore.

Looking back now, it's like, no, they're just going somewhere else.

But we were so like programmed to believe like this is the only and right one.

That was when you were an assembly of the sect of God.

But within our Assemblies of God church, the IBLP teachings had like sort of invaded, which is the whole point of IBLP to like get an doctrine.

All churches across America everywhere.

Yeah, we've talked to some people who were raised with IBLB IBLP God who can say it.

The curriculum as well, and you know, interacted with Bill Gothard and on savory ways.

But the girls were always taught, of course, very little because their role is to grow up and have children.

What was the boy curriculum?

Like?

Woof, so a few things I remember specifically.

It's just like everything for for any gender was just shame and like blind obedience to authority.

The men were meant to like just grow up to be these leaders and so things like studying the Bible and I guess in weird ways like practicing exerting authority in different ways.

So scary.

Yeah.

So one of the things is basically like the umbrella principle with IBLPS, So like the first umbrella is Jesus, then it's the dad, mom, and children under here.

So basically you would go by those levels and depending who was the oldest at home.

So if like it was an oldest boy at home, like you're in charge of the authority figure and not just like hey can you watch the kids for a couple of hours, Like no, you have permission to spank them.

You have permission to like discipline and oh my god, yeah.

Or you were and oldest, did you.

I was get a little drunk on that.

Power, I mean really fucking unfortunately, yeah, because it was like we just did your Yeah of course you were children, Yeah, I do.

I do like to think it was the fun sibling Like I wasn't like always beating my siblings trety thing.

But honestly, in talking to my siblings about a lot of this stuff.

When Shiny Happy People came out on Amazon, which if nobody's heard of it, that's a great way to like get a big lesson on IBLP.

When it came out, our sibling group chat like blew the fuck up, because in a way we didn't realize all the aspects of our life that were stemming from IBLP.

We just knew it as our life, right, And so I was even watching it again just in preparation for the interview because I knew it would like make things fresh, and I was just like, oh, right, it's it's Uh.

There's one quote from it where it basically said IBLP makes every father into a cult leader and every home into an island.

So they are the be all, end all, and for the rest of your life.

It's not until you turn eighteen or anything like that.

Like our dad was very very adamant that, you know, decisions even when you're into adulthood should be run by me.

Wow, if you're planning to marry somebody like that needs to be you.

Know, even for the sons.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Like it got to the point later on that I was in my mid twenties and I had not yet moved out because I felt like I couldn't.

Wow.

I felt like if I did, I would let the family down.

I would, uh, because there's so many responsibility I have.

You're like half running the house at this point, imagin there's I mean, when you say your sibling g chat, that's a bigger group chat than I have.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, friends with friends.

It's a bigger group chat than I can keep up with.

Yeah.

Like that's a big group of people.

And I'm sure that your responsibility wasn't I mean, it was real, you know, like you needed to help them, sure in any ways, and.

Then also like trying to live our own lives like in my mid twenties.

Of course I had a job and I had, you know, my own extracurricular activities and all that shit.

But it was it's so clear to me, especially in hindsight, like the level of trapped that I not just felt, but that I was, like I was on fun fact, my parents divorced after having the eleven kids.

I know, they divorced, and that is where things really really started changing in her house.

Like our mom woke the fuck up.

She put all the kids in school.

Wow, And okay, Mom.

That I think was like the best thing for them, because I think they were just exposed to think at such a younger age that I was not.

I had already been programmed like all of these things are evil, watch out for gay people or people that listen to rock music.

I think by going to school at a younger age, they still had a chance, and I think that proved to be the case with how well adjusted most of them are in ways that I'm like.

I mean, one of my younger sisters, she's maybe young number seven or something like, has a master's degree and is in a high position at work and gets things like paid time off.

I was like, when I was your age, I was felt trapped at home responsible for all these things that I definitely was not anytime I would try to set boundaries because we were not taught boundaries.

That's a big thing in IBLP, Like anything the authority figure says is not just what you're supposed to do, but it's God's will.

So if you're disobeying them, you're disobeying God.

So yeah, just to see how they have flourished and thrived.

I also really really love that part of the reason my dad had so many kids is to raise all these soldiers for Christ.

And now I think ten out of the eleven of US vote Democrat, and like half of us are gay.

So just like the devil, Why sorry.

Daddy, is your dad still in that all these strict movements?

You know what, I don't talk to them.

I have definitely, like had a clean cut from that.

It's one of the best decisions I ever made.

It got to a certain point where I asked myself, if this person was not blood related to me and just a random adult that I knew from church or from work or whatever, would I want them in my life?

Would I want them giving me unsolicited advice or governing me or instructing me on how to do things.

No, I would think they're a crazy person, right yeah, I would think they're awful and manipulative and you know, insert descriptive word here.

That was just a moment for me where I didn't think, oh, I'm going to cut them off for the rest of my life.

But it's been seven years at this point, I and I do think about it sometimes.

I'm like, do I want to reintroduce that that relationship And the answer right now is no, Like, I'm good.

If that's what's healthy.

That's totally for you, Like, that's totally fair.

Can we go back in tie sure and talk about your relationship with your sexuality and how your parents responded to that.

Let's yeah, and how you discuss context for this.

Yeah, how I discovered it?

I honestly, honestly, girls, I felt very really gay from a really young age.

Yeah, like before the age of ten, before pubrety or anything like that, like seven, I was, I is, for sure like attracted to my guy friends in a different way than girls.

And I knew that prior to like knowing what sex or sexuality or anything was.

Like, I just knew that I wanted to see what their bodies look like, right, And so yeah, from a young age, I was like experimenting with friends.

But it was also very very clearly taught within the church iblp all that that like it was not only a sin and you know, demons and all that, but also that it like being gay wasn't real, Like it's not a real thing.

Oh wait, tell me.

It's not a real thing, because what it is is like it's it's a sin and it's a choice.

So equal to saying like if you commit adultery, are you an adulterer.

No, you're just a person that's committed adultery.

I see.

So being gay is like the sin of gay.

Right, you're not identified by that thing.

You've just done that thing, and Jesus can heal it and take it away and whatever it is.

So before I really knew what I was doing, I knew that it needed to be secret.

I definitely was a bit more of a flamboyant and artistically drawn young kid.

I loved to dance.

I knew from like the age of four that I wanted to be an actor.

My favorite movie at like a really young age was The Little Mermaid, Like just very very like.

If I saw that kid, I would be like, Oh, they're gay.

I hope their parents accept them.

And for me, the people that I was surrounded with, whether it's my parents or other people, I think we're in like an act.

I don't think it's just like denial.

I think it's like an act of denial, Like we need to explain to this child why they're not gay.

So something along the line of, oh, you like Ariel, Is it because you think she's really pretty and you want to marry her?

Is that why?

That's why?

Right?

And then like really really intentionally asking, like what girls do you have a crush on?

You know?

So I was programmed to know that I needed to answer these questions a certain way, right, And oh, you like you like to dance just like David dance before the Lord, you know, the manliest biblical figure there.

Yeah, praise God, bless him.

When did you become aware that there was dissonance between how you felt and what you were supposed to.

Do or feel.

I think at a certain age I realized that my friends started dating girls and I was not the one girl that I liked at church.

I asked her out.

She said no.

Also, dating and courtship and all that is a whole other thing with IBLP, Like it's you don't ask somebody on a date unless you believe that you're meant to marry them.

So I was like, she's the prettiest, most popular girl at church, I'm probably meant to marry her.

I love your math, yeah yeah yeah.

And then I remember, like such a toxic masculinity reflexive thought for me, but it was how men were around me was when she said no, I felt not just a normal amount of rejection, but I felt angry I felt like she had done something wrong by saying no to me at thirteen, which is so creepy.

Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean, don't you notice that if you reject a man, the only way he'll accept it as if you're like, I have a boyfriend.

I've never rejected, not even that.

Yeah, that's just my like so that I don't get murdered.

I'm like, I have a boyfriend.

Yeah, it's true.

I'm trying to be better about being honest.

Well, I mean that just yeah, it doesn't It doesn't work for me only if it's someone who I know is not going to kill me, right right, which right, you don't know, you don't ever know.

I don't ever have a good reasonable But yes.

What a great thing to note that she says no, You're like, fuck.

You, yeah, and what the fuck do you mean?

No?

This programming is just being thrust upon all of these young men, and I'm sure men who are actually attracted to these women.

I'm going to say, so, yeah, this is like affecting them the rage.

Yeah, if you don't even want to date girls and you're feeling that, I can only imagine what straight boys are now.

They're responding to that culture totally.

And I think that even though it's a very like IBLP training, I think that has really infiltrated even secular America, just like in the toxic masculinity and the response to rejection from women, or there's a big thing in Bill Gothard's teaching about like dressing modestly, especially for women and basically looking.

At our skirts.

I know is so cut by the way.

Clothing clothing soap.

I love that I've been to that kind of but yeah, like very very victim blamey, you know, like the epitome of what what was she wearing?

Right?

I think the ib LP is that what Yeah, okay, it sounds like it's a disease.

As you said it.

It is one of the most abusive, not that you can like rank things, but it is just pure abuse.

It's it is training people to be brainwashed victims, yes, and training them also to make sure that they don't feel empowered to tell on leadership because that would potentially like be a negative picture of the church and that would be worse than anything.

Well, so, so many of the churches we talk about are like that, I feel.

I think it's so interesting because most I mean, I don't I don't know if we count ib LP as a cult, but there.

But compared to cults, it's so interesting because, like you said, instead of it being like Bill Gothard is directly interacting with all of these people, he's.

Just empowering all these men, yes.

To dominate and to control and to not give their families a say in their lives.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean the question about what franchise franchise, the.

Question about what the men were learning was such a great question, Lola.

And at first I was excited because You're like, we were studying and I was like wonderful.

And then you're like the Bible.

Yeah, I'm like cool.

Yeah, So was their mathematics.

Oh, like in the homeschool?

Yeah, there was.

I don't I don't recall us like specifically always doing like the IBLP homeschool got you.

We we started in books and then there were like computer homeschool programs as well, and so we kind of graduated to that.

But the most important thing, regardless of whatever else you know, is to know the Bible and to know how to like convert people.

Basically, there is one of the principles.

There's like twenty five principles of IBLP, and one of them is persuasion.

It's a principle to teach people.

And the definition is something like I'm going to get it wrong, but it's something along the lines of helping somebody understand what is actually correct.

Huh oh, how kind?

Right?

Yeah, oh gosh, thank you.

Yeah.

Whether they want it or not, it's it's in the Shiny Happy People documentary.

It's like a very quick thing.

But I paused and read it and I was like, oh, that is so gross and manipulative.

And to tout that as a virtue or something that should that everybody should aspire to one funny story just because I'll forget it later.

As an example of like the authority that my father felt like he had over us.

The moment any of us turned eighteen, he would drive all of us to go vote and would give us a sheet of paper and say this is what to do.

Damn, you don't even have to research it.

Damn, here's all the answers for you.

And at a certain point I started saying, well, that doesn't feel good.

I don't I don't like we talk about the Democrats all being uninformed voters and they just voted for Obama because he was black, like all of the awful awful things right that I can't believe that I thought or said or wrote on my Facebook page.

And I remember one election, it was like a mid term, so it wasn't a presidential.

But one of the really really big things of IBLP is like political change, like grooming these young kids to grow up to be Christian leaders who also like infiltrate politics and thus change the laws of the nation.

Josh nation, Yes, which.

I feel like has exactly been what's happened.

Yeah, people like Josh Holly.

I don't know if you specifically IBLP, but like a weirdo.

Anyway, he picked me up from work one night and I knew that the voting thing was going to come up because I hadn't yet voted, and he knew that, and so he asked me, and I said, you know, I don't think I'm going to vote in this election.

I just I don't have time to research and stuff.

And he said, well, I'll give you the paper and I was like, no, I would like to do my own research and decide who I would like to vote for.

And he went off like I I actually wrote about it in my journal and read that journal entry recently, and there were so many things he said that I didn't remember.

But he was like, you're just like Lottie Dot, like voting is so important.

Isis could be at our door next week and you'd be twiddling your thumbs that I'd be screaming like come here, and you would just be standing there and you would get us all killed.

And it was like Isis was a really big threat back then.

Yeah, that was like the big thing.

And and I remember just saying, yeah, I'm not going to do it.

And he said for you, Well, here's the kicker.

He goes, Aaron, do you believe in God?

And I said yeah, like he just picked me up from the church that I work at.

And he said, well, then, in the name of Jesus, I command you to vote.

And I said, you are taking the Lord's name in vain and refuse to accept that.

This is the best Christian fight of.

All I felt.

So it was it was how I should have felt in that biology class.

So I was like, I was like, oh, I said the thing that shut them down, and yeah, I didn't vote that election, And that in its in itself felt like one of the most empowering like first apps for me.

I think I moved out like a year later.

I was just taking small steps to like separate myself from this man who had enmeshed himself not just emotionally but legally, like on paper, Like I because my parents got divorced, I was now the co owner of all the cars like he.

He kind of treated me as the as the wife legally, and so I was like, shit, I want to be removed from all these things.

And he had a hissy fit.

He didn't know what to do with himself.

Delayed, delayed, delayed.

I had a joint bank account with him, like it was.

It was so wild to think about the therapy.

Can't even that, like, thank god, I'm in therapy.

Yeah, I mean that's yeah.

Yeah.

I want to just throw something out there that I'm curious about y'all's thoughts on.

I don't know if we've ever touched upon this, but like, for example, I read a lot in my ex group that a lot of the things that we were taught to do, such as being an example or a total fucking weirdo, was not actually to convert anybody.

It was more to keep us isolated.

So that we didn't leave because you know, no one ever joined our church because of me, but a lot of people bullied me.

Yeah.

I also just thought my church was so weird that I didn't want to invite people never, Like every Sunday they'd be like, invite your friends, they're going to Hell, and I'd be like, yeah, I don't want to invite them here, you guys are so weird.

And then I would invite people and they'd be like, this is where you go every Sunday.

Cool, Well, mine was just three hours of the most boring shit you could possibly imagine.

So I was like, I don't think anyone will, Like I wouldn't.

Make my friends go like so spend the night, Like if they had to spend the night on Saturday night, they would have to go with us on Sunday morning.

And I'd be like you're coming and they'd be like yeah.

And Mormonism, the conversion is a genuine goal because they are a church of growth.

People convert to Mormonism.

Use like kind of makes sense.

I feel like even just from a business standpoint, like I feel like it's like a it's a hub of like it's a social network and anyways, Michael.

Michael did not have that element.

Speaking of influence, I feel like something in reading through my old journals that I realized is I had secular friends.

But I could tell by the way that I was writing, because I was writing from a brainwash person's perspective, that part of my reason for wanting to hang out with them or to be nice to them and all that stuff was so that they would believe in God or see Christ in me.

And so thinking back through all of the actions that I took or days or years that I was friends with people just so that they might get saved is so sad because I never really back then.

I don't think I had many like true, genuine, agenda free relationships.

Wow, that's so sad.

Yeah, it is sad.

It's also I don't you generally you think of agenda based friendships as they will give me something like sure, I will get a role from this person.

But if you wanted to save them, which is so interesting, and like, what would happen if you saved them?

What would that mean about you?

It would mean I saved one person, because I mean I was not very good at it.

I had a friend who their family was also IBLP their dad.

Basically any time would go over, I hated their dad.

He was so judgmental, constantly, like it was his job.

So we would just be there playing like children, and he'd be like, so, Aaron, how many people have you led to Christ?

And I'd be like like, He's like, yeah, like the prayer of Salvation, like how many people of you?

And I'm like, well, I'm twelve, I'm homeschooled, so I'm mostly surrounded by my siblings.

And I was like none, that's really none?

Oh my god, do you know how?

Do you even know how?

And he was not only IBLP, but he was like one of his legit street preachers, like he would go to Miami Beach with signs and like all that shit, so like one of those guys.

So he felt that at my age of twelve, I should have already, you know, prayed the sinner's prayer whether they want to or not, with like sixty one hundred.

I mean, good you.

For admitting none.

I would have been like it was so like a few.

I don't know, probably couple I did.

I did delay.

I think I was like, oh, let me think zero.

Actually yeah, it's like, well, there's well no, he didn't know.

It was like going through there, going back to a previous question like ages ago, like how did my parents accept the mee being gay and all that stuff.

So basically I kept experimenting with friends, and experimenting got into like actual what I would consider more like sexual activity as opposed to just like more innocent stuff.

And at the age of fifteen, my my mom and dad one day invited me to their room, which could have been a good thing, but I had a weird feeling, and my dad plopped three sheets of printed Internet history onto the bed, Oh no, and said what is this?

Oh no.

And one thing I don't know if I've ever had the conscious though or said it out loud, is like the fact that they knew it had to be me, right, you fucking knew right totally, and chose not to address it, chose not to what I And at the age of fifteen, I was getting near planning to come out, and what I believed that meant for me was hell, an eternal damnation that I wasn't going to be a Christian anymore.

But I was kind of in a place where I was ready to accept that for myself if it just meant letting this fucking secret go.

So sat down with my parents.

My mom started balling, she had to leave the room, and I kind of like told them about my life so far, the life that they weren't privy to, the molestation that had occurred up to that point, the U just you know, experimenting with friends and all that stuff.

And I definitely was coming at it from a place of shame, like, oh, I'm a bad person, but at least, oh God, this feels finally good to get it all out there.

And I didn't know what I thought the end of the conversation was going to be, but my dad basically listened and at the end of it was like, well, you know, there's help for this, and I said, yeah, I get you know.

I think i'd like heard things about, like, you know, gay people becoming straight, But then that would also mean I had to admit that I was attracted to mend and I didn't want to do that, right, So I was like yeah, and he said I need to talk to the pastors, and I was like, you have to tell our pastors no, And so I just felt like the black sheep of the church for a while.

I wasn't able to serve.

I wasn't allowed to serve in like children's ministry anymore.

I wasn't able to like sing on stage.

I wasn't allowed to like all the things that I like.

What happened to my mom?

And she was excommunicating like except that I was still forced to go every single week?

Right, And so I guess basically like the church agreed to pay for therapy for me once a week, so I had therapy once a week for a year.

Therapy was in quotation marks, right, Okay, yes, so what does this church or the church recommend for somebody who.

Is conversion therapy?

Okay, yeah, I don't know if they call it that, but it's therapy for people with same sex attraction.

The word gay is not not a thing, like you have same sex attraction.

Same sex attraction sounds hotter than gay.

Does it mean I've never thought of it that way?

Yeah?

Sex it yeah so many So no, you can't say gay.

Okay, Yeah, there was no way I was that.

It was I was demon possessed.

It was because I was molested.

Even though I was molested after I already like very clearly had feelings for guys.

So what I learned in conversion therapy, which I did that along with reading so many pam blitz which every fifteen year old kid wants to do on top of homework, so many pamphlets, so watching DVDs of like testimonies of people saying like this is my life, now I'm married, this is my wife, blah blah blah, and a lot of those were produced by Exodus International.

That's what I was going to ask about.

Yeah, yeah, So Exodus International, for those who don't know, is a now disbanded, but they were like the big ex gay in quotes organization for like thirty years or something like that, and basically at the end of it, the leaders came out and said, we have not seen one successful case.

Wow, we ourselves are not changed.

We are still attracted.

One of the one of the guys that was like a CEO or something ended up like getting into a relationship with another guy that was like ahead of Exodus.

Oh my god, juicy, I know.

Fu while the organization was still there, but I obviously was coming into it at a time where they were still happening.

So I went to conferences and were you like, were you taking this literally where you like I will be ungay.

Yeah, yeah, I think one of the things looking back at like teenage Aaron, I really wanted to do the right thing, yeah, and whether that was like religiously or interpersonally or definitely with this, like I wanted to be the good kid.

And I felt that by doing this therapy, doing all these things, that it would happen for me, that it would that it would go away.

And that's kind of what is taught with Exodus International and any conversion therapy, like if you do these things, if you heal these core wounds from your past.

So for example, the big ones that I kind of harped on was like, okay, molestation and bad relationship ship with my dad.

Never really had a great relationship with my dad, so is part of it his fault.

I got like really angry at him for a while that I had struggled with this, and then just kind of came to the realization, all right, well, I need to have a better relationship with him, which actually made me go into even more toxic obedience with him in like as the head of the household and everything, because I felt that by you know, obeying better or having a better relationship with him, whatever, that meant that would be part of what.

Having made me straight gay removed?

Yeah, wow, and it clearly didn't work.

I'm just so curious about the I mean, I heard you say on another podcast you don't really remember what you guys talked about in their area.

Yeah, yeah, wow, you did your research.

What podcast was that?

I don't remember?

But are there any like things you have in your head that came from that experience?

Yeah?

Basically, like the main things I walked away from that therapy experience with was the belief that I wasn't really gay.

It was a sin, it was a flaw.

It was like a thing that was broken about me, that I could heal it, or that God could heal it if he so willed, and that if I just did the right things, it would go away.

That was basically what I walked away with.

And so what ends up happening, not just for me, but for so many people that have gone through conversion therapy is we really wanted to go away because we've been teased, We've seen we've felt like the outsiders.

We see everybody getting married and apparently like very attracted to the opposite sex, and it's like, why am I not normal, Well, like, what's wrong with me?

Yeah, this heteronormative fairy tale that not only are you left out of, but also you're going to hell.

Right right for something that I didn't like that you don't want, Yeah, but I don't want that.

I'm not doing on purpose and doing all the right things, and it's still not going away.

And so the message that I internalized from that, from years and years of trying my best, was, Oh, there's something extra wrong with me that I can't get this to.

Stop because I'm doing all the right thing and you're like a.

Very I mean, I'm assuming you you seem like a very like type a person.

Then I get this.

You know, like, and so I just imagine the pain being so excruciating.

It's very Yeah, I'm.

It's just very hard to think about what must have been going on for you.

Yeah, And I have to imagine it creates and you can tell me if it does or it doesn't, but I imagine it creates an OCD like thought.

Process where like, was that a gay thought?

Was that a gay thought?

Was that a gay thought?

Yeah?

Yeah, I mean, and then you know, let's say I had gay thoughts two days in a row.

Oh, my God, the devil is winning.

And I'm like slipping more and more into that.

And I mean, growing up, how I did sheltered.

How I did I didn't know, or so I thought.

I mean, clearly I knew gay people because they just exist, but I didn't know any gay people.

I didn't see gay people around me.

Anytime they were on TV, it would be like, you know, parents would like change the channel really quick or even like cover up the TV like it was so evil tabool.

Yeah, And that was that was one of the things that finally finally in my late twenties where I started questioning it.

I listening to a recent podcast, heard that one of you is sober, in one of yous in alan On, I'm also sober.

I'm sober.

I got into the program and one of the things that's just radical honesty and making an inventory of like everything you've ever done.

And I remember I literally wrote a note for my sponsor, which in short, because we were about to go over my sex inventory that day and I knew that for me, my sex inventory was homosex and I basically gave him a disclaimer.

I don't remember what it said exactly, but it was basically like you're about to hear a lot of gay shit, but just so you know, I'm not kay oh my god.

And so even then, even like as a nearly you know, thirty year old adult, I was still so so hanging on to those teachings of when I was fifteen.

Of course, so even though I like had still you know, slipped and whatever.

But at that point, I was like five years celibate, and I was like very proud of myself and you know, felt like I was heading in the right direction.

I'd been dating a girl for two years and yeah, and we never did any thing beyond kissing.

But I was also at a point in my life where I was practicing honesty anyway.

So like the church that I mentioned that I was working at, in my job interview for them, the question was simply, what's your relationship with God?

Like, and I started crying immediately, and I basically told them like my whole story, and it ended with, you know, this is a struggle I have, but I know that God has a better plan for me and wants me to marry a woman, which is in any other job interview situation, the weirdest could you imagine somebody talking about like a normal job interview, but that church was like, thank you so much for sharing your vulnerability, like it just made so much sense to them.

Yeah.

So I worked there for years and years, met my girlfriend there and told her before we started dating, this is my life story.

Only ever been with guys.

I've only ever been attracted to you, guys.

But I know that God wants me to be ord a woman all that stuff, and she, you know, at some point also was like I really want to save it for marriage and I was like, yes, absolutely perfect, no, definitely.

So anyway, she broke up with me, thank god, because I was determined to like go to they at the end.

Yeah, I had already asked her parents for like for to be able to marry her, and I was looking at buying a ring.

But because I was being honest with her and telling her like, hey, today, I looked at a guide today and last night I had a weird dream, like a sexy homelowe dream.

Whatever, she finally broke up with me, and it was probably one of the best decisions's she's ever made.

And it was the best thing for me because it broke my heart and it shattered, it shattered this like oh, I thought I finally was going to get it.

I thought I finally was going to accomplish that goal that I've had for so long, and this was the person I was going to do that with.

And out of that, like deep Bottom, I was the forest rock body.

Yeah.

Yeah, uh.

Went to the program and anyway, I was doing my doing my stabs back to the fourth step with my sponsor said you're about to hear a bunch of gay shit whatever whenever my sex inventory and he just kind of slowly nod it and he goes, so, I don't want to accuse you of anything, and please know that I don't mean this in a bad way.

I just want to point out that all the names you listed were guys' names.

And I said, yeah, there are lots of straight men who only have sex with men.

And I said that, completely convinced of the work, that idiotic words coming out of my mouth.

Wow, And he said, no, there are not aaron That's not a thing.

Oh what did you feel when he said that?

Well?

I thought he was wrong, Like, you just don't understand I'm straight.

What part of this did you not get?

But yeah, it was slowly as I kept doing the steps and kept also like just being in a new environment that was not heavily Christian.

It was just people from all different kinds of religions with their own interpretations of what God was, people of all different sexualities, and nothing was like through the lens of the teachings that I had grown up with.

So it was just seeing the world and seeing people in a whole new light.

I finally started like giving myself permission to ask questions, which in all of these things, whether it's Assemblies of God or IBOP or Exodus International, don't ask questions that contradict like anything.

So I remember one of the the big aha moments for me was, Okay, so God loves straight people getting together.

He just loves it.

I know that God sees a straight couple on a date, on a coffee date, and it's beautiful and he's cheering and he's going, yes, they're probably gonna eventually have sex, and that's amazing.

God is a.

Purview guys once they're married.

Only once they're married, of course, But like he's like, I was taught that he rejoices when he sees two people, straight people doing that, and so I was like, so two straight people, it's a really beautiful thing.

But if it's a man and a man or a woman and a woman, somehow that same exact scenario is evil.

That doesn't make sense.

And just allowing myself to have that simple thought started really cracking the facade.

So that turned into Okay, if God loves everyone, and maybe what if this isn't a sin for me?

What if it just is part of who I am?

And what if God not only doesn't hate it about me but actually sees it as something that's beautiful about me?

And just ask myself that question, which I had never come close to anything like that again, just started to like chip away, and I started to accept myself really for the first time, and I did the classic thing of like, I'm bisexual, but I'll probably still marry a woman.

Like It was a very slow story, just like I okay now, but eventually coming to that place of being able to say and accept that about myself and not see it as a flaw or something evil or something to politically fight against or any of these things.

It was just a part of me and something that might actually be a great part of me.

And so for the last however many years, I can't count you guys, I don't know how.

Yeah.

Since then, it's it's been a journey of like undoing a lot of those old core beliefs and being able to just have things like normal friendships where I'm not like trying to convince them into my like evangela goalies them.

Is that a word you guys?

Did I mention I'm nut since eleven PM, Yeah, to like evangelize them into like brainwashing them, which was seen as a good thing.

So you get to be a human being.

Yeah, having actual authentic connection with other people.

Yeah, And I remember so, like I said, I was like five years celibate.

I did the thing because I'm type A and I want to be a good student.

I did the thing where I went through like a year of AA and no sex, no like relationships or anything.

My sponsor was even like, you can have sex please, but I was like, no, I want to wait for the year.

So I did.

And I remember it just being I was like, oh yeah, yeah, it's like that was fucking great.

This is thank god.

It was a good experience being no, I'm sorry, having sex for the first I could do so after having sex for the first time after five years, it was such a wonderful experience, and I remember thinking like, yeah, I'm gonna do this because I'm gonna do that, and being able to have that experience and not feel the deep shame afterwards and being able to say like that just happened, that it just is one of my therapists.

I'm so so grateful for her.

Like one of the key things I'll take away from her is like as far as she was the one I was seeing like during that time, and I was again a good student, so I was keeping track of like names, how many people, like from the time I was fucking four.

Wow, Like I knew exactly how many people and in hindsight wasn't that many back then, but it was like a shameful number to me.

And I remember one day kind of getting embarrassed and like I stopped get and she was like, good because that number doesn't have to mean anything.

Yeah.

Oh I counted for a long time.

Yeah.

I also counted wrote all the names down my father, No, he didn't brought it to my therapist, and I was like, I'm a bit worried about this, and I said, these are just people that I think are cute.

Yeah, yeah, Oh my god, was like BJ.

I was like, cool, cool, cool, you know that there's just shame around sexuality.

I think for even if it's straight sucks.

You know, like like it's just in our culture and narrative and it's so unfortunate.

I was going to say, the fact that you were able to have that sex after that period and not feel shame, it's so cool, it's incredibly impressive.

Yeah, power of sobriety be doing.

Like, yeah, I had shame after straight ass sex for years.

Yeah, straight ass sex or straight up okay, a.

Little bit of both.

I was Mormon, remember.

Oh yeah, okay, what do you say to somebody who's do you constructing beliefs about sexuality separating it from the religious views they were growing up and in general, And then I'm gonna ask a follow up question after that.

I would say to them, you're gay.

That's what I would say to my younger self.

Yeah, like, hey, you're gay, and that's okay.

Yeah, just that simple message, but like really accepting that fully for what those words mean.

I think the the cognitive dissonance was there for so long with not just ideal P stuff, but with the conversion therapy teachings I had questions I had, Well, that doesn't make sense because like I met this person, they're okay, and they seem really nice.

They didn't seem possessed or they were like a nice person.

Am I a bad person for thinking that they're nice?

So I would say, if you have questions and you are specifically in an environment that doesn't all allow or encourage questions, find somebody around you to have those conversations with, whether it's somebody else in that same place as you that you kind of test the waters and be like okay, wait can we can we talk about this?

Because I don't think.

This is like.

Nowadays, there's so many more resources online of people that have probably been where you're at and have come out of it.

I remember when Exodus International was disbanded because I was still very deeply brainwashed.

I didn't see that and see their statements as oh wait, wait, this isn't real.

I saw it as oh no, the devil is when.

It yeah, because like one of the one of the young menim in coin in my life keeps saying like, but what if this is the devil tricking me?

Yeah?

Yeah, you know, and like how do you that cognitive bios?

How do you respond to that.

I mean, I don't believe the devil's real, so that's easier for me now.

But yeah, but I heard the other day somebody on TikTok or something talking about like you when you say to a Christian, you know, the feelings you have are not the Holy Spirit, it's group think.

It's you know, the music and whatever like.

Or if you feel afraid, that's not the devil, that's demons.

That's your your body telling you something's wrong.

But you're trained from such a young age to believe that any like happy, joyful feeling is God, the Holy Spirit, Jesus, it's a good thing, and any like slightly uncomfortable thing is demons and devil and temptation and whatever.

But also it truly is the perspective about it.

Like I I now live a life that my younger self would probably have just seen this objective other person been like, well that person is clearly deceived and they're going to hell and all this stuff.

However, nowadays I don't want to kill myself.

Nowadays I can walk around relax, and I'm not trying to modify my voice to be lower, or walk a certain way, or lie to people all the time about what my testimony is or whatever it is, Like I can just be a human and I don't know, I would say to that young person, like, just keep asking questions.

I think the process is so different for everybody, and for me, the fact that it was from the start of conversion therapy to when I came out thirteen years I'm sure that's longer, Like that's a long fucking time time.

And yeah, but if I gosh, I hope the best for them.

I mean, like, looking online, like I said, I knew the Exodus was disbanded, and so I was looking for desperately for testimonies of people saying to to affirm what I believe.

Yeah, and all I could find was the opposite.

And I was like, have they wiped them from the internet?

Have they?

Like I just couldn't believe that these people were correct, Like I had to believe what I grew up with.

And yeah, I firmly believe that the church and its teachings, as well as conversion therapy stole decades of my life.

Wow, of just being able to live comfortably in my own skin and be an authentic person.

And now you're walking around feeling good.

So gay into heighth ass genes.

I love that.

It's like it was just about allowing yourself some space to ask the things you were too scared.

To ask, because it's just always it always comes down to that, Yeah, yeah, talking to.

Someone or just allowing yourself to not be afraid to like look in that little corner in your brain and be like, but.

What if because your brain is unconsciously asking it.

And when I think of cognitive dissonance, I think of like two just like completely opposing notes playing in your brain and like.

One of them is unconscious and it's like so loud.

Yeah, yeah, it's just yeah, sometimes you just got to ask the questions.

Yeah, scary questions.

Well, I know that you are no longer a Christian, but if there were somebody who still very much believes in Christianity and loves Jesus and doesn't want to leave Christianity, Like, how have you seen people be able to reconcile those things?

Yeah?

Healthily?

My sponsor is one of them.

Really.

Yeah, he's gay.

He's been married for twenty something years.

I don't remember where they got married, but some really cool state that allowed it back then.

I do know people who still are very very firm in their faith and go to church and all that stuff.

I just know that that's not me.

Part of my deconstruction was not just asking all the questions about my sexuality, but asking all the questions like finally allowing myself to look at arguments against the Bible and God as opposed to like only coming back with scripture and all that.

So allowing myself to like actually look at videos from an atheist perspective, or listening to podcasts where people just talked very open and freely about their journey from faith to where they are now and hearing them as like, Oh, these aren't bad people, these aren't ill meaning people, these are just I actually kind of like them.

I actually might think I am one of these people.

And again, that process took a few years too.

But you gotta be patient with yourself, you know, Yeah, because lifetime of beliefs take a better time to undo.

Certainly.

Yeah, Now, are we missing anything about your story?

That's I mean, I know there's so much I want to see the show.

I want to see that.

Yeah, yea.

I'm writing a book, yeah, of course, which is part of the reason I've been going through my old journals.

It's tentatively currently titled Journal of the Gay Christian.

So it's re examining those old journal entries, which is coming from the perspective of a very brainwashed type a person and being able to reflect on those modern day and then also just like telling stories maybe that aren't attached to a journal because I didn't journal that day, but it was like a formative moment for me.

There's one journal entry that I just laugh.

I can't do anything but laugh because it's basically me describing a very like not even a sexual dream, but just ay an intimate dream.

It says something like, last night, I dreamed that I cuddled naked with a friend, and I know that that's not actually sexual desire.

What that means is that I'm really longing for close male friendships and that will basically like lead to those feelings going away.

And I read that and I was just like Okham's raiser, buddy, you're gay like.

The mental pretzel.

Oh my god, Yeah, I can't imagine.

It's all pseudoscience and pretzels and not the good kind.

Ye not give me a welt.

I want to go to the mall and get a wesel.

I ordered them at the movie theaters recently.

They are gigantic.

Oh I've seen this huge?

No, I haven't.

It's so so many calories, I'm sure, but anyway, they're insane and important and important for this podcast.

We are sponsored by what.

We are not, but I would eat some for free and if offered.

Where can people find you and your hilarious videos and you're acting skills?

Oh my gosh, you can find me on social media anywhere at Aaron Goldie boy a A R O N G O L D Y boy.

If you're really curious to seeing my acting work.

IMDb is good.

It was just in The Hunting Wives, which is the gayest show.

It's the biggest show in the world.

Right, Oh my god, I still have to watch it.

You'll see me an episode, fine, can't wait link and you'll miss it.

But it's whatever, fun, so fun.

You're going they're going to ask you back?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Oh, they're going to get renewed they have to obviously.

Yeah.

People are obsessed, Yeah, obsessed.

Yeah, yeah, it's such a gay show.

I mean, but like, what just taking a moment to celebrate what an incredible arc you've had, Like you're on this beautiful, cool journey and yeah, I like going from Bill Gothard to being on the Hunting Lapses so cool.

It makes me happy.

Yeah, yeah, me too.

Congratulations.

Yeah.

Thanks.

We're also starting to do screenings of a new movie that I'm in called We're So Dead.

It is a horror comedy that takes place in a restaurant, so it's servers versus the like crazy Karen and it's oh my god.

We're doing screens around the country so you can check out I think it's a weird So Dead movie dot com to see if there's a screening near you, and I might be there if I'm not shooting Hunting Wive season two.

Perfect.

Thank you so much for being on playing.

Wow, Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, what an unbelievable conversation.

I know, I know, I don't know exactly what to ask you, because I'm guessing conversion therapy would not be something you would join.

Yeah, I mean, if there's any any new listeners.

At the end of the episode, usually we ask if I would join the cult that we've discussed, and unfortunately many a time I would, uh and my naive tea, but conversion therapy.

That's a hard one.

I definitely have like a more fluid sexuality and have since I was young, And there were so many things that I felt super guilty about, but that oddly wasn't one of them.

Maybe it's very deeply unconsciously like torturing me because there was definitely anti gay roderick being spread around me and the two bite twos.

Is it just being like a wrong thing to do?

But yeah, I absolutely hate that anybody was forced to go through this.

It breaks my heart.

I know, I know, I yeah.

You know.

Interestingly, even when I was a little Mormon, were you.

Like a small child being Mormon or were you just like a tiny bit.

Mormon depending on the eraic either one?

Okays.

As a preteen, shall we say the Mormon Church was very I mean has historically been very not LGBTQ friendly, and you know, campaigning against gay marriage and.

All this stuff.

But I don't know, like that part is like never penetrated for me.

Yeah, I'm very straight.

I've always been very straight.

But in middle school, maybe we've talked about this, I was one of like three kids in the Gay Straight Alliance because I would be so mad when people.

Would be mean to the queer kids.

That's not like I guess that's just my mom's values, just like be kind to everyone.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I got really lucky with my parents, even though they were generationally raised in the two by twos, like their parents, their grandparents, there was so much guilt about so many things, being selfish, you know, just not being good quote unquote.

But to their.

Credit, my parents credit, they had a very open mind towards people of different sexualities and of different races.

And that's probably why I don't have the guilt about that particular subject.

So I dodged some definite bullets there.

That's nice, but.

Yeah, it's just so cruel.

And it really needs to sup because yeah, like like Aaron so eloquently points out, it doesn't fucking work, So oh my god.

No.

And the head of the that organization ex is International.

I was actually looking him up and he's like really vocal anti conversion therapy, yes speaker.

I don't know if he counts as an activists.

We should totally talk to him, we really should.

And I was just gonna say, Aaron references it and the conversation I believe, but like he said that the leader of Exodus International himself was like, hey, this never worked ever.

Yeah, because of course not.

Of course these people are who they are, no judgment to anybody for being Christian.

But in a time where Christian nationalism is rising and there's like this cultural desire to go back to quote traditional family values, I think it's important now more than ever because generally what that means is it's going to include a lot of hate and yeah, yeah, and a lot of conversion therapy almost certainly.

So yeah, I mean I.

Was surprised that there wasn't one person who is by who is like, yeah, I guess I'm just gonna go with women and call myself straight now.

It was like no, every I mean maybe but still identifying as gay.

It was just you know, yeah, I'd be curious to ask him if there were any bye boys who like, you know, went with it for a little bit and then like yeah, I'm curious.

I'm so curious to know what that what that was all about?

Anyway?

Uh fuck, conversion therapy is the point.

YEP, And uh watch Aaron everywhere that he's appearing, watch him on the Hunting Wives, follow him on Instagram, and uh as always follow US rate US five stars and remember to follow your gut, watch out for red.

Flags, and never ever trust me.

Hye bye.

This has been an exactly right production hosted by Me Lola.

Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth.

Our senior producer is Gee Holley.

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Kuttner.

Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark and Daniell Kramer.

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