Trust me?

Do you trust me?

Right?

Ever lead you a story?

Trust?

This is the truth, the only truth.

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to trust me.

The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two rebels who've actually experienced it.

And I am low La Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth.

And today our guest is Theo Pratt, survivor of New Zealand religious culed Gloria Vale, and writer of the book Unveiled, A Story of Surviving Gloria Vale.

She is going to tell us, ah so much crazy stuff about growing up on the strictly controlled commune where girls and women all wore the same identical dress and head coverings, where people were assigned new names, where no one was taught the real days of the week, and we're smacking ladies as they were called, kept the children obedient.

This story is so wild and fascinating.

She'll tell us about Neville Cooper, is self proclaimed divine authority, her rebellious streak that led her to imagine escaping on a tandem bicycle, and how she felt when a documentary film crew came to record the community.

Also the dramatic story of how she got out without even knowing where she was in the world.

We have never had a conversation quite like this.

Yeah, it's it's a really unique and harrowing and fascinating story.

And we have both gotten so many dms from people telling us to do an episode on Gloria Belle.

So I'm really happy we have finally been able to do it.

Me too, I had no idea.

Yeah, same, same, Well, we won't give too much away now that's not so before we talk to THEO.

What's your cultist thing, Megan?

Okay, So I've been following this story about the group, the University of Cosmic Intelligence.

I do believe we brought it up a couple of months ago because there were people missing, and we haven't done too much of a deep dive on it.

But essentially the leader has been arrested, but he's still running the group from jail.

Can you give me a refresher on what happened with her?

So there's this convicted child minister who claims to be a god sent to earth.

Perhaps he recognize the trope sure Cuote leaders.

Yeah, he started a new religious movement.

It's called the University of cosmic Intelligence.

It's a pretty good name, pretty good name, but he is in jail.

And what's been fascinating to me is how much he's been able to control his followers still from jail.

And we see this with many different people Keither and Nary, Warren, Jeffs.

And I was kind of looking more into how does that actually work in their favor, And there are several ways that it does.

The absence kind of makes their myth rise, you know, and then you kind of transference ask put more stuff onto them that maybe you wouldn't even what do you mean?

Like I remember at the end of the Keithernary Naxam documentary, there's a woman who was kind of on the edge of getting out, but she seemed to be getting more caught up in his teachings when he wasn't around her, because it was like she was filling in the blinks with what she needed and wanted to hear.

Like people can just be the fantasy.

Yeah, So I'm interested to see how this continues to go.

We would love to talk to a survivor of this.

Certainly, was there a news story, like someone it's come out that he's controlling them still?

Yeah, yeah, and just you know, there's still six missing people.

Oh my god, that's it.

It's a deep dive.

Yeah, we need to talk to a survivor because there's there's lots of different elements that play in that group in particular.

But I am just I'm curious about that missing charismatic leader and them getting more powerful when they're gone.

M yeah, no, that's super interesting.

The only thing I can liken it too is when you have a breakup and you're able to fantasize, oh my god, and idealize the person because they're not they're like nagging you or like doing that annoying thing they do.

So they become this like, oh, what a beautiful relationship that was, and you're like, yeah, if you actually look at your whole journal entries, which I have had to do, you're like, no, no, that was not perfect.

Yes, I imagine it's all much much more heightened when.

It's your kids.

It's a great that's a great parallel.

Thank you for bringing it back to real life because I do the same.

Shit.

What about you, what's your cultiest thing of the week.

I was just looking at this article.

A few friends sent me to two of our previous guests.

Actually it's about them.

It's a Guardian article about Patrick Ryan and Joseph Kelly, who are too ethical cult interventionists that we have previously had on as guests.

Highly recommend their episode.

It's been years at this point, but I just remember loving them.

They're so amazing.

It just kind of gets into what cult intervention looks like now because a lot of people still have this misconception of it as being this like nineteen seventies deprogramming thing, which is not thing anymore, was very unethical, often very culty in itself.

But yeah, it just kind of like goes through some stories of people they've done interventions with and how they try to do it ethically, and you know, it not always successfully.

It's very difficult when you are trying to just reconnect people to their family versus like, you know, beats new ideas into their head.

So what are some of the methods that they suggest?

Okay, so this part of that was interesting because I don't know if we talked about this when we did our episode.

It says, for instance, one of the tricky parts they explained is communicating with the person who has been given tools to block out other people's perspectives.

This set of tools or ideas is what they call a group's gatekeeper.

In one case, they determined that the gatekeeper for one woman was that she perceived her spouse as dogmatic and fundamentalist.

But not spiritual.

So what they did was they began to like try to help her husband be more spiritual, to reconnect with her, oh, so that he could be someone that she trusted more.

Again, that's cool, And you know, I think this number might be a little excessive, but one of their ideas is a process called fifty things.

You have to find fifty things that you can agree with the person on, because once you agree on what's good about x, y and z and so forth, then you are more of a position to maybe offer some questions about that thing.

Okay, So it's just it's just different versions of kind of the same stuff we talk about all the time, which is the human connection and not being too aggressive and their ideas.

They have had many experiences with clients who did push back too hard and then they lost that family member to the cult for many, many years.

Heartbreaking.

But of course it's not a one size fits all process.

I'm sure they have myriad stories and I kind of think we should have them back on.

I do too.

I do too.

Let's do it.

Let's do it.

What's the name of the article.

The name of the article is how do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

Manipulate them into thinking it was their idea?

It's on the Guardian and Nick em Nevis wrote it.

Oo.

Okay, there's so much interesting stuff in there, and hopefully we'll talk to them again.

So yeah, let's do it.

As for now, should we get into it with the Oh yes we should.

Let's go.

Welcome theopratt to trust me.

Thank you so much for joining us us from all the way across the world, Kyota.

Yeah, thanks for heading me.

Yeah, we were both fascinated by your story and by this group.

I really didn't know anything about it.

We've been getting emails for years to cover it and we just.

Like didn't do this.

And I think, and we'll get to this later.

I think they did a really good job, like kind of covering it as like a normal thing.

Well, we'll get to.

It, okay, Yeah, yeah, yeah, So you spent the first eighteen years of your life in this cult in New Zealand.

You call it a cult, yes, do you use that language?

Yes, yeah, okay, it's a cult.

That is our first cult from that country.

Yeah.

So can you first just start us off by telling us how your parents ended up in this group called Gloria Vale.

So they both joined secretly when mom was born in Auckland and the cultures in the Southland which is the lower part of New Zealand, and her be for King's family the depth they would joining, and so she went with him to visit and just stayed.

And then my dad was traveling around the South Island and was I think studying to be a medic at the time in the navy.

And then the people who are already in the cult and Gloridal were preaching at the square in the local city and he was there instead of got broked in that way, and then he had packed up all the stuff and joined that week.

Got weird.

Yeah, wow, what do you think they were doing in the square that was compelling?

Tradd Well?

I think Neville Cooper, the leader or his name, is often referred to as hopeful Christian.

I guess his personality.

Is very like enthusiastic and he has the ability to I guess capture people's attention, and I guess make his story and his play and sound really good, and that.

We're all here to look after each other and the world doesn't look after each other, and we're going to be one big family and that sort of thing.

And I guess we don't have that connection with your own family.

And someone's offering you a new family.

It sounds like a great idea.

Did your dad ever tell you what it was that he liked about it?

What drew him to it?

Was it?

That?

Was it?

The family thing?

I think so.

I mean, he was brought up religious as well, and like his dad passed away when he was quite young, and I guess it was a connection and that sense of family.

But I think throughout my life, I mean, it's tricky to capture my father's what he experienced back then, because right throughout my childhood and even right up until when I left war, well, he was too like mentally unwell to fully express why he joined.

So I guess it's a bit tricky to sort of explain.

Right, makes sense.

So by the time that you were born, this group that this man Neville Cooper who goes by that other name, or went by that other name, he had started the actual Gloria Belle location, right, like the farm when you were born.

Yes, so they originally started on a less rural property and they had their own individual places, but by the time I was born, they were in the more rural location where it is now and we're all living more together.

And how rural are we talking?

What's the landscape?

The landscape?

So they sit in a valley, so it's surrounded by mountains, so there's no Wi Fi coverage or cell phone coverage.

And then the closest town is about a forty minute drive, so gravel roads and yeah, wow, quite rural.

Very that's I didn't comprehend how that's a true cult, like a cult compound.

That's like the movie version of living in a cult.

Yeah, I mean so much of the story is just cult times two, you know what I mean.

It's just this man made the most extreme cult totally.

It's crazy.

Can you tell us a little bit about just like growing up in this group, Like what was life like for a child?

And general life was like quite exciting and like you're in nature and like you spent your days with your friends in the outdoors and stuff.

But very quickly, I think by the age of around five six, and when you start going to school in Glorobels, in the schools part of Gloroville, you have to wear like a head covering as a girl.

And I think that's when it's sort of sanks in that the very the difference between men and women and girls and boys, how women are under mean, under God and under their father in that real different sort of kickson, even from a very young age.

And then also the thing of that we're all the same, no one could be different, No one has their own I guess strengths or whatever.

We're all the same.

I remember five years old being told that I was never allowed to have a best framed or never allowed to have someone that I was closer to than anyone else.

Wow.

So as much as like what life was really fun and stuff, there was also these underlying things that you're sort of always afraid or skied of what was going to happen?

Right, Yeah.

The dress code is super fascinating to me because I think often when we picture like the lung dresses and I caught, we picture the flds, and at least the flds can choose the color of their dress, and in this group if you look images or videos of the women and girls, they're all in the same color, dark blue like pilgrim dress with this like head covering.

They look like Pilgrims, would you say, right, Megan, Yeah, yeah, it's like just another level I guess of cohesion and everybody looking.

The same and locked a new level in so many areas.

Like yeah, wow, like a lot of groups would be like you have to wear this, but like express yourself within that.

Yeah, we see a lot of like but not in red.

But this man was like, I like blue, It'll all be blue.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, And I think it's also a way to like separate you even more, and like if you're ever out in the in the outside world, it's really segregated you from everyone else in a way.

So it's also being the same within the community, but also really making that point that you're not of the world.

Right.

Yeah, what did the boys and men wear?

Did they all have to wear the same thing or did they have some freedom in their clothing?

No, they all sort of wore the same thing, so it tended to be like dark maybe blue trousers and like a light blue shirt.

Okay, but it couldn't be jeans.

He hated jeans for some reason.

Why why do you think he hated jeans?

Do you have any theories?

I didn't know.

I think said it was like the worldly people had jeans.

Right, So the goal was for people to see you as different or for you guys to be separated from everyone.

Like, what do you think he wanted from that?

I think part of it was that he wanted us to be seen as different, but also us to know that we were different as well.

So I think it was like a two way thing.

To be isolated.

Yeah, and how did you guys perceive the outside world?

We you perceived it as like everyone was and everyone was going to hell and everyone was sad and yeah, just that everyone was just evil.

Yeah.

Man, was that scary?

Like when you would see people on the outside, were you afraid of them?

Yeah?

A little bit, Yeah, definitely.

And I think even like thinking about it in terms of how we viewed people, they used to preach that first control was evil and contraception and that women literally murdered their babies and so like if people even visited, Like thinking about how we viewed people on the outside, if we saw a family and they only like had two kids or they didn't have kids.

We literally used to think that these women were murd like flushing whole babies down the toilet, because that's what we were told and like showed videos of like I think even that part.

You used to look at people on the outside and think, like, that's how evil they are.

They'd literally murder their kids.

That's so crazy, and so like that sort of brainwashing and that fear of the outside was really ingrained in us from like really young.

Can I ask you, because I was watching the series on Amazon that's just called Gloria Belle, and were there shows that were put on by the group for the outside world?

Can you talk about those because that seems like such a contradiction of sorts.

Yeah, So they used to have these shows that they put on every second year, and it was in winter time in New Zealand, and so they would open up for anyone on the outside to come, and it was almost like a way to recruit people, not that they ever did, but they it was their way to recruit people, and I guess show people that it's a great place to live and a way to like preach the gospel to the world sort of thing.

So all these outsiders would be coming into your community.

That's it seems scary given the framework that you were given.

Yeah, so it was almost like a time for young people and people in Guaribal to like prove to the leader that they were supportive of the church and like for them to like preach to all these people.

Like afterwards, there would be like hours where like lots of people from Guaribal would go among everyone and preach to them to like try and convert them.

Wow, what was the like mean message that y'all were preaching that he was trying to get out to people?

Pretty much like I think a lot of it was like that the Lord was going to return and if they didn't get saved, then they were all going to hell.

So that real fear based message or like joining the church is the only.

Way and this is this Gloria Belle is the only way.

Yeah.

They were pretty much taught that with the New Zealand we were the only true Christians, and then the other true Christians in the world were like the Jews that or like churches in Middle Eastern countries or whatever that were being persecuted for their faith.

Other than that we were like the only true Church of God.

That's an interesting combination.

Yeah, but the ideas are kind of similar.

Really, m.

Yeah, can you talk a little bit about like on paper, these beliefs sound pretty run of the mill for a lot of like evangelical Christian groups, but obviously like the way they're put into practice is a lot more extreme.

But what are some of the basic beliefs of the group.

That we should be like in the world but not of it, but also that whole thing around like baptism, like choosen when you baptized, being separate from the world, and just like the whole arranged marriage thing.

But it's all sort of based off the New Testament apparently.

And then they made their own like what we Believe, which was like this big book that they made which had some New Testament and then some of their own versions of what they thought how you should live.

And then they had a commitment document that you signed around the age sixteen to eighteen that you have to sign if you want to like get married or be part of the church or whatever.

Yeah, and then in general they believed that once you signed that document, if you left the community, you would damning your own soul to hell.

And then also your children, if you had children.

Also your children, would your children have to do with it?

It's not fair, I mean, none of us are.

Yeah, they used approach that.

It's because as parents, if your children, I guess at the time weren't baptized, so they believe once you baptized yourself, then you cover your own soul in terms of salvation and getting to heaven.

But if you have young children, then you're their way to heaven.

So that's why it's based off how yours parents behave.

M m m hmm.

Interesting what we're you gonna say?

My again?

I was going to say the commitment document was so interesting because it seems like when the community moved to Gloriaville, it became something where like all of the income streams went to the same place with the cult, and this commitment is kind of also saying financially, here is all of my life and all of my money.

Yeah, and that's sort of where it came from.

I mean, once the more generations were born into it sort of didn't make sense in terms of giving all your money because you didn't really have any to begin with.

But it was more just that control as well.

Yeah, I mean there's a lot of overlap.

I mean I'm hearing certain things that overlap with the two by twos with Megan's group, and there's also a lot of overlap with with fundamentalist Mormons and in particular the FLDS because at least the way they used to be, because it was a very contained community where all the money went back into the community and nobody really had their own money.

It all would go into this like trust that the church owned.

So were people working and like what if you needed clothes?

Like how how would it work economically?

I guess.

Yeah.

So they had their main businesses, which was farming, and then the other way they earned their money was there.

And in New Zealand, when you have kids, you get a subsidy per child depending on what your husband earns.

So they would all put all the men on really low incomes.

And then they don't believe in contraception, so they get all the money from that as well, and then it all comes into one bank account or however they work it.

But so there's one person that buys everything for everyone, and then all the clothes are made in Rovale.

Well that makes sense, I guess given the uniform.

Yeah, so it's all made and then everything else is communal, So like all the meals, all the washing's done communally.

Yeah, because it's a farm, there's cows, there's dairy cows.

There's like it's a self sustained yeah yeah.

Yeah.

So they had their own electricity and own water supply and then all of that was sort of same.

But obviously they don't watch TV.

We had movies, but they were all edited, and they edited all the movies and they tended to be like warm movies or movies about people dying or bad things happening in the world, like nine to eleven.

They played nine to eleven or but it was edited as well.

And then like they couldn't we couldn't watch movies where like you know, kids movies where animals talk.

Yeah, you couldn't watch things like that.

Why even because that was not good because animals don't talk.

Can't talk to animals?

How can humans have a connection with animals?

Even like the kids books were all edited because they don't believe in birthdays or women wearing jeans, or the days of the weeks are changed.

So in gore of other days of the weekest first day, second day, third day, and then the months of the year or like first month, second month, third month.

So yeah, all the kids books and all our books were edited.

So for example, if it had so and so's birthday, happy birthday, and they would twin over that, or if a woman was wearing jeans and a book it was we had to draw and where drew skirts over top?

Wow, everythink was edited.

How did they edit the nine to eleven footage just out of curiosity?

What was the purpose there?

I don't know, Like they just would go into like things where I don't know what part of that they might have eaten.

They would eat it out things like sexual scenes or scenes where it talks about the world being millions of years old.

Or.

Or any facts that they didn't really believe in.

And that's how we like things like.

That, right, So it's not just like sex and violence, it's like any belief system we don't like an animals.

Yes, yeah, very, it's so fun.

Does the animals?

Oh they're so cute.

And I loved how in the book you guys would like hold up the you know, skirts that you drawn on over the thing to the light to like see where the jeans were.

Because kids are curious and they're like, oh my gosh, it's jeans.

And also, I think it's a really important point to make that you're being schooled through the system, your being first day, second date, thirday.

So if you go try to join the world, you already are like what's a Wednesday?

Like, yeah, had you heard Wednesday?

Like did you know the names of the week?

No?

Wow, I knew that, like you hear sort of like from holding up the books you can see other days of the way.

You don't really know what.

Is what all right?

What day is for wah or anything.

So you had to learn.

Oh, that is unbelievable.

The disorientation.

It's unbelievable upon leaving a group Like that sounds well, we'll get into that, but that's crazy.

You are one of my favorite characters of all time, like your like punk Rocket.

I don't know, there is something so incredible about this story that I've never seen anybody do anything like that.

So, yeah, we'll get into it.

What else should we set up?

Well, I want to hear a little bit about I mean, so many groups have this, but again, this is like a more extreme version like the way that women are expected to have children and have children and have children and go back to work, like kind of immediately after having children.

Can you talk about women's role in the community and what was expected.

Yeah, like women are expected to go to work right away and that we all can look after each other and we're one big family, because they don't really want families to be their own a guest family.

So if you put all kids together and put the woman back to work, like even it didn't even make sense.

Married married women that have had kids, obviously they're called married women were seen back to work in the young like twelve year old thirteen yard girls would look after the kids so that the moms could work, which doesn't even really make sense in a way, but anything to sort of stop a connection between like a mother and child or a family.

I think that's sort of like the game behind it.

It's very children of God, ask where they are, Like, you know, it was just like the family unit, doesn't matter that that's the kid's table, you guys, bla la da da dut Well, that's just like yeah, so sick the sea organ scientold you.

I feel like they're just echoes of every other cult in this cult, it's got all all the things packed together.

Yeah, and then the work that y'all were required to do and that the women were required to do directly after giving birth.

And of course you're not supposed to give birth at a hospital.

You're supposed to do it at home, and you were born in a hospital because you're a rebel.

What would it mean if a woman had about the woman if she had a baby in the hospital, it.

Would mean that she obviously didn't have faith in God, or that she didn't believe in the church or like, yeah, it was like shame on the woman, and not necessarily in the husband or the father.

It was all the woman's fault for not having faith.

So if something goes wrong with your pregnancy and you have to go to the hospital, that means you're a sinner and you've done something wrong, that's.

Yeah, And all that you were willing to push through the pain or like push through to have your baby naturally or at home, and so you wanted to rely on rather instead of relying on God to give you strengths, you had to rely on the hospital system.

Oh my gosh, did you see anyone be put in danger because they didn't want to end up in the hospital because they didn't want that stigma.

You often saw that during pregnancies.

So for example, I remember seeing women who were having babies that had been told that they should not have any more babies, that their pregnancies impact infected them SLP made their lives so bad that like their leagues would burst and like they'll just be blood everywhere, like from their veins or like women that could have walked their whole pregnancies and women that just were bleeding like just I think just that care of woman and that they just had to carry on.

And these women would literally just carry on doing the washing or doing the cooking or cleaning with their leagues bleeding out.

Whoa they were just like God's gonna save me.

I'm putting my faith in God.

Even if a guy didn't see you.

If you die, that's the God's will, Yeah, exactly.

And what if you get sick, just like as a non mother, like if you have to go to the er, like and you're a dude, I guess, like what happens?

What does that mean?

Anything?

They typically didn't go like often wouldn't go to the hospital the district, like the nurses from the outside would come in, although do regular visits.

Sometimes I think once a month a doctor used to come in.

But even in those appointments, you had to get approval to go to that appointment, and then your might let as a child, your mom might go with you to the appointment, but you still had to have another woman or another person assigned by the leaders to sit in.

So even in those appointments, you never were alone to actually express what was happening.

There was always someone else that gave your approval to what you could talk about or what you could access.

Wow, and then things like needing to go the dentist or anything like that had to all be approved.

So it really depended on who you were related to.

If you were like the leaders, children or family, you had better access to healthcare.

So like the hierarchy system was definitely red or yeah.

Wow, the level of control is so tight in terms of ability to communicate with the outside but also just with each other.

I mean that sounds so suffocating to experience.

I was going to say to grow up in but no, definitely also for the adults, that just sounds suffocating.

Were you in the group when the docu series that I watched was filmed?

Was that the three part one?

Yes, I watched episode one.

It was twenty twelve.

I think I would have been do you remember any of that filming or like what the leader thought of that.

They controlled everything that got put in and every weird the film crew they went and like all the interviews were obviously people that did them were all chosen.

I think in like the later episodes, some of them were done just not long before I left.

I remember thinking, I do not want to be in these documentaries because I'll just come into the kitchen and film and I'll I knew that I was going to leave soon, so I didn't want to be in them.

I remember I was making cheese at the time, and they wanted to come and film me making cheese, and I just keep like making up excuses, Oh no, I'm not doing anything excite, like the cheese is still seating or whatever it was up to, because I just did not want to represent Gloro Belt at all.

But at the same time, you felt like when the cameras are going out, like you're an animal in a zoo, Like you just felt like people just wanted to watch you look at you, and you're just like this weird animal in the zoo sort of vibe.

Yeah.

I mean it's fascinating to watch because you I mean, there's a young man talking about his arranged marriage and how excited he is for his marriage to be arranged, and he's got like three options of girls, and you know, like the whole thing just feels so so so so staged.

Propaly young Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Every word out of somebody's mouth is like, I love being here.

It's wonderful, you know.

Oh and he might a man might like being there of his you know.

But even you know, he he obviously even didn't have the freedom, you know, to make the choices.

Well, and that was an interesting point you made that people aren't really allowed to talk to each other because you're supposed to snitch on each other.

Correct, you don't really know how anybody feels about anything.

Not really, that's scary.

I'll date down you never know.

So was that incredibly lonely growing up?

Like?

How do you function when you are kept from having meaningful connection with your family and people in your community?

I think well, I functioned by going into the bush, and I also functioned by like writing things down.

But then even with writing things, like my mum used to find what I had written and like get rid of it, because she was like, well, if someone comes to a room and looks through things, you'll be in trouble.

And so even in that case, you just didn't there was no way to fully bear yourself.

I mean I was lucky I had a few really close friends, but they always want you to like tell on your friend or they will manipulate it you and be like you can tell us anything, we won't tell any the other leaders.

We're on your side.

So then you tell them how you really feel, and then it blows up.

Like I remember supporting one of my friends and saying like it's not fear how she's being treated or something like that, like family should be able to talk to everyone and stuff.

And then the next day my friend was kicked out because I had sort of like supported her and like tried to help her.

But because I did that, she had to go, oh no.

So it's like you'd even knew, like you think you're helping someone, but it could backfire at anytime.

I want to know about Neville Cooper, who while he was in the group, he changed his name to Hopeful Christian.

What did you how did you see him growing up?

What was he to everybody.

He was supposed to be like the grandfather figure to everyone.

We sort of saw him like as just a very scary person and that you just didn't know what he was going to do.

But he also was like fun and like just very erratic, Like it would be like, let's play that the brass band's going to come out and play everyone a song in the middle of breakfast, or let's march around the buildings and sing a song, which as a child you sort of like think that's exciting, but as you get older, it's sort of like you just didn't know what he was going to be like.

And then growing up you always feel like he's like the person that's never going to die, the Lord's going to come back before he ever dies, and he's like the ultimate person.

But yeah, as we got older, we definitely referred to like him and the leaders as SS officers, like secret service because and I remember the oftener meetings would be like everyone say praise God.

And I remember always being like under my breath because obviously they showed us all the footage of the holocoust and we under my breath.

May and my friends used to be like Hi Hitler, like because that's sort of like the Vibey gave.

Yeah, yeah, he's definitely serving something similar.

Did you find him, like did you believe that he had any special power?

I mean when I was younger, you sort of did, like you think, thought that he knew what he was talking about and God definitely gave him visions.

But as you get older, you realize he's just like a very angry person and if it doesn't go his way, then it's over.

I would love to know more about your rebellious spirit and when that began and how that evolved as you got order.

Yeah, I think it's sort of again from a very young age, like without me realizing, like even I look back.

They used to make these things called portfolios, but like when you're in pre school about your development and like your pictures in them and stuff, and they used to put like little quotes or little things that you did.

And some were like I was like three or four, and some of them were like doesn't like to show any affection, can be cautious to accept love from anyone, or other things were like likes to do ugly little things to people sometimes.

People sometimes being a person, Yeah, a person in presquat yeah, and.

Then I mean when I was about five or six, I remember watching these boys in my class make fun of like one of the other girls, and I remember telling the boy, I'm going to get a machitty and cut your head off.

I'm so obsessed with there, and I've been taken into the cupbet and being like given a hiding.

But I literally like my brothers, they had older brothers and they had macheties.

Literally yeah, yeah, So I think those six from young, but then as I got older, like I think it was around to eleven twelve, one of my best friend's family disappeared overnight.

And after that, I remember we used to have tangent bikes.

We're like a few of you ride the bike, and I remember thinking, I want to get my friends out of here.

We just have to make it to the main road and then we can get help.

And I remember trying to bike me and my friends down like out of the community, which was like a good ages away, and my friends yeah on the bike, but my friends like just stopped biking like they wouldn't help me, and they were like, where are you taking us?

And I was like, I'm trying to get us out of there, but then they all refuse.

Then that didn't have that sucks.

Yeah, you made a valiant effort, admirable.

And you need everybody to participate on a tan and bake.

Just the image of the it's a movie, like you have to it's such a movie movie in the in the in the outfits.

I mean, wow, yeah, what an image.

So you kind of stopped believing in it then, right, you were out on that.

But at the same time, I was so terrified that, like nibl Cooper used to preach about, I mean, I got baptized, I think at nine, and so obviously after that you're in charge of your soul and whether you get to heaven.

And I did, in some ways believe Nil Cooper was right in the way that he used to pray that if you took communion unworthily, you would die in your sleep that night.

So like every night on Sunday night, I'd be worried that I was going to die.

So like there was that rebellious thing of like wanting to get out, but also that experience of like being so scared, so worried.

Yeah, So it was like this mixed thing.

I had a cousin who had really fair skin, and I always just to think that it was because she had no sin, because to be pure and white, and so I think and just punishing yourself, so working really long hours or like doing things to prove to people.

I thought that that was the way that I would get God's help or God's attention to get to heaven.

So you sort of do things to almost not talk to yourself, but you think that's the way you're going to get to heaven.

Yeah, that makes perfect.

So is it?

Is it the more that you suffer, the more virtuous you are.

Yeah?

That almost when I write about in my book, like you live to die in Glorobal, like the only way you're going to get out of Glorobel life when life was so ship in Glorobal and you feel like you just can't go on, you just wash you could die because that's the only way out of this life.

So yeah, it's it's a weird thing sort of to experience at such a young age.

Is the Gloriaville having a cool place at least?

Like what are they marketing the afterlife as just like.

That we're going to be with the angels and gold and we're all going to be pure and there's going to be no more tears and no more sorrow.

Of that sort of vibe that was the two by two line, no more tears, no more sorrow.

Well, I feel like there's been a couple of the same yeah lines.

I feel very yeah.

I mean yeah, were there like times of levity?

Because I realized in the two by twos, by making it so starkly dark and sad, when something slightly funny did happen, it was like so funny.

So, for example, in the two by twos, you have to choose to get baptized, and once you choose, you are responsible for your own soul.

It's a very big deal.

You don't do it in childhood, you like do it as an adult that has chosen.

And so my sister made her choice to get baptized, and she was walking out to do it and she fell, and so she baptized herself.

Everyone like no one could brough like it was very funny.

Was there levity to anything in that way?

Were people laughing though?

I have to know people were swallowing it, people like it was like people were dying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Was there a sense of any levity or was like that not even an option, because this seems like a much higher control group.

It didn't seem to be lacking a good seat of But you used to have celebration days, so like days with a blow up bouncy castles and like you would get lollies and like it's just like a day of no work, and it was like it supposed to be fun.

And that was sort of the way that if something like as you said, like there had been like this bad time or someone had died or people had left.

That was sort of never Cooper's way of like making everyone feel happy again and like bringing every one back together that it's all okay and we're all happy.

And then the other time they really celebrated things was when people got married.

Yeah.

Oh and what a great encouragement to get married then too.

Yeah, that's the one time that's fun.

I'll get married my arranged partner.

Yeah.

It sounds like he was chaotic, so like there'd be like little bursts of fun and then you didn't know when you were going to be have to be afraid again.

Yeah, he's a weaver of trauma buns.

I was gonna yeah people controlled its mastermind.

Yeah, yeah, can you tell us your your parents had normal names before they joined the group.

What were their names after they joined the group?

Yes, after they joined the group, my mom's name was Humility.

They got married and their married name was Faithful, so they were Humility Faithful.

That was our family name.

And then my dad's name was Seemi normal Peter.

Oh, your dad got to be Peter?

Okay?

Yeah, and then last name faithful.

And the reason that he changed people's name was from the Bible, where it wasn't Simon became Peter.

Jesus made Simon become Peter.

So I guess Peter would be a sensical name and that right.

Yeah, yeah, but we have hopeful Christian humility, faithful, I mean were.

There are a lot of other names like that.

Very bizarre names like beloved, righteous, kindness, submissive, submissive, submitted, which is terrible.

Wow, how niaive?

They are so crazy?

Method or truthful, all those that like attribute names.

Almost Yeah, were you meant to live up to the specific thing that your name was?

Yeah?

So, like my birth name was honey faithful, honey honey.

Yeah, so I was supposed to be sweet and some massive I've forgotten the Bible burst, but it's something about sweet to your taste like honeycomb or something like how your words are supposed to be kind and yeah.

Which is like keep sweet.

I mean, all of it is just a way to strip individual identity and make people just be like a, what's the word that I want?

Copy?

Carbon copy?

Sure, let's go with that.

Yeah yeah, robot curbon copy.

Yeah yeah, robots, Yeah totally.

Can you tell us what smacking ladies were?

Oh, the woman that replaced your parents, if they were away, then they would be the smacking ladies.

Is that what you're making Yeah yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, so impressed.

Like when you in press school and you did something bad, the teachers wouldn't smack you, but they'd try and keep either your mom to come or they would have an assigned lady that would be the one to come.

If your parents your away or weren't around or whatever, that they would be the smacking lady.

So it was normally like older women in the community or woman that hadn't gotten married for some reason, then they would be the smacking lady.

So we have spiritual mental then physical abuse that like a very insane level.

Yeah yeah yeah, and of course we'll we get into it.

There's sexual abuse.

I mean, every abuse imagina well is just running rampant in this community.

Yeah, did you have an inkling that the leader had gone to prison before while you were still in the group.

I sort of I knew about it, but not the extent of it, because growing up, we were always taught that we knew that he went to prison, but we didn't know why.

We were taught that he went to prison because he was being persecuted for his faith.

That's what we were told.

Can you tell us a bit about how you decided to leave and how you left?

So it was a bit of a long journey in terms of I knew that I wanted to leave eventually from about the age of fourteen, but I didn't know how that would look like.

I think knowing that once I left, I was going to be cut off from my family was quite a lot to get your head around.

Yeah, for me, so trying to push it out as long as I could was like the hardest thing.

So it was definitely the longest four years of my life.

And there was a couple of times where I almost left, like getting secret leaders out to something because I had a brother that left before me, and he came to pick me up once and then the leaders found out and they all went down to the gate and the parked cars along and they stopped it from happening.

And so then I was like, no, I'm not going to go, not right now?

Was I don't want to go like this?

He was trying to get you out officially, like not just hang out with you.

Yeah, he was going to come pick me up.

Oh well, but yeah, the leaders weren't going to have that.

And apparent they say it is that there were a watchmen.

So I'll just throw that out there, that there was people guarding this.

Yeah, as a girl and as a woman in Gloro Beel, there's not really a chance for you to get out, like there's always mean on the bridge at night.

And then as a girl and woman in Glorobel, you couldn't really walk past a certain part on the property without having a married lady or your father with you.

So if you were seen trying to get out, like to get out, you have to go past that point, so you really had to do it in a secret way, which made it really tricky.

But how it sort of came out that how I eventually left was at eighteen, something happened I think a friend had come in who had left and they came back into the community and the leaders were trying to find him, and they knew that I was friends with him, and they asked me, oh, do you know where he is?

Where is he hiding?

And I was like, oh, no, I don't know where he is, but if I did, I wouldn't tell you anyway.

And then that comment just blew up.

And I was on dishes at the time, so I was like doing all the breakfast dishes.

And next thing, I just had like Neville Cooper coming up to me, like screaming and like yelling and like saying like I hated the church, I hated my family and all the stuff, and like I had about four leaders do their and their wives.

And then they told me I had to go home.

They don't want anyone around me because I was evil.

And then they arranged for like a leader's meeting that night.

So it was a Friday night, and those meetings went for like about three or four hours, and they were trying to get out of me or convince me it was all just bisigned.

By the end of the meeting, they said, we want you to sign the commitment or you've got to go, so pretty much.

That was a Friday, and they wanted me to sign it in front of the community on a Sunday and buy a sat I mean, I knew I wasn't going to sign it by the Saturday I was.

I told them I'm not going to and so on Sunday, I had to pack what I had, not that I had much.

I couldn't say goodbye to any of my friends.

I got to see a couple of them, and then they realized and sent men to stand outside my family's bedroom daughter stop me.

And then I just had to pack my stuff.

And then the next day I was dropped off at a bus stop at the local town and they tried to me to another place in New Zealand.

Thankfully, they bought me tickets to Auckland, which I didn't even really know, which is a plane ride away from where Groobo is.

It's the biggest city in New Zealand.

And I didn't even know where that was in New Zealand.

I didn't even know if it was in New Zealand.

I just knew that that was where my mom grew up and that my grandparents were potentially there, and I'd never met them, so they sent me there thankfully.

You know how they had those concerts.

One of my mom's school friends came to the concert and she was a real estate agent and she had her business card.

At fourteen, she came.

I keept one of her business cards.

I taped it to the bottom of my draw.

You know when you pull out a draw and there's that space, So I put it there.

Wow.

So then when I left, I had that card and she came to pack me up from the airport and this, yes.

KEITHA, So you've never been on a bus before, you've never been on a plane, and there's a bridge separating the cult from the rest of the world.

Correct, I'm just yeah, okay, So yeah, you've never really like crossed the bridge by yourself like before, and now you're on a bus heading towards a plane, heading towards the city that you don't even know where it itits have four body goosebumps.

This crazy I keep saying.

It was low key terrifying.

Yeah, why don't.

You also in this like adrenaline Like I was like, it's actually happening, It's finally happening, and you're just living off this adrenaline when I got to crash the airport that I was going to buy the bus, I got there own.

I had this really old suitcase that they gave me and I was trying to carry it, and this man came up behind me and helped me.

And that was sort of when I realized, ull shit, I'm on my own and I'm man of all things is helping me.

And that was sort of the first sort of seed of like the outside world isn't that bad.

If a man can help me, then it mustn't be that bad.

Like just someone helping me put my bag on the trolley was like the first thing to be like, okay, I'm gonna be okay, wow, if a man can help.

Me, Because you were told that they would all be evil or attacking you.

I just had never experienced a positive, a guess experience with a man actually genuinely helping a woman without giving him some betefit.

So for a man just to help me because he saw I needed help was like so foreign.

Oh my gosh, Megan's crying.

I'm just like the logistics of it all are like overwhelming me.

Imagining being in your physician.

One time I had a breakup and new York.

I weirdly was talking about this today.

And I had no money, and my ex left me in a hotel with no money, and I didn't know like how to get to my friend's houses.

And I know people in New York, and I had a cell phone, and I like still and I was like, yeah, I ended up on a wrong bus somewhere in New Jersey, but like I still could call my friend, and I knew where I was in the world, you know, like what you were experiencing, knowing no one, knowing nothing.

I mean, it's just like the disorientation sounds so next level.

But you knew Keitha and she comes and gets you, But did.

You call her once you landed or before you left?

So think feeling my mom wrung her off a glory ofal landline phone or whatever to say like, I'm coming, can you pick my daughter up?

Okay?

That was sort of all they knew at that.

Time, her and her husband.

Yeah, her and her husband, So they just came to pick me up.

Okay, But I didn't have a cell phone.

I didn't have that because they don't have cell phones, and glory about They gave me about two hundred dollars and that was it.

I didn't even have my birth certificate at that point, so I had like.

Nothing, So what happened?

Like, tell us about those first days of being out?

What was that like?

It was exciting but also like crazy.

The first thing we did that night when they picked me up was take me to like one of the biggest supermarkets in New Zealand.

I had ever been into a supermarket and they were just like, choose what even food you want?

And I was just like, I do not know what to choose.

I think there was Easter decorations up and I didn't know what Easter was, and I was like, what are these bunnies?

Why are they bunnies in the supermarket?

These outside were weird.

So I think I just think those first few days just like looking at everything and like just taking it all in.

I think I feel like the first sort of year was like a blur in terms of all the new experiences I had.

Were you living?

Did you stay with Keitha for a while?

Yeah?

I think I stayed with them just just under a year and then I went to Flashing.

But yeah, those first few weeks they thought that I was they were going to drop me back at the airport.

They were like, oh, when are you going to go?

When are you going home?

When do we need to drop you back?

Yeah, surprise your daughter now.

Yeah.

But they seem to have loved it like that.

It seems like they really enjoyed.

Yeah, you being there, lucky your head then Yeah, I don't know if this is the rape metaphor I'm not going to say it.

Well, I don't know.

I know I need to do you ever like have you included do you ever have like a fantasy of somebody from back in time coming and you get to show them everything?

Yeah, that's how I would feel if you showed up at my house, you know what I mean?

I'd like, this is this?

Like I'd be so excited.

Yeah, yeah, did you?

Did you get a job?

Like how did you get situated in your life?

This?

Like just that period of just like what am I?

Who am I?

Where am I?

Just is so interesting to me.

Yeah.

I think I didn't get a job.

For a while, I started studying pretty much showed to work.

So I studied like early childcare education, like a diploma or whatever it was, And then I started just doraining nannying work because that was sort of I was like, I know what I can do well, I can look after kids, right because I'm gloryab Our.

Women aren't really allowed to study or have a degree or anything, only if they're chosen in the degree.

They I only could do was early childcare.

But I really wanted to study, so I just started there.

And then from there I sort of, I guess I just my world opened up, and that was I got meet people.

They got a job and got experience on the outside, which then enabled me to get another job, and it sort of just grew from there.

Like what kind of foundation of education did you have from being a Gloriaville.

So in Gloriabae, you sort of have like a very strict education early on in terms of writing and maths and English that like that sort of stuff.

Okay, but once you get to like high school college age, education isn't important because you only need skills to be a mother, to cook and to clean into sew.

So and Nevill Cooper didn't really want people that were smarter than him.

Girls just did like English and maths and cooking, cleaning.

We got those sort of things.

And then girls who aren't allowed to do science or anything like that.

I think the only science this sort of thing we did was learn how to make soul.

Okay, the boys got science, but girls didn't.

And then you leave school at about fifteen and start working.

I think it's important to touch on when you learned the truth about mister Cooper and what his actual quote persecution.

Was his jail time.

Yeah.

Yeah, in glorobal I sort of figured out that he must have done something more than just be persecuted because I had a couple of my other people I know approach him about what actually really happened and they were kicked out.

Oh, so you know that's something more was going on, because when people questioned him, it wasn't right.

So then we word went around it was something to do with that sexual abuse.

It wasn't till after I left that I read a book that his son wrote or was involved in writing, called The Sins of My Father, that I read to the full extinct of what really went on in the beginning of glorobl and like throwout Glorobell, which sort of all made saints in a way, which then sort of unfolded into what else has he lied about or what else has all just not been true?

So he went to prison for sexual abuse.

Yeah, and then came back from prison.

He got out early, right, Yes, he was supposed to serve years and he served like less than a year, I want to say.

Yeah.

And then was like, all right, we're doing the church thing and you're all gonna come on my compound, even though I was just in prison for sexual abuse.

Yep, it's beyond comprehension.

There's a few things about your story that really inspire me.

You spoke out about your own story with sexual abuse very like unapologetically, and we're just like, if I don't want this to happen to anybody else because they encouraged you not to speak about it, and you're like, sorry, I am.

Yeah.

I think when I came out, I I mean, I knew and Gloribal that what I experienced wasn't right, but I also downplayed it a lot.

And then when I started telling people that I was with like Keitha, she was like, that's not normal.

And you can normalize it so much when you're in that environment.

And so then going to the police was really important, not only just for me to be heard, but to prevent I mean, I had like nearly thirty nieces and nephews then, and I was like, I don't want them to experience what I did and any other woman and girls in global So putting that in a police statement was really important to me.

And then from there it sort of unraveled other things that I experienced it.

I guess I didn't realize how much impacted me, like just yeah, the leader's abuse and how they treated you as as a woman in glorover and as a girl that belief system that your body is not your own and you belong to a man, or you belong to your father.

It took a while to realize, actually, this is my body and I'm in control of it and it's not anyone else's.

And getting my head around that was actually really weird, because yeah, it sort of was like, yeah, of course it is, but for so long you just thought it's not.

I mean, that's drilled into you from the day you're born, literally, Like, yeah, the fact that you were able to unlearn it at all is a miracle.

It's unbelievable.

And you were going to therapy, which is so impressive, you know, like you were really putting in a lot of work to get these realizations.

How did you even know to go to therapy or any any of these steps that you were taking.

I mean, it was when I originally went to the police, they offered me therapy, and then I realized that in New Zealand, I have access to free therapy, and I knew the only way to break that cycle of like the abuse that my mother experienced for my father, the abuse that all my sisters had experienced was in Gloro Belle, the only way to break that cycle was to do something about it, and going to therapy was that first sort of point of view, and being listened to and heard and validated was sort of that first point of knowing, yeah, that I can access help.

Since leaving, have you been able to form community with other former members?

Yeah, so most of them live quite far from me, but I've stayed in contact with quite a few, like a few of my friends after I left.

Of course, a lot of my friends left eventually too, and some you stay in contact with.

Yeah, I have a friend Rosanna and a few other friends that we stay in contact.

I mean some of the some of these stories that in the back of my book as well.

So yeah, we've stayed together.

I think you realize the power of woman speaking together and how I guess how powerful our voices are and that ability to know and stand together and know that our truth deserves to be heard is really powerful.

Yeah.

Yeah, can you tell us about about when Neville passed away?

When Nevill died.

I'm not going to so passed away when he died, not you guys seem to be like on a group chat or something, and it was almost like inconceivable that he would die.

To you, it seemed like.

Yeah, like we were joking like what if he died tonight, and then we realized that he.

Did die, That he died that very day.

I almost idea that he was like sick or even dying, But it just was such a weird feeling.

I definitely wasn't like sad.

I was like thank God, but then it was like, what's going to happen next?

Yeah, so that was sort of that feeling.

But yeah, of course he was like the martyr and everyone loved him and like worshiped to me.

He even made a video before he died of like what he wanted to happen, And they had one of the concerts that year and he died before the concert, so we made a video to be played for the concert.

Oh wow, Like that's how self absorbed in Like, hey he was in terms of that, he was like the beginning and end.

Yeah.

Well, in the animal talking version of the story the fairy tale, the court would have ended then and it would be gone, but instead somebody replaced him.

Is that yes, an American.

And an American even worse.

So now another man has stepped up and the beat goes on.

Is that cracked?

Yep, just has continued and currently that man is in the court system and hopefully to be sentenced that Sadly, our justice system doesn't take these things seriously, so we won't get much for the case.

What's the case?

Sexual abuse?

A big deal?

Yeah?

Okay to New Zealand.

The American Yeah wow.

So they've appointed another man like to take over, but that older man is still going to be there.

I mean, the American guy is older and he was born in America and all of that.

Now the next leader was born into it, so that's all he knows.

Now, So it's a whole different I guess layout of how it's going to be.

Right, we have to wrap up by I know, I know, but is there you know, God, do you there's so many different possibilities.

Do you have any final thoughts that you'd like to share or conclusions that you want people to know about this experience or this group.

I think, not necessarily about Gloroval, but I think something that I've realized since leaving is that cults can be linked, like controlled environments, cults and relationships or whatever you're in.

I think knowing that anyone around the world that's in an environment or relationship, knowing that you can get out, and knowing that your voice matters and that your experience is valid and that like trust your gut, that sort of thing.

I think it's not just Gloroval or whatever.

I think I've realized that so many people have so many different stories and once that's out, they realize, but when you're in it, you can't say it the same.

But yeah, I think just knowing that you're not alone in those situations.

Yeah, really not.

I mean there are so many, so many groups like this, it's wild.

Yeah.

Well, we started this podcast, we thought we would run out of people to talk to, and that is not the case, unfortunately, unfortunately, but also wonderful that there are people like you sharing their stories and helping other people in other groups.

So can you remind us the name of your book and where people can find it.

Sure.

The name of my book is called Unveiled, A Story of Surviving Glory Over and it is on Kindle, Amazon in New Zealand, it's and bookstores.

But yeah, it's online.

You can find it online in the Amazon BNK.

Yeah, amazing, it's incredible.

And do you have a place that you want people to follow you or on a knee?

Yes, you can follow me on Instagram on my page called life is Choice, New Zealand.

Amazing.

If you wake up with four hundred new messages, they're probably from us.

Great to thank you so much for joining us today.

Seriously, thank you, We really appreciate it.

Thank you for having me.

And that's where we'll leave it with THEO.

What an incredible story.

I wish we could have talked to her for long.

I cannot wait to see this as a movie because it's one of the most exciting stories I've ever heard in my life.

I can't stop telling people about it.

Well, which brings me to my question, yeah, which is do you think you would join Gloria Vale?

Absolutely?

No, go on, just none of the stuff that usually intrigues me, such as aliens, legs, wigs.

Yeah, is that a good thing?

Yeah?

You know, like dare I say glamour or some sort of like spiritual hippie stuff kind of.

Yeah.

Yeah, So I think that I would not love it, but I totally see how people get sucked into it.

You know, it's offering like a different, simpler life.

And yeah.

Yeah, when I was a kid, and I'm sure we've talked about this, but I like, well, I was really obsessed with the Box Card Children.

Duh, Henry Violet.

Of course you remember every detail from the books, You're insane.

I don't remember.

I literally, I think I've read like all of them.

Don't remember any of the characters.

No, but I loved the books.

I loved it.

I swear it's a bad memory.

And the idea of like like living simpler and like doing things from scratch and no electricity and like going you know, like was so appealing to me.

And we had like a lot of Amish people in our I guess I don't actually remember if they were our neighborhood, but in rural Michigan, we would see them.

And I was so intrigued by it and really want to hang out with them, so I see the appeal on that level.

Totally, totally same.

I loved and just for people who didn't read The Box Car Children, I'm number one, what are you doing with your life?

Get in there?

Number two.

It's these kids who escape from kind of an abusive foster situation and move into a box car in the woods, and there's a dump nearby that they go and collect all of these treasures that people have thrown away.

And I was addicted to reading how they built, like they found the stream where they could get the water and clean off all their things.

And yes, there was also that movie Swiss Family Robinson.

It was like a Disney movie and there was a part in it.

I remember my friend had the movie because I didn't have any movies, and I just watch it over and over and over where they moved to a weird island and like and built a self containing like family city, and I just loved that.

For some reason.

I don't I really like, I really like that kind of trope.

But I you know, as myself now, I just can't.

I can't live more simply than you.

Yeah, yeah at all?

Basically yeah yeah.

Now.

Growing up I was on a farm and so that stuff seemed fun.

Right now I'm like, oh, I really like my air conditioning yet.

Yeah.

All that to say, please read those book because I couldn't put it down absolutely.

Oh and if you want to get some trust Me morich, go to the Exactly Right Store at exactly rightstore dot com and grab a T shirt or a hat.

And as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out for red flax, and never ever trust me.

Bye bye.

This has been an Exactly Right production hosted by me Lo La.

Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth.

Our senior producer is Gee Holly.

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest book are is Patrick Kottner.

Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark and Daniel Kramer.

You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast or on TikTok at trust Me cult Podcast.

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation, Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.