Trust me?

Do you trust her?

I ever lead you astray?

Trust This is the truth, the only truth.

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to trust me.

The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two battie's in debt who've actually experienced it.

I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

Today's part two of our interview with Sarma mel Guiless, author of The Girl with a Duck Tattoo, whom you may have seen in the docuseries Bad Vegan.

This week, she is going to tell us about how her manipulator, mister Fox, consumed her time, overwhelmed her with information, and dangled promises of financial freedom that was always just around the corner as a way to get her to borrow and send him more and more and more money.

Damn this man.

She'll tell us about the fabricated online persona he created as part of the manipulation, how he always knew things it seemed like he couldn't have known if he didn't have some kind of special power, and the tactics he used to keep her in a constant state of confusion and dependence, including an increasing barrage of tests, and then we'll finally discuss how they drove across the country until they were finally both arrested.

Plus how she felt about her time at Rikers and the current status of her restaurant.

Yes, indeed, I'm just I'm so happy we got to have her on.

I Like, I've said it a million times in the interview, but I just connect with so much about her story because it's so similar to my mom's and hearing and reading just like the details the changes.

Oh god, yeah, I mean it's really really insightful into the psychology of how of the details of what happens.

Megan, that's me.

No, Magnificent Megan, you don't know talk about it.

No one is going to understand this reference.

But it's very funny, I promise, Magnificent Megan.

What is your cultiest thing this week?

God?

Okay, Well, I mean this happened a couple months ago.

I've been hesitant to admit it because it feels shameful to me, But after reading Sarma's book and knowing that being open about these things helps, I'm just gonna say it out loud.

I got fucking scammed, bro.

You got scammed.

I got Target scammed hard?

How will I will tell you?

Because I'm a person who's like pretty aware of scams.

I have the secret password for the family in case somebody calls and like pretends to be kidnapped with the like I am on top of my scammy shit, you know what I mean.

The other day, guy called me and he was like, this has Chase.

Did you just charge nine thousand dollars to your card?

And I was like, yeah, I did, and he was like it was in Florida and I was like, yep, it was in Florida, and like, I know when people are scamming me, okay, Amy who.

I feel like I'm pretty savvy about people trying to scam me.

However, when fear is involved, things get crazy.

And I got a message through my work email from my boss that said, Megan, I need you to resent your number.

I've lost it.

This is from his.

Email immediately and I'm like, oh my god, it's blooda da da da da da.

And he texts me and he's like, Megan, I need you to.

Go grab me some gift cards from Target because I made some people mad yesterday at the company, which I knew is true, and I want to give them some gifts.

And I was like, that's so nice of you.

I'm really busy on this thing right now.

And he's like, I don't care.

I need you to go now, and I'm like what okay.

Randomly my friend text me do you want to go to Target?

What the fuck?

Okay?

I'm like sure, I'll meet you at Target.

So my friend is there and.

She's like like going down the aisle and I'm like, I can't shop right now.

I have to buy gift cards for Target.

Six hundred dollars worth of gift cards.

This man has me buy three two hundred dollars things.

Okay, I buy the gift cards.

I'm like, weird, but whatever.

He goes megan, I'm so sorry, I need I need three more, Oh my god.

And I'm like is this coming from his phone number?

That's like no, no, the new number.

And I'm like, okay, fourteen hundred dollars this person has me spending on gift cards.

I go to a Target employee, like the manager working behind what looks like the return to usk talking to a girl and I'm like, please look at these texts.

I'm so scared.

Is this illegal?

Am I getting scammed, Like what's happening?

And because I'm such.

A goody goody tattletale like freaked out and he's like, no, I mean it sounds like your boss was just a dick to some people and months to be nice.

And I was like, wait, that's.

What the target is.

Because I gave him some backstory, you know what I mean, Like I'm chatting a zero off, I'm yapping at him and I'm like, I don't want to get in trouble.

My friend's like, let's go look at the beauty.

I'm like, bitch, I can't.

I'm fucking I'm gonna work.

And wow, yeah, so them on the last fourteen hundred dollars one.

I mean I only spent fourteen I'm the last buy.

My dad happened to call me, Oh thank god, and I explained to him what I was doing and he goes, Megan, stop, somebody just did this to one of his employees.

Please grab me some gift cards.

I need it for the staff.

It made sense, and they're like, I'll reimburse you.

I'll reimburse you immediately.

Like Sam, that's such a good scam.

That's such a good scam.

And was he like, and then give me the number the car, scratch it off, send it to me.

I'm scratched to do it.

Oh of course, damn.

I wish your dad had called a little bit earlier.

I couldn't have called a bit earlier.

And yeah, and I felt so stupid obviously, well thank you, but like because the fear of it, I was like arguing with my friend about you know, I was like I have to hurry, Like there was just such a sense of urgency within me of like I don't have time to look at stuff.

And that's what I got think we should be on the lookout for.

It feels like it's it has to happen right.

Now, like love bombing any of it.

Like nothing's better unless life saving medical.

If someone wants you to get gift cards urgently, right.

That CPR and the Heimlink maneuver, those are the urgent things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, not gift cards.

Not gift cards.

So yeah, the hard way When you looked back at the email, was it actually from his email?

Like was he hack?

No?

No?

Yeah.

I think it's awesome that you shared that story because that shit happens to so many people.

It's I told you, I've talked about the times that I've almost gotten scammed by like someone calling me because they saw something on my Twitter and they said they were from Twitter, and they were like, right, yeah, no, that's so good to know that.

Are we able to like get a refund or anything or no, partially, but some of it they're just not giving me back.

So yeah, it sucks.

I know.

Well, I hope he enjoys whatever he's buying from Target.

Yeah, I know me, so I was like, damn enjoy the Target cards.

Well.

On a similar note, yeah, give me your cultiest thing I was gonna do.

I was gonna do a K pop thing, but I think I'm gonna switch it.

Actually.

Oh okay, we'll talk about K pop another time.

Okay, great.

And by the way, I've written a couple of K pop songs.

I love k pop.

Yeah, we love love k pop.

No one is madic k pop stands to know that.

Yeah, the news Sora came out, Oh my god.

As our mutual friend posts videos, do you see these videos?

He posts all the time?

Sign now, uh he loves it.

It makes me feel insane.

There was someone who and this is also relevant to I'm just gonna shout out my friend's movie app of PHOENIAX because uh, it deals with this topic in the form of a horror movie.

You can now put yourself into Sora.

This program like put your face in one time and it can have you.

It could create a realistic video of you doing absolutely anything.

It can put you into any TV show and it's still like maybe a little rough looking sometimes, but it's very realistic.

For how early it is a hundred of myself doing ballet?

Why ballet?

Because lifelong dream?

And I was just like, what would I look like doing ballet?

About yes, but.

There was a man who like he just very easily made it look like he had robbed a bank.

It is so easy now to put somebody's face in any environment and to just make up a fucking video perfect timing.

With our current administration and all the things that people are going to be able to say, that was aa.

I mean, that's the thing.

And also just like the scams that are going to happen, the manipulations that are going to happen, it's very very scary.

Well, I'll tell you one thing.

A lot of people have been sending me their SRA videos of themselves, you know, like eating with all this, and I'm like, real talk, I'm not going to watch your Instagram video of your actual life.

I'm letting definitely not watching a fifteen second fake video of you eating ice cream on the moon.

Wait, it does feel.

Fair alert when people did all those there've been all those like little Here's what I'd look like as a cartoon character, Here's what I'd look like as an old person, Like I don't care.

But but the fact that you could like forge someone doing anything and saying anything totally and use that as a tool of manipulation.

And sometimes people are already believing that it's a real thing that happened and it says Sora on it.

Yeah, because people just don't know what that means.

They don't know if it's a Sora on it.

Guys, it's definitely fake.

Yeah.

Also, look at the fingers.

Are there five or are there more or less?

Yeah?

Yeah, it's scary.

Yeah.

Like, I know that this is a big debate among everybody right now, and there are people who are like, well, farmers were afraid of technology and like get sure, but like this is the most like aggressively egregiously unregulated scam potential and manipulation potential and like propaganda potential technology that we've ever seen.

And so I'm I can't wait to see what transpires.

What videos you gonna do with me?

I don't know.

We'll see.

You might have to you might have to start doing a few of yourselves.

Send it around because they need a scam that face.

I don't want to.

Don't scam my face.

I had to do that full face scam for those ballet of videos.

I will not be doing that, but it will be able to make me anyway.

It doesn't matter if you had a childhood dream.

I do suggest putting yourself doing the thing.

My childhood dream was to be a princess.

Then you can make that happen and it's kind of fun.

But don't show anybody.

Don't send it to anyone because they don't give a shit.

Also, Ai, I just want to study that data centers in the UK actually this I think I saw this through our guest from next week.

But the amount of energy that the data centers in the UK are using totally negates the impact of switching to green.

So you can see yourself writing away it's not worth it, literally not.

Our plan is.

A good point because the good magnificent Megan the whale writing.

Video that I made.

Okay, why did I also get a man writing a dolphin.

Because that's what you want to see, and like, if we have to destroy our one planet, then so be it.

No, let's not, I know not.

I like our plan.

It's beautiful for now.

I love it.

Yeah, all right, yeah.

Well, let's talk to somebody who actually is doing something to save the planet, A meaning Vegan.

Oh good segue.

Okay, here we go.

Welcome back, Sarma.

We left off last week talking to you about the amount of money that mister Fox had scanned you and your loved ones and associates out of For someone who maybe hasn't seen Bad Vegan or hasn't read your book yet, can you kind of just like explain, like in simple terms, what the scam was, like what he was saying, or like what he made you believe would happen if you gave the money.

Unfortunately, it's hard to do concisely because, as is common with these people, the story keeps changing over time.

Yeah.

So in the beginning it was one thing, and then over time it worked into something else, and then it worked into something else, to the point where at the end he sort of found a way to justify everything he was doing.

By that point, it was so far gone, and I was so far gone that he justified absolutely every horrendous thing he did, but specifically all of the money as being a bunch of these tests.

Had to pass these tests, and getting the money was part of that, and he acted like it was no big deal, like he was just putting.

It somewhere, and it was all about.

These tests of loyalty, and also making me believe that none of it mattered, because as soon as we were done with this thing, which that goalpost kept moving, all of these people would be you know, I'd be able to pay them back double triple.

I could money with them, as you said, So by that point I was far into the delusion.

He spun these stories that kept changing and changing, and then over time you leave in that psychological aspect to where it it's harder and harder for me to get out of because I'm in so deep.

Yeah, at first, it's I'm going to pay you back and you're going to be rewarded with so much more money, and then it sort of evolves and there's like a spiritual component, yes.

Like now these tests aren't even on this realm anymore.

They're kind of yeah, like, can you kind of walk us through what?

Yeah?

I mean?

Over time, he had me convinced, not convinced, but he had me sort of always with one foot in his reality and then one foot of not really knowing what was reality, but making it seem as if he had all these special powers and what's eerie now?

And I don't think I've talked about this on any other podcasts, but I found it fascinating and I noticed.

It while I was working on my memoir.

You know, I'd already written the whole draft, but I made sure to work these things in because I'd started to hear things about Kabbala, basically from Instagram reels, and then I got really curious and I was looking into it because I was hearing things that were reminding me of stuff that he used to say to me.

And so this idea that my.

Soul came here and my primary issue to work out, which if you looked into Kabbala, like everybody has their takoon is what it's called, and mine was financial and so that that's why he was testing me on this.

And then a lot of other things, like he sort of conditioned me to not get mad at him, to not get reactive.

But he explained that if I get reactive in a situation and I lose my temper, that that will lead to something bad happening, not just in a way that we could all imagine would logically happen, potentially for example, and I've heard this explained in Kabbala, that you know, if you're reactive to something and lose your temper and lash out of somebody or whatever you do, that that might then be the cause of your walking outside and tripping and spraining your ankle, which is totally illogical, but in a spiritual world it's made out like there's that consequence to your action, and so he presented it to me in that way.

And there are all these other examples, like later on the really icky, gross like sexual abuse stuff, he would tell me that he needed my light, that it was like energy, that he needed my light.

And that's also something that I heard talked about, you know, listening to kabbala stuff online where you know your sexual energy is like a light in your murdering with that person, and I just all, it's just there's so many examples where what he was telling me, now I see happens to mirror that stuff.

And I don't know what to make of it, but he certainly wove in this spiritual component that just added to this sort of confusing soup in which he kept me boiling.

Where you were human and he was not was oh yeah, yeah, Now.

He made it out like he came here and he was shepherding me through this process and now I'm this is very typical I think in cold situations too, is like I'm chosen, I'm special, I'm the chosen one.

So even though I'm just used to call me as TBA just tiny belong human, therefore, by implication, is not human and is something more like some kind of a god that came here.

And Yeah, I want to just like sort of reiterate your point about the story changing, because I think that's something that people who have never experienced this kind of manipulation I don't think necessarily often understand.

Yes, And what we kind of see over and over again is that like once you have formed that bond with the manipulator, that trauma bond, or once they have like convinced you that they are the authority, no matter how smart you are, they have systematically reduced your critical thinking abilities using and true tactics.

So it's you're not in a position mentally to be like, wait, but the story changed, because your lifeline is the person who is the authority, and once you have given them that trust and they are that figure for you, then they can kind of change it however much they want.

Because my dude also the number of spiritual systems or political like he morphs it like every six months, what he is saying he's about or what the belief system is, it doesn't matter, it's not the point.

The point is he's got these people who he has manipulated who will do whatever he says because they are trapped in this hole and they don't know how to get out.

And a great example of that is like end time dates.

People are like, well, if somebody gives an end time date and it doesn't come true, everyone's gonna leave.

No, people don't walk any harder.

Like the trauma bond, the cognitive dissonance, And there is that trauma bond statistic where it's like if you're nice and then mean to a dog, it's like two hundred and fifty three percent more loyal to you, Like, it's just very very uh innate in our DNA.

Yeah, we're all susceptible.

This could happen to all of us.

We all the time talk about how we think we're going to be like because we know someone is potentially like a narcissist or like having antisocial tendencies or whatever, that we won't be vulnerable to their tactics.

But then at the end of it, we're like, fuck.

Yeah, of course, because it just works.

It just works, because it's that alternating the high and the crash and the high and.

The animals at the end of the day.

Yeah.

Yeah, And it's really unfortunate that.

I mean, I've been through it multiple times now, so I realize from my own experience how hard it is.

You sort of think if it happens as you want, it's never going to happen again.

But that's why I told the story in as much detail as I did about my situation with Matthew, because even on the other side of that, I came out of that aware.

You know, somebody who known him for a long time said, well, he's a textbook sociopath, And so I had done all this research on cinciopathy and understood that people like that exhist and I think I didn't think about it that much.

I you know, again, I was busy with the restaurant.

I was preoccupied.

I was running the business on my own.

And you should have this feeling like, well, it could never happen again, right, But it's the opposite.

Whatever it was that made you well, woles of that in the first place is still there, and you're it's more likely for to happen.

Yeah.

Another parallel between you and my mom making people up on email invented persona's emailing.

Yeah, he did that.

Your responses in the g chat were so interesting because you kind of know he's making this up, but like.

It's a man named well, it's a it's a man named Will correct.

Is this assistant, Yes, and so you're emailing with him as as his assistant, But you're like, you're the fucking same person.

Yeah, I know, I know there's time.

I know there's this time where I'm like, you know, I'm like, fuck you, you should go blow each other.

Like I'm so angry at I'm saying all this crass stuff.

And I also found that fascinating about my own situation.

Is that I'm calling him out on it, but then also just kind of going along with it at the same time.

But by that time, again he could get away with anything and there was nothing to call him out on because he had framed the whole thing as if he was deliberately putting me through this test, so that like gave him an out for absolutely everything.

Bro the test thing, I cannot Yeah, y'all, if anyone says they're testing you, run.

And I also hate when people are like and he did this to you so often, and it made me physically ill because I hate the feeling when he'd be like, I heard, I heard you did something bad.

You want to tell me about it, and you're like, oh.

My god, yeah, yeah.

I mean I still have that.

I still get panicked anytime I think I've done something wrong or I'm you know, like constantly feel like, oh my god, I'm gonna get in trouble or I've done something wrong.

It's it's it's a really difficult thing to live with.

I mean, I constantly was afraid I was doing something wrong and I was going to get in trouble, and he would be angry and I would suffer the consequences and you're like walking on eggshells, which is probably why you know, my heart rate variability is still really high because even years later, it's like you're walking around primarily in that heightened state of flight or flight.

Right, did you have a sense that there were other worldly figures who were judging, like who was doing the judging?

Well?

He yeah, there's this character of his brother, his sort of omnipotent brother, which she made it seem as if his brother was everywhere at all times.

So I got this feeling like I was always being watched.

And she never quite said things explicitly, but there were all these times where he would talk about how he could only tell me something in the box, right, as if we were going into some sort of metaphorical skiff where he could only tell me the truth when he did something weird, and then we would be quote in the box, as he said it.

Like another dimension of privacy or something.

Yeah.

Yeah, like he did some weird sounds thing and now all of a sudden, we're not being observed by the higher ups.

It's kind of like everything everywhere all at once us.

But you know, you like do something weird and random to like throw off the timeline and then you can talk really quickly, you know.

But but I haven't seen that movie, but I want my guy.

Yeah, but I mean the first time he did it to my recollection, it did involve like blood.

Yeah, he was like, I gotta, I gotta do something like.

It was a lot of effort for him to do whatever he had to do so that we could talk in the box and he could he could be honest with me.

So he did whatever he did.

He was in the bathroom that he came out.

We had some conversation, and then I went into the bathroom later and it was like blood in the sink.

So you're like, damn, the box is like kind of hard to access.

Yeah, it takes some blood.

So much creepy stuff like that.

Speaking of creepy stuff, I think one thing that is really important to note is that he would know things that you now have plausible explanations for, but at the time you didn't.

Can you tell us about some of that.

He would do stuff like, you know, he would say so and so is about to call you, so you might want to like turn to ring around or something like that.

You know, he would say something like so and so is about to call you.

And then you know later that person would call.

And what I assume now is that because he had access to my email on his phone and I'm maybe doing something, he's probably sitting there sees an email come in from you know whatever, Joe Schmo saying yeah, great, got your message.

I'll call you in five minutes, and then he would mister Fox would like quickly delete that message so I never see it.

The person calls it five minutes, but he was able to say so, and so I was going to call you a five minutes.

You know what I mean?

Like, I can figure out lawsible explanations for a lot of that stuff that he did.

Now, some of it I can't necessarily, but a lot of it I could.

Yeah.

At the time, he seems to have this like psychic ability, which just lends credibility to this persona that he's yeah, presenting.

Yeah, and every you know.

Again, towards the end, it's like he had an excuse for everything.

So even his getting fatter and fatter, he was like, you're supposed to hate me.

You're supposed to hate me.

I was supposed to be an asshole to you, and you're supposed to be disgusted by me, and you know, I'm tired of walking around in this fat.

Meat suit for you.

I gotta do this for you.

That was his excuse for being the bild.

Wow.

Can you talk about the information overload?

This is something I find endlessly fascinating just because we see it now in our world.

I mean, I think you're somebody that is trying to keep up with politics, it's impossible.

There's information overload, and so all of these atrocities one thing after another.

I mean, if you think about like the current administration and whatever, you think about it like just insane shit happening, and you know, shattering.

Of norms, and.

Then the next thing happens, and then the next thing happens, and the next scandal and the next thing, and so nobody can keep up and you're just exhausted by it all.

And then that allows people to get away with a lot of shit they otherwise wouldn't if we had time to pay attention to that one thing.

And so he did a lot of that with me, and just bombarding me with stuff all the time and keeping me in used and exhausted.

And you know what I understand now, I did in the course at the time is creating cognitive dissonance is a tool of manipulation because when you're in a confused state, you're just way more suggestible, and so it's a deliberate tactic.

I've probably talked about this on here before, and this is a very writtenam story.

I apology, apologize, high apology, jeez.

But I was at a gas station once, and stop me if you've heard this one more.

But I was at a gas station once and a man came up to me and started shouting at me in another language and then took the gas uh nozzle pump pump the pump out of my hand that I had paid for and put it into his car and was just like shouting at me in another language.

So yeah, so I froze, and I was like oh, because at first I was like he made it.

He was making it seem like I had done something to him, and so I was just like stunned in this like confused state.

And then like it took me like ten seconds of being like hey, and and then I like ran off, and then I ran inside and told the gas station attendant and he drove off without even taking it out of his car.

So obviously this is like a non tactic, but like that thing of like I'm gonna bombard you and confuse you and so that you don't do anything to stop me.

It just felt like it feels like a microcosm of that.

I guess.

Yeah, I mean it could be used like if you were, you know, if somebody started to like drag you into an alley late at night to mug you or something.

I've heard of stories where people have used it in self defense, you know, to get away from somebody.

Oh that's smart.

Instead of having a typical reaction of being like, oh my god, no, what are you doing, like doing something so out of left field and bizarre that the person is momentarily stunned.

Long enough for you to just bold.

You know.

Anyway, I don't know, it's an interesting tactic.

Oh we shouldn't practice that, yeah, because I imagine it takes repetition to like have that be your instinct.

Yeah.

I feel like I've gotten myself out of a lot of pickles by just genuinely having a different brain than people expect me to be.

And I'm like, why are you wearing that shirt while they're like mugging me or something?

And then they're like yeah and run away.

Oh I love it.

Yeah, it's weird.

I did write down one thing he said in the g chat conversation because whether he intended to or not, he literally like spelled up this tactic.

Yeah, the quote is and it's all washed and mixed with misinformation that appears as lies and good and bad and up and down to make it so there is no on paper choice.

It forces you to listen to your heart, not your head, aka stop thinking because you're so confused, and just do whatever I tell you.

Yeah.

Yeah, that was that, like in the middle of one of his longer rants.

I think so.

Yeah, yeah, I just like, yeah, noticed those lines and I was like, oh my god, he's literally telling her what he's doing.

Yeah, I know that happens very often.

They do kind of tell you what they're doing.

And yeah he did.

He certainly did in that case.

And I noticed in some of those things too, where he would say read this over and over again, you know, which is another like drill us into your brain, which is just that concept that you know, you repeat something long enough you Yeah.

How did he involve your poor mother?

Oh?

Yeah, I mean he just got into her head as well.

And then can then sort of it.

I was having issues and he was taking care of me and basically prayed on her as well and got a bunch of money out of her, which is really got.

Wrenching for me.

Oh what a terrible person.

Yeah, yeah, it's really gross.

I mean, what's so icky.

On the other side of this is I was reminded of in that conversation that you had with your mom on this podcast where she says, and of course, I mean what she went through was so I mean beyond heartbreaking, but just on the other side of it, that realization.

I think she said, everything I'd been through, everything that I'd lost, had been for someone's sadistic entertainment.

Yeah, that really hit me because I sort of went through that too, just thinking.

Like, oh my god, I've been through.

This messed up, agonizing hell, and again what your mom went through was like way worse.

But either way, just realizing that all of that was you know, getting them off sadistically so to speak, And how rough that realize.

Yeah, I mean, I think like that idea.

Facing that idea is one of the things that keeps people on the hook so long because the realities, the two realities I have to choose between are one where everything's gonna be okay, there's an end to this, it's all the relief is coming, Like this was not all for nothing, there was a purpose or this sadistic fuck just destroyed my whole life and I alienated everyone I care about for no reason.

Right, and and I'm in this massive hole of debt.

So I'm like, oh, all these people money, they're either the way out that he keeps promising me with his hypnotic eyes that it's true and it's coming and it's just around the corner, or I have to face like the most epic humiliation and guilt and shame.

And of course that ended up being what happened.

Yeah, he was like forcing, like how you forced quite a mac.

He was like force, like psychosis almost upon you with just sleep deprivation.

Why can't they speak deprivation derivation?

Just like I don't know it just it's it's heartbreaking, and like we said, I think in the first part of this interview, it's just so unfathomable for non sociopaths to think sociopathically, so to think of somebody just being like damn, she crawled out of that while I'm in a torture again, Like let's.

See what you were like.

That wouldn't be fun at all, but like people like it.

Yeah, it's really it's really hard to imagine.

And Mark Vicente is coming out with a film called The Narcissists Playbook.

I think it is what the current title is going to be.

But he's coming out with a documentary about narcissists and sociopaths.

And I was able to see in a dance copy and I'm I just like, I can't wait for to come out.

I think it's going to do so much good.

Because somehow it really lands like it's one thing to read the Sociopathist, or you see it in fictional movies or maybe even here some fucked up stories in the news, or watch Bad Again or whatever.

But there's something about his film that it really kind of lands that, oh, my god, these people exist and they're they're out there.

And I think that that's part of how these people get away with what they do is because most of us, or a lot of us, just can't even imagine that that kind of psychology exists.

Yeah, or or people on TikTok who think everyone is that it's one of the other or the other.

Yeah, no, but I mean I'm excited to see that we have to have morek on.

I can't believe we haven't had them on yet.

Man, I made a list of excuses that he made.

I'm going to be mad about these.

I can already tell I'm looking at them.

I just I mean, I could have I could have pulled even way more.

But just to illustrate, the goalpost moving everything is pretty much John and ready to go.

Money was moved today.

I am waiting on confirmation and should get it today or tonight.

It's almost over.

Prepare for your life to change forever.

Throughout the week tomorrow we will start.

It's just like over and over again, like you're almost there.

You're almost there.

Yeah.

And also, what he got me to do a lot, which I think the term is like future faking.

But what he did and not like promising all these things, is he got me to get into the headspace of it by getting me to imagine things and asking me to make lists of all the things I will do as soon as the money comes in, right, And I mean it's sort of like what people do nowadays, and the whole like MANIFESTI thing right, and then even the whole thing with that that big fancy apartment that he said if we were going to buy, and so we're like going through the apartment and going through the emotions.

And then even though I'm not like a diamond for I don't care about that kind of stuff, but the thing where he took me to the top floor of Tiffany's and acted like he could buy anything.

But yeah, he would ask me to make can list, to make lists of start to prepare for.

All of this money coming in.

And I'm going to be liberated now to you know, grow the business in whatever way I want to.

And you know, I found some of those lists, the ones that I had done in my computer, and it was like phase one, phase two, and you know, I'm going to buy the building that the restaurant is in and I'm going to do this and I'm going to pay off of this and I'm going to expand this.

And it was all about gruwing the business.

But I think that's a tactic, is getting you to get yourself into that fantasy headspace.

So it's like baking it in.

Yeah you called it, h Ea, happily ever after, Yeah, happily after hia a little acronym to just go right two years.

Yeah, and I think that that's there's like a name for it.

I know Sarah Edmondson, who also from Mexiam, has talked about it.

It's basically it's like when they have a word it's like a thought stoper or something.

But it's basically like.

A terminating cliche.

Ye, yeah, exactly.

So like I could be making some kind of an argument or something and he'll just say, like aga, and it's happily ever after, And so that's going to get me to like jolt into that space of happily ever after whatever it is.

But yeah, he did a lot of that stuff.

How did he weaponize concepts from the secret?

Like obviously he's making you envision your dream world without living in the grounded reality of what's going on, But like you describe some other ways that he used that, Yeah, like can blame me.

When did the Secret come out?

I don't know when when that happened, probably like.

Two thousand and three.

I was a big fan.

Oh, I guess it wasn't a long time ago.

It was less bad.

It was more like later on he talked about the whole parallel realities exist at the same time, which now you hear all the time people on Instagram and whatever talking about how there's like parallel realities and maybe that's what that movie is about that I said I should see.

It is everything everywhere, all around.

So now it's a much more mainstream.

But I realize that's how we explain things.

When he took me away, was like, we're just sliding into this other reality.

And another like sort of Cambolish thing that he said was like at every moment, I could go left or I could go right, and then the whole trajectory of everything changes, and now I'm on a different plane of reality and all of those other realities exist, so so somehow we could just jump to another one at any time.

He's like giving you OCD two in a weird way, you know, Like I don't know.

That's a lot to be processing on a daily basis as a working woman.

Yeah, And there's there's in terms of that sort of secrety step.

Something I heard in and I think it was a podcast interview with one of the Epsteine victims, where she talked about him sitting her down and looking out the window at this sort of landscape nature out I don't know, his office or one of his big houses or something, and he had her closer eyes and like put his hands on her shoulders and then so when you open your eyes, everything's different now and it's all going to look magical and are now entering this other realm or something.

And she said, I opened my eyes, and she said everything looked brighter and more magical.

And that's just the power of suggestion, like super what, there's a real thing.

And he would sometimes do stuff like that to me too, yeah, you know, and then like yeah, throw in there that he could make me.

He definitely weaponized my age and the fact that that's something that most women are very vulnerable to or you know, just aging and getting older, and as if he would be able to prevent me from aging.

You know what I mean, like just all that shit.

Yeah, like every possible insecurity and way that he could get in.

And write the promise kind of seemed like you would be forever twenty five, your dog would be with you forever.

Yeah, And then he also seemed to weave in that he would just fuck off and disappear, which was like a good dream, yeah exactly, I know.

Yeah, he was smooth with that.

Yeah, because I think he figured like I think he knew I mean again, because I wasn't in love with him.

He had to have known that I didn't want to be with him.

So therefore in the fantasy had to be that all about me being able to grow my business and do all this stuff with independence, and he's kind of out of the picture.

Yeah.

Well, I can't believe we've already talked for this long.

Okay, I know you've had a little Yeah, so the restaurant closed and you didn't even know about it at first?

What went through your mind?

That was the hardest chapter to write.

And I don't remember, like I remember the moment I found out and absolute sort of panic and fear.

And then it's almost as if my brain shut off.

And the next memory I have is because he sent me to Florida.

And the next memory I have is being back in New York and walk I do remember walking in for the first time when it had closed, and I think that's just the you know that, that's like what happens psychologically, is we dissociate and forget.

But somehow I got myself on an airplane back from Florida, to New York and then you know, again I don't remember where did I go, which apartment was it at that time?

And then and then I remember walking into the restaurant.

But that was absolutely devastating.

At that point, my options were to get the restaurant back open, which felt like this cow in the world am I going to get this done?

Or like the only other option was I that I would have to like, I would have to like kill myself because what else would I do?

You know?

Yeah, I mean that that was the worst part of it.

That was way worse than any of the peoping sex stuff for anything else.

That was the worst part when that restaurant was closed, and that fear of you know, what if I can't get it back open and what if this is gone?

I that's your dream, that's your life's work.

Yeah.

Through all of this, what he was dangling to you was the promise that you would be able to achieve your dreams.

Yeah, yeah, and just yeah.

I mean, as we enter this kind of third act of the story, it's like, not only has the isolated you common tactic, but another common tactic that I didn't really think about but I've been researching, is just taking people out of their environment, and he took you away from your apartment and your home and your safe space, and he just starts moving you around the freaking world.

Like yeah, Carmen san Diego, You're bouncing around, and I cannot fathom how untethered you must have felt.

How it's just it's terrifying.

Even right now, I get really upset by I mean, it's not like I don't travel anywhere these days, but even just recently, somebody wanted somebody wanted me to, you know, like change some appointments and go to this thing that i'd have to take any track to just for the day.

And I got so upset just the idea of it.

For anybody else, it would be like, why is that such a big deal if he cares and you go, or you don't there so you got to change some appointments, Like well, it's a big deal.

It's just a one day trip.

But I got really upset by it because it just reminded me of being back in that place where at any time, you know, I mean, he did this to me all the time, like a total change of plan.

I mean the way he made me pack up that apartment and then I had to unpack it and then pack it all again and then unpack it, and like I never knew where I was going to be and for how long?

And then you'd have me fly here and go there.

And it's probably no wonder that I get crazy about traveling.

Totally makes sense.

Yeah, again, just recap for someone who maybe doesn't know the story.

Like this whole time, you are essentially like using your contacts to borrow money to take money out of the business.

You're like yelling at him and saying you don't want to do it, and like begging him to not make you do it.

But it's just like over and over again, these like transfers, these transfers, these transfers.

How did the arrest finally happen?

What led to the arrest?

Well, I mean what's strange is that the money that I got from investors, what ended up happening is that I was able to reopen the restaurant, right, which you know, I should be proud of myself for that.

I don't know.

That was quite good.

That was amazing.

Actually, I was able to.

Get the restaurant back open, and you know, that's that's probably a really hard part for people to read in the story, because then, of course, you know, he takes me away again.

But what's weird is that what I was prosecuted for was mostly the money that I got from investors, which the vast majority of it it went to reopen the restaurant.

It went to pay the back rents and vendors and employees and all that stuff.

So it didn't really make sense that I was being charged for defrauding investors because that money went into the reopened the restaurant.

It's just that he then took me away again and I disappeared right on the other side of this.

How do you.

Explain this insanely complicated, messed up situation, you know, to a prosecutor.

And I still naively thought that once they started link at it, they'd see that he's clearly a criminal con artist and I lost everything, and so why would they continue charging me as aggressively as they did.

But what ended up happening is it took me away and we were driving across the country and that's when he gave me that sort of story about parallel realities.

But by then I was completely I mean, the association was poor and poor at that point, Like I really was kind of behaving as a robotic child in a way.

And there's so much that I don't remember from that trip, but he just sort of convinced me that, yeah, like we're in like a parallel reality and you know, you'll get it all back, it'll all be fine.

And on this insane road trip from hell all over the country, at one point we end up in digon Borge, Tennessee, which is among the stranger towns can even possibly imagine.

It sounds sounds so crazy.

Yeah, it's such a strange place.

And one of the things I'll never know for sure is I really feel like he got us arrested on purpose, and we're going to be arrested, and for some reason, maybe he thought that the way it was going to play out would be different.

I don't I don't really know, But anyway, we were arrested, and then I was extracited back to New York and handcuffs and in various jails in first and Tennessee Dale in that small town, and then.

Being extradited to writers in New York.

Wise time writers too.

He deleted all of your emails, your email exchanges, except for one in which he tries to pin it all on you.

Yeah.

Yeah, so it makes sense.

To me that he thinks that that would be a useful move for him, because he didn't think about booking g chat.

Also, you do talk about this in the book, and we've talked about this here as well.

Of course, can had yet to enter the mainstream as a concept, and it still has yet to truly like penetrate the legal system in America, which sucks.

Yeah, but can you just briefly describe your jail experience and like sort of the deprogramming that happened over time.

Yeah, there was never like a wake up moment, you know, And of course I'm also in the middle of those very strange experience of being arrested and in jail, and you no, I've been for the most part, was such a one of those people that never got in trouble.

So the idea that I would be in jail was just and that's sort of traumatic in its own way.

So there's never like a wake up moment.

It was just this gradual, like layers of realizing that, oh my god, nightmare, like the worst, the worst, worst, worst case scenario is now coming true, and now this is the reality that I have to face, and I don't know how to explain it, and what we talked about before where that weird paradox of there being something comforting about him being around because he's the only one that knows what he's putting me through, so he's the only one who can get me out.

And now all of a sudden, it's just me and I'm having to face everybody alone, and I don't know how to explain it.

I don't know what to say.

I mean, it was absolutely brutal, that part of it.

And then yeah, I was at Wrikers for I think about a week, and then I got out on bail.

But I just naively thought that surely the prosecutor, once they look into this, will realize that they might not understand what happened.

But like, I'm a good person.

I've always been a law abiding, good person.

I never intended to do anything wrong.

And I lost as much as other people lost money and their jobs and stuff, and that was all heartbreaking and I feel responsible.

And all the shame for all of that happening.

But at the same time, logically I lost more than everybody and it's not like I was arrested with bags of other people's money trying to board a playing in Mexico.

Right.

I was just sitting there in this.

Hotel in Tennessee.

And the detective who arrested me, who I write about a lot in the book.

He's such a great character.

He'd be such a great character like in a film.

His name was Ray.

Brown, and he knew like what he saw, he saw mister Fox, he saw me, and he very quickly understood, Okay, I get what's going on here.

This is a certain type of a con artist, which she'd probably encountered in his long career of dealing with messed up people as as a detector.

And she's clearly, you know, the zoned out, traumatized victim of his.

So he got it, he really understood it.

But the prosecutor was a totally different story.

And so I ended up being prosecuted and then getting sentenced to go back to write there for four months.

I mean, I think we always talk on the show about like when did your shelf break or when did you like really realize this was a con.

But it was one of the first things in the book, and it just struck me as like damn, Like even when you were in the first jail in Tennessee.

You're like, maybe these are all actors, Like they're really good actors.

They're like you're in such a state of cognitive despair that you're like, is this just a set and like my final test?

And yeah, that's just wild that.

Your brain is still trying to cling on to some sort of like this must be real, this must be real, this must be real.

And then that process of like slowly being like, God, it's it's not I know, I.

Know, I mean, that's exactly what.

How is this?

Maybe some people are going to show up and whisk me out of here and it's all going to be okay.

But then that like little lifeline that I'm trying to hang onto is like it's thinner and thinner and thinner, and then eventually, you know, eventually I just have to accept the actual reality of what had happened.

I was very upset to find that he is not in jail and wasn't really for very long.

No, he got out before because he stayed in jail, he was never bailed out.

So even though I got a four month sentence, he was only spends to AYR and he'd already completed that, so he was out and free before I had to go back in, and so I'm going in to be locked up while he's out bringing and I'm I am now having to go in for four months.

But the reality is that that four months wasn't really the worst punishment.

The worst punishment was just the overall destruction of everything.

Like I would go to jail for whatever if you told me I could have it all back and just repair everything and rebuild the restaurant and whatever.

Like the jail in comparison, no big deal.

But it was having to come out the other on the other side of the whole thing, and you know, feeling like because of course I'm I'm not a sis here, Like I feel like it's all my fault, and I feel like all this destruction and all the pain that was caused to other people is my fault because I let this monster in my life, but it happened through me, and it.

Feels like it's my fault.

And then on top of that, the whole story doesn't even make sense to people, so they don't understand what happened.

And so, yeah, it's been a lot on the other side of it.

So what has your rebuilding process looked like I already wanted to write another book, but the story keeps getting more and more interesting because I moved back here to reopen, and yeah, I was brought back here to reopen, and then there was all this stuff that was misleading.

About it, and then they didn't pay me, and then they put me in a comprolizing situation, and then they demanded that I do X y Z that I never said I would do, and then friends like, okay, then there's no.

Restaurant and screw you.

You're on your own.

And by the way, now you're in waiting more debt.

Oh my god.

So yeah, the story continues.

And then in the middle of all this, publishing my memoir, which I had thought I was going to be publishing at the same time as a big restaurant relaunching and reopening, and like it was going to be this epic comeback.

You know, it can still happen, but I'm I'm in the thick of it right now, and so it's been really strange.

I'm happy that the book is out, and I'm happy to talk about it and I'm happy to promote it, but I also I chose the option of publishing it independently, which is basically like self publishing, because it was so important to me to maintain control.

Of the story.

And you know, one of the things we didn't talk about, which is fine because I've talked about it so much on other podcasts that I feel like I'm like, I sound like I'm a whiny complainer and for me.

But the Netflix show Bad Vegan like totally turned my story around and did it in this very messed up way where some people see it to what it was some people didn't.

But they also were supposed to put into that show that I was only paid an amount of money that was equal to what my employees were owned, because that's what I wanted, and I so badly wanted my employees to be repaid.

So I got seventy five grand.

All of that went to repay my employees.

They were made whole.

I got nothing more but the Fox who made that show and manipulated it so that all these people watch it and think that like there's a twisty ending, and I was in on it all along, and I'm like a criminal, like Anadeli con artist myself.

God, I watched that show and came away thinking you were awesome and great.

So I don't know what.

No, I appreciate that, but that's because that's because of the lens that you're right, which you're watching it, right, I'm telling you an enormous amount of people and not like don't came away thinking, oh, yeah, that's the twisty ending she's laughing with him on the phone at the end of the show.

She was, and they moved my words around to change what I said to him, right, And and those people who did that made millions of dollars from and I know that for a fact because I know the numbers.

I know what they made.

And that's and I And now it's like I'm trying to you know, I'm trying to like keep my shit together, and I have to pay my rent on credit cards and I'm in debt, and so it's it's hard to talk about because I don't want to wallow in that victim energy.

Like it's just a tough thing to navigate because it's hard not to be angry or to want to explain that and then at the same time not want to, you know, to kind of want to move past that and just put the past in the past and focus on myself.

But yeah, it's tough.

You got to talk to my mom because she did have an experience.

It wasn't as big of a show as Bad Vegan, but she did have an experience with a TV show that painted her as someone who's just like doing it because she wanted to be with this guy and all that, you know.

Like, oh my god, that's so.

I mean after hearing that podcast just this morning, I listening to the one you did with your mom.

That was heartbreaking to listen to, and yeah, it's sickening.

And then I remember, I think Steve Pawson told me that.

I think we said that that's why you want to ask to be in touch.

That's why she got her PhD and did her dissertation on the Traumatic impact of media misrepresentation, I think is what it's.

Yes, yeah, two things come up for me.

Number one, how dangerous it is to be a beautiful woman who is doing something super good in the world because people want to hate and they want to be like the vegan ordered pizza and cheese.

And loon blah blah blah blah blah.

So I stand with that.

And the number two, like, while acknowledging the very deep despair that is the current moment.

Like this book and this story is the perfect concoction to help so many people because there's just no if ans and butts around it.

You are smart, period, You are like a good person, period, and this horrifying thing happened to you that I'm like, this is going to be a staple of helping so many people get out truly totally.

I mean, it means so much to me when people are reading my book and they dm me that they feel less alone, they feel less stupid, or that it's really helped them understand their own situation.

The reader that will I hope be the most impacted if they could get in their hands, is I just wish a lot of young people would read it, you know, maybe young women who would identify with some of the things that you know, characterize my early life, or I would hope that it would get read by young people who haven't been through something like this, so that it really sinks in and if they encounter somebody like this, they'll think, huh, this kind of reminds me of that story and then go, now I have this awareness to look for red flags and just avoid the situation because.

You know, I don't know.

I would think that if I had read a story like mine, that when he started throwing some of these things at me, I might have thought, yeah, this kind of sounds like yeah, yeah, that means a lot to me that it could help people and also help all the psychologists to study this kind of stuff.

That's like, look, here's all of his words.

Here's not all of it, but here's a lot of his words and are back and forth, and I really lay out as much as I could his tactics.

Yeah, it is so amazing, and so to read his exact words, I mean, the whole time, I'm just like wanting to throw a book across the room because I'm like, fuck this guy, you know, but he's like he is gaslighting, he is manipulating, he is doing everything, and it's all right there.

And I do think that's really useful because we hear these stories a lot of the time, and we don't get to see what they're actually literally saying in real time so often.

So I think it's yeah, really kind of a treasure trove.

And that's part of why I published it, you know, independently self publishes, because I just couldn't bear to have a publisher control of my story.

After what happened with Bad Vegan Butt Show on Netflix, I couldn't bear to have somebody take control of the story and manipulate it or control it totally.

If you had to look for a gem of positivity or like useful lessons and all of the shit that you waded through, I mean, what would those be?

You know?

In my story?

Like I think I say this in the very beginning.

You know, nobody died.

What was lost is theoretically recoverable.

I thought I was in the process of recovering it and being able to get the.

Restaurant in the business and the brand back.

That still could happen.

I just wouldn't need the right partnership and the right people, because, as you imagine, I am left with a lot of trust issues.

I think somehow it broke me open in a way that if I imagine if I had just gone forth and unlucky dock blew up, I probably would have added some kind of a crash.

I don't know.

It's kind of like almost like people go through life and end up having some kind of a crisis that brings you to a place where you're forced to do a lot of self reflection and come to terms with healing all your family sounds calling, but healing all your childhood and really examining it all and becoming an extremely self aware person.

And weirdly enough, you know, mister Fox kept referring to when you wake up, this will all make sense, or when you wake up, you don't care about what people think anymore when you wake up.

And what's weird is I feel like I've had id of awaken right.

Just not in the way that you were expecting.

Yeah, it would have been a lot nicer to you know, maybe have just gotten really overworked and then done like the eat Prey Love version of it, you know, go to Bali and meditate for love.

Yeah, not be bombarded.

That would have been a much nicer awakening and the way that it happened.

But speaking of Elizabeth Gilbert, I, you know, I'm fascinated by I've listened to all her podcasts learning her new book.

And it's funny because she talks about Earth School and you know, our souls coming here to learn lessons, and I think about that, and I'm like, and then and then my head starts to go into a tripping place because you know it then would mean that some of the things that you said were potentially true, but he knows.

Yeah.

I think we talked on an episode we did with Anne, one of our former guests, where she was just like and now I can't think about any of that that she was like and now I just have to live in the boring none of that.

But yeah, I'm prone to thinking that way as well.

So yeah, I mean colts will weaponize your you know, if you have an inclination towards I don't know, any kind of a spiritual spirituality or spiritual life, they'll weaponize that.

But then it becomes hard to figure out wearing land on the other side of it, because so much of that now is associated with them and the things that they've said, and so you know, you want to reject it completely.

It's kind of like somebody who might have been abused in a church or whatever.

They're going to completely reject that religion and they don't want anything.

To do with it.

So it's a similar thing if somebody's kind of weaponized spirituality.

Now, how didn't get back to it in a place where you feel comfortable?

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, but it is true that when we hit a rock bottom.

It can be the doorway into absolutely a new level of self awareness and new level of empathy and connection with other people that we wouldn't have maybe accessed before.

But it doesn't mean it was worth it.

But a gorgeous a gorgeous book that will change lives.

Yeah, for sure.

Tell us the name again and where they can find it.

The name of the book is The Girl with the Duck Tattoo, and it is because of the way I published.

It's not like it's not like you can find it in every bookstore.

But you can get a signed copy from me, which is the amazing option.

You can also get it directly from the printer, which is another good option that bypasses Amazon and is a better I'm just being like full disclosure, but a much better margin for me.

Its the same price as Amazon.

And you can also just get it from Amazon, and then you can also get the kindle version on Amazon, which is the most affordable way to get it.

And all of those links are I made a website for the book, just the Girl with the Duck Tattoo dot com that has all of those links, and also I put by chapter photos.

There's tons of photos that you can look at that are listed by chapter.

Well, I'm going to go look at those me too.

My Instagram is where I'm communicate with people most and that's just my full name at Instagram.

I'm pretty easy to find that and all those links are on Instagram.

Too, amazing.

Thank you so much for talking to us for so long.

Yeah really, yeah.

No, I'm I mean, I'm happy to do it, and this is fine.

I did a podcast few weeks ago that was six hours.

So that's honestly how long I wanted to know.

But yeah, yeah, well this is very different because you guys read the book and I can't tell you how much I appreciate that.

It's a much much richer conversation because of that, and also, you know, your personal experiences means that you understand it and it's a much richer discussion.

Oh hey, well I loved it.

Everybody, go buy the book.

Thank you so much, Thank you Sarma for that incredible conversation.

Yeah, so last week, Lola, you asked me if I would join this cults.

I did, and you would, but you can't because you don't have enough money.

I can't afford that, and I also do not have enough money otherwise I'd be on it.

I did think that there was an interesting takeaway, which is that people have this misconception that somebody can be so smart that this would never happen to them.

Right.

And she went to Wharton, she worked on Wall Street.

If you read her book, she was one of the most effective people at like every job she did.

Basically working at all the big banks.

She's running up the ranks like she's a genius.

And creates this amazing restaurant Like yeah, truly, and we see it all the time.

So many of our guests are so highly educated, so thoughtful, so just incredibly intelligent.

It doesn't matter if you get the right person who knows the right tactics to break down your defenses, to break down your critical thinking, yep, to overwhelm your time, to confuse you, you know, like, and.

Then opt to ikers you go, oh man, Yeah, it's scary stuff.

It really is.

But I am so glad that that chapter of her life is over.

Me too.

I can't wait to be eating her ice cream someday.

I know, if there are any like money people listening who are not scammers, please invest in her new restaurant.

I want to eat there.

Read the book and maybe let's do it in La.

Yeah, yeah, because I can't find in New York.

I can't afford that right now.

No, we can't, We can't go there.

As al is, thank you so much for listening to another week of Trust Me.

Make sure to leave us a review we love a review with five stars stars.

And remember to follow your gut, watch out for radflax.

And never ever trust me.

Bye.

This has been an exactly right production hosted by me Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth.

Our senior producer is Gee Holly.

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberla, and our guest booker is Patrick Kottner.

Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation, Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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