You're about to listen to one of our favorite episodes of trust Me.

Diane Lake joined us in twenty twenty one to discuss her experience with the Manson family.

Then scroll back in your podcast app to listen to part two of this conversation with Diane from May nineteenth, twenty twenty one.

If you're new here followed the show so you don't miss the July thirtieth th return of trust Me on the Exactly Right Network.

Trust Me, trust.

Me, trust Me.

I'm like a swat person.

I've never lived to you, and we never.

Have a live.

If you think that one person has all the answers, don't Welcome to trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief, and the abusive power from two non Manson girls who've actually experienced it.

I am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth.

Today our guest are Diane Lake and Deborah Herman.

Diane Lake, aka Snake, was the youngest member of the Manson family, and Deborah is the co author of her book called Member of the Family, My Story of Charles Manson, Life Inside is Cold and the Darkness that ended the Sixties.

It is a great book.

Recommend it.

I read it.

It's episodes a two parter, folks, because there's so much to the story.

I cannot believe that Diane was willing to come on and talk to us.

I am very grateful because this is fucking awesome.

So for everyone who hasn't read Helter Skelter and watch every Charles Manson doc like I have, Diane did not have anything to do with the Tate Lobyon com murders.

In fact, she was actually a key witness in the trial that put Charlie in prison and the girls.

She's going to tell us about the tumult and trauma of her life leading up to meeting Charles Manson, whom she knew as Charlie, living in Los Angeles in the nineteen sixties with counterculture parents and bouncing around communes with grown men going after her, and what it was like when she first met Charles Manson and his girls when she was just fourteen.

We talk about what it was like being with Charlie dumpster diving, stealing cars, taking lsd and having sex.

And in part two next week, we'll get into Charlie's downward spiral as he grew paranoid and began talking about a race war, learning about the murders, testifying at the trial, and finally facing her trauma.

I just love Diane and Deborah, both of them.

They're so great.

I feel like they're us in you know, however many years like I feel like we will be them.

We're them, They're us were them.

But before we get into that, our cultiest thing this week, we have a story we're going to talk about that's in the news.

We sure do, and if y'all haven't heard about it, it's kind of crazy.

Megan, do you want to begin?

I'm sure there is a woman named Amy who has started going by Mother God.

It appears that started happening around twenty eighteen.

She started an ascension cult, got some followers.

But why Amy is in the news this week is because she was discovered in a basement, mummified dead, with makeup around her eye sockets and wrapped in Christmas light.

Let's be clear it was glitter around her eye sockets.

Apologies.

Her name was Amy Carlson and her group was called Love Has Won.

Yeah, she often went by the name Mother God.

And there were just like seven people in the house, right, yep, and two two kids just chilling, so let's be clear.

Her body was not recently dead.

Her body was so badly decomposed.

Her body was so dead they could not even get her fingerprints.

Yeah, she was extremely dead.

It's not funny, it's just so, it's just like what was happening.

So the group apparently said that she ascended.

Oh, here's some of the quotes.

So on Sunday May first, a man who appeared to be a member of the group positive video during which he said mom has ascended and quote completed her contract, and then he said is the mission over?

No.

Carlson apparently abandoned her family to teach spiritual intuitive ascension sessions fifteen years ago, so not twenty eighteen.

Oh apologies, my god.

I mean, she was on Doctor phil last year talking about her group.

But it doesn't look like they murdered her.

It looks like, according to one article, she was like so obsessed with colloidal silver, which a lot of like homeopathic medicine people, champion, But if you take too much coloil silver, it can be poisonous.

I think.

Also it can turn you blue.

If you google coloidal silver blue person, you will see that it can actually literally permanently turn your skin blue.

Which is fucking insane.

But it suspected that she was selling it as a quote, a cure for COVID nineteen, not a cure of my friends, and she was taking so much of it and she had cancer, so it seems like she probably died from these different things and then they just created this shrine around her body, don't you.

Think, right?

Right?

Yeah, for sure?

And honestly, I gotta say, I was listening to some death positive podcast last year and they were talking about this ritual, this like death positive ritual, and I don't remember what it's actually called, but where someone who's like your guide through your grief comes over and you actually let the body remain in your home for three days and like say goodbye to your loved one properly, and you know, cover them in beautiful things, and the practitioner or whatever basically keeps dry ice around so the body doesn't decompose.

Actually thought that that sounded really nice.

I don't know.

We're so afraid of death and we're so like we want to avoid it, we don't want to see it, And there's something I think that's really cool about like facing it and making it be this loving goodbye ritual instead of like, get it out of here.

We don't want to see that.

We don't want to know about death, you know what I mean.

So that version of it, I actually think is really cool.

Letting the body fully decompose in this bedroom, in this house you're all staying, and maybe not as much.

But I don't understand.

Was she mummified or was she decomposed?

I guess One article said mummified.

One said her body was so badly decomposed that they couldn't get her fingerprints.

So I don't know what that means.

What does that mean?

Well, one of I don't know.

One of the interesting things about her is that she in a past life was Jesus.

And Marilyn Monroe.

Wow, it's amazing how many people were Marilyn Monroe in a past life and Jesus, Like, so many people were them in a past life?

Who was it really?

You know exactly which one?

Who's the real one.

One of the most traumatizing moments of my life is when my cat psychic told me my last life was on a tugboat with my cat as my husband.

Wait, who did I'm sorry?

Can you repeat that?

Yeah?

My cat psychic told me that my last life I was on a tugboat and my cat was my husband.

So you have a cat psychic?

Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, So.

Like a psychic who tells you about your your cat right right, and well just cat.

I only had one session with her.

It was a birthday gift, and she was you know, what's the word, uh not real?

Yeah no, but I figured but uh.

Hearing that your past life was just like, wow, cool, We're like stealing food from restaurants and then going and hiding out on our tugboat.

And I was just like, no, tell me, I was Marilyn Monroe.

Tell me, I was, Jesus, what is this?

This is crazy?

You know what I would love to do.

I would love to go to a bunch of psychic people who tell you what your past lives were, and give them all different information about myself and see the different like variations of past lives that come up.

Clearly, y'all, I do not believe in past lives.

I know that some of our listeners might, I personally do not, nor do I believe that you can determine what your cat's right past life was.

I mean, I wish I didn't believe in past lives, but I think I do so bummer but yeah, yeah.

This lady, classic classic Meganaloa, Am I right?

Yeah, I mean past lives indicates that I'm going to have to come back here again, which is just like lol.

But yeah, I don't know, man, what do you think you'll be in your next life?

Probably like West Kardashians child or.

Something that sounds right for you.

I guess I'll come back as jurtin the ground baby.

Okay, okay, anyway, So, can't wait to talk to Diane and Deborah.

Are you ready?

Ready, Let's do it?

Okay, here we go.

Welcome Diane and Deborah Dane Lake and Deborah Herman.

So, Deborah, you are the co author of Diane's book Member of the Family, My story of Charles Manson, Life Inside his Could and the Darkness that ended the Sixties.

Can you both say your names for our audience so they can tell the difference between your voices.

Hello, I'm Diane Lake and I'm Deborah Herman and we're used to like talking at the same time.

Thank you guys so much for being here.

This is truly a treat.

I'm so excited to talk to you.

There's so much again into I finished your book today and Wow, what an amazing story and so many just incredible details.

The way you painted the picture both of you, Yeah, just really gave me a sense of what it felt like to be there, which is something that you don't really get to see very often.

I feel like, often, you know, stories focus on the graphic details and stuff, but I really enjoyed reading about your life specifically.

So start us at the beginning.

So, Diane, you originally grew up in Minnesota.

Your dad was an artist who was sort of obsessed with this like California lifestyle and the counterculture movement that was happening.

Your family moves to Los Angeles, and that's when your life kind of begins to change.

Can you tell us about how your parents started doing LSD and the first time that you took LSD my.

Mom actually got high on marijuana with the couple down the street in Santa Monica.

My dad was obviously ripe to try it as well, so they tried it and remember, you know, lots of laughing, and you know, they it seemed like it was a good thing for them.

I smoked some marijuana with my dad one day, and then he really got into Timothy Larry's whole rap about this epiphany, you know, this new world.

You know, it was this alternative kind of reality that LSD was like a mind opener to, you know, some truths that he had been looking for.

And so the first trip I took, I took with my two best friends in my living room and we read Timothy Larry's Tibetan.

Book of a Dead And I just want to interject A lot of people focus on that point in the book where you know, Diane, I think you must have been what thirteen is now taking LSD and her father's in the other room.

He knows it's happening, and they consider it in the context of today.

Right, So if you're looking at it from the context of that time frame, which we tried to create, that whole the feeling, the time, the place, it was very different because the purpose of the psychedelic movement was to expand your mind, to change the world and to make it a better place.

And so for her parents, I mean, at least presumably it was like a sacrament.

They were really thinking was going to be good for her.

Right, It wasn't like handing her heroin and being like go get addicted to this now child.

Yeah, totally different.

Very different.

It was.

In fact, Lola, you make a very good point.

In today's world, we would perceive that act as tantamount to giving your child heroin.

But that's not what the times were like at that time.

It was tune in, turn on, drop out, and it wasn't people using drugs.

Yeah, some people were.

The psychedelic movie real use exactly.

It wasn't about that, like a drink and a beer or you know right, it was about my expansion.

What I found fascinating about it all is in the beginning of the book just how completely different your life was from anything like that.

You know, you and your mom are like on the sewing machine and cooking, and suddenly it's this entirely different world.

And I just can't even imagine what that must have felt like.

I know, I have to give my mom a lot of credit.

I mean, she really trusted my dad and she trusted God.

I mean, she really felt like she had seen an angel at the end of her bed, you know, telling her everything was going to be okay.

When we were planning this dropping out because you know, we've had a big yard sale and sold everything and my dad had been converting a bread truck, which is like a step van, you know, like a FedEx step vand that you see.

Now, can you explain what dropping out means?

Oh?

Back then, dropping out meant that you gave up pretty much, gave up all your worldly possessions and you know, just lived on a day to day basis, you know, trusting God basically for your food and clothing.

And you know, at least in my parents' mind, that's what they were aiming for.

My dad was a big proponent of non materialism.

Because it was anti establishment.

So many social changes were happening during those years, during the late sixties, middle to late sixties, culminating of course in nineteen sixty nine with the crimes.

But at that time, everybody it was the Flower Children.

They were all gathering at hate Ashbury because that's what the LSD was doing.

It was creating this sense of connecting with one another, and so they were just letting life come and they were getting out of the establishment, which.

Is awesome, Like LSD.

I love LSD.

It's great, it's awesome.

Like what, yeah, you know, I don't know.

I don't want to take it.

I don't want to do it.

There's a line.

But yeah, but that was you know people again.

You can't look at it through the lens of twenty twenty one.

Yeah, you have to look at it as what social changes were happening right before the sixties and the changing tide.

You had a very repressed post war society in the fifties.

I have an imprint in my publishing company of TV classics, and I watch the old shows.

You know, her Mother and Diane.

They were like the role of women and they were doing the women stuff and everything was changing, right.

The descriptions of being in Los Angeles in the sixties sound so exciting.

Yeah, I mean, you're going to these love ins, You're seeing the Beatles at your stadium, You're hanging out in Laurel Canyon and with all the hippies, and everyone's like happy and loving, and at least on the surface, it's like you're living this communal lifestyle in these various forms before you ever meet Charles Manson.

So like the people coming over and living at your house and you know you're used to a communal situation.

Yeah, no, exactly.

My dad got involved with the Oracle.

They a group of them wanted to start the newspaper that was successful in San Francisco in Los Angeles, and he was an artist and he got he started doing those day glow posters, Oh fun, the day glow the neon psychods, and so he was doing that for them, and he was, you know, in their art department.

And then they lost their lease or whatever at their house, and so a bunch of them moved in with us, and then the paper kind of dwindled.

And it was through the oracle that my dad and a couple of the other guys decided, Hey, let's you know, go on the road.

Let's drop out, right, And so they bought these bread trucks and started converting them into like a camper.

Wow.

And just to see how exciting that sounds to you as a young person in today's world, everything was beautiful until it was car was what happened to you when you went with that guy to San Francisco.

Well, a lot of water had gone under the bridge at that point.

But my parents were basically arguing about what we were just talking about the role of a woman, the role of a man.

It was changing, right, And they weren't arguing in a mean way, but they were just philosophically discussing it, you know, and it did kind of overlap into you know, what are the responsibility?

My dad was always trying to get my mom to come and sit on the couch with him and read and listen to Alan Ginsburg and you know, all these enlightened you know, Autus Huxley, all these enlightened people.

But she had she was a domestic at heart, you know, she liked keeping a nice house and you know, cooking, providing for her family.

She had three children, right, I was the oldest.

Anyway, At one point we had separated and they had given me a note, you know, basically giving me emancipation as a miner to live with this couple.

And then they went to the Grand Canyon and then they came back and they were going to go to Big Sir, and they said, hey, you know, they came by and said you want to go with us, and it was like yeah, So I went to Big Sir with them.

And it was there at Essalon that I met this man, I don't know, like thirteen years older than me, and when you're only fourteen, that's considerable, you know.

Yeah, And he was going to go to San Francisco and you know, he asked me to go with him, and I said, sure, yeah, I wanted to go to San Francisco.

By that point, I had enough people that you know, felt that San Francisco Haye Ashbury area was the scene, you know, that was the place to go.

And so I went with him, and he ended up being a drug dealer and left me in his house for you know, basically two weeks on my own, and I ended up getting really sick, and when he came back, he took me back to Big sur and they nursed me back to health.

And then I basically escaped because they lived behind locked gates and they didn't think I was ready to leave, and so but I was ready to leave, and so I hopped the fence and stuck out my thumb and miraculously got a ride for like three miles by probably some lecherous old man, and I wasn't cooperating, so he dropped me off, and then I stuck my thumb out again and I got this incredible you know, I got these three angel women in a white Cadillac picked me up, and they wanted to go to Hollywood and they wanted to meet Dean Martin and one of the gallons.

They were from New Zealand and anyway, so I knew the way to Hollywood.

I knew enough, you know, basically Pacific Coast Highway.

I knew some people there.

I got them to the Sunset Strip and they dropped me off there, and then I went to visit a you know, a person or I knew somebody that knew somebody I was looking for, you know, a friend of mine and my parents, you know, like where are they?

Because they they weren't, you know, I didn't know where they went.

I left, I left.

Them, and they weren't when I went back three weeks later, and so then it turned out they were at the hog Farm, so that I ended up at the hog Farm.

You know, another iconic commune back then.

It was Hugh Romney and Bonnie Jean, his wife, were kind of the leaders, and you know they later he round me later became Wavy Gravy.

Wavy Gravy, you.

Know, of Woodstock fame, and they weren't too happy with me showing up.

My parents were happy to see me, but you know, the community below wasn't too happy with this commune living on this hill, and so they had posted guards you know, to not let anybody go up there.

And so here I am, you know, this underage, sexually active girl.

So they had this little talk with me that they weren't comfortable with my being there because I was jailbait, you know for some of the young musicians and the young men coming up to the farm, which they called it.

Right, it's the girl's fault when an age and appropriate man wants to have sex with her, he must kick the girl out, not the men.

Sorry, go on right, right, So, and we appreciate your perspective on that, because it was very true the women, it was it was always going to be her fault because she was an underage you know what.

It was supposedly the sexual revolution, m but that was so one sided, right, that's my opinion.

I mean, one of Charlie's things was always, you know, you get rid of your inhibitions.

So in other words, spread your legs far and wide and do my bidding right, and if you don't, it's your hang up.

It's your hang up.

That's so.

I just can't imagine how crazy that must have made you feel.

Because free love everyone's doing.

If like, if I'm not participating in this movement, or I don't feel comfortable with the sexual revolution, Like what's wrong with me that I have personal boundaries?

You know, I just can't imagine how difficult it must have been at that time.

Oh there were no boundaries.

That wasn't even on our rainar.

Then this is your generations right right, benefit of boundaries, right right, part of the whole.

Knee too thing.

I mean, like, you know, People Magazine did this three page spread on me, and when the book came out, it came out in the same issue where Harvey Weinstein and all his accusers were on the front page, right, And I was like this little one by two inch blurb on the front page.

But it really was hand in glove with the whole me Too movement because I was coming out of my shame of being associated with what with being taken advantage of right?

You know, It's like I was the one that had the shame.

I was the one that didn't want to be associated and I mean I still really don't, but it was like that's what these women were coming up against, you know, is that hey, wait a minute, I was taken advantage of right.

They you know, the casting couch thing, yes, is very you know, we all knew that was true, that we just did.

I didn't realize the consequences and what it was really doing that it was the man.

That was in charge of all of that, right, you know.

And Charlie.

Charlie wanted to be a pimp.

You know, he learned how to be a pimp when he was in jail so that he could come out and he could control women.

I learned that from your book.

That's such an interesting fact that he, like, he's just straight up used those tactics very intentionally.

And we all were broken in some fashion or other.

Well vulnerable, yeah.

Had been abused or you know, had had been kicked out of our family.

I mean I was sort of really kicked out of my family.

I think that Bonnie, Jean and Hugh had a couple of friends come up and kind of very nicely asked me would I like to come and live with them?

You know, and then they're the ones that introduced me to Charlie.

I mean, we don't have to dwell on this part of all, but you did experience so much abuse and so many inappropriate relationships already by the time that you fourteen, and reading about that couple made me really angry.

I don't I can't imagine how you must have felt in your life.

But we'll get into that in a minute.

But yeah, what a vulnerable position to be in.

And fourteen is so young.

It is so young.

I'll tell you something, Lola.

When I started working with Diane, I didn't know what to expect.

I was just thrilled and we connected and we started taking this journey together where I would be interviewing her and getting the story.

And what was so shocking is that during the first interview Diane was very kind of flat affect and would just tell you as if she was one place and her body was somewhere else.

And then she told the story that people would have to read the book, but there's a very vivid scene of her childhood and she said, she told me that particular story and then just glossed over it.

And I said, wait, wait, wait, back up, do you realize what happened to you?

And there was lack of awareness And it wasn't really until we took the whole journey together where Diane was able to reflect back and say, you know, I was a victim, right, So there wasn't awareness of inappropriate relationships and even how Manson treated her.

There was a lot of brainwashing.

Oh my gosh, yes, so you're at the hog Farm, Wavy Gravy essentially kicks you out.

Tell us what happens next.

Then this other couple, and I think that they were friends of Hugh and Bonnie Jean, showed up and invited me to come and stay with them.

And they didn't live at the hog Farm, and so it's like, yeah, because I didn't feel welcome.

They didn't kick me out.

They said I could stay there, but they wanted me to sleep in the attic, right, and I just I just didn't feel welcome.

And my parents, you know, had already given me emancipation, and I'd been separated from them for you know, a month or so, and they didn't unfold me.

Like I said, they were struggling with their new roles as men and women, and the kind of consensus there was it takes a village, which I think Hillary Clinton really coined that phrase.

But that was the idea, is that the adults in the commune kind of collectively looked over and after all the children.

Or not or not right or not.

But I mean that was the idea.

Until you become of jailbait age and then and then you're up or then you're in the attic.

Right, and so anyway, so I went with this other couple, but I didn't enjoy being with them.

They shot speed and I wasn't interested in doing anything besides smoking some marijuana and taking melosty.

And so they invited me to come along with them to this to hey, meet this groovy guy and his girls, is basically was the invitation.

And so I went with them and and I walked in and it was this house that I'd already lived in with other people, so I knew the house that I'd never heard of.

Charlie and the girls and Isa right, yeah, at the at the base of the canyon, just in this little you know, it's now like a park.

It's like a preserve or a reserve type park.

Anyway, I walked in, and I think it was Lynette that came up and went, Diane, you know, Charlie, Diane's here.

It's like, what you're like, who.

Are you right?

How do you know me?

It was magical and flabbergasting all at the same time.

And Charlie got up from the circle and came and offered me a drink of his root beer and embraced me and you know, welcome, hey, come and join us in the circle, which was, you know, what we did most of the time, especially in the evening.

We'd gather in a circle and Charlie would plays guitar and play sing his songs and we would sing along.

Wow.

So and Lynette is squeaky correct, Yeah, yeah, Okay, this redhead girl comes up and is like so excited to meet you, and you don't know who she is, but you're suddenly welcomed by this whole group of strangers.

What was your first impression of Tarlie?

Like, what did he seem like?

What was the vibe?

Fun?

Totally, you know, playful.

He wasn't an imposing figure at all.

He's a short little guy, you know, or was a short little man, and you know, with curly hair.

And really, I think I think we've analyze this.

I think he was like thirty three.

Well, my youngest son is thirty one, and I certainly don't think of him as a lecherous old man, you know, and my oldest son is thirty seven.

But even when he was thirty three, I mean, it was like, oh you know, handsome, and also you need.

To understand there was an archetype of the long haired guitar playing guru type person at that time, and he would have fit into every group I knew, even though I was just younger enough that I missed some of that early mid sixties.

But everybody, you know, if you were at a party at your friend's house and somebody took out a guitar and they had long hair, you were all enamored.

And I mean the guy with the guitar.

That's why they played the guitar right, they could get the girls.

At that time.

He did not look or behave in ways that were so outrageous.

He was also so love bombing with each of the women that even if he told them, hey, I just got out of jail, it was like he gas lit them in a way that made them feel sorry for him.

And all the women wanted to take care of him and nurture him.

And it wasn't like today we might say, oh, you just got out of a stint in jail and say, well, maybe I shouldn't hang out with you.

It wasn't like that at all.

And it was like for forgery.

Forgery, and see.

How they can say now even today.

Oh, it wasn't that big a deal, right, he just was forging you know why he wasn't He was a perfectly nice psychopath.

I mean right, No, when I could see how if you're already rebelling against the system and that's like part of your whole idea, your worldview, then that would be okay.

Yeah, he was perfect for it.

And I'm sure he was very sexy, and he had trained himself to appeal to women.

And from my research, because Diane, when we wrote the book, it was Diane's memories, we did nothing to pollute that.

Diane hadn't seen movies.

She maybe read Helter Skelter back when it came out in the day, but she hadn't seen all the videos and interviews.

So I was doing the research on the side.

I read one account at one point one of his girlfriends basically said, you're a terrible lover, and she taught him how to please the women, and then he went back into jail and learned at the feet of the pimps right how to control women.

So he was training himself, right.

And one of the things I saw on the book was that one of the things the pimps taught him was to make the women feel really special and make them feel really loved, which obviously came very much into play later on Diane.

I'm sure you can attest to that he had that.

Damn.

Yeah, he was a very special lover.

I mean he often would start with this, just this give and take of your hands, you know, standing in front of each other.

You know, it was a dance.

It was sweet.

It was to me, it was it was.

I remember memory of him in the early early day.

Yeah.

Right, you're putting your hands together, like touching hands and moving them around.

Is that kind of like?

Yeah?

And it was just like this give and take, you know, it.

Was it was like he was leading, right, he.

Was leading, but not forcefully.

I mean it was it was a dance.

It was far play, but it was very sweet, you know, and it was very gentle intimate.

It seems very intimate.

Yeah, he really got under under their skin.

Yeah.

It wasn't a wam bam, thank you ma'am.

You know, right, made feel like they were the only one in his life.

M So you spend this wonderful night with him, how do you end up actually coming to stay with them?

I kind of went back and forth for a few weeks.

They were planning this bus trip to New Mexico and Arizona, and it was like right after Thanksgiving, and I didn't want to be left behind.

So the gentleman that had introduced me to Charlie, Richard getting you know, after this back and forth for a couple of weeks, he said, you know, I don't I get a bad vibe.

You know, I don't think you should go with them, But I didn't want to be left behind.

It I didn't, you know, where am I going to go?

I didn't want to go live with Richard and Leegre, and I didn't want to go back to the I didn't feel welcome at the hog Farm, and my parents weren't really paving the way for me, you know, because they'd emancipated me, and I was on my own, and I was the oldest of the family.

And I had always been very capable and very an a student, and I'd always been very independent and capable.

Right, it's a new world.

So anyway, that that's what happened.

So I went with them.

Can you tell us real quick why they recognized you?

Well, it turned out that Charlie had gone up to the hog farm while I was in San Francisco.

And of course, you know, you've got two leaders, you know, you've got you round me and you've got Charlie, two egos.

You know, it was like there, there wasn't like a mutual and they didn't you admired And they called him black Bus Charlie.

But my mom because he had a bus that was black.

Yeah, my mom loved the girls and they all went on a bus trip.

They went on a bus trip out to the desert looking for gas tanks.

Charlie was obsessed with gasoline.

He was always, yeah, he always was looking for gas tanks that he was going to weld to the bottom of the bus so that he could have this you know, unlimited or you know, as much of an unlimited supply of gas as possible.

And then as he like descended into madness, he often talked about digging this huge pit and hijacking a gas tanker and burying it in the desert so that we would have Yeah, no, I mean that was one of his crazy illusions or delusions.

He even mentioned it as an aside comment in the transcripts of the trial, where and people didn't really catch it what he was talking about.

But because I was so familiar with Diane's story, and then I also did the book Inside the Mansengery, and it examined all of the transcripts and makes.

Us oh, it showed up again.

It does where he says, well, I just want to go back to the desert and look for gasoline and whatever.

Oh what an interesting detail.

Yeah, it's fascinating.

And it's not something people would notice if you didn't understand his obsession.

And it was all about going off the grid.

Really, ultimately, it always is, isn't it.

Yeah, because my parents had had this encounter with him, and I was in San Francisco and they talked about that we're going to go to San Francisco.

Charlie and the girls, We're going to go to San Francisco.

My mom gave them my picture.

They gave them a photo of me, and you're like, Hey, when you're in San Francisco, look for this girl.

You know, it's my daughter, you know.

And whether you know it's I don't know if she said bring her back, you know, or just you know, see how she's doing.

I'm sure she was worried about me.

I mean, you know, I know she was worried about me.

So it was like either bring her back or you know, bring me a report or something, right, and so but I didn't know that.

I didn't have that conversation with my mom before I met Charlie and the girls.

And so when I walked in, see, they already knew.

Me blind magic like magic Charlie, which, of course he used all of his seeming miracles to continue to create the illusion that kept his people loyal.

You know.

Yeah.

Oh, I was so fascinated by the postulating, the term postulating and what that meant for you guys, I mean, can you explain that?

Is well, his idea of postulating was just like I mean, I think that there was another, you know, leader of something that talked about positive thinking.

So think about something positively and it will come to you.

Well that's what postulating was.

So it was like if we needed money, if we needed clothes, if we needed food, if we needed gas, you know, we would think positive kind of like a meditation.

And I mean it's it's like a prayer, but it wasn't called a prayer, right, you know, it was it was just sending out into the universe your needs and it was kind of suspect in some ways.

But I mean later when I thought about it as a mature adult, But back then we just thought it was like, Wow, he's really powerful.

Because your needs were getting met because you would he would always get right.

And I'm sure that he manipulated some of that.

Oh, I'm sure.

Yeah.

That was also how people were thinking.

And LSD would expand your idea, your consciousness and this sense of connectedness to all everything, the rocks, the universe, right, and it was like they were creating this, you know, this manifestation of anything that they needed.

And that's also the idea of going off, going away from the establishment and living off the land and everybody loves each other, and you know, it was that was the mindset.

How often was he on LSD.

We took honesty pretty frequently, I think that.

But he had a couple of bad trips.

I remember there was one really chaotic trip.

We had decorated the back ranch house with tapestries, you know on the walls and the ceilings, you know, the Indian tapestries and you know, mattresses.

It was you know, we were gonna have had a special guest musician who played the c tar.

That's all I remember is we took the LSD.

We're all ready.

I think it was Paul Watkins that was on the cetar and he plucked one string and it just was like and I was gone.

I mean, I like followed that note into infinity.

Wow, I'm not encouraging the use of drugs a little too fun.

I can't remember anything until I woke up in the morning and the place was a shambles.

Well, and there's another thing that Diane remembered and also was confirmed through other research, is that it's possible that some of the reason that Manson ultimately did descend into madness was he did have a really bad trip.

It was a messionic trip where he claims to have relived the Crucifixion.

And also, which is not uncommon, Alan Ginsberg, when he took his LSD trip, suddenly became messionic.

So the whole generation of people were following someone who basically had a psychotic break, right, And so you think of it that way, and the followers or the family they were taking LSD.

He was administering it regularly, but he didn't always take.

It m.

Or he didn't take as much right, so he could.

Be in control.

Yes, especially after that trip and then there had been I mean the trip, I think the trip where he experienced the crucifixion that he he was the messiah on across took place in San Francisco.

But then he I remember a trip when we were at the Spiral Stirk House where he re enacted.

That right is subconscious, you know.

And on LSD, you know, you see these light streams from your hands and it just an ore and so it's you know, it's very you see lots of light reflected and so with anyway, so he had us convinced, you know that we were seeing like a stigmata.

I'm sure that he used that.

Can you paint a picture of just what life was like at first once you're living with them, Like what are you doing every day?

Well, you know, everybody needs to eat and go to the bathroom and shower, and so a lot of you know, your life is revolves around you know, procuring and taking care of those needs.

So cooking, you know, we did cooking and cleaning, and we made love and in the evening we'd get in the circle and sing songs and he'd give us a his little talk tos, which you know, we're often about getting rid of your inhibitions and just the whole new alternative culture kind of mindset.

So it wasn't it wasn't a total break from what I'd kind of heard before, but it had just taken on, you know, a new life.

And as we moved along, he became more protective.

You know, he discouraged outside relationships unless I mean, if he were going to bring somebody into the family.

But he was very selective.

Was he very selective about the women as well, or just mostly selective about the men?

I think mostly the guys, Yeah, yeah, but I think the girls, you know, the girls too.

I mean, he wanted he wanted them all to be beautiful, you know, because as things moved forward, you know, and we got closer to going to the desert, and once we, you know, were introduced to the desert place, he'd always had been talking about this black white race war.

And it wasn't until the White album came out, but it got nicknamed, you know, Helter Skelter.

But the whole idea he wanted beautiful.

He wanted us to make beautiful children and repopulate the world, you know, after the apocalypse because that's basically what it was going to be, you know, and then the black Man wasn't going to be able to handle it, and then he was they were going to ask for Charlie's help.

You know, right, I don't know.

I mean, it's just like when I talk about it, I just I think, you know, oh my gosh.

He sprinkled a little bit of everything in there.

Yeah he did.

And I think he I'm a special teacher or I'm a retired special education teacher specialized in autism, and you can get stuck, you know, you can get stuck in these mindsets.

And I think that's kind of what happened to him, you know, whether he was on the spectrum or not.

It's interesting that was like gasoline sounds like his special interest or something.

You know.

Yeah, he did have these fixations.

Have these elevators, tractors, dinosaurs, whatever, you know.

I mean, they get fixated on.

Something and then that brain on LSD all the time.

Yeah.

Right, So but he I think he had an auditory.

Uh he was kind of a savant auditorily, which to me that meant that to me, what that meant was kids with autism, I mean they can recite whole movies, so stuff that he would hear, and he wasn't a good reader.

Lynette would have to read stuff for him.

But I think auditorily, I mean, he was as a young person exposed to all kinds of sermons and then scientology, and I mean and in jail music and so I think that so he had all this auditory input that I think he you just regurgitations kind it out right.

Yes, and he would mix it up, you know, mirror whatever the person he was talking to need it probably little snippets.

I think the little snippets of what he'd heard formed his life reality on reality.

He was gifted in that, you know.

And even with music, you know, he didn't read music, you know, it was all auditory.

So I think he had this kind of almost a savant ability to remember things auditorily.

That makes total sense.

What was your relationship with him?

Like he'd be very kind obviously, but then he would suddenly hit you right and like when you weren't expecting it or like can you just describe that dynamic a little bit?

Yeah.

I think that as time went on and he you know, he started having more control and and like a bigger delusion or you know, idea of where we were going or where he wanted us to go as a family, and I just I don't think I was totally on board, which I thank god, I thank god that I wasn't right.

And recently I kind of got reacquainted with Catherine Chaer Gypsy, and she's ten years older than me.

She was kind of tasked with watching out for me, or watching over me for Charlie.

Keeping an eye on you, keeping an eye on me.

Yeah, it was also watching out for you because of Charlie, because she saw that he was mistreating you.

But she said that I would, you know, I would, I would listen that I would lose my focus and I would just get up and wander off and like whatever.

So and I think that really it bothered him, and I wasn't setting a good example, so he would make an example.

And just think about it.

You've got a cult leader, right.

You weren't submissive enough.

She would roll her eyes and kind of say, Charlie, that doesn't make sense.

It was very cool to re connect with somebody that knew me back then who was older.

I mean ten years older.

That's significant, you know.

And she had a much wiser, more worldly view of everything.

Wow, that's so great that you guys got to connect, right, right.

I mean, this has been this has been such an incredible journey since since I wrote the book, and you know, the different interviews, and it's not just regurgitating what I wrote in the book.

I mean, it's like there's been this whole because now I've read and seen more interviews and been in, you know, quite a few documentaries and seeing other people's tape, and so the whole thing has really kind of, you know, evolved into a more mature, deeper understanding of what happened to me and what happened to him.

And you know, it's still kind of hard for me to understand how the murders happened.

Yeah, but you know what's interesting, working with Diane and doing so much research and then looking at the bigger picture of cult behavior, it helped me understand how these things can happen.

And I went into working with Diane with the question of how could this happen?

Because these were troubled young women.

But they weren't what you would think as maybe a throwaway or a young criminal, or you know, they were not They were from mostly from affluent, homes, intelligent, and people need to understand that when you have an unequal power relationship, this kind of brainwashing or ultimate abuse or control can happen in very It comes in many many forms.

Exactly, anyone can be vulnerable, having a vulnerable moment in their life where they find a person or a group that seems to be the answer to their problems and that it really seems like what you needed at that time in your life.

Diane was a family and voila, Diane, Diane, We've been waiting for you, like booms, there's a family, you know, especially that age, I mean, gosh, yeah, fourteen is so young.

You want to belong.

Everybody wants to belong to something, and that's how gangs and isis.

And you know all of these these terrorists, even terrorist groups, you know, they absolutely, yeah, get get sucked in because they want to be part of something bigger than themselves and to feel We all do in some I think in some.

Ways absolutely, I know I do, and yeah, debort to feel special.

Absolutely, I want to feel special.

I want to belong Topically.

Cult leaders may not even start out knowing they are a cult leader, but what happens is with the progression of that adulation from any group of people, it will ultimately lead to having power over others and the mindset ultimately, you know, just like in a domestic violence situation, the people become isolated from the outside world.

They're the only information they're receiving is from the leader and the group, so they're all kind of harvesting the same information and it becomes a reality.

And that's why someone from the outside can look at the mindset and some of the things that Diane and the others were believing at the time, and they were believing it, and to the outside, it's how how could you believe that?

But when you're on the inside, it is reality.

I mean I know that firsthand.

I know you too.

You know, I'm curious about your relationship with the other girls.

How was that In the beginning?

I would say I was the closest really to Lynette Squeaky Squeaky, Yeah, yeah, Lynette and Charlie and I and then Patty.

I wasn't ever really that close to Susan Atkins.

But Patty was like the mother Earth.

I mean, she was like the salt of the earth.

I mean, she was just so down to earth.

So incredibly down to earth.

So I felt close to her.

When Leslie came on the scene, I didn't feel I just didn't have anything in common with her other than Charlie or text, you know, because I never went to high school and so and she was like homecoming queen or a princess or something, you know, just totally I had no clue.

I had no clue what that was all about.

And so to me, she just seemed like, you know, very shallow and aloof and just a silly girl.

I don't know.

I mean, you know, she wasn't down to earth.

You know, she was very flighty, and Sandy was a prima donna to me.

You know, she was a spoiled rich girl and you know, who felt like she'd been abused by her family.

She was kind of manipulative, and she wasn't my best friend.

I mean, I think it's just cool to hear this perspective, because when you hear manson girls, you picture this like monolith of the girls with the crosses, and they are zombies and they're all have the exact same personality.

But no, like everyone was so different from each other.

But I had been you know, I hadn't really been part of that aspect at all.

Oh, you need to understand that what you saw at the trial was very much orchestrated from behind the scenes between Manson Squeaky.

There was a lot of manipulation of the legal system because they had a goal, and that was to get him out.

Right, of course, So there's a whole.

Backstory and a continuation.

By that time, Diane was at Patent State and was being held there for her own safety and for treatment until she would.

Testify, right, And I want to get into that.

I don't mean to jump ahead, but the picture that people have of these zombie like girls, they were true believers at that point in Manson and that he was Man's son and that he was their only saving grace, that this race war was going to happen, and the only person who could save them would be him, and they fully believed it, and they were all boiled to him, right.

And I think some of the proof of that, to me is just how far gone they were in that belief.

Was the fact that when we got arrested for burning a road grader in Death Valley, it didn't have anything to do with the murders.

But Susan Atkins had a warnt out and she got transferred to you know, La County Jail, and it was there that she started telling her roommates about Charlie, right, And I mean did she I think she really thought that the doors of the jail were just going to fall off and they were going to be free to go to the desert with Charlie.

And she was still like proud of that and trying to I think, trying to convince these ab cellmates about the reality.

And then she started, you know, she believed it so much that she started to tell them what her part in these teneous murders.

It's like, why would you do that unless you were.

Totally totally brainwashed.

Without a doubt brainwashed.

And think about it too.

At that time, there were a lot of counter revolutionary groups, and at the time before they people understood what had really happened and why, there were some of the counter revolutionary groups supporting what had happened, thinking that it was a strike against the establishment.

Oh, and they actually felt that the murders were like a revolutionary Yeah, there were horrible collateral damage, but this was something good for the cause.

Oh.

I didn't know that.

Wowun is up and up is down, and you have to consider the times.

I guess I knew that there were lots of domestic bombings for political purposes, so I guess I could see how that would make sense.

But yeah, I had no idea anyone interpreted it that way.

I can't think of the particular group.

But there were, you know, radical groups that came out in favor of what he did.

Now, of course, later they didn't necessarily support him, but at first they thought that this you know, they were attacking the establishment and making a statement, and you know, until they realized that it was very crazy.

Yeah, you.

So back to the girls for a second.

Did you experience any jealousy because you had to share?

I'm calling him Charlie just because that's what the book called him.

You know, when I think of him, I I don't call him Charles Manson, right, you know, he's Charlie.

I remember, though, thinking at some point that I was in love with him and that I wanted him to just take me, yeah off and marry me.

You know, that was in the very early state, you know, very early stages.

But they're really wasn't.

I mean, we were like you know, sister wives for the most part, I mean, and that's what he encouraged, you know.

So that was part of the brainwashing, is that we were to squelch those feelings of jealousy.

That wasn't that wasn't okay.

You know, you need to share and you know, share a like, and he did when you did spend time with just him, he did make you feel like you were you know, you were the special one.

So and that was part of his training, and he pulled it off for the most part.

How did you get the nickname Snake?

I actually was responsible probably for giving myself that thing.

Not that I wanted that nickname, but I had been fasting and because Charlie.

That was one of Charlie's things too, is that we didn't really need food, so you know, and we certainly didn't want to get fat.

And so I had been on like a lemon and honey fast forbably twenty days.

Holy moly.

I didn't realize it was that long.

Yeah, And anyway, and it was a hot summer day at the top of you know, Topanga Canyon and.

Talk about hallucinating.

Ill and I wasn't really even hallucinating.

I just you know, I'm a kid and I just imagined what it would be like slithering through the tall cool grass as a snake, and so I just recat I mean, it's just, you know, it wasn't even like something I physically saw.

It was just something that I got in the skin of the snake and what that would be like.

And I was wanting that, you know, imagery to the girls in the kitchen into one of the places that we lived in Topanga Canyon and there from then on, I was Snake.

Charlie gave everybody nicknames, so I just didn't have one yet, right.

Yeah, take away your original identity.

But you know what's interesting, But I just found this out a couple of years ago, is that in the Chinese zodiac, I was born in the year of the Snake.

Come on, that's crazy.

Three, very good.

It's humbling to have that nickname snake.

Yeah.

So you were all dumpster diving, some people were stealing cars.

You're I mean, I guess you sort of described every day.

It's just everyday life is like getting the things done that you need to get done.

How did you feel when the race work talk stuff began.

Did you feel uncomfortable with that at all?

Like, what was that like, yeah, it was you know, it was a little disconcerting.

I grew up in Minnesota and my father and mom had you know, African American friends that would come over for dinner and they were just you know, I didn't have but in Los Angeles, you know, and then the Black Panthers and then you know, and Charlie would talk about it, and he'd been hearing about it, you know, since he was a little guy in reform school and then prison, so this was like, oh, insider information kind of thing.

In the context of the times.

It sort of overlapped the peaceful demonstrations with Martin Luther King and he was assassinated in nineteen sixty eight, so you know, it was all during that time that at the same time, there was this undercurrent of activists who were the Black Panthers, who were saying, no, let's not do this peacefully, let's do you know, let's do this, let's have a revolution, and so it all was overlapping.

So I think the rhetoric was supporting his upside down, thinking that this was going to happen and us.

Another thing that you have to consider is that he would take pieces of information from many different sources and right down the street literally from I mean we drove there when we did our tour, right down from Spawn Ranch was right.

What is it like a Fountain of the World world And they're another cult, yes, and their leader he espoused a race war and all of his followers believed in that race war.

And so again you've got a mishmash christ Naventa, thank you.

That was gonna bother me all night, Christianava.

This is another cult leader that like everybody kind of knows.

Or it's well, he didn't.

He was murdered or bombed, but the actual cult housing in the buildings are still there.

I bet a remnant of them still are part of that cult.

And they went there.

Diane went there with Yeah, we went.

We tried to recruit them, or we wanted them to recruit us.

I don't know, we want we tried to combine forces with them.

Oh.

Interesting, that could have made it way worse.

Yeah.

Yes, they didn't like Charlie.

No.

Oh, they were like opposing cult leaders exactly.

Well, and their cult leader was dead but they were still loyal to him.

Oh, so they were dead, and Charlie was like, let me go get these people who need a new leader.

Ahh, making over an ant hill or something.

Fas fascinating, And we will leave it there for now.

Stay tuned for next week.

There is so much more to get into, Megan.

Yes, say you're fourteen, Los Angeles sixties, pretty unstable childhood, lots of moving around, lots of communes, lots of predatory men coming after you.

What do you think would you?

Oh?

Absolutely would you meet up with Charlie?

Absolutely?

Absolutely?

Yeah, yeah, go on, I mean how I mean, just in.

Pure survival mode.

She needed someplace to go and I would have too.

And I think he from what I've read and what he sounds like, he can be very seductive in making you feel like there's a bigger purpose.

And that's very compelling for my personal brain.

So I totally understand your personal brain.

My personal brain, my public brain.

Totally different story.

I agree, absolutely, Even just the moment that she described when she shows up to this house and they all just know who she is and they know her name and they welcome her with open arms after being kicked out of this other place.

I mean, even at age thirty three, my current age, that would be very alluring to me.

Yeah, But imagine at fourteen.

Oh my god.

The age that we've talked about this in the past, fourteen is the age that, or maybe thirteen, but that I prayed to Satan for friends because God hadn't delivered me, really, you know, and.

You believed in God, so that was a like real, right.

I was desperate, so imagine and I had great parents who were you know, like loving parents, and I can't even imagine, like I can't imagine not joining the group at that time.

Same, yeah, and of course, like it's all about this slow descent, right, his slow descent into madness, and by that point, that's your life, that's your community.

So I urged people to consider, you know, obviously, some horrific murders happened.

It's easy to think we could never do that because it's so horrible, but I urge folks to consider if they were in that same situation, you know, and on all kinds of LSD, you might be susceptible.

Do you think that if he hadn't gone so far down with drugs there would have been a totally different outcome.

I don't know, because it seems like there was genuine mental illness an instability there already, like he'd had a track record of committing crimes his whole life, even in and out of jail, his whole life, So it doesn't seem like he was on the straight and arrow other than drugs, you know what I mean?

Right, It seems like classic sociopath stuff like the unpredictable violent behavior.

Clearly had a conscience, hadn't been much of a factor for him.

So yea, So maybe it wouldn't have gotten to that particular point.

But you know, one always wonders if the music career had gone well, you know.

Isn't Andrew Keegan?

Doesn't he have a cult in Venice?

I don't know if it's a cold or if it's a religion.

I think he's like a pastor.

Oh, people call it a could.

I don't know if it's a cold or if it's just like an independent religion.

But we should have him on and find out.

I've randomly spent a lovely afternoon with Andrew Keegan because I ran into him on the beach, didn't know who he was, and he had a parrot and a pug and a Pomeranian.

I'm sorry, does he only have pets that start with pee?

A parent pug and a Pomeranian.

Walk into a part.

What is that?

But yeah, you know it's it's some crazy ship.

So yeah, yeah, wow parrot, just have a parrot.

All right, y'all come back next week and hear the rest of the story.

Yes, please do.

I can't wait for y'all to hear the end of the story.

And for now, remember to follow your gut, watch out for red flags, and never ever trus me me