Trust me?

Do you trust me?

Right?

Ever lead you astrayed?

Trust?

This is the truth, the only truth.

If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to trust me.

The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two advocates of support groups who've actually experienced it.

I'm Lola Blong and I am Megan Elizabeth.

Yes you are, Yes I am.

Today's Part two with our guests Mike and Abby Prussach, former members of Megan's cult, the Two y twos also known as The Truth also known as The Way, and Mike and Abby are also moderators of the former two by two Facebook group.

So last week we talked to them about their upbringings in the secretive Christian sect and how they met.

This week, we're going to talk to them about what led them to start the support group for ex members and the explosive revelation about a church leader's sexual abuse, and just to clarify, this is not my cult.

The former former I was a member.

Yes, born men, now you started it?

Okay.

We'll dig into more of the bi investigation of the widespread sexual abuse, the scope of the group's internal cover ups, and how they moved perpetrators around instead of contacting the authorities and the number of people who've been leaving.

As a result.

Before we jump in with them, Megan, I would love to know your cultiest thing of the Wei.

Well.

I have been reading about tech bros a lot lately, as one does, as one does, and the new fad, and it's probably not new.

The new talk of the town is an old fad.

That is tech bros Are getting facelifts.

The quote is that you should never hire someone over thirty too techow.

So, I mean, the advance.

Of facelifts are probably getting so good because of these men needing to look like they're thirty, and sometimes they actually do.

Some of the work is pretty incredible.

I mean we've seen face faces have gotten really good.

They've gotten incredibly used to be kind of a kind of a what is the word that I want you would be cursed to looking weird forever.

Yeah, they're that quinde of like you can either look old or weird.

Yeah, now you can look pretty young.

And Jenner's face a little amazing.

Yeah, I've seen it without the filter and it is a bit different, but it's still I mean, let's not name some of the younger actresses that have recently and they look great.

They look and bully, I understand the instincts same.

So but you know, so we're not facelifts shaming.

I'm not gonna name anybody, but it is weird for men or it's less common.

Yeah, it's less common.

Thank you.

Did I say it was weird?

Yes?

Yeah, that was wrong with me.

It's less common for you know, I think of like tech guys like Bill Gates are like freaking nerds, like nerds, yeah yeah, and and not getting face lifts.

I mean it is.

It's interesting how this area that was traditionally a nerd zone, where it was like kind of the whole thing was that you weren't cool y has kind of evolved into this like we're the hot guys, the ridge guys, and having to do a lot of plastic surgery to maintain that.

The and like we talked about on the in Cell episode with tem Squirrel, you know, the things that this group of people in particular are like wemen, like a big jaw and then like suddenly there's jaw surgeries.

Well, and with Arabella Sicardi too, we like it is actually interesting to me because one of the things we talked about with them in that episode was how typically with women, the anti aging emphasis is on the external appearance, and with men it's more on life extension than living forever.

So it's interesting to hear that this faction of men are actually now also focusing on the external appearance.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm looking at a tech bro right here.

His face, Louff looks great.

I know, it sucks, It sucks.

I don't want us to feel like that looks great, you know what I mean?

Yeah, I know I wish it looked worse.

But he looks incredible, really good.

I'm sure he's just cash, just cash, and in the checks.

I mean, it's a testament to agism, still seeing very much rampant in our society.

But I am.

I am really digging deeper into those cults of the tech bro and it's a fascinating world.

Yeah.

I think as the years go on, we're going to have a lot more information to look back on and a lot of Yeah, you know, I think it's just going to be a very very interesting conversation.

Definitely.

Can I shamelessly self promo for a second, sure, you guys, I made a music video about aging.

Have we talked about this on here at all?

I think so it's the woman dancing, yes, yeah, did we talk about it?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, But go on, Okay, I don't remember talking about it, okay, because I have been frustrated with this trope and horror movies, because I'm a horror filmmaker, but I'm also a music hers.

She got shut up, Lola, But I have been corustrated with this trope of like the old woman is like scary as she's a monster because she has like low hanging boobs and wrinkles on her face, and it's like such a comment.

It's called whatever.

It's a subgenre called hag's ploitation is the trope.

But I did make a music video starring an older dancer who we aged up to look even older, and the whole video is her defying this expectation that she will be scary simply because she looks old.

Anyway, I was just trying to interrogate this idea that like aging is inherently scary or something to be afraid of, and it's called Dear Sarah, if anyone's interested.

That is my spiel on aging.

But of course, as I say this, I am actively putting retinol on my face every now and getting, you know, like, yeah.

You suggested a face feel to me.

That almost murdered me.

I'm going to do more.

Oh man, that was the worst in my life.

That was the worst day.

What about you?

What's your cultist thing?

Uh So?

I found an article that two of our previous guests are quoted in, and it is a huff Post article called The One Thing.

All though this is a misleading title because it's multiple things.

The one thing called experts want you to do when talking to your MAGA relatives.

Oh and see Passen is of course the main interview, and as well as Danielle and mastienek Young and I feel like I'm saying her name wrong but hopefully not so.

First thing it says is ask a good question.

This is something we have.

We've talked about all of this, but sometimes it's good to just have a refresher because there's so much division and polarization right now in family, Yennie, You've got to go back to the fundamentals.

Yeah, So ask a good question instead of telling them why they're wrong, Ask why they believe what they believe.

Get curious, ask from a place of kindness and empathy, like, that's interesting, what's important to you about that?

What do you think of that?

So are you saying that you believe in that?

Because of X?

The curiosity?

And also it can be helpful for people to have to really think about why they believe what they believe, because so often we don't think about why we believe what we believe.

We just sort of assume we believe it.

So when you have to say it in your own words, that also can be like a challenge, like to question whether or not that's yeah, understand.

And on the flip side, like, I'm sure every single person alive believes something untrue.

So maybe a family member asks you a question and you can explore your own beliefs.

From a gentle place.

And like I have I have a you know, we all know I'm quite left, but I have conservative family members most I would say conservative family members outside of my immediate family, and we are able to talk about what we believe because we know that we love each other and we're coming from a place of wanting to know.

But the only reason why I can tell them what I believe is because they are showing me curiosity and vice versa, like if it's coming when it comes from that attacking place, it just like it just goes nowhere and then we just get angry.

Does it ever change your views or like move you in any sort of way.

Not necessarily, because I generally am the things I believe I read a lot about, but I will say like it gives me a lot more empathy for why people believe what they believe and what the perspective that they're coming from.

And I find over and over again that we share so many of the same core beliefs and values, but we are being fed really really different information around it.

And I have come to middle ground with family members certainly, although of course there are some issues that are just like too spicy and we are not able to get there.

But it depends on it depends on I'm talking to.

Yeah.

The article also says come prepared with your own gentle rebuttal.

This one's hard because I really think that the immediate rebuttal can be tricky.

That was a Daniella recommendation.

She suggested some ways you can respond, saying, can I share why I'm concerned?

Would you be open to reading a source I trust in my experience, people aren't super responsive still when it's immediate when you're because it still feels like you're trying to debunk them.

I haven't really encountered that being effective, but in certain cases when the person is curious, yeah, definitely.

And then it says no, your own triggers and theirs, so that you're not just evolving into conflict.

And then it says, be prepared to safely disengage.

I love you too much to argue with you about this.

I've learned that these that's cute.

Yeah, I've learned that these conversations don't feel good or helpful to me, you know.

I want to focus on connecting with you.

And then, of course the final one, which we talk about all the time.

Keep a tether to your previous relationship, keep them in your life even when it's a challenge.

Yep, unless they're unless they are abusing you or or just you know, being outwardly hateful or something.

Yeah.

And I will say that the two by twos have a nice little system go going on that really de escalates things like this, because we have so many board games because we didn't grow up with television, so like we just go straight.

To a game like if their conflict is rising, you just play games.

Yeah, that's kind of cool, or like kind yeah what games?

You know, there's a game that we're really obsessed with, to the point that one of my cousins has like a headlamp with a light on it because it's like a color game where you try to explain a color and everybody puts it.

I don't know what this game is called, but everyone puts a headlamp on.

Everyone doesn't put a head lamp on, just headlamp on.

Just my cousin who is very very competitive about this game.

Okay, But but all the normal games that one would go to is what we jump.

To, Oh like Monopoly, Yeah, Taboo?

Yeah, I love Taboo.

Best game.

There's one called God what is it called.

We go to it a lot, but you know, as something that you can kind of do a.

Group nope, where you can disengage, yeah, instead of instead of devolving into conflict.

God, it's so hard.

Yeah.

And I'm going home for the holidays.

Family is still in the system that we're discussing today, So I totally understand how holiday stuff can be awkward.

It truly can.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I still want to go because I love my family and it's like a very complex little thing.

So yeah, it's so tough.

I'm just thinking back to something that happened with me this summer where I got I got really I was struggling to keep mich cool.

It just happened.

It's going to happen, yep, and it's going to happen in the other direction too.

They also feel, yeah, yeah, it's it's wild, but it's it's worth keeping the communication lines open and education and curiosity and compassion.

Look at those three.

See that I just pulled out my butthole.

Okay, that you pulled out of your bee three seas from your three seas from my bee.

It's a butthole.

That's that's trademark, actually, guys.

Yeah, and we'll keep reminding y'all every year before the holidays, Yes we will.

So do not explode with your family over politics or religion.

Yeah, but anyway, today's guests, Mike and Abby are absolutely incredible.

They are a great example of staying connected to people and keeping that line of dialogue open and what it can bring, which is an amazing community that's helped so many to bitoes.

I really appreciate them taking the time and the information that they have so painstake in me collected and share.

And we do talk in this episode about sexual abuse and sexual misconducts, So take care listening.

Shall we talk to them?

Let's do it.

So you end up leaving the church, what leads you to start this Facebook group that you run?

So Kyle and Cary, we had been friends with them throughout all this whole period, So we left in twenty ten.

They left like around the pandemic, so around twenty twenty one, and where they were one of the friendships that actually lasted, you know, despite us not being in the church for that long, and you know, around twenty twenty it kind of broke for them and they decided to leave.

And it was really kind of a I think they realized just how lonely it was leaving that community, and so they asked us if we wanted to start a support group on Facebook, and we said, yep, let's do it.

So in twenty twenty two January, I think we started that group together and yeah, it grew at a moderate pace at that point, and by twenty twenty three March of twenty twenty three, it was up to about nine hundred members, which is probably about the point that things are gonna Well, we've already talked to Colin Cary about all of that, so you can.

Give us a refresher.

Yeah, yeah, please.

So in March or twenty twenty three, allegations came to light about Dean Brewer, who was an overseer in organ and we got our hands on an internal letter that was describing his abuse and put it online and all hell broke loose.

Of note is that he had passed away almost a year before.

And when we say abuse, remind us what we're talking about.

So we're talking about child sexual abuse and sexual assault on adult women.

And yeah, so it's really hard to describe how that broke the damn, but it just did.

Like even on that first post of that letter, there were people disclosing their abuse in the comments already, and it just kept on coming.

Just hundreds and hundreds of survivors started telling their stories, and you know, sometimes it was in the comments, it was Facebook posts, it was just people really just I think there was an opportunity for the truth to come out, and everybody really really took it and ran with it.

So there's been just so much has happened since then.

I mean, I remember when you first were like, there's a Facebook group for two by two.

It is crazy how much has happened since then.

What has come to light maybe the nut shell version and then we can kind of talk about more recent developments, if that makes sense.

Yeah, So what has come to light is literally over a thousand perpetrators of sexual abuse and whether it be child sexual abuse or a sexual assault on adults.

And these are just cases that have been disclosed to various places in the community.

And this is in a church that, prior to COVID was around seventy five thousand based on good estimates.

Obviously, we don't have any solid information about the numbers in the church because they don't publish them.

They don't I don't even know if they keep them.

And so yeah, over one thousand perpetrators is quite a significant percentage.

And this is happening like in people's homes.

These are people of authority and there's just like a power dynamic and also like they're in the family space, right.

Yeah, those allegations are based on our data.

Between thirty five and forty percent are minister's workers.

And then the remaining are elders just members.

Okay, Yeah, so it kind of spans across all those demographics, and.

For most of those cases, somebody knew and didn't do anything.

So the percentage of abusers in a population, you know, you usually kind of weed them out as you find out, and they never did.

So the percentage of abusers in the population just kind of seems like it just grew and prospered and they were just typically moved to different areas, or the survivor was just kind of isolated and they left, or they were told not to say anything, or they were revictimized in a way that made them feel unsafe say anything.

But then when you feel a nice the world, they stay in the church and it's just a horrible mess.

Yeah, victims were told to forgive, you know, weaponized forgiveness, and then at the same time, it's like there was no forgiveness if you cut your bangs or war pants as a woman, right, So it just this very ripe place for abuse is fostered.

I mean, you couldn't.

It's almost like it was purposefully manicured that way.

Yeah, having the minister is staying in the homes, even in some cases sleeping in the same rooms as the kids when they would stay.

At home, Especially in previous generations, that was a lot more common.

Yeah, it's terrifying.

And so let's say an incident happens and it's reported to someone.

Yeah, let's say like one of the workers does something to somebody and the elder or their parents bring it to an elder or an overseer.

I think usually you guys would know more than me.

But it's kind of a conversation of like, Okay, we talked to them, let's move on to the forgiveness process, and if it's.

Particularly bad, we're going to move them to.

A new area where no one knows that this happened at all, and they'll just start staying in new kids' houses.

Is that a good paraphrase?

Yeah?

Yeah, I'm trying to think of, like how many were actually reported to the authorities, and I can maybe find like a handful of instances where where an overseer found out about abuse and actually reported it.

Yeah, that's that's not a thing really.

Yeah.

In fact, I mean they even put out communications that told people not to and it told they told people to.

What was it they needed to think?

They said to it.

If you find out about abuse, tell a a therapist, so that then the onus is on the therapist to report, not on you the worker to have to report.

Right, but the therapist doesn't have enough info to do anything about it anyway.

And it was only if you absolutely have to, So it was literally, don't report it unless you really have to, then maybe tell somebody else and just like then you can wipe your hands and and if they feel obligated to report it, they will without very much information.

And I'm assuming the thinking is similar to what it often is in situations like this, where they don't want a bad reputation.

Is that kind of.

Well, they don't want any reputation.

They don't want They didn't want to be known for a church that has the one and only way to heaven.

It's really strange how much they didn't want to be known.

They they want everything to stay secret.

They don't want any information to get into the wrong hands.

You know, they told people to at times, they told people to burn or shred the lists the worker lists after they're done with that year.

Never really explained why, but just in case they get in the wrong hands, or to not to destroy your notes after you're done with them, that type of thing.

They really didn't want to be known as an entity.

Right, So that there was definitely like the preservation of the church, the church's image, at least for the people that were in the church, right.

But also they really believe that if people were cast out of meetings, were told not to attend, that they were going to be sending them to hell.

And so when you literally feel like you are so you know, say an overseers in that position of authority, he literally believes that if he tells this person they can't go to meeting anymore, that that's the equivalent of sending them to hell, because meeting attendance is required for salvation in their eyes.

Wow, I didn't know that.

That's fascinating.

But at the same token, I do know people who have been asked to not attend meetings or asked not to speak at meetings.

That's another thing.

We're the ones who speak at meetings.

It's the whole thing because they addressed too flamboyantly.

So there is a willingness to lose a person who doesn't look the part, but there's no willingness to lose a person who might be doing crazy things, but they're kind of like fitting the part right well.

And the idea is that you can repent from things that you've done in the past, but if you're willfully participating now, then you're not repenting.

Right.

So if you're wearing pants to meeting right now, that's a current choice, and if you were to stop doing that, you could stay in meetings, right.

And so for somebody who has hurt a person, it's in the past, right And if they say all, I've repented and the workers have decided to accept that, like, it's not the same thing as choosing to participate in gay relationships, you know what I mean.

That's their justification is that you are continuing to choose it and act on.

That it's a past transgression.

Yeah, And of course, as we've found out, they're repentant.

I'm putting it in quotation marks, but continue to do it.

It's just the secret.

So it isn't earrings that a woman is wearing an our head that we're not allowed to do.

It's a secret that they're able to get away with.

Are there any numbers on like how many people were just kind of moved and then perpetrated again in the new area.

We have data that probably could could be compiled about that, but I don't have the numbers readily available.

I would say it's definitely in the dozens, if not higher, of ones that were definitely moved from place to place after their allegations were known.

What's happening right now, because aren't there haven't there been like a ton of ongoing authority investigation stuff?

Yeah?

So in what was it?

At Thanksgiving twenty twenty three, we were at Kyle and Carry's house for Thanksgiving and Cary got a call from a random number and it turned out it was the FBI trying to, you know, dig up a little bit more information.

They already had quite a bit of information by that point.

I think their investigation has started in the summer of twenty twenty three, and then in February twenty four they formally publicly announced their investigation and they put up a website to track tips and go from there.

The FBI, the FBI did, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, they called Cary.

When Cary got back on the phone with them, she said, actually, we're here with Mike and abb and he says, oh yeah, I'm familiar with with all of you.

Oh wow, oh yeah, yeah, are there specific people that have been prosecuted or are indicted or anything.

Nothing from the FBI has happened at all yet, and you know, they're very tight lipped.

They don't share with us like what their plan is or what's going on.

We just we give them information sometimes for things that we think are important, and they say, okay, thanks, that's about it.

That's how they are with everyone.

Yeah, that's that's their standard.

We're we're estimating it's going to be years probably before anything actually happens.

They're building a case, and we're really hopeful that the current administration stuff doesn't mess with anything going on with that investigation.

But time will tell.

Yeah, lots of cuts too, right.

I know that they've done like thousands of interviews.

I think it's thousands.

There was a time when tons of people were getting interviewed and that seems to have slowed down.

So it's impossible to know where it all is.

And we certainly have some cases where we're like this one would be good to prosecute.

It's all over the place.

It's egregious.

There's lots of people who want to, you know, talk, and it doesn't seem like anything's happening, and I think that's frustrating for a lot of people.

But we also know that this goes really slowly, so they're not going to probably pick off one person at a time.

You know, that kind of gives everybody else the idea that they need to you know, that it's serious and maybe they should flee.

So it's possible that they're building a case that will come together very quickly at the end, you know that we'll see results very quickly, but I don't, I don't know.

Wow, Outside of the FBI, there's there's definitely other cases happening across the world, even but certainly in the United States and Canada is ones that we kind of know the most about, and those are you know, within their whatever jurisdiction they're in.

But our our our community is definitely getting a lesson in just how badly the justice system handles sexual abuse cases.

So, you know, there's there's been a few cases where they they got off, they didn't get any punishment, and it's not because those things didn't happen.

It's because it's really hard to prove that something happened in a room with closed doors where there's only two people that know what happened.

Yeah, that's so, that's so hard.

Yeah, and most of these cases are now outside of the Statute of Limitations because the church blocked the process for you know, people to report, because the church had this influence to cover things up and convince people not to report, which is a form of cover up.

They prevented them from being able to do anything within their statute of limitations.

So now the vast majority of these reports aren't actionable legally anyway.

Right, Damn.

I was just going to say, I think, isn't like one of the most prolific sex offenders.

Isn't his name Robert And wasn't isn't he an Oregon and was a worker or Seattle or something like that, Coryfield.

Yeah, there is Robert Corfield.

He was He was in Montana, and he was one that was transferred from Canada to Montana because of what he've been doing.

And we don't really know how prolific he was, necessarily we have only heard of a couple, I think a couple known survivors.

But he's notorious.

He's notorious, Okay, I mean I just know that there was one that was, like I read it in a newspaper that they were like, he's one of the most prolific in the state.

And I was like, okay, was.

It in Alaska.

Oh, I'm from Washington too, so that's oh shoot, what's his.

Name, Richard Schouber?

Thank you, That's what I'm thinking about, Richard Schroueber.

And he casually said a quote I think it was him, perhaps it was Robert.

Yes, that was like.

Most of these children didn't even know I was doing it.

Yeah, it's crazy that he said that to the media.

Yeah, like what that is?

It's insane.

And the same with Robert Corfield.

He also gave he talked to the BBC and was basically like, yeah, I did this stuff.

They didn't.

We can't do anything about it.

Statute of limitations adel.

But they feel they feel invincible because they've been treated that way their whole lives.

They don't live a normal human life, and.

You can see that in the letters that they released, where you were like, oh my god, you've never been held accountable for a single thing.

This religion has never been made public obviously because you just send the craziest shit I've ever read in my life, and now it's being all released and they're realizing it.

But these are people have never been held.

I'm laughing because I start breaking things.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's another one that's worth mentioning.

An extremely prolific abuser that he has a court case actually coming up in December, and he's had a trial before.

He was found guilty in early twenty twenty three, and he was given a ten year deferred sentence, which means that he doesn't spend a day in jail unless he reoffends in the next ten years, and then he gets ten years.

I think that was the deal.

And turns out that the police at actually ghosted a previous report that is now in like going through the courts, and so he has a trial coming up in December.

This is Hodgy Holgerson, and I think it's really important to get his name out there because the access that he has had to children is unfathomable.

I mean, he's been involved with four h clubs and he's been around the entire country and so we're really one that's one that really gives us gives us some pain.

Well, especially because we personally have at least twelve survivors that have told their story to us, and if there's twelve.

How many more are there out there?

Yeah, the way that he's done a lot of this, well, some of it has been very very severe, very severe abuse towards very young children, and a lot of it is just like this Richard Chober type of thing where you just get an opportunity here and there to do something small that like people might even see and go, he want to do that right in front of me.

So that can't be intentional, right, and so yeah, one of those extremely prolific classic pedophiles.

Oh my god, we asked this, But it's been in a while, so I'm curious, like, have more people started leaving since this has come out?

Or is everyone digging their heels in what's where's that all landing?

I think it's it varies by region or in an area, but yes, people are pouring out of the church right now.

So our group has about six thousand people right now, and we've been tracking people who have left our Facebook group.

Yes, we're tracking people on the admin side who have left the church since March of twenty twenty three, and we're at about thirteen hundred, so we're almost like a fifth of our group is comprised of people who have left just in the last two years.

Wow.

And our Facebook group is just one of many platforms out there for x two x two members right now.

So you know, I think a very conservative estimate is that ten thousand have left, and it's most likely more than that.

Well, yeah, because each of those people in our group that has left has a family typically right right, there are some places in which they've had to consolidate meetings and consolidate fields.

There's been a huge loss of workers due to both allegations and workers leaving on principle.

So yeah, there are big downsizing pains going on in the church right now, and they like to pretend that it's not painful, but when you listen to their sermons right now at conventions, you can tell it's it's living rent free in their heads at all times.

Right now, what do you guys think the future of the churches?

Do you think it'll be able to survive this, because it's not like they be recruiting really.

Yeah, I think I think they'll survive for at least a few more generations just because you know, but it's going to it's going to dwindle very very quickly.

I don't know.

How you know.

I've talked to my brother about this, and this is, you know, one of the reasons that he that he left the ministry is how do you evangelize and try to bring people into a church when they can find out all this information about it on the internet.

You would have to swindle them into joining the church at this point, and.

On a moral basis, when you're not sure that they're going to be safe there.

Right I think that the future of the church might also, like there are a lot of factors that could influence just how quickly it dwindles.

So right now, the average agent the church is pretty darn high.

There's a lot of old people, and there's not so many young people.

And I think that also as a society, our young people are moving away from fundamentalist religions, and so we know that a lot of the young people that are in the two y two's right now will eventually not be there.

And so there, I think it's going to dwindle very quickly for a while.

But I also think that things like a more severe than expected response by the FBI, a more sweeping response than we expect, could definitely influence people feeling even legally safe in that environment, Like we have heard of FBI agents saying that, like, I would not be anywhere near this group right now if I were you.

But people have always felt safe and invincible from the world, you know.

There, so there are a lot of people that are staying and doubling down.

Something that is kind of worth mentioning is In April twenty twenty five, we were able to release notes taking from an overseer meeting that.

God my gosh, oh my gosh.

Yes, So that was a really interesting look into what's going through their minds.

And you know this this was a zoom call amongst overseers across the world, and it was really a good old boys club when they were just talking amongst themselves.

But it's interesting because they did talk a lot in this meeting about what outsiders were saying about them, and so it's definitely top of mind, you know.

Of course, they talked about it in a way of like, well, this is what they say about us, that's not true, even though it literally was true, you know, And so there was just all kinds of things, you know, they talked about the people that are leaving.

They mentioned that they were like the garbage that needed to be taken out anyway, and things like that.

Yeah, they laughed about things like people saying that instead of jetting all these workers all over the world, maybe they should spend that money right now in Survivors.

They all chuckled about that.

Yeah, what a funny joke.

Yeah, hilarious.

And at the beginning of this meeting, they literally were talking about how to get a perpetrator back in the meeting.

Wow.

And this meeting was kind of can can you tell a little bit about how we have this transcript?

I mean, I know we don't know who did it, but how did that bach happen?

Yeah?

So someone was able to call in to the meeting and they were unsure of the phone number, and everybody checked their address book and it wasn't there.

So this person eventually was able to get in by claiming to be John.

And there are some John's high up in leadership, and that's apparently all they needed to let this person in to their good old boys club was It's.

John, a zoom name that said John.

Yeah, so this person just recorded it.

Wow, and a little inside look at what these people are talking about, and it is dire.

And there was a lawsuit or legal action threatened vaguely in the direction.

They didn't even send it to us.

They sent it to Wings, which is a website that posted it from us, even though our name was on the notes.

They don't even know who belongs to who, but they threatened wings or they implied that there could be legal action, but they don't know who the person is who got the notes, And instead of removing it like they had requested, Wings instead kept the notes up there and put the threat letter up there.

So they really took the full send option, and I loved that.

Is there anything I mean, I want to know if there's anything else current that members AX members should be aware of, and then just any advice that you have with people who are contemplating leaving or are on the fence a little bit.

Oh man, it's hard right now because a lot of people that are staying have kind of they've kind of justified where they sit, and I mean, leaving at this point is also kind of hard to because you didn't leave when all the terrible stuff came out.

So I think they're kind of hitting a line there where there's what is that word, they've got some sunk cost, you know.

Yeah, So that's hard.

I mean we've even been contacted by by like teenagers who are like, I don't want to be in this, but I'm forced to go.

And you have to be really delicate.

I'm the one that talks to them if needed, you know, just to just to be extra careful.

But really it's just hang in there.

You know.

We can't encourage them to We can't really give them a lot of advice except just moral support.

And that's hard.

Yeah.

The kids.

The kids are definitely a hard, hard one to to navigate, and they don't really have a choice, Like, you know, what choice do you have when if you leave you might be kicked out of the house by your parents.

It's there's definitely precedent for that.

For the adults that are thinking about leaving, it's a it's a really hard thing because you you potentially lose your family, You undoubtedly lose some segment of your friends.

I think the only kind of encouragement that I would give to two people who are in that position who are thinking about leaving, is there's a massive community out here for you now.

And so whether it's our group or or there's a ton of other groups out there now that are that are all set up for, you know, supporting people as they as they leave this church, and so yeah, there's definitely people here that are have gone through it all and can can support you.

Yeah, I would just encourage them to talk to somebody, talk to somebody who who left and listened.

Sincerely, it's not as scary as they make it out to be.

In fact, people leave and they go, oh, this is nothing like they said it was, right.

I was far less safe in that than I feel now.

I And for people who leave and continue to and change their religious beliefs but continue to stay in some form of Christianity, they all say I left and it got better, like my faith was so much more real afterward.

And that makes sense because you're no longer building your faith in the church.

You're all of a sudden starting to build your faith in your actual religion.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just not as scary as they make it out to be.

But you can't believe that until you step into it.

I cannot thank y'all enough for not only coming on the show, but for creating the space.

I'm going to cry.

I don't know where I would be without the group, So I'm just so grateful.

Thanks Megan, thanks.

And thank you guys for coming on.

What's the name of the Facebook group?

So the Facebook group is called the X two y two Support Group.

It's currently open just to ex members or people who are in the process of leaving, but we don't just generally allow the general public to jump in.

We have a public Facebook page that we have used for sharing all the updates and perpetrator allegations and things like that.

That's two y two Church updates on Facebook.

Cool.

Thank you both, and thanks for all the work that you've been doing.

Have we missed anything or are we.

Mike, did you mention the TikTok?

Yeah, so we're on TikTok making x two by two content.

It's at our two x two story.

And we haven't done done a lot recently.

We kind of took a break over the summer, but there's a lot of content before that and we will eventually get some more.

But up, well, thank you all so much, and I'll be talking to you on the internet soon.

Yeah.

Thanks, thank you very much for having us.

Thank you so much to Mike and Abby for coming on.

Indeed, it's good and also a little depressing to get an update on where things are at with that case, because obviously we want justice to move a little bit faster.

Is there anything you would like to add?

Yeah, come join us on the X two by two Facebook group if you are a former two by two or Wings for Truth if you're just interested in learning more information, if you need some support, those are some places to come find it.

And Mike and Abby you started at TikTok that I'm just started following, and I am curious to see how things keep unfolding.

Indeed, thank you so much for listening to another episode of Trust Me.

We have some big news.

There is now merch available, brand new merch.

That's right, It's exactly right.

You can visit www dot exactly rightstore dot com in order by December fourteenth, Oh my god, Christmas delivery.

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Dosas as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out for rad flax, and never ever trust me.

Bye, goodbye.

This has been an exactly Right production hosted by me Lola Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth our Senior producer is ge Holly.

This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

Our associate produce is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Kottner.

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Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

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