We get down there, we're like, hey, you know, back up to be restrained, we're going to take you to your holding cell.

He just like rips his shit off and is just like.

I'm like I remember my training.

I'm like, step one, step two, step three, step right.

I'm like I got the steps Door opens up.

I go running in, smack the guy Boom, drive him into the cinder block wall in the back.

I'm holding him, look over and I see a toilet.

Screw it.

I dropped down double leg right, pick this dude up, turn him over and just spike his head in the toilet these toilets are steel and his forehead hits like right into the edge of the toilet and just goes and splits open.

Oh no, blood just goes, knocks him out cold and I'm like, oh, this isn't going according to plan.

Like this is bad, I can't.

Austin.

I'm excited for this one.

It's going to be good.

I wanted to have this conversation because I love everything corrections, anything prison related, because there's so many.

There's such a controversial side to it.

I feel like when you get into the bowels of the depths of the facilities, how they're run, obviously I feel correctional officers have one of the shittiest jobs, just because of who you're dealing with, how you're dealing with it and the corruption that happens inside.

And you did a long time you did.

You did several years in in the maximum security, then you did an emergency response team, so you've got to experience a little bit of everything inside of the prison life yeah, which I personally love these stories.

They just they're.

They blow my mind every time.

I've had, um a good buddy of mine, now victor on.

He did 10 years here in the prison system, in and out all kinds of gang related, and listening to him talk from an inmate side of things like just opened up my mind, my my thought on what's actually happening, how these guys are treated, and obviously you're no longer with it, so, which I love, because there's no holding back.

Yeah yeah, and I've had time to like look back and say, holy crap, that that was crazy.

You know like now the dust has settled, at the time I was like this is just life, I do this every day, it's no big deal.

And now I'm like Whoa, we had to do what.

So, before we get started, obviously we're going to be sending you home with the most amazing sourdough from the kids, which is from the Sour Bee.

These are fresh out of the oven, so I know you're going home with the white chocolate raspberry.

Then I have a really awesome company.

What I try to do here on the podcast, no matter how big or small we are, I want to give veteran law enforcement first responders a chance, if they have small businesses, to send us gear or anything like that.

So this is from Yup Clothing.

They're a veteran owned company, um, and they just come out with cool phrases and sayings and so, yeah, I, I like to shout out dudes that are, uh, that are out there just trying to make it, and so I feel if more platforms did this, we would help a lot more smaller businesses grow and get their name out there.

So something we like to do is send you home with some swag and some bread.

So well, I don't have much for you, but back in the day we did a limited run of the IDOC emergency response team challenge coins.

And so I've had that one for, I don't know, almost 20 years now.

You don't have to give this up dude 15, 15 years.

Yeah 15 years, and so no, I have one more, and so I want you to have that one because it's so funny, man, and uh, all this time I've, I've the.

The conversations about prisons usually just happen like around a campfire or when you're sitting on my back porch but like nobody's ever asked me to talk about on a podcast because you're're a huge hunter, you're an outdoorsman.

That's how we connected years ago through the outdoors.

I don't give a fuck about any of that.

People don't know.

Most people don't know about this side of me.

Well, you had commented on something and you're like, yeah, I was like, get your ass on the show.

It's a menace dude Like this is.

People don't know this side of me, and so this is going to be really fun to talk to, and so that was just a way of me saying, like, thank you for the opportunity, because I think the what's exciting to me, to aside from just talking about experiences and crazy stories and all the things is I think this is going to help bring awareness to the fact that like their corrections really is the shittiest job in the world, like it is, it is for sure.

Brutal, and and there's all these people out there doing it that are just under thanked, underpaid, under appreciated, under trained for sure.

And so anything I can do to try and like bring some awareness to them, I'm, I'm all in Perfect yeah, which we have a lot of questions we put out um on social.

There's some good questions that we're going to dive into, so let's just start off.

Let me do every episode, man, where you from yeah, I, uh, I moved to boise my freshman year of high school.

Prior to that, I was in kentucky.

You're a kentucky boy?

Yeah, okay, that's why.

Because you were stationed there, weren't you?

do you spend some time there though?

little bit here and there, not very much though no, yeah, so I grew up in like south central kentucky, so I wasn't like I didn't speak appalachian, I didn't, you know like I still spoke english, but, um, but like, living in kentucky is just crazy man.

It's completely different it's its own world uh, but the people are like salt of the earth.

Take the shirt off their back for you.

And so when I moved to Idaho, it was like culture shock, for sure.

Just everything was different the pace of life, the scenery, the way people spoke, the interactions with people.

When I grew up it was like yes, sir, no, ma'am, you know, direct eye contact.

It was very kind of formal in that sense.

And then when I came here my freshman year, I'm like looking at my teachers in the eye saying, yes, ma'am, they're like dude, what are you doing?

Like why?

are you?

trying to be disrespectful, you know.

I'm like no, no, no, I promise.

And so, yeah, but I've loved Idaho man, I've loved it.

Been here for over 20 years now and, yeah, I just don't ever think I can leave now.

It's pretty incredible spot.

It's not what it used to be, unfortunately, and it is change and changing every day, which it sucks because I mean when we got here we didn't even know there was like a boom.

We didn't even know Idaho was a thing.

I had a job opportunity.

The boss called me.

He's like I need you in Idaho.

And I'm like all right, what the hell is in Idaho?

So we move here.

And then it was like Californians and Washington scumbags and we're like I don't know.

I'm telling the wife, I'm like hey, shut up the license plate as fast as possible Immediately, exactly and so it sucks looking, even us being here like 10 years and it's just.

You've seen the changes.

It's unfortunate, but that's part of life.

And yeah, now everything's just so damn expensive.

If you didn't get in when you got in, you're a good luck.

So, unless you got that Cali money from selling your house but it is what it is, crazy.

Well, dude, let's jump right into it.

What made you want to be a correctional officer?

You know there's not like a really good answer for this other than watching a lot of lockup raw on TV.

Do you remember that show?

That show was the coolest, yes, and I remember being, you know, 15, 16 years old, late at nights on like school nights, staying up and watching it on.

I don't even remember what channel it was, but it was like just back to back episodes and and I was just fascinated by like the gangs and the drugs and the violence and all the things.

And I'm just like this is so crazy and and I kind of always had in my head to like man working in prison seems like it'd be awesome, but I don't know the first thing about it, like I don't even know where to apply.

I don't know anything.

Fast forward a little bit, maybe a year or two, I find out one of my best friends, mom's, works for the department of corrections, like in the headquarter office.

So she's not, you know, she doesn't work in the prisons, she's like an admin Right in the headquarter office.

So she's not, you know, she doesn't work in the prisons, she's like an admin Right.

And I'm like wait what?

Like tell me everything.

Yeah, like tell me everything.

And she's like well, we just had a riot and like the inmates like like took over a unit and they pushed all the staff out and they lit the unit on fire and like people went to the hospital and I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like are you serious?

This is really happens in real life, like here in Idaho.

And she's like, yeah, this just happened.

And I'm like, okay, I don't know where, like, my life is going, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I know at some point I'm going to prison, Like I will be in prison, right, and so I made that decision pretty early on, like I was going to work in a prison.

Well, back then you had to be 21.

Right now it's 18, which is terrifying, bro 18, 18 year old kid, and you're in with me what I did bro stupid.

Whoever made that?

decision.

I'll tell you why they did but again they're saying 18 years of war.

So yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, uh, I'm like all right, I gotta wait till I'm 21, so I'll go to and like just kind of like get life moving a little bit.

So I got married at 20.

I was going to Boise state and like, right when I turned 21, I was applying to department of corrections.

So you knew, right when I knew, I knew I was going to do it, I wanted to so bad so I didn't know what to expect.

I know what to expect.

I didn't know people out there.

I didn't have like an in or anything.

But the good thing about the department of corrections is, like, if you want a job, go get a job, like they are always, literally always hiring.

I don't think they've ever been overstaffed.

No, no way.

And so, uh, yeah, it was like I went, uh, I applied, I did an interview and they were just like, yeah, we'll call you back.

And they call me back and they're like hey, your start date is in like a couple of weeks.

Start date for what school?

So I I can tell you exactly, I think I applied in October my birthday and I started in January.

So I started like three months later and back then.

It may have changed now, but back then this would have been in January of 2011.

Okay, what you did is you would go out for about two weeks prior to going to the police academy.

In the two weeks you were assigned like a training officer and you just shadowed them.

You just followed them around right In the prison, in the prison.

Okay, and the reason they do this is because they were having such a turnover problem they still do, but like such a turnover problem because there was no exposure to prisons prior to this.

You would get hired they're spending all this money.

You'd get hired, you'd get trained, you'd go through post, you'd get your certification and then, all of a sudden, they'd throw you out into prisons and you're like, holy shit, like I'm out, this is insane, right?

So this is the opposite of the military they don't want yeah, they're like.

No, we need you to sign on the dotted line.

Yeah you know, yeah, yeah okay, so, so they would do this.

In those two weeks.

It was like, um, there was like zero commitment, right, so you could back out at any time.

And it was like, okay, this is pretty nice, yeah, and so it's cool.

It was like and we had a ton, uh, we, we lost a ton of people, I would imagine a hundred percent.

And so, um, you know, you, you.

So you go to your little orientation and they assign you a prison.

And as soon as I found out I was going to max, I was just like, yes, like this is what I've always wanted, you know, cause I had some other guys in my class that were like hard charger, like young, fit guys, who were just like ready, and they were like, oh, you're going to the minimum security prison, you're going to the women's prison.

They're just like what you know?

I don't really know how that all shook out, but, man, I got assigned to max and I was just like you said you do the two week intern before going to the police Academy.

Yeah, you went there back.

Then they were sending you through the police academy.

Yeah, so we, we went to post, we went to the post academy, but you didn't do the full patrol academy at a separate corrections academy.

And I want to say that my corrections academy, I think it was five weeks, how was the corrections academy?

Yeah, I mean it was like whatever, you don't learn anything about prisons.

It's all like policy based Right.

So so it's like understanding a use of force, continuum, right.

You start here and then you can like work your way up and right.

So it's like you're learning the policies, you're learning the laws, you're learning the black and white corrections, got it?

None of that really helps you when you're in prison, yeah.

Yeah, but like you got to do it Right and and so, yeah, I did my, I did my, my job shadow stuff.

And I remember when I was doing my, my two weeks of job shadowing this is really like what locked me in, Right.

So I don't remember it was towards the end, I think I'd been there for about two weeks and I hadn't really seen much, like it hadn't been crazy.

I do remember the first time walking up and just seeing.

You know, when you walk up to max, there's two probably 12 foot fences of like 10 rows of razor wire and there's like an electric monitoring thing around it.

There's a patrol vehicle that goes around.

It's locked down tight right, and you get buzzed in the outer gate and then you get buzzed in the inner gate and the gates are slamming behind you and it's kind of like sets in that.

Like this is no joke, like we're in here, yeah, like this is no joke, like they're trying to keep bad people in here, yeah.

And I think that like realization kind of hits home the first day you walk in, like, oh, you know you talk first day as in, this is your officially hired, still on train.

It's like still my, my two weeks.

So even during your two weeks of training, they took you to max, yeah, oh.

So even during your two weeks of training, they took you to max, yeah.

Oh yeah, wait till I tell you, wait till I tell you the story.

So you're not even an official CEO, you're just like.

Hey I want to win my guy.

I want to see if I like this.

They take you to max yeah.

Wait, hold on, it gets better.

Okay, this is wild already.

I'm like, I'm like this, but I still haven't really seen anything crazy.

Right, I've heard the gate slam.

I'm there, I'm like I'm.

You know, I'm still I'm.

This is how fast stuff goes down in prisons.

It's a normal day, nothing's happened.

It's just like every other day.

I love this All of a sudden I'm I'm standing at a window to go out onto a tier Right, and a tier is like a big housing unit and in this unit, or on this tier, there's 32 doors, 16 upstairs, 16 downstairs.

A tier would be considered a block.

So a block would be three tiers.

A block is like the whole housing block, usually with like 96 inmates on it, and then a tier would be one of three sections.

So it's just one section and in this particular unit I was in everybody's locked down, 23 hours a day segregation.

It's where they had death row, is there, right?

So like one person in a cell, and when they come out of their cell they're all in wrist restraints behind their back and they're escorted by a staff.

Right, I mean, it is like lockdown.

We call that administrative segregation, okay.

So I'm standing at this door, I'm looking out, I'm with an officer and all of a sudden I see this female officer who's escorting somebody just get hocked, like just get thrown, and I see her just like, literally like up in the air and like sail, and I'm like what the hell?

And the inmate had slipped out of his restraints.

So you know, he's restrained behind his back, he slips out, grabs on her, hucks her and then takes off sprinting at the inmate ahead of him.

So the inmate ahead of him is restrained also and he doesn't know this guy's coming up behind him and just gets sucker, punched like in the back of the head, boom.

And when he gets hit, the restraint he saw the restraint on his wrist right Cause he slipped out of them the restraint that's on his wrist like opens up and so now you have this like bladed edge of the restraint.

Know how they get on a handcuff, how they pivot around.

So the open edge of the strain like comes over and like hooks into the guy's face and he's like ripping his, his front of his head open and so he's just like gets on top of this dude and just like bang, bang, bang in the back of his head, like hitting him so fast.

And I'm standing at the window just like this is like happening so fast.

I'm what is going on and blood's just like like out of this guy's face.

I was like holy shit.

And the woman I'm with I'm with a female staff member, she's just like open the door, open the door and the door pops open and, um, so we, as we're running out onto the tier the staff member who was holding onto the guy getting punched.

The woman that got thrown.

Oh to the guy that got punched.

She's still like out of the picture, right.

This is like happened in the space of like five to seven seconds.

He's like spraying OC and he's not trying to get into this fight, right, Because this guy's got a like sharp weapon on his hand.

So he's like spraying OC, like yelling at him and stuff, and me and this female officer go running out onto the tier and I'm like I don't know what to do.

I'm just like I'm not even officially hired Watch, I guess.

And so I'm like coughing on the OC and you know, trying not to get blood on me and stuff, and it's chaos, right, and it it's chaos, right, and uh, it's it's still chaos.

We're trying to get guys on the ground and all of a sudden, like a few seconds later, like reinforcements start coming running in, right, and this dude comes running in and I'm just like who is this like?

This guy's like jacked and he's huge and comes running in and just like grabs, this dude throws him on the ground, pushes this guy, throws him on the ground and like there's oc everywhere, everyone's coughing.

And he comes running in and just like grabs, this dude throws him on the ground, pushes this guy, throws him on the ground and like there's OC everywhere, everyone's coughing, and he's just like you know, just like I love this and I'm just like who is this guy, you know?

And so, like dust settles, we get the whole thing taken care of, separate the inmates.

The guy who got attacked has his face all busted up.

We get him out on the rec yard and we're like waiting for medical attention to come, stitch him up and shit, and we're like what the hell is that about?

And he's like I don't know, man, you know I ain't, I'm not talking to you guys.

Yeah, pretty standard, right?

Like I'm not saying anything to and he's like we're holding him, he's got his head down, blood's gushing out of his head and he's like hey, give me a towel.

And we're like I'm watching, right, I've nothing to say, I'm just an observer, I'm watching this, just like this is chaos Like this is insane.

I love it, but like it's insane.

And he's like give me a towel.

And the sergeant there is like no, I ain't getting you shit.

Like you could just like one of my staff just got hurt.

Like no, like you can bleed on your shoes, I don't care.

And he's like if you don't give me a towel, I'm going to start fucking people up.

And I'm like are we about to go for round two?

Like you know, are we about to do this again?

And he's like I'm not getting you a towel, like I don't care if you're bleeding on yourself or your shoes.

Like shut up, you know.

So this guy now starts like okay, like I'm going to like start escalating.

Yeah so he starts spinning himself up and this is the dude that just been attacked, right, this Sergeant comes over and he like reaches under his restraints and he grabs this dude by the back of the head, right, so he's like palming the back of his head and he walks him out of the, the cell where we are we're out on the rec yard.

He walks him out of the cell and just bashes his face into the glass uh door he's so bloody dude like you can't even see his face bashes him into the window blood just like, and he's like you think you're tough motherfucker.

You want to threaten my staff like I will kill you and I'm just like whoa, this just escalated.

I didn't learn any of this.

These are all new tactics, so he like bashes this dude.

and I'm like whoa, all of a sudden medical shows up and so they, they get him out and they start stitching him up and and the sergeant's like let's go ahead and leave that one off our reports.

Huh, and I'm like are we serious?

Like okay, you know.

So obviously in a lot of this, like I'm going to leave people's names out, but like when that happened I was kind of like, okay, like I get it.

Like there's a policy, our first and foremost is like we're going to keep ourselves other inmates safe.

Yeah.

We're going to keep the facility secure and whatever means have to happen.

Between those two things, we got to kind of do what we got to do, yeah, and and at the end of it, the the report says one thing, the camera may say one thing.

The truth is probably gonna be something different.

100.

I learned that my first week 100, and then you have the whole inmate side, his version of what happened.

Yeah, so then I go to post and you know I go to the police academy, do my five weeks there.

You haven't even done the academy.

I still haven't been there, right?

This is all on my pre okay, okay so I go to the police academy and they're like everything's black and white, there's no gray area.

It's like policy and if you're outside of policy you're breaking the law and like you will be investigated and you're this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah you're like um, I wasn't saying shit, I was was like.

I was like yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, oh for training purposes.

Yeah, yeah, this is how we're going to do it.

I'm like I know what you guys are doing, so I go back out to max, finish my.

I finished my thing, my, uh, my post.

I go head.

I'm like I want to be that guy that came out on the tier and that everyone was like, as soon as he came out, everything just like, just like the temperature came down and everyone was like, okay, we're gonna be safe, like someone who actually knows what the hell they're doing here.

Yeah, so get back out there.

I go find him and I'm like talk to me, like who are you?

What do you do?

And like, why was that all of a sudden just easier when you showed up and he's like look, 99 of people that work for the department of corrections are the exact same.

They're the exact same.

They're they're filling a role, they're a body, they're checking a box, they're showing up and they're doing their thing.

He's like there's about one percent of people who are going to keep the rest of everyone else here safe.

They're the 1% who, like people, are going to call when, like, shit goes down.

If you want to be a 1%, like a piece of that, he's like just follow me and I'm like, okay, done, you were sold.

I was sold dude, and like I remember the conversation dude I was, I, we were standing in the very front entry, like in the front foyer at max, and I was just like, yes, like tell me what I need to do, tell me where to go, where to be when I'm there.

Was this guy liked by everybody, or was he?

loved by everybody.

Really.

Okay, he was hated by administration for always, a hundred percent, always.

Should have been probably a Lieutenant but was a corporal, right.

So it's like officer, corporal, sergeant, lieutenant, right, so you know.

But everybody at that facility loved this guy.

He had the confidence, not just the confidence, but like the means to back up the confidence.

One of the very first lessons I learned in prisons stems from that where it's like when you're a new staff member, a new officer, and you're walking out on the tier, nobody gives a shit who you are.

They don't care what you did prior, they don't care if you were in the military, they don't care if you were prior law enforcement, they don't care if you're 45 or 21,.

Like they don't care, you are nobody.

But I would see these guys walking around and just like certain people, like certain people were respected by all the inmates, like they didn't mess with them, they didn't talk shit to them, they did like they.

Just it was like a mutual respect and I'm like, how do you get to that point?

Like what, what is that you know have?

the respect of inmates.

Have the respect of inmates obviously there's, there's something, something right yeah?

because when I walk out by myself, people like pussy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like you know, I'm getting made fun of every time I come out.

I was gonna ask you how, how was it, as a brand new 21 year old, walking into a maximum security facility as a correction officer?

How are you treated?

Relent?

they were relentless, dude, they were relentless.

They made fun of me all the time like and it was stupid stuff.

Like I I probably weighed going into it.

I was like I want to get huge, like I want to be a monster.

I probably weighed like 230 pounds and I wasn't fat.

I was like, yeah, I was pretty big, but I I just had like really big arms and shoulders.

Like my chest wasn't very big.

They picked it apart.

They would be like why would you bench press every once in a?

while Like it's like, it was, like it was like relentless, like anything they could find that they could tell would get under your skin and like you don't talk to me like that, it's so stupid and they would do.

They would make fun of me relentless.

It's so stupid and, uh, they would dude, they would make fun of me relentless, right, yeah, and so I was just like all right, you know what, like I'm just gonna keep biding my time and I'm gonna learn from the right people.

Okay, because there's a lot of people out there who had been there for a while but, like I could tell, just didn't have that like killer instinct.

They didn't have the drive, they didn't have like they were the% that he had told me about.

They're just filling a spot right.

So I started like doing and emulating the things that I saw from those 1% people.

So anytime like an opportunity to train would come up, boom, I would take it.

And so I just started taking on everything I could Like.

Anytime someone pop up, hey, we're doing advanced cell extraction training, boom, I'm in Like sign me up, let's do it.

And so I started doing all these things.

So before I get into this, I gotta give you the caveat that you know, back in this time it may have changed a little bit since then, but back in this time when a new correction officer got hired, you got hired at $13 and 14 cents an hour 13, 14.

This isn't that long ago, this is 2010.

So guys would get hired.

It was just after the recession, and so we were getting a lot of guys who were like former construction guys, painters, like labor guys, blue collar guys who were used to making a lot of money.

Now they're making 13 bucks an hour doing this.

And so guys we had I think the statistic was 80% of people didn't make it a full year.

90% of people didn't make it 18 months right In the correctional facilities.

Yes, that's wild 80%.

So there's this kind of like resistance to welcome new people.

Oh, because these inmates are.

It's a revolving door of correctional officers, 100% Okay.

They're like screw you.

I'm not even going to take like you're not even worth my.

You're not even going to be here.

You're not even worth my be here.

You're not gonna be here, exactly yeah, and the same thing with staff.

It was both staff and inmates.

Okay, the staff who had been there for like five years are like I'm not even gonna learn your name till you've been here for a year, because you're gonna be gone in three weeks so the whole, the whole work environment, obviously being a crash facility is or prison is toxic.

But then you're adding the cyclic rate of turnover, so you're not even you don't even really have like friends in there, because they're, they don't even want to get to know you because 80 are going to be quit before yeah, it was so hard to make friends because as soon and you need that, right, you need the camaraderie, yeah, but like you don't get it, you'd go into a unit to work and you're like I've never seen any of these people before but like, hey guys, you know, like let's, let's be safe today.

Um, so that was that was hard, that was a challenge.

So so I'm like, so I'll come together.

So I'm like, okay, I found out that to be on the emergency response team, you had to be there for a year.

Okay, so I was like, minimum, I'm being here a year, like I don't know what the future holds, but at minimum I will make it a year.

So I do some training and stuff and I do like some cell extraction training and some use of force training and some different things, uh, in my first couple months.

But the thing about ims, the maximum security prison I'll give you a little history here.

They had some really bad stuff happen in like the 90s, the early 2000s, um, and and and.

Then, even as we got into like the late 2000, like 2008, 2009, there's some really nasty stuff that happened you're talking riots, killings riots, murder, like one of my really good friends got stabbed in 2008.

A staff member got stabbed in the neck and in the face on one.

Yeah, and and so the state was like we're locking this prison down, like we are done.

That was one thing that I will give the state of Idaho.

You know, as I'm talking about corrections, the state of Idaho is a really good place to do prison time, like it's.

It really is.

When you compare it to like Mississippi or Louisiana, alabama, right, it's a.

Idaho is a good place to do prison time.

Okay, yeah, I would say I would agree, but the caveat to that is Idaho does not mess around.

Like if you want to come in and be a shit like, we're going to give it to you, you know.

And so the state of Idaho, idaho, just prior to when I started, was like the maximum security prison from here.

Like we are locking this place down.

Every cell in this prison is now going to be single cell, administrative segregation.

Nobody comes out of their cell unless they're in restraints.

Like we are done with staff assaults and prison assaults and all these things.

Right makes sense, and so what they did is they locked this place down and then it was like if guys in another prison stabbed somebody, okay, you're gonna go sit and add seg for a year right in in other states.

It's like you might do a month or two in the hole and then you get out right back to it.

I was like no, when you're doing that like we are cutting down on the violence and all the nonsense did that actually work?

oh yeah, I guess, because that's what?

okay, yeah so when I started, the administration in prisons was were all these old school guys who came through that okay?

So my prison administration back then was like there's zero tolerance in this facility.

It was so like it was crazy, dude.

So much so that if you were escorting somebody and somebody just like even turned their head to look at you, you'd slam them on the ground, really like.

Slam them like zero tolerance, dude.

Okay, how are the inmates receiving that?

Oh, they knew like they were respectful.

They knew like if I, if I slip up this much like my teeth will be on the concrete.

And that was like we made that so clear, really.

And and so if someone was like standing behind their door saying like when you pull me out, like I'm going to do this and this and this, it's like you do realize, like if that happens, like you're gonna be spitting your teeth out, right, and they're like, yep, and I'm like, okay, pull them out, boom teeth.

You know it was like they knew and for the most part, we didn't have issues, okay, except for, you know, the occasional one awful thing.

So I'm a size like one of the safest prisons in the state for several years.

So when I started, people were kind of like, yeah, this place back in the day used to be really fun, like it used to be crazy, and now we're so like the control is so tight and like the zero tolerance for stuff, like it's kind of boring and I'm like I don't want to do boring, like I want to do it, like I want to have fun, like I want, like I want chaos, like I want, you know, I want to be in the shit.

So about six months into me working there, something changed.

I don't know what it was.

Something changed Six months in.

I'm like just normal day, all of the emergency response guys, like the high speed dudes, they're all out training.

So I'm in the prison.

I've been there for about six months and a guy comes in from Canyon County.

He was a Native American dude, had some mental health problems and he came in because he did a serious staff assault over in Canyon County.

And Canyon County was like we can't house this guy, like he's too much, too dangerous, whatever.

So he brought him to us and so we get him in and the the um, like the shift commander, was like hey, we need to put an emergency response team together to like go get this guy from the receiving area, where he comes out and get him into a holding cell, but all the emergency response guys are gone.

So, like, austin, we need you to be a part of this team and I'm like well, I've never done this before, but like, sign me up like I'm all in so it's me and two other dudes now.

The fact that we were in this era of like just smash everyone first and ask questions later really worked to my benefit, because we didn't use oc, like we didn't use pepper spray, we didn't you, we didn't use anything, like we didn't try and really communicate all that much.

We're just like no, let's just use force every time because, like everyone understands that, you know.

So we get down to that.

We get down there.

We're like hey, you know back up to be restra, we're going to take you to your holding cell.

He's like steps back from the window and like rips his shit off and just like I'm sorry, oh hell, yeah, like this is so good.

I've been waiting for this this is my dream, right, but in my head I'm like I'm like, okay, I remember my training, like go in the cell, you hit him, you pin him up against the wall and then like, and I'm like walking through.

I'm like there's like step one, step two, step three, right, I'm like I got the steps.

So me and these two dudes door opens up, I go running in, smack the guy.

I like, drive him into the, the cinder block wall in the back, boom.

And I, I like drive him into the, the center block wall in the back, boom.

And I'm like holding him.

I'm like, okay, step one done.

I'm like step two, like secure the arms.

I'm looking over, I look over at this arm and he's just like punching the dude in the face, just boom, boom, boom.

Like, well, that's not step two.

I look over at this arm and he's choking the dude with the other right.

So he's choking one guy and punching the other guy.

You have him.

I'm like pinning him up against the wall and I'm like, oh, this isn't going according to plan, Like this is bad.

And in my head I'm like, is this like an escalation of force?

It's my first force incident, like I don't really know, but I'm like this isn't good.

So, out of the corner of my eye, time to figure this out this is like happening in real time, right.

I'm like this is bad, yeah.

I like look over and I see a toilet and I'm like, well, I guess I could like spike his head in the toilet and like probably end this pretty quick, you know.

So I'm just like, screw it.

I drop down double leg right, pick this dude up, turn him over and just spike his head in the toilet.

And his forehead hits like right, and these toilets are steel.

And his forehead hits like right into the edge of the toilet and just goes and splits open, no, knocks him out.

Cold blood just goes.

And so he's like laying face down in a huge pile of blood, not moving, and I'm like, oh shit, like I'm I'm screwed, dude.

I'm fired.

I just killed this dude.

Yeah, 100 I'm fired, 100 I'm fired so we, we restrain the guy, stitch him up, get him to a cell and all these these like planned use of force events are videotaped and then, after you finish them, you go into like a debriefing with like the prison admin, the shift commanders, everybody and you watch it and you like digest everything and you debrief and here's what you did wrong and whatever.

So I'm just like oh gosh, this is bad this is really bad, not good.

So we get in the debrief, watch the video, get to the part where I'm like this is bad, this is bad, and I'm like I know what's coming here.

It is Spike drop.

And I'm just like, oh gosh, like I'm getting fired.

I've only been here six months, you know, and I kind of do this sheepish, like looking around the room, so, looking around the room, so we good, what's happening?

And the the lieutenant sitting next to me is like how long you been here?

I'm like six months.

And she's like that was one of the best techniques I've ever seen, really like come again, you know.

And then the shift commander's like, hey, you do what you got to do.

Like in those situations, like you said, you saw the opportunity to like end it and you ended it, good job.

And I'm like so I'm not fired, like literally, I'm like so I'm not getting fired.

You know like what?

Actually, you're promoted I was.

I was employee of the year that year, oh my god so I'm like I'm literally this.

I'm like I'm not getting fired.

I'm like, no, that was perfect.

I'm like I'm home, like this is home, this is the greatest place of all time.

Literally from that cell extract, like that plan used to force event.

It was like the prison, like administration, the staff, everybody was just like hey, come on bro.

Like you're one of us now.

Okay, so you got accepted at that point.

And then it was like and then I told you, like IMSI that's the name of the prison IMSI, IMSI had been so boring and locked down.

I don't know what it was.

But after that use of force, all of a sudden it was like the inmates were like you know what?

Like we ain't doing this no more.

Like we've been locked down for like three years, Like nah, and we were banging like every single day, dude.

How Okay.

So every single day, dude During lockdown, is it getting them out of their cells?

Is that when all of this was coming?

All of it.

It was insane dude.

It was like every single day.

No-transcript crazy dude that does that's not terrifying, like every?

Day you go to work, you're just okay.

How many fistfights am?

I gonna get.

Oh, listen, we'll, we'll get there.

Right, I'm still six months in at this point.

Okay, I'm six months at the tip of the.

So this is good, so this is going right.

And and it's just like, little by little, I'm getting my hands dirtier and dirtier and more and more.

After my first first year I get off probation and they have this job opening where they're like the job is called response and escort officer, okay, and there's like an official, like job description for it.

But they were like hey, we want you in this role and we're basically just going to kind of use you where we need you, so, like when stuff pops off, you don't have to like leave your unit.

I wasn't assigned to a unit, I was assigned like to the facility and I could respond.

It makes it fun, bro.

It was the best because for a whole year I was just their hammer.

Really it was awesome.

So for a whole year on day shift I'm just the department's like, hey, we need a guy to go like, do this Okay.

What is this, you name it, dude, it was like we had everything happen, man, we had, you know, I remember one time walking in a cell or walking in a unit, because I'd go just like hang out and help out and stuff.

And I was in a block one time and we walked by a cell and this guy's swimming in like five feet of water.

He'd like made a pool in his cell and literally he had jammed like uh, plane cards, like a deck of cards.

He jammed cards into the door to like wedge it shut so that it couldn't open.

And then he had jammed like, um, he'd made like this, like paste, almost to like paste off the door frame so the water couldn't escape, and then just started flooding his cell and we didn't know it Right.

And so like the water just keeps flooding and flooding and all of a sudden, like I don't know how much time it took to fill the cell, the dude was legitimately swimming and we're like what the hell are you doing?

He's like I'm swimming.

We're like, well, like get this shit out, like no, and he's like, no, I'm swimming.

You know, just like.

We're like well, like get this shit out, like no.

And he's like, no, I'm swimming, like come get me if you want me to stop, like I'm swimming, fascinating.

And so, yeah, we had to get a Halligan tool, pry the door open, full deluge of water.

And we were on the upper upstairs.

So it's pouring down, it's a waterfall off the off the upper deck waterfall, and as we're, we're going in and he'd like put a bunch of soap and shit in there, and so now it's like a bubble bath, but it's like slick.

So we're going in trying to like swim through the water, to like get our hands on this guy, and it's, it's just a mess, you know.

And then the opposite we had guys that would like pile all their shit in the middle of the cell and like light it on fire, you know.

And then the opposite, we had guys that would like pile all their shit in the middle of the cell and like light it on fire.

You know, they'd rip the, rip the.

Uh, how is that a good idea?

oh dude, that's what I'm saying.

Like it was like imsi went from the most boring prison on the planet to, all of a sudden, people were just like, nah, not today, not anymore.

It was chaos, dude.

Um, and so for that year I was like it was perfect for me, right, because I was, I was young, I was hungry, I was like kind of angry, right, and just like I felt like I had to prove myself to everybody, like this and vinegar, yeah well it's like you know I want you, like you guys are gonna respect me one way or another, right and, and so I just felt like I had something to prove to everybody and, um, it was chaos, man.

I could only imagine it was chaos.

Have you ever had shit, or?

piss thrown at you.

Oh, so many times Really.

Oh yeah, there's so many ways people do it, man, you say that, so just.

It was.

I'm telling you this prison was crazy, so the piss and shit thing is very common Really.

Yeah, and like there's, the worst way it would happen was people would get a milk carton.

Okay.

And then they would piss and shit in it and they would like mix it up Right, and then they would put it into the crack of the door.

Jam, right, it's the opening.

So then when you would walk by, they'd go bam, no blast through the door.

You're just like gas.

You yeah, you just in the face as you would walk by.

Yes, dude, that never happened to me, but that happened.

I can think of two occasions that that happened to people.

I am murdering somebody 100, yeah, I more, more often than than the, the piss and shit was.

Uh, spit I got, I had.

Man, I actually thought I killed a guy one time and and like legitimately killed and I was terrified, like I'm serious dude, like you want to talk about being scared, like think that you went too far and you're like oh, I'm I'm picking up murder charges committed.

Dude, this guy, one time man, I was putting him into a cell and he was a known spitter.

And usually with known spitters you put a spit hood on them right and it covers their that's like mesh from the nose up and then they can't spit from, or there's like covered from the nose down.

So we usually put a spit hood on these guys.

Well, after like a couple months without an incident, you take it off.

So I'm escorting this guy and I have in the back of my head like, if he even flinches my direction game over, sure enough, dude, I'm taking him to medical.

Like down in the medical facility, as he's going into the cell, I hear like do the spit sound?

And I see his head turn, am I?

Nope, and he was kind of a smaller guy and I'm holding on to his arm and so I pick him up and I'm sweeping the leg like all in one motion, right, I like do this pickup, sweep?

And as he's doing the spit, I don't know if it was like a mixture of me picking him up, but like he kind of jumped.

I think he was trying to like get out of my grip.

So he jumped as I'm picking him up, so he's now like probably 18 inches off the ground as I'm slamming him and he goes face first with like every bit of muscle I can muster KOs, this dude, and I'm like oh no.

And I like I like grab onto his leg and I'm like, oh, he is like a noodle.

And I'm like, hey, I roll them over.

I'm in medical, so I'm like I need some medical help.

And and they're like, first, like give him a titty twister.

That's like one of the I was like one of the things you do.

You'd give him a titty twister.

If that didn't work, you'd like sternum, sternum, check, and you know all these stupid things.

So I'm like I'm like double titties and like nothing.

I'm like I killed, Like that's not a good feeling, that's terrifying, Right, and and stuff like that man I'm telling you like it was just when I say it was chaos, it was like that every single day.

And and and the other thing is it wasn't always like force related stuff, right, it was like the force related stuff was happening almost every day.

You factor in the fact that you have acute mental health, like like people that are just so glinked that no amount of medication can like write the ship right.

It's like gone, the cheese is off the cracker.

Yeah.

And it doesn't take much for them to to, just you know, break something in their cell, get a sharp piece of plastic and, just like, fillet themselves open.

Really.

And like you'd just be like walking by a cell and think that you were in like a butcher shop and there's like blood on the like 360 and this like, and the guy's just laying there in like two inches of blood and you're like you know so it's like you're dealing with all of this and and this is what makes prison so hard, in my opinion you come in, you work five.

Back then we worked five days a week, eight hours, right.

So you come in, you see a guy who, you see a guy die, and then you think you kill a guy.

And then you like see a staff member get assaulted, and then you're driving home to like pick your kids up from school, like oh you know what I mean like covered in, like piss and shit and blood, yeah, and then you, you throw your clothes in the wash, you shower, you eat dinner and you're still just like like in a state of shock, and then you wake up and do it all over again a few hours later, and then you do it over again, and then you do it over again and and you never turn it off, and now $13 an hour, $13 an hour For $13 an hour.

And that's one of the things that was so hard for me.

I used to say that I felt more comfortable in prisons than I did at home.

Why, that didn't make sense, right, but it was in prisons.

I was in control, like I had control over everything, and if something got out of control, like if it got outside of ordinary, I would use any amount of force it took to put it back in ordinary.

And now, like we've reached equilibrium, right.

When you're outside of prison and you're at home, you have people honking at you, people yelling at you, giving you the finger.

Like you have all these things, you have all this like real world chaos that you cannot control.

And when you're in this like already hyper state of like, like, oh, like anyone can get it at any time, like that's not good, like you're like a walking time bomb, oh, a hundred percent Right.

And so that's how I feel.

Most cops are for sure, yeah, for sure.

But like in in prisons, though I would get in, like I'd walk in the the first door, walk in the second door, the door would slam behind me, boom, and it was like I could do like crazy dude.

Yeah, I could.

I felt more comfortable in the chaos of prisons because I was in control, yeah, and and eventually, like over time, it got to the point where you know, the force, the self-injury, the whatever it was, was so comfortable that, like, I don't even think my heart rate would change Really.

We would literally like get into a fight with somebody and go back and be doing reporting and like new staff would be like, oh my gosh, like that was so crazy, like and I'm just like, yeah, dude, I can't wait for the next one to pop off in about 14 minutes.

You know, like it was so crazy, um, yeah, man, it's insane.

It's insane.

It's insane because, from my experience, was just so unique yeah because if you could talk to 99 guys right now from the south boise complex and they would tell you like it's the same thing every day, it's just like doing the same shit.

Nah, it wasn't like groundhog's day with just violence, with violence dude.

I remember I remember one time being like I think I've seen it all, like I think I've seen it all.

Like I think I've seen it all.

I've seen people die, I've seen, I've seen staff assaults, I've seen inmates assaults.

I've seen, I've seen it all, seen drugs and seen it all.

One day I'm walking through mental health and this guy is like laying on his back and he's got his pants off and his nutsack is filleted open and he's like twisting on one of his testicles and I'm like what are you doing?

And he's like I just don't want it anymore.

And I'm like, excuse me, he's like I just don't want it.

And I'm like you're not, like you don't want it.

He's like I don't want it.

And he's just like twisting it, trying to like, I guess, kill the circulation, like pop it off.

And I'm like you know, kind of like nauseous, I haven't seen it all.

Bingo, I'm like there's something new, check that box, right.

So I like I call him, call an emergency ambulance comes and they're like austin, you found it.

So like you take him to the hospital.

So I go to the hospital with him, me and another guy, and uh, get to the hospital and the doctor is like so what'd you do to cut your nutsack open?

Like what'd you do it with?

he's like I use fingernail clippers and I'm like oh he clipped open and the doctor's like where are they now?

He's like up my butt.

And I'm like no, no.

And the doctor's like he like looks at me and he's like we're gonna have to get those out and I'm like, no, you're gonna, you're I'm not getting up.

So sure enough, my job title, bro.

He takes an x-ray Finger nail clippers, go up his butt and then turn this way, so they're now sideways.

I'm looking at him, just like I'm looking at this inmate.

Listen, this is where it gets better.

It gets better.

He's a rapist, okay, and I'm like that's what you get 100%, that's what you get 100, 100%.

That's what you get 100%.

So this is where it gets better.

Doctor goes I this sounds like I'm making this up.

I sweat like if there was a bible here I would put my hand on and swear.

I swear this is a true story.

Doctor looks at me and goes.

Doctor looks at me and goes.

He gets this like big ass glove and goes we're gonna have to go in manually, and manually it does like the glove snap, like the classic, like gloves, where you have to go in manually, and I'm just like, yes, this is beautiful.

So sure enough, dude.

He's like roll over, like digs in there, gets the fairy nail clippers, pulls them out and he's still.

He's still cut open, like like the nuts are still open.

They're not bleeding, bleeding, but like it's open.

He has a group of medical students there with him, like observing, and we're in the ER.

Okay, wait, st Al's.

This is St Al's downtown, okay.

And, and so I know I'm like all over the place on these stories.

No, no, no, you're good.

I wasn't sure if you were still in like a hospital in the prison I'm in, I'm in st alice right now, okay, and he turns to his medical students and he's like denny, you guys want to try this.

And this one little guy's like, he's like I'll stitch him up.

So I'm watching this guy do the stitches and he's shaking so bad and I'm watching the stitches and it's like one's over here, one's like back over, one's like back over here, one's back over here.

And I'm just like ah, screw it.

Like perfect job, buddy.

Perfect job, bro.

I used to love taking inmates to the hospital for stuff like that because it was so fun just seeing, like just seeing doctors, nurses, people and how they interacted with inmates.

Like it was just so fun.

Were they timid about it?

Like what, what people?

and how they interacted with inmates.

Like it was just so fun.

Were they timid about it?

Like what makes it?

It was like, how were they treated?

different.

Oh, they're treated so different.

Dude, it was like Good way or bad way, like inmates are treated bad Really, really Like you would think they'd kind of just be like treat everyone the same.

No, the hospitals treat inmates way worse Really, and I had had, I would say, about half the times I took inmates to the hospital.

We would have a force incident At the hospital At the hospital.

I actually just had a nurse reach out and she's like you need to have somebody that's been in a hospital for a career.

She's like the most violent shit happens in a hospital and she's like and the cops don't do anything.

Oh, maybe the cops didn't, but, dude, we were slamming people in the hospital.

Oh yeah.

I mean you're, that's why you're there this one time.

This, this inmate.

He was a guy who was like a known piss and shit in people's face guy and he'd got a couple of my friends and so I was like I'm going to take any opportunity I can, right, but this guy had told us that he had a weapon up his butt and so we were like we got to take him to the hospital and find out, right, and so I'm trying to remember why.

I know we did an x-ray and the x-ray didn't find anything.

And if I remember right, I think he was trying to say that it wasn't metal, right, like I can't.

This is a long time ago.

But so the doctor's like we're going to have to put him through like a CT machine I think that's what it was, but it was one.

It was one of the ones where he lays on his back and then he has to like slide on the machine through and then he gets to this side and then it slides back.

I don't remember what the machine is.

Well, he starts being a little shit and he like starts making fun of the nurses and starts resisting and all this stuff.

So we start using force and we're like punching the guy and doing stuff as he's on the machine.

So he'll like he'll be like sliding through and I'm like punching him, and then he'll like get a certain way and then we'll like pass him off to the next guys.

So as he's coming out the other side, they start punching him and the nurse is back.

You're like, yeah, kick his ass.

So I'm like we're like a cheer squad, right.

So I'm laughing, like trying not to laugh, and it was because we had to take his his belly chains off, right, because he's going through his thing.

So he's like unrestrained, he's like super violent, looking for any chance he can.

So that's why we use force.

So we're like we get it done and as we get done, we like pull him off thing and we're trying to get his belly chains back on and he's like I ain't going back in those things, right.

So now we have this force incident.

So he starts resisting, we start wrestling a little bit and I look over and I see this like big machine right here or out into the hallway and I'm like, and so like this is all happening really fast, right, I'm like machine hallway, people walking by.

I'm like I don't want to go out there with him.

So I just like grab him head first, boom into this machine and down we go and then get them all restrained.

And the doctor's like did you have to pick that machine?

I'm like I don't know, like it was there.

And he's like there's like two of those in the state of Idaho and it's like a hundred grand I'm like whoops, that was dude's face in print.

Yeah, it was just that.

That was.

That's why it was so crazy man.

Speaking of, you can't plan for that stuff.

No, speaking of butt stuff, this was from one of our our listeners.

Squat and cough.

Yeah, making inmates squat and cough.

If you ever had anything come out, does it even work?

I have.

Yeah, yes, it does really yeah yeah um, but like inmates know you're gonna do it right.

So, um, the particular time that I'm thinking of what it was, was so what you're, what you're doing right when you squand cough, when they cough it like makes the sphincter kind of do this like push out, okay, right, so if something's up there, a ways you're not gonna see it.

This is the stuff that's right on the edge.

Like it's right on the edge, but what inmates will do is they'll shove stuff way up there but they'll put like a tampon string right hanging out so that they can just like grab it and pull it out.

So oftentimes what you would see is like this little string just kind of like you know barely just kind of like poke out the bottom and so you'd be like also like I need to pull that out, you know.

And so, yeah, we would-.

Is it mainly drugs?

I never found drugs in the rectum.

I found like a sharpened instrument, is what you'd call it like a shank.

Yeah.

One time that was tied to a little piece of string, did find a cell phone in someone's butt with a charger.

Yeah what.

Yeah.

What?

Yeah, that was, that was crazy dude.

Listen, this is crazy.

Um, this is in.

This is in the most restricted.

This is actually the same inmate that got jumped in my first story that got the handcuffs splitting his head open.

That same dude was in, like our most restrictive housing unit.

He's in B block and he's out on the rec yard and one of the inmates rats him out.

He's like hey, just so you know, like when this guy goes out on the rec yard he's got a cell phone and he's talking on the phone and you can't see it from the cameras because B block is so secure, like even the rec yard, it's concrete boxes so we can't see in on the cameras.

And so he'd go out and he'd talk on the phone, then shove it up his butt and come back to a cell.

Oh my.

So, what phone are we talking?

We're talking like a Nokia flip phone.

Okay.

Not like a big iPhone like a little flip phone.

You never know.

And so we pull them off the rec yard and we have this chair that you could sit in and it would tell us if there's metal in your body, like you'd sit in the chair and depending on where the metal was, we had this thing and it would light up.

You could do it Like people would hide razor blades in their cheeks, like in between their teeth, interesting, and so you could like make them, you know, basically like metal, detect their faces.

We'd find stuff all the time with this machine.

It worked great.

So he sits on the machine, it lights up on his butt and I'm like you got something in there.

He's like, no, I don't.

I'm like, well, you do, and uh, I'm not gonna go like I can't like force it out of him, right?

So the protocol is you take him to medical and you'd put him on um.

Defecation watch is the term for it oh fun, is that a new?

guy job.

It should be right.

But we get into medical and the shift commander's like austin, you found it like, this is your thing.

You do the defecation.

I'm like, but I don't want to do this.

He's like no, you got it, I'm like.

So I like I have to like read the policy because I'm like I've never done this.

I got you got time right?

Yeah, for this to take a shit.

He's just sitting there and he's naked right and so he's naked in the cell and I'm like reading the policy and I'm like, I'm like laughing as I'm reading it, like bro, oh, this sucks, it's like.

It's like feed him corn.

If he refuses, force feed him corn, right what the hell does corn do?

Because when corn passes through, you know that it's like worked its way through the system.

So when you?

see corn come out in his poop you're like, well, there's nothing in there, you know, because the corn's fat.

So it's like get corn from kitchen, feed him corn, force feed him corn if he won't eat corn.

This is in the policies yeah and then it's like when inmate poops like, have poop, poop in bag, get chops, get these like popsicle sticks cut up like dice, uh poop and look for contraband.

You know, I'm like so I'm reading this and I'm like I'm going to tell you right now you pull that cell phone out because I'm not force feeding you corn and digging through your shit Like I'm not doing it, bottom line, like I'm not doing it.

And he's like okay, you're right.

Yeah, he's like he's like you're.

You're right.

He's like I don't want you forced me to be court you know, either way, the outcome is going to be the same.

You're the same punishment if you pull it out.

Yeah, yeah and you're about to make a lifelong enemy.

Yeah, I will ruin your life if I have to dig through your shit.

Yeah, so he's like way of putting it 100 right.

So I'm so he's like he's like, look, I'll a deal with you, go get me a bag, like a trash bag.

And then don't watch.

And I'm like, uh, done, like okay, so I go get the trash bag, I hand it to him.

He's like turn around.

I'm like, yeah, now I'm watching this.

So I turn around and uh, you know, 20 seconds goes by and he knocks on the window and, uh, he'd smash the phone after he took it out, which I didn't care.

And so he hands me the the phone and he's got uh like a plug-in wall charger, like with the thing and I'm like all of this was in there, like are you kidding?

and he's, like you know, just a little shrug.

I'm like all right.

Well, like that's it you know so yeah, so yeah, people shove stuff up there all the time.

Yeah, cell phone in the butt man, prison's crazy.

He got it from.

He got it from a visitor.

A visitor brought it, okay, and a visitor put it in the.

So, like in max's, the way we used to do visiting the, the visitors would be on one side of the glass and the inmates would be on one side, no contact, and they'd talk through phones.

So she came in, she put the, the phone like up under the desk where the phone was, and then the janitor, who's an inmate, because we had minimum security janitors they did all the cleaning, the laundry, the painting, like the maintenance kitchen, like all that's done by inmates.

So the inmate janitor for the unit comes in, gets the phone, takes it out to the tier with him and then I don't know if he left it on the rec yard or but somehow he got it back to him.

So yeah, that's how that contraband got in it is one of the things about prison that fascinates me is how they're able to get so much into prison and then finding out that a huge portion of contraband coming into prison is coming from the CEOs.

Yeah yeah.

That's wild.

It's wild dude, and I'll tell you there's a huge portion of like going through training.

That's like do not get compromised by inmates Cause once you do, they own you, they own you, they'll get anything from you, right?

And I remember the first time I saw a staff member get compromised.

It was a female and she was, um.

We were doing a cell search and I'd I'd worked with this female so many times and she'd been there for about a year.

And we're searching this gangbanger cell he's a Aryan Knight, like one of the big white gangs in Idaho and searching the cell and all of a sudden I like see a picture of her and like you know, lingerie.

And I'm like, wait, what?

Really?

She worked in the unit.

And I like look at the picture.

I'm like wait, that's.

And I like look.

And all of a sudden, and now all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, these are like naughty, naughty pictures.

And it's like not one, not two, I mean, it's like a stack.

And it's like, oh shit, dude, I know, and that sucks, man, Because it's like those are the people that I'm supposed to be counting on to wash my back on.

To wash my back right, yeah, I'm, I'm counting on that, when something goes down, that you are going to make sure I go home safe and vice versa.

And when you're compromised at that level, I don't know if you're slipping the dude a knife.

I don't know if you're like I don't know what?

because people, when they get caught up in the emotional, in the feeling side of things, you make very irrational decisions.

Giving an inmate nude photos of yourself is like the least thing you got to worry about.

But if you're going to that extent and you're in the system like, where does it evolve?

Like, and then it's just then, once they own you and you can correct me if I'm wrong let's say, you, you just give an inmate a simplest like a cigarette, whatever.

Yeah, the second you cross that line, they now have you, because then they can just rat you out and your career is done.

So then it's like, hey, I need this, hey, I need this, and then it evolves and evolves, and evolves.

So you have to be so careful, dude, because it's the things that you think are like just minor.

It always starts with something small.

I remember, and then I'll tell you a really sad story about a staff that got compromised.

But I remember for me, one time I was out at one of the minimum security blocks, and so this is like where all the workers work.

Those worker units are pretty laid back, like they usually don't get in a lot of trouble.

People are trying to get to those units.

You want to get to those units because you get paid.

You get like 12 cents an hour, which get in a lot of trouble.

People are trying to get to those units.

You want to get to those units because you get paid.

You get like 12 cents an hour, which isn't a lot.

But when you got 40 year sentence, like man, go make a couple of bucks and buy some commissary, right, so people want to get there.

It's a reward.

I was out there one day, I was working like the evening shift and, uh, you kind of let you kind of give them a little slack, right, you can't be.

I was never that black and white, but even more out there, yeah, and they're like, hey, man, we're gonna make some ice cream and I'm like, all right, okay, do it.

And and they have their whole thing where they make it.

They put all the ingredients and a bunch of salt and stuff in a bag and they get and they put it in a bathtub.

And then they basically like making a with an ice cream maker right, you know the old one, yeah, same thing.

Making a with an ice cream maker right, you know the old one, yeah, same thing.

In a bathtub, with the these plastic bags, you make ice cream.

And I was just like, yeah, whatever, I don't care, make, make your ice cream.

And so they make it.

And then they're like they bring me a bowl and they're like hey, man, we just want to say like, thanks a lot, and let's make it.

And I'm like, and right away, I'm just like hell, yeah, like I'd love some ice cream, like that sounds great.

And I'm like nah, man, I'm good.

Like, and, as a matter of fact, like remember who I am.

And like remember what this is.

Yeah.

And that's all I'm going to say.

Like won't take it any further, but like don't even ask me next time.

So something that simple.

Yeah, Can't, don't even ask me next time.

So something that simple.

Yeah, Because like he might not have meant anything by it.

He might've genuinely just been being polite.

Yeah, he might've also been like step one right.

Step one was me grooming.

Yeah.

Step one was me looking the other way because they shouldn't be making ice cream, yup.

And then it's just one step after the other.

So in those worker units we used to have and they probably still do, but it's a single man post, so one staff member would be out there at a time with, I think, probably 30 or 32, 36, something like that inmates, and there were two units single man post and and then there's three shifts.

Right, there's, there's daytime, the evening, up until I can't remember what time 10 PM, I think, and then like 10 PM to 6 AM.

Well, they had a female doing the 10 PM to 6 AM single man post out there, which already I'm like that's sketch.

I don't know if that's a great idea.

Yeah, sure enough, man, find out through a phone call, cause all the phone calls are recorded and there's an investigations team that listens to phone calls.

They go through the mail that you know, looking for contraband and shit like that over here on a phone call, this inmate bragging that he was banging a co at night.

And uh, sure enough, man, I'm, I'm the the assistant shift commander.

At this point I'd promote it.

This is, I'm probably four years in at this time, this kind of later in my career.

And uh, ada county comes in because this is a felony right like you're hooking up with, it's a, it's a sex crime yeah ada county's there.

She'd been referred for criminal charges for this hooking up with this inmate.

And so, as I'm trying to remember if it was as she was coming or as she was leaving, but it was one of the two is as she was coming in for work, as she was leaving for leaving work.

But, um, we grab her and pull her aside and and she goes into this room.

She's talking to the warden, ada county and, and one other person, uh, like a deputy warden or something I'm like in the room next to it, in the lobby, and I see him going and I already know what's happening, and and so they tell her, like hey, you're going to be arrested, we're, we're taking you out in handcuffs, um, so we're going to give you a minute to, you know, remove your belt and all your gear and stuff, and then, like, you're going out in handcuffs, out the front door and so the warden steps out and, and ada county steps out, the sheriff steps out, and so we're waiting in the foyer and a couple minutes goes by, and uh, and a couple minutes goes by, and then we're like we probably need to check on her and just make sure you know, and go in.

She's hanging no, hung herself.

She was hanging by her belt just right there in the room and I'd known her for a couple, probably two years really.

She didn't die, luckily, um, we were able to in the process.

Yeah, but yeah, she, I mean.

So so when you talk over an inmate, yeah, so when you talk about like these things matter, like these are, this is serious.

You know, she's ruined her life, she made that decision, she ruined her life 100, um, and then she, she tried to kill herself, you know.

So it's like that's insane, that's, and that again, that is what is so hard about that job.

Man is like, okay, well, watch her, almost, you know, try and kill herself, watch her go away in handcuffs, worked with her for a while, all right, now I'm gonna go coach my kids football team.

You know, like nothing happened, dude the correctional facility world is so crazy wild.

This is this is why I I love having these conversations, because without this, like people, people just don't know.

No idea, man.

Yeah, and it happened all the time.

It happened to women, happened to men, men with men, men with women, like all of it, the whole gambit.

It happened.

Because there's big money.

Yeah, I talked to a buddy a while ago and he was talking about how much money outside gang members would pay these correctional officers to bring stuff in.

And he's talking like to bring in a cell phone.

you're getting paid like 1500 bucks, 2500 bucks so funny you say that number because I was like, as you were saying, I was like that's 1500 bucks back when I was there for a cell phone yeah, and my Max was.

We were really fortunate because we had a pretty tight lockdown on things.

But when you get into those medium security facilities where guys are out, you know, roaming around, they're out on the ball field, they're uh, they're moving free about their units and stuff.

there's a lot of contraband flowing through those facilities that staff bring in they have, having other guys on the podcast and people that I've known that have done some time.

They say there's more drugs on the inside of prison than there is on the outside.

I believe it's easier to get because of how much ceos are bringing it in, the.

I mean, if you're, because it takes one time, like we said, and as soon as you're compromised, because these inmates have nothing but time to groom you to become friends with you, and then it just takes that one question as soon as they own you.

Hey, by the way, I'm going to need you to.

Here's a point of contact you need to get a hold of.

They'll be waiting for your phone call, that type of shit, which I'm all.

I mean fuck.

Hey, I'm all about making a buck Capital.

Capitalism right About capitalism but you got to understand the risk versus reward for throwing away your life, cause it's not just you're losing your job, You're going to jail.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, and um, you know, gosh, there's so much we could talk about.

Um, the South Boise complex.

It's called a complex because there's a group of prisons out there, right, there's minimum, medium, maximum, there's a women's facility and, if you've ever been out to Pleasant Valley, right.

So that's everything on the left side of the road.

Okay.

Women's max, medium, minimum, those four, and then, as you keep going, there's a huge facility off on the right.

Yeah, so back in the day that was a private prison.

Okay, private meaning it was Idaho's inmates, but it was ran by a private corporation.

Okay, the reason states will do that is because it's more cost effective.

Right, it's cheaper for them to contract it out to the lowest bidder, who then hires its own people and runs the prison and stuff, than it is for the state to manage it.

So they do that for budget man.

Idaho we had such a problem with overpopulation that we were shipping guys out of state.

Like multiple times I would ship guys out of state.

I remember one time, like going down, we locked down the Boise airport, loaded up an airplane and flew guys to.

We flew guys to Texas.

We flew guys to Colorado.

I, we flew guys to Texas.

We flew guys to Colorado.

I think we flew guys to Kansas.

I mean multiple states just because we didn't have the beds.

And so, as part of those like cost-saving measures, this private prison existed.

That private prison was I talk about Max being crazy?

No, that private prison was I talk about Max being crazy.

No, that private prison was crazy.

Why it had the nickname of gladiator school and that wasn't our nickname for it, that was the FBI's nickname for it.

Gladiator school was like lawless.

They got caught, dude, they got caught doing some crazy things.

The CEOs and like the organization.

The organization was falsifying like employment records.

So they would say, hey, we have 45 bodies on staff today, a full staff facility.

They're getting paid by the body, and like 30 people were actually there.

So all these posts were just going unmanned and like things were just not.

You know, places that should have had bodies didn't have bodies and uh, they dude, there was some crazy things, bro.

If you Google gladiator school, um there's a video that comes out or on youtube of a fight that's like 20 minutes where a guy, a guy gets jumped, gets beat up.

Um, the inmate just like smashes this dude, smashes him, goes, sits down like, gets a drink, has something to eat, gets back up and just starts like stomping the guy's head again, goes for like 20 minutes, 20 minutes the whole time.

In the background you can see the staff in the window just like watching, not doing anything.

Inmate gets permanent brain damage, gets a huge settlement from the state of Idaho, and so that that was one of the first things.

That kind of like opened the door to like what the hell is going on here.

Turns out they were doing things like like pitting inmates against each other at night where they would be like open this door, open this door.

Let the guys fight and like lives, like videoing it and like putting the videos out for people to watch.

They were doing things.

I don't know how much these guys got paid for this.

I heard from some folks that worked there they got paid a lot of money.

But there was this sex offender gang.

Right, as stupid as that sounds, a bunch of sex offenders got together and created this gang called yfs, and I don't know what it stands for, but we always joked that it was the youth fondling society.

And so the YFS was like um, they put them all together, you know cause.

They're sex offenders and they're going to get stabbed if they're in population.

And so they put them together in this unit.

Yfs guys are like out in the day room one day, just like milling around doing their day room time in this unit and staff these private prison staff rolled open all the doors for the white gang.

The area knights on the on the tier it's like 32 white dudes and this was all pre-planned, right.

So these guys come out with shanks and just start stabbing the yfs guys, all of them got stabbed I support this.

I mean, I'm not going to say much about this, but it was.

It was nasty, huge class action lawsuit alleging, uh, the attempted mass murder orchestrated by this, uh, private prison company like a legitimate, like attempted mass murder.

Oh my, um, how many dudes got stabbed?

17, I think it was 17, 17 stabbing.

And I had one of the yfs guys later and he was like, he was like it was unlike anything they'd ever seen, like from his point of view right, this inmate just being like, yeah, dude, we're just like out milling around and all of a sudden, here of the doors clicking open and all these white dudes running out with, like you know, rage in their eyes, ready to go stab these guys and yeah so yeah, I could get behind that.

That's shit, yeah, I mean, there's certain stuff where you're just kind of like, oh, too bad.

So one of the questions that somebody sent in I don't need to go through Um.

One of the questions was do sex offenders get special treatment in prison?

No, not at all.

I mean, the stereotype that they're on the bottom of the totem pole is real, but they're segregated, correct?

In most cases they are segregated unless they choose not to be.

But why would they not?

You're done.

Yeah, generally.

I feel that if we didn't segregate sex offenders in prison, it wouldn't be legal prison man?

it's not.

It wouldn't be legal, but that's that's my point of this is because if I'm into doing some shit with kids and I'm like, oh, I don't get spread, I'm not gonna get my own block, I'm not getting segregated when I go to prison, over this, you know 100.

If you're going to prison, you are gonna face your demons inside of there by running into somebody like I feel that would detour a lot of people.

It's like think about if we had public executions, like back in the day, and you knew you got caught stealing.

You're gonna lose a hand, you're gonna think twice, but you know you get caught.

Yeah, because you want to meet up with some little kid, the chances you go into prison are pretty high and you're going to get absolutely destroyed in there, rightfully so.

I feel like that would change a lot.

Like that to me in not at all things in this, the correctional facility, I find like that there's a lot, but that's one of them where you ruined a child's life.

Now you get like, oh hey, I don't want to be with the rest.

That, to me, is completely wrong yeah it's.

It's so tough, man, like we would run into stuff like that all the time where you have to fall back on, like my responsibility is to ensure the safety and orderly operations of the entire facility and the people here, regardless if you're here for a DUI or you're here for raping kids, and that is so hard to stomach.

And I remember people telling me when I got there, like under no circumstance find out what someone did to get here, don't read about their file, don't read about their case, don't ask them like, don't find out, because when you do, you're going to want to start hurting people and, like, when you see the opportunity, you're going to take it.

I would be one of those crush offs.

I was every chance I got like what's this chump in here for?

Oh, you know, I remember one time.

I remember one time, uh, there was this guy that I was kind of like he seems pretty normal, like he.

He like he'd always talked to me about football, he'd like you know, we would chat it up just whenever and, and he was fairly normal and I would do these things when I was, when I became a Sergeant, I was helping out with these things called like segregation reviews finding out like why are you in lockdown, why are you in max?

And like, what are you doing to get out?

Like when's a good time for you to be released back in the population?

And so I was doing this one review and I'm sitting there and I'm like what's up, man, you know.

And I'm just talking.

I just talked to people like like this right, it's very normal, like what's up, man, hey, how's it going?

You know Like, when are we going to get you out of here?

I don't know Like what was it?

And I'm like what got you in here in the first place?

Oh, I got jumped and crimes and I'm like and I instantly, I'm like shit, like you're a sex offender.

Really.

And I'm like, what'd you do to get here?

I should have left that one alone, man, I'm like what'd you do to get here?

He's like, ah, man, he's like it just sucks, man, he's like I ruined it all for this girl.

And I'm like, so I'm thinking in my head like, okay, maybe it's like a statutory thing, maybe it's like you know.

And I'm like, okay, tell me about it.

Like let's you know and I'm not doing it to pride, like I'm my desire in this role when I'm doing these, is like do you need to be here or do you need to be in a different place?

Because I need to have the people in here who are dangerous.

I don't need someone in here just filling a bed, right?

So if you don't need beer, get out.

So I'm like I'm trying to like figure this out, right?

So I'm not doing this to pry.

And I'm like, tell me about it.

Like, what got you here?

And he's like, yeah, man, he's like and it's kind of unfortunate Like I'm hanging out and there's this girl and you know she keeps walking by and I just like tempting me.

And it was just man, he's like I just wanted her from, like the first time I saw her, I just wanted her and I'm like, I mean so far, like I get that.

I'm like, were you like at Lucky Peak, were you like you?

know, like, but I know this dude's a sex offender.

So I'm like, did he rape her?

Like what's going on?

And I'm like something must've happened, cause like you don't just pick up charges for looking at pretty girls, you know.

And he's like, yeah, he's like so she's teasing me and she's walking by and he's like she had her shirt off.

And I'm like, okay, she had her shirt off.

And I'm like, okay, and he's like, yeah, he's like, oh man, and you know, she's walking around in her diaper, like that.

And finally I just, and I'm just like, oh, I'm like dude, I get the fuck out.

See, it's shit like that.

You need to go to gem pop, bro.

It's shit like that needs to go to gem pop, bro.

It's shit like that that I'm like.

The number of times it like as much as like the violence of prison didn't affect me, the number of times I had to listen to people talk about doing shit to kids and babies, and like hearing about people torture and murder babies, like, like, like you, that's the shit that you can't get rid of for sure, bro, I could care less.

I could care less about making, like, hurting people.

Like that shit does not bother me.

I get like I live with all that and I like I'll stand behind every single one, even the ones where I wasn't like 100 justified.

I'll still stand on those, but like you can't move past that stuff, no I've heard it all like.

I'm like hearing people describe like torturing and killing kids.

Man, that shit doesn't go away I'm sure it affects you even more now.

Having kids yeah dude, that shit's hard man that's just hard.

It's hard to then have to treat somebody like a human.

Well, mike you're not like.

You are subhuman.

You don't deserve to breathe.

A hundred percent and uh, yeah, man.

So like I get what you're saying about sex fenders, like they are the bottom of the barrel, they really are they, they're the worst, like it's rats and sex fenders tied at, tied at the bottom of the totem pole, man, and I wish there was something we could do about it.

Yeah, I think that's where a huge problem with our correctional facilities.

That's one of the major issues.

Like I don't know where it came into, like it makes sense to me now that we protect them because obviously our whole government is completely run by orchestrated by children and all of this.

So it makes sense that they wouldn't want to protect them, because anybody in their right mind I'd be like why I could see if there was a segregation where it's, and you could correct me if I'm wrong.

So I'm not a CEO, but there's a lot of people in prison that it was their first time ever making a mistake.

And now they're put away and then they're in a maximum facility.

They heat of the moment pat.

Whatever it may be right, it doesn't mean that person is a murderer, I don't agree more.

And he's just out here murdering people.

Yeah, there's shit dui of your circumstance, right one and done right and they're in and.

But then that person's now living in gen pop dealing with killers that are walking those those floors every day.

But then you have some dude that's getting off for kids and has ruined how many children's lives, like destroyed an innocent person's life, and now he gets segregated because of that.

That to me, makes fuck zero sense.

Like, make that make sense.

It should you go to prison?

It should just be prison, yeah, unless you have to go to solitary confinement because you're a horrible person in prison and you have to separate those people because they're problems.

Other than that, there should be no segregation and it.

I've never understood that.

That to me.

Because guess what, when that baby's walking around in a diaper and that dude's got the urge, you can be like I'm gonna get shanked the first fucking 10 minutes I walk in that prison.

Think about how many dudes that would.

How many people would think twice knowing you're seeing it on the news, you get to hear about it constantly.

Yeah, well, because you.

Good luck in prison.

There's no good luck in prison for pedophiles, because they're protected, yeah, and it just yeah and I mean they're safe.

They're safe, they it does take.

It's interesting because if the staff slip up one time, it takes it takes this big of a slip up and and they will get what's coming to them Right, it does happen Right.

Big of a slip up and and they will get what's coming to them right, it does happen right.

It takes one movement where a sex offender crosses paths with someone in gp, how it's on, how okay.

How often does that get set up?

I need to figure out what the statute of limitations is before I say some things in the past 10 years.

In your opinion, it happens.

Yeah, I, I, if I was a ceo, I would one.

This is why I can't be a cop, I can't be border patrol or a ceo, because I would be.

I would be the statistic numbers of being corrupted, right.

I just yeah, I know who I am.

Yeah, people are like what the fuck?

But I would, 100%.

I would be befriending some killing motherfuckers in there and be like hey, tomorrow dude's gonna walk by.

Yeah, it would be just-.

That's how I would operate.

It'd just be crazy if, like, your door got popped open while this guy was like on the phone in the day room.

Like it would just be crazy if that happened, right.

So it does.

Okay, that makes me feel a little better, but it's not enough that's why I told people like brian kohlberger will get his at some point, he'll get his idaho killer yeah, yeah, you hear how he's complaining now.

Yeah, he'll get it.

He's being harassed in prison.

Well, you murdered a bunch of college children like I was someone.

I get asked about that all the time.

Yeah, there's a hierarchy, right.

It's like when you butcher innocent borderline children butcher is the correct word Like there's a hierarchy and you're not at the top Like they, and it's a couple.

I think it's a couple of things, right, I'm not there anymore, so I don't know for sure but like, these inmates are from Idaho.

Some of them probably have siblings that go to University of Idaho.

Some of them probably grew up in Moscow.

Some of them, their parents live in Moscow.

Right, like this is something that we all felt in Idaho.

And like you think those inmates are just gonna be like eh, like it's fine, like no, no, like that guy man, what's happening is called a bang out.

That's like the term for it, right, A bang out.

And those guys are making a statement that we do not want you here, you are not welcome here.

Yes, you're an inmate, but you're not one of us, and they're going to make that guy's life hell and they're not going to stop, and when he gets moved and go somewhere else, they're going to bang him out too.

Nobody wants that guy living with them.

He's going to have two, one of two things are going to happen.

He's going to become protective custody and go live with sex offenders, right, because the sex offenders are going to be like ah, like you're one of us, right, he's going to go live with them, which whatever, or two, he's going to commit suicide or he gets caught.

I, I, I mean he will get caught at some point.

He a hundred percent will.

But for now, I guarantee you, the security around him is so tight.

Although I I mean national news, there's no way he can be touched right now.

He is.

I'm sure it'll happen.

I think he's, I think he kills himself.

I genuinely do way he can be touched.

Right now he is.

I'm sure it'll happen.

I think he's years.

I think he kills himself.

I genuinely should.

That's the only, that's the only way out for him.

I hate to say that it, but when it comes to the way he butchered murder in general, like for out of that wasn't out of.

Like I walked in, caught my wife, oh, fucking hell broke.

Yes, that was premeditated, that.

And sex offenders like there's yeah done, bro and and and these like what we're describing, like what they're doing is you know, those doors weigh 250 pounds and they're steel like big, thick, heavy doors.

When you have 31 inmates on the tier, mule kicking those doors, it is deafening, like you can't.

You and me couldn't even have a conversation.

It's so loud and it just is bang, bang, bang and it doesn't stop.

All 31 of them They'll kick their doors to their feet, break Like they do not.

They will bang that dude out forever and while that's like when they stop for staff coming on the tier or for chow or whatever people will be in the vent or for chow or whatever people will be in the vent just like that's what I saw yourself Like.

People cause the vents are all connected right To these pipe chases.

People will be in his vent telling him like, kill yourself.

If you don't do it, we will do it Like, and they will not stop.

It'll be 24 hours a day.

He'll be trying to sleep.

People will be telling him to kill himself.

People will start trying to fish razor blades under his door to do it like they.

They will make that guy's life hell, rightfully so.

You have to be the bottom of the barrel, scum, to be hated in prison, oh yeah yeah, truly think it's insane.

Yeah, you're amongst the worst and everyone hates you so in prison all the the just yeah scum, yeah pedos yeah to the kingpin running it whatever, yeah how many of those dudes are legitimately just good people?

Man, I I struggle with this question because all of my prison time was with the shitheads okay right, so I have a very.

I have a very skewed view on prison, completely.

If you were to ask the average, he would probably tell you 80 to 90% is is like just normal guys, guys that victim of circumstance, whatever.

Yeah, you know my opinion.

I spent all my time in the shit and so to me I'm like, if you were to say like, oh, can people change in prison?

I'd probably tell you no, I'd probably tell you no.

I'd probably tell you like, no, like those guys that I interacted with, you got to think, man, um, there's about 450 people at IMSI.

About 50 of those 50 to 60 are workers.

I had the 390 worst people in the state of Idaho going back 35 years that you can think of.

The worst.

Yeah, all concentrated into one building and that's all I dealt with.

So, no, I have a very jaded view, for sure I can understand that.

So as a CEO, then you didn't max right Most of your time.

Do correctional officers actually run the prison or do the inmates from the prison?

in in max.

The.

The staff run that prison.

Okay, yeah, it's that.

That baby is locked down.

You hear it?

You hear some of these prisons and I hear stories about how inmates are calling shots.

Yeah, they'll go to the ceos.

Hey, this is the shit's going down.

I mean, mean, do you hear about?

I mean you've you obviously have known that stuff right, yeah, of course.

And and I, as I got, as I got to the point where there was mutual respect with me and the inmate population, yeah, those conversations can happen and they did happen, right.

So like I remember one time being in B block like that heavy secure unit and one of the big shot collar dudes from from the Aryan Knights was like hey man, come here.

And I walk over to his cell and he's like can you and me have a chat off the tier?

And I'm like sure.

You know, would I do that for like a normal dude?

No, I'd be like, screw you, dude, you can talk to me through the door Like everybody else I don, but this guy, I was like you know what?

Sure, because I know that if I tell you to go pound sand, at a single request from you, I'm going to have 16 dudes in this unit cover up their windows, and also now we're doing like 16 cell extractions, and so there's a give take.

Yeah, there's a give take, right?

So cause I know, like if I ruin this, if I, if I tell this guy, no, you're a pussy, like I'm not doing it, all of a sudden Now my day's ruined because for the next eight hours we're going to be dealing with nothing, but shit sticks Right.

So I'm like, yeah, dude, I lock him up, I pull him off the tier, put him out in the rec yard.

I'm like, what's up?

He's like you is it this dude?

I'm like what's he doing?

Man and night.

He's coming through and and he takes his flashlight and he bangs on our window like on the actual glass.

He like he bangs on it and then he shines his light right in our eyes.

He's like he wakes us up and then he, freaking, hits us with the high beams.

He's like he's got to knock that shit off or we're going to get him.

And I'm like, all right that it, that's it, all right.

I'll talk to him.

Okay, so you just earn respect from that dude right there.

Yeah, so then all the guys that he's technically controlling I'm not saying you're protected, but they're not going to fuck with you if you're helping them in a way.

Right, and that's what I'm saying.

That was one of those things I had to earn that right, that doesn't happen with a new staff member.

That doesn't happen when you've been there a year, two years.

At this point, like I was a Sergeant, I'd been there for you know, three, four years.

And so dude comes in, um on the next on the swing shift, and I'm like, hey, man, like let me, let me just throw something at you.

Right, I know you're new and you know I was like listen, when you go buy a cell at night, be careful about what you're doing with your flashlight.

You know, shine it up at the ceiling.

If you shine it at the ceiling, you'll be able to illuminate the cell and you'll be able to see if a guy's, you know whatever I was like and just take that as like a word of advice.

Right, he's like all right, cool, yeah, thanks, man, I didn't have to tell him like, hey, you're about to get stomped out if yeah, but I'm like, give him a little advice and stuff like that goes a long ways, right?

So, yes, do inmates run the prison?

Not in the state of Idaho, but there is a give take for sure.

What's something as a correctional officer that you would turn a blind eye to Inmates, not saying anything?

Major right?

Because obviously I feel who you are, you're going to correct it, but as a CEO letting dudes cook, I mean, what are, what are things that you turn a blind eye to?

That guys are just I?

turned a blind eye to gambling.

Okay, gambling is one thing that will get you messed up If you get into a debt that you can't repay, which is why there's a no gambling policy.

You can't do it in prison.

You get into a big debt, you're going to get smashed.

But guys would do it like over fantasy football and you know I love fantasy football.

Like I get it.

I want to come in and like talk about the Cowboys and talk about football, and so I'd let people do fantasy.

Um, I would let people I don't know, I'd let people get away with silly stuff like that man, like silly contraband in their cells.

I wouldn't let people make alcohol.

You know I'd find alcohol all the time.

I'd confiscate that.

But like minor contraband, dude, as long as you're not like trying to escape or like stab me and my friends, like I don't really care, I'd turn a blind eye to some of that stuff.

I feel like you have to, though, because if you're that dude, it's just.

Those dudes get eat up.

They don't last.

They do not last Really.

They suck, dude.

They suck for us too, because they make my life miserable.

Then they're making all the inmates' life miserable.

So then they're taking it out on you.

Yes, dude, Exactly.

And I tell people I'm like, hey, I know the policy says this, but like, knock it off.

Just like and the policy are also sitting in their golden throne.

They're down at headquarters.

They don't know anything about us.

They're downtown Boise.

Yeah, and here you guys are in the trenches, yeah.

That's yeah, dude.

When I would see people break people down to policy, I just have it in my head like you're not going to make it.

You're not going to make it.

I feel like that's anything, because then you've got a mark on your back.

You can't, because what I was talking about, buddy and he was talking about how these they take apart the wall plugs and they would hook it to their metal table to like make like a heat hot plate, hot, okay, I mean I, I personally I'd be like I love shit, like that dude.

I would.

I would compliment people when I would see certain things, um, like people would make the most creative things and I just be like this is awesome.

You know, like, uh, there was a dude.

There was a dude I want to tell you his name.

Um, he was a leader.

We call him a heavy right, there's a heavy in a gang, okay and he was, I mean, probably one of the most violent dude.

Like he'd slit your throat if you looked at him sideways.

That was actually why he was in prison.

He slit a the guys throw at a party.

Oh my.

God, Um, just so violent.

And and he would, uh, to intimidate people, he would roll up his mattress, put it in his laundry bag and then hang it in front of the door and then box and kick box and do all this stuff.

And he would do burpees for two hours straight, Right and and shadow.

He'd do all these things to intimidate people and I remember one time the staff being like hey, he's trying to intimidate.

It's like we got to go and like bust this dude down, no more punching bags, no more of this, no more of that.

And I remember just being like when's the last time he assaulted a staff member?

Well, he hasn't, like okay, so what do we care?

Yeah, he's in a cell punching a punching bag.

Would you rather him be punching you?

I would like, I don't want to get in a fight with this guy.

Yeah, you know.

And so that's one of those things where it's like no, just like, use your head, dude, be smart.

When it comes to weapons.

Yeah, what are the?

What are these dudes making them?

out of man anything.

Razor blades are super common, so like they get razors to shave and they would go in the shower and they'd pop the heads off the razor and like pluck the blades out.

And so anytime you'd get a razor back you would have to inspect it to make sure the blades are there.

But every once in a while one would slip through and then you could take your toothbrush and heat it up to make the plastic like malleable, and then you'd stick the blade into it and then dip it in cold water to harden it.

So then you had this like handled straight edge, you know, slicing weapon, right.

So there's like there's really two types of shanks.

There's a slicing shank and a stabbing shank.

And you know, and that makes sense when you start thinking about like oh yeah, okay, you have razor blades and those type of edge weapons or you have like a rod style shank that you can poke holes with, and so, uh, really common, where the razor blade, slashing style things and those are just nasty, right, they.

They make messes, they bleed, they dice people, Um, but you're not going to kill somebody with one of those.

You kill people when you stick them with a rod shank and you start poking organs and stuff and for those people would would break steel bars off of, like the wreck enclosures.

That was a place they'd get them a lot.

How are you breaking steel bars, dude?

You put, you put, um, toothpaste on the, so toothpaste was like a little bit of a grit to it, right, you put toothpaste on the steel bar and then you sit out there with dental floss day after day and just rub that dental floss back and forth on that toothpaste and just let it grind down, and grind down and would go out and would inspect the wrecking closures, you know.

But man, it doesn't take long and people would pop one off and then file it down on the concrete.

And now you've got this like six inch freaking widow maker that I've had.

I had one of my good friends, a staff member, where an inmate popped the lock off of his wreck enclosure and put it in a sock and so when they came out to get him, he jumped the staff member and almost killed him and put him in the hospital for a very long time with a heavy duty padlock and a sock.

You know I just watched a video of two dudes beating a dude in prison with with locks and socks.

Nasty.

Yeah, it's nasty, dude, cause those are heavy and the sounds yeah, oh, and then yeah.

The sounds of dudes getting locked like something else, honestly, the sound.

There's a lot of sounds.

There's sounds and smells that I can still like.

Every once in a while I'll smell something that I'm like, um, like, like not all blood, but like there's certain times where I will smell blood and just be like back in a cell where it's like someone looks like they've been butchered and I'm just like, oh my gosh, like you know.

Um and same thing with like feces.

There are certain times where I like smell feces and, um, you know, I, I remember guys would like cover themselves in their feet, be like completely naked and would go cell extract a guy that was covered in his own shit, and so you're wrestling around and fighting him and covered in his poop.

You know, like those smells, like it's weird the things that like trigger you back in that oh for sure.

So much feces Dude.

I remember one time we had this crazy guy came in and we put him into a holding cell and he was just like bananas, right, and he was completely naked and we left him for a little bit and there was a camera in his cell and I came back to check on him like an hour later and he had got a turd and he wrote out the entire declaration of independence on the wall and it was like all the way around the cell.

But what was so amazing about it is he had it memorized perfect yeah, that's what I'm like, but he didn't know how to spell, and so declaration like the shut, the t-i-o-n.

And declaration he spelled like s-h-u-n.

It's like declaration.

The whole thing was in shit.

I remember saying this is so impressive.

Who has to clean that the image, andrew?

So he comes in with a pressure washer and he's spraying it down.

You know that poor guy.

It smelled so bad, that poor guy.

That is like the feces things that is so common, dude.

I've seen people eat them.

I've seen people what?

Yeah, dude, there was a guy.

We had a guy who just like For $13 an hour.

I'm telling you this is the.

It was the best job in the world and the worst job in the world.

Like there was a guy who refused to poop in the toilet, Just refused.

He would just poop in his cell.

And I remember Dude, I just I remember one time, dude, he would just poop in his cell.

And so one time we're going around collecting food trays, They'd just eaten dinner and so we're collecting his tray and as I go to collect it, he's sitting there with a turd in his hand and he's got his spork from dinner and he's eating it like ice cream.

And so we joked that like it was a poopsicle, you know.

And so that was like the ongoing joke with him about just like what the?

hell.

You can't make that shit up, dude.

It's crazy, yeah, it's crazy I mean, there's crazy.

There's only way to describe it.

It's like and and this is what's so crazy.

This is I'm using the word crazy too much.

This is what's so crazy.

This is.

I'm using the word crazy too much.

This is what's so wild.

That's wild chaos.

It's wild chaos is people.

People don't even know this stuff is going on, right, because it's like when it's out of the news cycle it's out of their heads and they're onto the next thing.

The people that were out in the streets causing crime, causing mayhem, drive-bys, drugs, all this stuff, they're the same dudes.

You just put them all in the same building, right?

So it's like it's just a festering ground for chaos and violence and all those things.

And it's funny because, like I, usually back in the day, I wouldn't talk about these things, right, like I never.

People didn't care, they don't wanna know, they don't wanna hear about stuff like this.

I do, well, I know and I appreciate that.

So like back in the day.

Dude, I never talked about this, ever.

My wife didn't wanna hear it, like nobody wanna hear it, and I'd be like hey, you know, I'm just having problems with them or whatever.

And they're like I forgot about that guy and I'm like that's like, that's, that's it.

That's the thing.

The public forgets about these people because we lock them up, throw away the key and we move on, but they're all still out there For sure.

Who are the hardest people to control in prison?

Mental health for sure.

Really Not even close yeah.

Really Dude gang members are like whatever Like they're just dudes.

Mental health people have this ability to tap into something that you and I don't have.

It's like the inability to feel pain I'm talking like breaking bones and dislocating limbs and then like using this arm to like beat people with Like I'm not joking Like they have this ability to like detach from reality that you and I don't have.

I don't mean to laugh, but how you just described that was so perfect.

It's just great because, like, you get your shoulder dislocated, you and I are gonna be on the ground like, oh my gosh, like I'm out, I'm, yeah, I'm tapping out.

That shoulder gets dislocated and he's now like, sweet, I got a baseball bat.

You know I can whip it at you.

Um, like severe mental health is is scary.

It's scary, dude.

I remember the ones eating the poopsicles and stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, I one of the worst times I got assaulted.

I got assaulted a lot, not a lot, maybe like five or six times.

Okay, like the good ones, not not just like.

You're throwing you're, you're fighting.

Yeah.

Okay, like I got like like going to assault.

Did you ever fear for your life?

I would say probably twice.

Yeah.

Yeah, but let me tell you this story.

So I'm working mental health I'm still fairly new at this point and this guy is like spinning himself up and he's out in the day room and and he's talking to me and I can tell he's spinning himself up and I'm like I need you to go back to your cell.

Dude, like you're getting angry.

I don't want to be out here with you go yeah, and he's like, and he stomps back to a cell and he slams the door and he's like, gets in his cell and he's just like leg, I'm gonna get you.

Blah, blah, blah.

He's like screaming and I'm just like whatever dude.

And now he's back in the cell.

I'm like we, we're good, I care less what you do in there.

Well, he just starts breaking everything in a cell and I'm like, well, now this is starting to escalate, because if he breaks something that he could turn into a weapon, he can use it on himself and you use on staff, whatever.

So I'm like, oh, this is starting to get awkward.

And I'm I'm still in the day room and I look over to a cell and all of a sudden I see this red just go like splatter across the window and I'm like, oh shit, like he just like diced his, you know something?

to see, to hit that and I'm like, oh no.

And I run over to the cell and as I get to the cell, um, I, I can't see in, like that's the amount of you know.

So I'm kind of like I get to the cell and I kind of I'm like trying to see my way into it and right as I do, the window just explodes in my face just and glass goes into my eyes.

I get hit by something and I can't see, I like can't open my eyes and and so I'm like trying to do this, like force my eyes open to see what's going on.

And as I do this, I see more shit like flying out the cell window and I'm like he broke the damn window, bro.

These are un air quotes unbreakable glass.

He smashed his fan apart, took the motor out of it and threw it like a baseball and when threw the glass into your face, threw the glass into my eye.

So I get glass blown into my eyes.

Dude Eyeballs are bleeding.

I'm doing this.

I'm like spraying the dude with pepper spray, like trying to get him to stop throwing shit at me.

And this is on Christmas Eve.

So I get off the tier.

I can't open my eyes because there's so much glass in them.

I have glass in my eyes, my neck, like all in my face, my lips and everything.

And they're like you need to go to the hospital.

I'm like, well, yeah, it's a good idea.

And so I'm on the way to the hospital.

I call my wife and she's like what's wrong?

I'm like what's wrong.

I'm like I'm going to be a little late for Christmas dinner.

You know, this is, this is bad.

And she's like are you okay?

I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to be fine.

Bro, guy gets hit with charges.

You know, battery on staff.

He's looking like three to five.

And so we go to court and the prosecutor's like the prosecutor for 80 County is like he's going to be in here for another like six to eight years or whatever already.

We don't want him staying in Idaho.

He's got pending charges out of state.

We want him to finish his time and get rid of him.

So we're not going to.

We're not going to.

So this dude got to assault you and never got a charge.

They did what's called concurrent time.

I think is what the the verbiage was.

So he got the charge.

So it's on his record battery on personnel, no time, his three, his, I think.

He got three years for it and it ran concurrent to his existing sentence.

So when I'd see him out in prison he'd just be like I got away with one and I'm like you.

And when I'd see him out, in prison.

he'd just be like I got away with one and I'm like you.

That actually kind of screwed me up a little bit too, because from then on, when I would walk by windows and look in if something came at the window really fast, I would jump A hundred percent.

It would give you some PTSD over.

That shit Couldn't help it too, and like I would, uh, it would drive me crazy, dude, because I like I would know like the there's a, there's a window like that window's not gonna break.

That was one in a million, right, it's not gonna break.

And and inmates would like kind of jump in and I whoa.

And when inmates found out that I was jumpy after that, then they started doing it the fuck with me, and so then it was like on the week, then I got made fun of for quite a while and then, yeah, but that was one of my worst, my yeah, what's the worst fight you've ever been?

in a prison.

I remember getting in one where I knew that if I man I got, I would say in the time I was there I probably had 150 to 200 like force incidents.

There were a handful of them.

You have to realize in these incidents, like losing is not an option, right Sure.

And like out in society, if you get like slam a guy down on the ground and he like gives up, you give up and it's like okay, like we're done.

Yeah we're done In prison.

It's like if that happens and you give up, you're probably getting killed, you're getting raped, you're getting like all the things that happen are not good, but they're not going to give up.

And so you go into every single one of these like if, if I don't win in the fastest way possible, something really bad is going to happen.

I remember one time, um, I got to a point at the latter part of my career and and we can get this later but, um, the department started kind of using me as a hammer at other facilities and so I started going to other facilities and like solving problems.

And so there was this one prison, the private prison, where they a gladiator school.

The state ended up taking control of gladiator school.

It got so bad that the FBI was like you guys are out, state of Idaho, you are taking this prison back.

We had so many problems taking that prison back and drugs, weapons, disobedience to orders, like all those things, and so one of the worst fights I ever got in was got a phone call that staff on this one unit were being bullied like relentlessly.

But it wasn't, it was a medium security unit.

And so, like these inmates are out in the day room and I think I don't remember the number cause I never worked this facility, but I think it was like either 64 or 80 or something like it was a lot and these are like these are gang members, like active gang members.

This is a medium security facility but's like a dangerous uh unit and uh.

So staff would go out and inmates would like follow them around and like taunt them and then tell them like yay, quit walking behind me, like get out, and they're like no, and then walk behind them like, taunt them and talk shit and tell them to get off the tier.

And they're trying to run them off the tier.

So they started with like one staff member would go out.

And then they're like no, it's not safe, we need two staff members.

So now two staff members would go on the tier at all times and the inmates it just kept getting worse and worse and worse and finally they were like we gotta do something about this.

Like someone's really gonna get hurt.

And these guys, like their behavior is escalating.

So we get this phone call, find out what's going on.

And so me and two other guys go over there and my friend was.

This story is so crazy.

My friend was the sergeant of the unit and he's like bro, I'm telling you he'd been in corrections for probably 10 years and he's like this is the worst I've ever seen.

He's like these guys do not give a shit about us, they don't listen to anything.

Like they think they run this unit.

We need to send them a message.

And mike done, say less.

Like let's send them a message.

God, that'd be a great job me, these two dudes I came over with him and his corporal.

Five of us go out on the.

There's like all these dudes out in the day room and before I even tell the story, I'm not.

I don't think I'm like some big bad.

I don't, I'm not right, so I don't want to give people that impression about me.

I don't think that.

But I had just been in this like warrior mentality of prisons for so long that I thought I was untouchable.

Like you pick a guy, right?

So I go out on this tier and all these inmates now are just like squaring up with us, just like what's up, like what are you doing on our tier?

And out loud, I'm like to my buddy.

I'm like, hey, who are you having the most problems with?

And he's like that dude.

And he points him out and he's up on the upper deck.

I'm like all right, I walk over to him and everyone in the day.

I'm just like who's this guy?

Like what is going on?

I don't even work at this prison, right?

I'm like I'm a guest here.

I walk up and I'm like, hey, why don't you turn around, put your hands on the wall?

And he's like I can tell he's thinking about.

I'm like I'm counting down in my head.

I'm like you have a half a heartbeat to do this, or like it's on Right.

And he like looks at me slowly, turns around, puts his hands up on the wall and I'm like, all right, I'm going to place you in restraints.

And as soon as I put my hand onto his hand to like cause you'd have their hands on the wall and you grab on hand, you move it behind his back.

Soon, as I placed my hand on it, I felt him like do this tense?

And I was like that's all I needed, dude, it's on.

So we start getting after it.

So I take him down and we start wrestling around, we're throwing punches and stuff and I have in my head like there are 80 dudes watching what's happening right now to this guy.

If I screw this up in any way, they know that like they own you guys.

We like you are our bitches.

Yeah, I'm here on out.

Yeah, right, this is the message, this is the time.

And so we start getting into it.

You know doing our thing and, uh, I'm not owning this thing like I think I should like.

I'm like it's really regret.

I'm like six or seven seconds in, like oh, I might need help.

Like this is not good this dude can fight, this guy can fight.

Like he's been here before, I'm like I might have been a little too over, like a little too overconfident, but I, I'm like, I'm also.

I'm also like resourceful, right, and he's not quite as resourceful as me.

So I look over and I see the like.

There's like a railing on the upper deck and there's like a bar, a bar, and then this like sharp edge, and so, like we're doing our scuffle.

I'm like realizing this isn't going well.

I see the edge.

I'm like realizing this isn't going well.

I see the edge.

I'm like you're dead.

Pick him up face first into the edge.

Boom, wrap him up, do the whole thing.

And uh, and all the inmates are just kind of like, oh okay, you know, like message received, like got it, like we keep fucking around, like we're going to get it.

You know like you got it, like we keep fucking around, like we're gonna get it, you know, and uh, so we take them off.

And I remember one of the admin comes over later and I was just kind of like, so was that totally necessary?

And I was like, yeah, it was and he's like all right, I got your back.

I'm like okay, and uh, I talked to my friend after and he was like dude message received.

He's like they were lockstep from then on.

They didn't have problems in that unit for months Really, Because they knew that like Fuck around find out.

That's what it was Now, at any point, was I like I'm about to die?

Nah man.

But at any point was I having the thought that, like I'm surrounded by 80, really mean scary guys and not sending the message?

I thought I should say yeah.

That's scary, dude.

That's scary Sure.

Yeah yeah, sure.

I got to ask because every time we put it out there to ask questions, it's correctional officers.

This is always a top of the list question how gay is prison?

Less gay than what the media portrays.

Really yeah.

Yeah, most from my experience, and in Max it's different right, so I can't speak for other places.

These guys are Minimum, it might be one thing Okay.

Other places these guys are.

These guys minimum, it might be one thing Okay.

Towards the back half of my career, uh, max kind of started loosening up on some restrictions to where we started double selling guys.

We started having some general population.

Yeah.

And so that's when a lot of like the inmate on inmate violence started, the you know, and so it wasn't always administrative segregation.

That was about two or three years.

Um, I think in all that time, I don't know if I ever I don't remember ever seen a non-consensual rape like a, like a you know power rape Like I don't remember.

I guess your facility is much different because you talk to other guys and they're like, oh, dude, it's uh, now, consensual sex?

yeah, for sure.

Yeah, that happens.

Um now, keep in mind, there is no such thing as consensual sex in prison, right, if, if you see it, you have to stop it, like you're obligated um, it's illegal.

All all sex is rape, right, but that like where guys getting held down in the shower and pounded by six dudes and rape that way, not in your facility.

I never saw it.

Can't say it doesn't happen, though for sure yeah what's one of some.

What's one of the most violent things that you've, man.

I've seen.

I mean I saw two executions.

Really, yeah, how did that go down?

But that's not violent, right, that's just death.

That's kind of violent.

But like I was lucky because there were quite a few murders that happened when I was there, yeah, but not at my facility.

I never had an inmate get murdered.

I have plenty of inmates kill themselves.

Never had one get murdered.

Um, an inmate got murdered at the prison next to mine with a, a, a weight off the weight pile like a barbell weight, his head bashed in like a watermelon.

Um, uh, and I I had the inmate come in to max, that did it and just stone cold, no remorse, like he was trying to get initiated and a gang the gang he was trying to initiate with told him to do it and he did it again yeah, um, but violence that I've seen, man, I think it's all just like pretty typical run-of-the-mill stuff people getting stabbed, people getting cut open.

Um, I've seen plenty of people that I thought were going to die.

Yeah, I think that's a huge misconception people have that like the human body is so resilient.

Um, you, you have.

If you have the will to survive and the will to live, you can withstand some insane things.

And I remember seeing some people where we're like holding people's faces and body parts together to like stop bleeding and I'm thinking like this dude's dead.

And then he's like back from the hospital like six hours later, and I'm like having a conversation with him and I'm like, how are you alive?

This is crazy, um.

So, yeah, man, a lot of a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of blood, a lot of violence, but I never had anyone get murdered.

This is a great question from a listener is if, as you, being a CEO in a prison, if you got locked up, what would be?

How do you survive?

Dude, we actually had quite a few cops come through, really.

And those guys?

So what ends up happening is they go right into administrative segregation.

It's like straight into lockdown.

They're not protective custody so they don't have to get put with sex offenders and stuff, but right into lockdown so that nobody can get to them, because they will get got oh for sure that fast.

Cops, sheriff, like county jail guys, cos, like it's onsite right, and so straight into segregation.

And then what we ended up doing is shipping them out of state so no one knows who they are.

Yeah, but don't they check?

papers.

I mean, I don't know what happens when they get shipped out of state.

I don't know if they can put something on their paperwork that says something different.

But, like, um, I remember we got this guy from Eagle.

He was an 80 County sheriff and he killed his wife, if I remember right.

Um, I'm pretty sure they found her in his trunk in Eagle.

Um, and I remember him coming in and and, like he, just he was just a normal guy, just like, and we never had issues with him.

He was yes sir, no sir, respectful, and we had him for a couple of months and then he disappeared and I never saw him again.

But we had quite a few cops like that.

And, yeah, they get shipped out of state.

So I guess the question would be like the knowledge that you have learned from working inside of a prison what's the best play?

How do you survive?

How do you survive knowing everything that you've learned now?

I think the the joke that you always hear people say about like you find the biggest guy and fight him on the front.

That's the dumbest.

That is literally the dumbest advice I've ever heard.

Yeah, don't do that.

I would say so yeah, bite him on the that's the dumbest.

That is literally the dumbest advice I've ever heard.

Don't do that.

I would say so.

Yeah, I think the first thing is nobody's going to do you any favors.

Like favors don't exist, right.

So, on day one, find a place to sit, you know, find like, just just do the normal thing you see people do.

So don't stand out when you go to the, when, if you're in a medium security facility and you're going to chow, find a place to sit, if guys tell you can't sit there, don't sit there Like, just go find somewhere else to sit, find somewhere to sit and just do the normal things you see people doing.

But when I say, don't, there's no favors.

When a guy says like, hey, do you want my Apple?

There's no favors, right, don't take anything from anybody.

Don't get indebted to anybody on even the smallest thing, because that debt will lead to the next thing, and then the next thing, and then the next thing.

Um, and if, like, if people try to press you, you have to stand up for yourself.

The other thing is like you can't take things from people, but you also can't get stuff taken from you, right?

So there's this balance of like you can't take things from people, but you also can't get stuff taken from you, right?

So there's this balance of like.

If you think you're a tough guy, you're going to get smashed, like you know.

If someone says like, hey, give me your Apple and you try and fight that guy, you're going to get smashed for sure.

Like you know, and he's going to find backup.

Like he's probably affiliated friends and that's probably affiliate You're going to get smashed.

He's probably affiliated.

He has some friends in there.

Yeah, he's probably affiliated.

You're going to get smashed.

So there is a way to stand up for yourself and hold your ground without being pushed over, Because as soon as you get pushed over, well now you're a target and people are going to keep pressing you and keep pressing you and, before you know it, you're going to be paying rent to live places.

No shit, that's a very real thing Like people get extorted for money, for commissary, for all these things, just to live in a, in a unit if they can't stand up for themselves.

Really yeah, or you're getting extorted for them to keep you safe.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Same yeah, same shit, same shit, yeah.

And so it's like so you, so, so you got to walk this line of like I'm not a hard ass, I'm not a pushover, I'm just a guy, yeah.

Like, live in the middle, don't stand out.

Live in the middle, don't.

You don't have to.

It's not like the state of California.

Like you don't walk in on day one and have to choose who you're going to run with.

Like that's what's crazy to me.

Is that statement right there?

Because I feel a lot of people that go to prison max minimum, whatever it may be on.

Let's say, dude got caught with a little coke or meth, whatever right for then you go in and now you get sucked into a group.

Now they're having you carry out things for them.

Now you're just adding time.

Adding time, which I feel is a major problem in our correctional facilities and how they're so you carry out things for them.

Now you're just adding time.

Adding time, which I feel is a major problem in our correctional facilities and how they're so corrupt, is because as long as they have inmates in beds or make they're printing money, yeah, that's all it comes down to and I want to.

I want to get to that point because I have you what I have an opinion about that.

Good I definitely want your opinion, but it's like but we're not, we're not helping anybody in prison, we're making, if anything, the situation's worse, where I feel the good guys stay in the longest because they get caught up, and then they're just letting the guys that they know we're gonna a repeat offender because they're gonna be right back, and then it goes through the process, through the state, feds, whatever it may be, and every step along the way someone's getting paid yeah so as long as you have this revolving door of dudes that are fucking up, I feel owning a prison is probably one of the most lucrative.

Lucrative jobs secured in the world is being in charge or having a prison, because it is just.

I mean paying the, paying the correctional officers $13 a day.

Inmates are doing everything for them.

I mean it is the ultimate business plan is to own a prison.

You know mandatory minimums were one of the worst things to happen to do.

You know a mandatory minimum.

What's a mandatory?

minimum.

I'm going to screw up my timeline, but I think, if I remember right, mandatory minimums really came about in the 90s and mandatory minimums were basically like correctional lobbyists way of saying, hey, we need to assign a prison sentence to people to where, if they do this, they get this and there's no gray area.

It's mandatory minimum.

So, like, if you get caught with a pound of meth, the mandatory minimum is like 15 years, yeah, right, so that to me is bullshit.

Okay, mandatory minimums should be unconstitutional For sure, because it it doesn't factor in anything else.

Got it?

All that goes out the window.

You get your mandatory minimum.

So you could be a first time offender, 22 years old, you know, doing 10 years, doing 10 years fixed because you were, you know, driving around with someone else's cocaine, delivering it for him, right, which I'm not saying is good, like I'm not saying it's good, but there should be all the extenuating circumstances looked at, yeah, and um, mandatory minimums were passed to keep people in prison, to keep a certain head count in prison, and it was passed by these private prison corporations.

These guys were taking these contracts to run these prisons.

They need bodies in the prisons, right, that's how they make their money, making money.

So they pass these mandatory minimums to keep the body count high.

It makes so much sense, right?

So in the state of Idaho, you know, when we're shipping all these dudes out of state, we're paying more money for these guys to go out of state Taxpayer dollars.

It's so much money to send people out of state.

But it's like our recidivism rate is.

Recidivism is like when you leave prison.

If you recommit and then come back, okay.

Our recidivism is like, um, when you leave prison if you recommit and then come back.

Okay, our recidivism rate at one point was like 85 insane.

Job security, job security dude, with mandatory minimums.

It's a.

It's like a cycle.

This is in.

The state of idaho will will tell you.

They will be like no, we are doing everything we can to keep people out of prisons.

Fuck no, you're not.

That's the biggest lie ever.

Listen, when, when I'd started, they had just stopped using the term inmate, okay, the PC, like culture, was like no, we don't want to call him inmate anymore, because that's like derogatory.

We want to call him offender because they offended society and whatever.

And I'm like all right, whatever, I'll bite off on that.

So we call it everyone offender.

Well, now it's resident and they call them residents and it's like they're getting it.

And this is.

This.

All comes back to why I left, which we'll get to at the end.

I'm not ready to go there yet, but like, but like.

It's this idea that if we just treat people really nice, they won't come back Like, let's just treat people like people, let's talk, talk to them like how does that work, bro?

Listen, there are some people who the only language they speak is violence.

For sure, that's it and that's where they need to be and that's what they need to get.

Yeah, now I understand that, like we're all human, like I'm gonna treat you respectful, I'm gonna be respectful, you be to me and we're not going to have any problems.

But the prison at one point started doing this thing where we we shifted away from the when I had started and it was all this, like no questions asked, they screw up this much.

It's like face on the floor.

That was it, black and white.

Um, they shifted to this model of like kinder gentler, they wanted you to like put your hands up in like a defensive posture and you take a step back and you would say, like is there anything I can do to like de-escalate the situation?

like you're asking a lifer this question bro, I remember sitting in the meeting when they were rolling this out and just being like this is going to be the greatest thing ever, like they're they're selling it to us, like we're doing this, like cut I'm.

I'm sitting here listening Like this is going to be the greatest thing ever, because what's going to happen is staff members can be like is there anything I can do to like deescalate and like not get in a fight and the inmates going to jump on them and then they're going to call me and I'm going to come in and like right.

So I'm like this is great, like use of forces are going to go way up.

I'm going to be in the action even more.

This is great.

Sure enough.

What happens that?

Yeah, it was great.

It was chaos.

It was chaos.

It was the dumbest thing we ever did.

And it just got worse, a hundred percent.

It just got worse.

When I'd started, I think I was the that window getting smashed out my eye, when the when I got that fan motor was like the worst staff assault in, probably two years.

Prior to that was when my friend got stabbed in the neck and in the head.

Boom, boom, boom.

It was like two years like no major staff assaults, like yeah, people get spit on and shit thrown on them right, but like nothing major after window smashing and we moved this new model.

Now all of a sudden it's like oh, so and so, got beat with a lock in a sock so and so, got you know, beat with a uh, uh soap in a sock so and so.

And all of a sudden it's like is no one else realizing this uptick in like major staff assaults, not just like getting punched and kicked like major staff assaults, and nobody realizes that.

It's like corresponding with this kinder gentler bullshit model you guys are trying to sell us and it never rang home, never will.

They're not in the trenches, I know, and that's the.

That's the thing.

When I, when I left, I came back a couple months later and I did an internship down in central office, like at the headquarters and they'd had a a not a major incident, not like a riot, but like they'd had an incident out at max while I was doing my internship, where some inmates were out in the day room and they started getting spun up and the staff were telling them, like, go back to your cell.

And the image was like no, we're not doing it.

Like no, make us right and back in the day like when I was.

I hate saying back in the day.

It makes it sound like such a douchebag we're our dads now back in the day, no, but like back when I'd started, if someone was like no, make me.

Like.

I'd be like looking around, like Okay, I'm going to throw the microwave at you, I'm going to grab the fire extinguisher and hit you with it, like I'm like there's no.

I'm one guy on a tier with like four dudes saying make me like there's no rules, no rules anything I can do for your survival, I'll take out both restraints and just start, like Michelangelo, nunchucking people, like no rules, right.

So I'm, I'm watching, so, so they, they ask me.

They're like come, come watch the video of what happened and like kind of talk us through some things, like debrief it with us.

I'm like let's do it.

I sit down, we watch the thing and I can see the female staff member point to the cell and I can see her like go home Right.

And the female staff member point to the cell and I can see her like go home Right.

And I can see him saying no.

And I'm like pause.

And they pause it and I'm like, okay, right here, First thing, pull out, pull out pepper spray, start gassing everybody.

Like everybody, everybody gets pepper spray.

Like what about?

These guys aren't involved, I don't care.

Like they're innocent bystanders, sorry, but like punishment, we are, we are taking control of this unit right there.

And they're like, well, but they have.

I'm like, no, that's it.

Press play, press play.

Inmate starts chasing the staff member.

She's running away on the tier, running away from this guy as he's trying to catch her.

He then jumps up on a table, rips his shirt off and starts like giving the bird to the camera and like waving the staff saying let's go, like bring more people, like let's go, and I'm like pause, we had a like, we had a chance.

We had a chance when he said no, I'm not going Right, that was it.

And now look, 30 seconds later, all these dudes on the tier are like all right, yeah, all right, let's look.

Yeah, let's do this.

Right.

And now all of a sudden it turns into like we have to get these, we have to get these staff off the tier as fast as we can.

Like they're not, they're no longer safe, get them off the tier.

We then have to activate, like a planned response.

We need to get body armor, helmets, munitions, like we have to get shotguns, we have to get gas, we have to get all these things.

How long does that take?

30 minutes.

And then you have to spin everyone up on like this is the plan.

And then you get a guy who maybe hasn't shot a shotgun since he called on it at the range a year ago and it's like hey, here you go, shoot center mass.

Like if you miss, reload, yeah, yeah yeah, like gas.

Do you remember how to throw this?

Like pull the pin then throw right.

You know, like you're like talking through the basics with guys that maybe have never done this and it's like we could have stopped it right there, and that's the problem nowadays is, like you know, I still have quite a few friends that work there that were like on the response team and stuff with me, and it's just the same shit, dude, it just hasn't like the the corrections pendulum swings right.

For sure.

Swings just like law enforcement.

For sure.

Like police, probably just like the military too, right when you have these like ultra aggressive admin that are like no, like we are going to own this bitch.

And then you have other like it swings back the other way and it's like no, we gotta be a little more like with the times and kinder gentler, and it just made that job impossible.

Oh, a hundred percent.

What's one of the oddest or funniest things that you witnessed inside a prison?

I saw a lot of odd stuff but, like I remember one time we were doing count, so count was where you like walk around and you check all the bodies right, make sure all the bodies are there.

We're doing count late at night and I'm walking through the upper one of the upper decks and I I look in a cell and I see this dude sitting on his bed and it looks like his back is broken, like like his.

If you know how cats like arch their backs up in the air, he's doing that.

Okay, and it looks like his back is broken, like like his.

If you know how cats like arch their backs up in the air, he's doing that okay I'm like, I'm like what the like he looks?

like his back is broken.

I'm like, is he okay?

And I look and he's bobbing his head in between his legs.

I'm like he's sucking his dick no I, I'm dead serious.

I'm like, oh, oh, oh.

I'm like gosh, dang it.

I'm like, oh, I need to go like sanitize.

I need to go like sanitize my eyeballs.

And so, like I don't make a scene, right, I'm like I see it.

I'm like see it.

I'm like, oh, broken back.

Oh, he's sucking his dick.

And I turn around and there's a new staff member with me and I'm like, hey, he's got something he's talked to you about when you come by the cell.

And he's like, oh, yeah, and like, as a new guy, you're like kind of excited.

He's like, oh, he's got something to say to me, like OK, cool, yeah.

And so he gets up there and he like has this flashlight, you know.

He's like like oh, and he's like, what do we do?

I'm like, well, let him finish, you know don't interrupt the guy.

It was so crazy.

I was like I've never seen that before.

Just like sitting in his bed, just like I mean good on him but crazy days.

I mean that that's odd, that's you don't see that every day I was not expecting that answer.

Yeah, that's odd yeah, I've seen a lot of odd stuff.

Man, I would say so.

Have you ever come across like anybody, any high value people that came through?

Joseph Duncan.

I don't know if you remember him.

He kidnapped and murdered some kids up in Northern Idaho.

It's like a big national story.

Oh man, I don't remember when, but Joseph Duncan was a big one.

Um man, pretty much all the guys on death row at one point the big high profile guys.

Yeah.

Cause that makes like national news?

Um, is it weird talking to them knowing that you like if you've watched their whole entire court case?

or let's talk about.

Let's talk about executing people, Cause it's wild you were part of this.

Yeah, twice you got to be part of two executions.

Yeah, I'll tell you what I did.

Absolutely.

So like when I joined the department and I told you I found out I wanted to be on like the correctional emergency response team right so those are the dudes.

That's like prison SWAT.

It's like you're getting called in in the middle of the night to like squash out anything.

Right, you're doing all that.

Well, there's also a fire team.

There's like a hostage rescue team or a hostage negotiation team.

There's a warden's escort and execution team and I'm like what the hell is that?

That sounds dope.

Yeah, it's like these are the dudes who, when, uh, um, an execution is coming, they are like hands-on get the guy put him in the chair, do the whole thing.

And then are there like for the whole execution process.

I'm like well, I want to do that.

And they're like well, you need to choose between SWAT and executions.

I mean how often are executions happening?

That's what I said, and like we haven't executed anyone since like 96.

I'm like boring, I'm like not doing that.

Yeah, sure enough.

And then we execute two people, just like right after Right.

So, um, what's crazy is we had this unit and it used to be.

There wasn't anything out there.

So when the executions came up, we like retrofitted the whole unit, uh, and it's off the prison, it's like detached and it's off the prison, it's like detached, it's a detached building, got it.

And so they put in a cell and the cell was like full glass on the wall so you could see into it and just like a bad sink toilet, right.

And so when the death warrant gets issued, the death warrant is when the judge says like all appeals have been exhausted, you have 30 days to live, and then you're being executed by the state of Idaho.

And he signs it Right, you have 30 days to live and then you're being executed by the state of Idaho and he signs it right.

When the death warrant gets issued, you go down to the inmate cell, you tell him and then you escort him out to the execution building and he doesn't have a say, right, it's like that's it.

When he's out there, you have to sit with him for 30 days, that whole 30 day clock.

You sit there and watch him, like in shifts, because you don't want him to kill himself.

It's like you're not going to kill you, we're going to kill you.

You know what I mean?

And really, yes, dude, why not just save the taxpayers and let them just?

Bro, it's like that's.

The thing is like I'm tasked with your safety so you aren't going to commit self bodily harm or hurt yourself until we legally have a lawful order from a judge to execute.

You Got it.

So you're sitting there with a dude like counting down the days until he's getting executed, and the conversations you have with a guy, like it's one thing when someone dies cause they just like kill themselves in their cell, right, it's kind of just like oh, whatever, he's dead.

It's really strange to have a clock and be like you got eight days, dude, what do you want to talk about today?

Really, you're sitting there talking to a guy.

What's the mindset of these guys?

Have they accepted it or are they remorseful?

They'd been on death row for like 30 years by this point, right, and so, yeah, a lot of acceptance.

But it's just odd.

It's just odd Like that's one of those things, like no one can prepare you to be sitting with a dude about to die.

It's just strange, and like their rules kind of go out the window on a lot of things.

So like like their parents would come visit and the warden would just be like, yeah, let them into the cell and let them have an hour together of contact visits.

So you're sitting there, with the door open, family in there, as they're crying, sobbing, saying like talking about you.

Know, you were such a good kid and we loved you.

And well, where do?

we go Like dying within days and I'm just sitting there like another Tuesday.

I got football practice to go to after this, you know.

And so, as this is going on, they're now like rehearsing executions in the next room.

So when the execution actually happens, dude, what's so crazy is there's doctors from the community that are assigned to this.

They wear hoods, they don't bring IDs, they don't get their IDs checked.

They come rolling up into the rear salad like into the rear gates in a van.

You're not allowed to see who they are, you're not allowed to check IDs, you're not allowed to do any of that.

You just let them in.

They roll into the back, they jump out full hooded, like robes, everything, so you can't see their shoes, you don't know if they're men or women or anything.

Go in, they train with the equipment they place.

You know the IVs.

They do the whole thing.

It's we.

We use lethal injection and it was like a three drug cocktail, right, like the first one would um, like numb the.

Like numb you.

The second one would put you to sleep and the third one would stop your heart.

Like numb you.

The second one would put you to sleep and the third one would stop your heart.

And so they're doing the whole thing and and all this is going on in the next room while I'm just sitting there with the dude.

Like this is going to be you in a couple of days.

You know, wild, so crazy and uh.

So then when they actually do the execution, they have like the victim's families sitting behind one wall and the inmates family sitting behind another wall, so they're separate.

And uh, and then you know he's like in a chair with the machines and in the room you have the warden and then you have the, the medical staff, the medical team.

There's a false wall behind it with the, the wheat team, right, the warden's extraction and execution team.

There's a false wall here and so if at any time the inmate like slips a restraint, spits out a handcuff key, any crazy thing that could go wrong, they'd crash through the wall and secure them.

That's something people don't know.

Fake wall in there.

It's pretty crazy, but it is kind of like the movies in the sense that the warden like reads the death warrant, tells him like you're hereby, you know, being executed by the state of Idaho, blah, blah, blah.

Do you have any last words?

Inmate says his last words and then start the injection.

What's the?

How long is the process?

I don't, I don't actually know.

So on the first one, I had a really cool job.

On the first one, the first one, I manned really cool job.

On the first one, the first one, I manned this red phone, right.

The only person at that point that can stay the execution is the governor, I think the attorney general, and like the president of the United States, right.

And so they like bring this red phone in and I'd been here for maybe a year and they're just like set the phone down, plug it in.

They're like you, man the phone.

I'm like what do I do?

They're like the phone down, plug it in.

They're like you, man the phone.

I'm like what do I do?

They're like answer it if it rings, answer it and call us immediately.

And I'm just like, okay, sit there like waiting for the phone, ring phone didn't ring, and uh, and then like it comes over the radio that like as of blah, blah, blah, like you know, it's executed, oh, that's it and he's gone.

And then they, uh, the, the medical staff, right out the back door.

They don't check again, don't check IDs, don't check anything.

There's roll right out, inmate, gets confirmed dead by the corner and zipped up in a bag and out he goes, gets cremated and that's how they execute.

That's it Cause we just brought back the firing squad here, which I fully support.

You want to know something crazy about that.

So the, the firing squad in Idaho, it was in a separate building, right.

It was in like a single wide trailer and it was basically like a wall of sandbags and they would put like this queen, like you know, like this queen like tarping over the sandbags and then like on the floor and then basically like a kiddie pool to like catch the blood, and he'd just be like sitting there and then they would have the wheat team with the rifles and they would shoot him.

And part of the reason why we stopped doing it was because, if he's still living after the rifle shots, one of the staff had to walk up with a and this is written in the policy with a, I think it was a three 57 and put it to the like behind his ear, to the back of his head, and just and, and.

So at that point you're getting into a really weird area, right?

Because when you're doing the rifle shot, it is like what you see on TV where, like, nobody knows which rifles are loaded, right?

Have you heard that before?

I've heard that either like we'll do blanks or something like that.

So nobody is a hundred hundred percent.

Who actually you?

don't have to carry that on your conscience, right?

You don't have to be like I executed so and so I mean some people might want that right, but like oh, if it was a pedophile, I would 100 volunteer for after we executed the first guy, I was surprised how many people had like trauma that were on the execution team from just lethal injection.

Yeah, I was surprised because I'm just like if it was some dude see, this is where I would be have mixed feelings, like if it was some guy murdered somebody 40 years ago.

He's been on death row for 30.

Let them off I got a great story about this.

Let them live out his time.

Yeah, now some chomo that comes in there and is a serial rapist and diddling kids.

Where the where do I sign like I have no soul when it comes to that shit?

If I could take evil off this planet, sign me up, I'll, I'll.

I'll have my conversation with god later on you want to talk about, like the type of people these are.

So one of these dudes that we executed I think it was the second one His crimes were in the seventies, if I remember Like this is old, 40 years ago, right, and his MO was the exact same.

It was like all of his victims were in like a five mile radius of his house.

It was like wait till they're home alone, all young girls alone.

Break into the house, get a knife, stab them, leave the knife, leave.

That, you know, is the exact same.

He did it like four times in like a short span and over in Pocatello.

It's like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

And so they caught the dude, arrested him, slam, dunk death penalty.

Here we go.

So the warden's like do you have any final words?

This piece of shit dude?

You have all the victims families, their parents, siblings, all the things who are there getting the like closing chapter to this 40 year old story yeah, and the guy goes I, I don't remember the names of the families, but he's like to the jones family sorry for what I did to your daughter, you know can take it back, but like only God can judge me at this point, he had like had this, like rehearsed thing.

To the Smith family, he says the exact same thing Sorry, I did your daughter, only God can judge me.

Robert's family same thing, only God.

Blah, blah, blah.

Gets to the last one.

You know the Johnson family.

I didn't kill your daughter, can't help you, and just lays back 100%, without a doubt in my mind.

He killed that girl, exactly that one last time, just one last time, to be able to get one more.

And and now you know, this family, who came thinking that they were getting the closure, has this like either a little bit of doubt or this like and they're going to live with that now forever.

It's like one more way that you can torment somebody.

Yeah, they need to go those are the type of people we're talking about.

Yeah.

Like man, nah like they can die.

I know you were in max and all those dudes.

Those dudes are going anywhere, but did you ever as a correctional officer?

Did you ever as a correctional officer?

Did you ever run into anybody out in town?

Oh, dude, I yeah.

Oh yeah.

I thought I was.

Oh yeah, I had, I was in.

I was in a unit and I'll tell you what's so crazy.

Yes, it happened quite a few times, but the scariest Quite a few times, Quite a few times, but the one time I was really like legitimately scared and kind of was like I might die Actually stems back in.

So I was in prisons it was about 45 days prior, had some issues with a guy.

We were in the foyer in one of the units and he started getting spun up and he took off after one of my friends to go attack him.

I'm standing kind of just like bladed off of the edge of him, you know, and I see him take off and I reach out and I grab him by the horse collar and pull him down and we get into a scuffle.

Well, in the scuffle I busted his ribs.

I went to knee him and I was aiming for his thigh and I need him in the ribs and busted his ribs.

And so I didn't know he had 45 days left.

I had no idea.

And so he goes back.

You know, we scare him to all the things and he goes back to sell every single day.

When I walked by a cell from then on, it was like I have 44 more days and I'm coming to your house, I'm going to like rape and murder your wife, and then I'm going to like rape and murder your wife and then I'm gonna murder you and you're gonna watch it and there's nothing you can do.

Next day, same thing, 43 days, 42 days.

So this dude's counting down the days and he's telling me he's counting down the days to you till he gets out and finds you yeah after and and it like it wasn't, like it was like a year from now.

It was like his ribs are still broken, he's still like unable to like stand up straight and take deep breaths and he's telling me like I'm going to kill you and there's nothing you can do about it, like I will find you and kill you.

This also speaks to how screwed up I was at this point in my life in prisons, because inmates would say shit like that all the time.

And when you're new, it's like oh my gosh, he's going to kill me.

When you've been there for a while, it's kind of like all right, like bring it on.

Like I'm not hard to find, like look me up, come find me.

Like let's see, like we'll do it.

You want to do it in here, we can do it on the street.

Like I don't care, come find me Right.

And so like we kind of had this like air of like almost arrogance.

I mean not almost, it was arrogance we had this air of arrogance, right, and I remember him saying that to me and being like I, we could do one of two things here, like I could report this and be scared and all the things, or I could stand up to him and be like all right, like come find me.

So he says this to me you know 45 days and I'm like, look me up, I'll tell you where I live.

I live off of Vista, like I I was.

I live off of Vista.

I'm like six miles from here.

Come find me.

Like I will kill you.

And you know that.

So, like, I'm not backing down from this dude.

So every single day, this goes on.

Sure shit, dude, I quit the department in August of 2015.

I quit because I was starting grad school at Boise State.

I quit and like two days later I'm in grad school.

I'm walking out of class first week, walking out of Boise State, and as I'm walking out, I'm walking out with two of my kids I just met and, sure shit, he's standing outside the doors.

No, at campus, at the business building.

He found you.

He's standing there and I'm like, I like look at him, my friends, and I'm like you guys need to run and call the police and they're like why I'm like, just do it, and I walk out.

I walk out like there's double doors.

I walk out the first one and as I'm walking out the second one, I'm like I'm either gonna get like shot, stabbed, like it it's gonna, it's going down, but like I am not.

Yeah, I told this guy to come find me.

He came and found me.

Like I'm not backing down from this.

I don't have anything on me, right, because I'm at boy stay.

I don't have a knife, I don't have a gun, I don't have anything.

I walk out the second door.

We make eye contact from like here to the this desk, right, he's like 10 feet away.

We make eye contact from like here to the this desk, right, he's like 10 feet away.

We make eye contact, and he just gives me kind of like a, like I found you, motherfucker, and I'm like let's go, you know, like let's, let's do this, like at boys state camp, like right now, let's do this.

And he gives me kind of a and turns around and walks away.

Just like a I told you I would.

Walks away.

Just like a, I told you I would.

And I was like I'm here and he didn't do it.

So, yeah, that that was.

That was the most scared I had been outside of prison.

For sure I didn't think, because that means he was.

He knows, he knows where you were driving.

He called me on it.

Yeah, he followed.

He was following you.

I mean he, he was watching.

Dude, don't just show up to a college campus and know what door you're gonna walk out and the thing is, I think back now as a 35 year old man and not a 25 year old asshole and I'm like I had no business walking out there.

Like why did I think I should have walked Right?

It was like I still had this prison mentality of like no, it's dog, eat dog.

Like this is a jungle right.

Like only the strong survive.

Like that's that prison mentality of like you cannot back down any sign of weakness in like your food Right.

Um, and now, as a as a adult, a man with four kids, I'm like bro, why did I just be like screw this.

Like I'm calling the police, like I need some help, dude, but like that just shows you like I was.

I had that prison mentality, man, and I got.

I feel really lucky.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was not expecting that.

Yeah, I can.

I mean, I can picture it.

I know.

I know his, his name that one lived with you for a while.

No, it like didn't.

And that's the other thing.

It's like I didn't think much of it.

You know what I mean?

Because back then I'm like this is just my life, like this is what I do.

Damn, he found you.

And now I'm like whoa, that was scary, that's crazy, that's crazy Bro.

Yeah.

I had people all the time telling me like I'm going to come find you and it like I'm going to come find you and he's like no, like come find me.

He found me.

Found me at Boise state.

I told him I lived off of Vista right, which I did.

I lived right off of Vista.

If you think about it, if you drive down Vista, you drop down below the train Depot in Boise state's right there it's like two miles from my house.

So he probably found me at my house on Vista, found that I went to school and waited for me.

That was lucky.

That wasn't my best choice.

No, yeah, we all have those moments that's crazy, man damn crazy.

Yeah, that's, I hadn't I.

I don't know of many stories where shit spills over from prisons oh you don't know many, I don't know many, I I don't know of any actually, like usually it's kind of like what happens in there stays in there, you know, and like people get out and they go back to their girlfriends and whatever, and like now that one spilled over, it's just crazy what is the public not understand about prison life?

or just prison.

I think I think what I just said about that like it's a jungle, like it's a it is a jungle mentality you have to leave everything you know about living in the real world behind and adopting this mentality of like weakness.

There is no room for weakness, especially as a CEO Like you cannot show weakness Even if you're scared, like you got to do it, scared.

You get labeled a bitch Like that's yeah and then it's over.

Like you might as well just quit.

Right, I don't think a lot of people understand the term bitch.

Yeah, same thing like a punk.

Punk's another one.

Punk's another one.

I said that one time I almost got Called somebody a punk.

I didn't know I was new, I almost got my shit kicked in, dude yeah.

I mean because you think about it Once you get labeled a punk bitch, whatever, I mean punk probably being the biggest one.

Yeah, because you're done.

Punk is basically saying, like you cannot like people rape you and take advantage of you and you can't do anything about it.

Like that's what a punk is yeah and so if you call someone a punk, you're basically saying like you're a simp, you're yeah, like you're getting, you're so weak that like men hold you down and rape you and you called somebody a punk.

I didn't know, I was just like in, like common, just on the street, it's nothing to be like.

That dude's such a punk dude, you know, like those punk kids.

And I referred to an inmate.

I was talking to a laundry worker and he we were talking about what the inmate I was talking to was our janitor.

And I was just like, oh yeah, he's such a little punk sometimes.

And he was just like I'm gonna let that one go because you're, you know, they were boys, right, they were like they'd live together.

And he's like I'm gonna let that one go, I'm not gonna tell him, I'm not gonna tell anybody.

He's like I know you're new, but like that's your pass.

And I was like whoa, okay, never again, noted.

He'd like he's like that's your pass.

And I was like whoa, okay, never again, noted.

He's like that's your pass, man, dude, that's.

He's a laundry worker, I mean minimum security guy.

Just like Still don't, you're still going to get it from a laundry worker.

When working max security.

These dudes are locked up 23 hours a day.

What is confinement?

Due to these guys?

Um is it a good or a bad thing there was.

There was a big push at one point to make administrative segregation unconstitutional, like a violation of okay, the eighth amendment, or um, the cruel and unusual punishment amendment massive, massive court case because it has been proven that it leads to, like, long-term deterioration of your mental health For sure, and I've seen it like scary, seen it Really when guys come in like caged beasts, you know like a lion, and they are ferocious and two years later like they're unrecognizable.

Just breaks them.

Yeah.

And so you start thinking I mean, we had guys.

So are you pro or we're against?

I'm pro, but not at the scale that we did it.

Okay, we did it with 390 guys, like prison wide.

Yeah, I'm probably pro, like 96 guys, like one block Cause.

There are guys like don't get me wrong.

There are guys that like any chance they get you're getting stabbed, like they will eat a sandwich over your dead body, like they just do not care, there's nothing there.

Those guys should be locked down.

But there were also a lot of guys that like I don't know, man, if you stab somebody in like a gang affiliation thing, like an initiation, I mean all right, you know, lock them down for a month or two and then back on the yard Like we were breaking people.

Yeah, is prison.

Is prison justice more effective than our judicial system?

Justice, that is a good question.

Um, I don't know, because the state of Idahoaho in particular.

They are making such a push right now to making prison more comfortable for people and so, like you know, they get these mp, they get these like video devices where they can like watch movies and send video calls and emails and like.

I don't know if you've ever seen the Instagram page where they like have these videos of inmates where they're like I'm so-and-so like put money on my commissary, yeah.

You see all these like beautiful women yeah, they go viral.

It's crazy.

I'm Susan, I'm like yeah, and I'm like what is this?

That's what I'm saying Like the state is making such a big push right now for that.

And it doesn't make any sense.

I don't like it, yeah, like I don't want people to be tortured, like I'm not for like we shouldn't be glorifying, right.

I'm like.

I've seen, I have seen people get institutionalized, right.

I remember like we had a guy one time who topped out his sentence.

So topped out means like you've hit your date of when you finished it and, on the way out, assaulted a staff member so that he could stay Right.

And what do they do on the outside?

Bro, what do you do when you've been in prison for 15 years and that's all you know?

Like you're terrified to go back and um and so that institutionalization is real, real, and when we make it so comfortable and so easy and they don't want to leave which the facilities want, because in this guarantee it's just what we talked about, and so I think that I think the right answer is somewhere in the middle.

Okay, um, but man, that's just above my pay grade.

Man, I was a knuckle dragger for sure do you, as a correctional officer, do you feel the prison system is built to rehabilitate or just warehouse people?

yeah, I think the, I think the state of idaho is going to do a certain amount that looks good to the public and to to the state legislature.

So at one point the state of Idaho gave out more GEDs than any other high school in the in the state.

Okay, so it was like on paper.

You're like oh, that's great, you know they're doing that.

They.

They make the state license plates, they have state fire, they fight fires for the state.

Like they, they.

There are certain aspects of things where, where good is happening, where we're utilizing labor and and people, we're teaching them skills all for there's a lot of that like where they're learning how to paint, they're learning how to weld, they're learning how to do these things right now.

You take that.

The flip side of that is what we talked about.

If we really believed that we were trying to rehabilitate and get people out, we wouldn't keep violating people's not violating parole, denying people's parole, we wouldn't keep tagging on like dude.

We were just I just think about, like some of the people I had in there you know, 390 maximum security dudes.

Maybe 200 of them should have been there and the rest were just like bodies.

Meanwhile I'm shipping dudes to Texas and Colorado and all these other places cause we're overpopulated, and then the state is asking for more money to be able to pay for this, and all while I'm making $13 an hour and I'm like trying to like how does this make sense?

Right, how does this make sense?

It doesn't to me.

Uh, and I, I'm not a, I'm not, I guess I'm not a bean counter, right, I'm, I'm a low level guy on the totem pole.

But it felt like the state needed bodies in prison.

There was a certain amount they would do to look good to.

The state needed bodies in prison.

There was a certain amount they would do to look good to the state legislature check certain boxes.

But outside of that, no, we need bodies.

Where do you see the biggest problem with our correctional facilities?

Man, this is a good question, because in the state of Idaho it's probably so different than California or Texas or wherever.

From your experience here, my experience, um, the staff turnover is.

I mean, it's so bad.

You know, I remember at some points like doing 16 hour days because I would, I would do my eight.

They would need help for overtime, which you didn't get paid overtime.

What, yeah, you'd get?

You'd get paid time off, so you'd work eight hours.

You'd get eight hours of time off, but the problem was we were so understaffed you didn't get to take the time off, so you're working for free.

I'm working for free.

You're working in a maximum security prison for free.

Yeah, I would work a 16 hour day.

Make that make sense, bro.

Listen, I would work a 16 hour day.

Get home, shower, eat, sleep for like five hours, wake up, turn out, come back.

Oh, we need to hold you over again.

Work a 12 hour day.

It's like the burnout is insane, the pay is stupid.

People were making more money going to work at like Chick-fil-A 100%, yeah, so like, who wants to do this?

And I always tell people like I know that cops have had a really bad go of things in the last few years, but like there's still a lot of support for police, right, there's like the thin blue line, there's all these like cops eat free and cops get a discount on cop blah, blah, blah cops, which is great.

Like they have a impossible job.

Nobody gives a shit about corrections officers and I'm not taking anything away from police but like maybe five to 10% of police interactions are with scary bad guys.

I don't know I'm pulling that out of the air, right, but like for the most part, most interactions are with guys like us, like soccer moms, like normal people.

A hundred percent of corrections officers interactions are with bad dudes, right, and yet, like we are the stepchildren of law enforcement, like when we were in the police Academy, dude, like we did not belong, like the, the patrol and like state troopers and all those academies are going on detention academies, like they laughed at us, they didn't want us there.

Like where do you think this stems from?

Because if and yeah, no fire, you're not gonna hurt my feelings.

No, it's the listeners that are correctional officers.

When I personally think of a correctional officer, this is gonna sound fucking ignorant, but I feel like it's just this fat out of shape belly hanging over his duty belt walking a tear.

That's my vision.

I don't know why and where this came from of a correctional officer.

That's the 99% man okay, so it's.

So.

Where do we I don't know why and where this came from of a correctional officer, that's the 99% man.

Okay, so where do we?

It all comes down to pay, right.

That's the biggest thing.

And I say this about cops too we want better cops, better training, better funding, better training, better funding.

That's the key to everything, because then when you're putting people on a higher pay scale, training they're held to a higher standard.

Then there's no excuse, there's no escalation of force and and beating the fuck out of some random drunk dude because you're pissed off, like you know you're about to lose your job, that it has great benefits, great pay.

You just have to do your job inside the regulations that you're given.

Yes, I think with correctional officers and maybe it goes back to the shows when we used to watch when we were kids.

You'd see this, this black woman, but, matter of fact, like screaming on a tear and just getting talked all, and you're just like what is this?

yeah, what is this and you're like this is you're they're putting a woman in a max in a any prison with dudes like that.

That blows my mind, and so it's like where where does it change?

yeah, you know, I I'll say I I do actually really strongly believe that there is a place for women and corrections, really, even in max 100.

Really, I'm very, very, very supportive of it really I am 100, not yeah, well, here let me tell you, and this Please change.

enlighten me on this.

This is why I am very, I'm one of those and I'm not going to try and change your mind.

No, no, no.

I would love to hear it because I'm not a correctional, I've never been in the same with a cop, but I look at cops.

I look at other positions military front lines.

I think we innately have different skill sets A thousand percent.

And so my like, when I was in the thick of it, right, I remember one day this inmate being like I was walking a tier, I walked by his cell and he's standing in the window and he's waiting for me.

He goes, I want to fight you today.

And I was like, excuse me, and he, he goes, I want to fight you today.

And I was like, excuse me, and he's like I want to fight you today.

And I was like this never happened.

I'm like what is happening?

And I just go well, you know what you need to do, right.

And he's like, yeah, and I was like, all right, well, you do what you got to do, I'll do what you got to do, I'll do what I got to do and I'll be back.

And he's like all right, all right, and he covered up his window.

And when I say cover up the window, what that means is like we have to be able to see inside the cell.

It's safe to get it.

And so he.

He was already ready, he already had like the paper and everything.

He covered up his window.

That's all right, so-and-so covered his window.

I said hey, give me a direct order and cover your window.

Fuck you All right, he's refusing all orders.

We assemble the response team.

Copy that.

So, like we, just we did it and we did.

We came, did the, did the whole thing, we fought and, game over, you put a woman in that exact same situation.

I want to fight you today.

She is going to be so much more receptive to like well, what's going on?

Like why would you like I get it?

Like are you having a bad?

Did something happen?

Like are you having a bad day?

Like is there something?

Like do we need, do you need, to talk to a clinician?

Like, talk to me, right?

That's the difference, would you?

I think that's important Would you see that work, though.

Yes, okay, yes, absolutely, absolutely.

What would piss me off so bad is and it didn't happen.

On the specific incident when I talked about where I was like the guy was like I want to fight you, but like it would happen, where, um, I, I did not communicate, I was like one direct order you tell me, no, all right, I'm out, I'll be back.

For sure, we're gonna like I, my pot, might not my policy, but like my, uh, like ethos was ask, tell, make.

Right, I'm going to ask you to uncover the window, I'm going to tell you to uncover the window and I'm going to come back and we're going to make you uncover the window.

That was it.

And that's a simple way to live.

Man Like ask they'll make man I would like I would leave.

I would go start dressing down like getting all the goon squad is what you call it.

Like getting the goon squad ready.

And then I'd hear over the radio like hey, so-and-so uncovered their window.

Yeah, like, officer so-and-so talked him down.

She's deescalating the thing.

Okay, okay.

And which, which okay.

So I'm like I'm pissed.

I'm like no, like no, we gave that guy a chance, like he can still get hit.

No, it doesn't work that way.

And when I and so we go back down, I'm like, okay, you need to back, turn around, get restrained, you know, cause there's still gonna be consequences.

There's still consequences for those actions of like making me leave, get a response to him.

All that there's still consequences.

But the fact that I didn't have to put myself in harm's way or like my friends, I'm okay with that, a hundred percent Okay With that.

I guess where my, where my, me I don't think women should be correctional officers is walking the floor with inmates?

Yeah, because if that dude didn't say anything to you and he's out there and he's like, oh, this month I'm gonna fight this dude today, how is she going to handle it over you handling?

Yeah, that's yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, if there's women there that are great at talking and that's their skill set, that's where she's called out of her little.

What's the control center?

where they're opening doors and all that shit hey yeah you got 10 minutes right or let's just go see that 100.

There's no arguing that the men and women have completely different skill sets.

Yeah, and that's where I think it comes down to me personally is your, your skill is going to outperform anything in that block for, except for communicating and de-escalating.

Communicating, yes for sure, like not even close, yeah, yeah, that's just, we're not built, I'm not.

Somebody says they're gonna find me, fuck, no, pop the door, like okay, let's just get this over with, is my mentality, but hers like bro, and then in prison.

But the caveats that, I guess, is I feel those inmates are gonna, they can feel, on a predatorial instinct, that they can take more advantage of a woman manipulating, grooming, all that stuff over the years, whatever, and you see it a lot, I mean, if you actually, you probably see it a lot.

I don't feel the most average americans realize how many female correctional officers get compromised.

That's another thing too.

It's like you're not.

There's so many variables that could go into it.

So I will not deny the fact that a woman is, will, out, communicate, de-escalate way better than any man can, and we all have our roles.

So, yeah, I, I will 100, agree with you in that situation, but like walking the tier with killers yeah, they're gonna look at that woman, be like I will fucking stomp your skull in and they said because they're trying to do it to you.

Yeah, and I guarantee you there's a lot of male officers in there that would not be able to handle that situation yeah, for for sure, and like honestly.

there are times where communication like should not be like, communication should go out the window.

You know, what I mean.

There's a certain point where we're not talking in my level of that.

My threshold was very low and and and the oftentimes the female threshold is a lot greater, and whether that's good or bad, man, I don't, I don't know.

But what I do know is that the level of staff assaults and like major incidents when I was there were pretty low.

Because of that, you know, I I remember one time man we had um.

A good example of this is we had a guy we got called to go to Utah to get a guy and he had just killed a correctional officer in Utah and so they were worried about his safety because they were like, hey, and this happens quite a bit, you do these inmate trades where we're like we have a guy that we're worried about us getting because he hurt a friend or something like, and they're same thing, and so we just trade guys.

They're worried about retaliation with the correctional officer yeah, so we trade guys.

So this guy in Utah had killed a CO.

He faked a medical thing, went to the hospital, took his gun, shot him by man and escaped.

Luckily they caught him.

So I go down there with some friends, go to Utah, go to the state prison down there, and I've never seen anybody like this guy dude he had.

He told me.

We walked up and I was like what's all this shit about, you know, and he was like I have like 178 like swastikas and like hitler tattoos.

It was like his whole body was like nazis and the whole thing.

And I'm just like.

Oh yeah, very, and uh, and so we walk up and we, we get in there and we're like I mean, no, we, we didn't take anything with us.

Like, no, no, like not you know very little in this prison, and that's important.

Because we get up to the door and we're like, hey, time to go, You're going to Utah.

He didn't even know, he doesn't know, Right.

So we just walk up, we're wearing all black, you know, and we're just like, hey, back up and be restrained, You're getting out of here, You're going to Idaho no-transcript, I want you to go show this guy how this is going to work.

And he puts the key in the door and I'm like, yes, you know, just like it's on.

And and so you like put the key in the door and I'm like here we go.

And before he can even like open the door, the guy's just like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Are you guys for real right now?

Like are you guys serious?

And we're like the the negotiation phase of this is over.

And he had never been talked to like that before.

And so he's like okay, okay, okay, okay, we're cool, we're cool, you know, restraining him, that never had an issue with him.

He had been so used to like his entire, his entire like career in prison of dictating the show, of like running and just being, and just being like.

No, this is how this is going to go, You're going to talk respectful to me, I'm going to tell you when I'm ready, I'm going to pack my shit.

You know all these things.

And we were just like no, it doesn't work that way, Not, not, not here.

And uh, and I really attribute that to like like the old guard, you know, when I came in teaching, kind of teaching us that Now a lot of people aren't going to like that, For sure, People are like there's a lot of resistance to that and people like people don't like that type of corrections.

But man, I tell you we didn't have a lot of issues.

Let's shift gears Um.

As a correctional officer, where do you see the most corrupt side of the system or where's the biggest problem in our, in our, prison systems?

I mean the.

The gangs are relentless.

That's a.

That's tough man.

Um, gangs are not going anywhere.

There's nothing we can really do about it.

Um, the drugs, the violence, the weapons, the cell phones, the contraband.

The stronger gangs get on the streets, the stronger they're going to get in prisons.

When gangs get too strong on the streets and there's these big crackdowns and they, you know, arrest 30 members of whatever MS-13.

Well, guess what?

Now they got 30 members in prison.

Right, it's like I don't know what you do about it.

I just it's like a.

It's a problem that you can't fix.

I think you can just contain, you can just try and keep guys from killing each other.

You know, we for a long time we'd had a policy of not mixing rival gangs.

It was like we'd let the Northsiders live in, wreck together without the Southsiders.

The Aryans, it makes sense to me, it's like we didn't mix them Cause we knew it was like it would just like pop off.

And so we let gangs segregate.

And probably two years into, when I was working there, they're like why are we letting these dudes dictate anything Like?

We run this place.

They can, they can wreck together, they can do all the things together and they're going to and if we have to start shooting people like we'll shoot, like that's what it's going to be, dude.

The first week we did it it was in the summer, I don't remember what years was like 2012, 2013 or something.

It was like the first day it was like a two on one, right Like two South Siders to Texas North Sider, and it was like the next day it was like a five on three, and the next day it was like seven on four, all of a sudden, like a couple of days later.

Later, it's like uh 30 on 16 and like we're having these like massive, like you know where we're, like, oh shit, like this is like I don't know if it's gonna work, you know, and uh, throwing ant nested with each other.

you made it work, though, man, really.

Yeah, see me personally, I, I would think let's segregate them.

And then you let out all of the Southside together.

Cool, they're all just out there getting their racquetball and all that shit.

Then you're just rotating games, but at the same time you're acknowledging their gang.

Exactly, and that's the thing and I get that You're giving them credibility.

Yeah, but them credibility, yeah.

But then at the same time, I mean, you throw a bunch of freaking ant nests in on each other and it's just going to turn cannibalistic.

And so you're, you're, you're just having a cauldron in the yard for shit shows.

Have you ever been part of a riot?

I have been, so we we're very cautious about the term riot.

Okay, group disruption is the term because riot it gets out into the, the higher ups route into town.

That's, that's no go yeah.

So, um short answer no, okay Um, have I been a part of some group disruptions?

Yeah, um, when I think of riot, you know I'm thinking of like inmates are, like staff have been kicked out, like there's no staff in the unit anymore, like staff have been kicked out Like there's no staff in the unit anymore.

Inmates have taken control.

Okay, and Nate inmates are um destroying property to the point of like burning the building down killing people.

Yeah, Like we're talking lawlessness.

Okay.

I, I.

There was a riot just before I started and there was a riot in 2021.

Um, but there were not nothing that I would consider like a full blown riot.

I guess you're right.

Okay, so I guess my question was have you ever been part of a large crowd?

Yeah, that's awesome Really.

So fun.

Yeah, is it just awesome.

I mean, what do you guys do when you have 30 dudes fighting on the yard?

What the hell is going on.

I haven't been a part of like those huge ball field fights, but on those like um, you know you're throwing gas, you know you're you're getting gas into into it.

Everybody's getting non-lethal, yeah, yeah.

All of it, man and um, that's just gotta be fun.

I mean that's awesome.

I hate to admit it, but like it's awesome.

It would be fun to be able to just have like fish in a barrel.

Yeah, dude.

And like I remember getting called in to one, you know, when I was doing the emergency response team, I remember getting called into one and I just sat down with a bunch of friends and started a movie and like pager goes off, you know, and go run in there and a bunch of inmates made a bunch of alcohol, got drunk, started refusing orders to sell up, and and so the staff are just like we're not doing this shit for $13 an hour, like walk off the tier and and so call us.

You know we all show up and and go in there with.

You know, gas shotguns, lethal, less lethal, all the things.

And it's like there's only one way this ends, you know, and like the level of force that we're going to use is going to be dictated by the decisions you make.

And by the time we get there, like the negotiations are over, right, so when we come out on that tier, if you decide to be stupid, like you're getting shot.

You know, and that's it, and uh, so that's the.

That's the fun thing about prisons is like there's no losing and you have any means necessary to take back control.

Um, and so I think that's why you get this like sense of overconfidence, that like I can do.

I can fight with anybody, cause it's like, well, okay, I can't, but like if I lose, my friends are going to be right behind me, and if we start losing, someone's getting shot, you know?

Um yeah, I've been a fun ones though.

Yeah, yeah.

As far as the administrative side and how our States run prisons.

Yeah, what are your, what's your opinion on that?

It's really.

It was really frustrating, because I don't know what it's like now, but we would see people get promoted and put into these admin positions that came from like freaking department of agriculture or you know some other state facility where it's like you don't know if it's like the governor's drinking buddy or like what it is Like.

People were put into these positions that had never touched a prison before, had no idea anything about it, and so they come in and they try and like enact all this change and we're like what?

are we doing?

This doesn't work.

It's.

I'm sure you saw in the military right event the wheel.

It's like this is we're working.

Why are we changing this?

Things are working.

Yeah, people aren't getting hurt like.

This is a win.

Now that's not to say that like you can't ever enact change, but like let's enact the right change for the right reasons and like put the right people in those positions and so, yeah, man, so much of like what was happening on the admin side just kind of ebbed and flowed with who was in the right positions.

Yeah, and I remember, you know, we had a bunch of turnover in our when it was.

Actually what happened is when we took over the state-run facility, when we took over the uh, the private facility, gladiator school.

Yeah, we took over gladiator school.

Now, all of a sudden, we have to staff an entirely new prison.

So that's like a new ward, new captain, new deputy warrants, new sergeants, new lieutenant, like all that.

Like how do you get all those bodies?

And we weren't going to take all the people from the private prison because we didn't know if they were corrupt or not.

We kept some of them, and some of them are my friends, like I'm still friends with some of them.

But like when that happened, that shook things up so much that I then got all new administration at max.

My administration at max came from minimum security and I mean, you go from minimum security where it's like people are going out on work release, you're handing people car keys and saying, all right, have it back with a full tank by four o'clock, you know, and they go work all day and then they come in and they're like whoa, whoa, whoa, like, what are you doing?

Like, why are you hitting that guy?

Like, and it's like, it's just hard man, it's a hard dynamic to, and sometimes I also kind of feel like it's not their fault.

It's not they're put in a position that, like it's kind of destined to fail for sure.

Um so yeah, man, it's tough.

What made you decide to get out?

What was your aha moment when you were done with corrections?

was like a combination of things, man.

It was like, on one hand, when I started realizing that I was the level of in the shit that I was and not feeling anything, I kind of had started having this realization like I'm in pretty deep, yeah, like I'm, I'm able to enact this much violence and see these things and do these things, and I'm able to do this and not feel anything, like this is not normal.

I had that realization.

My wife was about to have our first kid and I remember I was a sergeant, so I'd promote from officer to corporal to sergeant.

And I remember coming home almost every day with like piss and blood and shit on my clothes and like I remember being like I don't know if I want like, I don't know if I want this to be, the like how my kids see me for sure.

The like how my kids see me for sure.

You know, it's like people always talk about, like being a dad, like it it changes you right.

Well, it's like I was a monster dude and that's like not like.

When I say like I'll like, I always say like I will, I'll stand on the things I did, right, like I will, yeah, but that's not discounting the fact that I did a lot of like pretty borderline bad things Like.

I was in it and like having that realization that, like my dad is kind of this asshole who does things to people and feels nothing Right, and it was like I started having this realization that, like I can't do this forever.

At one point it's either going to catch up to me and I'm going to get caught you know, I'm going to slip and I'm going to get caught and then I'm going to be in some real either legal trouble or get killed or you know whatever.

I just didn't want that.

You know, and I don't think that's something I don't expect people to understand, that I really don't.

I like I don't expect anybody to hear that and be like, yeah, I get it.

No, I don't expect people to understand it, because only I know what I was doing and how I was feeling at the time.

Yeah, there's, there's nothing I wouldn't have done.

Like, and I'll, I'll tell you a story about that after but like there was nothing I wouldn't have done.

And then the last part of it was so there's those first two.

The last part was the administration had changed so much.

Right, we had the change from like smash everyone, and then like we need to communicate.

Yeah, well, the department was still trying to use me as a hammer when they needed a hammer.

They would get themselves into into the shit, and then they would call me and say like hey, go over here to different prisons even right, I'd go do something.

At the medium prison, I went over to the women's prison at one point and chased a woman through the desert who escaped.

Like they were, like they were using me as a hammer, like all over the South Boise complex, yes, dude.

And all of a sudden, I get a phone call one day from my friend's mom, who worked downtown at central office, and she's like hey, uh, you might want to lay low a little bit.

And I'm like what are you talking about?

And she's like your name is like coming across our desk like every single day.

And I'm like yeah, but I've been doing, I'm doing the same shit I've been doing.

And she, and she's like yeah, but like times are changing and you're not changing, you're doing the same thing you've always done, but they're telling you to stop.

Were they, though?

And I'm exactly?

And I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

They're not, though they're.

They're telling me to stop, but then, when things escalate, they're sending, they're sending me to go do it yeah and then I then I find out, like you know, in this conversation with her she's like dude, you have like multiple force cases on, like in internal affairs right now.

Like this is serious, like they're looking at these, no shit.

I then go to church, not like right after right, but like within this timeframe of all this going on.

I go to church and meet this guy and I'm like hey, I'm Austin leg, you know.

And he's like what'd you say your name is?

I'm like Austin leg.

I was like have we met before?

He's like no, but I know your name from somewhere.

And I'm like wow, like never seen this guy.

Right, like what do you do?

He's like, oh, I'm a um.

He was a I can't remember the exact term like he just graduated law school and was like training, like getting like hours in a law firm, you know whatever um for the state of idaho at the uh, I don't remember if it was, I think it was for the state police you're like oh.

God.

And so he's like.

So he's like telling me that.

He's like, yeah, I'm like working, you know, as a lawyer, getting my hours in blah, blah, blah.

And then I see him to get the big eyes like, oh, and I'm like what he's like, do you work for the department of corrections?

And I'm like, yeah, and he to corrections and I'm like yeah, and he's like okay, and then and he, he like, doesn't talk to me anymore and I'm like, oh shit, and I'm like this guy knows my name, like this is not good, yeah, this is like not not good, yeah, and it was it that was like the straw that broke the camel's back for sure, where I was.

Like I am now.

I am in this so deep and don't feel like I have the support of the administration anymore because of all the changing of the guard.

Like my, my days are limited.

I'd only been there for four and a half years and I'm a dinosaur.

At this point it had changed that much and so, um, I put in my two week notice.

I tell him I'm going to quit and, like the warden chief of prisons and one other dude from downtown come in to meet with me and they're like, what are you doing, putting your two week notice in?

I'm like I'm out of here.

And they're like why?

And I'm like what are you talking?

Like you guys are the reason why you guys have been sending me on all these freaking death marches to go do all these things, and then you're hanging me out to dry.

I'm not doing this.

And they acted like they had no idea, Like Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.

What are you?

And I'm like, no, I know about, I know about the internal affairs stuff.

I know that I have, like use of force cases that are being reviewed by the state.

Like I know all this.

So like, don't play dumb with me.

You're like no, you know what they said.

This is the best part.

They go well, what if we promote you to Lieutenant?

Then you'll get like a pay bump and like you'll be in an admin position.

And I'm like, did you guys not hear anything?

I just said they like completely ignored all of the stuff about like no, I am worried about my future here, either like from inmates or from you know outside forces and you guys are offering to promote me.

Are you insane Like?

This is crazy.

Make it make sense, and I was like I'm out Like I'm out out, and so that was it, man oh shit.

You made the right choice at the right time.

Yeah, man.

And it's just gotten worse.

Yeah, but when I let me tell you something real quick when I, when I had said that there was nothing I wouldn't do I don't know if I've ever said this publicly, but my friend who got stabbed in the neck and in the face, the guy who stabbed him, they had to move to a different prison.

They moved him to the private prison because different gladiator school man, different staff, different set of rules, all that.

Well, when we took over gladiator school and the state's staff were now in there, we we had to like, cut down on the contraband, and so they would.

They would send the emergency response team on these like super early morning or late night raids and we would run across the roof of the prison so that they wouldn't know we were coming.

And then we would drop in through the, the escape hatches Really, yeah, and so we would.

We'd cook it across the top is because if they know you're coming, they'll flush all the drugs and hide the contraband and everything.

So we run across top, drop in the escape hatch into the control center, drop down into the foyer that, roll the doors open and would run, so by the time they could see us coming down to the time we were on the tier was like 30 seconds, right, like not enough time to get rid of stuff.

So as we're getting ready to go do one, a guy was like hey, just so you know, this inmate lives in this tier.

He's here and I'm like, are you serious?

I'm like we've never had a chance to like get this guy.

And he's like he lives in cell.

You know were like okay, this is our uh kind of coming to jesus moment.

Boys, it was like like what are we gonna do?

You know, like he tried to kill a good friend of mine, what are we going to do?

And we hatched a plan that we were going to hurt this guy.

And I'm saying hurt because that's the way to put this we're going to hurt this guy.

There's no cameras, there's nothing, and it's our word against his right.

There's no cameras, there's nothing, and it's our word against his right.

Three correctional staff against one felon who's already battered assault on a staff member.

So we have this plan.

We're like we know this is gonna come back to get us.

We all have the same story.

We'll be fine.

Roll out there, go get past all the other cells.

His role's open, go charge into the cell ready to take care of it.

Dude's gone.

And we're like what the hell?

It's like five in the morning, dude should be here.

Dude's gone.

Get done, roll up the whole tier, search, contraband, do all the things we get done.

Like.

We're like talking to people who work the unit, like where is he?

Around 4 30 in the morning, some people came in and they grabbed him and they took him out of the facility.

They literally put him in a van and drove him out and drove around town so that we couldn't get him and then brought him back.

They knew that we were gonna get him, like they knew we were gonna get him to get him.

Oh, that pissed me off, bro.

It pissed me off so bad.

I was like that was my chance.

I now think back as a 35 year old father of four.

I'm like shit dude.

Like those are the things, man.

Those are the things like when you're that deep into it, right, and you're like not seeing clearly, you're not thinking about the big picture, you're just like you're in the jungle, right, it's like that is the jungle mentality, right, it's like it is dog eat dog.

Like he got one of our guys like, okay, we're going to get him, that's the law of the jungle.

I now sit back and think about that as an as a father, and I'm like, bro, I was this freaking close.

So many times I walked that I like walked the line, like there's people who would like dip a toe in the gray area, bro, I was like I was like walking on the black most of my, you know.

I literally there are so many times like that where I'm like just thank you, god, that that did not happen the way it was going to happen.

You know what I mean.

And like I don't know if it's divine intervention or what, but like I walked that line way too close.

It's scary when you don't realize it at the time and then years later you're like, and that's what I said you don't realize it at the time, but then years later you're like and that's what I said.

Like it should have been a case it's good that I'm doing this 15 years later or whatever it's been, because I didn't at the time.

It like was just normal, it's just.

It was just the normal thing for sure it's crazy hearing your version of it, because you've been so.

I love to break down the psych, the psyche part of it, because being just engulfed with killers, rapist, murderer, whatever you know that like you almost have to adopt their mindset.

When you're behind those, those walls, you can't come in and people might argue it and be like I never, because I we get a lot of law.

Yeah, I'm sure people say that and like I never had to and all this shit.

But I mean we're talking max facility.

Every single dude is in there for a reason and so you almost have to adopt go to their level of violence, their level of communication, being able to just connect with them.

This is a minimum where guys are just hey, get your ass to sell.

We have some little gang fights here and there, whatever may be.

Like you are just hearing, like your mindset and seeing how emotional you get with it because you get you got sucked in.

I see it now?

yeah, I see it, I know it, I was and you've had time to reflect and you look back on it now and it's like I was in the deep end of the pool.

I feel a lot of military guys get pulled into that shit, especially in these smaller units.

Law enforcement, it's that community where you're surrounded with just shit yeah 24 7.

Yeah, so your mind and your, you just adapt to it slowly, day after day.

It just they chip away, chip away, because I'm sure every correctional officer goes in there like I'm gonna make a difference, I'm gonna be the guy that connects and I can, I can, relate to him but then once you get night, yeah yeah, you're gonna come in here white horse and save the world and you're gonna convert all these dudes.

They're all gonna be christians and all entrepreneurs when they leave.

Yeah, but then you get shit thrown on you and piss on you every day.

You're watching a dude get his throat slit just because he's the wrong color and sat at the wrong table.

That numbs you and then you become not them.

But you start to adapt and I'm not speaking for you, but do it almost seems like it's that's you in order to survive and to make it last in a maximum security as a ceo, like you can't.

Just how do you relate to?

this I remember the first time an inmate said that to me it like hurt my feelings.

Said what he said.

That he said he looked me square in the eye and was like you are just like us.

Like you are one of us Super offensive, like you, just never have been caught.

But, like you are no different than us.

And he, like we're looking, like we are looking square in the eyes of each other and I'm just like I am nothing like you, Like I not no, like we are nothing alike, and by the end I'm kind of like fuck, I'm one of them.

I'm one of these guys you know like, and I remember I remember at one point having a guy a guy got smoked.

He was a medium security guy, got just almost killed for ratting on some guys and he was in the hospital and I got assigned to go sit with this guy and I get down there and I'm like what happened?

Why are you here?

And he's like oh, I got jumped and like knocked out, stomped on by like three dudes and I'm like damn dude, like what'd you do.

He's like I didn't do anything.

I'm like they don't do that.

No, they're not, they're not going to the hole for nothing.

Like what'd you do?

And he's like, well, and he starts telling me and he ratted on these guys and it was for stupid stuff.

He was like they were doing this and I went and I told the CEOs and they got in trouble and I'm like you're a rat.

I'm like you're an idiot dude.

I'm like you gotta let people be, like let them do that stuff, mind your own damn business, like that's not your job to go, you know whatever.

And I'm telling him all this and he's like you sound like one of them.

And he's like fresh, like fresh off the street, been in prison for like all of two months.

And he's like you sound like one of them.

And I'm like you're damn right, I do I know.

Yeah, you know.

But it's like when you start hearing those things it's kind of eyeopening to like I'm in the shit, dude, yeah.

I guess we could finish on this note, but is there an incident that sticks with you all these years?

Man, it's funny cause like I've actually never been asked that, but when you asked me that I had like a dozen things go through my head really quickly.

I remember one time actually the same guy I don't know why this popped in my head, but I think about this a lot the same guy who I had my first force incidents with.

Remember I told you he was a Native American dude came in just crazy and we had all kinds of me and him.

I don't know why, but like me and him got into it all the time.

He was always cool with me, like we were always chill, like never had issues, but like he would just spin himself up, and so he and I we were in it all the time together.

And one day he was out on the ball field and most of the inmates in Max couldn't go to the ball field, but he was a mental health guy and mental health guys kind of had a different set of rules right, so like they could go on the ball field.

He goes out on the ball field and he starts picking up some rocks and hucking rocks at other inmates.

And then he picks up a rock and hooks it at one of the mental health staff and the mental health staff were women.

So she hops on the radio and she's frantic and she's like terrified, and she's like he is like picking up rocks and threatening to kill us and like throwing rocks at us and whatever I'm like I'm, I'm like three doors away.

I'm very close, and so I, I get all the doors popped up and I run over.

I'm the first one on scene.

Uh, another guy shows up with me.

We get the ball field door open, get all the staff out, all the other inmates who are, you know, not aggressive, they're just like out enjoying the sunshine, and we get them all out.

And he's still out there.

So now he's out there, shut the door, he's by himself, okay.

So now we have it contained.

We like have, we have time now to put a plan together to take care of this.

And, um, some other people come down to respond to this and I remember he picks up a rock and he comes to the gate and we're on the other side of a chain link gate, so that's all.

There's like no solid door between us and he's he's holding this rock and he's like telling us like I'm going to bash one of your skulls in, basically, with this rock and it wasn't like a big rock, like we didn't give him like boulders out there, but he'd like found up, you know, a rock.

Well, in the process of us putting this plan together, we'd put a rifle up on the roof and the sergeant with the rifle had like run across the roof and he's now standing almost directly above this guy, you know, 15 yards away, like aiming at this dude.

And I remember standing there and this far away from him, as he's holding this rock and and telling me he's going to bash my face in.

And the shift commander is like, if he tell him to drop that rock, if he doesn't drop the rock, shoot him.

And so I'm like, hey, I think the reason this story bothers me I shouldn't like fuck this guy, right.

But like I think the reason the story bothers me is there were times like mental health sucked for sure, and it sucked because, like I knew that there were times when those dudes were doing things that they couldn't control, and the number of times that I have done things that I've had to hurt these people because that they were out of control, right, I mean a hundred times, and those don't bother me, but for some reason this?

I'd been in this situation with so many times.

Uh, him and I had like we'd gone my first force incident, we'd gone to blow.

So many times we had like we would see each other and just be like dude, like you're crazy, no leg.

Like you're crazy, I'm like I, we're both crazy.

This is, you know, that's what we do.

And and it was just like it was just dudes who like like to fight each other.

And now I'm standing this far away, knowing like I'm about to watch your head explode like a cantaloupe if you don't drop the rock, like, just drop the damn rock so we can fight.

Like, yeah, just fight me again.

And I remember telling him like dude, just drop the rock.

Like and I'm not like, as I'm saying this, I'm not like getting emotional, right, but like I remember thinking in my head like this dude does not need to die today, like I don't, like I don't need to watch this dude die, he doesn't need to die right now.

And I'm just like dude, I'm like I don't even want to say his name, but I'm like dude.

I'm looking at him in the eyes like just drop the damn rock.

And he looks up and he sees the rifle.

He looks back at me and he's like you're gonna come in and get me right.

I'm like, yeah, he's like, all right, he throws the rock and he backs up and he squares up.

All right, let's do this.

You know, door pops open.

We go and fight, do our thing, like me and him always done.

We started fighting and we get done.

We get restrained and I'm like, dude, you didn't have to take it that far.

You know, I'm telling this.

I'm like we get them restrained, I get them out in the day.

I'm like you didn't have to take it that far, don't do that shit again.

Like I get like some people deserve to die.

Like some people are pieces of shit.

There's no rehabilitation, they can get it Like I don't care.

There's other people, man, who, like who suffer from like that's just the card they were dealt.

Like they were dealt a card that like they cannot control and nobody cares about and nobody gives a shit.

And like this dude's locked up for the rest of his life.

And like my relationship with this guy involved around us fighting each other.

Yeah.

I don't want to watch that dude get his head blown off this far away.

He didn't deserve that and we were this freaking close man.

Yeah, and I've thought about that and it's funny because, like of all the shit that I did, like that's not the one that should stick with me.

It should be the suicides, it should be the dead bodies, it should be all those things, but it's not.

It's like the people who couldn't help themselves.

You know what I mean.

That's where I feel we have such a huge problem in this country.

And I see, right, like the other day, I see that Trump's cleaning up DC, right, and we're going to take all the homeless to these shelters and this and this and this and this, and it's like how there's no shelters anymore, there's no facilities for the mentally ill, and and I have this compassion for homeless because I'm torn between the homeless, because I feel a lot of them just want it's an easier life, but then there's this huge chunk of them that are just mental and they get zero help and they've just been tossed to the streets and then they end up doing something that ends up in your custody, yeah, and it's like nobody cares about them.

No, no, they're just, they're trash to society and instead of us, and I and I don't even know where it starts and I mean like I got enough on my plate, but let me tell you, the state of idaho doesn't have an insanity plea, okay, we don't have a state mental hospital for people like that, and so if there's one thing that the state of Idaho should do different, we need a state mental hospital for the violent mentally ill, because we treat them just like every other inmate and they're not they're not and man, I have dozens of examples of that and like it just sucks.

Like there's some people like, like I said, like there's some people with the only language they speak is violence.

For sure they can get it Right and I and it never bothered me, I never lost sleep over those dudes, but like the mental health thing hurt for some reason.

I don't know why but it did.

I could see that for sure.

They don't half the time they probably don't even know even when those dudes would kill themselves, like when when ad seg inmates would kill themselves, like all right, like one last one in a bag and ship them out like, yeah, I don't care.

I remember when, um, there were certain dudes that those guys are just funny, like they're, they're dangerous, they're kind of scary, they're unpredictable.

I got assaulted a lot by mental health dudes.

But they're funny, they can be nice, you know, but they're victims of something they cannot control.

I remember, like I remember one of them died and just kind of having that feeling of like we almost, like we as the state did him a disservice for sure, even if we couldn't have prevented it.

But like did he need to be here?

Like could he have got help in a, in a mental hospital, like a, a state run mental facility?

Could they have found his meds that balanced them?

I personally think a lot of it is a chemical thing.

Yeah for sure, chemical imbalance, because you look at these people and they're perfectly fine.

Then something happens in them and they're just, they just boom off.

Yeah, what caused that?

Yeah, you know and and I'm not in any words ever dug into the depths of that but it's like, how do we bring them back, like what can we do to help them?

I know there's no rehabilitating them without some major problems major meds, major therapy who even knows if it's even doable?

But I think we got into this point as a society where it's like, oh, he's a menace, lock him up.

It's, it's the easy thing, because the state's making so much money off of it.

It's going to cost the state more money to help these people, to help clean up their life, to help teach them anything.

And this is my biggest problem with our correctional facilities in this country is that it is and we talked about earlier it's nothing but a money grab.

Because if we truly cared about not the guys max or max like they're, you're, you're gone, but even even those guys like we can help them learn something, help them teach a skill.

And then you mentioned that I don't has pretty good programs.

I mean, there's other states that you're doing nothing, you're just rotting all day, every day, till your time's up, and then it just lets you out and it's like, okay, I got this dude, that's done 15 years, 12 years, whatever it may be, learn nothing except for how to survive.

And then now something get turned out to society and then we wonder why they're back a month later.

Yeah, my buddy, I had a very good friend.

He passed away.

Now, dude, he got put away for life, he.

He ended up catching a felony, real early news out of cali.

Dude, he got put away for life.

He ended up catching a felony real early and he was out of Cali.

Another night he was walking home.

One night these two dudes are raping a chick in an alley.

He starts defending her.

Dude pulls out a knife.

He ends up getting a knife from the guy, stabs one I don't remember if he killed one Ended up stabbing both of them Stabbed, one in the eye and one in the throat.

Defending this, defending this woman, he gets two attempted murders.

Oh my gosh.

So then they lost.

They put him away for life.

California three strikes, you're gone.

So they put him in prison.

He's like I was just helping a woman.

I fucked up when I was younger, but now I'm defending this woman that's being raped in an alley.

I catch two, two attempted murder charges.

Now he gets put away for life.

He goes to the prison system and then it immediately gets sucked in.

He's like I'm here for life.

I gotta, I gotta find my groove.

Yeah, fully tatted from eyeballs to toenails.

I think he was like nine years in, ten years in, and all of a sudden, one day they're like hey, we're proling you because california overnumbers, and they're like we relooked over your case.

He's like what the fuck do I do?

Like I can't survive.

I don't know how to survive.

He made it work and he's one of those six was a success story.

So he lost his life.

But it's like he had.

He got nothing.

Nobody did anything for him.

He had to figure it all on his own.

Look how many these guys come out 10, 15 years later.

They don't even know what a phone is, they don't even like cars or what.

Now I mean you've got to think for these people, like life.

The world stopped at that moment, stopped for them.

And then all of a sudden, imagine just this you're just fast forward 15 years and you got to fit in.

I know as a felon, as a felon, that you can't even get a job now.

Yeah, it's.

It's crazy to me like I commend the people that try to help and give felons jobs and when they come out and all that stuff, like they need that because then they just end up right back in the system.

But that goes back to if we truly cared for everybody, like we claim, right, why aren't?

I'm not, I'm sure there is, but why are we just tossing these back dudes, back to the streets, because the state knows oh, he'll be back in a month, he'll be like oh, you're, max, it's a little bit different, but how many guys would come, and then you see him right back.

Bro, and it was, it wasn't even.

It was that it was also how many people would have like father, brothers, like in Max, together, it was like family business, really.

Yes, dude, like I saw that so much, like I've never heard that.

That's interesting, dude.

Dude, it's heartbreaking.

Like your, your whole family tree is in here, like your, your dad, your uncle, your brother, like, and they're all gangbangers, dude, you know, it's just yeah, you're doomed man, I, you know.

Back on the mental health thing, I one of the rewarding things I I guess I haven't really touched.

I've touched on a lot of bad things, like there's some rewarding things, right, guys, severe mental health guys who couldn't even tell you what day it was like living on another planet, were so out of control, so violent, and we would get a judge's order to force medicate them, right.

So that means like same thing, like use any force, I don't care how you do it, but you medicate these guys, and so we would go in, wrestle them, hold them down, get a nurse in, put a shot in them, and we'd have to do that like multiple times.

Bro, I'm telling you it works.

Like we'd get these guys who couldn't even speak, like it was like the devil in a man's body, and then, three weeks later, you're sitting there having a conversation with them and they're completely like they're all there and they would thank you.

they'd be like dude, I know I was a shit and like you guys kicked my ass and I deserved it.

But like thank you, because now it's all coming to, it's all coming together.

That like they're realizing, oh, I'm in prison, oh I'm like they didn't even know, like they couldn't even comprehend their situation, that to me is rewarding.

I know that's crazy to say, like it sounds crazy, but like that keeps him safe, that keeps my friends safe, like we're doing a service to like the facility as a whole.

That's just crazy, man.

Prisons are so crazy.

They really are.

It's a it's a very interesting world and how it all works and the money and the corruption and just the lack of empathy and it's just that they're just numbers, yeah, and it's just.

It's just a revolving door to make money and it's both staff and inmates.

It's a revolving door oh my god, I think one of the last things I want to say, man, because I could.

I could talk about this forever I'll just have you back I I got a phone call.

I'd been out of prisons for probably at least five years and I got a phone call one day from someone one of the the admin and they're like we want you to go do a story for CBS I think it was CBS and I'm like what?

Like I've been out of this for five years, man.

And they were like well, like we it's about, you know, post-traumatic stress.

And they're like, uh, we want to like try and bring awareness to post-traumatic stress in prisons.

And I'm like wait, what, what are you talking about?

And they're like well, yeah, you know, it's like and and I, I just had no idea.

And they're like, you know, start rattling off all these statistics about, like suicide rates among staff and post-traumatic stress and self-injury and alcoholism and all these divorce.

And I'm like well, I knew all that was going on, but I just guess I'd never heard it quantified like that.

You know, and I've always been so I've always been so cautious to say anything about it because in some way in my mind I've always felt like if I bring it up, either in talking about myself or for, like, on behalf of someone else, that it somehow diminishes somebody else's story.

Okay, right.

So so if you were to say like, if you were to tell me a story and say like, yeah, I did this when I was a Marine, and like this happened to us and all these guys like we, we struggle with this, like I wouldn't tell you anything about what, what I did because I don't want to diminish your experience Like I felt, like I didn't have the ability to speak on it, because what I was doing, what I went through somehow, was less than what everyone else was going through, and I felt like that for years.

And then, in talking to them, they were just like that is the reason why it's such a problem is the people who are in it don't understand how bad it is.

And then you've been out of it for long enough that you can look back and like, oh, this was screwed up Like sure can look back and like, oh this was screwed off, like sure this was bad, like this was bad for sure, we did a lot of crazy stuff.

This was bad and like you did more of it than anybody who can speak on it, and you're willing to speak on it, and so I did, and so I think that's just one of the last things I want to say is like I just I want people to feel like they can speak up and like a hundred percent.

I never did.

I never talked to anybody.

And that shit festers and it builds and it rots, it sucks man, it becomes cancer and I feel that's a problem especially in men.

Yeah.

Because we, we, I don't know where it comes from.

I've talked about it a few times on this podcast with other dudes that have had like great breakthroughs, that have gone through some pretty shitty times.

I don't know where it stems from, in the male culture where we can't talk about the shit I don't.

You know, it's just I don't.

I don't the Joe Rogans, the Andrew Tates, all these these wannabe alpha dudes, but it's.

And then and then at the same time, then you get guys like yourself, law enforcement officers that oh, I wasn't military, it's not, I didn't go through what the guys in the military did.

Yeah.

Which most people don't even realize, like less than 1% of military actually like see combat Right, and those guys are even bottling it.

And it's like I, I that's one thing that I have learned on this podcast, sitting and talking to people.

That's one thing that I have learned on this podcast, sitting and talking to people.

It does not matter what you have done, especially in the law enforcement first responder world paramedics, firefighters, correctional officers, cops the shit you all have to deal with on a daily basis is nothing compared to the military people and I'll say it, I know I'll catch some flack for it and, granted, my military experience is nothing compared to a lot of dudes that lost a lot.

I'm not taking anything away from those guys.

have been through a lot yeah I'm just talking as a whole 90, 99 of military.

Don't do fuck all yeah but then you look at a cop, correctional officer that you're you're dealing with death every single day.

You're dealing with the nastiest, the worst, the angriest, the most violent, the sick, everything.

You, our first responders and I'm wrapping everybody under one umbrella deal with a thousand times more just shit than our military does, and I have no problem defending that.

And that's one thing I learned since launching this up, this podcast, because oh, we're vets.

I got my deployments in.

You ain't shit, you ain't shit.

Yeah, fuck, dude, cops got to go every day.

Yeah, cool, we, we did our little pumps.

We go over eight, nine, ten months, do a year.

Army does.

Then we get to come home.

Yeah, Dude every day.

No time to decompress Every day.

You get two days off.

Cool, I mean shit, sometimes eight hours yeah.

And it goes for all of our first responders man it's, it's in in.

Nobody talks about it, and that's why it's so strange to me that, like law enforcement, all of our I'm just saying first responders is an umbrella wrap up, all of them.

The fact that there's no va yeah there's no mental health.

I mean, there's little programs and they're here.

How many charities are out there for fucking correctional officers?

I don't know any offering dudes that are like dealing with death and violence every single day.

No one cares, yeah, no one cares but it's like why yeah?

Why is it?

Why is the military glamorized?

Because we're going to a foreign country invading a invading a country that doesn't even want us there and we wonder why they're fighting us back.

No shit bro, we we didn't even have, we didn't even have like um services available to us like in the prisons, until probably like three years in.

You know, we were like three years in and they were kind of like, uh, we should probably like do something for these guys, our suicide rates climbing inside with our CEOs Like this is so crazy.

This is so like a dude commits suicide, go home.

I don't know why I never I never really had nightmares, but I have nightmares this night and it's like about what happened.

So how all these nightmares can't sleep.

It's like messing with my head coming into work and I'm just like, oh, you know, show up and they're like hey, we want to have like a mandatory debrief.

This is like our idea of like some therapy for you guys.

I'm like okay, cool, like, but I'm kind of like I don't know, I'm kind of like I don't know that kind of sucked.

It's like I kind of feel like I do need to talk to somebody.

It'd be great, so like I get in there and it's like a fellow coworker First of all.

So I'm like I am about to say shit to you because you don't need to.

You don't need to know, you don't even know my shit.

Right.

And then it's everybody else who responded.

So we're like sitting in, it's like me, these two other dudes, and then this other staff member, and the staff member is kind of like all right, so like well, that was crazy, like let's talk about it, like are you guys doing okay to you know?

And and I'm thinking in my head like I'm not doing that good, like like dude no, I'm not good, but I can't say shit.

Yeah, I'm like, I'm like man.

Usually this stuff doesn't bother me.

I've done it hundreds of times right, I've seen dead people.

Like it doesn't bother me.

Last night bothered me.

I couldn't sleep, I was having nightmares, I was like it was screwing with my head, like the whole way to work, like I don't want to be here right now, like I'm probably going to go punch the first person I can to take some of this out, like this is not good, like no no, and I'm like I probably shouldn't say any of this, you know.

So I'm like, and so they're like let's talk about it.

And the two guys next to me kind of start laughing and they're like no, screw that guy, like we're glad he's gone.

And the other guy's like yeah, me too.

Like one less mouth of v, you know, and I'm kind of like, yeah me too right, yeah, screw that guy yeah, we're good and they're like all right, cool, like you guys are good to go, like everyone's good to go back to work and I'm like mandatory therapy, check like the box, how is it, you know?

And uh, yeah, man, so I that, I know I said the last thing I want to say and then I said all that, but like that really is the last thing, man, just if just talk to somebody, man, talk to people.

You know, my wife never wanted to hear it.

She still doesn't.

Even coming over here, she was like, don't say anything.

I think it's healthy.

I have to, man, I have to.

I feel like these conversations are great for a lot of people that we've had on.

It's just a place to be able to come and like granted, there's gonna be a lot of people to listen to these, what we're saying, so, but it's.

It shows the reality of trauma.

It shows the reality of the stress and the anger and the hate and everything that we carry.

And I see it a lot in our, in our law enforcement, our, in our first responders.

Man, they, you guys, carry a lot of weight every day and no one gives a shit.

And yeah, it's unfortunate, and I, and, and I think the beauty of the whole thing is, like the majority of people I don't expect to understand, like I don't.

I think people are probably going to listen to a lot of this and be like this dude's a asshole, like I, you know, like I, I've gotten that my whole life, like my whole career.

Um, but like there's that 1% of people that are gonna hear it and be like yeah, yeah, 100, no, yeah, I get it dude like, because they're the ones in the trenches.

They're the ones.

Yeah, it's like in a max security for 15 years and hitting shit and piss throwing on bro, like I couldn't even imagine, like if somebody threw shit on me at work just gassed you I'm fucking done like I don't care what my pay is and then to know what corrects officers are making.

Fuck I'm the.

What was it?

How high the movie?

Fuck you.

Fuck I'm out, dude, like not worth it.

I'd rather go panhandle on the street, seriously you make more yeah, I'd rather go flip burgers gosh dude but then it just didn't, then it's just like, well, who's gonna do it?

it's crazy.

I loved it man.

I's crazy.

I loved it man.

I'm sure dude, I still tell people it was the best job I ever had, most fun job.

I don't know if there's another person out there that would speak as highly about corrections as I would.

I will tell you.

I think anybody who's interested do it.

Yeah, best job I ever had.

Most rewarding thing I ever did.

Man, I was had most rewarding thing I ever did man.

I was do you have five more minutes?

All right, listen.

Before I went to the department of corrections, bam, I was.

I was immature, I had quit everything difficult I'd ever done.

Anytime anything in my life got hard, I gave up.

I quit, cause I?

I like I'd never had to battle for anything my whole life.

It was always easy and it was given to me.

I never had to battle for anything my whole life.

It was always easy and it was given to me.

I was, I was weak minded, I like I was scared, I was all those things.

When I went to work for the department of corrections and I saw the first time that guy came out in the tier and I was like I want to be like that dude, how do I become that?

And then I saw the gauntlet I had to go to get there, like the training, the hours, the fight, all the things I had to do, that Like I wanted to quit multiple times.

But I wanted to be like that more.

It taught me so much about myself, dude.

I use more that I learned in corrections on a daily basis than I do from my undergrad, my, my master's degree, any other job I've ever had.

Um, corrections taught me more about talking to people, working with people, working as a team, working with people.

I don't like working with people that are underskilled.

You know, can't like zero talent, can't like just breathe, mouth breathers, right right like working with those people.

Dude, it was the best thing I ever did.

Yeah, best thing I ever did, and I did it for 13 an hour for four and a half years.

The best thing I ever did, you just described the marine corps to the t.

You actually probably were making there we go.

We never had hours, it was just non-stop.

We were probably making way less than 13 an hour yeah, I uh I really appreciate this conversation, man.

This was uh, this was a good one.

I think it's gonna open a lot of eyes on what the hell actually goes on in a maximum security prison.

Like I, I love talking to any of these types if I set up a tour, would you come out and go see it?

Fuck yeah, I would.

I'll.

Uh, I'll try and do that.

I used to do it all the time.

I would love to.

I will.

Um, the warden I think he's the warden and not deputy warden is a really close friend of mine yeah, I'll, uh, I'll see if I can set it up, love they might after this airs.

They might not let me, they may.

Let's do it before they're shunned.

Yeah, we'll do it before.

It'd be awesome, though I think we could pull it off a hundred percent down.

I'd just like to see it.

I've never seen your environment hell, no.

Am I letting you walk in there?

Oh, that would be so bad.

Hell, no, no, she hears enough on this freaking podcast.

Oh my gosh thank you, thank you again, man.

I appreciate it this great.

I appreciate you being vulnerable and talking about some things that you know you've been sitting on for a while and whole point of this show, man, is to have this conversation.

Thank you, man, appreciate it, thank you dude, All right, Fucking it.

Loud chaos.

Baby Holy cow.

I had no, I thought we were maybe like two hours into it.

I had no idea.