Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast.

I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr.

Olivia Kessel.

And more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.

As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.

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Friends just say be stricter.

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In today's episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Michael McLead, the founder of Grow Now ADHD and creator of the Internal Skills Executive Function Strengthening Model.

Michael is an internationally recognized ADHD and executive functioning specialist with over 20 years of experience helping kids, teens, parents, and educators build real life skills that lead to independence, confidence, and success, not just short-term fixes.

He's a seasoned coach, trainer, and speaker, and author who combines strength rates, practical strategies with compassionate support to really transform how families experience ADHD.

Today we're going to dive into how to strengthen executive function in everyday life and why it matters so much for parents and kids alike.

So welcome, Michael.

It is such a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast today.

Thanks for having me.

Oh, you're welcome.

And we get to talk about something that I'm incredibly passionate about, and that's ADHD and executive functioning and actually how understanding the brain and how it works really gives you an insight into strategies that can actually help your child, help yourself.

And until you do that, you really are walking around clueless, which is what I was doing as a parent for many years before I got the diagnosis of my daughter, and that changed anything.

So I'm super excited to pick your brain today about this topic.

So could could you start us a little bit with your story and your journey?

Sure.

So I started my career as a speech and language pathologist.

So I was working with students, you know, for very in various uh areas all throughout Philadelphia for speech and language needs.

Um and my supervisor, who was supervising me during my fellowship year, was an apraxia specialist.

Okay.

And as part of her being an apraxia specialist, which is a motor speech disorder, uh, we worked with a group called the Focus Foundation, uh, based out of Washington, D.C.

and Annapolis, Maryland, um, that worked with boys and girls with chromosomal disorders.

So all of those, those children had apraxia of speech, and they also had ADHD.

And I learned very quickly from working with these families and all these great doctors and professionals that there's really very little out there for kids and teens with ADHD that is truly evidence-based, walking, uh, you know, working off of the most up-to-date research and is actually, you know, benefiting them throughout life after they graduate from high school and and you know, move into the real world.

So there's very little, you know, real effective stuff out there.

They're being sent to all this talk therapy and counseling and social skills and cognitive behavioral therapy, all of these things that are not truly evidence-based for ADHD and executive functioning, uh, and was not improving overall quality of life, was not helping, not moving the needle, and not really helping these really burnt out, frustrated, exhausted parents.

Uh, so I uh eventually uh worked and developed the GrowNow model of internal skills, which is exactly what we use at Grownow ADHD with our programming, where we work directly with the student on internal skills training and we combine it with parent coaching, parent training, teacher training, teacher communication.

Uh, and that's really the foundation of the program.

Uh so we did a year-long research study on the Grown Out model of internal skills, and everything really expanded from there.

Uh, so as an individual with ADHD myself, I was very motivated to um develop a program that actually helped these kids.

And we did it based off of what ADHD and executive functions truly are, and everything's really expanded from there.

Excellent.

Well, but uh before we get into executive functioning, um, you you've piqued my interest with the research study in terms of what that showed.

But um, can you give us a couple of highlights?

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

So basically what we did was we worked we worked with an entire grade level at a local uh private school.

Like a grade level, what age group that is, because a lot of my audience is in the UK, so they won't even understand different things.

So we were working with uh grade eight, which was around um, I would say like 13, 14 years old.

So year year nine, 10 here, basically.

Yep.

So it was uh it was teenagers, so we were working with teenagers.

Um we worked worked with them throughout the entire school year.

So the beginning of the year, we did baseline testing to get their overall scores of where they currently were.

Then throughout the year, we implemented the model.

We worked with all the kids one-on-one on strengthening the internal skills, which I'm sure we'll talk about today, uh like exercises and strategies of what executive functions truly are and what the deficits of ADHD truly are.

We'll talk about today how ADHD is not an attention disorder, executive functioning is not time management and organization.

So we focused on the real skills that these things actually are.

We combined it with parent training, teacher training all throughout the year, did final testing at the end, and we saw improvements in all three areas of executive functioning academic, social, and home.

Excellent.

Well, I think that takes us beautifully into because I kind of jumped the gun there.

That's probably my undiagnosed ADHD in terms of want to know what the results of the research is and my medical brain.

But for a lot of our listeners, you know, when you hear executive function, it's kind of like, oh yeah, they have executive functioning problems.

But what does that really mean, you know, to the layperson, to the mom and dad out there?

What does executive functioning mean?

And you've just touched upon that what some people think of ADHD and what it actually is, there's there's a difference there.

So if you could explain more.

Yeah.

So to start, ADHD is not an attention disorder.

That is a horrible label placed on these kids that that inappropriately gets them labeled as lazy and disinterested and non-compliant.

Uh so it's not an attention disorder, it's a performance disorder based on the ability to execute and perform.

So ADHD is an executive functioning developmental disorder.

ADHD is the preeminent disorder of executive functioning, period.

And executive functioning is not just time management and organization and messy backpacks and messy folders and messy bedrooms.

That is an incredibly outdated view of what executive functions truly are, because executive functioning is the greatest predictor of success for human beings.

Executive functions predict success for people more than grades, your, you know, your standardized test scores or anything like that.

You need executive functioning skills to move out of your parents' house, get a job, keep a job, make friends, and keep friends.

So I can imagine if people are listening to this, Mike, and they're thinking, oh my God, you're you're saying without this, you know, the shit is gonna hit the fan.

And my child has uh uh uh it has problems in this.

So yeah, exactly.

And and and this is this is where the focus needs to be.

And uh I you know, um I'm sure you can fill me on on fill me in on how things are going over in over in England and the UK.

Um, but overall here in America, we're dealing with the worst youth mental health crisis of all time.

Uh so you know, suicide rates, in-person, uh inpatient, uh, you know, all these different things, self-harm, everything is all significantly on the rise.

And it's been horrible.

And we'll we'll talk about exactly the foundations to that, which of course is screen use.

Uh so we'll talk about that.

But overall, with executive functions, it's you know, number one, the number one thing is self-regulation.

So ADHD is not attention deficit disorder, it is self-regulation deficit disorder, the ability to regulate your emotions, your language, your body, your behavior in various environments towards various stimuli.

So number one, it's really it's really interesting because you know you you've touched upon something that really rings true with me.

And if I had only understood this, even as a physician, um, I would have recognized my daughter's emotional dysregulation as one of the key and most painful indications that she had ADHD.

That's the number one indicator is emotional regulation, correct?

And then looking at the DSM uh criteria, oh, well, they took it out because it's hard to measure.

You know what I mean?

And so it's incredibly frustrating as a clinician and then as a mother, um, you know, and my own emotional dysregulation, if I'm honest as well, that that's not known.

Why is that?

Like, you know, uh you're what you're saying is music to my ears, but like it's still not commonly known.

Correct.

It's it's barely known.

It's barely, it's frustrates me.

My emotional regulation goes off the chat again.

Yeah.

Where I live here in the Philadelphia region, this is one of the this is one of the therapy capitals of the world.

You know, every single street is a therapist, an evaluator, a psychiatrist, uh, all these different things.

And every single day I see $4,000, $5,000, $6,000 evaluations, not noting emotions as part of ADHD, written by very powerful, very smart, very successful uh psychiatrists and neuropsychs and all these people not going off of the most up-to-date research.

And to become a teacher here in America, you probably get 15 minutes of executive functioning training.

And here is the most crucial set of skills for kids to develop.

And it's not part of schooling.

It's not part of the training to become a teacher.

Everything is completely, completely backwards.

Uh, we're going off of totally outdated information, and it's an absolute mess, and it's further leading to us treating childhood and the experience of childhood completely wrong.

And the kids are hurting because of our incompetence as adults.

I uh yeah, and just our our inability to, as you say, move forward with the research to see what's actually going on.

And if, you know, all of the parents that I work with, it is the number one thing that is very difficult for them to manage, both from a personal perspective, because often they have ADHD as well, and then also from their child's perspective as well.

And then when the two meet together.

So you know, it is one of the causes the most disruption in the home, causes the most disruption at school, causes the most disruption socially, and and then problems escalate from there.

So, you know, it's it definitely is something that I think more people need to start talking about.

And when we talk about those executive functioning skills also, it's that people with ADHD have that developmental delay.

Um, are you familiar with Dr.

Russell Barclay?

He does a great he is the best of the best.

There is nobody better than Dr.

Russell Barclay.

It's very sad he is it's very sad he recently retired, uh, but you know, he well deserved.

Uh nobody has done more for the field of ADHD than him, and nobody ever will.

I asked him to come on this podcast.

He said, Livia, I'm so sorry I'm retired, but I always I always put his, you know, put his just go to his YouTube channel because it is a fountain of information and the research there is incredible, and he's incredible.

And you know, when I learned from him about that 30% delay, it just changed the way I looked at my daughter.

Do you know what I mean?

And when I make that adjustment for where she's at, things changed.

You know what I mean?

And and as she grows, she's getting more and more able to do things.

So um, I'd love to hear your your take on, I think you call it a skills lag.

Yeah, that's exactly it.

It's an executive functioning developmental delay, a developmental disorder of that.

And yeah, it's a 30% delay.

So, number one, we talked about the first pillar of the four pillars of executive function, self-regulation.

So if you have a 10-year-old with ADHD, they are probably going to respond emotionally to situations like maybe a six or a seven-year-old.

And like really all that is saying is overall, be prepared, have the expectations where you know they are going to respond those that way.

They are going to cry and whine and argue and negotiate and you know, uh seek out screens and work around uh you know demands and try to break down boundaries like little kids, like a younger little m child is going to try to do.

It doesn't mean that you, as the parent, lower the expectations and lower the bar towards their executive age.

You keep the bar at their actual age and you keep those standards, you keep those boundaries.

The last thing an ADHD child needs is a permissive parent that overindulges the child to avoid conflict.

And there is not a clear hierarchy of roles in the home of you're the parent, I'm the child, the parent makes the rules, the child follows them.

Uh, and you know, things are open communication and you know, democratic, responsive, flexible, all those things, sure.

A loving parent, but with very clear limits and boundaries.

The ADHD child absolutely needs that.

I I hear what you're saying.

I would agree with some of it, probably disagree with some of it too, because I think it did help me as a parent not to lower those standards to what she is capable of and to have the just right challenge.

So I agree, being a completely permissive parent is not what we're looking for, but actually having things that a child can do to their skill level or a little bit above, so it's a little bit of a stretch, but not so much that it's so far, because then it just ends up in a meltdown.

So I think that there is um some adjustment that needs to be made.

Um and that can be sometimes navigated with medication, then they can get higher up.

But um that's that's my two cents worth, but we are all able to have our own opinions.

So anyway, you were talking about the four pillars, and we've discussed the first one.

Yep.

So the first is self-regulation of emotions, the second is self-motivation towards non-preferred, non-instantly gratifying tasks.

So in today's world, you cannot discuss ADHD without also, in the same sentence, discussing a very debilitating, very serious screen addiction.

So the ADHD brain, which is hardwired towards instant gratification, time blind stuck in the now, the ADHD brain is looking for instant dopamine at like in that moment.

They have a very hard time handling boredom or handling a non-preferred, boring task like homework, morning routine, evening routine, you know, reaching out to a friend or sitting down at dinner, those sorts of things.

So their brain is constantly in dopamine-seeking mode.

So they're constantly seeking out screens or conflict, conflict from parents, screens and conflict, screens and conflict.

So yeah, if you have a child with ADHD, you have to be very, very careful about when you give them their first smartphone or video games or uh, you know, social media or anything like that, because that will become the center of their lives very, very quickly, and they will do whatever they can to get as much screen time as possible.

I know.

So you might I uh you've heard, of course, that Australia is like banned all social media.

And I, you know, I banned all social media with my daughter until I I've said 17 until she, you know, can think it.

We do have some YouTube, but that's that's about it.

But um because I couldn't I couldn't handle it.

I couldn't handle I couldn't handle it with her.

So it's you know, it it it it's the same thing, you know, uh Dr.

Russell Barkley to bring it up again about the driving and stuff like that.

You have to kind of shift um in terms of what what what you might allow another child to do, which I would disagree.

I mean, I like that Australia's just banned all of it, so it makes it very simple.

Correct, which is what they should do because it's it's you know, it's a drug to kids.

Uh these or these organizations, these massive billion dollar companies, hire psychiatrists on their team when they make these apps to make them as addicting as possible.

Uh so you know what they're doing is has very bad intentions.

Uh, you know, Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft, Snapchat, all of these things are designed to get kids hooked.

And it's our neurodiverse ADHD kids that are the biggest victim in this mess of screens and addictive screens.

Uh so what Australia did was was it quite amazing for a government to do something in the best interest of kids, not in the best interest of profit and companies.

So I applaud Australia for what they did.

That was absolutely amazing.

It would be um wonderful if America would do that, which they never will, of course.

America loves their loves their billion-dollar companies uh and loves their trillionaires, loves their billionaires.

Uh so uh it'll never happen here, but um I I applaud Australia and you know I I see a lot of videos now of Australia teens complaining like, how could you do this?

How could you do this?

Give it two, three months, and you're gonna start seeing videos of Australia teens out and about playing and going to malls and going to playgrounds and playing basketball and doing things.

Give it about three months, and you're gonna see some very happy, healthy kids and teens in Australia.

And I think you're also gonna see in the kids, I think it's probably hardest for the kids that are in the thick of it, but the kids growing up who are who are going in, they're gonna have more of a childhood like we did, where that just wasn't an option.

Correct.

There's gonna be a lot of very successful, prepared youth in Australia over the next 10, 15 years.

Yeah.

I mean, it's interesting, even in China, they've banned TikTok, but they they they're spreading it across the world, you know.

So it's uh yeah, it's it's it's uh that that's that's just like the how you know the saying of the individuals who are making these things, the people who make, you know, the people who build and make Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft, Snapchat, YouTube, don't give it to their own kids.

Uh so there's they what do they know that we don't?

Actually, we do know it.

We're just choosing to ignore it because the the thought, the idea.

So part of what we do with Grow Now is we do a lot of parent coaching and parent training, and a lot of it has to be helping parents eliminate screens from their child's life.

Because that you can't help build executive functions in a child when the majority of their life is spent in the virtual world.

So, how am I going to work with this kid and help him strengthen his executive functioning skills?

Where as soon as he leaves the session, he's back on his phone, he's back on the internet.

Back on video games.

So we work with the parents to eliminate screens.

And the very first time you approach a parent and say, hey, your kid's screen addicted.

We're going to have to do something about this.

The first thing that happens is their face turns ghost white with intense fear.

It's the scariest thing that they could possibly ever hear is, oh boy, we're going to have to remove these screens.

Because deep down the parents know it's a drug.

My kid's addicted, and they're going to withdraw for two, three weeks.

And this is going to be one of the hardest things we ever did.

There's no difference between screens and alcohol and drugs and gambling.

It's the exact same thing, and parents know it.

Yeah.

Scary words.

Terrifying.

All right.

So we've done pillar one, pillar two.

What's pillar three and four?

Uh three and four.

We have self-evaluation, which is the ability to learn from past experiences and apply it to the present.

This is sort of the foundation to ADHD parenting burnout is the inability to kind of learn from past mistakes and learn from past consequences and issues.

You know, uh if you have a neurotypical child, you know, in the morning, getting ready for school might be rough for a month.

But if you have an ADHD child, morning routines getting to school on time are going to be crazy until the very last day of school that school year.

It's going to look like it's the gift that keeps on giving.

So like you can say, oh, you hit your brother, I'm going to take your phone away for 24 hours.

24 hours go by, they get their phone back, they hit their brother again with the next five minutes.

So in an inability to self-evaluate and learn from past experiences.

That's three.

And then four is overall self-awareness, the ability to be aware that the choices and the behaviors and the things that you do affect others and affect yourself.

So this is where uh ADHD and executive dysfunction are going to impact you socially.

There's a huge social aspect to ADHD.

This is another one of those big misconceptions that it's just, oh, it's just a school-based disorder.

It's only going to affect you in school and paying attention and taking notes and getting good grades.

That's nonsense.

Kids with ADHD really struggle socially, and that's a huge heartbreak of ADHD, is the social struggles.

And it makes it it it combines with the difficulties of school, and it's it's it's very hard to navigate.

So um I think you've very clearly outlined and in a different way than most people think of ADHD, or most of the way that it's being portrayed by general media.

So um I think you know, you're speaking to my heart in many ways.

Um, so what can parents do?

What are some strategies that you teach parents or you teach kids?

And maybe we can take it through some of those pillars that we just talked about and maybe interweave some case studies if you have them.

Of course.

Yeah.

So so you know, overall, um uh we have all these misconceptions we're talking about with ADHD and executive functions.

Another huge misconception is that kids learn from lectures and monologues and worksheets.

You know, uh, oh, my child's struggling socially.

Let me get him in talk therapy so he can talk about things, or get him in counseling, or a social skills group.

All of those things are not evidence-based for executive functions because executive functions are only developed.

You know, they were talking about the prefrontal cortex of the brain that develops until 30 years ago.

Listeners, that's right behind your forehead there.

That's the front part of your brain.

Yep, and it takes 30 years to develop, and it requ it it is developed through relationships and experiences.

And that's exactly what screens are stealing from this entire generation of youth is experiences.

Jonathan Haidt talks about this in the Anxious Generation.

He calls screens and smartphones experience killers.

So the second we stole play and boredom from childhood, the youth mental health crisis began.

And now we're seeing, you know, Gen Z graduating from high school, not being ready for college.

We're seeing college dropout rates skyrocket, not being ready for work, we're seeing unemployment skyrocket, and we're seeing kids living in the basement of their parents' house for much longer than ever before, and really being incapable because so much was done for them throughout their lives.

They stay prompt dependent on their parents for too long, and all the focus was just on grades, grades, grades, when grades are not a real predictor of success.

It's how independent are you?

How greatly can you regulate and motivate towards things that don't offer you instant gratification?

That's executive functions.

So you have to be able to look at your right every single parent listening to this episode right now should look at your child.

Don't look at the grades, don't look at school performance, look at their experiences on a day-to-day basis.

Are they doing different things?

Do they have unstructured outdoor play?

Are they involved at their school outside of academics in clubs, activities, and sports?

Are they doing after school activities?

Do they play with their peers face to face socially?

Or do they just wake up, go to school, come home, stay home?

If they do, that's a problem.

Kids were not meant to only grow up within the walls of the school and the walls of the home.

They have to experience life and have experiences away from you.

So experience is number one and relationships number two.

Kids need to have an identity away from their family, away from their parents.

They need real face-to-face social interactions.

Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft, Snapchat, those things are not real social experiences.

I don't care if they're playing Minecraft and they're FaceTiming or they're doing Discord or they're have a headset on talking to someone.

It's not a real social experience, period.

That is not helping someone's social experiences.

So you need to make sure your child is involved with real face-to-face social interaction as much as possible.

Relationships and experiences build executive functions, not lectures, not worksheets, not talk therapy.

Yeah.

What what would you say though to parents who say, you know, they they struggle to get their children to do those things?

How do you of course that it's a it's a it's it's a disorder of self-motivation towards non-preferred tasks.

This is why they need a strong, authoritative parent that makes more things an expectation and not a choice.

If your child has the choice of I need you to join a club, a sport, an activity, and the other side of that is, oh no, I can just go home and be in my bed by myself on my phone scrolling for hours, they're gonna pick the phone a million times out of a million times.

That's it.

So you have to look at what are the child's options here.

How are they trying to avoid?

Yeah, it's a struggle to get your kids to do things because being isolated in the virtual world is so appealing to them because the demands are low and it's giving them constant dopamine, but it's the absolute worst thing for them.

So you as the parent need to make more things in expectation and not a choice.

If you need to remove those screens, cancel that phone plan, all of those things.

If you need to contact the school and make sure they're not getting on the bus or their pickup time is delayed, or uh the teachers need to enforce them joining an after-school club activity, you know, don't try to do everything alone.

Utilize your circle, utilize your school, utilize the teachers and you know, all the individuals who are there as part of your child's educational team.

Uh talk to other parents in your neighborhood.

Get on your school, uh, your school district Facebook page or your neighborhood Facebook page and reach out to other parents that are struggling with the exact same thing.

There's probably similar parents on the same street and say, hey, let's get our kids together to do homework together.

Let's get our kids together to go to the park every day after school.

Or Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I'll take both kids.

Tuesday, Thursday, you take both kids.

Whatever you can to get your kid with other kids, uh, it's going to have to happen.

But it's your job as the parent to persevere through the complaining, the negotiating, the pushback, the you're the worst parent ever.

You're ruining my life.

I can't believe you're doing this to me.

Uh, it's your job to persevere through all of that noise and all of that nonsense that is them trying to stay in their comfort zone.

Yeah, I hear you.

And I think it's also like to a degree, though, also to find out what your child's gonna hyper focus on or enjoys, because then that's the path of least resistance to finding a way outside of screen time where they want to do something.

So are you interested in singing?

Join a choir.

Are you interested in football?

Go join a football team.

You know, finding the thing, when you find the things that ADHDers really like, they'll go and do that really strongly.

And they're often not going to find that thing until they've tried it.

Uh how many, how many, yeah, they may be interested in singing, but they're not gonna know they're interested in singing until you persevere through the complaining and get them into some sort of singing thing.

So that's one of the biggest heartbreaks of ADHD is how many of these screen-addicted ADHD kids that are on their phones every day, on social media, on video games, every single day, deep down are an incredible singer, an incredible artist, uh, you know, incredible athlete, uh, all of these different unbelievable talents that are lying dormant within them, and we never get to find out because their lives are spent on screens.

Uh so it so all these parents that push their kids and don't take, don't confuse complaining for cannot, and don't get involved with all this social media nonsense of, oh, you're gonna increase your kids' anxiety, you're going to traumatize them, and all of the fear-mongering on parenting social media where every algorithm is do this for your kid, do that for your kid, connection seeking, this, that.

Uh, none of that is helping parents.

Uh, you know, the the authoritative parents that get their kids out of their comfort zone and get them to experience life and learn their talents, learn their strengths, that's what ADHD kids need the most, are the parents that have high expectations and send the child the message every single day, I believe in you.

You can do hard things without me.

Yeah, and I think that there's also a degree of connection with your child to say you're gonna go and try things out.

And you know, I do it with my daughter, and I, you know, we've been doing it, we we tried thousands of things, but we go and try it, and there's, you know, you have to do it for at least six weeks, you know, because that's usually how long the the payment is for the whatever they're doing.

You know, we've done tap dancing, we've done ballet, we've done the theater, and you know when it sticks and when it is something that they start to enjoy and they want to go back, they'll still have wobbly periods with it, but yeah, they find the ones.

And then if you know you want to stop one for a period of time, that's okay.

Swimming was a non-negotiable until she could swim, but once she could swim, she could stop that.

But um, it's it's putting those different things out there for them to try and then to become passionate about, and and then it grows.

Now she's a teenager, she's extremely interested in drama and singing and wants to learn the piano now, and and then it it gets a life all of its own.

But it's a I do it more as an agreement with her.

If she wants to try, you know, we're gonna try this thing, and then she's usually excited about you know trying anything.

I think most ADHDers are, you know, they're we're very excited in the beginning, and then it's the okay, we've lost interest now, but then it's this that agreement that you're gonna try it for six weeks and give it your all.

And sometimes that can be a nightmare.

We we we joined a theater group in London, and it was hard.

I didn't like it, she didn't like it.

We're sitting in the car crying, but we get out and we would go, and I said, We have to we have to get through it, and she did it, and then at the end, you know, we talked it through, and I said, It's your decision, and she said, Uh, it's my decision, then I I want to stop that, I don't want to stop drama, but that wasn't right for me.

And I think that's also okay as well.

But you have to realize when it's okay to try things and fail as well.

Of course, of course.

Oh, but nobody should confuse anything I'm saying with authoritarian parenting.

I'm not saying be a drill sergeant and all of these things.

Authoritative parenting is loving and warm and calm and compassionate, but with very clear you know, boundaries and hierarchy of relationships where you're the parent and they're the child.

Too many parents today make their child the co-parent.

They make their child the partner in parenting where the child is just choosing everything about their days and kids aren't ready for that.

All the research tells us that when we give our kids too much choosing power, where we make them the co-parent, it actually leads to kids who have a very uh who are very insecure of themselves and don't have confidence and don't have social skills.

So what I'm describing is actually what you just described, where you're you're doing it as connection, collaboration, communication, where yeah, you're you're coming across to them very warm, very compassionate.

You're gonna have to try something for a minimum of six weeks.

We're gonna, we're in this together, we're gonna do it together.

I'm here if you want to talk, I'm here if you want to complain, but the boundary of the six weeks is not going to go away.

You're going to do this for at least six weeks.

And if at the end of six weeks you want to quit, you need to go tell the coach yourself, I'm not quitting for you, but I'm here for you, and we're going to do this together.

And now you have a a child who is very interested in all these wonderful actual real world talents and skills.

Uh, there's far too many teenagers today where their only skills are Roblox, Fortnite, Minecraft, and Snapchat.

And that's a problem because those are not actual skills.

Uh she does also play Minecraft and Roblox, I'll have you add.

But uh with the, you know, and uh, you know, that's I I think that Minecraft, and uh you might think I'm wrong.

I think it's got a lot of um a lot of good building and imagination and creation kind of things in in it.

Roblox, I have I have had to monitor, and there are some very dark sides to that that I uh have discovered, and I think you really need to be careful with.

But um, so I think that there's a place for everything, but you have to be structured within it because I think and you have to know when you can introduce it and how much they they get.

And uh so um Correct.

And and and they're gonna tell you, so there's a big saying on on uh parenting social media that all behavior is communication.

But we only we we only really want to believe that when it's warm and fuzzy and makes us feel good.

Like, oh, that's not attention seeking, that's connection seeking.

He needs more connection and more love and more hugs and me to get on his level.

But how about all behavior is communication and your child sneaking around you or freaking out every time the screen time is over, or just every time they're bored saying, Can I have some more Fortnite?

Can I have some more Fortnite?

Or you're the parent, and the only way to get them to brush their teeth is to say, do this or lose your screen time, do this, and you get screen time where you're constantly dangling screen time like a carrot.

That's your child telling you with their behaviors, you gave me too many screens too early.

My brain's not ready for this.

So, you know, sure, you know, Minecraft may seem cool to us adults in terms of imagination and building, but nothing you do in Minecraft is going to transfer into real life in terms of, you know, building something in Minecraft and all of a sudden I'm an engineer or I know how to know how to code.

Sure, it's you know, it's whatever.

But you need to watch your child.

If they are constantly seeking screens when they're bored, if they are constantly coming after you when screen time is over, they're not ready for it.

They're telling you with their kids are not gonna come to their parents and say, Mom, I just can't handle Minecraft.

My brain can't handle it.

Please take it away from me.

It's never gonna happen.

They're gonna tell you with their physical aggression, their property destruction, their yelling, their complaining, all of those, their disinterest in everything outside of screens.

That's them telling you, I'm not ready for this.

You need to be more authoritative.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of parents will resonate that with that because I think a lot of the triggers of meltdowns and the verbal and physical abuse and breaking of things happen when that screen time is turned off.

Correct.

And that's the saddest part, is a lot of parenting social media now is saying, oh, you know, your child goes to school all day and they're masking all day and they're holding in their ADHD behaviors, and by the time they get home, they're exhausted.

So you have to be their punching bag.

You have to let them come after you, and it's okay if they attack you.

You're their safe person.

That is absolute nonsense.

I've had far too many parents reach out to me and say, Oh, I was told I'm their safe person.

I have to let them treat me this way.

No, you don't get treated that way as your, you don't get treated that way as the parent.

You don't get to be the punching bag.

You're, you know, there's there's love and there's limits there.

You don't accept that behavior from your child and teach them that that's okay.

What's that?

Oh, it's all over social media.

All over social media person, so I'm I'm all social media.

There is more like with the rise of social media came the rise of pseudoscience.

Um, and it's no longer about your degree, your training, your education.

It's about how fancy are your videos and um how many followers do you have.

And if you have enough followers, you must be an authoritative voice.

So there's more there's probably more nonsense out there about parenting and what's best for kids than probably any other field.

You know, there's people that say that, oh, screens are actually regulating to the neurodiverse brain.

You know, neurodiverse people actually need screens, it regulates them.

And anyone who's saying that should just be flat out ashamed of themselves.

Like that is just horrible advice.

And if if parents see that, that's giving them the check mark to just give my kid as many screens as you'd like, and it's you're you're destroying lives by giving parents that that advice, and it's it's horrible.

Uh so there's so much nonsense out there where parents are being pulled in a million different directions, and parenting has become this science where these experts get to tell you how to deal with your kids, um, and parents can no longer go off their instincts.

It's it's uh it's quite scary.

Yeah, and it's it's it's I mean, it it's not uh it's not okay to hit anyone, whether that's your safe person, your mother, your dog, yeah, or you know, it's it's just not okay.

It's a non-negotiable.

It happens, yes.

It happens with ADHD, and you know, there that needs to be navigated.

So I think it's a very common thing, and I think a lot of moms feel shame, feel like they're in an abusive relationship that they can't talk about.

And so there, you know, there's a lot of hiding it behind closed doors, but it is not okay, and it it it it horrifies me that there's advice out there saying to parents that they need to take it because no, because it's not going to help your child or you moving forward.

Um and you just hit the nail on the head that it that it parents feel a lot of shame about it, and it becomes like this deep dark secret that parents sort of just hold.

And you know, with ADHD, it's very environment dependent.

And most people associate ADHD with the school and grades and those sorts of things.

But actually a little bit over half of ADHD kids do quite okay at school.

The vast majority of ADHD behaviors are not seen at school, they're seen in the home.

So there are three zones of executive functioning: academic, social, and home.

And home is where the worst behaviors are seen.

School is structured, very structured day where you know what's coming next, and there's conditional relationships at school.

There are peers who can choose not to like you, who could choose not to include you, and there's teachers that can very easily get you in trouble.

It's a very clear set of rules and limits, and that's what the ADHD brain responds best to: structure and conditional relationships.

Home is unstructured with unconditional relationships.

So the black and white, rigid ADHD brain has this unconditional relationship of mom, and it thinks to itself, hey, wait a second, here is this person in my life that I can say absolutely unspeakable things to, and she's still gonna tuck me in.

At night and buy me my favorite snacks and help me with my homework and do all these things for me.

And the the brain starts to learn that this relationship is all take and no give.

And that mess ends up affecting them socially down the road.

So we need to help parents make their home more structured, like school is.

You know, a lot of parents will call the school and tell the teacher what a kid is like in the home.

And the teacher's like, are we talking about the same kid here?

I don't, I don't like I don't see that at school.

He's amazing at school.

But too many things happen at home that remain a secret.

If there is physical aggression, if there is property damage, if there is concerning behaviors, let the school know, let professionals know.

And make sure that there are other people holding your child accountable besides yourself.

Because when we were all kids before this screen era, kids had coaches and counselors and teachers and heads of clubs and heads of drama and heads of things that they would speak to and have relationships with before kids just woke up, went to school, came home, and stay home.

They had other relationships that would hold them accountable to these behaviors.

Yeah.

And you know, it it is super interesting because they don't they won't do those behaviors usually in front of other people.

Of course.

Yeah.

And that's one of the number one parent training recommendations is to enlist your supporters.

So if you and so that's one of the biggest things is if you have a child who has property property destruction, physical aggression, bring in a neutral third party, bring in an aunt, an uncle, a neighbor, a social worker, whoever.

Bring them into the home and you're gonna see those behaviors go away real fast.

Yeah, it is super interesting.

And you know, but uh, you know, the bottom line is non-negotiable.

It is something that, you know, no parent, it it's not good parenting.

So let's just uh underline, underline, underline that.

And it's not gonna help your child either.

Um, so you you need to navigate your your way through that.

Um if there was another strategy, we're running out of time here.

Could you share one more strategy that parents could use at home?

So the so uh the number one strategy in all of ADHD evidence-based parent training is to use 80% less language.

That's the number one thing.

The ADHD brain, language makes dysregulation worse.

So the more you talk, the more you talk, the more you lecture, the more you monologue at your child, the more you verbally prompt, put your shoes on, put your shoes on, put your shoes on, the more dysregulated they are going to get.

All AD all ADHD behaviors need an audience.

As long as you are there, the behaviors will increase.

ADHD parents need to learn to say something once, show something once, and walk away.

Remember, this is a negative attention-seeking brain.

So they get more stimulated by hearing stop that than good job.

That gives them more dopamine when they're getting negative attention.

If you have an ADHD child and you say, go put your shoes on, verbal prompt, they now have two choices.

They could put their shoes on and hear a very quick good job, or they can not put their shoes on and have you chase them around the house for four hours.

You know which you know which one, you know which one they're gonna choose.

They want that cat and mouse game.

They want that.

So you need to replace many of your verbal prompts with visuals.

Instead of saying put your shoes on, get a picture of them putting their shoes on one day and show them that picture and then get out of there.

Don't say anything.

Instead of saying go clean your room, get a picture of a clean room, show it to them and get out of there.

Uh if um if yet they have trouble getting their homework done, get a picture of them doing their homework one day, show them that picture and get away.

Uh so make sure your house does not look like a casino with screens.

Make sure there's not screens and iPads and video games and uh they have, you know, they control their phone, they don't control their phone, you do, you bought it, you pay for it, you make the monthly payments, and do your best to replace verbal prompts with visuals.

And when your child is dysregulated, you need to learn as the parent to get away.

The ADHD uh child is very, very good at keeping the audience there, saying the things that are going to pull at your heartstrings that keep you there.

You're the worst parent.

You're ruining my life.

I'm not doing that.

They want your attention, they want the audience.

So the longer you're there, you need to learn to walk away from dysregulation and teach them when you act like that, you lose my attention.

ADHD parents get so consumed with what's the best consequence?

What's the consequence?

The best consequence is to lose your attention, is to remove the audience, walk away from them.

And you can't engage with them until they show you that they are ready for you.

So I mean, I uh I agree with you, but I also could imagine my daughter, if I showed her a picture of putting your shoes on, she, you know, that that uh it the shoes would not be going on.

Um try it.

Give it a shot.

Try it, try it.

So you know, we I've actually I use post-it notes, and that's worked really well for me.

Um, and and she has post-it notes and and and things that she does, but try the try the real world pictures, I'm telling you.

Try it.

I'll give you know what I'll try anything.

Um and with homework, you know, it is interesting that you say that because I've given up on homework.

I can't stand it.

I have PTSD from it.

I go and shake in a corner when she'd say, We've got homework.

Ah!

So now I just said, you know what?

I don't give an F.

I said, Don't do your homework.

I love it.

For all I care, don't turn it in.

You can suffer the consequences at school.

I don't care anymore.

I would recommend I said, if you want, do your homework on the weekend so you don't have to do it during the week.

And you know what?

We, we, we, I don't she self-motivates, does her own homework.

Music to my ears.

I love it.

I love it.

That is uh that is absolute music to my ears.

Too many parents.

I I I I I can't even imagine what it's like there, but I can tell you here in America, too many parents have taken on the role of homework secretary, like it's their number one job where they gotta sit with the kid and do all this.

And obviously, ed tech has made it worse, all these person one-to-one laptops and one-to-one iPads, which is the worst thing to ever happen to education, is you know, giving kids laptops and computers and all these different things.

So now they come home with a laptop and it's too easy for them to hack it and start playing games or start watching YouTube where parents think they have to sit down with their kid and do homework with them.

Absolute mess.

So if more parents could take that mindset, I don't care if you do it.

Well, uh if they choose not to do it, it's your job as a parent to make sure they're not just scrolling in another room or playing a video game in another room.

Like, no, you don't get to just do what you want, but if you choose not to do it, that's your responsibility.

We have to increase the consequences at school.

So, Dr.

Russell Barkley, one of his famous quotes who you mentioned earlier, if you want to see an ADHD person fail, put them in an environment with no consequences.

And here in America, we've done that with a lot of our schools, where kids can turn things in late with no points off.

Uh, they, you know, uh they're able to, you know, make up for various things.

And it's and a lot of schools have like a minimum grade where uh you know they don't they don't even have to show up to class or turn anything in, and they still pass and graduate.

Uh so it's a real it's a real mess what we're doing to our kids by removing consequences.

That's the way to get your stats better, isn't it?

Just have no have no accountability.

No, in my daughter's school, it's brilliant.

If you don't do your homework, then you have to do it in your break time.

There you go.

And she doesn't want to do that.

There you have it.

So you're doing the right thing by not getting yourself involved.

You're saving, you're saving your own mental health.

No, exactly.

And it it was, it's, it's, it's, it can be so stressful for so many parents, as you say.

And you know, I counsel people on it as well.

You're not getting a grade in their homework, but yet you are doing their homework and you're sitting there having these blowouts, and it's just it's not um, it's not healthy for you or for them.

They need to realize that if you want to get anywhere in life, you have to do your homework.

And, you know, that's yeah, it's it it's it's hard though, because you get so vested in in your child.

But um, I think that it just like with the with the visuals, I will try that.

I would recommend everyone try to stop doing your parent, your your your parenting homework.

Yes, let it go.

Please, you are not the homework secretary, and homework is not a predictor of success either.

It really isn't.

Thank God.

It's not.

Like, and and there's very there's very little research that shows doing homework actually improves information retention and helps them understand what they're learning in class.

So homework isn't is a is a joke overall.

There's a great book called The Homework Myth that breaks down uh you know homework and its predictor of success.

And does it actually help?

It doesn't.

It's a it's uh it's a it's real, it's nonsense that just adds stress.

You know, in the perfect world, the kid would come home from school and be outside for hours and hours and hours with peers and come home when the streetlights came on.

That that would be the way to have the healthiest, happiest, and most prepared for life kids is if they go to school all day, learn, and follow the rules of school, and then they're literally out in the community all day long, which is very safe for kids, much safer than the virtual world, um, for them to go outside and play for hours and come home for dinner and go to sleep.

That would be the way the way for kids to be the healthiest.

Yeah.

And that goes back to your earlier conversation about forming those relationships, having other people to feed in, making those experiences, which all build up your executive functioning.

So I think that's a nice, nice way to tie it all back together again.

Um, I I did forewarn you that I like to end my podcast with three top tips.

Um, I think you've given lots of good tips today and lots of uh interesting uh information that I think a lot of uh parents will be digesting.

But what three top tips would you give my listeners that they could take away in their back pockets?

Yeah, so uh, you know, one of the biggest things I think we touched on this today is number one, do your best to keep home and school separate.

Uh so ensure that, you know, they're able to go to school all day, be a student, focus on that, and they come home and you're not asking them about grades, you're not asking them about homework, none of those things.

Keep those things separate.

So don't bring the stresses of school into the home.

Allow your child to have their school identity, their home identity, and all of that.

Uh, you know, number two is you have to focus on an identity outside of the home.

So you need to make sure that your child is involved in as many different things as possible, varied experiences is the name of the game.

Uh and then number three, uh, the best thing for you to do is to sit down with your partner, your spouse, a trusted friend if you're a single parent, and you need to take a look at your child's overall experiences and their screen use.

So, how many hours a day is your child on screens?

How many hours are they on the internet?

How many hours are they on social media?

You know, YouTube and Snapchat are social media.

So you need to analyze, you know, you want your child to have real world skills, which is executive functioning skills, but the majority of their life is spent in the virtual world.

Uh so sit down with your spouse and really analyze what your child is doing on a day-to-day basis.

And if they're on screens too much, uh, I'm sorry, it's not like getting your house cleaned or getting your lawn mode.

This is not something you can delegate onto a professional.

Uh, you can't get them in therapy or get them in counseling or get them in a group and get a therapist to convince them to be on screens less or teach them non-screen based activities.

Every single parent is just like, why can't they have the skills?

Why can't they, why can't they balance?

Why can't there be a balance?

If they have ADHD, the chances of a balance are pretty much slim and none.

I'm sorry.

Like they're their ability to balance it unless you're really, really, really on top of things as an authoritative parent, which is exhausting and very hard to do.

So this concept of a skills, concept of balance, you can't just get them in talk therapy over a screen addiction.

And think about what that how that is to the child.

You're the one who bought them the phone, you're the one who pays the monthly payment for a phone.

And now they have to go talk to a therapist every week about the phone that you bought for them that you're too scared to remove from their lives.

Uh, you know, that's that's not fair to the kid.

Uh so that's something that to really analyze with uh with a trusted partner.

Yeah, you know, uh, I I I think, you know, I don't know if they have this in America, but they have here, they have like dry January, you know, and it's a month that everyone gives up drinking.

Yeah, we need to do something like that with their children children and have, you know, screen.

I think every a screen free month should do that.

But you know, uh everyone would love to do it, but the number one thing, the number one thing that keeps parents from doing what they know they have to do is fear.

I mentioned it earlier, how their face turns ghost white.

All the parents out there that know their kid is so addicted and it's it's literally ruining their lives and hurting them.

The number one thing that keeps them from doing anything is fear.

Like that there really should be a dry January.

Yeah, go a month without screens and see how.

And you also challenge the parents to do it too, other than for their working thing.

Because honestly, like uh parents also, you know, you see them with their, you know, uh you were in speech and language originally, you know, kids are not learning speech and language because the parents are on their phones so much that they're not talking to their children anymore.

And so we're having an increase in speech and language issues.

So I think it's not just the kids, it's also parents, and thinking about how we can do it.

And I use a tip in my house, which is because to avoid the the you know the the taking of of devices back, I just turn off the Wi-Fi.

And that is and that is it.

And so so many of the examples that you've described today are you being a strong, authoritative parent, but always doing it with love and limits.

And how old is your daughter now?

Fourteen.

Fourteen.

And she's and you said she swims and things like that.

And what else does she do?

She bikes, it's theater, singing, and um, you know, doing dances.

So that's that's executive function.

What you just said.

It's not time management organization.

Doing those things, that's executive functions.

Her biking, her dancing, her swimming.

You said she reminds her other friends to do their homework.

You've completely removed yourself from homework, you turn the Wi-Fi off.

You that is real educated, strong parenting.

You have gay, you've given more case studies and more examples than I have today of what parents need to do.

That is beautiful.

But it wasn't easy.

There was a road, and I have to tell everyone it's now reaping the benefits of a daughter who has a life outside of school and outside of you.

Well, and she does stuff.

She she okay, she she will write me a presentation on because I told her money doesn't grow on trees.

So she decided to write a presentation on why money does, and and then figured out that it doesn't, because she, you know, researched and actually, you know what you're right, mommy.

But she goes and writes scripts, uh, she writes movie scripts and she writes books and stuff like that.

She does a lot of stuff now on her own motivation.

There you have it.

So is the think of what you just said that speaks volumes on her own motivation.

Yeah.

How many of the youth today, Gen Z, don't have their own motivation?

Their only motivation is this is a phone, and that's it.

So your daughter has her own motivation, her own things that drive her.

And she's going to be successful in college, university, career.

I can tell you right now, she's going to be successful later in life because of the things you have her involved in school and grades, whatever.

Those are becoming more and more meaningless in this age of AI and all this other stuff.

It is people skills, not computer skills.

Parents with screen addicted kids love to just go through all these cognitive distortions and say, oh, screens are the way of the world and they need to have computer skills and they need to have phone skills.

It is people skills that are going to be the skill of the future.

If not, you'll be replaced by a robot.

You'll be replaced by AI.

You need to be able to communicate with people, work in a team, negotiate, be flexible.

And the only way you're going to be able to do that is to have your own motivation, like you said.

And it is her dance and her swimming and her biking.

Those are the things that are going to make her successful, not science and math and social studies.

It is her experiences that are setting her up for lifelong success and to be able to move out of your house and get married and have her own family, as a side from learning the periodic table.

Oh God, she hates periodic table.

But and for all listeners out there, I'm not living in a perfect house either.

We do have fights over screen time.

She does become dysregulated, like all the things you said.

I turn off the Wi-Fi to just disassociate myself from it.

And then she's got to go do something else.

It looks like a pretty perfect house to me, I gotta tell you.

I gotta like that that that that background there, that house is clean.

If I can show you this background behind me, it oh my gosh.

Crazy.

Yeah.

Well, you know what?

And I think it knowledge is power, and that's why I started this podcast because the more information that parents can listen to, the more that isn't just crap that's on social media, which people unfortunately do believe.

And you know, there's so many misinformation and myths, and it's just it drives me crazy as well.

And I don't even imbibe that kind of stuff.

But it's we all want as parents to find what's going to work for our children, and we all want them to be successful, and that's a universal regardless of what parenting you do.

But, you know, listening to experts like yourself, learning about the research, and I encourage parents to, you know, go to Dr.

Barkley's uh YouTube.

That's a good YouTube.

Look at the research, base your knowledge in fact, empower yourself with actual research that's being done and validated, and then move forward and then find the solutions that work for your child.

And and some of them are hard, you know, and also look internally in terms of your own behavior because a lot of us will have ADHD as well.

And how much screen time are you spending?

Because they do model after you.

So what you do, they will do.

Um, so that's super important as well.

It's not all about us forming them.

We also, you know, need to look inward.

I've learned more probably from my daughter than I knew beforehand in my quest to help her, you know?

There you go.

Yeah.

Do you do you have one daughter?

Just one daughter, thankfully.

But uh, yeah.

And actually, you know, I am planning on fostering uh next year.

So I think that, you know, uh neurodiversity and trauma are very similar.

And so I'm hoping the skills I've learned with my daughter could apply to another child.

Well, they are in good hands with you, I'll tell you that much.

Fingers crossed.

Thank you very much.

You're very kind, Michael.

Thank you very much for coming and sharing your knowledge and all of your details for people that are interested.

You work internationally, not just in the US.

Absolutely.

Um, so I will have those links in the show notes for people who would like to reach out and learn more from you.

Yeah, that'd be great.

Yeah.

Uh I I have my book coming out probably right around the time when uh when uh when when this is being launched.

So uh you guys can click those links in the show notes to the website and uh grab my book and my workbook and uh reach out to me.

Uh my email, my cell phone number are right on the website.

So if you listen to this podcast and found it interesting, you can talk directly to me and we can chat about it.

So so definitely reach out.

Anyone, anyone willing to listen to any of my podcasts or anything like that, I would love to chat with you and get to know you as well.

Excellent.

Thank you very much, Michael.

Have a good evening.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you for listening, Send Parenting Tribe.

Michael's book, The Executive Function Playbook, Building Independence in Kids of ADHD, is available for pre-order in the link in the show notes.

I'd really recommend picking up a copy.

Next week, you if you've ever wondered about anything to do with EHTP's educational health care plans, I would really recommend you come and listen.

Eliza Fricker, who you might know from Can't Not Won't, and Dr.

Abigail Fisher, who works with Dr.

Naomi Fisher, have collaborated together to create this amazing book, which just answers all your questions you could possibly have about EHTPs, from knowing when to apply, how to navigate the process, and then what actually happens afterwards, how to deal with the tribunals.

It's simple, it's got fabulous cartoons that just depict how I know I felt while I was going through the process.

So it's a must-listen if this is in your orbit right now.

So join us next week for that one.

Have a good week, everyone.