Hello, and welcome to the Texas trib Cast for Tuesday, September sixteenth.

I'm Eleanor Klibanoff Law and politics reporter, alongside as always editor in chief Matthew Watkins.

Welcome back, Thank you.

I was extraordinarily tempted to not return to work after a couple of weeks off.

I will tell you this, though I.

Was in Europe and I've heard of it.

I am alarmed to tell you that the Europeans very aware of Texas redistricting.

Interesting.

I promise I did not bring this up.

I promise.

Say you're from Texas, you know Texas first of all the reactions it gets.

I was with a traveling other friend from New York.

It's like the two places people know in New York Texas, and and got a lot of reactions, a lot like oh man, Texas, Like oh what's going on there?

Nothing makes me more patriotic or more Texas might bring my Texas allegiance out more than a European trying to tell me that they don't like how we're doing things here.

Yeah, yeah, I feel that it used to be they would associate it with George Bush.

You know, they'd be like, oh, yeah, you must be like a George Bush guy.

Apparently now it's redistrict team, right.

Yeah, yeah, and again in Europe, I am a George Bush guy.

You know.

Don't try and tell me how to feel about my elected officials.

Yeah, yeah, no, So that was very alarming.

I tried to escape it.

I could not.

Well, that sounds that's terrible, especially Germans.

The Germans very alarmed about everything.

I was like, yeah, I gotta calm down a little bit.

It's not really, it's gonna be fine anyway.

That's not what we're here to talk about this week.

We have for finally, at lease a little bit moved on from the redistricting haha and have found ourselves in another, you know, major national news story here in Texas.

So this week we're going to be digging into sort of the college campus free speech wars that we've seen really bubbling up over the last couple of years that has culminated, perhaps that's optimistic in an incident with Texas A and M where a professor was fired after a confrontation with a student over gender identity content in a children's literature course.

You know, this is just the latest in an ongoing series of clashes at Texas A and M at Texas universities more generally nationally, on college campuses over diversity, equity and inclusion, gender identity, what is taught and who can say?

What you know?

Similarly, the day after this incident, a Texas State professor was fired after he was accused of inciting violence while speaking at a socialism conference.

So just a lot happening all at once.

So joining us to talk through the nuances of these issues is Texas Tribune Higher ed reporter Jessica Priest.

Jessica, thank you for joining us, Thank you for having me.

Jessica is actually in Indiana this time.

YEA.

Loyal listeners of the podcast will know that snaeha last week I accused of being in Indiana, which he was actually in Illinois, So we said, Jessica to.

Indiana, to Indiana, just to make sure we had one.

We are also joined by Zach Greenberg, faculty legal defense counsel at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression.

Where are you, Zach.

We're in the great city of Philadelphia.

Thanks for having me.

H, that's not Indiana or Illinois or Texas City Champions.

Yeah, Jessica, let's start with you, and maybe you can sort of just give us an overview of what happened and where things stand with Texas A and M.

Oh gosh, where did we get?

Okay?

So I think it was Monday.

State Representative Brian Harrison tweeted started a Twitter thread where he shared a video that was taken in a course, a literature course at Texas A and m.

It's important to note that the video and the class in question that he shows happened over the summer.

So it was a summer class, and it was about children's literature, and it was for college students, for juniors and seniors in college, not children.

And the video depicts it doesn't show anyone's face, but it's clear from watching the video you hear a student talking to the professor and you know, respectfully asking or asking or confronting her about why she is teaching about gender in the course.

The student says that it's, you know, against her religious beliefs and argues that it's also against President Trump's executive order.

We haven't spoken with the student, but I believe she's referring to an executive order the president issued in January that basically says, you know, the federal government only recognizes two genders and instructs the federal agencies directs them to not fund any projects that, in his view, would promote gender ideology.

So it's not this executive order is not a law.

I think that's also important for people to know.

So my reporting has been that there is no federal or state law that prohibits, you know, a college professor from teaching about gender.

That was a very long.

Explation that being said Brian Harrison, the state representative who posted this, who is an aggie and also perhaps the most conservative member of a very conservative.

Legislature and a social media recontoire right right like he is, gets much of what he is known for is sort of identifying these things on college campus, is highlighting and demanding for significant penalties, including firing.

Right and has has been pretty effective, particularly at his alma mater, of drawing attention to these things and bringing changes to it, really pushing the idea that these universities, particularly A and M, in his mind, are promoting an ideology that doesn't align with the values of the state or or what he thinks the university should be teaching, and therefore that you know, what he would call in doctor nation should be should be stopped and eliminated, especially right, and in.

This case he did sort of by escalating this.

He called for or Jessica to talk a little about like what the HR side of this, Like what happened then in terms of penalties.

Yeah.

So in the tweet thread, so in addition to the video of the student, you know where you hear the student and the professor talking, he also shared what appears to be like a recording of either a phone call or an in person meeting with the university president, President Mark Welsh.

And in the video, President Welsh appears to defend the teacher or the professor and what she's teaching and initially tell the student that, you know, it's not happening.

Firing her is not going to be happening.

It's important to note that we don't have the full conversation, We don't know the full context, but you know, it appears that he initially was was hesitant to discipline in this case.

But after the so that conversation we believe took place like over the summer, and then this tweet was in September, and you know, within days of this kind of going viral, he appears to have changed his mind and demoted the dean and the department head and ultimately he terminated the professor in this In this case, and the cited reason was that the course did not align with the course content did not align with the course catalog description.

He said, it's it's about academic responsibility rather than academic freedom, Like we students should, I guess when they're looking at the catalog know what they're signing up for.

So yeah, Zach, let's.

Bring you in on this.

I mean, what what do you sort of make of this whole incident and the you know, this students argument, the faculty argument, and the administrator's argument.

Yeah, we defend academic freedom here at Fire, the idea that professors have the right to discuss these controversial issues in class areas, within their expertise and any breathing room to discuss these issues.

And it's really sad to see professors being fired for their in class teaching and pedagogy.

I know there was a dispute with the student and the professor about what exactly the law was the student's disruption in class, but we do feel that universities should resolve these issues taking a new account the societal importance we have for academic freedom and the free change of ideas at a public university bound by the First Amendment.

Zach, I want to ask you a little bit about to kind of dive into this question of First Amendment freedom of speech and academic freedom and how that kind of fits in there, right, because we, of course know the First Amendment protects people's right to say things, including things that are offensive, and not be punished by the government for it, except for you know, small example of the whole like yelling fire in the crowded movie theater and all that kind of stuff.

But then there's the separate kind of conversation around academic freedom, right, and this idea of not wanting the government to interfere too much with the the you know, what's being taught and what's being researched.

I mean, this is a state school.

How does the concept of academic freedom fit into the You know, this isn't a professor who got fired for going out on the street and saying something offensive.

This is something that was said.

Yeah, we're going to get to that that this was something that was said in the classroom.

So how, if at all, should we or the courts look at how that played out.

Yeah, the Supreme Court said that academic freedom is a spectual concern of the First Amendment, which doesn't tolerate laws that cast a palid orthodoxy on the classroom.

And the general idea is that academic institutions in America should be places where students and professors are the most free to discuss their ideas, more so than any other institution in our society, just because of the purpose of the university and the importance of these institutions to our society.

And so when it comes to these disputes of what professors say in class, you know, the professors teaching and their research, and there the main discussion of ideas that's really the.

Core of their job.

Dute is their job responsibilities, and they're trying to engage our students to try to get them to discuss these ideas and really participate in these debates we're having in our society.

And for a university to fire professor for having this discussion, even if it may be offensive to students or controversial out there, it's really the opposite of the goals of the university.

And that use a free speech and academic freedom.

How does that break down though, because I think that there's there is a question here in this case about was she teaching what she should have been teaching in the course?

Right?

I am also a text saying a.

Graduate, we we've made it what eight minutes before?

Thank you, thank you, thank you very much.

Yes, it's been a very long time since I've been in the classroom, and I know a lot of things have changed, But I do remember a very specific class at A and M.

It was a philosophy class, I think maybe even an intro to philosophy class, and it was taught by a lecturer whose research interest was truth commissions, you know, this whole like you know, South Africa or other places having these and their effectiveness and everything like that, and she decided that this course was going to be about that as opposed to like more broad philosophy, which it was an interesting course, it was also not the course I signed up for.

And it doesn't seem like completely unreasonable for a you know, AA student to be upset about something like that and be for a school to be like, no, you need to like teach what's actually like on the syllabus and what we're asking you to teach here that seems to be somewhat the case that Welsh the President is arguing is that she didn't teach how this course was advertised.

How do you sort of see that factor in this conversation.

Yeah, you're right, and that if you have a physics professor and all they do is talk about political issues the entire time, I think you can make an argument the professor is not teaching the course as it's supposed to be taught, actually, depending on what is in the syllabus and what is the purpose of the course.

And of course backing members need some breathing room to go off topics some of the time, just to share their expertise and make the class a little more engaging.

And our argument is.

That the determination of what is taught and how it should be taught, that's to be made at the university academic faculty level, right at cheap, a determination by the factory member that apartment and share the people who are most well versed and experts in this category.

It was made by administrative politician.

You can see that can be very easily abused to target professors who talk about controversial issues.

So you're right, it's definitely an issue.

It's definitely a limited academic freedom of not teaching the class as advertised, not giving students proper notice of what's being taught.

But if that is going to be a determination the professor is unfit to teach, that should be at the academic level.

I mean, just to sort of widen this out beyond this incident, I mean, we have seen I mean, if you just take chexas A and M, we've seen a lot of these classes.

But also, you know, statewide and nationally, why are college campus is such sort of hotbeds of these free speech issues?

And it has that always been the case, or are we seeing are we in a moment of particular clashes?

I guess I think it's really always been the case.

You can think at stories about the founding fathers, you know, raising hell fare universities, the first free speed zones to put in place at the combat protests against the Vietnam War.

So I think the university has really always been areas where students and factor members feel free to express themselves and discuss their ideas, and naturally then involves some opposition from those on campus and off campus too.

Is happy at the universities because they are taxpayer funded, right, They're part of our communities, part of our society, and so you're always going to see the precarious situation of universities in our society how they operate.

Which is why having academic freedom for both the institution and for the individual professor is so important because in many ways they are kind.

Of majoritarian principles.

Right, we have this freedom to discuss ideas that are controversial at our offensive we're talking about things that everyone agrees with.

Tops two equals four, the sky is blue.

You don't need academic freedom of free speech.

You need it when you do draw the ire of politicians and government officials who want.

To censor you.

Disic.

I wonder what you make of Welsh's specific argument here.

I mean, we talked about it like how it could present a different case.

On the other hand, you know, the firing happened months after the incident happened, as you mentioned, Jessica, And also you know, I think there are probably a lot of people within the INN faculty and another university saying like, Okay, is this actually the reason or is this a convenient excuse to get rid of someone who is bringing a lot of intense political pressure to the university from people like Brian Harrison, but even more so from folks like Governor Greg Abbott who has tweeted about this and other leaders.

They don't want this kind of attention right now.

Yeah, So your question is what I make of.

His decision and his explanation for the decision.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that university presidents, I mean I would not want President Welsh's job right now, in a very difficult job.

So it's like he has kind of he has a lot of constituents, right, so he I feel like he needs to make lawmakers happy to keep his job, but he also needs the trust of the faculty and so so I think he that may be why he decided what he decided.

He also the very conservative Board of regents.

Shows like who has the power here?

Right?

Is like too, you know, event should just sort of say like well this and again, based like you said, on the limited view we have of this meeting where he originally said like we're not going to fire this this professor, then we have a social media backlash led by state lawmakers and the governor and others, and then the professor is fired.

It's like it shows like the levers of power that that influence.

Until I started reporting on Higher Ed, like I didn't really understand all those levers, and I think it's important for people to know that, Like, you know, these boards of regents are appointed by the governors, so there in many cases like in lockstep with him.

And this comes after a legislative session where once again Higher Ed sort of saw some of it's some of that freedom curtailed.

In Texas, they passed a The law goes into effect in January, so it's not in effect yet, but there will be a law in effect that gainst regents, you know, these govern governor appointed regents more control over curriculum.

This comes after they banned any programs related to diversity, equity inclusion at colleges and universities.

I mean, really seeing a tightening of you know, of the control over what is taught.

It's been amazing to watch how much the governance and culture has changed these universities in recent years.

I mean going back to twenty nineteen when lawmakers passed their sort of free speech on campus bill, and that bill was passed, you know, largely out of concern that conservative voices were sort of being shouted down and that they needed to be protected, and that you know, administrators and professors and other leaders at the universities were too liberal.

We had twenty twenty happen after that, you know, the George Floyd protests, the reactions there, and there's just been so much of a swing back, whether it's who's leading these universities.

You've seen a lot of different university presidents leave and politicians, very conservative politicians being put in a lot of those major you know, president or chancellor positions you have, you know, new you mentioned the DEI rules, some of these rules about what can and can apt be taught, and just a much swifter reaction to you know, any kind of incident like this, It does very much seem whether it's at Texas A and M, whether it's at Texas State with the professor you mentioned earlier, there was an incident on the Texas Tech campus where a student was expelled very quickly and removed after you know, saying admittedly some pretty terrible things about the death of Charlie Kirk on campus, right, but the swiftness at which these administrators are taking action really feels like, Jessica, it has created a sort of culture change on these campuses in just like the past like half decade.

Would you agree with that?

Yes, I would agree with that.

Yeah, and just a small correction, Eleanor like the law that you're mentioning, Senate Bill thirty seven, part of it has gone into effect, and that part the part of the law that has gone into effect basically either did away or significantly weakened.

Like faculty representative bodies in higher ed so they're largely I mean, they've always been an advisory but they were elected by their other faculty members and advised the administration on academic matters, and now their power is significantly weakened.

Zach.

Have you felt this sort of pendulum swing and sort of free speech at the center of all of this.

Yeah, it's almost like a political football, right.

It's like whatever party is in power, whatever they believe the situation to be, they're gonna most likely abuse the free speech rights of those around them.

It's almost like the parties don't really have any principles at all.

That is, you know, it's all about the raw power, and so free speech ideally should be this societal wide neutral principle, general applicability that it protects everybody equally no matter who you are, what you say.

But we're seeing free speech kind of be warped into a rallying cry for those outside of power, and then once they get in there, it's just everyone's a nail and there a hammer, and they see this happening, you know right now.

He turned out on the Natate of America right saying that in a prosecute hate speech, like it's happening right before our eyes.

That could be a woke talking point five years ago, and it's happening, you know that September sixteenth, you know, twenty twenty five.

So yeah, we're literally seeing it in our in our lifetimes, our in our very short political light.

What should I say?

You know, time spans over here that like, yeah, this issue is being very warped.

And I think it would be worthwhile for university presidents, especially politicians who support universities, to have a backbone to be principal, to support free speech, even for those that they disagree with.

I mean, I think you mentioned already, Charlie Kirk.

I mean I think a historian, you know, over the last that half decade even longer, like a real character in these debates, you know, Kirk obviously a right wing political activist who was assassinated last week in Utah while on a college campus, sort of doing what he became best known for, which was hosting these debates and coming to college campuses really trying to, you know, I think, in some ways, whether intentionally or not, like test the limits of these free speech protections for views that maybe are not as widely accepted on college campuses.

Zach, can you just talk a little bit bit about you know, Charlie Kirk and Turning Point USA and sort of the role they played in this arena of college free speech.

Yeah, I mean, Charlie Kirk found it to a Point USA to provide a counterbalance to what he saw as a liberal bias on campus.

It's the conservative student group.

It's been around for you know a while now.

They're an off censored group.

We've defended them when they've gotten their funding revoked, when the group's got de recognized, their speakers get disinvited only because they do service as counterbalance.

And yeah, and because of that activist activist, they've definitely gotten a reputation.

You know, They've been opposed by many liberal groups of course, and I think the reaction to Charlie Kirk's assassination on the left is something we've seen against Your Point USA for a while.

Now that you know this, he essentially got what was coming, and you know, this was a good thing.

And that's you know, stand to see because it was a political assassination.

It was a violent response to free speech.

And you know, if you're going to defend a free speech if defended for everybody, even the groups, then individuals that you disagree with.

I found it so interesting.

I was looking at Fire's website or your group's website, the Students under Fire report that found that over the last five years and Turning Point USA was one of was the most targeted campus group, tied with Students for Justice in Palestine, which is interesting of just like you know, again, free speech, it's not about like you know which side you like, it's like both.

It has to extend to everyone.

Yeah, I stayed p the last couple of years, right with the Gods of Conflict.

I feel like that that group's been around for while, they're very active on campus, they're able to organized.

As a result, they get censored a lot, so so almost you put your neck out there and they're gonna get bopped un fortunately.

Right, Yeah, Jessica, how have we seen Texas lawmakers respond to the assassination of Kirk?

I mean both.

I think many of them were like personally friends with him and knew him and sort of supported him politically.

But then also you know, on their their response to the social media responses, this is kicked off.

I haven't talked to any personally, but just following their social media, you can see that they're upset when people are making light of Charlie Kirk's death or disparaging him in his legacy in some way, or I don't know, celebrating his death and calling for uh, for those people to be for those who are expressing those opinions to face consequences, whether it be firing or yeah, mostly just losing your job, like we've seen.

I don't know that we've seen it in Texas, but I think nationally there have been professors who've been terminated for opinions that they've expressed online.

And then here in Texas, a colleague of mine worked on a story about you know, the TEA, the Texas Education Administration Association administration, you know, I guess finding one hundred something teachers maybe did this and pursuing their teaching license.

Yeah, I think.

I mean Mike Marath, the you know, commissioner saying that they would not just fire teachers who were found to have made you know, and come and say deemed inappropriate, but revoke their their teaching licenses.

You said, yeah, which.

Is kind of like, I mean, I still need to read up on that reporting.

But that's kind of like extraordinary if you think about like our shortage of teachers like an extraordinary kind of act.

But on the other hand, Zach, I mean, I'm not you know, I wouldn't really want my kindergarten teacher celebrating the murder of someone on a college campus, right, I mean, walk me through how you think about this, right, I mean, I think there are reasonable reasonable there's a reasonable urge to be angry at the people who celebrated the murder of a human being for you know, exercising his free speech.

Right.

How do you view kind of that reaction, you know, when when you see things like what's what's what's happening in Texas?

Yeah, I mean, if you're a public university or a public employee in general, you have the right to comment on political using your private capacities and you speaking on social media talking about Charlie Kirk.

As a legal standard, the government can come back and say your speech is disruptive to the institution that because your speech renders you unfit, the teacher fit to do your job, we can punish you for that.

So it's really a balancing task between the individual's right to express their political views of the First Amendment and then the institutions interests and ensuring smooth operations.

And that's a pretty high bar, right.

You really have to clear, you know, show a lot of disruption, I really manifest the fitness to do your job to overcome someone fundamental first mode rights.

An example is a university professor perhaps continually says, you know, I'm a racist.

I can't teach black students.

You know, the students I certainly feel uncomfortable of gobal into the university and being part of the class because the professor has these racial views.

But many of the situations it is a teacher or a public employee just expressing themselves, particularly just express themselves about Charlie Kirk, in their views about him, and unless the university or the institution shows that, you know, this individual can longer be a functioning teacher or a nurser can't do their job and teachings effectively, then I think the university, then the university intitutions shouldn't allow the person to keep their job, because you know, we want to preserve this right to comment on political views, even if it is offensive to others.

It's been a disappointing week, you know.

I mean, of course, like the assassination of Charlie Kirk is a terrible, terrible event that and of itself makes for a terrible week.

You would hope in a healthy and functioning democracy in society that it wouldn't then immediately break down into this side does this, this side does this, This side is worse, and we would maybe view ourselves on the side of maybe people who think we should be able to talk about things and not be murdered for them, and people who don't someone that yeah, right, and not try to cast blame on anyone other than who's pushing for you know, who's who's condoning or supporting that kind of violence.

We do not seem to be at that place right now as a society or state or anywhere else.

And I would love to see us.

Get to that.

Place, right, I mean, it's I mean, and we have the same conversation on some I mean, obviously, the assassination of Charlie Kirk is such a you know, unprecedented thing, but it is like it does remind me in some ways of the conversations we have after like a school shooting, where it's like, can we not just like grieve this and talk about you know, like how does this become politicized so quickly?

But on all sides, And it just feels like we are not at a high point of being able to discuss you know, horrible human tragedies and politics in the same conversation without sort of devolving into our worst our selves at that.

Point, we're really We're going to say at the cancel culture part of the tragedy cycle, you hear about this where like the tragedy happens, people express outrage or grief, and then people criticize those people expressing average and grief and they lose their jobs.

The winner fires first case we ever had two thousand and one was a professor who said that nine to eleven was a good thing, that we're they're glad this win Towers went down and that you know, this is a happy thing, and you can imagine the reaction that got in two thousand and one, right, and so seeing happening right now, right, you have a tragedy.

Try to Kirk assassinated.

People comment on it now.

There's a huge wash this out there.

I think fifty thousand people that are being fired from their jobs or being contacted with their employers for what they say.

So it is definitely a sad day for America and I think this should definitely stop happening.

Do you have any thoughts?

I hate to put you on the spot, but like, do you have any thoughts on what needs to happen to get us out of this cycle?

I think it's kind of just of building a free speech culture, like recognizing that we're all human beings, will live in America, we all have free speech almost like a basic are sending of respect, like you wouldn't want this done to you in five years, don't do it to us, you know, Like we shouldn't have canceled the people that were criticizing George Floyd.

We shouldn't cancel people that are criticizing Charlie Kirk.

The next person contestinant we shouldn't cancel those people either, So I think that has to stop somewhere.

And it said, it keeps kind of fueling and getting worse and worse.

But I know more people that recognize the value of free speech.

I think they'll understand why this is harmful to our sido fabric and our nation and they'll stop it.

I mean, I think in some ways the through line also is like you know, this professor being fired or of you know people sort of it's like this like intense blowback one hundred and eighty teachers investigated for speaking you know, ill of Charlie Kirk is like the people who never will be actually penalized for this right.

They're not actually going to take one hundred and eighty teachers to you know, or open themselves up to that many lawsuits or whatever.

But it's just sort of the effect on free speech again, whether it's someone something you support or something you don't of, Like, you know, I just won't share my opinion for fear that I could be penalized for it.

Yeah, I mean it.

It would also just be nice to get to a place where, like we are, we're not just talking to each other, but we're talking to each other in a way where we're like seeking to understand and be understood as opposed to like scoring points and humiliating or caricaturing the other side.

But we are not at that place right now.

But I'm curious, like to your point about a Chilian effect and everything like that, Jessica, I mean, what do you think about what do you hear, if anything, from people on these college campuses.

I mean, do you think that that Chilian effect is happening?

How are people, professors and others reacting to what has happened in the last few weeks all of.

This, Yeah, I mean it's a mix.

Like I've heard from professors saying that they are themselves like courting their own lectures to kind of have as like evidence if anything were to be shared on social media so they could have the full context.

I've heard some are self censoring, that they're just not going to talk about certain topics anymore because they don't want to get in trouble.

And then there are others who feel like, I'm going to keep teaching because that's in the best interest of my students, and that's who I'm here for.

The American Association of university professors put out a survey I think the week before this stuff with Texas A and m happened that found like twenty I think it was a twenty five percent of the respondents in Texas we're looking for jobs outside of the state just because of the political climate here.

So it's not looking good.

Yeah.

Wow, Well, I imagine this is, like many things we talked about on here, going to be continuing to develop an unfold and nothing will be resolved.

Despite your you know, your optimism about where we might all end up as a I.

Didn't it was opts.

I just wish yes, right, your fan fiction about the future of American democracy.

Well, I just want to really thank Jessica and Zach you both for joining us and taking the time and appreciate it.

Thank you, thanks for having us.

You can get the Trip Cast anywhere you get your podcasts, as well as on YouTube.

Our producers are Rob and Chris and we will see you next week.