William J. Stokes: Welcome to the Sound On Sound Electronic Music podcast channel. My name is William J. Stokes, and this is My Life In Modules, a podcast about modular synthesis, where each episode I invite a guest to select the synth modules that have meant the most to them and talk about why, before treating us to an exclusive performance using only that modest selection. It is a Buchla special this episode because I'm joined by American electronic musician and Buchla specialist Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith. It makes perfect sense that Kaitlyn has collaborated closely with the great Suzanne Ciani, another Buchla luminary, who was of course a guest on this very podcast a few episodes ago, but that's by no means the extent of her lists of musical fans and collaborators with remixes of her work including Hot Chip’s Joe Goddard, Fourtet and on the other side she herself has reworked music by the likes of Max Richter and The Album Leaf. Kaitlyn's new album, Gush, explores themes of love, flirtation, peacock moments and empathy for objects and I'll testify it is a brilliant Papa Jason record bursting with her lush, compositional style and some pretty stunning sound design as well. Kaitlyn, welcome to the podcast. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Thank-you. Thank-you so much for that introduction and I also love that you highlighted peacock moments because I haven't heard anyone use that yet.  William J. Stokes: So I mean, I will confess yeah, there was a phrase that jumped out to me from the press release, but I really enjoy it. What does that mean to you, that phrase? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: It's, well it's funny because I think I said it in passing in an interview and so I love that that stuck in the press release because it wasn't intended to stick in there but it was more about those, you know the way that a peacock demonstrates like its performance when it's trying to introduce itself in its brilliance and like the album is all about the experiencing the genius of everything, so it's all about having a relationship with something in that moment where it's showing you its brilliance, so that's what it was referring to.  William J. Stokes: It's not really a sort of a particularly common thing these days that people would allow themselves that level of display of, you know, whether it's skill or whether it's just sort of creative zeal. It feels kind of like, I dunno, that we like to hide the ball somehow, especially in electronic music I find, people like to kind of, you know, be sort of hunched over and not really very exuberant and then every now and again when someone is kind of a bit more out there with showing you, you know, showing what they can do, it feels almost jarring. Was that a bit of a challenge to kind of, to be able to get to that place where you could sort of present it in that way? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Oh, well it's interesting because the album isn't so much about me doing that. I actually feel like anywhere I am in the album is like the opposite, where I'm like more in the pulled in version.  William J. Stokes: Oh okay, okay, several songs are making sense to me right now as you're talking, I realise you're gonna, okay, I get it. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: A lot of the album came into creation from me reading different design language literature and a lot of design language has personification and it is all about demonstrating through, you know, photos and through words, the excellence of something and I just really fell in love with that process. The book I was reading was called A Timeless Way of Building and that became a jumping point for me going further and further into different design language literature, so yeah it's less about like the energy of look at me and more about the energy of like, look at this and there's a blurb that I share with the album which is in the press release and one of the sentences in it is that the album is all about these look at this moments shared between two people where it's like taking the time to look at every single thing in existence as a design piece of genius artwork because at some point it was someone's masterpiece and then it's about that energy that's created when two people take that time to do that together.  William J. Stokes: Mmm, I love that. There's that I, as you're talking, that T.S. Eliot line, the flowers had the look of flowers that are looked at, sort of beholding the thing, the looking and the beholding of the thing as itself being such a rich exercise and yeah, it's funny isn't it, we often sort of forget to do that somehow with certain things and when, as you say in design language I, you know, I read a brilliant article not too long ago by, I think his name was Raymond Loewy and his insight into just how humans perceive stuff was just amazing, even though this guy was like in marketing, you know, it's something that artists so easily turn their noses up at. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Yeah. I mean, first of all, that's a beautiful line that you referenced and I know I find that there's just like, at least for my own creativity I found that there were so many parallels to think about, when you're referencing just like marketing language and like how you were just saying and like design language and because it feels it's like literature that's intended to be about the creative process, so I found it really inspiring to read.  William J. Stokes: Yeah. Oh, how interesting. Yeah, well I'll be hitting you up on email after this interview so you can send me the link to buy it. So as I mentioned there, Suzanne Ciani was a guest of mine on this podcast not too long ago. I mean, it feels almost pigeonholing of, you know, two female Buchla-using synthesists to say that that collaboration that you guys did was always going to happen, but it feels like a match made in heaven, wouldn't you say? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: We basically ran into each other because we were living in the same small town and met at a dinner party.  William J. Stokes: Right. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: And then in the conversation of getting to know each other, just as like two community members at a dinner party, we were both saying what do you do and each of us were like, oh I'm a composer, I'm a musician, I make music with electronic instruments and then of course, like as we went further down the questioning and I said like what kind of electronic instruments and she said Buchla and I was like oh my gosh, I know exactly who you are because there's so many. William J. Stokes: I would've loved to see that penny drop moment. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: And at the time she wasn't playing Buchla instruments that much. I think she was just beginning to do a tour with, I'm trying to remember the artist she was touring with, so it was a really neat time to be around someone that was like falling in love with the Buchla again, yeah it was a really special collaboration. William J. Stokes: Did you sort of, do you feel like you'd learned anything in particular sort of that you could take away with you about using these instruments, from her in that process? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Tool they're using. I'm learning from someone and I love learning like how different everyone approaches the same thing because for a while I used to think that, or I guess I'll phrase it differently, like I had an immature part of myself that used to think with electronic instruments that if you're using the same instrument, it'll probably sound the same and I feel like through that process and through different collaborations with other Buchla musicians, I learned that it really doesn't, like you could be using the exact same instrument with the exact same patch and it's gonna sound different, the same way, you know, two pianists are gonna sound different and that was a really cool experience for me because I think it really, I don't know, it just like instilled so much appreciation in me of like being able to be around other people in their craft and to have perspective into a whole other universe that I would never have access to because it's the same way, like any instrumentalist hangs out with another person who plays the same instrument and they're like, you have a whole partition of the music world that I'll never have access to and it's so special to be next to that. William J. Stokes: Absolutely. Mind expanding really and it really kind of it’s, whenever I'm in a conversation with somebody sort of in that way I just, sometimes I forget to say anything because I really just wanna try and absorb as much of their experience as I possibly can. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: And I mean like, I can't even really point to something specific just to answer your question because there's so many things that I appreciate about her and her process and like just, I think she's just a really wonderful person and a very intelligent person and it's almost like when you're around someone where you just appreciate them in their entirety, that it's not necessarily that you can like distill it to I learned this from this person, it's like you're just, you just appreciate them. William J. Stokes: And how did you discover Buchla? Were you into Eurorack first or, which order did it come in? In fact, I mean, I actually wanna know whether you were into Eurorack at all? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Well I should say Buchla first and then Eurorack, I've played with it here and there but I wouldn't necessarily say that it's something that I am into that much. I do appreciate Make Noise and 4ms and Studio Electronics, that's what it is, I just had to like relax my brain for a second. I started with Buchla and then I actually went from studying sound engineering and thinking that I wanted to study acoustics and designing how sound interfaces in architecture and then from there I went into sound engineering for recording, you know, like learning how to record and wanted to work in analogue studios and then at the same time I was studying classical guitar and orchestration and wanted to be a conductor and then was introduced to Buchla synthesisers and that was my doorway into synthesis and hadn't really interacted with software synthesis or just like any concepts of synthesis and then from Buchla, I started reaching out to different universities and it was at a time where Eurorack was just starting to become more popular and so it was really easy to reach out to universities that had old electronic equipment and ask them if I could come in and play on any of their old analogue gear and so from there I started just researching different vintage analogue synths and finding out what university had what and would go and do residencies and then started making music and sharing it and then got introduced to Eurorack. But I would still say I am not that versed in it because I feel like it's just one of those things where there's so much variety in it that I would need like time with every single module because I mean, you know, they're all so different.  William J. Stokes: And it's a language as well of course and it's a different language, you know, the way even the, I'm sure we'll get into this but the way that, you know, even the patch cable design is totally different, the way of, you know, the control signals are different and you know, I think there is a common misconception, particularly in modular if not in electronic music, in my opinion, that if you are able to feel competent and skilled at one thing then you are sort of by extension apparently competent and able with everything and it's not necessarily true, there are some synthesisers that certain people just don't, they're not, they're don't, they're not drawn to those particular instruments for one reason or another, whether it's the workflow or the sound or something and there are others that we are and it's just like say, you know, I sometimes think of it as like in an orchestra, you know, just because you can play one instrument in the string section it doesn't mean you can necessarily play all of them. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Yeah I know and I mean to be honest, I feel like I like to approach all instruments like personalities and I would never assume that like I can interact with every person, like it would be a new experience every single time and I feel like my confidence is in that I love to meet new people and I love to learn about someone and that's like where it is with instruments too, where it's like, I love to interact with a new instrument and get to know it, but I would never say like that I know how to play any like, I mean honestly I would say I don't know how to play anything because it's just like I have to get to know it.  William J. Stokes: Well with that I heard a great phrase about composition recently, I think it was Jeff Tweedy said, of Wilco, saying you can't really ever learn songwriting because once you've written a song, all you've learned is how to write that song and then you have to write another. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: That's so true. Oh my gosh, that's such a good quote. That really resonates.  William J. Stokes: Yeah right because you really are kind of yeah starting again really. Actually that's, there's another T.S. Eliot quote about, I'm a big T.S. Eliot fan in case you can’t tell, but he's just, he's like, there's this, there's I think it's East Coker in Four Quartets when he is, I can't believe I'm quoting T.S. Eliot in this podcast, this is terrible and I've done it twice now, but just every, I think he calls everything, you know, a fresh raid on the inarticulate, just again trying to say something that you can't say very well and then you go onto the next thing, you know, that's the mystery of it I suppose and in electronic music there's, you know, that's something that I think has always drawn me to your music is that you are, I consider you as an artist to be blending languages because you have a pop sensibility in your writing and you do sing but then there is this, there is also the abstract, there's the sound design element, there is the, you know, the sort of almost a very traditional pure type of electronic composition where you're really working with discreet, you know, circuits and simple waveforms and all that sort of thing. How do you find that those two co-exist in your kind of creative ecology? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Well, I guess it started out of necessity because, or I guess maybe another way of thinking about it is like it started out of hunger of like needing to find different jobs with music and so I was a sound designer for a while and like a studio assistant and like engineer and each one of those I did for like a good amount of time and so they became very natural to me and same with like transcribing and orchestrating and so I think like, it's like each time I go to make music, I just naturally draw from what do I have access to in my skillset and then my hope is that with every single creation there's like an introduction of something new that I'm learning since like learning is my inspiration button, it’s like what will always initiate a new creation, so I think it's like a combination of this is just naturally the language that I have to draw from. It's kind of like if someone grew up in France and they're also Spanish and like, you know, it's like those are their languages, so I think like sound design and orchestration just naturally comes out and then there's always an element of something new that I'm interested in.  William J. Stokes: You are essentially kind of slaloming around just these different kind of touch points in your own creative world really. I love that image actually because you know when people start to get really good at a language, they suddenly go oh I just thought a sentence in French or in Spanish, or something like that, they actually, it starts to make its way further inwards where they don't think about it so much, they just think in that mode and I guess, you know, when things become, it occurs to me that when things become really sort of natural in our vocabularies musically, it feels so intuitive to then join them together that you sometimes, I would imagine making Gush, I mean I suppose it's maybe a good question to ask, were there moments that you listened back to some mixes or the masters and you went oh wow, I didn't even realise that I'd combined that and that? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Oh that's interesting to think about. Maybe not in that exact like realisation but I'm curious if you're like this, like when I have had enough space from making something, it almost feels like I have amnesia where I'm like I don't know how that happened, yeah.  William J. Stokes: I know exactly what you mean. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Even when I'm playing it live, 'cause I'm like practicing it now for the live set, I'm like, I can see how I am making this but I don't remember it like happening.  William J. Stokes: I dunno what it is. There's, I think that's such a good way of putting it because there is that amnesia where it's like the, something about the connections that were happening in, for me anyway, it's like the connections that were happening in my brain to make me create a patch in a certain way. It's like that thing with Jeff Tweedy, like I only learned how to do that one patch and now I've forgotten it completely and I can't, I have no idea. I've always struggled a bit with like, you know, those kind of go-to patching methods, like oh, you know, okay sure, there's something like you can make drums if you send an envelope to the pitch of a, you know, a sine wave, make a kick drum or something, okay there's that. But when people get sort of a lot more prescriptive about like, you know, this is how to create, you know, an evolving drone or something over time and there's these specific kind of methods, I always struggle with that because I find myself trying so hard to remember a specific technique that I, a. am not very creative and b. I forget it afterwards straight away anyway. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Right. I know. That's so interesting to think about because like I simultaneously am, trying to think about how to put this into words, it's like I simultaneously am suspicious when something says that this and this will always equal this but also there's so many instances where that's the case like with, well actually, okay, sorry and now I'm like in real time thinking about this with you where, because I was thinking about with like baking, you know, so much of it is like reliant on consistency but then there's always the environmental things of like if you're at a different altitude or like temperatures or like the cookware that you're using, like there's still so many variables and so I guess like to return to the beginning of that thought was like, I feel oftentimes like suspicious when something will like guarantee something because it's like, I feel like so much of it is about responsiveness and like responding to situations, so I really liked what you were saying because it feels like it like incorporates that responsiveness.  William J. Stokes: Yeah. Yeah totally and that, I suppose what you just said there was at the root of my question before about those two sides of your musical output, because often songwriting, you know, it just feels like it activates a totally different part of the brain, it's not responsive in the, it is responsive but not in quite the same way. It's not quite, it is explorative, but not quite explorative in the same way. Patching, I suppose you could say it's like a method of composition by, I dunno, like almost more like abstract painting, you know, where you sort of, you chuck something at the canvas and see what works and maybe take something away and then it's just a such a different type of approach. We could theorize about creativity for the whole podcast. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: I know, I love doing that. That's like one of my favourite conversations.  William J. Stokes: Obviously you don't only use the 200e Buchla, but the modules we're gonna be talking about today are from that system and the modules you're gonna be performing for us with later on, but from that system I've given you a free pass here and I hope you're appreciative because normally I require my guests to only choose like five or six and only perform on those, but I have allowed you to keep the system as is and pick out a few different modules that we can discuss. So for, you know, any listeners that think that Kaitlyn's performance is too good to have been done on just these modules, you're absolutely right. The first module I'm really interested to ask you about is the 223e, this is the Multidimensional Kinesthetic input and it's accompanying module, this is the, for those unfamiliar with sort of Buchla design, this is the famous kind of eagle shaped interface, you know, I was interested to ask about this as a kind of a segue to talking about how you interact with your system on a tactile level, you know, Don Buchla famously did not like chromatic keyboard designs as a means of interacting with his systems but, you know, does that sort of resonate with you, Is, you know, it looks like a kind of an esoteric design for people that aren't used to it but you know it's, so many people swear by it Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Yeah I mean I love it so much because I feel like it really releases any musical expectations that I have just like stuck in me because I get to create, I mean, especially with the 200e that I have, like I get to create different presets for where it's tuned to whatever I want it to be and so I love just like playing with changing up my mind's expectation and yeah, I feel like it's a really, really, really crucial part of the creative process for me. It kind of reminds me of like when I used to play the guitar, when you start writing in an alternate tuning, it's like you feel like you just all of a sudden have a new instrument.  William J. Stokes: Do you find yourself reaching for the same kind of input each time or like that do, you know, retuning the guitar, do you find yourself shaking up? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Yeah, I tend to always, that's like kind of a, not to say I have any creative rules, but if I did have one that would be like maybe the only one, it's like always start from a new place and I have a notebook that I keep next to the 200e that has everything I've done before and every time that I sit down I like try, I mean I don't change it every single time I sit down, but every time that I sit down to change it, write out a new page just so that I can always have that with me and the memory card, I think it stores up to 30, I can't remember at this exact moment, so I feel like, you know, it already like gives so many amazing starting places, just taking the time to program all 30 of those, which does take a long time. William Stokes: And it's kind of part of it's, you know, it's part of the workflow isn't it, that it's, there's so much that you can do, but it also, there is a kind of a beautiful way that I feel like this is kind of a quite characteristic of Buchla systems. It's sort of, it does make people slow down a little bit or really consider what it is they're actually doing. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Yeah. Before the pandemic, I was gonna take the 200e out on tour and I had spent, you know I think it was like eight months programming it to be like perfect for the set and like even practice timing myself to patch every single patch for every song so that I could do it like really fast and then the pandemic happened and I never got to take it out but I still have all those, all the presets and I really enjoyed, I broke it up into sections of where for like, I think it was like a month every single day I sat down and just focused on programming environments that I would wanna play with and didn't even really play with them that much, I just was in this like programming mindset and then once it felt like that got set, then I switched gears into like okay, now I'm a musician and now I play it and I really appreciated that and I really like working with an instrument that invites that. William J. Stokes: Let's move on to waveform generation to use the Buchla-ese. So the 261 and the 259, 261e, 259e, this is the Complex Waveform Generator and then the Twisted Waveform Generator. I was interested to ask you about these sort of as a two in one because it's kind, it's obviously the genesis point of a patch but these show, now they demonstrate two very different workflows really, they come from sort of, it's you know, clearly the same sort of approach ostensibly, but two very different sides of that. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: I mean, I haven't really played a system that doesn't have both of them, they always tend to be together and like as far as 200e systems go, because I feel like they're just so complimentary. William Stokes: Sort of like a Jekyll and Hyde relationship. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Yeah because I feel like when they're interacting with each other, they create their own like sympathetic waveform folding situation, like FM thing, like I think there's a lot, there was a lot of thoughtfulness put into how the frequencies, like the harmonic frequencies interact with each other because you're in this like additive environment so that I feel like there's a reason why almost every 200e system has both of them. William Stokes: What kind of methods, I'm interested to know what kind of methods you sort of, you know, off the top of your head reach for in terms of your using oscillators. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Well, I don't really have specific methods but I think the like orchestral background like always keeps my mind on what's happening sympathetically. William Stokes: That's a really interesting, that's a really interesting way to kick off that answer, I'm keen to know more. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Well, I think it's like a combination of that and when I was studying how acoustics interact with architecture, I'm always paying attention to the frequencies that are psychosomatic and I think like with an additive environment there's just so much more at play there because they're constantly interacting and creating more partials, where with subtractive there's like a different thing that's happening, a different environment that's happening, so I think it's just really interesting to, it's like if you were to take those two oscillators and hook them up to an oscilloscope and watch them interact, it's like they're just, their interactions create their own like interesting asymmetry and symmetry. William Stokes: And often the spaces between things are kind of where a lot of the complexity comes from you know. I sort of, I think that was my biggest, just in modular in general, that was like one of my biggest breakthroughs in my understanding of it, you know, when I was getting into it, was understanding that actually you know, okay, you know, a sine wave or something that is very, you know, that is very simple, it's one thing to modulate the this or, you know, make it move in that way but actually when you, you know, you start to get into kind of FM and audio rate modulation, that kind of thing, you start to create these interesting spaces between things which is where the magic really seems to happen, you know, those residual resonances, those sympathetic frequencies, those, you know, like it's really classic example but I was, you know, such a revelation, you know, Daniel Avery's drone logic, you know, keeping the drone the same and modulating the resonance of the filter, that's, I mean, so simple, but it was just like this ghostly melody that both doesn't exist and does exist and you know, that I remember just finding that kind of, you know, such an amazing realisation that's what he was doing. Let's move on to the 252e. This is the polyphonic rhythm generator and this is sort of similar to the 22e kinesthetic input. This is an example of something that I think a lot of people who are not used to Buchla would take one look at and go, I have absolutely no idea how to use that, this is like a big sort of circular sequencer essentially but it works in concentric rings right? I actually have no hands on experience with this module myself, so I'm interested to ask what is it? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: I mean it's similar to a Euclidean sequencer, kind of like, I dunno if you've ever played with like the Scorp where it's using Euclidean geometry as the basis of the sequencer which I really appreciate because I love polyrhythms, they really just feel the most natural to me. So it's basically a sequencer where you can have three rhythms happening that are in different time signatures, different tempos, or sorry different, well yeah, different time, different divisions, I'll say it like that because like it's not really meant to be thought of in a traditional music form, so it's easier to say from different timing sources and different patterns, so it's like your timing source could be sending it and it's going through a pattern of four or another timing source is simultaneously going through a pattern of seven and another one going through a pattern of 12, but then it's also interactive so you can play it and change like what the timing sources are or what the divisions are. So I feel like it makes it really versatile for sound design and for just like really complex rhythm structures. William Stokes: Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, that polyrhythm sort of side of it is, that kind of goes back to what we were just talking about you know, that so much magic happens in those unexpected overlap moments between two irregular, you know, irregular rhythms or rhythms of different lengths. That definitely chimes with, you know, I feel like in your music dare I say it, I feel like there's a fair amount of minimalist rhythmic influence in there in terms of some of your sequences, you know, these overlapping polyrhythm things. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Yeah, definitely. I mean the first like electronic influence that I had was Music For 18 Musicians and that wasn't even an electronic piece that was like, but it inspired me to learn about electronic music because it sounded to me like it was electronic and it was the initial like mind blowing moment of like, oh my gosh I just wanna make organic things sound electronic and electronic things sound organic. William Stokes: Yeah, a lot of modular, sometimes seems to be sort of chasing that very dragon of where the overlap between, you know, something that exists in the, you know, so-called real world or in the physical world and sounds that exist in the electronic world, you know, where making one sound like the other is almost kind of, that's the thrill sometimes, it seems to me and actually that's a good segue onto our next module, the 296e spectral processor because this is of course something that can really imbue, you know, it's a fairly simple source with some real sort of sonic complexity. It's a real time performance filter compound equaliser and it can be used, you know, almost like a vocoder, it's, yeah, it's a, this is kind of in many ways, one of the sort of, I would maybe argue that one of the aspects of the 200e system that is, whose influences may be felt you know, around the modular world more than any other. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: I know, that's one of my favorite modules to interact with. Like, I love the tactile aspect of it and I think just like frequencies and like I think playing with the spectral realm of all sounds is like the most exciting aspect to me and I love, because I don't know if you've seen like you know, it'll follow your finger like you can like actually play it and I think that that just makes it feel like a tactile like formant filter, like when you're playing with one hand the envelope and then that with another hand. William Stokes: Does it kind of double for you then as almost like an interface to the system where, what normally in a patch, I'm interested to know where you sort of place it in a patch, does it constitute sort of the you know, next to the oscillators as the root of something, or do you normally put it at the end where you have kind of almost this like end of chain sort of you know, master control over the spectral content? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: It's usually closer to, I mean I guess it kind of depends on what sound I'm making but I feel like I always approach sound like a mouth and so I tend to put it like maybe in the middle of the chain where I'm thinking about like... William Stokes: Interesting. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: ... Okay what is the initial sound, what is like the resonating body of it, what is the shape of it and then like, what is influencing the sound, like how is it interacting with, like I put it more in the playability part of the chain where it's like, you know, with the formant like of a mouth, it's like that would be made by the shape that you're making and how you're making that shape, so I feel like I couple it with that. William Stokes: Interesting. Yeah I love that. Yeah, like a mouth, I mean a mouth in some ways I suppose is kind of like a filter bank you know, in nature. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Yeah, I love like, I had this one teacher when I was studying classical music, they, well I don't wanna say like across the board, but most institutes say like you should take a lesson in every instrument of the orchestra so that you know how to write for it and something that I learned during that process was that most instruments were created as an extension of the voice, like to do something the voice, the human voice couldn't do and I feel like it's really fun to approach synthesis in that way too, except for that I like just always come back to okay, what can this do that the voice can't do and how does this connect to the voice. William Stokes: And that's a great question to kind of keep at the heart of it you know I feel like that, because you're returning to a fundamental I suppose, a very human fundamental as well there, you are asking you know, how does this actually extend, you know, I don't wanna get too sort of, you know, romanticising it but I feel like that does extend to how you know, the extension of the voice, like your creative voice as well as the physical human voice you know, how much is this actually remaining authentic to my creative approach and you know, something that I try and sort of remind people of, you know, who I'm sort of, I suppose, you know, educating in using some of this stuff is that, is to know where the line is between them playing the instrument and the instrument sort of playing them in a way or being carried along. It's okay to want to kind of, you know, sometimes you feel you're going in a direction, you kind of agree with that and you allow it to happen but sometimes, you know, to take a minute and say you know what, like you say there, like how much is this an extension of actually what I want to say or what I want to sing, if you know what I mean. It returns to like a zero point that's very pure, I think that's what I'm saying. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Totally. I feel like it's such an analogy for life of like the constant balance of like what you can and can't control. William Stokes: Absolutely and keeping those things in balance, you know. The orchestra is, I feel like it's one of those things that will never die because it's so infinitely, there's something about it that's so infinitely mysterious because there are so many people involved. It's kind of like every instrument in every section is still bringing its own kind of little character, so that's the kind of the part which is maybe out of the control of the conductor or the composer, but then the parts that are in control, you know, are sort of, they're really held quite tightly and in quite a regimented way and it's really, I think that maybe, dare I say it, your background in that type of music is a, I think it's possibly, it sounds like it's created a really kind of fruitful approach to the whole craft of electronic music. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: I know, I feel really grateful that it unfolded in the way it did because to be honest, like as I was on the journey and like still in this moment as I continue on the journey, it's like sometimes I don't know how that's gonna play into that thing, you know I think we can all relate to that in some way or another and so it's nice to have these mile markers to look back and see like oh wow, that really, like you said, like created like a fruitful pool of inspiration to reach into and so I appreciate you highlighting that. William Stokes: Yeah totally and I dunno, I feel like there's some overlap there, I couldn't tell you exactly what, but there's an overlap there with the last module that I wanted to ask you about, which is the 227e system interface. This is essentially the kind of, you know, a four channel spatialiser I suppose, or kind of a quad mixer or, how would you describe it? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: I mean that's a perfect way of describing it, of like a quad mixer but you're able to send timing sources to it so it'll have movement, it'll like feel like it's swirling all around you and that can also create like a filter of its own as well and it can also create like phasing, like you can create analogue effects with it because of the way that it can collapse and create a phaser, or it can create reverb, or it can, depending on how you're using it. William Stokes: How important is Quad and spatial to you? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Spatial is really important to me. Quad I wouldn't say is, it's not that it's not important to me, I don't wanna say like anything's not important, but it's not like as important as spatial is to me. But I actually personally resonate the most with creating spatial environments in stereo because I've done quite a few performances where it's quad and more and I find that it feels a little bit exclusive because it depends on where you are in the audience to experience, like it's like only the person in the middle is gonna get the full thing, or the people in the middle and so I really, like I guess it's, unless it's like a multiplied stereo, like a faux quad thing, but I really enjoy creating spatial environments in the stereo way or multiplying the stereo image in a like 360 immersive thing and that being said, I still love doing performances where it's many channels and so I don't know how to say that in a way that doesn't feel binary because I don't feel like one or the other. William Stokes: It's interesting, I think that that's something that a lot of the time the people I've spoken to about this subject kind of find themselves in a similar situation to the one you literally just described, where it's kind of, you know, it's not really about something being superior or inferior, it's not and in some ways, even though it's a technological progression, working in spatial, I don't think I've ever met anyone, even the people who are really expert in it, who would argue that like, it makes them never wanna listen to a stereo mix again or perform in stereo. It is not really, it's like mono to stereo, people draw that comparison between stereo and spacial, it's not the same in any way. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Yeah, I agree William Stokes: What is it, I'm interested to ask in your words, what it is that you, I hope you'll forgive this very sort of prosaic question but why is it important that people feel immersed in the sound in a live performance? Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: It's actually something I've been thinking about a lot recently just though, it's almost like intimacy in sound, it's something I've been having a lot of conversations with people about where it feels like over the last like 20 years there's been more of an invitation into like sound getting closer and closer and I think because people use it as like a force field, because our world is like, has so many other sounds that we're trying to not hear for a little bit, that I feel like people are wearing sound more like clothing than maybe they did. William Stokes: Oh I love that. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: So I don't know. I think like, it's almost like for me the immersiveness of sound is when it merges with your personality where you're like okay I identify with this like I wanna add it to my force field, like I want it to be a part of my own expression and that to me is like what connection is all about for me is like when someone receives something and they're like oh, this is now like a part of my expression for me and I know that's how I take art in is where like when I love something it's like it, of course I like appreciate the person who made it 1000% and like acknowledge them and it like becomes a part of my ethos as well. William Stokes: Interesting. There's a really good paper that I read recently by Tim Hecker, it was his PhD paper about what he calls the era of megaphonics, kind of this period between the late 19th and early 20th centuries where everything just got louder and bigger. Foghorns got bigger, organs got bigger, you know, just everything got bigger and louder and the people were trying to go for like the biggest orchestras ever assembled and this kind of thing and there's sort of an implicit impact on also our cultural kind of in the West at least, understanding in that period of which sound or music we choose to listen to and actually, so you know we're now sort of I suppose you could say kind of, well like you were saying, we're maybe out the other side of that into the point where we actually are using sound and music sometimes actually as a shelter from you know, this kind of unbearably, noisy world that we now live in. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Yeah, yeah. William Stokes: And intimacy, it's such a great way of putting it actually you know, because it's sort of, you know spatial, I guess the idea of immersion, I dunno, there's a bigness to that phrase that sort of has never quite chimed with me somehow but when you put it in that way actually, it creates an intimacy, that's something I feel like I can get on board with. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: I know and it's so interesting how like it's such a choice, like as someone receiving it, like it's actually not the choice of the person creating it or sharing it, it's the choice of the person receiving it to let something in and to be immersed by it. So there isn't really that much we can even do to create an immersive experience besides make it feel safe for someone to wanna receive it but that's like still not really in our control. William Stokes: And with that wonderful aphorism there, Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith, thank-you so much for joining me and for taking us through your life in modules. I can't wait to hear what you perform. Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith: Thank-you, it's been an honour to speak with you. William Stokes: Thanks for listening. Be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode where you'll find further information along with web links and details of all our other episodes. And just before you go, let me point you to the soundonsound.com/podcasts webpage, where you can explore what's playing on our other channels as well. My name's William J. Stokes and this has been a production for Sound On Sound magazine.