[MUSIC PLAYING] [Clip from "Notting Hill"]

MAX: Having you here, Anna, firmly establishes what I've long suspected that we really are the most desperate lot of underachievers.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing.

In fact, I think it's something we should take pride in.

I'm going to give the last brownie as a prize to the saddest act here.

ANNA: I've been on a diet every day since I was 19, which basically means I've been hungry for a decade.

I've had a series of not nice boyfriends, one of whom hit me, and every time I get my heart broken, the newspapers splash it about as though it's entertainment.

And it's taken two rather painful operations to get me looking like this.

HONEY: Really?

ANNA: One day, not long from now, my looks will go.

They will discover I can't act, and I will become some sad, middle aged woman who looks a bit like someone who was famous for a while.

MAX: No, nice try, gorgeous, but you don't fool anyone.

[LAUGHTER]

WILLIAM: Pathetic effort to hog the brownie.

[THEME MUSIC]

CHARLIE BENNETT: You are listening to WREK Atlanta, and this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock and roll radio show where we split the last brownie.

I am Charlie Bennett in the studio with everybody-- Fred Rascoe, Alex McGee, Marlee Givens and Cody Turner.

Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk, whichever you tune in for, we hope you dig it.

MARLEE GIVENS: Our show today is called "Fooling Ourselves."

CHARLIE BENNETT: Uh oh.

MARLEE GIVENS: Am I out?

CHARLIE BENNETT: No, my uh oh was about the title "Fooling Ourselves."

MARLEE GIVENS: It's about the title.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Kind of worries me a little bit.

Marlee is worried because there's been a lot of technical problems already, so everyone just buckle in.

MARLEE GIVENS: All right.

FRED RASCOE: Our radars are all up.

MARLEE GIVENS: OK.

I'm going to start over.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Go for it.

I'll cut all this out of the podcast.

MARLEE GIVENS: Our show today is called "Fooling Ourselves." It's a panel show, which means we're going to talk to each other about a particular subject, and today that subject is imposter syndrome.

I'm not sure I feel qualified to discuss that.

FRED RASCOE: Me neither.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Oh.

I hope this is not like Dunning-Kruger, but I have a lot of thoughts about imposter syndrome.

MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah, Charlie, when we were discussing the show idea last week, I believe what you said was I have plenty to say.

CHARLIE BENNETT: I don't know if that's the tone I would have used, but, yes, I did type that.

MARLEE GIVENS: I have plenty to say.

I'm counting on you, all of you.

We can do this.

I'm in.

FRED RASCOE: Me, too.

I guess.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Right on.

MARLEE GIVENS: No matter how you feel about imposter syndrome, whether you think it's real, it's all in our heads, or it's the fault of the system in which we operate, the Lost in the Stacks crew will tell you what it means to us, how we think it affects our colleagues, and what if anything we can recommend doing about it.

FRED RASCOE: And our songs today are appropriately enough about thinking we don't measure up, fear that we'll get caught out as frauds and the struggle to be open and trusting.

And it is a struggle.

To some degree.

Most of us have probably felt at one time or another that we're not successful because of our capability and rather we're just getting away with it.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Fred, I am right here in the room with you.

FRED RASCOE: So let's start with "Getting Away with It" by Electronic right here on Lost in the Stacks.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

MARLEE GIVENS: "Getting Away with It" by Electronic.

This is Lost in the Stacks, and our show today is called "Fooling Ourselves." It's a panel show, so you're getting the Lost in the Stacks crew on their own.

FRED RASCOE: Our topic is imposter syndrome, which has a number of definitions.

Here's one from a 2020 article "In the Library with the Lead Pipe" by Nicola Andrews.

ALEX MCGEE: Imposter syndrome, also called imposter phenomenon, imposter experience, fraud syndrome, and imposterism, is when a--

CHARLIE BENNETT: What?

ALEX MCGEE: Is when a person doubts the validity of their accomplishments, attributes them to external forces, and has an irrational fear that they will be revealed as a mistake.

MARLEE GIVENS: And that just sounds so familiar to me.

I distinctly remember my inner voice not only saying I don't deserve to be here-- and this happened as early as my first semester of college-- but also they're all going to find out I'm a fraud.

This is well before I ever learned the phrase imposter syndrome.

CHARLIE BENNETT: What did you think was the fraud that you would be found out?

MARLEE GIVENS: Oh, I mean that I didn't know what I was doing, that-- yeah, I just-- I didn't believe that I had gotten in college, that I had gotten in on my own accomplishments.

FRED RASCOE: Everybody else comes in their first year fully formed, and you were still--

MARLEE GIVENS: Oh, yeah.

They all just seem to have it-- yeah, they all just seem to have it together, they knew things that I didn't know.

I just-- I felt like such a big dummy.

FRED RASCOE: I felt that way, yeah.

MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah-- oh you did?

FRED RASCOE: Oh, for sure.

Yeah, you just look at what other people do.

You see just how people respond to different situations, different inputs, and you just think how did they know to do that.

They must already know everything.

And here I am--

MARLEE GIVENS: Exactly, yeah, yeah.

But is that how it felt to you that not just like, oh, I'm really intimidated by these people around me, but they're all going to know that I'm not one of them or something like that.

What did it feel like for you, Fred?

FRED RASCOE: I was just too busy wondering how I was going to catch up to that to even think about being found out as a fraud.

I just assumed, well, people know it already.

How do I--

ALEX MCGEE: I've already been discovered.

MARLEE GIVENS: OK, OK.

CHARLIE BENNETT: My version of-- what I hear y'all describing is adolescent.

ALEX MCGEE: I was going to say how nice that you made it to college before you had that realization.

MARLEE GIVENS: Oh, oh, well, what's your recollection, Alex.

ALEX MCGEE: Well, so we were talking about this before.

I think a lot of us were gifted and talented.

I got put in that in elementary school.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Suspects words.

ALEX MCGEE: Yeah, yeah.

And I remember I went into private school for a while then came back to public school.

I was back with a lot of people I grew up with for the first time.

It was eighth grade, and I-- it was the first test in our science class of the semester.

And I think I got a B-minus or something, which if you are gifted and talented, you may have put a dunce hat on me.

I remember coming home to my mom and saying I think I need to quit soccer, all the fun stuff I do.

Clearly I've been putting too much time to that.

I need to refocus on academics.

And she was the one that reminded me you're a kid.

You will get right.

It'll be OK.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Gifted and talented is not a universal term.

So some people might know this program with a different name or even just a different vibe.

But when Alex and I say gifted and talented, we're talking about that program that pulled students who were intellectually gifted and academically talented out of their fourth grade class and put them in a slightly more interesting fourth grade class.

ALEX MCGEE: What's funny is I took the-- they were we think you should take the test for that program.

I took it, did-- it was like here's shapes, make a picture out of it.

That's what the test was.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah, mine had the how do you get three cups of water out of this two and five.

Remember that puzzle?

I can't even remember the details of it, but as long as you could think, oh, I just have to pour some out of this-- yeah.

MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah.

ALEX MCGEE: Well, I will say they didn't like my drawings.

I didn't get in at that time.

So I was then just like whatever my standardized test scores, they were like now you get in.

FRED RASCOE: I don't remember this, but I-- my mom tells me that I came home from my first day of kindergarten crying because I was asked questions about ABCs and 1, 2, 3s I guess that I didn't know.

And so I came home crying, and she said that's why you're going to school.

[LAUGHTER]

CHARLIE BENNETT: The first experience with imposter syndrome was the question for the segment, and I think maybe the idea was that we would talk a little bit about work.

But clearly--

MARLEE GIVENS: I know.

Is this all going back to childhood and college?

So I-- so what does it feel like at work?

CHARLIE BENNETT: We have very little time.

MARLEE GIVENS: I know.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Well, it just feels like sometimes I can't do this job.

No one ever taught me how to do this job.

I don't know why they gave me this job.

And if someone were to come in here and say, hey, what are you doing right now, I would be immediately fired because I would not be able to answer.

ALEX MCGEE: Mine is perfectionism like sometimes I have trouble letting something go and being like it's good enough like other people are going to look at it and tell me if something's wrong.

FRED RASCOE: I think in the analogy is the same when I started at Georgia Tech like, oh, everyone else is fully formed and I am just at sea with this new person.

So just like when I started college I guess.

MARLEE GIVENS: Constant, Fred.

CHARLIE BENNETT: I just feel like imposter syndrome is sometimes insecurity.

This is Lost in the Stacks.

We'll be back with more about imposter syndrome and what it really is after a music set.

MARLEE GIVENS: File this set under BF698.3.Q46.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

ALEX MCGEE: That was "I Found Out" by Dressy Bessy.

And before that, "I Just Get Caught Out" by the Go-Betweens, songs about the fear of someone finding out your true nature.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

CHARLIE BENNETT: This is Lost in the Stacks.

Today's episode is called "Fooling Ourselves," a panel show about imposter syndrome.

MARLEE GIVENS: And in our first segment, we actually didn't talk about what it feels like at work very much.

Do you mind if I--

CHARLIE BENNETT: We're dark and deep.

MARLEE GIVENS: Well, do you mind if I just read out a few symptoms that-- so Fred side of the article From "in the Library with the Lead Pipe." So they mentioned it can manifest as workaholism, perfectionism, working longer hours, taking on additional responsibilities, not celebrating one's own achievements, not accepting praise or compliments, people pleasing, difficulty saying no, inability to make decisions, spacing out, and isolating oneself.

CHARLIE BENNETT: So those are the symptoms or the self-medication for doubting the validity of your accomplishments, attributing your accomplishments to external forces as opposed to your own work, and having an irrational fear that your presence or responsibility will be revealed as a mistake.

I keep thinking about the sitcom The Good Place and how it is structured around imposter syndrome because someone arrives in heaven and discovers that the person with their name that's supposed to be in heaven is not them.

MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah.

CHARLIE BENNETT: And they are terrified of being caught out as one might be if you found that you're supposed to be in hell.

MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah, exactly.

Well, they're literally an imposter, so I deliberately gave this show the title "Fooling Ourselves," by which I mean questioning-- I'm questioning whether imposter syndrome is an illusion so not that it doesn't exist, because it definitely does, but the idea that it's an individual issue that we are personally responsible for, and therefore the solution lies within us individually.

May not be the whole picture.

CHARLIE BENNETT: So you're saying that we might be fooling ourselves into thinking that imposter syndrome is what we do to ourselves--

MARLEE GIVENS: Right.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Instead of a kind of confluence of many factors, everything from being a gifted and talented student to having a body in college that's changing and growing or a mind that's not yet fully formed and work is hard.

MARLEE GIVENS: Well, yeah, it's-- yes.

But I think there's even more to it than that, and I read a few things that were pretty enlightening I think.

So the phrase imposter syndrome comes from some research that some psychologists did.

It was published in the '70s.

I think that it didn't really take off-- they called it impostor phenomenon.

It didn't really take off as an imposter syndrome until later like in the 2000s.

But-- so in that original research, they suggested that the cause was rooted in childhood, which is I think why we were all talking about our childhood.

So people who are either-- they grow up overshadowed by siblings--

ALEX MCGEE: Oh, yeah, gifted sibling, yeah.

MARLEE GIVENS: Their gifted sibling or they grow up gifted, and they're just praised for, oh, everything's so easy for you.

You're so smart.

And then their illusion is shattered as they encounter some limitations.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah, it's either you feel like everyone treated you as a person who couldn't do it.

So then if you start doing it, it's like I'm going to be found out.

Or you've already had that horrible break of discovering that it's not true.

I'm not smart.

I can't just do whatever I want, which usually comes from not having to do any work and then finding--

ALEX MCGEE: Coasting.

CHARLIE BENNETT: What is that being promoted to your level of inability?

MARLEE GIVENS: Oh, is it the Peter principle?

CHARLIE BENNETT: Is that what it-- oh, yeah, yeah.

So management people rise in an organization until they reach something they cannot do, and then they stop because they cannot excel at that.

MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah.

But they're also incompetent at that level.

CHARLIE BENNETT: And then they're stuck, and it's like can you please demote me slightly.

But when you're a kid growing up, you don't have all those options, and you're not in a bureaucracy.

I mean you are, but childhood itself is not a bureaucracy.

So when you finally reach a challenge, it wounds you.

ALEX MCGEE: Yeah.

Yeah.

CHARLIE BENNETT: And then you carry that.

FRED RASCOE: I think it's also important to remember to what you were saying, Marlee, that it's not just within us.

The original researchers from 1978 were their names Clance and-- oh, it escapes me.

But the original researchers found that particular folks felt imposter syndrome more like women felt imposter syndrome, people who were-- it's not internal It's the system stacked against them felt it more.

MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah.

And it could be in the '70s, women had been coming back into the workplace, but they were just starting this new trend of taking on jobs that were traditionally held by men, the feeling-- actually literally being made to feel like they weren't-- they didn't deserve that or they didn't belong.

I've been thinking a lot about our-- you belong in the library episode from a few weeks ago, literally being told that they don't belong.

CHARLIE BENNETT: And I do wonder-- I don't know how prevalent women's participation in the workforce during the war, World War II, was.

I know that we have this American anecdote of women went into the workforce when men went to fight, and then men came back and needed those jobs.

And so women were kicked out of the workforce for a good 25, 30 years.

And so you might have had younger women working for the first time being told by older women that they're just going to take it away from you.

It's going to be undone even though they're letting you work now.

MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah, and other causes that "In the Library with the Lead Pipe" article that we've already cited suggest that there may be cultural-- different cultural issues as well like white supremacy, positivity culture, the way that confidence appears in different cultures--

CHARLIE BENNETT: Or even different genders

MARLEE GIVENS: Like what-- like the way that we define professionalism.

And I-- there's a lot of arguments that are being made in the library field these days and people who espouse like a critical librarianship view.

And it's very similar to the way people talk about resilience and grit and this idea that, well, these are all individual problems.

And so it's up to the individual to solve them whereas we are creating the conditions I think based on our past in the library field, the educated white woman dominated field, we've defined what it means to be a professional, what it means to be confident, what it means to succeed.

And it doesn't always fit the people who are coming into the field these days, and we inadvertently I think make people feel-- I think there's also literal examples in some of the articles of being made to feel not belong, but I think we also inadvertently do that.

And so you can't just practice mindfulness or power poses.

That's only going to get you so far.

CHARLIE BENNETT: The really shocking thing that I read in the "In the Library in the Lead Pipe" article was that imposter syndrome could almost be imposed upon you if you were a minority or disenfranchised person coming into a job, being celebrated, being held up as a, oh, look, we're doing the good work.

And then in the nuts and bolts, the day-to-day stuff, all of those problems that kept those folks out of the job to begin with reassert themselves, and then someone says I was told that I was the new wave.

Everything was changing, that it was-- started with me and now I'm having trouble.

What's wrong with me?

MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah.

I think she even referred to that as gaslighting.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah.

MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah.

CHARLIE BENNETT: I don't-- I feel like gaslighting is a thing that I cannot understand nor describe nor discuss.

So I always avoid those discussions.

ALEX MCGEE: We will mention it and move on.

MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah, exactly.

No, I think the idea is if you're having trouble feeling confident at work, then you have imposter syndrome whether you do or not.

CHARLIE BENNETT: And you'd better fix it.

MARLEE GIVENS: And you'd better fix it.

Exactly.

FRED RASCOE: Charlie, just last week, you told me you knew exactly what a gaslighting was.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Did I?

Is that a thing I said?

Oh my gosh.

I'm feeling very strange right now like maybe I don't know myself or others.

I'm just going to go watch some Alfred Hitchcock and chill out.

You are listening to Lost in the Stacks, and we'll talk more about imposter syndrome on the left side of the hour and I guess gaslighting, too, Fred.

FRED RASCOE: Yeah.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

MARK RIEDL: Hi there.

This is Mark Riedl of Georgia Tech's computer science department, or is it?

Maybe my voice has been deep faked, and this is just a digital forgery created by a neural network.

Either way, you're definitely listening to Lost in the Stacks on WREK Atlanta

CHARLIE BENNETT: Today's episode is called "Fooling ourselves." We're talking about imposter syndrome, also known as imposter phenomenon, imposter experience, and imposterism.

MARLEE GIVENS: In 2014, librarians Melanie Clark, Kimberly Vardeman, and Shelley Barba published "Perceived Inadequacy-- A Study of the Impostor Phenomenon Among College and Research Librarians" in the Journal College and Research Libraries.

In their survey of 352 academic librarians, they found that one in eight might be experiencing imposter syndrome to a significant degree.

In response to the question do you struggle with feelings of inadequacy at your job on a regular basis, 17.5% said that they do, and 23.6% responded that they do not presently but have in the past.

Hey, Charlie.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Yes.

MARLEE GIVENS: Will you read some quotes from the study participants that show just how devastating and demoralizing this can feel?

CHARLIE BENNETT: I would be happy to.

MARLEE GIVENS: Thank you.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Kind of.

I'm in a new position having to learn a lot of new things with little guidance.

I definitely feel inadequate on a regular basis.

I'm hoping the situation will improve as time passes.

I didn't know that I was in this survey.

I know objectively that I am good at my job, but I get little to no sincere feedback from my supervisor.

This makes me question if my work is really valued by the institution or not.

Flashbacks to 2006.

MARLEE GIVENS: Uh huh.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Sometimes I overcompensate and do way too much work.

Other times I feel so lost, I put something off when I don't have to.

I can't remember how many classes I taught last year, but my boss said it is time for you to stop teaching so many classes.

This stresses me out considerably, and it affects my health as a result.

Just get it as a tattoo I think.

MARLEE GIVENS: Mmm hmm.

Mmm hmm.

So some of these folks I think like Fred were motivated to just build their skills in order to become more confident.

However--

CHARLIE BENNETT: Most stated that the effects of these feelings were demotivation, procrastination, and feelings of stress, anxiety, or burnout.

MARLEE GIVENS: The study also found that feelings of inadequacy decreased with age and experience.

I suppose that's good news for me.

And my younger colleagues hopefully have something to look forward to.

CHARLIE BENNETT: If they make it.

File this set under BF637.S8C495.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

FRED RASCOE: "Don't Know What I Am" by The Wipers.

Before that, "Got It" by Sebadoh.

And we started with "Not Me" by The Orlons, songs about people who don't think they measure up.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

ALEX MCGEE: This is Lost in the Stacks, and our show today is called "Fooling Ourselves."

MARLEE GIVENS: So as we round out our panel discussion, I want to talk about what if anything can be done about imposter syndrome.

And I think we're somewhat short on time.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Oh, we can go over.

It's fine.

MARLEE GIVENS: Well, I just-- I guess I want to start with where did we land in our previous discussion.

Is this all on us?

Is it an individual issue?

Is it something that we could address at the library level or even at the profession level?

CHARLIE BENNETT: So I am a broken record here, but the problem is capitalism and the human psyche.

MARLEE GIVENS: I want to go there.

CHARLIE BENNETT: That's pretty much it.

MARLEE GIVENS: No, I definitely want to go there, Charlie, because I think, yeah, it's like-- it's the achievement culture and yeah.

Do you think that confidence-- we all have a different definition of what confidence means?

CHARLIE BENNETT: I think--

MARLEE GIVENS: What it looks like.

Yeah.

CHARLIE BENNETT: I believe that the alienation of ourselves from the end result of our labor is the start of all of this stuff.

I don't see the end product, so I don't know what I'm doing.

And the farther things get from cause and effect, the more tenuous our sense of our import becomes.

That's it.

That's all I got.

MARLEE GIVENS: Awww.

FRED RASCOE: That's heavy.

MARLEE GIVENS: It is heavy.

ALEX MCGEE: Well, I'm thinking for you, how far removed is the end result then?

Is it--

CHARLIE BENNETT: Well, when I go--

ALEX MCGEE: The students you teach when they succeed or--

CHARLIE BENNETT: So I felt the most comfortable with my teaching when I was doing a four credit course that I designed, and it was a mini mester.

And so I got their assignments and I graded them and I talked to them at the end.

But I do one shots, and I walk in a bunch of people who've never seen me before listen to me talk to them for a while.

I get them to talk to me by goading them with tricks and jokes, and then I never see them again.

And maybe the professor says, hey, that was great, but I also know that I just got them out of teaching a class so they're happy.

ALEX MCGEE: Yeah.

So those of us who teach, we get those evaluations.

And I think all of our evaluations are generally really good.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Mine are awesome.

ALEX MCGEE: Do you believe them when you get them?

CHARLIE BENNETT: No, because these are kids who didn't know what they were doing when I-- I'm sorry.

I'm joking around now.

Go for it, Fred.

FRED RASCOE: I think there's a really high bar for a student to say this was terrible and mean it and not just be trolling someone.

So that's-- whether that's true or not, that's what I think when I read those evaluations.

It's like it's got to be really bad for a student to actually make a effort to leave a bad review.

ALEX MCGEE: Yeah, I'm thinking about the reference side when someone actually successfully completes their research or they put out a publication and we get credited.

I get just excited when we're a citation that they used our stuff because that's, oh, all the work and labor that went into processing, collection, making it available, getting it discoverable online, and then people actually using it.

And then I'm thinking about the exhibit.

I love we started doing a feedback book where people can leave us comments.

Love the critical ones.

Very fun.

CHARLIE BENNETT: How so?

ALEX MCGEE: Oh, I just think it's interesting to see what people want to critique of what we had.

And usually I'll argue back to this imaginary person and be like, well, but I do think it's always interesting to know what do you not like.

Yeah, that is good.

So what has worked for all of you when you've had these feelings of imposter syndrome?

CHARLIE BENNETT: Who said anything worked?

MARLEE GIVENS: Do you still suffer?

CHARLIE BENNETT: I'll tell you a story, but unfortunately it's a story that mostly sounds like I'm talking about how cool I am, but it is a thing that really helped me out.

So I was doing my promotion review, and it was almost impossible to do as my supervisor asked me to do, which was brag, brag, brag, build yourself up, talk about how great you are.

It's like I can't do this.

This just feels ugly.

And I was telling one of our colleagues I'm just not prepared to brag about myself.

I'm not prepared to brag about any of this stuff.

And our colleague said, dude, I brag about knowing you.

Just write it.

Oh, I got a-- I got a awww from Cody off mic.

MARLEE GIVENS: That's great.

Yeah.

CHARLIE BENNETT: And just the intensity of that connection really helped me.

And from that, I extrapolate talk to your colleagues is the way to solve imposter syndrome.

ALEX MCGEE: I have a folder in my Outlook box where I-- it's called feel good, and that's where I sew all my thank you for your help with this.

Just want to let this is coming out or a good news story that I helped with for institute communications or the attaboys I get from my colleagues.

And that's the kind of stuff that if I'm having a bad day, I'll go look at that and be like I am sometimes competent.

Or--

CHARLIE BENNETT: Had to throw in sometimes--

ALEX MCGEE: When you're doing your promotion or your annual review, it's like, oh, this was very impressive to people outside the library.

I should mention that.

FRED RASCOE: And that's like the building trust thing that we're talking, about trust with your colleagues.

That helps the imposter syndrome.

So is it reciprocal with you three?

Have you done that for someone?

ALEX MCGEE: Oh, yeah.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah, the first time I felt that wash of relief, I thought, oh my gosh, I have to do this for everybody all the time.

And that was long before this, the brag story I was talking about.

But whenever I've tried to pull someone aside and tell them how great the thing they did on the radio show was, it's almost always about knowing that people need that.

They need to believe that they did good work and trust the validation.

MARLEE GIVENS: This is Lost in the Stacks, and today we have been discussing imposter syndrome, what it means for us individually, what it means for libraries, and what it means for the profession but mostly what it means for us individually.

CHARLIE BENNETT: File this set under BF575.S39C43-- so it's been BF all day.

FRED RASCOE: That's the psychology and self-help subclass.

CHARLIE BENNETT: I should have known that.

I'm such a terrible librarian.

Hit it.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

MARLEE GIVENS: "A Little More Trust" by David Ruffin and before that "I Feel" by Winter, songs about the struggle to talk openly in order to establish trust and diminish insecurity.

[MUSIC PLAYING] Today's show was called "Fooling Ourselves." And after starting our discussion with our own personal confessions of imposter syndrome, I thought we could end on a more positive note, the flip side of imposter syndrome, which I'm going to call the feeling of absolutely killing it at work.

So what is making you feel like that these days?

For me--

FRED RASCOE: AKAW-- absolutely killing it at work.

MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah, all right.

All right.

Yeah, so for me, it's project management.

I just-- I like having a clearly defined set of goals, things that are going to get done.

We chip away at it every two weeks, and it just feels great.

Yeah.

What about you, Charlie?

CHARLIE BENNETT: Well, it's all promotion stuff because I've done the dossier and it's in the pipeline, but I keep getting things coming-- yeah, really nice things said by people who've never met me before after reading the dossier.

And so I feel pretty good about that although that's just killing it in the past.

Right now, I'm doing nothing.

What about you, Fred.

FRED RASCOE: This coming week, an upgrade for our thesis submission system is going to go live, which have been working on for a while with some other folks and everything's going well.

All the testing is going well.

It goes live October 1st, so I'm just knocking on wood or whatever's in here that it's going to continue to go well.

Alex-- no, Cody.

I'm sorry.

We got to go in the right order.

ALEX MCGEE: Yeah, I know.

FRED RASCOE: We've already established it.

CODY TURNER: I've accepted the fact that I am good at presenting.

I can talk to a group of people about anything in any setting.

Yesterday at work, I had to give a 15-minute presentation with exactly 30 seconds heads up, and I was fine with that.

ALEX MCGEE: I will close it out.

So I actually was in Asheville, North Carolina, up until yesterday, and I accepted an award on behalf of our design team and myself for the Portman Exhibit here in the library from the Southeast chapter of the Society of Architectural Historians.

We won the Best of the South Excellence in Preservation, Education, Research, and Outreach for our exhibit.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Congratulations.

ALEX MCGEE: And I thought we were the only ones.

I was like surely we were the only people that submitted, but I found out, no, we had competition and still won.

So, yeah.

CHARLIE BENNETT: I love it.

MARLEE GIVENS: Perfect.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Is it triumphant credits.

Let's roll that and see what happens.

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ALEX MCGEE: Lost in the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library.

Written and produced by Alex McGee, Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Cody Turner is our dedicated board op.

FRED RASCOE: Legal counsel and honesty, truth, and trust provided to us from the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Love it.

MARLEE GIVENS: Special thanks to the librarians who interrogate imposter syndrome, to our excellent colleagues who have our back, to the voice in our head that tells us we're doing a good job.

And thanks as always to each and every one of you for listening.

ALEX MCGEE: Our web page is library.gatech.e du/LostInTheStacks, where you'll find our most recent episode, a link to our podcast feed, and a web form if you want to get in touch with us.

CHARLIE BENNETT: Next week, it's another First Friday entry of the GT Library Guidebook.

And maybe appropriately for the start of spooky season, we're going down into the basement.

FRED RASCOE: Down to the basement.

Time for our last song today and I think the four of us should kick off our weekend by acknowledging that while we're not perfect-- we may feel like we're faking it 'til we make it sometimes-- we all have useful talents, and we have all accomplished some good things.

Right?

CHARLIE BENNETT: Sure.

FRED RASCOE: That's really who we are.

It is, Charlie.

That's who you are.

That's who we all are.

And when we look in the mirror, we should see that real person.

So let's close with "The Real Me" by Radio Stars right here on Lost in the Stacks.

Have a great weekend, everyone.

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