Episode Transcript
Hey, girlfriends, it's me Anna here to let you know what's coming up.
This episode covers Kelly's trial, so as you'd expect, we'll be speaking about the night of the murder in great detail, but we also dive deeper into the case for the prosecution and the defense, and at the end you can make up your own mind about whether the right verdict was reached.
If you feel impacted by some of the themes in this show, you can reach out to No More.
There are domestic violence charity with a lot of great resources to help you or your loved ones.
You can search No More dot org and we've also put a link to their website in the episode description.
Oh and by the way, there's going to be some swear words.
When Tommy Donovan is first arrested back in July of twenty ten, he immediately tries to shift the majority of the blame for Angel Vargas's death onto Kelly, and that he choked Angel to the point of unconsciousness, but implying that it was Kelly who really killed him.
He then takes a deal where in return for giving evidence against Kelly, his charge is reduced to manslaughter.
Here's an exchange from Tommy's sentencing that I found in the court records.
Speaker 2I'll be playing the role of the court official, while.
Speaker 1My producer Jake will voice Tommy.
By your plea of guilty, you admit that on or about July seventh, twenty ten, here in Queens, you, acting in concerts with another person, caused the death of Reuben Angel Vargas by beating and choking him.
Speaker 2Yes, the person you were acting in concert with.
Who was that person?
Speaker 3My girlfriend?
Speaker 2What's her name?
Speaker 3Kelly Harnett?
Speaker 1And the evidence shows both of you were involved in the choking that led to mister Vargus dying.
Yes, sir, and that's the story.
Tommy sixty until twenty thirteen.
Speaker 4Dear mister Epstein, as you already acquainted with me, I will get to the point.
Speaker 1Kelly's reading from a letter sent by Tommy Donovan to her lawyer David Epstein, and.
Speaker 4The night of July seven, twenty ten, I murdered Angel Argus by strangulation.
I committed this murder in full presence of Kelly, though at no time was there any collusion between her and I.
Though my initial written confession differs from this account.
At the time I was exhausted, in opiate withdrawal, and angry with Kelly.
I don't know why.
Perhaps I was jealous of her going free without me and concocted a version of events.
I do not regret much in life, but I do regret drag and Kelly into this.
I am here to tell you, and if necessary, the court, that I myself intentionally cause the death of decedent Vargas.
Speaker 1Holy shit, this has got to be as close to a get out of jail free card as you can get.
Right, the kind of thing that gets a case thrown out, charge is dismissed, except we already know that's not how it goes down for Kelly.
It's June twenty thirteen.
Kelly's in a pre trial hearing.
This is where the defense and prosecution can discuss any issues or questions surrounding the upcoming trial, what charges the prosecution will move forward with, what evidence will or won't be allowed in front of the jury.
That kind of thing presiding over everything is the Honorable Judge Laysack.
Speaker 2But that's not what Kelly and some of her fellow inmates know him.
Speaker 4As they called Judge Laysac mister murder.
Speaker 5They call him mister murder for two reasons.
Speaker 4He tries only murder cases, and he puts everyone away, so in essence, he murders them.
Speaker 1All the while, Kelly's been in court listening to the lawyer and the prosecutor go back and forth.
She's been chomping at the bit for her chance to chip in and ask.
Speaker 5Your honor, can I ever mission you addressed the corpses.
Speaker 1Now, defendants don't normally address the court unless ask the question, but Kelly is not like other defendants.
Speaker 4Judge Laysack says, talk to your lawyer.
I said, your honor is actually about my lawyer.
Speaker 1To say Kelly's k for the jury to hear Tommy's new confession is a colossal understatement.
But her lawyer, David Epstein, well, as far as Kelly's concerned, that's another story.
Speaker 5He just didn't care.
Speaker 1Kelly says, he doesn't want to bring up the letter at all, So now here she is taking matters into her own hands.
Speaker 2The judge nods at her to say her.
Speaker 6Peace, Your honor, I am in possession of an exculpatory letter from mister Donovan stating that mister Donovan acted alone and I in fact took no part in this whatsoever.
Speaker 1Kelly wants to call Tommy as a witness so he can tell his new story from the.
Speaker 4Dock without calling mister Donovan to my trial.
This is violating my right to a fair trial.
Speaker 1The judge looks down at kelly poker face, revealing nothing.
Speaker 2He ponders for a few moments while.
Speaker 1Kelly crosses her fingers, hoping she's done enough to convince him.
After an excruciating pause, the judge leans forward.
Speaker 5And he's like, miss Horn there, I don't know who.
Speaker 4You're talking to in a jail house, but he's saying it's not admissible.
Speaker 5I was like girls he talking about hearsay.
Speaker 1Hearsay in a legal sense, means telling the court what someone else told you, either in person or in this case, by letter.
Speaker 2It's not allowed.
Speaker 1You can only talk about what you know, did, or experienced firsthand.
Speaker 5That letter or whatever it is you have is her say there you start again, your honor.
Speaker 4At no point in time did I request the letter to be submitted into evidence.
Speaker 5I'm stating that I am in possession.
Speaker 6Of an exculpatory letter, which is leading to my request.
Speaker 7You have been called to testify on my behalf at my trial.
However, mister Epstein is refusing to call him.
Then mister Epstein, my attorney, deides with the judge and says, she seems to think here'say is admissible.
Speaker 5After what I just said, Like, what the hell is everybody.
Speaker 4Listening to.
Speaker 1Kelly can't understand why her own lawyer wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail to bring Tommy in unless he's working against her deliberately.
Speaker 5I don't know what to think.
Speaker 6But when you have something as earth shattering as high I'm the killer, your client is innocent, and you don't use it, you have to assess it and attest to the fact that he might have thrown this case.
I don't know how far does the rabbit hole, though.
Speaker 1I have to say I've not seen any evidence presented in court or otherwise that Kelly's lawyer was trying to lose the case on purpose, And unfortunately I'll never get the chance to ask him because he died in twenty seventeen.
I can see it from Kelly's perspective.
She's handing her lawyer what she thinks is a smoking gun, and he doesn't seem to want to know.
With even her own lawyer seemingly against her.
It doesn't take very long for Judge Laysac to shut down Kelly's request about the letter.
So for now, Tommy's original statement stand the ones that say Kelly was a willing participant in the murder.
Speaker 6It was awful and the trial I feel that I lasted before it began.
Speaker 1I'm Anisinfield and from the tea at novel and iHeart podcasts.
Speaker 2This is the Girlfriend's Gelhouse Lawyer.
Speaker 8Is Episode five.
Speaker 2Is He Dead Yet?
Speaker 1It's September fourth, twenty thirteen, the first day of Kelly Harnett's trial for the murder of Reuben Angel Vargas.
Like a lot of trials, this one will turn out to be pretty long and more than a little messy.
Before things even really get going, one of the original twelve jurors has to be let go, which then leads to a mistrial and the selection of a brand new jury, so the whole thing has to start all over again.
Eventually, things do get moving and everyone's ready to play their part.
Taking on the role of prosecutor is Assistant District Attorney Sean Clark.
And the first thing you should know about Sean is he's kind of a.
Speaker 4Dream boat when two minutes Clark ken he has dark hair, handsome with glasses.
Right, that's exactly what Sean looks like.
Speaker 1But unfortunately for Kelly, Sean isn't here to rescue her.
He's here to send her down, and he is very, very good at his job.
Kelly is facing two charges.
The most serious is murder in the second degree, which essentially means murder that wasn't premeditated.
The other charge is criminal possession of a weapon in this case that the shoelace.
Kelly actually had more charges before the trial began, another murder charge and three more for robbery, but they were all dismissed.
Despite this, Seawan Clark leans into the robbery angle in his story of the crime.
Speaker 2It's the primary motive.
Cool, Okay, should we do this?
Speaker 8Yeah?
Speaker 3Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1I looped in my producer Jake again, this time to be the voice of Superman Ekay Seawan Clark.
This next section is taken directly from official court transcripts.
Speaker 3What does make sense?
The likely reason why they got into an altercation with mister Vargas was to rob him.
That's the likely explanation here.
Did I pull that out of the air, No I pulled that out of the evidence.
Speaker 1In at least one of Tommy Donovan's statements, the oral one typed up by police, it says that Ken robbed Angel's wallet after the murder.
Tommy says he then took the cash out before throwing the wallet on the ground.
From police documents, we know that Angel Vargas's wallet was found roughly near his body.
Speaker 3In that wallet identification credit cards to City Bank cards, but no money.
What's on Tommy Donovan when the police stop him in his sock is sixty dollars three twenty dollars bills.
That's the likely motive for what happened.
Speaker 1One of the wildest parts of Tommy's multiple statements is that he says Kelly didn't just hand over the shoelace.
She actually physically put it around Angel's neck and pulled it before handing it over to Tommy.
Tommy then claims that after the attack, he walked away and looked back to see Kelly on top of Angel choking him again with the string.
But Sean Clark in the prosecut they're only going as far as to argue that Kelly kicked Angel and then handed over the shoelace, which is interesting because if you're trying to convict someone for murder, surely you'd want to tell a story that makes them seem.
Speaker 2As culpable as possible.
Speaker 1Kelly, of course, argues that Tommy took the shoelace from her foot, and when Tommy himself pulled it around Angel's snack, it snapped.
Speaker 4It snapped so fist and I remember thinking about that.
When I saw a snap, I got scared.
I said, he's going to come back over to me.
Speaker 1Now there is physical evidence to support this.
A broken white shoelace was found near the crime scene.
Kelly then says that Tommy finished strangling Angel with his belt, a theory that she says is also partially supported by physical evidence.
Speaker 4When you read the doctor's testimony, it clearly states that there was an indentation in the form of a rectangle that was unidentified right there.
Speaker 2Kelly's pointing to her neck.
Speaker 4I said, I can identify it.
It's a belt buckle.
So if you take away the allegation of handing a shoelace and put in the fact that he used his belt, the entire charge does not meet any element of the crime.
Speaker 1For me, In addition to Kelly's lawyer David Epstein not fighting to call Tommy as a witness, Kelly says he also doesn't want her taking the stand in her own defense.
This, honestly isn't all that unusual.
A lot of attorneys don't want to risk putting their client on the stand if they get up there and get flustered or say the wrong thing.
That's blood in the water for the prosecution.
But Kelly's worried they're missing an opportunity to make the jury really see what she went through as a victim of Tommy's abuse, something only she can truly explain.
Speaker 5If you don't mean to pictureize to that it was scared.
Speaker 6They need to hear more of it, Like maybe they need to hear from me, and many told me don't estify.
Speaker 1So if Epstein doesn't want the courts to hear from Kelly or Tommy, what is his case about.
Speaker 2Here's one angle he took.
Speaker 1Research shows that you can feel the effects of booze at about zero point.
Speaker 2Zero two percent blood alcohol level.
Speaker 1On the night of the murder, Angel's bloods came out at zero point thirty six.
His liver was also found to be enlarged and fatty, which is something commonly associated with chronic alcoholism.
In the trial, it's argued that Angel's drunken state could have led to the bruising found on his body by falling off his bike, for example.
But still it seems like there's no mention of Kelly's experience as a victim of domestic violence already, any context from her complicated life.
The prosecution has painted this really vivid picture of Kelly as a villain, but the defense doesn't really present an alternative story.
In fact, if you ask Kelly, she says, Epstein's approach basically amounts to Kelly's not guilty, and that's it.
Speaker 6I think it was more of a selfish reason than anything, because I think that he knew he was unprepared, and I think that he wanted to just play it seef.
Speaker 1But playing it safe is not going to cut it here, because the prosecution is about to unleash the biggest tool in their arsenal.
There's a witness who says he saw the whole thing, and the story he's got to tell looks really really bad for Kelly.
One late night in July twenty ten, Amando Perez is out jogging.
It's about two am on a balmy summer's night.
The sky up above is black.
The lights of Manhattan are flickering off in the distance.
Amando is out late because he's training for his football team or soccer.
Speaker 2If you must.
Speaker 1He's weaving through a story a park on his second lap when he says he hears something that brings him to a stop.
Someone screaming.
Amando ducks and hides behind a tree.
He says, he peers out into the darkness looking for where the scream came from.
His eyes land on a shadowy figure who's got a man in a chokehold on the ground.
The figure shouts at a woman standing nearby to kick the man he's holding down, which she does.
It's Tommy, Kelly, and Angel.
Amando says he hears Tommy ask Kelly to find a shoelace.
He watches as Kelly walks off, kicking at bags and a bicycle before returning with something and handing it to Tommy.
At this point, it dawns on him he's watching a murder.
Amando sprints off to get help.
Over the next hour, he runs into several people.
Firstly, he tells some cops in a nearby patrol car, but he says they just drive off.
Next, he tries flagging down some teenagers, but they just laugh at him.
In between these unsuccessful attempts to raise the alarm, Amando keeps heading back to near where Tommy and Kelly are.
He doesn't want to lose track of them.
Speaker 2He says.
He hears Kelly ask.
Speaker 1Is he dead yet.
Tommy replies that Angel is dead.
He's touched the body to be certain.
Then Amando sees him and Kelly hiding things in the woodchips on the ground.
Speaker 2Amando keeps leaving, trying to find help.
Speaker 1Eventually he comes across a group of four teenagers and one of them calls the police.
Once the police arrive, Amando walks them over to near where Angel's body is.
The police point out Tommy and Kelly and ask Commando if he's sure it was them.
Amanda replies, of course, I'm sure.
I've been watching them for over an hour.
Then Kelly and Tommy are taken away.
Amando is the key witness, essentially the core of the prosecution's case against Kelly.
With Tommy's statements, any defense lawyer worth their soult can argue he has a clear motivation to try and shift the blame onto Kelly.
But Amando, well, he has no obvious reason to lie.
Prosecutor Sean Clark described him as a completely independent eyewitness who doesn't know Kelly Harnett, has never met Kelly Harnett, has no reason to come in here and say negative things about Kelly Harnett.
Amando is a neutral party who can testify that he saw Kelly hand over the shoelace.
He doesn't actually ever mention anything about seeing Kelly strangle Angel, which is probably why the prosecution have decided to ignore that part of Tommy's statement.
But crucially, Amando also says that he saw Kelly kick Angel.
In his earlier police statements, he doesn't specify where on the body Angel was kicked, but by the time Kelly's trial rolls around, Amando says it was quote from the stomach to the chest.
He also says that Angel was lying face down, which is something Kelly takes issue with.
Speaker 5The person was face down.
That's an impossibility.
Speaker 4You cannot kick someone from the stomach to the chest if they are face down.
Speaker 1I interpret this a little bit differently to Kelly.
Amando could just be describing general areas of the body.
I think I'd say the same thing even if someone was being kicked from the side on.
Speaker 2But I'm no lawyer.
Speaker 1Instead, it's up to Kelly's defense attorney, David Epstein to cross examine the hell out of this witness, to keep poking holes in Amando's story until it's left in tatters on the courtroom floor.
So come on, David, dig deep, it's time to strike.
Speaker 4I surenest.
Speaker 5David Epstein stood up.
He dropped all the peoplework everywhere.
Speaker 4I said, Oh Jesus Christ, if this is foreshadowing, I'm screwed.
Speaker 1Amando's testimony makes for a compelling story, but especially according to Kelly, there are some holes in it if you look hard enough, and planted in those holes are some striking red flags.
The first has to do with language barriers.
Kelly claims that Amando can't really speak English, and police documents do show that his statement was transcribed for him by a cop.
I've looked at this written statement and there are phrases in it like where the scene was, which honestly does sound like something a cop would say.
I think we have to interrogate how much Amando understood his own statement or how his words could have been interpreted into helpful.
Speaker 2Shorthand by the police.
Speaker 1And obviously, if Amando can't fully understand English, it does call into question whether he could fully understand the things he claims he heard Tommy and Kelly say.
Another issue is that Amando really struggles with judging distances.
He claims at one point in the trial that he was maybe eight feet away from Tommy, Kelly an angel.
Then at another point he says he was about twenty feet away.
To me, both of these options seem like they would bring him way too physically close to Tommy and Kelly without being noticed, so I can't see.
Speaker 2How either could possibly be true.
Speaker 1Then in the courtroom, he's asked to judge a distance of about three feet.
Speaker 2But he's not able to.
Speaker 1And when Amando is asked to mark everyone's locations on the night of the murder on a map, Kelly spots more issues.
Speaker 4He tells the witness to put an X where the body was, an F where the female was in, an M where the male was.
Then he said put an ap Amanda Perez for his initials.
Now this, I just want to let everyone know those initials are taken on a bridge that you cannot.
Speaker 5Even get up on.
There's no way in God's green eerd that he was standing there.
Speaker 1But there appears to be some confusion, and at some point Amando seems to claim that the ex actually marks where he was standing, and this confusion about who was where.
Speaker 2It doesn't end here.
Speaker 1In the trial, the prosecution alludes to the fact that Kelly and Tommy moved Angel's body around eighty feet away from the actual.
Speaker 2Scene of the murder.
Speaker 1Prosecutor Sean Clark tries to make sense of it by saying that because the murder happened near a lit path, Angel's body could have been discovered.
Speaker 2He then says, if.
Speaker 3You drag him into the middle of the park, you drag him in the middle where there's no lights, He's not going to be found until morning.
Speaker 1But here's the thing, Amando never explicitly said he saw Angel's body being dragged.
None of his police statements reference the body being moved at all.
The police themselves also deny moving the body when questioned on this too.
This whole thing with the body being moved seems to be a tactic the prosecution lands on in order to explain away Amando's confusion over who and what was where.
The prosecution claims that all the dirt and grass on Angel's face and clothes show his body was dragged, But I don't by that those could easily have come from Angel trying to fight off Tommy while they were wrestling on the ground.
The theory that the body was moved also goes against physical evidence.
A shoelace was found right by Angel's body.
If he'd been moved eighty feet after he was killed, wouldn't the shoelace that the prosecution claim was used to kill him be much further away?
But next up is the biggest and reddest flag.
Speaker 2Of them all.
Speaker 1At one point in the trial, the prosecution decides to secure an easy win using a tried and tested tactic.
While Amando is on the stand, they ask him to point out the girl he saw kicking Angel Vargas, the girl he claims willingly handed over her shoelace moments before Angel was strangled to death.
Amando scans the courtroom and then.
Speaker 5He says, she's not here.
Speaker 2What the fuck?
Speaker 1After Amando's frankly unbelievable answer to the seemingly easy question, of is the woman you're testifying against here, the court goes into recess.
When everyone comes back into the courtroom, the prosecution try to ask Armando again, but it still doesn't go great.
He says, I'm not sure because it's been three years.
Some star witness for the record, I find the fact that this happened incredible, like a finale scene out of A Good Wife or something.
Amando doesn't even attempt an educate a guess.
Kelly is literally standing a few feet away from him at this point.
Of course, we do know that Kelly was in the park that night.
That's not up for debate even by her.
Maybe Amanda was just too far away to recognize her in court, especially all these years later.
But if he was so far away to the point that he's unable to identify Kelly when she's right there in front of him, doesn't Kelly have a point about this guy?
How much stock can we put into his testimony about what he could apparently see and hear from really far away in the middle of the night.
Given he's the prosecution star and only witness of the events of the murder, this has got to.
Speaker 2Put a dent in their case.
Speaker 1Kelly's lawyer, David Epstein certainly seems to think so.
Speaker 6He did state to me, well, being at the sory witness didn't even point you out.
I think that they are the ones that are on the weak side right now.
Speaker 1So I've told you about how things went down in the courtroom, some of what the prosecution argued and how the defense tried to fight back.
But there's another side we should hear from Angel's family.
I know that so far in this show, I haven't told you very much about who Reuben Angel Vargas was.
I'm also well aware that in many true crime series, too many the person who actually lost their life becomes something like a background character in their own story.
Their voice gets drowned out by everyone else's, including of course podcast host like me.
Part of the reason I haven't told you much is practical.
Unfortunately, we just don't know that much about Angel.
I tried and I failed to track down his family.
So I've pieced together snippets from articles and court documents, trying to patchwork together an impression of who this man was.
We know that Angel was likely an alcoholic, both from the evidence provided by the medical expert and also from Kelly, who says Angel had an AA chip on him.
Speaker 2We also know.
Speaker 1That Kelly claimed Angel sexually assaulted her on the night of the murder, which is objectively a horrific.
Speaker 2Thing to do.
Speaker 1But as Kelly has said herself, Angel didn't deserve to die that night.
I think it's only fair to take a moment to get to know him, to remember that he was someone's son, someone's uncle, in someone's brother.
So I'd like to read you a section from his sister's victim impact statement.
My name is Olga Vargas and the sister of Reuben Vargas.
In a few words, I'm going to tell you what he was like in person.
He was a good son, who was an excellent brother, who was a warm uncle and a very great friend.
He worked with everybody, He helped everybody.
We were a great, big family.
The last day that we were together was on July fourth.
We laughed, we played.
Nothing changed until July seventh, where we were given the sad news that had been unknown to us until that moment.
This changed life for all of us, for all those who knew him, especially our family.
Speaker 2I feel destroyed.
How can they feel, my parents that it's to lose the sun.
Speaker 1It's not easy to accept, to know the terrible way in which his life was taken.
Speaker 2My brother's life, my brother.
Speaker 1Is another victim who dies unjustly, and it's for him and all my family.
Speaker 2They asked for justice.
Speaker 1For Olga an Angel's family, justice means Tommy and Kelly going behind bars.
In another statement, Olga talks about their blows and their actions which caused her brother to suffer the death he did.
But for Kelly, justice means something very different.
Justice would been recognizing her as another victim of Tommy's violence.
For Kelly, justice would mean an acknowledgment that she was scared for her life too.
Justice would mean leaving the courtroom and going back to her mother and her brother Ronnie.
Speaker 2The trial draws to a close.
Speaker 1Now Kelly's fate is in the hands of twelve strangers.
Speaker 2The jury is ushered out to start their deliberation.
Speaker 1For Kelly, each minute that passes with no news feels like an hour, and each hour feels like a year.
Speaker 5I got scared.
I already didn't feel good about any of the trial.
Speaker 1Scenes from her own personal courtroom drama start running through Kelly's head.
Speaker 5Miss Horn, You're saying it's not admissible.
Speaker 3They got into an altercation with mister Vargas to rob him.
Fine, they drag him into the middle of the park.
He's not going to be found until morning.
Speaker 5Amanda Perez, he says, she's not here.
Speaker 3Did I pull that out of the air?
No, I pulled that out of the evidence.
Speaker 1And then the update everyone has been waiting for comes.
Speaker 2The jury has a verdict.
Speaker 4The heartbeat that you feel, I've never felt anything you close to that in my life.
Speaker 1As the twelve members of the jury fall back into the Queen's courtroom, a hushed silence falls.
Kelly holds her breath as Judge Lasac asks for their verdict.
Speaker 6They came back with the unanimous decision, and the verdict was.
Speaker 5Guilty.
Speaker 6I couldn't believe it because I was like, oh my god, what trial were they watching?
Speaker 5Because it was not mine.
Speaker 1Kelly turns around and finds her brother, Ronnie's eyes.
He's begged her over and over to plead guilty before trial, to take a deal in exchange for a shorter sentence.
Speaker 5He was in tears.
Speaker 9Oh my god, I'll never forget.
I'll never forget that, say, not seeing Ronnie in tears.
Speaker 1Kelly turns her gaze to the prosecutor, Sean Clark.
Speaker 5It was a stare down.
I was like, you, you son of a bitch.
Speaker 6You are never ever going to forget this moment.
Speaker 5I'm taking you down.
Speaker 1It would have been so easy for Kelly to give up and accept defeat in this moment.
But next time on The Girlfriend's Gailhouse Lawyer, Kelly goes to war with Sean Clark, Judge Laisac and everyone else she sees standing in her way.
Speaker 4I was found guilty.
Speaker 5I said, what do you want me to do?
She goes, ah, guilty, Shmelty.
Speaker 4I want to take your butt Todella Library and figure something out.
And this was the beginning of a seventeen month war of attrition.
Speaker 2You're a very unique person, Kelly.
Speaker 4Thank you.
Speaker 2I take that as a compliment.
It's a compliment.
It is a compliment for sure.
Speaker 1The Girlfriend's Gelhouse Lawyer is produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts.
For more from Novel, visit novel dot Audio.
The show is hosted by me Annasinfield and is written and produced by me and Lee Meyer, with additional production from Jako Taivich and Michael Jinno.
Our assistant producer is Madeline Park.
The editors are Georgia Moody and me Annasinfield.
Production management from Shari Houston, Joe Savage and Charlotte Wolfe.
Speaker 2Our fact checker is Daniel Suleiman.
Speaker 1Sound design, mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander.
Music supervision by me alis Infield, Lee Meyer and Nicholas Alexander.
Original music composed by Nicholas Alexander, Daniel Kempson and Louisa Gerstein.
Orry development by Nell Gray Andrews and Willard Foxton.
Creative director of Novel, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan are executive producers for Novel, and Katrina Norvell and Niki Eator are the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2And the marketing lead is Alison Cantor.
Speaker 1Thanks also to Carry Lieberman and the whole team at WME
