Hello, everybody.

My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.

This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin.

It's my mission to interview as many people as I can around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean for them and for their families and for their future.

I hope you enjoy the show.

Thank you so much for listening.

Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Once Bitten podcast.

Today we're joined by a bit saga, Robert, who runs that service and helps you, the discerning young gentleman or lady that is stacking into Bitcoin and you need that little extra help with your setup you want to cold storage your bitcoin but you want to do it properly correctly maybe you're a little you know put off by the the technical aspect of things many people have been in the past well you don't need to be anymore there are more services like this out there so in the spirit of everything that we talk about here do your own research find the people that you know maybe even in your area get out there have a look around Rob is doing a great job he's been doing this for a little while now he has the technical know-how he's got people that were willing to give him reviews so reach out to him as well once you've listened to this if you think this is a service that you might want to follow up with before we get into it I just want to give a big shout out to everybody that you know building products out there if you've not checked out plebeian.market.

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I know many of you listen to Dave Bennett's show as well.

He's been on a podcast a couple of times.

Coming back on again, a real fun rip with him coming up.

And he talks about the Circle P.

Well, plebeian.market, same kind of thing.

People that are accepting Bitcoin for their goods and services are coming together and building out this parallel economy.

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Bitten, excuse me.

and Bitbox bitbox.swiss forward slash Bitten come and say hi to them in Prague are you coming to Prague?

if not why not you can FOMO in hit the link in the show notes get to BTC Prague use the code Bitten and you'll get a 10% discount and when you're there you can come and see the Bitbox guys get one of these hardware wallets in your hand how does it work?

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There are 17,000, almost 17,000 members, all Bitcoiners, looking to connect with you.

Meanwhile, enjoy this rep with Rob.

All right, Robert, we're recording.

Great to meet you.

Great to be here, Daniel.

Thanks for the invite.

now Lauren would usually ask you the first question that she's unfortunately not around she's asked this question before of Jesse Myers and Andy Edstrom and I would love for her to be here to ask you this but she would ask you what is multisig what is multisig let me take the angle that it is nothing new it's also not tied to the digital space so basically it's protecting something with multiple keys and i haven't taken this angle before but i like it just pops into my head it used to be already applicable um hundreds of years ago in monasteries where there are key lock systems where three or multiple people have keys and you need not one but two keys to open, to enter the altar, whatever, safe, sacred, golden thing is locked away.

And so that principle is already rather old old and and the beautiful thing that that happens is in short is you eliminate the single point of failure of having one key that one monk can get well his key can get stolen whatever um and and these principles these evergreen principles these are very beautiful to um to see come back in bitcoin right single point of failure we're all aware of that concept that's why decentralization is so so strong so i'm already ranting here but multi-seek yeah protecting something with multiple keys and it's already pretty ancient and i think it's a beautiful very underrated uh let's talk more about it uh thing in bitcoin absolutely yeah absolutely and the reason uh i would have led her so very well explained and a 13 year old would have absolutely understood 14 excuse me uh she would have understood exactly what you're talking about.

So BitSaga, that's what you've created.

So what is the premise of BitSaga and what is the offering?

The premise, the offering is navigating the complexity of securing your Bitcoin and not so much the why part of Bitcoin, which is I guess many of the podcasts and you and content and books and talk about and we love to talk about why we Bitcoin.

The BitSaga approach is okay you get that part I want to have a piece of my portfolio all in whatever in Bitcoin how do I do it?

That's where BitSaga comes in because we get rather quickly not your keys not your coins buy a harder wallet and stored offline but that's not where it ends that's where it begins for a lot of situations and then you are looking into realms into more advanced realms passphrase jamirs multi-sig and and that's even after understanding bitcoin it's already pretty daunting and complex and then doing the how part that's another realm another black hole of complexities and that's just where we help many of our clients are boomers high net worth individuals and they just they just don't have the the mental bandwidth the time the effort to um like many of of the bitcoiners like a maniac be comparing articles and and and whatnot what is the best approach here and then try to poke holes in companies and and because there's already so much out there in hardware tooling and software tooling um in approaches how to secure it so that is the offering to make these complexities easier that is the main uh question people worry about their bitcoin and at the end of the road it's It's about peace of mind to hold your peace of freedom with peace of mind.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you're so right.

There is a lot of noise out there around the kind of different ways that you can do this.

And a lot of shaming, to be honest.

You know, you're not a Bitcoiner if you don't do X, Y, and Z.

And, you know, you're an idiot if you use this device.

and you're not private enough and you're not transacting properly.

And it's very overwhelming, even for those that have been in the space for a long time, you know, mixing it up with the guys on Twitter and whatever else.

And every now and then you see something that comes up and you're like, oh, that just seems very difficult.

I mean, I remember when Seedsigner came onto the scene, you know, like DIY signing devices.

And that just broke my mind.

I'm like, oh my God, what?

Like we should be doing that now?

Like this is wow.

Like, you know, and building and running your own node.

And here we are at time of recording.

We right in the middle of this op return debate Many Bitcoiners probably haven even heard heard about return and don realize that there was already a huge argument about this back in 2013 and 14 And here we are repeating the same stuff.

It's endless.

The rabbit holes are so deep and they're so convoluted.

And this does, to the detriment of some people, it turns them off.

And maybe they stop looking at Bitcoin and maybe they stop stacking.

and maybe they just want to leave it on the exchange because that's easier and just watch the number go up and then I'll sell it without going that next step.

Because the barrier to entry does seem a little bit too high, a little bit too confusing, whereas it isn't.

And consulting services like yours, I think, yeah, bring more on.

We need more of them.

I know there are others out there and we have BTC sessions.

There's great videos.

So people can go and watch that on YouTube.

But sometimes people just want someone at the end of the line.

So if I'm the guy, right, if I'm the guy that's been stacking and I feel as though I've done all the right things, I've bought my Bitcoin, I've dollar cost averaged, it's got to a point every six months or so where it gets too much on the exchange.

I pull it off onto my hardware wallet.

The one I think was the best decision that I made at the time, regardless of what's come afterwards.

but it's all on one key.

And I think multi-sig, what is that?

That just sounds so convoluted.

So I would get in touch with BitSaga.

So how would that look?

What would be the kind of the walkthrough that you would help somebody with in that particular position?

Yeah, so the main thing here, the main problem we're solving is worry.

People worry about their Bitcoin holdings and they want some more peace of mind and want some more confidence.

And I've talked to some OG Bitcoiners who have absurdly safe layers of encryption setups and they worry about their setup not being secure enough.

and some people have eight digits on an exchange and they do not worry and then that's not our client so that is the main starting point problem people just realize that a lot can go wrong internal factors your own mistakes and external factors what not government so that is the driving force that people reach out or that resonate and then multistake is just one of the solutions that can apply to a situation but it's not a hammer for every nail or how does the saying go that it's dangerous to go multistake too quickly it is a complex thing sometimes often it really also depends on the client sometimes it's just setting up acquisition be that DCA or through OTC or private markets and a harder wallet most of the time it is multi-sig and then you also get into the question of okay when at what amount would you would you uh rob would you consider multisig and i think that's a very hard question but overall because it has gotten so much easier and and we should definitely talk about that half a bitcoin one which is a relatively low amount um i think it's it has become very viable five years ago most definitely not that number would have been way higher because of the obnoxiousness of how you would have done multi-sig, proper multi-sig back then.

So that being said, the process of how that usually goes, and that's way more than 50% of clients, is they either hold significant funds on an exchange or on a ledger, specifically a ledger.

um yeah that and and you can also you can already derive that um bitcoiners as we as you and i know them right are not the most common client of bits i do get them um but it's more the high net worth individual boomer so when these people have or enter bitcoin and they have a significant stack and they want to upgrade their security, they worry about it.

They got a stack on a ledger and they are just aware of, yeah, this is not how it's supposed to be, just not comfortable anymore.

They're not aware of all the issues with ledger.

When you list them up, people do tend to take, okay, yeah, I didn't know that.

But the process, the approach of BitSaga really is, there is no one size fits all solution.

It's all custom.

It's all tailor fit.

Your situation is different than the next client.

You're going to have different holdings.

You're going to have your family situation is going to be different.

Your frequency of buying, selling, your behavior is just going to be different.

Your background, your technicality.

And that's a beautiful, that's the beauty of having so many hardware and software solutions out there that the approach really is okay what is your situation what are your worries what are the holes in your current setup that you might not be aware of and then let's let's fix that what is your main plan are you on mobile or are you on desktop often tablet whatever um can you have co-signers is it family related is it just one person other's familia so how is the situation look and then we're going to look at the right tooling and the right apps um recovery backup everything but it's always a tailor-fit solution often multi-stick often coming from pretty horrible situations exchanges the worst right and then ledger is very very common so for those people you might have piqued their interest now if they're like yeah i'm the guy with the ledger and i'm the guy that's now kind of worried about what you said and i'm the guy that has half to a bitcoin and i'm the guy that's not really particularly sleeping that well at night uh what what was the what would be the first thing you'd say about like that particular device and why they should probably think about at least first step changing that yeah let's talk about ledger indeed because i mean i've had a ledger all of us probably have had a ledger at some point um let's just list them up first of all and the main huge red flag is that it's closed source a lot of most of the important parts and that is that is the big one open source being a code uh not just verifiable but that it's viewable by everyone that no fishy things are happening and that everyone can verify that's your assets um that they're not extracting them in some weird way or whatever, that there is no trust involved.

Closed source being you would have to require the company involved.

So that is really so fundamental.

It's not just the principles of Bitcoin.

It is a principle of security.

Many security tools have to be open source.

Your password manager, your VPN, that is a fundamental part of security.

So that, secondly, their recovery service, that they have a cloud backup solution they offer, that is so inherently broken.

The whole approach of safe self-custody is keeping it offline.

writing 12 words on a piece of paper is self-custody so um the recovery of servers their cloud service when they launched it they received a significant shitstorm for it and rightfully so and then also the reactions of management c-levels who in interviews went if they get certain questions by certain organizations and or governments that they would and have to and shall maybe have comply with those secondly thirdly while back people entering the space will probably never might never hear about it but the data leak that they had where they leaked all their purchase orders, private information of people who have ordered a ledger, their hardware wallet on their website, alongside the private addresses of these people.

And this is to this day, in my opinion, one of the worst things that has ever happened in the space because that's not just about, which is horrible, life savings and funds but about personal security that's about people showing up on your doorstep um and then there's a fourth thing yeah so that's third fourth the devices are just not janky in my opinion absolutely when you have felt let me start off with when you buy a ledger the newer devices, you're satisfied.

You're good.

You're happy that you have taken that step that you have delayed for so long and that you're going to store your crypto, probably if you're buying a ledger or your Bitcoin offline, save, good.

You tell yourself, I did good.

You have this confirmation bias.

But for me now, having the luxury of comparing these devices to many of the other alternatives that are out there, they're just not great devices.

They are very low build quality.

They are not nice to work with.

Protocol multi support fingerprinting technical details they not following the rules of the game always which makes them hard to work with other keys in multisig If Ledger is one key and you have other devices, they sometimes not work well together because they're not following the rules.

So that's actually the fifth reason.

So there's quite a lot of reasons to avoid Ledger.

especially also because there are so many great alternatives out there, open source ones, DIY buildable ones who don't have companies behind them saying, yeah, we'll just comply with government orders or have had data leaks or do actually have great build quality.

So, yeah, avoid ledger at all costs if you are considering these things and there's so many great alternatives.

You've just dropped this on somebody on their first call and they're sitting there with a ledger or maybe two or maybe three and they're ready to sign up.

Is that now, what would you say?

Like go and replace these keys and do you need three and would you mix those up or would you go, what's the advice?

So here's the thing, and especially among Bitcoiners, Shitting on Ledger is very popular and easy.

But I have to throw in here that you cannot say that these devices are not secure.

And that's what this is about.

You want to secure your funds full stop.

You want it to be easy and not too difficult.

There is no, not a single publicly documented case where funds, user funds have been stolen, where the security of a ledger device had been compromised was the cause of users losing funds.

So we can't say, I can't say that these devices are insecure.

an open source device with a different approach company and all the way through supply chain and whatnot is going to be more secure.

But you can't say, so that's a little side note on the other end of the spectrum because I love to shit on ledger, but you also have to be aware of, you don't have to panic now because of all the reasons listed that you now have to go and grab a new one and then which one.

so that being said yes it is a good reflex if you have a ledger currently to switch it out for one of the better objectively better alternatives out there absolutely be that multiple devices, multi-sig, that depends on your stack.

And as I said, BitSire doesn't really have a fixed approach there in determining whether multi-sig is the right fit.

Often it is.

Often it is, of course, strongly related to how much funds are protected.

But also what happens very often is that I have no idea how many funds are being protected.

It can be even with in-person onboardings, which is the most common onboarding, which is the signature service.

I prefer to, and it often happens, that I don't know how much funds are involved.

Oftentimes, you have reached a certain threshold and Multisig does apply.

and approaching it with a multi-vendor, multi-sig approach where you have multiple different devices does make a lot of sense to spread your risk.

Again, single point of fail, if anything were to happen with one of these devices companies, that's the principle there to consider different devices for your different keys if you're considering multi-sig.

but I've set up three passports for the same client who just liked the device don't have it laying around with me it is such a premium high build quality device and you like it so much coming from especially if you have a ledger you have your passport and you're like yeah I just like this one you have these I'll just take two more of these so it really does depend but that's the passport by foundation yeah that you're talking about foundation passport core they've just rebranded it to core the prime device uh with touchscreen is coming out real soon but uh huge fan of indeed the the foundation passport core more premium device 250 euros but the usability the build quality the software um the mobile app it's all there it's great it's top notch all the way through okay excellent all right and so yeah and you were saying you you you want to write or you're going to get around to writing uh an article uh going through all of the different uh hardware and software options out there oh devices indeed hardware the the hardware wallets you want to go through the devices and the hardware wallets the devices indeed so the list is currently 15 also includes a laptop, an air-gapped laptop, which is the OG hardware wallet, actually, has to be included.

And then every device that's currently out there, Bitcoin-focused.

So Ledger's not going to be in there for the reasons I mentioned.

Let's see how many I can get.

So you've got Bitbox, obviously, supported the show for a long time.

Big fans, love what they do.

swiss based uh very focused on uh that they're very proud of being open source and they're very proud of the you know they don't have any clunky buttons everything's kind of um touch and it's very sleek it's beautiful i love it then you have you've got uh jade uh block streams um hardware wallet uh you have um which is which is two now oh they've got two Yeah.

The old Jade, the very cheap one.

Yeah.

And then the Jade Plus, the new Jade Plus.

Okay.

All right.

Yeah.

Which is a significant step up.

So that would be now we're up to three devices, right?

Correct.

Okay.

Then you have the offerings from CoinKite.

I almost said CoinCorner, they're the exchange.

CoinKite, the cold card.

How many?

That's what you're holding up right there.

Is that the, which one's that?

This is the queue.

you also have the the mark four okay those are the two there's are those are there too yeah uh trezor obviously one of the uh the og companies and they have their there you go you've got the bitcoin only one is that does that have canute sign on the back uh is that a no i don't think so um it's just a very shiny nice finished uh the the newer bitcoin only trezor indeed this one Yeah, a nice key design being Bitcoin only.

So you mentioned the laptop, just having the laptop.

My goodness, who am I missing?

You already mentioned, well, harder wallets, signing devices, the seed signer.

The seed signer, of course.

Also has to be in there.

The DIY option, yes.

crux also falls in the diy option which are you can buy small computer screens i can actually i have that one let me grab that real quick yeah sure oh it's my here i will also forget i will also forget this one uh this is a crux it is not a device that you You buy a device on AliExpress somewhere, China, cheap, and you load the Crocs firmware onto it.

These are IoT devices.

There's a small camera in here, and it has a touchscreen.

This is just...

How do you spell that?

Crocs, K-R-U-X.

It's just a firmware.

It's not a device.

These are IoT devices used for some IoT tooling, whatever people use them for.

They have a list of devices that you can use to load the Crux firmware on.

And it works very similar to a SeedSigner.

SeedSigner, you have to build yourself from off-the-shelf components like a small Raspberry Pi Zero.

And this is just an off-the-shelf component that you can buy like this.

and then you put the crux firmware on it and it's an air gap also qr signing uh device and there's a couple devices that can work with crux um very similar to the seat signer approach sorry diy and are we missing any um like standalone uh companies that that we've just gone through that list who else are we missing yeah who else are we missing um so we had jbitbox keystone ah right okay yes um some don't think they are um there's some very nice things about this um they are a shitcoin company but they have bitcoin only firmware and this is a device um it's rather cheap it's touchscreen it's one of the only touch screen so the usability of this is through the roof.

Second to none.

There is, in my opinion, not a device that is in its basic functions, just sending and receiving Bitcoin.

That's easier than this keystone.

But it's got an internal battery, camera, great device, but more in the mediocre range in build quality.

It's a budget $140, $150 price range.

And they also have some issues in multi-sick compatibility.

They also have some issues with their support.

So I used to like them a lot.

And I've had some lesser, not so smooth experiences with them.

We also didn't get sorted out all that smoothly.

So yeah, they dropped in ranking in BitSaga's regard.

But if you want something that's very easy, very budget Keystone is a fair device.

I love that they have this Bitcoin-only firmware.

So else up on the list, I'm thinking very new player in the game, the Cardware.

Cardware.

Cardware, yeah.

this is a very interesting super i love this thing um 74 bucks so jade watch out because jade as the as the budget option in my opinion has been dethroned there is no reason to look at the base jade model anymore it is such a janky device i do not like it i i stopped selling them um and these devices as a budget option it's really great.

There's no internal battery.

AirGap device got these buttons works really simple.

They've got some kinks to iron out still but as the budget option in Bitcoin hardware wallets love it.

They've got some unique things going on.

Cardware if you're on a very tight budget, if you're a student you're saving your first couple hundred, couple thousand in Bitcoin cardware, that's going to be your tool.

above the jade and what's the one uh like jack dorsey was part of like bit key bit key that's right kind of a hexagonal looking kind of yeah yeah yeah i should still actually i guess add that to the lineup to compare um but as far as i know it's also closed source um and and there's a spending limit in your transactions really good depending on your on your setup as i've understood yes um it's also blind signing transactions it is a two of two multi-sig under the hood they're not um so clear about that um haven't looked might be i might be saying some things that aren't completely correct here but would like to have a deeper look at that device because it is they profile themselves as a very easy to use a very end user hardware wallet but yeah there's some things to frown about yeah I've not played around with one I've had a lot of people tell me that meh um which is unfortunate but uh okay and then i just found another one here i just went through a quick list uh keep key i again i've not played around with one of those i don't think i've ever seen one keep key i think it's also going to be um multi-coin shitcoin support um i do have i'm gonna grab it the one key the one key pro then the more high end it's also a shitcoin hardware wallet, they don't have Bitcoin only firmware, but the Sparrow desktop wallet, which is a very popular desktop software wallet has support for the OneKey now, and so that made me, okay, I'll throw that in as a real shitcoin wallet, just to compare them, and it's a pretty high end device, it's touchscreen, it's very nice, aluminum body even, so and that's the angle that BitSaga is overall taking a bit more premium high-end where the usability is also very important not just i'm on a very tight budget i think 100 bucks is too much for a harder wallet um so the keep key is not going to be in there one key yes they have a more budget device i'll only be including the the one key pro um this one i still have one lying around you're not gonna guess this one is also a touchscreen it's also diy 3d printed case um very unique feature here is that you can have smart cards like seat keeper and insert it into its butt and so that you have an interchangeable secure element actually um spectre diy this is spectre diy right okay spectre yeah i was thinking about making also like the seed signer cnc aluminum case for this one um but i like the seed signer so much it it you are the software it's just yeah that's the route i'm usually taking how how do you address people i i know everybody's completely different even the people that are down the rabbit hole on this stuff air gapped versus non-air gapped because you've got so this this part of the argument this is where the shaming and the point of thinking point of finger uh finger pointing comes in and um you know you got very strong advocates of uh partially signed bitcoin transactions and air gapping and this that and the other thing and you've got other guys that are like yeah no that doesn't actually make a difference and bitbox themselves have written a blog about how air gapping is um kind of overhyped uh maybe i mean what for for a general user it is another layer of friction i'll just say that uh what what are your takes um i'm going to agree with the large part and disagree with one part.

I'm going to agree with the Bitbox statement going this is not what Bitbox is saying, but this is what I'm saying is that I see this a lot and it's called security theater.

It is massive sometimes obnoxious.

I've seen crazy encrypted setups security theater all the way through and it's becoming dangerous even more for loss not for external things so air gapping as a security measure it is not necessary again just like with the ledger there are no devices being hacked because they are being plugged in over usb it could it doesn't there are no public accounts available of usb harder wallets being hacked where user funds were user funds were stolen where the fact that they were over usb or something about their software just like with ledger you can't say so in that sense it is security theater and it is not um necessary to do at all you can keep your funds you can keep a lot of funds secure on usb based be that multiple hardware wallets absolutely but what i and that's where i'm going to disagree uh with with you i think daniel is i like the air gapping because it is so much easier to use.

I am a huge proponent of QR-ing the QR codes.

Everyone knows QR codes.

Every normie knows QR codes.

You can now QR code everything, not just your transactions, your PSPT, but also your private key, your multisigna script.

Everything can be a QR code.

Just turn on your device, point it to your QR code, press confirm, and it's another QR code that you just have to scan boom done that's the workflow of the foundation passport whereas let's compare that to bitbox and trezor all the usb based devices nothing wrong with these devices but i personally less like them because you can't just power them on you have to plug them in that's one and then you have to enter also in bitbox i don't like it also on trezor you have to unlock the devices are encrypted you have to unlock them some pin coins some some password um to to decrypt the devices and it's a bit clunky especially in my opinion um on bitbox buttons they take some getting used to they work okay but if you've got a long word it takes some time and compared to you take your foundation passport you there's a battery there it's replaceable you put it on turn it on there's six six digits pin code just like a nokia device and you're in and if you compare that to many of the usb based devices also cold card mark 4 can work usb based um there it's actually okay it's also just a pin code but the buttons are clunky so that is my main reason why I'm such a big proponent of air gapping the devices because they can work so much easier especially in the context of multisig where you have to sign a transaction with multiple devices and you can just do it by scanning QR codes it's lovely it clicks so much faster than having to plug in devices.

So it works also easier with your mobile device.

Many people are mobile first now.

They don't have a laptop anymore.

And just showing who you are on your mobile and signing with your hardware wallet.

So the usability is heavily underrated of the air gapping, in my opinion.

Absolutely.

okay so that would limit the person then to a device that has a camera well i don't want to say i i will refrain from from going this is what you should do i do have strong preferences and i i i try to and again it depends on the person not be too vocal about these but it's because it's like the question what's what's now what's now the best one rob and and It's like asking what's the best car.

It really does depend.

But for every single one of my clients, it has to be easy.

It has to be easy, except for some obnoxious Bitcoin OGs.

Most of my clients, it has to be easy.

And usability is security.

It is the most underrated security feature.

because the devices do not get hacked.

Again, they don't.

They just don't.

Users get hacked all the time.

There's so many obnoxious amount of phishing emails going around.

Everyone gets them on a fucking daily basis.

I swear on this podcast.

Because they work.

People, last week or two weeks ago, a senior individual 300 million in bitcoin stolen through an advanced phishing attack they just work these attacks so the usability of a device is so much underweight you can have a whole lot of security features and not be the most usable.

And that is so much so underrated where if a device guides a user to proper and often happens but the overall usability of devices is um the main differentiator here um in in in my approach at least they're all secure they can all sign secure bitcoin transactions um some have some great features some are but the usability that is the the main decision maker um yeah that should be taken into account way more than many of the security features i mean seed xoring i mean what what kind of obnoxious alt is this seed xoring is that's that's that's a stupid security theater feature absolutely hate it make it easy that's yeah the companies they have to do that way more in my opinion.

Okay, so now somebody who's looking to set this up has the devices on hand so they'll order them, wait for them to be delivered, set up the next call.

What's the next step that you would talk someone through?

Well, so usually let's get that clear and to some, especially Bitcoin, it's going to be maybe weird, but most of the setups that BitSaga does are in person.

So I bring along a whole truckload of hardware wallets, backups, recovery, toolings, even UB keys, two-factor authentication keys.

We can talk about those.

Temp Revenant bags, anything that we could ever need, even Start9 nodes.

And then we do the full setup, full day.

That's it.

So that's what most of the time happens.

And then we do the full setup, full day often.

I didn't realize that.

So you'd get on a plane and fly over.

Is it just you or is it a couple of you?

Exactly.

It's mostly me.

Indeed, a lot of clients are Benelux.

But indeed, that is the approach.

Of course, American, Dubai, Hong Kong, I mean, clients all over the world.

but it's the digital approaches in meeting, in just you and I talking to each other, they are very much possible and they can be anonymous.

But they are so much less.

There's a lot more friction there.

Users having to say what's on their screen.

Oftentimes something goes wrong or something is unexpected.

Something goes.

Some of these flows I can do blind now.

I know exactly the UI of the foundation passport by head, but that's a way more preferred approach.

And that has grown to be from clients' demand, not because I was pushing, invite me into your house and then I'll explain everything to you.

It's not a very Bitcoin privacy approach that just grow naturally by demand.

These people, they want that in-person concierge service oftentimes.

The digital guidances are, of course, possible and happen.

And then, to that being said, order a device, let's say foundation passport or even just the card where it's going to be a budget device.

there's always a lot of questions even before starting and then getting to know the device setting it up sometimes that's very smooth sometimes some things get wrong you really noticed that these are not iPhones.

iPhones are multi-generational polished products and I don't think I can say that any of these devices are issue free.

All have at least some major issue going on in my opinion.

So that's what happens.

People order guide guidance happens over call sometimes but mostly in person yeah and again there's no fixed approach there sometimes it's a call and a family member in another country has by that time already received their harder wallet and we do a distributed multi-seek setup with people in different countries as family members or it's just to call a harder wallet to replace a ledger um and then it's just setting creating a new setting up a new harder wallet and and moving over to doing the test transaction right first the small one getting the cold stored so you don't have to get the cold sweats um and then the and then the big one um it takes so many different shapes and sizes i love that that's just my approach here i love that there's no one size fits all fixed protocol here um some companies do and i mean that that that can work really great because these many of the principles do come back um yeah but it it's it's always different it's always it's different challenges different requirements different solutions yeah so you mentioned start nine so you'd even be able to turn up and set somebody up to run their own node first and then show them how to probably uh interact with the wallets with that node to get everything set up and then obviously the different list of words teach them how to get that all completely uh well how do you advise them to split it up?

Like the three or the five, whatever they're using.

Yeah, this is a very hard part.

Let's say a client has some funds and we set up new devices, let's say three passwords just for argument's sake.

and this is always a very difficult question that people ask me.

Now, where do you keep it?

You have to return to the principles here.

You want to avoid a single point of failure.

People are coming from an exchange which is a huge point of failure of one ledger which is a single, still a single point of failure.

Every backup is one.

So you ideally, it's not always the case, We can talk about a hybrid multi-seq setup.

Ideally, you want to keep your three keys in three different locations.

It doesn't have to be, but that is the main one and three cold keys.

So banks, notaries, family members, other private locations, private vaults, other private apartments, houses that you might have, some separate location that you don't have direct access to family members tend to be rather popular in multi-setups because if one member has significant funds in bitcoin he very often has embarked upon the journey of orange billing at least some of his family members and has succeeded in some sense or and he shares some stack or he has shared some so yeah that's a very popular approach sometimes that is not possible and one person has to manage the full multi-sig wallet if there's very young kids involved and you want to be aware of inheritance also always very important question that comes up a lot it's very difficult but bank vaults Bitcoiners are going to be very don't keep your keys at a bank i mean even custody don't i mean but the beautiful thing about that is you have the natural inheritance off-chain inheritance on-chain inheritance is now also becoming more popular with things like that as far um notaries and have it written in a will uh have it documented these things they automatically inherit down to your next generations um and and these are very strong um they give people comfort these approaches private faults some people especially who do already have private faults um for gold there's a huge overlap with the gold bug community and then those who are who have clicked with bitcoin right um there is no again there is no fixed answer here but don't keep it in one location and keeping it in a different location but it's okay to enter multi-sig if you just want to explore it and not force yourself into different locations depending on the situation, depending on the stack, right?

You can keep one key on your phone, a hot key and one harder wallet laying around and then one backup key somewhere else so you still in some sense have a single point of failure because someone might enter your house and you can um move all your funds then you have decoy wallets um so you don't have to take that approach there's many different configurations here possible right especially with multiple keys um banks notaries private faults other locations those are the locations that are um most common right good excellent and then somebody's set up and they're good to go so i think i think we've gone through the well what's the if anybody's interested they should just go to the website but uh you know do you have a price structure that you want to tell people about uh i know there's a like a free 30 minute consultation call and that's directly with you uh and um yeah how do you intend to to build out this service because or do you do do you hope just to keep it just you what what's your what's your plan so to answer the first part the pricing um the most common approach is the signature service which is 1250 for a full day because these setups tend to take a full day um setting up the full wallets uh also recovery backup scenarios lots of questions very important force and stress scenarios and travel expenses would be covered on top of that that would be separate yeah hardware and travel expenses on top of that indeed that's the that's the service in and of itself and that's most common um first 30 minute calls always free explore get to know each other what's your situation um there's also an hourly but the signature service that most popular because it just seems to resonate with people that to have a tailor fit solution for them the right hardware devices for them the right tooling app desktop software wallets for them.

So that is the most common popular formula.

That is always me.

the approach there I do work with a couple of other guys but it is mostly a one man army I do have from my previous existing startup there's this movement within X now it's called solopreneurs where you go solo and you build an entire company with AI tooling in different aspects.

The ambition is great, though, to be a reference name in Europe.

You want premium Bitcoin security?

Yeah, that's where you got to go.

So I'm not sure if I will be able to pull it off by myself all the way through.

but for now that is that is the approach yeah that is the current pricing structure that's um is also not going to stay that's probably going to um go up soon um but yeah this is inter-service the custom fit that's uh that's the approach all right so i guess we should figure out then you know a little bit more about you uh what what was your past fiat career uh what's brought you hear and there's there's always an origin story for you know the bitcoiners out there to to kind of um feel some kind of connection with your rabbit hole journey yeah it's been it's been quite a journey absolutely um i'm a software engineer by trade i got into this relatively early on but of course as many of us got distracted with um many altcoins and i went deep i went into the trenches as they say um aggregated leveraged yield farms on avalanche i wrote smart contracts on ethereum minted my own nfts um i went all the way yeah five digit percentage yields um pump and illegal pump and dump schemes i've joined i'm allowed to say that um yeah and you you keep digging right you get distracted by the icos in the 17 cycle um but having the technical background i i was always very intrigued by how these things work under the hood.

And the white papers, not understanding over 30% often of these highly technical, mathematical, academical readings, but that has led me on the journey and the main pivotal point for me was the Lightning Network white paper.

And then also seeing and feeling the implementation of being able to pay someone by QR code and it working on your phone, you can see.

And that's like a huge, has been a huge light bulb moment for me.

And then you learn that many of these, the main thing that many of these shit coins say is how fast they are.

transactions per second the tps metric gets thrown to your face nowadays a little less so and then you learn okay light indicator of bitcoin okay and you you see the bright orange light um take some time took a long time but that is a bit um how i got into it um always been relatively technical at some point bit saga was actually a payment gateway provider for merchants they want to accept bitcoin and then i would have the the cloud infrastructure btc pay server um for merchants to accept bitcoin transactions in their web shop but from my experience there isn't wasn't a whole lot of demand for that where there is was a lot of demand for is the harder wallets everyone wants a harder wall everyone wants a ledger everyone's harder wall and then the consultancy side is now actually has now actually become the core of the business.

So that's been, I guess, a little bit of the origin story.

And in the meantime, at the start of last year, when BitSaga was taking off, Stripe, the payment gateway provider, decided to de-platform us.

and no payments were possible anymore.

Bitcoin, of course, that always works, but over 50% is going to be fiat payments.

And their chat message to me on X was, I guess it was some intern.

It was very unluckily worded where you have to remove the miners from your website.

Would you be willing to do that in order for us to restore the service or something like that.

And I was like, wait, are you kidding me?

That's not how this works.

I mean, this is the revolution.

I was freaking furious about that.

And I threw out some big words and that took off.

A lot of people saw that, where this BitSaga small merchant was being blackmailed by Stripe, this payment giant into not providing his Bitcoin miners anymore.

And that was a wild thing to see.

That absolutely exploded.

But that's where I'm at right now.

They do not provide service.

They de-banked you?

They de-platformed me.

And then a while back, that was absolutely crazy.

Without warning, without message, my private, I had two banks at the time, my private account, my business account, my checkings account, my savings account, all of it got blocked.

No cards were working, no nothing.

couldn't log in, no nothing.

And nobody at any bank could tell me what was going on, why it was going on, or any useful information at all.

Some investigation is ongoing.

And that was absolutely wild.

This is just like your high street bank that you've used for like, God knows how many years.

KBC and Belfius, two main banks in Belgium.

what yeah i've been there for my entire life my family has been there for their entire life and they um called angrily and some investigation is ongoing kbc unbanked me for four months without message without warning never in the whole time up until this day they never none of the banks gave me a reason why they did what they did to block me entirely.

And that was infuriating.

My wife was 36 weeks pregnant.

I couldn't pay invoices.

When I went to the grocery store, I forgot my cars and I had to go back home to get cash and pay for it.

On my way to Bitcoin Amsterdam, saying I couldn't stop by the side of the road.

I was going to sell some Bitcoin for cash there.

You can't stop to buy drinks, food, because your cards aren't working.

It is so pervasive, so the power that they have over you, me as a Bitcoiner.

And you can pay everyone with Bitcoin and clients can always pay with Bitcoin on the website.

it is so abstract when you read about it but when you experience it to get ejected from the system you feel the power that they have over you it is scary and they just can and will and not just Russian or Chinese dissidents this is just a guy building a fair transaction history of everything People can order anonymously on the website.

But that was absolutely crazy to experience that.

And by now I have my accounts back and I will never know why.

I have some assumption, of course.

Peer-to-peer transactions were made.

Not very big ones.

That's going to be, that was the trigger most likely.

um but wow yeah just eject you from the system like you say until you've experienced it you you can't you read about it or you hear other people's stories uh well i know peter peter mcormack was debanked by i think it was lloyd's uh like that the high street bank he'd used since he was like 13 or something yep no no more what and then you can't get your money and i've had a few other people on here barclays bank debanked people here in the uk uh i know yeah only keep as much fear as you're willing to lose right like that's that is the you want some backup cash somewhere, I suppose, and just move it all into Bitcoin slowly but surely over the next year or two, because it's only going to get worse.

There's reports out of Spain now that if you try and take more than 3,000 euros, they're going to fine you 150,000 or something.

It's like, what?

This is nonsense.

It's almost unbelievable.

And that's probably part of the trick.

absolutely and it's that's why we do what we do right but in the EU it's not the banks really it's not it the banks who are afraid of the regulator the laws because they just get fined obnoxious amounts if they can show where that euro is coming from The banks, this is something I've learned, the banks do not want your money.

They don't, unless they know where it's coming from.

That's the thing that you now see consistently in the EU.

and that's being becoming more pervasive with the eu travel rule not just mica they they want to know every single euro where it's where it's coming from with private details and in in in crypto more so than in fiat but in fiat also so that is the source it's not the banks it's it's the obnoxious regulations that the EU is imposing on itself that is that is the source here and and that is I'm afraid and it's so boring the conversation that we gotta have you have to talk with these people who are so out of touch with what we are what we believe to be true right and and we can do this bottom up grassroots and that's how this is happening but but that is part of the conversation ludmila koslovska is is doing great work uh on that front in the eu shout out um to also approach to also fight this this war we're fighting right um on the top level um yeah it's the regulations and it's only going to get worse and you can't help but wonder whether it's being done purposefully to to push through the the ultimate goal of the cbdc which uh the the euro the digital euro apparently is going to be coming out in october i mean we'll wait and see uh but like yeah that sends shivers that's sending shares especially because gotta watch out how how how you say it because these are these are black holes right and you get into um conspiracy thingies rather quickly but manufactured consent narrative building these are open tactics that they have learned to do um declassified false flag operations are a real thing these are not conspiracy theories these are some of these things are objectively true and those are the ones i'm referring to i always refer to the the gulf of tonkin incident which which started the vietnam war um oh yes let's talk about that Because a lot of people might not know that.

Yeah, so that's just the exemplary, because it is verifiable truth.

Let's not talk about 9-11, right?

Let's talk about the thing that we can verify.

Don't just verify, right?

You can just Wikipedia right now.

The Gulf of Tonkin incident.

It is bonkers.

This started the Vietnam War.

Viet Cong ship torpedoed an American ship.

Hey, Viet Cong, don't do that.

We're now going to shoot you.

War.

And that's the war declaration.

Turns out, decades later, Viet Cong didn't shoot that American ship.

We did.

The Americans did.

And that is such a crazy thing to be true.

These are declassified documents.

And that just makes you think, right?

As a Bitcoiner, you think the fiat system, it's so broken.

what else is broken what else is fake and you start to have a very critical worldview right and then you learn things like this and if they and there's that's just one example there's many declassified false flag operations hotel bombings jesus christ many people dying so then you you have to force yourself into thinking what else are they prepared to do if they do this then what else and that's just such a scary and dangerous thought to be so distrustful of yeah your government or powerful people, organizations.

And so rotating back to CBDC regulations, I am afraid that there at this moment is not enough support for such a thing.

And then maybe something happens and then there is.

It's crazy.

That's why they do these things.

There is not enough popular support for a war in Vietnam.

Something happens and then there is.

So I'm not saying it will but these things have happened in the past.

I'm not saying between now and October there's going to be a cyber attack and everyone's going to welcome in the CBDC because that's how we can avoid the terrorists from doing something again.

But, I mean, these things happen and you have to have a critical worldview and it's scary, honestly.

So, more weirdness about that day.

More weirdness about the Gulf of Tonkin.

One of the...

Hang on a second.

Let me try and get this right.

one of the guys high up in the United States Navy during that time and held high ranks during the Vietnam War was a guy called George Stephen Morrison also father by the way of Jim Morrison who was the lead singer of the Doors and I think he was even there during like that Gulf of Tonkin incident, you're like, huh?

Can this all honestly be connected?

But the false flag events, the Lusitania, the sinking of the Lusitania during World War I, that was perpetrated to bring public opinion in the US on side to bring the US into the First World War because it was packed with US citizens.

And you learn about that and Churchill's involvement in that plot.

And yeah, this is what they do.

It's wild.

It is wild.

And 9-11 is another one.

As you say, you want to stick to the verifiable ones, but I think we're all probably on the same page.

Most people listen to this.

The monster from Jekyll Island, the Fed, the origin story of America's Central Bank.

Well, that was the third attempt at Central Bank.

There'd already been two other attempts, and one of them led by Alexander Hamilton, who was a Rothschild agent.

And it's like, oh, no, no, he wasn't.

I've seen the Broadway play.

He was a great dude.

Died in a duel, don't you know?

Like, you know, yeah, righto.

It's all of these false flags are all around us.

And yes, like you, I keep a very open eye now on what they're going to do.

How are they going to bring this in?

What catastrophe are they going to land on us that is going to absolutely, and what's kind of antithetical is like, if they lead with a cyber attack, how do they then bring in a CBDC digital currency?

Like if all of a sudden our infrastructure is questionable, or is the cyber attack that I believe will lead to digital internet ID passports?

You know, you and I can't log on to a Zoom call unless we've got some kind of digital ID to allow us into this realm of cyberspace, which we can now at the moment, you know, enter without a digital passport.

That's definitely on their agenda.

Digital ID is the ultimate wet dream for these people, you know.

Digital ID and digital money.

That's amazing.

That's everything.

so yeah be wary people when you see these headlines i mean what what happened recently in portugal and spain and france where there's just complete blackout uh you know there's many theories about what happened there uh one being a solar flare because the uh the earth's magnetic field is failing and like fuck me that's a different story jesus christ yeah let's not worry about anything else then like that but um others being yeah well it's just uh direct energy weapons being used to create fear and you're like okay the truth is we'll never know the truth and we'll only ever be told a half truth because the half truth is far more dangerous than the outright lie but we're being led to believe something or the masses are and wherever that mass kind of consensus reaches that's what they'll keep doubling down on where is the fear manifesting and where is the fear doubling tripling quadrupling because that's what they want they want the fear because then people will bend the knee and then all of a sudden you got people locked in their homes walking around with masks on their head and taking you know uh rushed through medical liquids straight into their bloodstreams that this is social engineering on crack and this is what they can do when they can control you by cutting you off of the banking system and whoever else they want to that's pure fear and indeed triggering that primordial part of the brain is your greatest driver into change if he wants to see change in a certain direction and then narratives are easily constructed media yeah these are very there's there's a lot to um explore there and and unravel the self-sovereignty is such an well i not gonna say it underrated but we are dependent on systems We are standing on the shoulders of giants and have comforts and luxuries in our lives that good times have made us and probably we're rotating into where a lot of these things have similar or common cause perhaps a certain common toxicity within the current system that's not just financial and the bad times let's hope that not too many people are going to die because i do think i'm afraid that it could get really ugly we we see that just recently when you're being cut off from electricity and or money i mean 2008 that was nothing but you get occupy wall street like that and that's nothing it's not even capital controls so these these structures that we have in place are we are not ready we are not a lot of people are not ready for fundamental shifts we have had this period of peace and so preparing self sovereignty off grid internet dependence I mean Starlink doesn't really do the trick does it?

Ham Radio it's where you want to be and this just and these are things that are even also discussed with clients some people go extremely far in this it tends to be a common thing actually even with it's our clients even if they're not Bitcoiners they always are critical thinkers and people who already going more towards living off the land, self-sovereignty, energy, being able to provide for your family, yourself, is a beautiful thing.

Not just in that regard, but also in back to basics and simplicity and beauty and a little bit of exiting the rat race.

so there's many reasons that the spirit of Bitcoin right, the self-sovereignty taking it back to the individual that power, that it's such a philosophical movement becoming to be, right you can see people like Nutz Van Holm or Breedlove there are lots of even Amus there's lots of approaches now that it's not about money Bitcoin for me it's about freedom but it touches upon so many aspects of our society and fix the money, fix the world many of these memes are so anchored in truth yeah, self-sovereignty, freedom we really have to put pressure revaluing these things.

We do.

And I urge anybody listening to go back and listen to my podcast episode with Sovereign Pete.

And if you've not listened to it yet, Rob, you should do, you'd love it.

Because you're right.

It's not just the money.

You have self-sovereign money, but do you have self-sovereign mindset?

And yeah, of course, I know everybody can't go out and, you know, I'm not in a position to yet.

I would love to have my own citadel and my cow roaming around on my estate, you know, and running water coming through it and be completely energy independent.

That's what I want to get to.

You can't click your fingers and do that overnight.

But still, if you're even buying that land and then registering that land, you don't own it.

You've just given the ownership over to the people you've registered it with.

You're now just the keeper of it.

and um he goes through all of this uh like your car you don't own your car even if you bought your car with cash from a dealer peer-to-peer you still then register it with the dvla here in the uk or um ants in france or whatever it is in belgium or wherever you are in the in the uk in the in the world excuse me it's then you've registered that ownership of that car that you just bought to them and you are just the keeper of it and you have the privilege of using it and you're like what you're like yeah this is the system right this is the the legal system in in air quotes not the lawful system but we don't know about that as bitcoiners sure we've got the money part sorted out and that's huge but now we've got to take complete so this is the you know the uh A Lloydal title, A-L-L-O-I-D-A-L, for anybody listening that wants the spelling of that word, go and look it up, but look up the meaning of it and the definition of it.

And look in a Black's Law Dictionary.

Don't just look in Wokipedia for like, what does a Lloydal title mean?

Because it would have been probably fudged a little bit.

But if you take self-custody of your Bitcoin, you own the Bitcoin.

It is yours.

It's not on the exchange anymore because when it's on the exchange, it's the exchanges.

It's now yours.

You know, it's like, the only thing I think we can truly own, to be honest, when you look at everything else, maybe a bar of gold, obviously, or a bar of silver, if you've got that, actually got it.

But otherwise your house, your possessions, you know, everything else is you know registered to somebody else with a policy number um with you know or um yeah it's and it's crazy to me that here we are discussing this at the moment everybody's screaming at each other about cat cat jpegs on the freaking blockchain which is complete insanity to me uh and uh yeah and all of all of a sudden as well you feel this shift everybody's launching a loan product like that's the next big thing and you're like wait a minute wait wait wait hang on we've been here we've done this before but yeah and and and let's just let's just think through it it's like okay you want me you want to entice me with the you know the the catchphrase of never sell your bitcoin or unleash the power of your bitcoin or whatever else you you want me to give up a loyal title of something you want me to go and like enter my multi-sig to sign a transaction to send now to somebody else's ownership i've given up a loyal title of that completely so you can give me fiat currency which is a debt discharging instrument which i'm going to have to pay you usury on to the tune of anywhere between eight to twelve percent and give up a little like that doesn't seem like a great deal because we know and over the like you know what's the term of that contract let's say it's a year well we know how much Bitcoin can go up and down in a year.

And if it goes down a significant amount, you've got to add more to it just to, you know, keep the loan to value.

It's, this is a road to ruin.

And I really, you know, I'm throwing up the red flags and it doesn't matter how influential the person is that's trying to push this idea.

I'm sure it's coming from a good place, but be wary.

do not give up something that you have true ownership over absolutely the thing that i have learned though is also alluded to in the beginning is not convincing people anymore of anything because you don't know if it's going to take three minutes or three years i've got friends who are still not in any real sense understanding the the first steps of bitcoin really i've utterly failed with some people in orange filling them um but these understandings they do come they do arrive it's a self sovereignty not keeping your keys on an exchange but as a person not even then especially not as BitSaga I mean some people they want to keep gold in an ETF Bitcoin in an ETF and then some Bitcoin in self custody you ask the question I'll answer right ledger why not ledger answer the question but convincing is a very hard thing to do and I hope that I have to think of the things that change in our minds and culture without understanding the underlying dynamics.

I have to think of the internet.

Nobody understands how the internet works.

Who can explain DNS caching?

Yet every time you send some message over the internet, that's exactly what you use, or TCP for that matter.

So I think and hope that that's what we should strive for.

is going to happen with Bitcoin, not even UTXO, maybe not that part, but a lot of the inner technical blockchain workings, spending conditions, whatever, they should not be necessary to understand, to be able to have freedom, self-custody, self-sovereignty.

But the cultural shift, the low time preference, especially that that is happening is is way more necessary i believe than many of the technical details that we opportun that we often uh tend to focus on and and that's the thing i almost get most exciting about is yeah the cultural shift more than how we do it.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, last question.

If you had one last orange pill left to give to somebody, who would you give it to and why?

The last orange pill.

Let's see.

My, yeah, my daughter.

She's now five months old.

This is actually one of the most important people in the world that I still have to orange pill.

I think we are so focused on the external world and you see these values coming back, being revalued within the Bitcoin community, family, and these things, if I within my family can have the self-sovereignty, the freedom, the peace of mind of being free from bankers and politicians, then that is sufficient for me.

Or that is not sufficient because, I mean, there's a fire.

I'm a warrior in that sense.

But that is the most important part for the loved ones in your life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

yeah i love it mate well done and congratulations to you and your wife and well it's nice to know that there's another another little bitcoiner gonna grow up native to bitcoin uh you know imagine her life in 15 years from now when she does fully understand it and wow the world will be we both hope a a much better brighter happier more positive place because of you know the actions that you're taking to help educate people and fix the money and fix the world.

So thank you so much for coming on, mate.

It's been great to get to know you and I look forward to, well, will we meet you?

Are you going to be at any of the conferences?

Where can people reach out if they want to learn more?

Of course, definitely Bitcoin Amsterdam, probably Bitcoin Prague.

but contact is bitsaga.be and of course also x at bitsaga.rob those are the main bitcoin channels excellent I'll put that in the show notes and nothing left we said mate appreciate it yeah thanks for having me Daniel this was a great chat thanks thank you so much Well guys I hope you enjoyed that one And I hope you thinking deeper again about your setup Those of you that need to think the hardest are those of you that do not have self-custody of your Bitcoin.

That's step number one.

All right.

Don't get too head up and run around with your head on fire.

Like, oh, my God, I've done it all wrong.

like everything is fine just please start making sure you take this more seriously and get self-custody of your bitcoin and for those of you that are sitting around here thinking holy fuck it's all on a ledger you've got some deep thoughts to honestly go through i would set up that call with rob i mean it's a 30 minute free call why wouldn't you do that and uh and And then for others that, you know, if you're losing any kind of sleep about your setup, just jump on the call.

Just have a chat.

You know, I'm not shilling here.

And it doesn't have to be with Rob.

It could be with a trusted other Bitcoiner that you've got to meet.

And if you haven't met any Bitcoiners, what are you doing?

Get to one of the conferences.

We've got BTC Prague coming up.

I am shilling now.

BTC Prague.

Use the code BITTON.

Get 10% off.

Pay with Bitcoin, get another 5% off.

It's coming up.

This is FOMO time now.

The conference starts in earnest on Thursday.

That's industry day.

But there's a full lineup of speakers and loads of other fun as well.

And it's the best time to be in the expo because you can walk around the expo, get to know all of the different companies that are showing.

Like I said at the beginning, Bitbox are going to be there.

So if you want to start self-custodying your Bitcoin, now's the time to get to a conference get to the booth go and have the full rundown by the people generally douglas is there he's the ceo of the company you can't imagine imagine in fiat land where you went to a trad fi fiat conference and you stood there and spoke to the ceo of barclays bank where you hold your checking account but that shit doesn't happen in fiat land It happens in Bitcoin land.

You just got to put yourself in those situations.

And if you're not, you're missing it.

Like the opportunity cost of not going to these conferences is huge, but please choose wisely.

Bitcoin only conferences, okay?

Disclaimer Bitcoin only conferences and BTC Prague is one of those If you go to one of the other conferences where they got shitcoiners roaming around the place singing their little siren song of you know invest in my NFT or in my cat JPEG monkey fucking file bullshit you're gonna get confused.

So it's got to be Bitcoin only events and get to a Bitcoin only meetup.

Find your local meetup.

That's as simple is downloading and paying for yes you have to pay for an orange pill app membership it's not free because if it was free it'd be flooded full of the crypto bros they're gonna try and sell you absolutely anything it's bitcoin only so orange pill app again the link is in the show notes you download that app and you start connecting with bitcoiners around you you find out where your local meetup is and if there isn't one start one damn it just begin one and it might just be you that turns up for the first few.

But then slowly but surely, more people will find you.

And you can find all the conferences on there as well and just connect whenever you're traveling.

It's so great to use when you're traveling.

You get to a new place, the Open Orange Pill app, and you find there's a bunch of Bitcoiners around within like 5, 10, 20 miles.

It's like, okay, hey, where's the best pub?

Where's the best cafe?

Where's the best pizza place?

Where's the best steak place?

You know, whatever it is you want.

And before you know it, you're meeting these people and they're showing you around and you're treated like a long lost cousin that's come out of nowhere to come.

It's unbelievable experience.

Orange pill app, get across there.

Swan Bitcoin, like I said, in the States, you can stack with those guys.

Relay over here in Europe, across Europe, R-E-L-A-I.ch forward slash bitten.

Download the app.

Make sure you store your words safely.

Nowhere on your phone.

Just make sure you store them, write them down because the wallet is built into the app at Relay.

and have Relay Private as well where you can tap into their services.

That's a white glove service if you've got a large amount of fiat that you want to exchange to Bitcoin or you want to take your business onto a Bitcoin standard.

Relay is the place for you.

Bitbox, like I said at the beginning and just here as well, bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten.

Save 5% with that code bitten.

Get over to plebeian.market.

Check out what you can buy with your sats.

Go find my book if you're so inclined.

I'll be signing copies at BTC Prague and you can find it at Bitcoin book.shop and use the code BITTON to buy my book and any others on there as well and get yourself a 10% discount.

And yeah, don't forget to check out Bubble.

Like I said at the beginning this is a really interesting interesting project The way I see it I just going to talk off the cuff a little bit i out of music but that always happens when i get a new shout out uh i have to find a new rhythm and i've been completely knocked out my stride so i've got kaz he's one of the founders of of bubble uh lined up to drop an interview with him and he's he's going to go through the whole thing But imagine you're listening to 40 hours of podcasts per week because you're an absolute psychopath and you're on 2x speed.

But there's one particular subject that you want to dive into.

You want to get much better knowledge.

And it could be anything, right?

It could be the opera turn debate right now.

It could be mining in general.

It could be Austrian economics.

It could be whatever.

And you just want to find that specific content.

But you don't want to sit through the rabbit hole story, the back story.

you just want the meat and potatoes.

You can start going to bubble.fm forward slash join.

And what they're doing is they're building out a search engine, which is called Aura, A-U-R-A.

And you'll be able to put in specific things that you want to listen to.

It's going to scan all the Bitcoin podcasts and download them for you.

And you could have a three and a half minute clip of somebody talking about that particular topic on Stefan's show or on my show or on Peter's show or on Breedlove's show or Marty's show or on Odell's show or on VK's show like whoever you know Bram or Robin they whoever is talking about that specific topic is going to get bundled up for you and you might end up with 45 minute or an hour long podcast episode made up of all those clips going deep into the relevant points now I know I've rambled but you know it's still making my head spin like it's going to be it could unlock so much greatness and get everybody's education really honed honed on a subject far quicker than you'd ever been able to before so go check it out that's all you can do bubble b-u-b-b-l dot f-m forward slash join and like I say, link is in the show notes and check out paywithflash.com as well whilst you are hanging around.

Anyway, I've rambled, I've blabbered.

I'm going to BTC Prague.

I hope to find you guys there.

Come and say hi.

I will be spending time on the Bitcoin Infinity booth because Canute and Luke have been kind enough to offer me some space there to be signing my books, Choose Life.

And I just love hanging out with those guys anyway.

So come say hi.

Looking forward to it.

Take care.

Stack safe.

Catch you on the next show.