[SPEAKER_01]: neurodivergence can be understood as both maladaption and what I was talking about before rebellion, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: A rebellion against environments designed to keep us compliant, industrialized, disconnected from our true selves.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's positive, powerful, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Mind Change podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: On your host, Heather McKeen, Speaker and author of the best-seller Mind Change, and creator of the Mind Change method.

[SPEAKER_01]: Out of the ashes of my own healing journey, I became an armchair expert in the Mind Body Connection and the neurobiology of trauma.

[SPEAKER_01]: Using the methods we will discuss on this podcast, we have helped countless people transform issues that previously seemed impossible to overcome.

[SPEAKER_01]: Each week, we'll dive deep into strategies, insights, and success stories that will inspire and equip you to harness the power of your mind body and spirit in order to create the life of your dreams.

[SPEAKER_01]: Together, we are changing the world one mind at a time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the MindChange podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Heather McKeen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Before we jump into today's episode, please take a moment to like, subscribe, share, comment, and if you're on YouTube, hit that little bell there to make sure that you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Something unprecedented is happening in human history.

[SPEAKER_01]: Our child's brains and bodies are changing so much faster than science can explain.

[SPEAKER_01]: Over the past 50 years, autism has gone from being considered rare about 1 in 5,000 children, to now affecting roughly 1 in 31 eight-year-olds.

[SPEAKER_01]: autism and neurodivergence are skyrocketing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Today's episode might feel uncomfortable.

[SPEAKER_01]: It might challenge what you've believed or you've been told about autism and neurodivergence.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's an episode I felt like we needed to have because the numbers don't lie and what we've been trained to normalize is anything but normal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Think about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: A study in the UK noted that there has been a 787 percent exponential increase in recorded incidents of autism diagnosis between 1998 and 2018.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's just 20 years.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is going to blow your mind because it did mine.

[SPEAKER_01]: In 1963, that's only 62 years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: The autism rates were 0.01 to 0.05%.

[SPEAKER_01]: So on average, one out of every 3,333 children.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the rates are 1 in 31.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is a 10,670% increase.

[SPEAKER_01]: This isn't a trickle, this isn't avalanche.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it has happened in just two generations.

[SPEAKER_01]: One or two childhoods go.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, we've been trained to shrug, to call this progress, to say that it's just better diagnosis, it's more awareness.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kids have always been this sick.

[SPEAKER_01]: We just didn't notice.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are we supposed to believe that entire classrooms once quietly contained multiple autistic asmatic, allergic, and depressed kids?

[SPEAKER_01]: But nobody saw that we've been conditioned by institutions in media and the medical establishment to normalize the abnormal, to call sickness health, [SPEAKER_01]: But genes don't change that fast.

[SPEAKER_01]: The human genome is ancient.

[SPEAKER_01]: The environment, physical, emotional, and cultural has changed at a breakneck speed.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we're doing this episode because the explosion in autism and neurodivergence isn't just about awareness.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's about our minds and bodies, how they're adapting and sometimes maladapting in a hostile system designed to keep us compliant, industrialized and disempowered.

[SPEAKER_01]: This isn't just about autism.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's about what's happening to all of us.

[SPEAKER_01]: And unless we start asking better questions, we'll keep mistaking rebellion for disorder and systemic breakdown for personal failure.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, back to help break all of this down, is my co-host today co-founder of MindChange Camp McKeen.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, welcome back.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, it's going to be back.

[SPEAKER_02]: Glad to be doing this.

[SPEAKER_02]: This topic specifically has been asked about numerous times, whether it's online, whether it's people sending in a message, or an email, or whatever else, or even with consults, and just talking with people in general, [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of things, especially with my change, can my change help, can my change, can you work with my change and if someone's on the on the spectrum or this and that so there's been a lot of a lot of questions so I'm glad that we're doing that and even more recently I actually just had a console this week where someone at the end of the console was like hey so I might be on the spectrum can and so there's I mean the people are asking adults that are maybe more recently diagnosed.

[SPEAKER_02]: often are asking like, okay, so what about this?

[SPEAKER_02]: And they're wanting some some perspective.

[SPEAKER_02]: It really has been, as you said, with all of the stats and explosion, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: This explosion of not only the data in the stats, but the amount of diagnoses, the amount of people that are coming into life, or in any situation with like, okay, this is now the problem.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is the issue, this is the diagnosis.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have some questions for you on this, and I'm going to have a number of questions as we go through it, but there's a lot of people that would say, and would argue, and I'm not arguing one of the other right now, but I do wonder what you think.

[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people would say this, what we could call an explosion of diagnoses or understanding or [SPEAKER_02]: Inclusion or whatever it is is progress like this explosion of like oh my goodness now.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're recognizing what's really going on here So some people would say yeah, that's that's progress like we're doing better as a society to perhaps normalize it I mean even in media and movies like there's always something there even if it's like a historic [SPEAKER_02]: thing, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so some people would say that it's not really an explosion, but this maybe this noticing of autism is the newness, but it's actually always been there, like whether it's anyone on the spectrum or anyone that's neurodivergent, it's always been there.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're just now more capable of recognizing it, of assessing it, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people [SPEAKER_02]: And now because of that, there are a few where kids that are slipping through the cracks.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess that would mean that a lot of kids were slipping through the cracks before like thousands of percentage of kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure, but the question is like, yes, the numbers are higher.

[SPEAKER_02]: But is it simply because teachers and pediatricians and other people are more trained to spot these things, to understand these things, to notice?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's the official story, but the problem with that is that the evidence doesn't add up really for really looking at the numbers.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I want to say we're not in [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, there is good about expanding beyond what we might call neuro-typical.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think that what we are now referring to as neuro-typical has actually never been neuro-typical.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think what we're talking about is fitting into the children who are the byproduct of the Industrial Revolution.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that that's what we're sort of misinterpreting as neuro-typical.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there is a part of this more conversation around neurodivergence that I'm all for that something that's why I called it rebellion.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're rebellion.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think you were meant to be rebelling against this sort of industrialized culture.

[SPEAKER_02]: It has you a question with that just to clarify.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what I'm hearing you say is that this idea of neurotypical we're moving more and more away from what would have been considered neurotypical from the industrial revolution of like everyone sort of conforming to sit this way, be this way, act this way, whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: And over time, as we as society move further and further [SPEAKER_02]: that ideal, or that old ideal, that people who are still in maybe some of these formal settings, it's more obvious because they're not, they're not typical and like I'm just going to sit so I'm just going to do this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to learn this way.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to act this way, be this way, speak this way.

[SPEAKER_02]: So then we might call it something that's in early divergent, but maybe as a society we're expanding as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we should be, I hope we are.

[SPEAKER_01]: The unfortunate thing is I think we mostly listen to sickness.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's funny that the rebellion's taking the model of physical sickness, the way that an emotional and mental sickness, the way that, I mean, that's fitting the rebellion into the industrialized world that we live in.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what I kind of want to get away from or question.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're not, what I do want to say is this isn't the authority.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're not trying to be the authority on autism and neurodivergence, definitely not.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like to ask questions.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like to find out if we're having a problem how did we get here and if there's something speaking up, what are we maybe not listening to?

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the approach I want to take.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that to clarify when I'm talking about [SPEAKER_01]: autism.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm more, I'm less talking about this spectrum than I am, what we might call a disability, because the fact of the matter is people are struggling.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's pain and it's struggle and it's disability for some, okay?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I want to talk about is, okay, those people in that situation, what are we, how did we get here?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because again, we look at the numbers, something huge is happening.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so where I'm all for expanding the version of normal and typical, [SPEAKER_01]: just doing that and not looking at the avalanche and explosion of pain and suffering that we're seeing especially on children.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to lose something in the conversation.

[SPEAKER_02]: When you say pain is suffering on children, how?

[SPEAKER_01]: that these children who are being diagnosed with autistic sometimes incredibly debilitating.

[SPEAKER_01]: They will never have any sort of normal function, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, we can take issue with normal if we want to.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd rather take issue with the pain and the suffering.

[SPEAKER_01]: and say, okay, could there be contributing factors?

[SPEAKER_01]: Could we go up river of this?

[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe start finding out to quote, I think it's a Desmond 2, too, a little bit of, like, let's, if we keep seeing people floating down the river, dead bodies that, let's go and find out where they're falling in, rather than just dealing with like dead body disposal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe a gory graphic analogy there, but that's kind of why I think let's let's just open a conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know we've worked with and we'll talk about this later, we've worked with people on the spectrum people who see, or maybe coming in, maybe they're not wanting to work on autism, they are autistic and wondering how that approaches, how we approach that, but we have had people coming in wanting to deal with autism.

[SPEAKER_01]: a disability of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't necessarily see it as like this this thing that's going to hinder them in this area in this area, it's more like how do we work with that, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But then also like once they, well, we'll get into all of this, but like yes, yeah, how how we deal with that and the reason we deal with things in a certain way is going to be unveiled.

[SPEAKER_01]: And listen, when I started researching this, I was like, wait, what?

[SPEAKER_01]: I maybe lean a little bit toward conspiracy.

[SPEAKER_01]: But these numbers are there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I can't believe we're not hearing this full story out there.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that to me says there's something going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is some way that we are not looking at this in the way that we're supposed to if we want to make real change.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for me, I was like to look at the numbers.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's look at the numbers.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, very important.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of this information that I'm about to speak on comes from the National Council on severe autism.

[SPEAKER_01]: So really important to know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am not making this stuff up.

[SPEAKER_01]: This stuff is well researched.

[SPEAKER_01]: As always, I'm going down and doing a lot of work and a lot of research before I speak on a topic.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it's important that we link that in the show notes.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's many other places that I've looked in people that I've talked to.

[SPEAKER_01]: So anything I will either reference or we'll link it in the show notes, but for sure, I want to link the national council on severe autism because they have an enormous amount of compiled research.

[SPEAKER_01]: So just to get back into the numbers, I already mentioned this before, but I think it's worth repeating.

[SPEAKER_01]: Back in the 1950s and 60s, autism prevalence was 0.1 to 0.5%.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's like 1 in 10,000 children.

[SPEAKER_01]: And today, depending on which study, it's about 1 in 30 children.

[SPEAKER_01]: So.

[SPEAKER_01]: When we're looking at numbers and diagnoses, these are unfathomable numbers, we do not see things like this, especially when the story out there is that this is genetics.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's that math doesn't math.

[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't add up at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I found these numbers to be really interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: So California, their department of developmental services, they have the longest running data set in the US as far as, well, a lot of stuff goes, but for sure for autism.

[SPEAKER_01]: and their autism case load has grown nearly 6,000 percent since the late 1980s.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's even after they tightened eligibility in 2003 to try and slow the surge.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is not diagnostic inflation.

[SPEAKER_01]: These are kids, real kids, real parents, real families out there, [SPEAKER_01]: And so if we get into the whole awareness argument, like, oh, the reason we're seeing so much is because of awareness.

[SPEAKER_01]: That asks us to believe that four decades professionals.

[SPEAKER_01]: somehow overlooked, one to two percent of children with disabling autism, just overlook them, not just quirky kids, but children with profound communication, social, and functional differences.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's simply not credible.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let me start at kind of like the beginning here as far as numbers go.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a gentleman named Leo Caner.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was a child psychiatrist at Johns Hopkins in the 1940s.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's the one credited with the first real description of autism as a distinct condition.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in 1943, he published a paper describing just 11 children who showed a pattern of profound social withdrawal, unusual use of language and kind of the repetitive behaviors.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now at the time, he called that early infantile autism.

[SPEAKER_01]: Here's why that's important.

[SPEAKER_01]: Canner said that these cases were markedly and uniquely different than anything they had ever seen or had been reported so far.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in other words, this is new.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, if Autism has actually been affecting one to two percent of children back then, [SPEAKER_01]: and like, is not new as we're being told that it does now, then canner and every child's psychiatrist in every country would have been tripping over hundreds of cases.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's not the case.

[SPEAKER_01]: They weren't.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that was why his paper was so groundbreaking.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's because he found something [SPEAKER_01]: But if you've asked words today, 1 in 30 children, that's normal.

[SPEAKER_01]: That would be normalized if it was one in 30 children.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's something that's not rare at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's common.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like one in every classroom.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, if that same rate had existed in the 1940s, schools, hospitals, families, they would have been overflowing with autistic kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yet, there is no official record of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: not in census data, not in institutions, not in the training of psychiatrists, teachers, or pediatricians.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, autism barely made a blip in the literature for decades after, canner's paper.

[SPEAKER_01]: So listen, that makes it really hard to argue that it's always been there in these kind of numbers, but we just didn't notice, or the criteria has changed.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the truth is, something has changed dramatically.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're looking at credible research, it shows that they're began to be this meteoric rise in the late 1980s.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we can see this in institutions too.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we're taking it from, there's no recorded data in the pediatrician's office in the classrooms and child psychologists.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing to prove what we're being told now.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's look at it from another angle.

[SPEAKER_01]: In 1964, California had about reported about 13,000 people with developmental disabilities in state institutions.

[SPEAKER_01]: Autism was just this tiny little sliver of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Today, that same system tracks merely 200,000 autism cases alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's, I don't know the math there, but that's like, what, triple almost the amount of just cases in general and now there's 200,000 autism cases alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if that prevalence had always been two to three percent, then we would see tens of thousands of elderly autistic adults in care.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we don't.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're not in the census.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're not in the hospitals.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're not in the nursing homes.

[SPEAKER_01]: They simply don't exist in those numbers.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what we're seeing, and this is so important.

[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm about to say, what we're seeing with the data we're given now is that people are going back in their rewriting history from our current narrative.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, and we're hearing it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is [SPEAKER_01]: medical institutions and and are the way that we're being told about this from a cultural society point of view, but this is happening even on the most basic level, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's say if old Uncle Eddie was a little bit off, we now say, oh, he was probably autistic.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if my grandfather somehow didn't show a lot of emotion, now I'm in a look back and say, [SPEAKER_01]: people are doing this, but they're not realizing how damaging it actually is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so this is a phenomenon.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's usually called historical revisionism or presentationism.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's, I feel like this is what's majorly happening with this autism narrative that we're seeing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but like why?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like why would people revise history as if that's never happened in the world?

[SPEAKER_02]: have its states or anywhere else in the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: But why would we revise history on this kind of thing?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, why would people use presentism and go forth when it comes to autism specifically?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a great question.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that it's because it serves certain needs or functions, [SPEAKER_01]: oftentimes unconsciously, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's just go into the some of the basic reasons that people kind of unconsciously use this presentation.

[SPEAKER_01]: So oftentimes it's because there's we're looking for moral clarity or identity.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doing this really helps people draw sharp lines between like what's right and wrong by reinforcing current values or by condemning pastoens.

[SPEAKER_01]: We see this happening all around us all the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Another reason people typically do this is that it legitimizes social change, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: If we cast the past as backward, old school, not effective, then it allows us to sort of highlight how enlightened and brilliant and more informed the present is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we do that because it strengthens support for our current beliefs and our current movements.

[SPEAKER_01]: Another thing is it just simplifies history.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's easier to apply today's frameworks than it is to understand past people in their own context.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's less nuance, but it's more accessible.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and another thing is, and we see this, and this is very, very common, it's political or ideological use, right, leaders, educators, the science community, the medical community, activists that use this presentism or historical revisionism as a way to strategically [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, what we're doing without realizing it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we're just jumping on board because I think the powers that be are doing this.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're doing this historical revisionism with the numbers.

[SPEAKER_01]: The numbers don't add up if you're really looking.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so because this is happening all around us, we're doing it too now, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's being used.

[SPEAKER_01]: Presidentism is being used to dismiss the unfathomable increase in autism rates.

[SPEAKER_01]: But here's the truth, even profound autism, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: The most disabling kind has doubled in prevalence in just in the last two decades alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: That cannot, which dissimplify it down to the last 20 years, that can't be explained by diagnostic broadening.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't discover profoundly disabled kids after the fact, [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, diagnostic shifts and awareness can play a role in some of the increase in number that we're seeing, but in no way explains the exponential global surge that we're seeing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the data is overwhelming.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is true increase, not just a new label.

[SPEAKER_01]: And science is seeming refusal to acknowledge that, uh, maybe insisting that it's all semantics.

[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, that's a kind of denial that protects the system.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is not protecting our kids, it's not protecting our families, it's not protecting us.

[SPEAKER_01]: The explanation sounds neat, but it doesn't hold up when you zoom out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because here's the truth, it's not just autism.

[SPEAKER_01]: Childhood illness across the board has exploded in the last 50 years.

[SPEAKER_01]: asthma has more than doubled.

[SPEAKER_01]: Type 1 diabetes is climbing 2 to 5% every year.

[SPEAKER_01]: Food allergies that once were super rare are now so common that we have to redesign lunchrooms.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anxiety and depression in kids are at his store at highs.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what we're just going to say that all of that is just because [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's clear, not just with, as you said, not just with autism, but with a number of things.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's clear that the increase is real.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, increase in diagnosis, increase in what we're seeing, increase in what's around.

[SPEAKER_02]: But if it's not just better awareness, as you're talking about, and if it's not just that kids were like, no hair mislabeled for decades and decades and decades or, you know, however long, it begs the question of like what actually changed.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's the question, why are we suddenly seeing this surge?

[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously in the last, you know, 20 years especially, [SPEAKER_01]: Really, that's the heart of it, that's the heart of this question, because if genes don't change that fast, and they don't, then we have to look at the environment.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't just mean chemicals or pollution or the fact that we don't eat real food.

[SPEAKER_02]: Which, you know, all those things are true and real, yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and they matter.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean the entire ecosystem that our children are born into, physical, emotional, cultural, all of these things have happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: at a huge and unprecedented rate as well, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So kids physically are hit with unprecedented toxic loads, plastics, pesticides, andocrine disruptors.

[SPEAKER_01]: This, like I said, the ultra-processed food, sleep, disrupted sleep, screen time, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Really big thing is that their microbiomes are different than any [SPEAKER_01]: But all of that stuff is a factor.

[SPEAKER_01]: All of that is a factor.

[SPEAKER_01]: So please hear me say, this stuff needs to be looked at, re-evaluated, figured out, it is contributing, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: But I would say maybe even more, what is under our control right now is that emotionally, families are under chronic stress.

[SPEAKER_01]: parents are disregulated, communities are fragmented, attachments, disorders are rampant because of the pace that we're asked to live by and the pressure that we have on ourselves as parents, as people, as humans.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Culturally, we've industrialized, not just schools but childhood.

[SPEAKER_01]: Schools demand compliance, multitasking, standardized performance, non-stop evaluation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: There's less structured play if there's play at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's little to no nature.

[SPEAKER_01]: almost zero nature.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's less space for nervous systems to find balance.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, let's not even get started on the fact that children regulate to a regulated adult or co-regulate.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, are we creating environments where teachers are regulated?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a whole conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: And when you put all that together, the thing is that children's brains are gonna adapt.

[SPEAKER_01]: We do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: We wire force survival in our environment.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think children now are wiring to chaos.

[SPEAKER_01]: That wiring shows up as autism.

[SPEAKER_01]: ADHD anxiety depression.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're not random defects.

[SPEAKER_01]: they are mal-adaptive adaptations.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are the brains subconscious way of saying, I cannot thrive in this environment, but I will survive, however I can.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I hear what you're saying about the environment and how there's a real, there can be a real threat there depending on what we're doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: and where we are and what we're living in, but something that the audience or people might be struggling with in general is like everything around autism, are you calling this a choice?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because obviously kids don't choose autism, adults, parents, you know, they're choosing ADHD.

[SPEAKER_02]: So these aren't [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Such an important question.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad you bring it up and it's really important.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think for people to hear us say this, it is not a conscious choice.

[SPEAKER_01]: no child is developing in the womb choosing to be maladaptive or wakes up one day at age three and thinks, you know what, I think I'm going to become autistic today.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, no, that's not what we're saying is happening.

[SPEAKER_01]: What I mean is that the subconscious and the body are making choices all the time about how to wire, how to cope, how to survive in any given environment.

[SPEAKER_01]: They [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually good that they do that, it's imperative that they do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: They need to take stock of the environment and adapt to it or they will die.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, think of it like epigenetics.

[SPEAKER_01]: Jeans are the blueprint, but the environment decides which switches get flipped on and off, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: The nervous system is constantly calculating how do I adapt to this?

[SPEAKER_01]: How do I make sense of this?

[SPEAKER_01]: How do I survive in this?

[SPEAKER_01]: How do I get my needs met in this?

[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes that adaption is creative, is superpower, is something that I think we all have the ability to do in good situations, not necessarily just in negative ones, for instance, hyperfocus, something that is often associated with autism, hyperfocus, deep pattern recognition, a withdrawal from overwhelming social chaos.

[SPEAKER_01]: as long as they're not coupled up against them being debilitating of us having a choice.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing missing, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: See, over time, there is no choice because they become survival strategies.

[SPEAKER_01]: And those become rigid, maladaptive, and then disabling.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when I say choice, I mean the subconscious choice of the system, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: The brain says I cannot comply with a world that feels unsafe, I'm predictable, hostile.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I will wire myself differently to survive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even if it costs me flexibility or health or belonging or normality, [SPEAKER_01]: In that sense, autism and neurodivergence can be understood as both maladaption and what I was talking about before, rebellion.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: A rebellion against environments designed to keep us compliant, industrialized, disconnected from our true selves.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's positive, powerful, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's good.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't make it any less real, but it does change how we interpret the explosion that we're seeing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'm gonna hold you for just a minute because, [SPEAKER_02]: You've used a number of words here that, you know, I think some people in the audience may be hearing and feeling it might be dangerous.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you're using these words of maladaptive or rebellious in conjunction with autism.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it would seem, I guess my question is, does that are you sort of like minimalizing the reality of autism as a disability, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because this is something that is very real.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in one sense, it could even feel to the audience like you're disrespecting people who identify [SPEAKER_02]: probably as neurodivergent or like, you know, not having a negative connotation when they talk about themselves in this way.

[SPEAKER_02]: So just want to kind of clarify something.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm so glad.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's why we're having this conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's such an important distinction and let me be really clear.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am not saying that autism isn't real.

[SPEAKER_01]: or that it isn't for some people, profoundly disabling or painful for many families.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or that we should see it as a negative thing, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not dismissing lived experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: What I would like to possibly have a conversation about or maybe challenge is the story that we've been told about what it is and why it's rising.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, when I use the word maladaptive, I mean exactly that, an adaptation that helps in one way, but causes struggle in another.

[SPEAKER_01]: When I say maladaption, that's what I mean.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying someone's a, what's another, like a, [SPEAKER_01]: Mutant, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, no.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's a dis, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: We're not talking about a mutant phenomenon here, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, it's actually, this is our, this is a superpower we have as a human being.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the nervous system trying to solve an impossible problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: How do I exist in an environment that overwhelms me?

[SPEAKER_01]: And that adaptation, which is a survival mechanism, comes with trade-offs.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think the word we are looking for is we're not saying it's like a defect to the human or to the person.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not a defect.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's good reason for this to be happening.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's our mindset with everything with my change, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: When I use the word rebellious, I don't mean [SPEAKER_01]: oppositional, like in a moral sense, right, of being or rebel.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, in a biological, and maybe even spiritual sense, the skyrocketing rates of autism and other neurodivergences.

[SPEAKER_01]: What if they're a collective mirror?

[SPEAKER_01]: What if they're showing us that the environments that we've created, normalized, chemically, emotionally, culturally, they're actually hostile to human thriving?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what if the rebellion is the body and the brain saying, I will not.

[SPEAKER_01]: I cannot comply with this system, like without they're being cost.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think the danger isn't in questioning the narrative.

[SPEAKER_01]: The danger is in pretending this explosion is normal.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if we just seek to simply reframe autism as a fixed identity or as a genetic inevitability, and we stop asking why so many children are struggling [SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's not empowerment, that's resignation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and something that I think is really important for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think in mind change in general is this desire for continually growing, evolving, changing, for the better, like helping the world continue to change and grow and become, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And if we sort of just accept things or like we want to push forward and help people [SPEAKER_02]: get better.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, but if we are being told that somehow this is getting better, that we're doing better by having this massive explosion of neurodivergence and all of these different things and start catering to it rather than, and again, I'm not saying that we shouldn't support [SPEAKER_01]: the, it's unfortunately hundreds of thousands of people that are in this state, not at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying that, I'm all for that inclusion and thinking more about this stuff and exploring this and I would love to start to see neurodivergences like a superpower, but there are people suffering.

[SPEAKER_01]: horribly tragically suffering that what if they don't have to, what if we could listen and grow and expand and change and get all the good rebellious things against the toxins and the chemicals and the systems of food systems and everything like that in pharmaceuticals, but not have to [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I think we've got a great that there's been an undeniable negative impact from, and we've said it again, the toxins, the chemicals, the food systems, pharmaceutical use, like a lot of different things there, but I would like to get into the mind-change perspective, the mind-change approach with all of this.

[SPEAKER_02]: And always emphasize, you know, what you do is you emphasize the subconscious.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so how does that fit?

[SPEAKER_02]: And how does the subconscious, how does mind change fit into what's happening at the trauma and programming level that could explain, again, going back to this rise?

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, because when we talk about environment, we can't stop at like our physical environment, just like the plastics and the pesticides, the pharmaceuticals, pharmaceuticals.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yes, they're a major problem and they need to be addressed.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the deepest environment that we all grow up in is the emotional field of our families in our culture.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, here's what I mean.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, every parent carries unresolved experiences, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Fear, anxiety, perfectionism, disconnection, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Those live in the subconscious mind and the nervous system.

[SPEAKER_01]: we were not taught how to process this, this isn't being modeled.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was a huge shift in culture when we become industrialized that's keeping us away from nature, keeping us away from our ancestors, keeping us away from movement, physical things that were, without people who've been realizing it, we're dis, you know, like managing trauma.

[SPEAKER_01]: in ways people didn't fully understand.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like we used to live normally, now we're living at normally.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what has happened is we've gotten this, we've all transgotten bottlenecked in one sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not being released.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's being stored.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we've got all of these other environmental factors coming at the same time.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like poison from the outside, poison from the inside.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that's what we are talking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: So our parents hold on to these things because they're in these last few generations that are not as naturally releasing trauma as we used to.

[SPEAKER_01]: And listen, those patterns don't go away.

[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, time does not heal all wounds.

[SPEAKER_01]: They shape how we attach to our own children.

[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I'll say, time often passes down.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: We learn how to do them better and get them more deeply engraved.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's very real for us how very real we feel safe or unsafe.

[SPEAKER_01]: even that the chemistry level in pregnancy itself gets passed down.

[SPEAKER_01]: So a stress or traumatized parent passes down, stress hormones, epigenetic markers, attachment cues, to the child before the child, first of all, before the child even comes Earthside.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then, secondarily, once they're outside, then it's before they're, when they're preverbal, they are being, they're downloading enormous amounts of nervous system feedback, tons that's wiring them at such young ages.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, many of the kids now labeled autistic or ADHD are actually showing us the overflow [SPEAKER_01]: like their little systems are being wired, to environments that are unsafe from the very beginning, not because their parents don't love them, but because their parents subconscious minds are still running survival programs.

[SPEAKER_01]: And when a baby or child feels unsafe long enough, [SPEAKER_01]: don't connect too much.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't relax too much.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't trust too much.

[SPEAKER_01]: And very frequently that protective wiring looks like withdrawal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hyperfocus repetitive behaviors or difficulty with social, like [SPEAKER_01]: environments, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So I look at these undeniable numbers, these skyrocketing rates.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't just see a medical crisis, I see a generational trauma crisis.

[SPEAKER_01]: These kids are like the canary in the coal mine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Their minds and bodies are rebelling against environments that [SPEAKER_01]: And if we don't address the root of that, we're just going to keep treating the symptoms.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're just going to create a society and a culture that normalizes dysfunction and maladaption.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then the real epidemic goes untouched, and talked about unnoticed.

[SPEAKER_02]: OK, so, and you play devil's advocate here for a moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: Go for it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Trauma is you're talking about trauma and how it's stored and how we're suppressing it, and it's just passed on and all these things.

[SPEAKER_02]: Trauma feels like a really broad explanation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, maybe 20 years ago, or 25 years ago, it wouldn't have felt like a broad explanation, but everyone uses the word trauma now.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, [SPEAKER_02]: We know that autism is a neurological condition.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can literally see differences in the brain, so between someone that would be deemed as autistic, and someone who would be deemed as not autistic.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's clear differences in the brain there.

[SPEAKER_02]: So my question for you is, isn't it a little bit of a stretch [SPEAKER_02]: explains those neurological biological differences.

[SPEAKER_00]: Such a good question.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of, honestly, the biggest misunderstandings in the conversations that we hear about trauma.

[SPEAKER_01]: People assume even medical professionals, even psychiatrists.

[SPEAKER_01]: feel that trauma is a feeling, or an emotional memory, but what people need to understand is trauma is a biological event, when an experience overwhelms us.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we don't resolve it.

[SPEAKER_01]: The mind and body store it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Stress hormones stay elevated.

[SPEAKER_01]: Immunous responses shift, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Nural pathways get locked into survival mode.

[SPEAKER_01]: So over time, unresolved trauma doesn't just live as a story in the mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: It begins to reshape our actual physiology.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: But genetics shows this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Clearly, stress doesn't just affect the person who experiences it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It alters which genes get switched on and off.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then those changes can be passed the next generation.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've talked about this numerous times.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of people out there right now trying to like debunk epigenetics.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's just too much, [SPEAKER_01]: study, like too much has already been done to show the connections, I mean, studies show that grandchildren of Holocaust survivors carry epigenetic markers of trauma.

[SPEAKER_01]: Babies born to mothers with high cortisol and pregnancy often have heightened stress reactivity themselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when I say trauma, [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm talking about pregnancy environments where stress chemistry literally rewires the developing brain, attachment environments where an infants nervous system is tuning into parents' unresolved fear, rage, or like numbness, dissociation.

[SPEAKER_01]: like generational environments where epigenetic flags from grandma's trauma are still influencing a child neurodevelopment today.

[SPEAKER_01]: So listen, if you put that all together with modern toxins, food systems, cultural disconnection, [SPEAKER_01]: And you like put that all together in the blender that we have currently in our environment in our culture, you get an neurological epidemic.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is your right.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's neurological.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can see it.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can see it under MRI.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can look at these things and see that the brain has been affected.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not random.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the logical outcome of unresolved trauma layered onto an already hostile environment.

[SPEAKER_01]: So no, it's, I don't think it's [SPEAKER_01]: trauma is the missing link.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the bridge and trauma the way that we talk about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not talking about go to talk therapy and get this all worked out.

[SPEAKER_01]: There needs to be subconscious rewiring of the way the subconscious was wired maladaptively in the first place.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that this is the bridge between experience environment and biology.

[SPEAKER_01]: And to me, that's why the autism explosion makes sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: When you stop looking for a single gene, and you start looking at humans as a whole mind-body system, I feel like we get answers, real answers that match the numbers.

[SPEAKER_02]: So another thing that I hear a lot in terms of all that you're talking about is people people say these kind of labels, right, or they use these kind of labels, whether it's autistic, ADHD, neurodivergent, and sometimes when people are using those labels, like [SPEAKER_02]: And for a large number of people, it's almost like they've finally been able to language or have language or identity for who they feel that they are or what's happening in their life.

[SPEAKER_02]: The reasons why they think the way they do or act the way they do or whatever it is.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so often times people who use these labels can feel community and identity and even like pride, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so isn't that, wouldn't you say that that is a good thing if they're feeling the empowerment and the pride around like, Oh, this is, this is me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I get that completely and it's not a new model, it's one that I did personally when I did chronic illness is having the label.

[SPEAKER_01]: at time felt like such a relief, like, okay, finally, I have an answer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, all these ways that I'm broken makes sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I finally have this identity of why all these things are wrong with me, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a reason why my body's doing this, or I reason why I experienced the world this way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, relief and community and answers.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm not going to take away from that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That can be beautiful.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I watched this happen in chronic illness.

[SPEAKER_01]: Land.

[SPEAKER_01]: was once I got diagnosed and I talk about this often that Lyme disease was my big, was like the straw, because the communities that I was involved with in the Lyme community were [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was an identity, it's a system that you get into and you at first feel like, oh, thank goodness.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then it's like, and then it was almost like a template for how much worse I was going to get.

[SPEAKER_01]: And over time, what initially felt like a relief and a connection [SPEAKER_01]: And I did not, and I will tell you, having chronic illness identity does not serve you.

[SPEAKER_01]: So having a brain, divergent identity in the long run doesn't serve you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now community can be beautiful and it should be, but I've watched this happen in so many other ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is where it gets dangerous.

[SPEAKER_01]: because labels become endpoints instead of starting points.

[SPEAKER_01]: They can morph from being a description into being a destiny.

[SPEAKER_01]: And when that happens, people actually stop being curious.

[SPEAKER_01]: They stop seeking, they stop growth, and frequently that stops healing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I've seen this, I saw that with myself, and then I saw this with clients over and over and over again.

[SPEAKER_01]: Once the label is in place, then it becomes like a subconscious permission slip of an end-like, [SPEAKER_01]: and a future, like a written out future, for this is the way your life is going to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it becomes this, like, okay, well, I can't change this.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is just who I am.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or parents saying, like, this is my child's identity, so we shouldn't even try to shift their experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know that that's what the world is telling us right now, but that isn't empowerment.

[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I think it's resignation, [SPEAKER_01]: And culturally, labels like neurodivergent versus neurotypical, I feel like that creates a false binary.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, honestly, it's doing the exact thing that we're saying we're not doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It makes it sound like there are two fixed species of humans.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you're either neurotypical or you're neurodivergent.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's two ways to go.

[SPEAKER_01]: In reality, [SPEAKER_01]: Every brain is adaptive, fluid, and shaped by experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can I be so bold to say that every brain in and in of itself is neurodivergent from another brain?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because they're not all identical.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and certain experiences are going to cause one brain to do one thing and another brain to do another based on the internal wiring.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're holding.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that, the reality of that person.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: The spectrum that we talk about is real, but it's not fixed.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a moving target.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's influenced by trauma, environment, belief systems, and our subconscious programming.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, yes, I totally get it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Labels can be validating, but they can also be get out of jail free cards that are not actually, [SPEAKER_01]: helpful.

[SPEAKER_01]: They can be excuses to stop questioning why our environments are producing so much suffering and it makes people sometimes stop asking whether change is possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: And from a mind change perspective, I feel like that's the most dangerous thing of all when we stop believing the mind can change.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so this is where, well, actually, I was about to say this is where some listeners may be upset.

[SPEAKER_02]: It may have started like two minutes in.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you're still with us, we can yet upset you.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's not our intention.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, going back to all of the labeling like if autism is part of someone's identity and it is part of who they are then everything you're talking about and what I've said too of like healing or getting better or like these kind of things it can be it can sound very offensive almost like we're we're saying that they shouldn't exist as they are or there's a problem with you and you shouldn't exist as you are so how do you respond to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like I hear that concern all the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: I understand it and I'm validating that concern.

[SPEAKER_01]: but it's really just it's such an important distinction.

[SPEAKER_01]: When I talk about healing, I'm not talking about erasing a person's uniqueness or saying that their identity is invalid.

[SPEAKER_01]: Healing is not about forcing people into a mold of what society says is normal.

[SPEAKER_01]: right?

[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm talking about is removing the trauma, the fear, the subconscious wiring patterns that keep someone locked into suffering.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the suffering, not the uniqueness that we're addressing.

[SPEAKER_01]: For an example, if a child can't sleep to the night, can't digest food properly [SPEAKER_01]: Like, should we just say, well, that's autism nothing can change, or should we ask, like, what if there's unprocessed trauma?

[SPEAKER_01]: What if there's subconscious wiring?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what environmental overwhelm might be contributing to this and can we shift it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I believe that autism isn't just one thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a spectrum of adaptations.

[SPEAKER_01]: And while someone's gifts, see, this is where I get to trick you.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of gifts in this.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of what I like to call superpowers that I think every brain is capable of for different reasons.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm going to use this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Something that bothers me so much is these posts and these people that say my trauma made me who I am today.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I wouldn't be this great mother, this great speaker, this great business person, this great thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I wouldn't have gone through all the trauma, that makes me mad.

[SPEAKER_01]: because what that person's saying without realizing it is that the only reason that I'm good is because of all the suffering that I went through.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, sorry, excuse the expression, but screw that, that's mean.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's gross.

[SPEAKER_01]: That you're going to take this beautiful, wonderful innocent child human being brought into this world and you're going to be like, [SPEAKER_01]: terrible things, awful things, and then you can be good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, I feel like that's the conversation that we're all having inside of our brains anyway.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just dressed up to look nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that this is a little bit like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that, [SPEAKER_01]: We have these gifts, these really beautiful gifts, like pattern recognition and creativity and deep focus, that might be part of who somebody is.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the suffering that comes from that isn't their essence.

[SPEAKER_01]: The suffering is the maladaption, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And the good news is maladaptions can change because the subconscious can change.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when I talk about healing, always, I'm talking about liberation.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about giving someone the freedom to live without layers of trauma, fear, disability that's making them stuck.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not a racing the person, in fact, I would say the opposite.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would say helping the true self shine.

[SPEAKER_01]: like true being, true, true is form of someone to shine through without being buried under maladaptive wiring.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: So then let's, we've talked a lot about a lot of things.

[SPEAKER_02]: Talk a lot about like theory and history and how and all of these different things and the surges, let's get practical for a moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: Great.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if this explosion, this uptake, this whatever of autism and neurodivergence is, as you're saying, really about maladaptive adaptations to whether it's awesome environments or store trauma, then what does healing actually look like?

[SPEAKER_02]: What can families who are listening to this and maybe they have a child with autism or maybe an individual is listening to this and they are have you know noticed there on the spectrum of this or that or neurodivergent like give me some practicals here that's great and honestly that's the heart of this conversation right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really want to leave people with hope.

[SPEAKER_01]: healing isn't about curing someone in the medical sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's about rewiring the subconscious mind.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can I actually say one thing about that?

[SPEAKER_02]: I really appreciate that you said that because like if there's anything that we really want people to make sure is highlighted and all of this that we're talking about is this isn't about like curing like you said that [SPEAKER_02]: autism or like this it's not about like this there's something wrong with you and we have to cure it it's that's a medical model right this is like obviously working with getting you know deeper into understanding the how this was formed all of this so anyway I just wanted to highlight that that this is like this is about okay what can we do from here yeah it's really about [SPEAKER_01]: It's about wiring the nervous system, because when we're talking about neurodivergence and autism, and we talk about any struggle that comes along with it, it's often we're talking about nervous system stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what we want to be doing is taking the nervous system out of survival mode.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that way we keep the superpowers and lose the struggle.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this would be, I think this is a great place to let you share a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've worked with a number of people who have an autism diagnosis and even more and more and more and now who [SPEAKER_01]: claim neurodivergence.

[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe you can give us some anecdotal story.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the first thing I'll say is when I've, well, I'll give you one story.

[SPEAKER_02]: There, you know, someone I worked with.

[SPEAKER_02]: pretty, you know, like their autistic, not so much of like the, oh, I have a little neurodivergence, like definitely some like obvious autistic tendencies.

[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things I had to explain to the parents, and this is an adult, but one of the things I had to explain to the parent of this adult, is [SPEAKER_02]: like there's nothing wrong with them, like that's the first thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is what we want everyone to know.

[SPEAKER_02]: And anything that we're talking about is autism, neurodivergence, ADHD, depression, addiction, like whatever the what you would maybe see as a problem.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's nothing wrong with that person.

[SPEAKER_02]: They are wired.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're they're living out exactly how they're wired.

[SPEAKER_02]: So they're actually functioning perfectly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes, often times, someone may not be not be functioning optimally the way they want to, and that's where we can step in and help.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's the first thing that I want to say is like when I have worked with multiple people that from themselves say, oh, I'm autistic or these are my [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they call them limitations or whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was actually working with someone about a month ago who, one of the things I really had to say, even to their partner, was like, some of the struggles that they were having as a couple because of this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had to just say, okay, so what is this like for you, the person without autism?

[SPEAKER_02]: What do you believe about like, well, is that?

[SPEAKER_02]: And then they're just saying like, how, you know, I know that this is the way they are and this is how they'll respond.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I have to kind of just decide to live with this.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, whoa, hold on just a second.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I has the other person like, so, [SPEAKER_02]: What happens inside of you when you hear this?

[SPEAKER_02]: And after some kind of like superficial answers, I got from the person who is on the spectrum that it's actually really sad to hear someone say this about them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, that's it, right there's nothing wrong.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's absolutely nothing wrong.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what can we do to help optimize the relationship?

[SPEAKER_02]: What can we do to help optimize the skills of how their brain works in a certain capacity with school, with work, with whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's what I'm about when I'm working with someone who, and honestly, this is also what I've found is like people who do, [SPEAKER_02]: see themselves a little bit more as whether they would claim neuro that neurodivergence or the label of autism or on the spectrum or whatever you want to call it, people who kind of like, there are people who have gone to a medical professional and been diagnosed with these different tests and different things and then there's people who maybe just claim it a little bit of like, oh, I think this is probably about me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Regardless of what is there, our intention [SPEAKER_02]: or my intention when I work with someone is like, okay, so for you, what do you believe is holding you back because of the belief system around the autism or the neurodivergence, so we're like, what is holding you back?

[SPEAKER_02]: and what can we do to deconstruct whatever that thing is that's holding back your nervous system, holding back your ability to function in a way that you want to function in this scenario or that scenario, whatever it is.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what we go after.

[SPEAKER_02]: In the same way that I put with someone who is not claiming autism or neurodivergence, like what's the thing that's holding you back?

[SPEAKER_02]: And what happens inside of you and what's going on?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, okay, now we're just going to go in to those subconscious programs.

[SPEAKER_02]: How they were input, how they were wired, and we're going to work with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, of course, I'm talking about people who would be considered.

[SPEAKER_02]: high functioning autistic, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because then, of course, you know, when I actually, a couple decades ago, I actually worked with children.

[SPEAKER_02]: Non-verbal children with autism, that where it's like, you need to monitor them all the time, like they'll hurt themselves or they'll, you know, things like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: and it was a really beautiful experience actually for me to be there with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what I'm talking about is when people come in specifically and they are at a level where they are verbal and able to communicate and able to, you know, go to these different places that we're asking them to go in the work.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean, I think that the biggest thing, what I would say the biggest victory is, [SPEAKER_02]: in every person that I've worked with that has, again, either kind of self-identified or been identified as autistic.

[SPEAKER_02]: The thing that I love more than anything is when they recognize inside of them, [SPEAKER_02]: that like they are beautifully made and that they are perfect just as they are and that those honestly that the building blocks, the negative building blocks of what often can happen with a child who has been dealing with autism from a young age onward, is there's going to be a lot of outside shame, a lot of outside like just you can't do this or what's wrong with you or you know [SPEAKER_02]: or like self things, frustration of like I can't get this and everyone else seems to be getting this aspect, helping liberate them from that is probably my favorite part of that work is because like it goes down to how they view value, feel, [SPEAKER_02]: and live about themselves for themselves and how they go into this world differently, knowing, oh my goodness, there's nothing wrong with my brain, my brain is so powerful, my life is so powerful, like I can, whatever, I can keep going, but that's, that's sort of, [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and I think what societies trying to do is get to that point, but skip the work.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, let's just accept people and tell people and do this.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what they neglect is that a lot of suffering comes with these diagnoses.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if we can do the work, listen, it's wiring.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think almost everybody would agree with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's wiring, it's the way the brain functions, it's the way the mind works, that gives us this diagnosis or this definition of neurodivergence or autism, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: That happened unintentionally for everybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's get in and get intentional.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if it changed that way because of the wiring and we've got these results happening, well hey, let's get in and mess with the wiring a little bit more intentionally with power and see what else we can do in there.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're just working with the same system.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, just pause for a quick disclaimer because let's say someone is like tracking with what we're saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what I want to just warn people about is if you've got a child with autism or who's on the spectrum or a neurodivergent, what we are not saying is it's all your fault and you pass down all your unprocessed trauma and that's why your child is this way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that is not what we are saying at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: what this is is an invitation into, hey, I'm sure you do a ton of other things to support your family, your child, and what this means.

[SPEAKER_01]: How about also just [SPEAKER_01]: get into your own work about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is there anything in you could like, free yourself from any possible contributors?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because then you can see clearly what is possibly your contribution to the whole thing and what's maybe ancestral, what's uniquely theirs and it really helps highlight [SPEAKER_01]: what can be done if anything can be done.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's really about freedom.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it is not about ever, ever, ever.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mine changes never about blame, guilt or shame.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I will say even like with all of the, [SPEAKER_02]: emotional driver series you often will bring up like if you grew up in a family with this and you know like it's not about like oh I identify this so that you can then blame or it's their fault and I'm this way because right it's about perhaps identifying some things and then stepping into that ability to liberate [SPEAKER_02]: yourself, your past, your family, your whatever else.

[SPEAKER_02]: And can I just add one more thing?

[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that was, I think one of the most beautiful aspects of when I've worked with people who have been neurodivergent, autistic, whatever, somewhere on the spectrum, actually what's been beautiful, I can think about one, two.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like off to top of my head, I can already think about three people [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's an obvious autism there, three of those people that I can take off on the top of my head that I've worked with, what was so beautiful is that their family also did the work.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in these are adults, like I'm not talking about children I worked, like these are adults, but their family kind of everyone was on board of like, how can we, how can we best support [SPEAKER_02]: You and like ourselves in all of this and so what what's really been amazing is to watch Some of the family life, which is then the broader life of people who they they end up doing the work as well [SPEAKER_02]: And they have a whole different view feeling about themselves, about autism, about their child, about their partner, about their friend, about their whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just, it's like everything is elevating.

[SPEAKER_02]: Everything is liberating because each person is doing their own work first.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so anyways, that's about liberation.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's really the story of mine change is.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not about, oh no, I did this to my kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I know that that's sometimes can be the negative voice in our minds that can do that to us.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's really about having an opportunity to do for our families, for ourselves, what our parents didn't have the opportunity to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I can influence the next generation in a positive way, let me do that, let me try.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of my mantra of it is I already know that there are going to be things that I passed down that probably wish I wouldn't have, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like [SPEAKER_02]: Right here, I'm with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like, oh darn, that's what that looks like when I didn't resolve it, I just coped around it and that's what it looks like in my children.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, but I don't want that just to be done.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's stuff I can do about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's stuff I can do about the way I feel about that that might change it for the way my child feels about it, which might then eradicate it from my grandchild.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just about, let's do what we can.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so like, what does that mean in practicality?

[SPEAKER_01]: So like, we get in and we uncover root experiences, subconscious moments where maybe the brain decided the world isn't safe or it's safer to withdraw or shut down or if I hyper focus on this, I won't see or feel all the other hard things [SPEAKER_01]: We're just really looking to rewire so that the nervous system no longer reacts as if they are in danger.

[SPEAKER_01]: presently, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's freeing the body by freeing the mind of generations of trauma chemistry so that sleep is addressed to digestion, regulation, resilience can return.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're looking [SPEAKER_01]: curiosity, connection, safety, and I believe that we structured the mind-change method to take all of these boxes, to make it accessible, make it user-friendly, you know, for those who will take the time to relearn and return to a healthy baseline, to work with the way that we're designed, not against it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the most important piece is like you spoke to this isn't just about an individual or about a child, a problem with a child.

[SPEAKER_01]: We see this all the time in all sorts of issues.

[SPEAKER_01]: Families who do this work often find their own trauma patterns shifting and that when parents heal, kids often respond.

[SPEAKER_01]: When kids heal, parents often, it's systemic.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just like disease, healing is systemic and healing [SPEAKER_01]: not freedom from uniqueness or superpowers or all the different divergent ways that we can be, but freedom from unnecessary suffering.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the real revolution.

[SPEAKER_01]: because if the autism explosion is a mirror of our broken environment, which I think it is, then every step toward healing is also, a step toward rehumanizing the world that we've built.

[SPEAKER_02]: Great, so if we've talked a lot about a lot of things here, [SPEAKER_02]: Can you maybe sum up all that we've talked about and maybe give some takeaways for people who, you know, after hearing all this, maybe they're feeling a little overwhelmed or maybe they're, you know, I don't know that like how the rise and autism and what do I do and maybe just, you know, give us a little bit of what to take away from it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: The biggest takeaway would be this.

[SPEAKER_01]: The autism explosion isn't actually a mystery, and it's not just genetics.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it's a mirror.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's showing us that the environments we've created physically, emotionally, and culturally are breaking down our children's minds all [SPEAKER_01]: and their bodies are adapting in ways that look like disability, but underneath they are survival strategies.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that doesn't mean that nothing can change.

[SPEAKER_01]: It means the opposite, because if the subconscious can wire itself into mal-adaption, it can rewire itself out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Trauma is not a destiny.

[SPEAKER_01]: Labels are not endpoints, and the mind is never stuck.

[SPEAKER_01]: So healing is possible, not by erasing uniqueness, but freeing people from layers.

[SPEAKER_01]: So here's the challenge to the listeners.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't accept this story as the new normal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't let labels become an end point.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think come with us, ask the deeper questions.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's look at environments.

[SPEAKER_01]: Again, not just the environments around us, [SPEAKER_01]: let's look at the subconscious mind because when we do that, we see that change is possible.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if someone is really ready to either learn more or do the work for themselves and get into it, [SPEAKER_02]: whether it's for yourself or a family member or for like what would you tell them to do?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well that's the beauty of what we're doing and the history that we have now.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've been doing this for 10 plus years.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have a lot of different ways to for people to get help.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean the podcast is a [SPEAKER_01]: I think for people that are looking for, and obviously the book, which is just now being translated into Spanish.

[SPEAKER_01]: So my guess is by the time people hear this, we will have a Spanish version of my change.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, which is amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we're trying to help more people, Italians coming next.

[SPEAKER_01]: So those are low level, easy ways to kind of get in.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think for people who might be looking for a bit of a jump start, we've got, I think give us a call, let's chat, let's do a consultation, free 20 minute consultation.

[SPEAKER_01]: That way we can hear what you're looking for, what your story is, and help direct you because we have [SPEAKER_01]: sessions, one-on-one private sessions, we have retreats, we have courses, we have all kinds of things for people.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think the good news is there's a lot of different options, but you don't need to figure those out yourself, we can help you do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So give us a call.

[SPEAKER_01]: We will just go to mindchange.com, set up your consultation, your free consultation, and let's chat.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can talk about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, lots of different ways.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thanks for the conversation.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was had a lot of heat to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of, we'll see how everyone takes this, but hopefully it's with love and appreciation.

[SPEAKER_01]: And curiosity.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not the authority here.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're just asking.

[SPEAKER_01]: We, we run by a motto if you ask better questions.

[SPEAKER_01]: You get better answers.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think this is just maybe a better question.

[SPEAKER_01]: But thanks for joining us, yeah, again.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they go all of you and our audience for joining us once again on the Mind Change podcast, where we are changing the world one mind at a time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for joining us on this episode of The Mind Change Podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: We hope that you found the insights and inspiration shared today valuable in your own journey of personal growth.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Until next time, let's keep changing the world one mind at a time.