[SPEAKER_01]: Therapy Chat Podcast Episode 507 This is the Therapy Chat podcast with Laura Regan, LCSWC.

[SPEAKER_01]: The information shared in this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health professional.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now, here's your host, Laura Regan, LCSWC.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host Laura Reagan in this week.

[SPEAKER_02]: As we continue our EMDR series, we've all heard the word resilience and there's a lot of confusion about what it is sometimes it's kind of a spiritual bypass.

[SPEAKER_02]: that people are using when they describe resilience, they're really avoiding dealing with their pain.

[SPEAKER_02]: But resilience is something that we can tap into.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's already inside of us, and there are ways to expand it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what we're talking about this week's episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sharing with you an interview with Libby Murdoch, who's an EMDR consultant and trainer who created resilience informed EMDR.

[SPEAKER_02]: Libby and I are going to be bringing resilience informed to EMDR to the Baltimore area in 2026.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're interested in that, sign up for my email list so you can get all the details.

[SPEAKER_02]: The link is in the show notes and let's get right into my conversation with Libby Murdoch.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host, Laura Reagan, and today I'm so pleased to be interviewing a colleague and new-ish friend, Libby Murdock.

[SPEAKER_02]: Libby, thank you so much for being my guest on Therapy Chat today.

[SPEAKER_00]: I am so excited to be here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're welcome.

[SPEAKER_02]: And thank you for coming back because our listeners don't know this, but we tried to record before and the storm came and my power went out and we had to, we were interrupted so we had to start all over.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm really excited because we're having amazing conversation about your work with resilience informed EMDR.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I've been really, [SPEAKER_02]: eager to get back to it so we can bring this new method of EMDR to a wider audience.

[SPEAKER_02]: But before we get into it, let's just start off by you telling our audience a little bit more about who you are and what you do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I'm Libby Murdoch.

[SPEAKER_00]: As you mentioned, I am based out of Cincinnati, Ohio.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the good old Midwest.

[SPEAKER_00]: I actually have a private practice here in Cincinnati called brain based counseling and consulting where I specialize in EMDR intensive therapy.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do some of that work in person, which is I really love that, you know, it's very transformative and a day and a half.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can do what would normally take me three to four months to do and kind of weekly hourly therapy.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I also do a lot of virtual EMDR therapy as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm duly licensed in both Ohio and North Carolina.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I still do a lot of work in the the North Carolina area as well, seeing clients and just doing training.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's the other aspect that I do.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not only a clinician, actively practicing with clients, I am really passionate about learning and about sharing, learning that I have had in my journey as a clinician.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that kind of led me to develop brain-based EMDR training.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you know me, you've gotten to see me speak before I'm a little bit of a nerd, hence brain-based because that's kind of the lens that I like to pull in whatever I'm doing, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is that neurobiology?

[SPEAKER_00]: Understanding how do experiences, environments, and relationships impact individuals, but then also how are the tools and techniques that we're using in therapy?

[SPEAKER_00]: How are those actually facilitating the kind of growth and change that we want to see with our clients?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's something I absolutely love doing is getting to train, and that kind of led me to develop my own resilience focused EMDR basic training.

[SPEAKER_00]: and I got to work with them, Drea, to get that M-Drea approved.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm super excited that that's something that is now accessible for folks if they haven't taken a basic EMDR training and they want to learn how to do EMDR.

[SPEAKER_00]: But not just do EMDR, do more trauma-responsive EMDR than resilience-focused EMDR is a great option for basic training.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I think I called it resilience informed, but it's actually resilience-focused EMDR, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is an Andrea approved basic training and your company is called brain-based counseling and consulting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you do other EMDR trainings besides the basic training or is that the main one you offer right now?

[SPEAKER_00]: So I do both basic and advanced, and that's one other thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I actually recently established a second company, brain-based EMDR training.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I want to talk with me about my counseling services.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's brain-based counseling, but if they're interested in EMDR training, it would be brain-based EMDR.

[SPEAKER_00]: is the the name of that company that I do the the EMDR training through.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I do basic.

[SPEAKER_00]: I also do advanced and I've had several advanced programs approved through Mjray as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then I also just do other general trainings.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have my own model for psychological CPR that I actually train with a lot of first responders and peers.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's a form of psychological first aid that allows people to intervene with recent events things that have happened within the past three months.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then I also do other trainings on the neuropalogy of trauma, the neuropalogy of resilience and relationships.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, just I really enjoy training.

[SPEAKER_00]: So lots of EMDR training, but also just lots of other trainings in general.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's great.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for explaining all of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to say like, you mentioned this, but I have attended training with you, not your EMDR training, but [SPEAKER_02]: at a conference last year and you're a very dynamic speaker and you you know you call yourself a nerd but you make the topic interesting and clear these new concepts for a lot of people to understand the way our brains respond to trauma and it's not just nerdy stuff it's actually like making sense out of what's going on inside that makes us behave the way they do [SPEAKER_02]: that we do.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think my opinion, you know, neurobiology of trauma and the like interpersonal neurobiology, that's all essential to understand.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know there are some methods that, you know, don't focus on that at all, but to me, it's a must.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm really glad that you have this gift for [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, everyone.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, and general public.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that really means a lot for you to say that because I think again, you know, it's something I'm so passionate about and, you know, even when I go and learn from kind of the experts, you know, in the field, you know, it's, it's like, how can we, how can we not only simplify this, right, so that anybody can have a conversation about it and it doesn't feel like it's going over your head, how can we also synthesize it and bring together all of the different pieces, you know, kind of like you were saying within a personal neuro biology.

[SPEAKER_00]: How can we bring together everything that we know from the different disciplines about neurobiology and turn it into something that is applicable?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's great to have the scientific concept, but then what does it look like to put that in action with your clients?

[SPEAKER_00]: Again, which I think was such a big inspiration for me in developing resilience, [SPEAKER_00]: help people to develop as more trauma responsive EMDR clinicians, but can we also empower them to make neurobiology and information about the brain and how EMDR impacts the brain and facilitates positive trauma resolution?

[SPEAKER_00]: Can we teach them to make that accessible to their clients as well?

[SPEAKER_00]: Which I think for me, you know, in my experience as a clinician, [SPEAKER_00]: It's been such a huge part of the buy-in that I can get with my clients, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's one thing to give your client a mindfulness skill and say, hey, go practice that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's another thing to be able to expand to that or explain to them how this can expand their window of tolerance or reprogram their baseline mood state or [SPEAKER_00]: you know, I like to say sell the results not the product, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: How this can actually help them start to feel better, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Which we know is going to enhance their motivation to do the things that are outside of their comfort zone.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I, I love it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so how did you start this?

[SPEAKER_02]: What made you, I guess you could, if you want to go with how you got into the field or just why you created resilience, [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'll give you a short and a long story.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, kind of what happened was when I was in graduate school.

[SPEAKER_00]: So during my master's program, one year for Christmas, my mom got me the book brain on fire.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a New York Times best seller.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you haven't read it, highly recommend go check it out.

[SPEAKER_00]: They've also turned it into a movie.

[SPEAKER_00]: But even though I was in graduate school at the time and so that meant I really didn't read anything.

[SPEAKER_00]: I skimmed everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: I read this book in like 24 hours and it left a huge impression on me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I won't give away, you know, what happens in the end, but basically there's a woman.

[SPEAKER_00]: who thinks she's having mental health symptoms and it ends up being truly something very different in the end.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so it was like this big impact on me of wow, like I'm going to be working with people's brains.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I better understand, again, the things that I'm asking them to do in the interventions that I'm using [SPEAKER_00]: How is that actually going to impact their brain, their body and their nervous system?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so when it was time for me to find a supervisor, I went to, you know, the lead of my program.

[SPEAKER_00]: I said, hey, I need you to help me find someone who can help me learn everything I can about the brain.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm so grateful they introduced me to one of my mentors, very dear friend.

[SPEAKER_00]: She was actually with me in London when we met her name's Mary Vicario.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she likes to call me her little mini Amy Fairfowler.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm kind of like, you know, she's helped me become the nerd that I am today.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so now she and I get to go and travel.

[SPEAKER_00]: And again, learn from Dan Seagull, Bessel Vandercolt, Janina Fisher, you know, all of the people Peter Levine, Gabor Mate, all the people that are kind of Stephen Porges, you know, all the people that are leading experts in the field.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's been a really fun experience.

[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I kind of have this passion.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: I need to learn about the brain.

[SPEAKER_00]: I need to understand how environments, relationships and experiences are impacting my clients and the issues that they're having and then I need to know what interventions are doing in the brain.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so part of the training that she and I took.

[SPEAKER_00]: was a traumatic stress-certificate program through the trauma resource institute, which used to be run by vessel Vandercolp.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in that training, Bessel talked about EMDR.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he talked about the fact that he was a skeptic at first, and he didn't believe it, and he went to training and got partnered with someone who didn't even like him and wouldn't tell him as trauma.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so he was even more convinced that it wasn't going to work.

[SPEAKER_00]: and guess what happened, his quote unquote client got better, and that's when Bessel bought in, you know, to EMDR.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I still remember what he said at the training, using top-down methods, for example, cognitive behavioral therapy to treat trauma, is akin to taking someone's tonsils out through their nose.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's possible, but why would you, when there may be better, more effective methods that allow you to go straight to the source, and thus was the inspiration for me taking an EMDR training, [SPEAKER_00]: So I took an EMDR training back in 2016, again, it kind of became my jam.

[SPEAKER_00]: I became not only a clinician of EMDR, but a client of EMDR, and then eventually a consultant of EMDR, and then working my way up to, you know, becoming a trainer.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think again, just the way my brain works, just like I can simplify and synthesize concepts.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was starting to notice maybe the different ways that I would say things in a training or bells and whistles that I wanted people to get when they came to basic training.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that was kind of the inspiration.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was literally at an EMDR training and I was like, I think I'm going to create resilience focused EMDR because everyone has, you know, in the world of EMDR trainings, everybody puts kind of their own little spin on the basic stuff that Francine Shapiro has.

[SPEAKER_00]: you know, in the original text.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so for me, the spin was resilience, which is relationship and bringing in that neurobiology piece that I think just again is such a value add to the training and also helping people understand, because I think a lot of times when people think about EMDR training, they're thinking about this and the eye movements and the tapping and when we're doing trauma processing.

[SPEAKER_00]: little do they understand EMDR is a comprehensive model for therapy and their other components of EMDR therapy that can be just as impactful if not maybe sometimes more impactful for our clients who've experienced trauma than the trauma resolution phases of EMDR and specifically for anyone who knows you know the phases of EMDR I'm talking about our phase two preparation.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when we help clients build resources, and so that's also something in the resilience focused EMDR training, we go much deeper into phase two because a lot of people don't realize phase two has the power to reshape the nervous system, you know, just in a different way that we're doing when we do processing phases three through six.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I love that you said that because, and now, one thing that's different between when we talked in January and now when we were interrupted in January, I've, I've now done the D.R.

[SPEAKER_02]: pre-sick training.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I really know what you're talking about now.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, I had heard people talk about the eight phases and everything, but now I get it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, get it get it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: As a trauma therapist, and I always say this when I talk about EMDR, I've worked with a lot of people who, you know, I'm sure you've seen this Libby people, people who've experienced trauma, and I'm including attachment wounds in trauma, and also when I say people who've experienced trauma, I mean, almost everyone, I know I have, [SPEAKER_02]: No offense, but I'm sure you have like absolute most people have experienced some kind of trauma.

[SPEAKER_02]: We know from the adverse childhood experiences study that is exceedingly common for children to have adverse experiences where there's no one to help them in those moments.

[SPEAKER_02]: No one to help them emotionally to recover, to make sense out of it, so they can't process it and it has to be split off.

[SPEAKER_02]: know how most adults that are walking around in our world right now are living.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, 67% are more, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So [SPEAKER_00]: And can we give, can we give the audience a working definition of trauma?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because you and I were talking about this before we came on, but I think it bears repeating the DSM, which is how we clinicians diagnose people, it really pigeonholes you with the definition that it would give you of what trauma is.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, someone has to have had some sort of serious threat of their life or of their, you know, person, you know, whereas when you actually zoom out trauma, [SPEAKER_00]: Trauma is any experience that involves some degree of loss of controller vulnerability, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: The inability to change things around and intense negative feelings and sensations, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: If those two things are met, you can consider that a trauma.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think when you use the [SPEAKER_00]: could qualify as a trauma, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because people may not think, oh, you know, when I was sad and my parent didn't know how to show up for me and help me feel scenes who's safe and secure, people may not have considered that a trauma, but in reality, that could, right, fit that definition or even the idea of being bullied, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That's another thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Again, it wouldn't fit the DSM definition, but it would definitely fit our definition for the things that are traumatic.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm even recalling what Francine Shapiro says, any event that has a lasting negative effect on the psyche is by its nature traumatic so I was just I was like a bobblehead over here the whole time you were talking to us here all affected right and that's what that was another thing that was so cool for me about learning the neurobiology is like this idea that oh like nobody's broken here [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're a mental illness or people with mental health problems.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is in a reaction to experiences.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it that's what it results in, but it doesn't we people have this idea of mental health as even when the words mental health are spoken it's seen as you have a sickness.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, when we talk about health, when we say health, we don't think that means disease.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when we say mental health, it's like, oh, problems, illnesses, disorders, pathology, some things wrongs, that person's not okay, some things different about them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's not, you know, we all have mental health, our health, our mental health, and our physical health, are part of.

[SPEAKER_02]: us, as long as, as well as our emotional, spiritual health.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, I want to share with you a definition that I love from, I haven't here on a piece paper, Bonnie, Badenox, the heart of trauma.

[SPEAKER_02]: The definition there is any experience of fear and or pain that doesn't have the support it needs to be digested and integrated into the flow of our [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that's really more about developmental trauma, but, you know, to me, that's where the hurts That happen now can't be integrated because back then we didn't get in some ways what we needed.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's that's kind of my operating assumption when I'm working with people in therapy [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but I love that you keep using the word integration, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's what Dan Seagall would actually define as mental health.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mental health is integration.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so when we have, and this is kind of bringing it back to EMDR, in EMDR, we have the adaptive information processing model.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that helps us to understand that memories, environments, relationships, and experiences that form and create memories, [SPEAKER_00]: those are really contributing to the development of all of us, the good and the bad, right, because we have adaptive and then we have things that are maybe maladaptive, right, from the result of those more traumatic experiences.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's what I love about EMDR is that it very much supports what we were just talking about this idea that [SPEAKER_00]: if you're struggling, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: If you're a people pleaser, if you have imposter syndrome, if you have perfectionism, you know, or if you're someone who has anxiety, depression, or post-traumatic stress disorder, again, it's not that there's something wrong with you.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's the sign of past environments, relationships, and experiences, or memories.

[SPEAKER_00]: right that are not integrated.

[SPEAKER_00]: And because those have been fully integrated into the system, we see those symptoms or those challenges right that our clients often come to therapy with.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so to me, like what a more compassionate way to see yourself and your clients, then again, it's not that there's something wrong with them.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually the result of some sort of a [SPEAKER_00]: and we can use positive trauma resolution to, again, resolve those stuck memories that are an integrated and help them become integrated.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I just, I love EMDR for that reason, you know, what I mean, it has this very, I mean, it's obviously scientific, right, because there's a ton of evidence, it's research, it's evidence-based, it's research-based, but [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost intuitive too, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like when you hear those ideas and concepts, and I can only speak for myself, but I would guess it's the same for you, that just feels so in alignment, this idea that again, it's not that I was ever broken, it's that, I need to work through some of these memories, you know, and when I do that, and those are integrated into my system, then the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors get to change in line with that, with the resolution of those memories.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and I just this may complicate things a little bit, but I just wanted to name Additionally, and this is something you and I were talking about before we start recording How it's memories, but there's all like when you mentioned the environment and it's not always just the environment you grew up in even though I was emphasizing developmental trauma [SPEAKER_02]: As we were talking about, you know, we live in world, especially the Western world, where, you know, the colonized world, where colonization has been, culture has been stripped, norms and values and ways that were traditional.

[SPEAKER_02]: earth-based indigenous have been stripped and in a way it's like integrating those back and those aren't necessarily memories.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe the imprint is held in your body implicitly, but it's not like you necessarily have a memory of something from what your ancestors may have had stolen from them or, you know, forcibly taken from them right decades and centuries back, but additionally, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, Justin, the way your DNA is read and transcribed, though.

[SPEAKER_00]: So even though you don't have a memory quote unquote, it does live.

[SPEAKER_00]: He has to.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's something even.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think Lisa Danini talked about last year when we were all in London.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think she said it goes back like 14.

[SPEAKER_00]: 14 generations and that's that live inside of all of us.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm so glad you even mentioned, you know, the cultural aspect to it as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you know this about me or not, but I'm actually why you don't need American.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I've been on the role with the tribes since I was born.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, that was even though I've always known that about myself, I have not ever had the opportunity to really connect with that part of my culture until a few years ago when I got to attend a pow-out for the first time.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, each culture found ways to do these things that again, we can now prove work with science.

[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't know that then, but these were very much the traditions, you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: of cultures.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think even when we think about doing EMDR, that's one of the things we like to emphasize in our program is that we don't exist in a vacuum, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And we really truly are in a time and space in our culture where you can't necessarily know everything there is to know about someone just by looking at them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so we need to be having these conversations and making sure that we're tailoring whatever the approaches.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care if it's EMDR, CBT, or [SPEAKER_00]: You know, to meet our clients where they're at and also to honor, you know, resources that are inherent inside of them and inside of their culture, because just like we have the genetic tags and all of the stuff from the generations of trauma, we also have generational resilience as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so what a great way to be able to honor that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to talk about generational resilience and the innate.

[SPEAKER_02]: drive towards wholeness and integration that our systems have.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I want to name, I feel like it would kind of be a huge omission if we didn't name almost like just full circle how you mentioned being part of a tribe.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can you say the name of your tribe again?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why in dot?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why in dot native Americans?

[SPEAKER_00]: So we originated by New York and Canada.

[SPEAKER_00]: We then [SPEAKER_00]: ending up where we're at or where the reservation is located currently in Oklahoma.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so just to name that colonization here in the United States this land that was inhabited by the native peoples of this land and how we the white settlers came and [SPEAKER_02]: tribes, though they weren't all eradicated, but so many were, and so many thousands and millions of people were, and how you are part of that tribe, and you, in a way, it was stripped from you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You didn't have connection, even though you were part of the tribe, and then you went to this powwow, and here you are with all the science knowledge, which science is part of the colonization.

[SPEAKER_02]: right but you know you go it's like coming back and going yeah the rhythmic movement is bilateral simulation we know this works we know this is real but also they knew this was real they oh they didn't need to have their culture erased in order to for all of us to learn because they always knew that these ways were real and effective and it's the community connection [SPEAKER_02]: so important.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I just, I'm saying this is a white person.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to speak out of term, but I just feel like it's so present in this conversation.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like if I didn't say it, it would be a huge obsession.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and I think to add to that too, write these concepts of historical and intergenerational trauma, because I feel like we've been dancing around it, so let's just say what is, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because things like colonization, things like slavery, things like the Holocaust, things like the Asian-American internment camps after Pearl Harbor, things like COVID.

[SPEAKER_00]: Those are all examples of historical trauma, and what a lot of what's happening in the Middle East.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, all examples of historical trauma, and that actually gives rise to the other things we've been talking about, which are patterns of intergenerational trauma, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Think about the ACEs, adverse childhood experiences, domestic violence, mental health, addiction, incest, abuse, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: All of these are actually the result of these larger historical traumas, and then they get passed down through the generations, [SPEAKER_00]: literally until someone decides, you know, the book stops here, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I am so grateful to have not only found EMDR as a clinician, but also a client because those are things that I run up against in my processing all the time, which might be surprising to people that in EMDR, you're not only rewriting your own nervous system in your own story in some ways, you're rewriting some of the things that didn't even belong to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: That again, our things that have been passed [SPEAKER_00]: And one in a piphany, right, that is when you realize, like, oh, oh my God, this was never actually my problem.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's not been a template for this happening in a healthy way in any generation that came before me, so no wonder it was a challenge for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: So.

[SPEAKER_02]: really boring.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that's beautiful.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for sharing that and let's take if you if you will.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's take the rest of our time for you to tell us what because you know, just to say real quick what people are thinking about when we're talking about trauma when we're talking about.

[SPEAKER_02]: you know, rewriting memories of negative experiences.

[SPEAKER_02]: Revisilians focus EMDR is not exactly, you're tapping into something different.

[SPEAKER_02]: Am I right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Not just the removing a negative thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So so what is resilience focused EMDR and like, how is it different than just standard.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the thing that I like to tell people is that even though this is a basic training, the training is anything but basic and not only are you going to get all of the original concepts that Francine Shapiro intended.

[SPEAKER_00]: Michael was it for it to be an expansion.

[SPEAKER_00]: So a couple of the things that you're going to get with resilience focused EMDR.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to get that neurobiological lens, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: We talk a lot about the brain science between behind how EMDR works and also how to explain that to your clients in a way that makes it accessible for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: the other component is that we also teach trauma responsive EMDR.

[SPEAKER_00]: So again, we're giving you the full view of the different ways that you can approach EMDR.

[SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of us are working with complex trauma, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so kind of the first and most of us, yes, most of us.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so the first and worst approach where we dive headfirst into the deep end with working on someone's trauma, that's not the only way and that's not always the best way [SPEAKER_00]: with these really complex clients.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I would most of us are complex, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: All it takes to be complex is that you have more than one negative cognition and you have, you know, multiple traumatic experiences.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, but yeah, this idea that with resilience focused EMDR, we can make EMDR processing accessible to a wider variety of clients, because we truly help you understand what is the function of bilateral stimulation in the positive trauma resolution process.

[SPEAKER_00]: And how can you as the therapist influence what's coming up for your client so that it can be digestible for them and they don't end up feeling like Alice just felt fell down the rabbit hole and not in a good way because that can sometimes happen with the MDR if we go to the too fast or we do too much too soon, it actually scares our clients or they abreact or they things start getting worse for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that was a big reason why I wanted to develop this resilience focused EMDR.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then the last thing, and this is I think one of the coolest things about resilience focused EMDR.

[SPEAKER_00]: In addition to those standard EMDR resources that we all get in basic trainings, the case, the container, belly breathing, I have actually created additional scripts for developing resources that could literally be hundreds or thousands of resources with just five or six scripts.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the other cool thing, is that when you take resilience focused EMDR, you actually get additional scripts for resourcing with your complex clients and a different frame for how to use resourcing with your clients to not only teach them methods for coping, but we also go into this idea of regulation and how can with these positive emotional resources [SPEAKER_00]: You not only help someone feel better, but you help them get a wider window of tolerance.

[SPEAKER_00]: You help them reprogram their baseline mood state, and these things are possible with resources in EMDR without even necessarily touching the trauma.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we help you get the most out of every phase of EMDR, not just the trauma resolution and the processing phases.

[SPEAKER_00]: And not to mention, you get really pretty workbooks and visual aids and we really wanted it to feel like an experience.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think, you know, I took the things that I enjoy and training and wanted to make them accessible to anyone coming to take the course.

[SPEAKER_00]: So.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I, you know, I, what I was going to say before about and I always get so long-winded, but what I was going to say before about the phases is people when they hear EMDR, they go, I got it, you know, I've suffered so much, for so, so, so long.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to do EMDR, I need to get this done and there can be this intense sense of urgency to process.

[SPEAKER_02]: People [SPEAKER_02]: One and two, they want to be processing, processing, processing, and, you know, but that's where the every action happens because their nervous system is not ready to tolerate, that's why they're not able to get there, you know, before that, they're not, I mean, maybe it's that they haven't had trauma therapy, but even if you are in trauma therapy, your system has to be ready to go there safely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what phase two is all about is really expanding the person's ability to tolerate the discomfort of going to that material.

[SPEAKER_02]: So is what makes it resilience focused that you are implementing those expanding the window of tolerance techniques and phase two, you got it.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're teaching a different frame for resources.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just teaching your clients to cope, and use resources reactively.

[SPEAKER_00]: We also teach proactive use of resources, which can empower clients to expand their window of tolerance and reprogram their baseline mood state.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so when I personally have taught my clients the difference between coping and regulation, they come in and they say things like, I feel comfortable in my skin for the first time.

[SPEAKER_00]: or yeah, I had that trigger come up and it was upsetting, but you know what?

[SPEAKER_00]: It didn't derail me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's almost like with those resources, you know, we can help them start to feel better and really make them a better candidate for the trauma resolution because what you just highlighted there, Laura, was something I say a lot in consultation, which is that someone's desire to process a certain target in their past does not mean they have a distressed tolerance to match.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's where E as clinicians have to be really cautious.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I like to be more conservative, you know, when I'm doing EMDR with with clients for that reason.

[SPEAKER_00]: So [SPEAKER_02]: Me too.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that clinicians can feel a lot of pressure to hurry up in process because the client is pushing for that because they're like, I've got it and it's like, that should be a clue that actually this person needs more support in being regulated than they actually need more support and processing at this time because they're feeling such an intense [SPEAKER_02]: distress.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's what the urgency is telling you.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just that they're like, I'm sick of all this wasting time.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's, their system is going, do it now, do it now.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's what trauma tells you, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: If it's done, get it over with, you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: that that urgency is a trauma response, and it's actually an invitation for us, and I just think about polyvagal theory, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of people don't fundamentally understand.

[SPEAKER_00]: Trauma work isn't just about trauma resolution, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's also about helping clients to acclimate to positive feelings and sensations in their nervous system.

[SPEAKER_00]: and, you know, kind of a dance, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Between doing trauma work and approaching that negative emotion, but also helping them to get really good and really comfortable sitting with and creating good feelings inside of their nervous system as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: Which I think is huge, though.

[SPEAKER_02]: that's what we call post-traumatic growth right where you have a transformation that comes from the healing process.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just like, you know, it's not just like you have a assist in your skin and you remove the cysts.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's not what we're doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's more of a, you know, it's a, [SPEAKER_02]: So, Libby, my last question before we wrap up is, if people are already trained in EMDR basic training, is there a way that they can learn resilience, focused EMDR without having to do that basic training again?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a great question, so currently we do offer the 40 hour training as a refresher so that is one option if you're like, man, it's been a while since my basic training, like I could, I could use, you know, a little bit of a refresher there.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great opportunity and I've had several colleagues who took basic training and then took ours as a refresher and one of my colleagues actually ended up crying after taking the training because she's like, this is the first time I've actually really felt [SPEAKER_00]: confident and really feeling like I get it finally.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, that that's an option.

[SPEAKER_00]: We do plan to continue to host advanced trainings moving forward in the future.

[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of long-term goal is that we would have on-demand advanced trainings available.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then again, you know, if you work with a group or an agency and you're looking for someone to provide advanced EMDR training, don't hesitate to reach out because that's something that I love to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love to travel and, you know, just share my knowledge and experience with folks.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, if you're looking to learn how to do intensive or if you want to learn my advanced resourcing skills or how to use EMDR therapy with non-diagnocable issues, those are all topics that I love to train on.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, [SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know you are so passionate about this and it really comes through.

[SPEAKER_02]: Even again, the way you talked today.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just I'm asking you this and that you're just like going right with it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just love the way you're very agile in your thinking.

[SPEAKER_02]: So how can people where do people find your your two organizations?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if they're interested in learning more about an EMDR intensive as a client, they would visit brainbase counseling.com.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if they're interested in learning more about EMDR training or any of my other trainings that I offer, they'd want to visit www.brainbaseemdr.com.

[SPEAKER_00]: and I would love to share for anyone who's listening.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in taking our EMDR basic training, if you use code EMDR 2024, we'll give your listeners $200 off the cost of their initial training.

[SPEAKER_00]: So just wanted to share that out there as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: Fabulous.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm glad that we are seeing in touch because I have so much more to say to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: But for now, thank you so much for being my [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me.

[SPEAKER_00]: The universe couldn't keep us apart.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I can't wait to see what fun we get into in the future.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, me too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening to therapy chat with your host, Laura Reagan.

[SPEAKER_01]: LCSWC.

[SPEAKER_01]: For more information, please visit therapychat podcast.com.