[SPEAKER_00]: Therapy Chat Podcasts Episode 509 This is the Therapy Chat Podcast with Laura Regan LCSWC The information shared in this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health professional.

[SPEAKER_00]: And now, here's your host Laura Regan LCSWC [SPEAKER_01]: I welcome back to Therapy Chat.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Laura Reagan, and today I'm bringing you a replay of a conversation about EMDR.

[SPEAKER_01]: I talked with my friend, Rotem Breyer, before I was trained in EMDR.

[SPEAKER_01]: about how EMDR can be a deeply meaningful therapeutic method.

[SPEAKER_01]: People can learn things about themselves that they didn't understand, heal, deep wounds, even developmental trauma, and there's so much potential for what can happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: through EMDR and some people say that it's too protocol-based to driven by the structure of following the eight steps.

[SPEAKER_01]: Rotem wrote a book called The Art and Science of EMDR and he's talking about how to bring more of the heart into the work when you're using EMDR as a therapist.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we had a really fun conversation about that and I put that together with another previous interview I did with Rotemore.

[SPEAKER_01]: He talked about using psychedelics and EMDR together in therapy.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that is another really different way of working with EMDR to bring together [SPEAKER_01]: Psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and the EMDR eight phase protocol.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I put these two episodes together so that you can think about being creative as an EMDR therapist or if you're a person who's considering EMDR therapy, or maybe hasn't had the experience with the EMDR that you were looking for to help you understand that there are many different ways [SPEAKER_01]: to use this method while keeping fidelity to the model.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I hope this conversation or these two conversations with Rotembrayer will be interesting and thought provoking for you and I'd love to hear what you think.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you as always for listening to Therapy Chat.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So as we come toward the end of 2025, I just want to let you know that I really appreciate you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host Laura Reagan and today I'm so excited to be speaking with Rotem Breyer, the author of the art and science of EMDR.

[SPEAKER_01]: Rotem.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for being my guest today on Therapy Chat.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me Laura excited to be with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm excited too.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was really immediately drawn to your book, and I must tell everyone that the person who helped us get connected with each other is Dr.

Jamie Merich, who called herself a friend of yours, and obviously Jamie respects you greatly.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I was instantly interested in speaking with you, and then the title of your book really drew me into the art and science of EMDR.

[SPEAKER_01]: Before we get to talking about your book, can we start off with you just telling our audience a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, so I am an EMDR therapist and a consultant.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am the co-founder of EMDR Denver, which is a practicing Denver that focuses on our approaches.

[SPEAKER_02]: EMDR first, so it's not that we're only EMDR in other clients, you know, where we are both therapists, but we are our approach from the moment we conceptualize clients' issues, [SPEAKER_02]: It's with a framework of EMDR and we just found that EMDR is a very, very effective method to treat our clients.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm always excited about learning and talking with other EMDR clinicians.

[SPEAKER_02]: I started the EMDR learning community, which is a community for [SPEAKER_02]: train EMDR therapists.

[SPEAKER_02]: If people are in training, we're letting them in, but and it's really exciting to be in a community.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know Laura, you have your own community and it's really excited to be with fellow clinicians who are excited about the work, excited about learning and always growing as clinicians.

[SPEAKER_01]: I agree.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, trauma work is specialized work and [SPEAKER_01]: and believe in it and believe that healing is possible and know that, you know, people who have been through the worst things can come out on the other side with not only healing, but growth as a result of that, I guess you could say corrective experience of therapy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, Rodtham, I wanted to just sort of pick up on something that you said just then when you said, we're not just EMDR and people, but we are therapists.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can you explain a little bit about what you're saying with that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, that takes me directly to chapter 3 of my book, which is [SPEAKER_02]: something that we're not talking enough about in the MDR world, we're focusing on protocols and scripts and techniques, but the therapeutic relationships we know from decades and decades of research that is a number one predictor of positive therapeutic outcomes.

[SPEAKER_02]: We know that.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's, you know, regardless of what, you know, EMDR, CBT, DBT, whatever, somatic, you have to have established relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is really important.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that, you know, we need to talk about it more.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is a big part of what I'm talking about and it's a big part of what I emphasize and my own, you know, treatment with clients.

[SPEAKER_02]: and I also want other EMDR therapists to be aware of that, that it's not just the protocol, the relationship comes first.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think in our field what I'm observing, I certainly, when I went to grad school and I graduated in 2010, [SPEAKER_01]: with my MSW.

[SPEAKER_01]: So 12, 13 years ago, my school was so heavily focused on evidence-based practice.

[SPEAKER_01]: We were really kind of indoctrinated that evidence-based practices the way to go, which I agree that we want to be sure that what we're doing is therapeutically beneficial and that it's been shown to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I also think that really what is evidence is not always as clear cut as just what has been replicated in a randomized control trial and partly that's because it's impossible to measure or it's been difficult to measure the quality of the therapeutic relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad you're bringing up because that's one of the things that I talk about in the book.

[SPEAKER_02]: How do you how do you measure the therapeutic relationships?

[SPEAKER_02]: There are some methods.

[SPEAKER_02]: Don't necessarily believe in them.

[SPEAKER_02]: There are some methods for measuring the therapeutic relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very structured, you know, play F plants, fill, questionnaires, and [SPEAKER_02]: beginning and end of every session is something that, you know, you mentioned randomized control trials and one of the things I'm looking into, and this is not EMDR, but psychedelic assisted psychographies.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really interested in that too.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are getting it.

[SPEAKER_02]: That is not going away.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is here to say, you know, you talked about healing has a lot of healing potential.

[SPEAKER_02]: You cannot do, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: and with psychedelics.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, what do you do?

[SPEAKER_02]: We have a gold standard, but you don't have a way to fit that in.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, the point is that we don't always have to fit what we do into that structure was created for us, but we can see what actually works and we know what works.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, that brings me back to the relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, [SPEAKER_01]: I think this conversation will be really helpful for people who are EMDR therapists to kind of expand the way they're thinking about what should be happening in the protocols, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, you do have a protocol to follow, but how do you do it?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't have a chance to read your whole book, but just in as I was going through it as my cat joins us, [SPEAKER_01]: And for those who are watching this on video, we'll get a close up of him.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think I really liked one thing I saw in your book right off hand was that you're talking a lot about how to do resourcing and you're very specifically telling people what they can do to help clients win.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think that's really, really valuable.

[SPEAKER_02]: right, right, right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm talking about, you know, in, in, basically, MDR, training people learn, for example, the container exercise, which is enough, you know, to, to simplify put your emotions in a box.

[SPEAKER_02]: And for some people, it just doesn't work.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what I'm suggesting is to upgrade, to do, do it differently, the, the container doesn't have to be a box that can be whatever fits your client.

[SPEAKER_02]: The, the idea is that you want to help the client regulate their nervous system.

[SPEAKER_02]: you want to help them be resource because when we get to reprocessing, it's going to be intense.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we need to teach them ways to, you know, to regulate their their nervous system.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if we don't do that, you're a cat is cracking me up.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we, we have to do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it doesn't matter if the container is a box.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if it's, you know, a black hole, one of the [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't matter what it is, as long as it function, it does what it's supposed to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think, you know, one thing you're talking about is just being more creative with it and sort of trusting yourself as a therapist to come up with the way that's going to or maybe working together with the client to come up with the way that's going to resonate the most for them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, you know, so the art and the science, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're focusing on the science, but there's an art part and the art is the right brain, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And therapy healing happens right brain to right brain.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if the therapist, what happens so a lot of therapists when they get trained in the EMDR is that they feel like it's too rigid, they can beat themselves.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is the myth that I'm trying to [SPEAKER_02]: kind of break there that you should, it's not only that you can be yourself as who you are as a client or as an individual and as a therapist, you should be yourself because this is necessary for the healing to happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can you say more about that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Why isn't necessary for the therapist to be themselves?

[SPEAKER_01]: We're beginning to happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you're not yourself, if you are reading a script and you're doing this and you're reading every word from the script and you're not paying attention to your client and you're not being authentic, your client will feel, I think that days of like lying on a couch and there's a therapist behind you who's not saying anything, these things are gone, even for people who [SPEAKER_02]: into the therapy and our clients expect that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that when we tried to be so detached and that's where that's what I took away from the way I was trained in school that I'm basically what I took away was hide hide any parts of you that don't seem professional, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And being professional means they the client cannot really feel you, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the opposite of what my clients find resonant in our work is that they do feel felt.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what helps them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that if you're doing that first of all, clients will feel if they ask, you know, if my clients ask me a personal question on most cases unless it's, you know, extremely personal, I'll tell them, I haven't nothing to [SPEAKER_02]: Why go with that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Why would you like to know?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know like that, that classic therapy response that we learn that school?

[SPEAKER_02]: Why would you like to know?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like let's, let's go back to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm a person.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sitting here with you and if you want to know something about I have nothing to hide.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, because what they're really looking for there is they want to know that you can understand.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're strumble.

[SPEAKER_01]: They do want to know about you, but they really want to know, are you safe right for me right exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it would be really valuable if you would share.

[SPEAKER_01]: We had talked about this a little bit before we started recording.

[SPEAKER_01]: We shared a little bit about how you came to EMDR and what your learning process was like.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I had been at Therapas for about 10 years before I got training in EMDR.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember the first day of the basic training and I remember thinking, [SPEAKER_02]: This is why I became a therapist all this stuff that I've done all these years that was like a Preparation that was kind of like a forplay Who or what is going to happen to start happening now and I've really have been Dedicating myself to studying this method and it's not just the MBR just you know to give them you know your listeners to [SPEAKER_02]: The full picture, it's a lot of integrations.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's integration with parts work, modalities, whatever you want to call it, you know, IFS, or egostate therapy, somatic, a lot of somatic work.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, our deeper emotions, especially trauma, is stored in a nonverbal way.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, a lot of somatic work.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, I really spend a lot of time [SPEAKER_02]: studying it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And as I studied it, I figured out right a book to share what I learned and give, you know, getting in the earth helpless, a slightly different perspective.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I think like a lot of people, I've been talking with a lot of people, a lot of EMDR trainers and authors and consultants.

[SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: therapists, and a lot of people are saying that.

[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people agree with or what I'm saying, but I didn't see it in the literature.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't see it in things that it's being talked about.

[SPEAKER_02]: I figured I'll write a book and share this knowledge with other EMDR therapists.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I'm so glad you did.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so when we were talking, you mentioned that you actually [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I got that a little bit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I did.

[SPEAKER_02]: And again, that's that was part of my research for the book to see how it's being taught.

[SPEAKER_02]: I did my basic training with one institute when I was consulting training with another institute.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then when I became a consultant, I actually went to floor that to training with one of my favorite people, Dr.

Andrew Dobo, who has a Jungian background.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the impression that people get when they get trained in basic MDR training is that this is the only way that India is being taught.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is the only way to do the right way to do MDR.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what I found in these trainings is that from the moment you start even conceptualizing the client's issues, there's some differences.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's variations in how [SPEAKER_02]: people think about plans issues, whether if it's like going back to the earliest or more present symptoms, so there are different approaches inside the India, which makes sense, but I think that for people who just got trained, there is only one way to do it and oftentimes it fills rigid.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so do you think that there are multiple different ways that the same protocols can be conceptualized and delivered?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that it's it's all about who's declined and who's in front of you.

[SPEAKER_02]: what do they need?

[SPEAKER_02]: What are their coping skills?

[SPEAKER_02]: What do they see their issue as?

[SPEAKER_02]: We always have to think about that.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not about whether your EMDR trainer told you what this very smart EMDR author wrote in their book.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's about the person in front of you and what they need.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's my guiding principle always.

[SPEAKER_02]: What is the client in front of me?

[SPEAKER_02]: Who [SPEAKER_02]: Who is the client in front of me and what do they need and and to give them what they need?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, because with some clients, you can move to a process, see after three or four sessions, and with other clients, it might take three or four months.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm definitely seeing examples of people who went for EMDR therapy and on the second session started EMDR where the experience didn't necessarily go the way they were hoping.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I have done that a few times and in most cases I don't because the people who show to my office usually have complex attachment issues on top of trauma and that requires some preparation work.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, when on top of my ad, I can think about a client who had going to change some details here, but, you know, the client was, I had a very stable childhood, no attachment ruptures, you know, nobody's childhood is perfect, but there were no major things.

[SPEAKER_02]: Everything was, you know, there was support in the house, and then the client had a car accident that really brought full-blown post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms.

[SPEAKER_02]: But this is not most of the work that we do.

[SPEAKER_01]: So a problem is finding people who really did have a stable support of childhood that we often think we did until until we get to therapy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was that way.

[SPEAKER_01]: I thought that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I thought what?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, my family's great.

[SPEAKER_01]: All fine, wonderful.

[SPEAKER_02]: and they are wonderful and there was a lot of stuff right right so we need to take these things into consideration because if we don't it's it can we can in sound situations [SPEAKER_02]: Like he said, you know, you know, people went to do EMDR and started a second session, that's not good.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's some bad things that can happen as a result.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I've had multiple clients who came to me who were, you know, had just had bad experiences with their DMDR work, sometimes people need to do EMDR to, you know, heal their recovery from, recover from EMDR.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say, too, that's kind of like psychedelics.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can go into it with a certain intention, just really not realizing what you don't know is there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there doesn't know either what's there if you don't know they may not know or [SPEAKER_01]: But I think there are ways that therapists can learn to do a better assessment, to really get a true picture.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in psychedelics, you know, we talk a lot about set and setting and, you know, that fits extremely important and changes the whole that the work.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, maybe it's a conversation for for another day.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's, we could go a lot into that, but I would say, I think the main thing I wanted to get across there with that point is just that even if one has had a bad experience with EMDR, doesn't mean that EMDR is not right for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: It might mean that you need a different approach.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where these beautiful integrations come into play.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever if it's, you know, sometimes you need to do some some parts work to [SPEAKER_02]: help the client relate to their wounded younger parts.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes you need to do more somatic work.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes you have to, you know, just have clients do their work, you know, I'm a big fan of do your own work at home, like doing preparation work in [SPEAKER_02]: fashion is really great but it's just the beginning and I'm talking about it in the book because there is a neurobiological reason for that.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you're not being consistent with your whatever you want to call it, calming techniques, coping skills, preparation phase, it's all the same thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you're not consistent with that, you're not [SPEAKER_02]: free-aiding or strengthening these neural networks that replace your old coping behaviors.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I provide a lot of education for my clients to help them to motivate them to do some of the work outside of session.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know what you're saying there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that it can be easy to make only make, say, 45 to 50 minutes.

[SPEAKER_01]: of time for yourself per week to sit with your therapist and that's where you do all this emotional work but you aren't doing it outside of that because you don't feel time.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have time or you just aren't used to having that much space for yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't have time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you want to do the work, you need to dedicate and you have to [SPEAKER_02]: you know, time we all have 24 hours in a day, but if you really want to work to the work and improve your mental well-being, you have to serve that work outside of his session.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it could be a long process of preparation to begin to really believe that you are worthy of this much attention.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, from your perspective, EMDR can help with trauma and attachment, weren'ts then, huh?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad you're asking this question because a lot of people think that EMDR is only good for simple trauma, whatever that means.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the first study, the first research that was published in the 80s, [SPEAKER_02]: was about just trauma.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was not not enough research about attachment and complex trauma.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now we have a lot of attention and a lot of knowledge about how to use EMDR to help clients who have these attachment wounds not to only fix bad things that happened, but to address the good things that didn't happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: And these are, again, I heard really prominent people in the therapy world, not who were training in the R, but a long time ago saying that India is not relational, and I still strongly disagree with that, because India is very, very relational.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if we're missing that part again, you know, again, talking about the relationship, we're if we're missing that part or missing a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're now going to be as effective in our EMDR work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's true.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's some kind of different, almost like maybe different generations of people trained in EMDR and who they learned through how relational it is or how much emphasis is placed on because I'm seeing some people advertising.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do EMDR for they'll say like anxiety, depression and OCD and you know, which can be expressions of trauma.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so then, you know, are you using it with the lens that you're addressing trauma?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are you using it as just a symptom reduction?

[SPEAKER_01]: If you think that that's all it can be or just, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that our understanding of what trauma is has broadened over the past few years, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So again, going back to what I said a minute ago, but it's not just bad things that happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's good things that didn't happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: that can be traumatic, or it's not only, you know, hurricanes or earthquake, so serious assaults, it can be also if you had the third great teacher who really, really didn't like you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And nobody paid attention like your parents didn't want to notice that and he went to school every day and you were miserable.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's trauma.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's stuck in your nervous system.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's affecting your thoughts, your emotions and your behaviors, even if you're, you know, 30 something, 40 something or 50 something.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'll let you do good.

[SPEAKER_02]: The EMDR and then we can take care of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and people can get EMDR in childhood, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So my friend Jackie Flynn, who I know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, Jackie.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: She is a master of VR with children.

[SPEAKER_02]: She teaches a lot of...

[SPEAKER_02]: integrate different kinds of integrations, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So she's integrating a lot of the Indian Play Therapy, for example, which is not my thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not working with kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know how to do these things, but I have a lot of respect for, you know, Jackie and many others Annie Monaco and Beckley Forests who are teaching, you know, how to work effectively with kids and they're doing amazing work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, well, thanks for those names I'll look into the last two you just mentioned who I'm not familiar with and I think this is very hopeful and helpful and I'm grateful I'm speaking of hopefulness.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was a point that you made about the positive experiences that didn't happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted to see if maybe you could share something about the positive experiences that do happen and how in EMDR you can like expand those can you yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I hope I understand your question correctly, so the positive experience that did happen or that do happen like in the therapeutic interventions like where any MDR you could have a really good feeling of safety and like right expand.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, yeah, you mentioned feeling of safety, something about the polyvagal theory and how, you know, safety and connection, right, that's classed me to feel that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And once they feel that, we see a lot of these positive experiences.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, in EMDR, we have what's called the sub-scales objective unit of disturbance.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're asking the client on a scale of 0 to 10 when 0 is no disturbance and 10 is the worst disturbance you can ever feel how how disturbing does the memory that we're working on feeling now and a lot of times will be at 789 sometimes 10 and we're processing in a session a lot of times 50 minutes session some of us do some [SPEAKER_02]: extended sessions, but a lot of times 40 minutes later, that same memory will ask the same question, and the client will say, oh, it's a zero or one or two, which is such a different experience to think about like a memory that triggers like nine on a zero to 10 scale, and then, you know, just 30 40 minutes later, it's zero one or two.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's an amazing, it really feels like a superpower, and it's, you know, this ability to help people in such a significant way is amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Best job in the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, to see the relief and the, wow, this is like a new experience to feel [SPEAKER_01]: not afraid or something.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's what's really like, I think sometimes people are afraid to do EMDR because they're afraid of what they'll find, but I know that there can also be those kinds of experiences that are also part of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not one thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, Roadtum, do you have anything else that you want to share about your book or your work that we didn't get into yet?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just, I find this like so exciting and hopeful and positive.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it is exciting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for asking that Laura, I think that what I'm most excited about in this book is the last chapter.

[SPEAKER_02]: The last chapter is deliberate practice, which is a method of getting better, method.

[SPEAKER_02]: What this is deliberate practice is what experts in different fields do to become experts.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so athletes and musicians and, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: They all do very different things, but they have a very systematic method to learning.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the learning involves practice.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is what, this is what did the new thing that I bring to the world of EMDR.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have, again.

[SPEAKER_02]: review the research and the literature and every EMDR book out there and nobody talks about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is a method that people use can use to get better at what they do.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if it's trained, therapists can use it in consultations, but consultants can use it in their own consultations.

[SPEAKER_02]: Trainers can use it.

[SPEAKER_02]: because if I'm sitting at a training and I only watch PowerPoint presentation, I'm not going to get better as an EMDR therapist.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I'll get a little better, maybe tiny little bit better.

[SPEAKER_02]: But if I practice what I learn, so let's say I watch a PowerPoint, or I watch a video even better, and then I try to myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then the trainer comes, or my consultant, is coming, and this is how I do my own consultations.

[SPEAKER_02]: and giving me feedback.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then based on that feedback, I'm trying again, and I get more feedback on the little things, on the very, very little thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: I get, I keep getting feedback, that's how I'm going to get better.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that India therapists will, well, in fact, I know, because again, we have this community of India therapists and people do want to get better.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is a really good method to get in better at what we do.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I hope people will implement it into their consultations and trainings and learning.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that makes me have another question.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is you include in that deliberate practice idea experientially receiving EMDR as a clinician too?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know that's usually built into the training to some extent.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I highly, highly recommend just so this is what I'm telling all my consultees first time that get in the are as a client, this is the best way to learn in the are.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can do all the courses and trainings and everything in the world, but if you're not being the client, you're not feeling it.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're not experiencing it as a client.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's all going to be [SPEAKER_02]: definitely get it as a client with a training is kind of like an accelerated EMDR what you're doing or training, you know, and depending on a trainer or some, sometimes you're not really getting to the first things.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that in order to be a better EMDR therapist, definitely get your own EMDR as a client.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just impossible to really do therapy in an embodied way if you haven't experienced what it's like to do that kind of healing work yourself because, you know, your blind spots you will shy away from them.

[SPEAKER_01]: just unconsciously.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if you've worked, you know what they are, then when they come up, you know what's happening, you know, and you have more of a sense of, oh, I have something else I need to give some attention to after this session is done, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I have [SPEAKER_01]: really enjoyed this conversation and I'm so happy that you have written this book.

[SPEAKER_01]: So where can people find you your book?

[SPEAKER_02]: So if people Google the art and science of EMDR they will find either the you know the book is on a Amazon or Barnes and Noble or wherever I don't know target even new guys books that target anyway.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I started this website, I called it the Arkansas VMDR and I have a lot of interviews that I did with, you know, the people that I've found really interesting in the MDR world.

[SPEAKER_02]: So Jamie Mariches there, Dr.

Jamie Marich, Dr.

Real Schwartz, Dr.

Debbie Corn.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've interviewed both of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm big fans of both of them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'll try to be just mentioned.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, and a lot of other people who really are, you know, have a many years of experience, Dr.

Andredobo, and Beckley Force and a Monaco that I mentioned, Jackie Flynn.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is kind of like a free resource, EMDR therapists, and then there's the EMDR learning community, which is [SPEAKER_02]: a closed community, it's free, but it's closed, it's not, it's not on Facebook, it's on independent website and every in the art therapist, even if they're still in training can join and we're kind of learning together, we have a monthly theme and we have weekly challenges, we have giveaways, so we're making a fun and we're also learning together, so we're learning from each other and [SPEAKER_02]: I believe that we can all learn from each other, so it doesn't matter that I'm a consultant, and someone just finished their basic game to our training yesterday.

[SPEAKER_02]: They might have an idea that I never thought about, and it happens all the time, like every day I'm in this community, I'm learning from other members, and it's really fun to learn together.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's beautiful.

[SPEAKER_01]: What an amazing resource.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know it was a free community.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's so great.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like some point I felt I considered changing the name of the community to EMDR nerds, but I'm staying with the EMDR learning community.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some people don't want to identify as a nerd.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're not ready.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know, but we're a great step part of them.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're nerds.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're even the our nerds and we're proud of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm a big trauma nerd myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not an EMDR nerd yet, but big trauma nerds.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I can embrace that too.

[SPEAKER_01]: So is that I love what I love that you said not yet.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's good Laura.

[SPEAKER_01]: So is your website the art and science of mdr.com?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I'd give it kind of like a smart ass kind of name.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's EMD and then the word art, the letter N and the word science.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the art and science.

[SPEAKER_01]: It sounded like that when you said it, but I just thought you were saying it fast.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll get the EMDR ART in science.com.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, correct.

[SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll put that in the show notes too for anyone who's listening and didn't quite catch that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll put it in the show notes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: All of your other stuff too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's great.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love the love what you do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I'm grateful to spend my one day early afternoon with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am too.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so grateful that we connected and I am excited to share this with our audience.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Laura Reagan, and today I'm so happy to have a returning guest for the second time, Rotem Breyer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Rotem, thanks so much for coming back to Therapy Chat today.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me, Laura.

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so eager to get into this conversation that we kind of danced.

[SPEAKER_01]: With talking about last time, you know, we said let's come back and do that, but the audience doesn't even know I know they're going to love it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what we wanted to talk about today is something new you're doing using EMDR and combining that work with psychedelic assisted therapy.

[SPEAKER_01]: So really excited to hear how how you're using this and what you want people to know about it, but before we get into it, let's just start off with you telling our audience a little bit more about who you are and what you do.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I'm Rotem.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am the author of the Art and Sons of EMDR, co-founder of EMDR Denver, I'll practice that, takes an EMDR first approach to treatment.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when we're going to talk about today that I've been doing a lot lately is combining or integrating [SPEAKER_02]: psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and EMDR therapy, and I'm really, really excited to share that with your audience because I've been seeing it results beyond what I thought would be possible in psychotherapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think these two modalities [SPEAKER_02]: are still powerful.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when you combine them together, you get more kind of like the this some is larger than the parts.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's really, really transformative.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's exciting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really excited to hear about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know I always say on the show how excited I am, but I really am.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because one of the things, as you know, I'm not an EMDR therapist and one of the things that I've been kind of following what's going on with psychedelics and, you know, being curious, being kind of cautious and, like, hopeful and also, you know, skeptical of what I'm hearing and because some people are like, [SPEAKER_01]: It's a greatest thing in the world, and other people are like, watch out, it's very dangerous.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I've heard some clients have positive and negative experiences, but additionally, some things that we do, and I'm sure this is probably true with EMDR, because I know it's true with a few other modalities I've worked with.

[SPEAKER_01]: you can have kind of a psychedelic experience without any medicine, so I can only wonder what happens when you put the two together.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, wow, it's like, so as soon as you said you were doing that, I was like, oh my, I need to hear, how does this work?

[SPEAKER_01]: What's it like?

[SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, let's just start off with like, what types of medicines are you using with this or how are you [SPEAKER_02]: Good question.

[SPEAKER_02]: So currently I'm only using ketamine, which is the only legal way to disake up the lack of assisted psychotherapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right now, still side, so I'm from Denver, Colorado.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we are, you know, the state of Colorado is very progressive when it comes to that area.

[SPEAKER_02]: So [SPEAKER_02]: So I've been mushrooms when it comes to psychotherapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's very gray still and I don't want to mess with gray still.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm waiting.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm waiting.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to say patiently, but no, not so patiently.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm waiting for the day in about a year and a half, maybe two years, is that I will be able to use [SPEAKER_02]: the state elected more than they're making a lot of decisions about what it's going to look like.

[SPEAKER_02]: But right now, I can use ketamine, like many other people I was skeptical about ketamine, it has kind of like a bad reputation, special care, it's a club drug.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what we need to remember, Laura, about old psychedelics, and you know, you said that, [SPEAKER_02]: some people have a good and that experiences with psychedelics is that a lot of what happens in a session, it's not even in a therapy session, but with any psychedelics, it's the set in the setting.

[SPEAKER_02]: What is the expectation?

[SPEAKER_02]: What is the therapist expecting?

[SPEAKER_02]: What is the client [SPEAKER_02]: Is it in an office?

[SPEAKER_02]: Is it in a nature outside?

[SPEAKER_02]: Is it done when there's risk of, you know, like a lot of people use psychedelics and, you know, rain or parties when they can potentially get arrested for for having these drugs so they're in all these, you know, kind of like, [SPEAKER_02]: paranoia.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that the fact that we're doing it legally now with prescription.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a prescribed medicine has a lot of effect on a lot of positive effect on what we're doing in psychedelic assisted therapy in general in psychedelic assisted EMDR therapy that I'm going to explain a little bit in a few minutes.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that as always, we need to remember this therapeutic relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's really important and has a lot to do with the set and setting to have strong therapeutic relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: It can be really, really weird for people to take these medicines and then to say with a complete stranger.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really trying to do it with established clients that the therapeutic relationship has already been formed.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, even there is a great mentality.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's to, you know, like I said, I have a VR first approach, but sometimes you hit roadblocks, sometimes you get stuck and I think that with psychedelics, it really helps when we get stuck with certain things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I know that it can take people beyond limitations that they may not, you know, like barriers that they may encounter when they're not using the medicine are removed and that's kind of one of the good and bad things about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess, you know, it's only bad if it feels unsafe to the person and they can't, you know, integrate.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly, you know, so bad trips, for example, don't happen when you do it right, when you do it in an orthopedic setting and the clients are not afraid to go toward [SPEAKER_02]: are things.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a key element.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is one of the correlations that I found with EMDR and psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're not trying to run away from things.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're going towards and I think that a lot of times for people been traumatized, there's a natural inclination to run away from, even if it's not conscious from traumatic memories or experiences, and psychedelics, [SPEAKER_02]: really help people to do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So in two, for instance, in Shapiro, who developed the MDR, talked about dual tension, James Fatman, who is one of the fathers, or, I don't know, maybe Grant and Fathers at this point, I was like, a little consisted of, like, a therapy talked about awareness of polarity, which I think are very similar concepts.

[SPEAKER_02]: when it comes to being able to look at the traumatic experience and also feel it, but also look at it, observe it, not only be in it, because you can learn from it, if that's basically the definition of retraumatization, like if a client just goes back to the trauma, but we're not processing it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is one thing, the other correlation that I find is that both fostered integration of norm networks in the brain.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we have a lot of research in both EMDR and psychedelic [SPEAKER_02]: that doesn't happen in your day-to-day life or even during a regular site.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because therapy, there's a lot of integration of neural networks, and that's, you know, possibly one of the things that we can explain when we're looking inside people getting inside from the work, it may be due to this integration of neural networks in the brain.

[SPEAKER_01]: So wrote him, would you just for someone who's listening, who's really not familiar with integration of neural networks?

[SPEAKER_01]: Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean when you say that?

[SPEAKER_01]: I know this episode's going to get a lot of interest from people.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it might not just be people who have been regular listeners.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, so let me just say before I explain it, [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes looking at a visual can be really, really helpful.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you get Michael Pollen's book, how to change your mind, he has these two images that were done in the UK by Carhartt, Harris, who's done a lot of research on psychedelics.

[SPEAKER_02]: And basically, they created a visual presentation of the brain on placebo and on sales side of mushrooms.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what you see is that there's not only more activity in the brain while people are using psychedelic Catholics, but you see these networks that usually don't fire a distinct time.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's no integration.

[SPEAKER_02]: Usually, if this network is in this site on this side of the brain, this network is [SPEAKER_02]: On the other side of the break, they don't talk to each other, and during being a psychedelic assisted psychotherapy or during a psychedelic experience and during EMDR networks that usually don't fire at the same time, so when I say fire and being electrical activity, they start firing together, and again, that leads to a lot of insights that are not accessible in the day [SPEAKER_02]: normal consciousness, just to give you a little background.

[SPEAKER_02]: So all this Huxley is, I was a philosophy wrote the doors of perception many years ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think in the fifties, and he talked about the reducing volume of consciousness.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's something that we all have and it helps us survive in the day-to-day life, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: We can't be aware of everything we need to focus on certain things, but it hasn't priced too because there's so much that we're missing and when we're using psychedelics, we're really getting access to information that is not accessible in the day-to-day consciousness.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like you had a question and I kind of, I've heard it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you did, because I was asking about, you know, what does it mean when you're talking about integrating neural networks and, and what I'm saying is a real question.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you did.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I do.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's sometimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: What I hear is that like how our cognition goes offline when our trauma reaction is coming up for example and, you know, if you can have your cognition and your trauma information or material accessible or, you know, you can experience the emotion and the memory without being flooded things like that, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to spend just a couple of minutes Laura talking about the history of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that would be great.

[SPEAKER_02]: In in the 50s and 60s, there were a lot, a lot, a lot of studies that showed the efficacy of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: to treat a variety of conditions like alcoholism, depression, OCD, anxiety, and even end of life.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when people in hospice toward the end of their lives, there was a lot of research and then [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to get too much into it, but the government was concerned that people will have independent way of thinking there was not more and people started saying, hey, why should I go in there and fight?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, that didn't align with what the government wanted people to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: So in the late 60s, beginning or early 70s, all these medicines, and I intentionally called the medicines became illegal.

[SPEAKER_02]: So they became schedule one drugs like heroin and methamphetamine and cocaine, even though there were hundreds and hundreds of studies that showed how effective these medicines are.

[SPEAKER_01]: The government was studying it a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: The government was studying it too.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they knew the good effects.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: Did I start studying it?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's really interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's certainly some of the slightly different perspectives.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the CIA was actually studying LSD and how maybe it can be used in, you know, in certain worst situations, but [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can spend a lot of time talking about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think well, I'll just add to what you're saying that there was definitely a racism and social control aspect to why these medicines were made illegal.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, the recordings that have been released about President Nixon's private conversations in the White House very clearly illuminated that it was an intentional effort to [SPEAKER_01]: basically silence the counterculture movement that was anti-war and also to create division between white and black people to prevent civil rights.

[SPEAKER_01]: So just let's put that out there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's an important.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's caused a lot of harm to both of those efforts that we're trying to really do something positive.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if your listeners want to learn more about this, I highly recommend Michael Paulins.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is your mine on plans.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is as opposed to this is your brain on drugs, which was President Nixon's campaign.

[SPEAKER_02]: So Michael Paul on wrote this book.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is your mine on plans.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he talks a lot about what he just [SPEAKER_02]: mentioned in Laura, all this racism, and he, you know, brought it bringing some interviews with people who were advisor, Nixon's advisors, and basically saying, this was not a coincidence.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was intention in there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're not anti-government conspiracy theorists.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is just history.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, no.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is facts.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is based on facts.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we should kind of go back to the psychedelic effect and integration with the MDR.

[SPEAKER_02]: So in there is an extremely effective psychotherapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: In my sphere that I have not seen [SPEAKER_02]: But even when you're sometimes with certain clients, you get stuck in what the psychedelics do in this situation is really helping the client to get into outside of their normal state of consciousness.

[SPEAKER_02]: There were a lot of, and there's more and more research now [SPEAKER_02]: Cosin of psychedelics MDMA, so MDMA is the active ingredient in a drug cold ecstasy or molly, but the pure drug itself is MDMA and there are a lot of research.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's taking a long time for the FDA to approve it, but MDMA is actually considered right through therapy when it comes to post traumatic stress disorder.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what these medicines do is help the client to be outside of their normal.

[SPEAKER_02]: state of consciousness, but as opposed to other medicines, like you know, I'm thinking, has this all right, like prosack, or, you know, anti-xiety medications, or any, any other psychopharmicological treatment, when we're taking these medicines, they're helping us during, you know, during the time that they're in our system, but once we stop taking the medication, we stop taking pro-sack, it's not helpful.

[SPEAKER_02]: any more.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't heal something inside.

[SPEAKER_01]: It just changes you while you're on it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what you see with psychedelics is that they really have this ability to lead to what we call trait change, as opposed to state change.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is, again, another correlation that I see with the EMDR because EMDR is the therapy that leads to trade change.

[SPEAKER_02]: People all who do EMDR and when EMDR doesn't successfully leads to trade change.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not that all the problems are done, but certain memories that were used to be a traumatic or psychological turn into more objective or neutral memories.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's yeah, that's so promising is that it's not it's not just like, you know, it's like if you drink a glass of wine or a beer when you want to feel a little bit more relaxed, it doesn't make you stay relaxed, but when you do these medicines or a treatment like MDR, it makes real change in the brain.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, one of the things that we're sometimes struggling with is to maintain this, this, what we call dual attention, which is necessary for the success of EMDR.

[SPEAKER_02]: You need to be in the memory and you need to observe the memory at the same time.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, again, some people's trauma, and when I say trauma, obviously, I mean also attachment wounds.

[SPEAKER_01]: So those can be harder to get to because they're not horrible.

[SPEAKER_01]: So these right right more even more accessible this way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry to interrupt you.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no, no, no.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a really good point because they've denonverable pieces is a really really important piece.

[SPEAKER_02]: But then I'm going to get to it in a second, but I think that it's important to look at.

[SPEAKER_02]: this dual attention, and how can we help bias get into dual attention?

[SPEAKER_02]: So in the other repeat the way I do it with low dose of ketamine, relatively low dose, people can really get into that state.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, there are different approaches.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like a wild west when it comes to psychedelic assisted psychotherapy right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: There are all these organizations that provide training being and they develop protocols and they don't always consistent with what, you know, so different organizations have different beliefs about what works and what doesn't.

[SPEAKER_02]: I, you know, my guiding principle is always what's best for the clients.

[SPEAKER_02]: The way I do do it is as opposed to giving a high dose of ketamine, which a lot of ketamine treatment for depression is done that way in injectable form, for example, intramuscular.

[SPEAKER_02]: I use sublingual.

[SPEAKER_02]: So people put it under the tongue and again, a relatively low dose of sublingual ketamine.

[SPEAKER_02]: And while they're under the influence of ketamine, we're actually doing the EMDL work.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now that is not possible if you're using higher doses, because in higher doses, [SPEAKER_02]: a more psychedelic effect.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when you use it in a lower dose, it's not getting so intense for the client, they can definitely feel it, but it's not to point that they're kind of get lost in a in a psychedelic and intense psychedelic experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I mean this is really helpful.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to ask you just specifically like how you do it, but I don't want to get ahead of myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I can I can talk more about specifics.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy to talk to that.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is why we're talking so usually I do somewhere between three and four hour sessions.

[SPEAKER_02]: So okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: you can do a 50 minute session that that's not realistic.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I usually spend three to four hours and we're starting with Fine's Land on the floor.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know I have a special mattress and a heavy blanket and they put eye shades on and we put music and they spent the first hour [SPEAKER_02]: relaxing, let me backtrack for a second because before we start that, we're talking about it in tensions, intentions for the session are really important.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we talk about in previous sessions too, you know kind of like planning, but we're also setting the intention at the beginning of the session that we spend about an hour.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, when I said about an hour, it can be 45 minutes, [SPEAKER_02]: they're spending with just letting the medicine do what it does and listening to music and relaxing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then the second part, which again, I would say about an hour, but it can be more it can be less, but we're doing it in the processing, which again, not possible with higher doses, [SPEAKER_02]: But definitely possible would love doses of something will kind of mean.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then when we're processing a lot of times, this is where the magic of EEMDR happens and then we're processing phases.

[SPEAKER_02]: I really, I really love this work because I see people getting to places that they cannot get into without these medicines.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm happy to talk about that more in a minute, but just when I kind of talk about the structure, it's really important to do some integration.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't want to do processing and then.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, we're out of time in a middle processing.

[SPEAKER_02]: We need to take some time to get back, kind of talk about first of all, what did we learn today?

[SPEAKER_02]: What are we taking from it?

[SPEAKER_02]: And then if we need to use some closing regulation techniques before the client goes back home, we do that too.

[SPEAKER_02]: For example, clients are not driving to and from a psychedelic session.

[SPEAKER_02]: So ideally, they get a ride.

[SPEAKER_02]: If they don't get a ride, they take a Uber or lift.

[SPEAKER_02]: But definitely nobody drives.

[SPEAKER_02]: There is a separate informed consent form that they have to sign.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because it is still kind of experimental.

[SPEAKER_02]: treatment, at least, you know, according to the law.

[SPEAKER_02]: Again, I think that the people are already using this treatment, see how effective it is, but the FDA takes a little bit of time to to regulate things.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I mentioned the processing, but it can be really any phase of the MDRs of phase 2 of MDRs preparation, for example, some clients are not able to connect with certain regulations.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we do a lot of resources in phase 2.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're helping clients, you know, connect with, and again, this is very individual, some clients can use yoga poses and some clients can use think about spiritual figures, for example, or supportive figures or nurturing figures, and sometimes in the day to day consciousness, because of this, you know, reducing vault that I mentioned that all this Alex Lee was talking about.

[SPEAKER_02]: Clients are not able to really access that, but when they are in that state, they're really able to heal it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this isn't understanding you mentioned the non-verbal piece Laura.

[SPEAKER_02]: This isn't a deeper understanding than our cognitive logical [SPEAKER_02]: understanding.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is the real transformation.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's where real transformation happens.

[SPEAKER_02]: My couple and used the words ineffable in his books to describe this experience that is really hard to put into words.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's an experience and it's a deeper, deeper level of understanding [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the British talk about non-dualism, so there's no separation of object and subject is no you and me.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just seeing a larger picture of what is going on here and people really get access to these states, which is really exciting.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we have these tools now.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have these [SPEAKER_02]: you know, modern times and you know, how maybe it's not safe to walk down the street.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think being a therapist in 2023 is really exciting that we can do these things.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like a Renaissance, these medicines, which by the way, when you look at [SPEAKER_02]: still cyber, for example, it's been used for hundreds of thousands of years in certain cultures.

[SPEAKER_02]: We, in the West, we only know about it since, you know, 1955, 1956, but it's been used in indigenous cultures as a medicine for many, many years.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the problems that we're running into is research.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the gold standard of the research is double-blind and control studies.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is something that you cannot do with psychedelics.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can be double-blinded because double-blind means that both the subject and the researcher don't know who it took placebo and who took the medicine.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it becomes very, very clear who took the medicine after a relatively short period of time, so you can do these studies using the gold standard of research, but I think that and this is our are.

[SPEAKER_02]: our arrogance as human beings that have this Western culture, that this is the only way that we're looking at things.

[SPEAKER_02]: If it doesn't match this, if it doesn't fit this model, then it's not valid or reliable, and this is not true.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you just need to do it to experiment and to really [SPEAKER_01]: agree agree agree agree agree and I will say to that you know arrogance you're right it's it's a euro centric perspective that what sciences what is the gold standard when people have humans have done their own qualitative research for thousands of years with these medicines and the you know the euro centric view is that's not [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So luckily we do have some evidence because there's more I mentioned, um, car, our terrace from the UK who doesn't lot of research and they're doing a lot of brain scans and they're using, you know, tools like functional MRI when people are under the influence of psychedelics and what we see and this is another correlation that we see [SPEAKER_02]: we see changes into default mode and that work out the brain.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the default mode network is kind of like a hub where different networks are talking with each other.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's [SPEAKER_02]: being considered as the network of the stealth.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when you're not doing anything, when you're not involved in a cognitive test, let's say you're waking up at 2 o'clock in the morning, and you're not doing it, and you're just thinking, [SPEAKER_02]: you tend to think about yourself, about we all have that.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's it's it's the human nature, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: We're we're thinking about ourselves from our own perspective.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when we're involved in a cognitive to ask this network, it's it's not one network.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like a network of networks.

[SPEAKER_02]: tends to slow down to quiet down.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when we see motin EMDR as a result of EMDR, answer conducts is that the default mode network slides down.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it stops being the world stops being about me and myself and my problems and my issues, we can see a bigger picture.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think another interesting correlation is that the both work top down and bottom up at the same place.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, top down from the, you know, our cognitive brain to our.

[SPEAKER_02]: emotional brain, our limbic system, and to the brain stem, and to the body, and all the way down to our body, and up means from the body to the lower parts of the brain, to the limbic system, and to the cognitive brain.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's parallel process.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not one or the other.

[SPEAKER_02]: and both the EMDR and psychedelics really activate these mechanisms.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think one more interesting correlation is also that therapy doesn't stop when the actual therapy session ended.

[SPEAKER_02]: So for example, when I did a psychedelic [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm trying to do it when I'm only doing EMDR without it is to have the Clyde and reflect on things because we're starting something in the brain, the brain, we're activating the brain, and these insights continue.

[SPEAKER_02]: They don't stop when the session ends.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, when it comes to the psychedelic assist EMDR therapy, IDI, [SPEAKER_02]: want my clients to clear the day after that.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're not doing it and going to work after, and you're not even making plans to go out with your friends.

[SPEAKER_02]: You take the time to reflect and journal and think about things and maybe some of these insights will come later.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think one more interesting correlation, Laura, [SPEAKER_02]: getting into the unconscious with both.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think with EMBR, there are the end with psychedelics.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're getting access to places that we don't usually get access in our mind.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's the goal, right, Carl Yodan, said it, that until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life, and you will call it fate.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that it's important that we are getting into this unconscious material and then do something with it, process it.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's my personal bias as, you know, as an Indian orthotherapist and consultant.

[SPEAKER_01]: I agree with you about that too.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this sounds exciting and promising and yeah, I'm really I'm really encouraged about all of the different ways that people are bringing these medicines to healing trauma and really being intentional and, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: Using an integrative approach because, you know, it seems like from what I hear when people have negative experiences with psychedelics when they're trying to use it for healing purposes, the main issue is that lack of integration work.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for bringing it up because I mentioned three parts to a session, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: We're starting with just call me again and listening to music and then we're doing a processing and then we do integration.

[SPEAKER_02]: Another thing that I do with my clients when we're doing these kind of sessions is that next week, even you know, even for clients that usually don't steam me weekly, next week I want to see you because I want to do another integration session [SPEAKER_02]: There's the integration of, all right, we did processing or integrating, but there was the integration of what happens next week that, you know, what, what other insights did you have?

[SPEAKER_02]: And oftentimes people do.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I want to see them the falling week after we're doing psychedelic assist in the India therapy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, and I think that's so valuable and like what you said about when the sessions over the work isn't really over because it's not like you just walk out of the office and hope it's all turned off and you just go back to your life and [SPEAKER_01]: You know, do what you do.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's still, you know, landing and it's still working through and as you move, it's moving through your system and, you know, the insights and even like walking is bilateral processing, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So, right, can can bring that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that a lot of times people have that inescapable this this experience that cannot be.

[SPEAKER_02]: explained in words or language, but even a little time can help integrate it into words or concepts.

[SPEAKER_02]: As opposed to during the therapy during the integration sometimes clients can't really need explain everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot, you know, sometimes it's it's [SPEAKER_02]: It's a visual experience is sometimes it's very strong somatic experiences.

[SPEAKER_02]: Every client is different.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the beauty of the work.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is part of the problem also with developing protocols for these therapies because every client is different and every client will experience in a very, very different way.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not completely against protocols, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: We need to have like, for example, safety protocols.

[SPEAKER_02]: which, by the way, you know, underground guides who are not necessarily therapists, but have been doing this kind of work for decades, they have their, they have their protocols, you know, you're, you're not clearly, you're not having any sexual contact with your clients, but sometimes touch is, [SPEAKER_02]: actually beneficial.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, this is where, you know, our licensing board might not be aggravating with that necessarily, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like touching clients can be, you know, very sensitive subject.

[SPEAKER_02]: but some, a lot of psychedelic guys who've been doing this work see the benefit of holding the client hands when, you know, when clients are going to, you know, these dark places and they need a support.

[SPEAKER_02]: And again, when someone is holding your hand is more than just saying words to you, they're really, they're, are there with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: supporting you on a physical level.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we need to have protocols, we need to have safety protocols, but I think that's, we have, I don't know, in the world of NDR, we have, I think, way too many protocols, and I think them starting to see similar trend and like the ecosystem, like the therapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, some therapists will only treat you if you do six, [SPEAKER_02]: Six of these extended sessions in this panel three weeks or something, it's not, yeah, and like the first of all, who can afford it, right, how can we make it accessible and second of all, it's just not realistic for some people.

[SPEAKER_01]: So some people here, but I can't imagine my nervous system could handle doing six extended sessions in two weeks or three six weeks even yeah, yeah, it's that's my nervous system.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel overwhelmed just imagining that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, and again, we need to think about how we make this treatment accessible to everyone and that's part of the criticism on.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the protocols that were developed for MDMA treatment, again, and which is in process, but right now the protocol says to providers or.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's like eight or 10 hours.

[SPEAKER_02]: So who would be able to paper that to providers, eight or 10 hours.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say they're not extremely expensive.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's still going to be an expensive most people cannot afford.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that that's another thing that we as the community of therapists need to think about how are we making these treatments.

[SPEAKER_02]: Accessible to as many people as possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, that's that's a great point and I've also heard people say I don't know how true this is because I don't know this from my own experience, but I've heard people [SPEAKER_01]: On this podcast, say that when MDMA is approved, that it's likely to be that the medicine, the pill, whatever brand has already put their patent on it, it's going to be, I don't know what form if it's a pill or like whatever, but it's going to be expensive itself for the medicine.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's just the medicine.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so again, I know I've done a lot of research on, you know, ketamine.

[SPEAKER_02]: So ketamine has been around since I think it's 1962.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's been around for a while.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's no pattern on regular ketamine.

[SPEAKER_02]: So now there's a nasal spray ketamine and this is patented.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is a lot more expensive, but this is also proven by some insurances.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, things are getting interesting in that area.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's always going to be companies that are for profits.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think there are already some patents when it comes to sales sidemen, which is crazy because it's a much of the growth in the wild.

[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe that's been used.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as been used for hundreds of not thousands of years, and there are already patents.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know exactly how, but, you know, like with good lawyers and, you know, corporations can find ways to capitalize on that too.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, there's still we know in the psychedelic assistive world.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of things that need to be addressed in terms of equity and the past criminalization and, but, but yes, it's very, very exciting and promising and I'm [SPEAKER_01]: The world that you shared with us today about how you're doing this, and it'll, I agree with you too that, you know, it's such a strange time to be a therapist, and I think being a trauma therapist, it's also an amazing time because we know so much more.

[SPEAKER_01]: And just what, you know, I hope I have 20, 30 more years in the field.

[SPEAKER_01]: What can develop?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the way things have changed over the past 10 years has been.

[SPEAKER_02]: amazing and you know it's only going to be more so hopefully unless something else comes to squash it like Yeah, I think I think this is a really really good and important point because things will probably happen like they did it in the 60s right so [SPEAKER_02]: there was a lot of research in university.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, you know, just kind of like a shady research.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't a lot of research.

[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't a lesson until people started abusing it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And once [SPEAKER_02]: any kind of drug becomes available, there will be people who will abuse it and we need to state again us as a community.

[SPEAKER_02]: We need to think how to minimize that and I think every therapist who uses these medicines [SPEAKER_02]: needs to think about how we can and not go there, how we can prevent that from happening, because that can be really, really hard, because, you know, the media, and again, go back to Nixon, and the media will find one case and a disaster the year of what could potentially happen and ignore the other thousands of people who benefit from these medicines.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we really [SPEAKER_02]: like full of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And thank you for what you're doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so many ways to help people heal from trauma and attachment winds.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's so much need for healing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you're spreading your message through all the training you're doing through your book and hopefully other [SPEAKER_01]: courses and trainings and all that good stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you, Rotem, for what you do and for talking about it with me here on therapy chat.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hope maybe we can talk again sometime in the future and see where things are then.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm always happy to talk to you, Laura.

[SPEAKER_02]: And thank you for what you're doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have to say one more thing that's.

[SPEAKER_02]: Wendy 23 is an exciting time to be at the office not only because we know so much more and we have more and we have asked for studies the technologies but that we can do it together as a community.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know that you have you know and network of therapists that that people don't have to feel alone when doing this work.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's so important that we have a group of people that we connect with.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is the changes everything for us, but the therapists, and if we're not connected with a community, then how can we be there in our best selves for our clients?

[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for what you're doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for saying that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, that's kind of like what I was thinking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know we have to stop, but just last thought that, you know, when you said what an exciting time it is to be a therapist it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's also a time when so many therapists are leaving the field.

[SPEAKER_01]: So so many people are just exhausted burned out overwhelmed feel like they can't do it anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I want [SPEAKER_01]: I deeply care about keeping people who have, who care about this, keeping us being able to do this work because it's not just that we need more therapists, but the knowledge that people have.

[SPEAKER_01]: If someone who's been in the field 10, 20 years and says, I can't do this anymore, I'm gonna go and become a, you know, I'm gonna work in finance.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't blame anybody for making a change, but it's like, don't give up hope there's there is community you have a free community for EMDR therapist.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have a membership paid community for trauma therapists, not EMDR therapists in particular, but just trauma therapists across the board and there are other places where we can gather and whether it's a community membership that you join or just finding people in your local area or even online friends who [SPEAKER_01]: you can relate to.

[SPEAKER_01]: We need that.

[SPEAKER_01]: We need that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Our relational connection and communalism is such an important aspect of being well as a therapist to be able to do the work that we do with clients.

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: We think are not paying enough attention to because we're again going back to our [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's such an important role for to be in a community.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, well, thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad that you and I are in community together now and I'm looking forward to the next time we talk and tell people where they can find all these amazing things that you're doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, if people want to learn about EMDR therapists, a community only for training the EMDR therapists, if you're during the training, we'll let people join.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's EMDR-learning.com or we can just go to the EMDR learning community, and join it's free weekend.

[SPEAKER_02]: amazing events for really good speakers.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really trying to bring that the best speakers in the field of India are in the our Denver.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the DR- Denver.com.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where we do our treatments here.

[SPEAKER_02]: in Denver with my business partner, Sarah Severino, and then the art and size of the MDR is my book, and also the name of my website.

[SPEAKER_02]: I people go to the website, they can actually learn more about, so there's a lot of, there are a lot of interviews I did with experts in the field, and if people want to learn about the book, [SPEAKER_02]: I made Chapter 5, which is EMDR and Mindselness available for a free download on the website on the book page.

[SPEAKER_02]: So people could download that chapter.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll put all those links in the show notes and wrote them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again for sharing your time with me today.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Laura.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to Therapy Chat with your host, Laura Reagan, LCSWC.

[SPEAKER_00]: For more information, please visit Therapy ChatPongCast.com.