What I would encourage any manager to do is to pay attention to where their focus is because I think this defines a lot about what they're, you know, who they are as a manager.

And what they say is probably, you know, I already know that sometimes people try to act as a manager by, you know, having some speeches or some big moments with their team, but where they put their focus is probably a better proxy of who we are as managers.

Welcome to the super managers podcast, where we interview leaders from all walks of life to tease out the habits, thought patterns, learnings and experiences that help them be extraordinary at the fine craft of management.

Our goal is to bring you the lessons in the insights so that you don't have to learn through your own mistakes but so that you can shortcut your way to being a great leader.

This podcast is brought to you by fellow a software platform that helps managers in their teams.

Elaborate on meeting, agendas track action items and turn chaotic meetings into productive work sessions.

Check it out at www.elllo.org app-v.

Hey fellow managers and leaders.

I'm Aiden and I'm the CEO of fellow dot app.

Today's guest is going to me we oh he's the chief product officer at blablacar.

The famous French Online Marketplace for carpooling, that me is Is also the author of a biweekly newsletter called mindful where he writes about leadership design and how the mind works in today's episode clammy.

And I chat about what it means to be intellectually honest.

How disassociating from ideas can help you and your team make better decisions.

We also discuss kiss and why that method could actually be wrong and why it's our responsibility as managers to digest complex problems before.

Just Bring them out to our team last but not least I really enjoyed clemmy's.

Take on.

How does help someone on your team when you don't have the answers to their questions?

If you find this episode helpful, send me a shout out on Twitter.

My handle is at Aidan.

You can tag us on any social media platform with hashtag super managers.

And of course, if you want to join her exclusive community of super managers hang out and talk about management and Leadership content, send us a note to Managers at fellow dot app and we will let you know the next steps.

Now, without further Ado, here's let me Cleo on episode 87 of the super managers podcast.

Let me welcome to the show.

Thank you very much for having me today.

Yeah, very excited to do this with you.

You are located in Paris today, right?

That's correct, I'm living in an entire has, and it's a, like, the night time for me right now.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Thanks for doing this at night, time.

Your time there.

A lot that we were looking forward to chatting with you about you've been at a bunch of different companies, you know, including PayPal and now you're the chief product officer at blablacar.

Before we dive in, I wanted to start out by asking you, do you remember when you first started managing or leading a team and what were some of the early mistakes that you tended to make back then?

So I do I do and actually before managing a team, I The to manage just one person and it was an intern who was which I think was that the the key starting point of my career who was already better than me at what he was doing.

So he was your visual designer and even though he was an intern he was already instantly more talented that I would ever be.

Which I think was very interesting because it forced me to to discover how I could help him, become better, without myself, becoming better at what he was.

So it was really a matter of.

Okay.

So, you know, is there any any framing I can do about?

You know what he's supposed to do?

That would actually help him grow faster than what he would do on his own.

So I think that was the the that was my first manager.

Experience for two years, just managing one intern in a very, very tiny company.

So I have to say that that like that's super interesting to me because I think people realize that like way later on and typically it doesn't work that way, right?

Usually.

You're like the best at what you do.

So you get promoted and you got to do, you know, basically manage a team or other people.

But a like, I'm super impressed that like just the level of I guess self-awareness to be able to say that this guy is actually like From this particular perspective, is actually more advanced than I am.

So, I'm curious like, how did you coach him to get better at what he was doing?

It's funny because I don't really know how I had an intuition today.

It's a big part of how I work and how I managed, you know, other people.

But I had the intuition that he was a very creative mind which is why he needed the opposite of of what we could expect from clear to people that she needed to construct.

Dreams.

So for example, in this is a very young, I had a very vivid memory of him being stuck.

Here, we we needed to create a was a small logo for a small product.

We were building at the time and it was stuck anyways like I cannot find, you know, I cannot find it anyways, very young.

So you didn't have all the tools that he probably develop since then and I was like, okay, so I'm gonna give you a constraint so not only you have to find logo but you have to find it.

It in one hour and upcoming our and actually in this upcoming our you don't need to find one.

You need to find 10 and he did found 10, you know, logo ideas within the hour.

And most of them were crap.

But one of them was interesting and actually that unlocked, you know, the kind of lock locking moment he was into.

And so I think that's that's something that I think was interesting.

Like I didn't have the ability to tell him.

Hey, this is Direction you should dive into because I didn't have his talent, I didn't have the visual eye but it felt like I had the ability to kind of get him unstuck and with was weird or it's weird that it works.

Is that it by putting him in.

To a set of constraints that would force him actually need to overcome the, the kind of, you know, writer's block, or designers block that it wasn't up.

So that was, that was a small Epiphany for me to discover that I was able to help him despite not having his talent not knowing what was the solution and by, you know, creating a frame around his work.

Yeah, that's super interesting.

And I'm very impressed that you were able to figure that out on like your very first stab at management.

The one thing I want to say about this is, I think my lucky moment as a manager was discovering very, very, very early on in my career how I would never be an amazing individual contributor and I think this prompted to things a, I didn't have the syndrome of, you know, being promoted to manager because that was the best performer.

It was not the case and it because I had a strong interest in people, not because I was a great performer as an individual.

It s my admiration for amazing individual contributors, as always been very high since I discovered that I would never be that person.

And so I think in a way whenever I see an individual contributor, that is amazing.

Who wants to become a manager.

I'm always very curious about what's going to happen.

Some people actually managed to make this transformation, but I do think it's a hard one and sometimes we make fun of people that know.

Become managers and because, you know, they're not good at doing things but sometimes being amazing at doing things can actually be a hurdle.

So that's why it's interesting, you know.

Yeah, I think I discovered very early on I would never be an amazing individual computer myself and it's okay.

Yeah.

I mean like I said, it's been shows a lot of I guess self-awareness on your part and I think like a lot of people may not have discovered that like Like many, many years into their career.

So good on you for being there, for doing that.

So, early on, what about some mistakes so far, like, I have this picture of Superstar manager, figure this stuff out early on.

Let's talk about some of the things that you may not have gotten right from from the get-go.

Yeah, that's how long, how long do you have?

So, I mean what I think one of the early mistake that I did was to, to just copy Managers that I had and, and even even to copy, great managers.

That I know I had the luck to work with and they just copy paste things that were doing and then discovering that, even though it makes total sense.

Why are we doing it?

It didn't make sense for me and this this as an example, you know, I remember the way I was at a one of my manager was actually a announcing That someone was getting promoted, you know.

So he would make it a very formal conversation and almost, you know, theatrical and the first time I had to announce someone that they were getting promoted II.

Tried to, you know, I'm buddy, the same tone and I need felt awkward for me for the other person.

It's that ridiculous.

And, and I realize that it works for that manager that I had, it trying to to copy and it didn't work for me.

And so, I think that was an interesting this steak, which is there.

Some best practices in terms of people management, but it doesn't mean that every best practice works for you.

And so there is a, you know, there is a sense of you have to, to make them your own, and some of them will not work for you.

So I do a lot of the mistakes that I did were copying great people.

But without understanding that some of the thing just didn't fit me.

So a lot of those happened along the way, you know, that that's a very, very good.

I guessed it.

Action of it.

I guess my question is the it's really hard to know necessarily like what style will work from you.

I mean maybe for some things you can do maybe you had a manager who is maybe a jerk and you you know you know that you shouldn't be.

But in general sometimes it's hard but you're okay with like the concept of trying different things but just being perceptive of like how it feels and if it feels like the right way for you.

3i lesson that I took from those mistakes was not, it was a mistake to try to copy great people.

I continue to believe that actually this is a, you know, an accelerator to your growth.

You don't have to invent everything on your own so it's more indeed to to be attentive to hide.

Feels while you're doing things and there are things that make sense for someone else and don't make sense for you, they don't feel right and and not to Persist, you know on that path.

That's the feeling.

So so it definitely, you know, do observe, do try to to Copy Source of inspiration because there's it's very likely.

It's some things won't work for you.

But, but at the same time, they need to be on filtering process when you're trying things.

Yeah, one of the, one of the things that's interesting about your background is obviously, you come from the design and product background and one of the things that I suppose You have a lot of visibility to it is the way that teams make decisions that lead to Quality design and quality product.

I'm curious like what if you learned over the course of time in helping your team's produce high quality products and work there is an important ingredient that I would call being intellectually honest.

When I invite this is I think that it's very Hard to distinguish who you are and and what you think, and what you perceive.

And I think it's very important for a team to be able to discuss ideas.

Without this idea, being associated to someone or without, you know, your opinion about an idea, you know, be very attached to yourself.

And so being intellectually honest is the ability to for example, defend and India and being sincerely trying to defend it and be able when, you know, the second after to, you know, since early attack it.

Because, in a way you're just trying to look at this idea from different angles.

And and if you're, if you want to take the best decision, you better make sure that actually all the different perspective on the decision have been looked into and being intellectually honest, it means that if someone is going to attack your idea, You're not going to take it personally, you are going to consider what the person is saying.

You're going to be able actually to piggyback on that person's critic.

And actually you know, actually it's a very interesting point because we didn't discuss this all you know is in anyone else in the room actually you know, you know, thinking that no she dig into this.

So this I think is a, is a key ingredient, which is very hard and the let's say, the underlying ingredient is trust because actually the reason why some people may May you know react a bit defensively is because the level of trust that's in the rule in the team is it makes it hard to distinguish actually, you know, am I being attacked?

Or is it just the idea that I gave that is being attacked?

And so when you have a circle of trust discussing, this distinction is very clear and conversation can be focused on what we're talking about, not about the person who's carrying the piece of the debate, so that I can definitely see, you know, following That kind of protocol will lead to better discussions.

And and like, you said, to being intellectually honest, my question is, is this like how do you teach people to operate in this way?

Like when they get on-boarded into your organization?

Is there like a specific protocols, your you kind of explain to people.

This is how we give feedback during these reviews or like when you get feedback.

Here's like step one, two, three on how to digest.

At that and incorporate it.

Like how do you make sure that like teams exhibit these these behaviors.

I'm just by listening to your question realizing that I think we don't do a great job at onboarding people about this.

So I do think it's a bit too implicit but I think the way we look at it is in in the hiring process with.

This is actually something that we evaluate in a very simple way, which is, you know, if we add someone to present the item to work on a small case study and then too, Present it.

We rarely believe that the quality of the work that is presented is going to be amazing because of the amount of information they had because in your thoughts of time to have to prepare what we're going to evaluate is how they're going to respond to questions, we ask or to strong counter points that we make based on what they came up with.

And their reaction is going to be for us, at will a car, a good indicator of how nature Lee they behave.

And so that, that's, that's The major thing.

And another thing I think you know a lot of people in the in in the company tried to to do is like you start by asking you a question or do you start by making a comment when being exposed to something that you don't really understand.

You don't agree with.

So so you know, if you tell me something that I spent the industry with disagree, with, in my head, am I going to say, hey, this is wrong because of this.

And this I'm going to ask hey Feels like, you know, you have some piece of information that I was not aware of, can you elaborate on that point and, and and that interim, it feels like in both could be in a way, expressing some kind of, you know, we're not on the same page type of impression, but one seems to be more curious about, you know, getting to the bottom of, you know, what's, what was being discussed versus me trying to approach to you.

And hey, you know, we're starting the kind of intellectual fight.

So I think the even the behavior that people display is a way of kind of, you know, establishing this informal culture.

Yeah, I think this is such a key Point ivory-billed to take away which is like before expressing a comment.

You should probably ask a question.

I know I've learned this lesson a lot and it's been, you know, say I've been at a design review and I've said something like, I think we should do this.

But, you know, and and then often I hear Well, actually we did consider that and, you know, and here's why we didn't do that.

And so since I've learned whenever I'm very good about it, to ask the show instead of like making the comment to say something like what other options did we consider before we arrived at this result?

And a lot of times like that's that's a, you know, more respectful question all.

And also it will give you more insight than if you approach it the the other way.

So, So yes, 100% agree with with this notion.

There was a we moved away since then.

But there was a time where the rule of our design critique sessions was the only type of comment you can make our questions.

That's it.

There's no we don't care about what you think.

We, your only purpose in the room is to help the designer who has the courage directly present his half-baked work.

So, you're not here to put the Judgment, you're here to have that question.

Trying to cover the blind spot and one way to cover the blind spot to say hey if you consider this, you know this way or is there something about this particular approach that you took that is making you down so asking questions forces you I think to just take a totally different stance on one conversation that you're having.

Yeah.

And I think this stuff applies to everything, right?

It's not just design reviews.

I mean, it just applies to feedback in general of any type to any type of person.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

No.

I think it goes beyond design.

Absolutely one.

Thing that you and I were just chatting about.

Like, before we hit record was this, I mean, I think you used the words, you actually use the word Obsession about Simplicity and one can imagine like Simplicity and design making sense.

But I think like for you, it's a lot broader than just design and it's almost like a management philosophy.

So I'm curious if you could maybe elaborate on the concept of Simplicity.

Sure.

And I would say it's a, it's a Philosophy.

So there's a, there's a book called essentialism by an officer called Greg McCune from not mispronouncing, his name and I and for me this is one of the best book about Simplicity because I don't think the word Simplicity is using the book.

But for me, it's the definition of Simplicity, which is in any situation.

For me someone who's obsessed about Simplicity is trying to understand what is the essence of what we're talking about, what we're looking at.

At right.

So Simplicity over time, I discovered is not about minimalism in the sense of trying to get 20, you know, to to to to to lower things.

It's about trying to understand know what really matters and what what's the signal and watch the noise.

And so in terms of design an obsession request for Simplicity is true when you are looking at a screen for example, as a in the design critique for example, it's like but what really builds in the screen What is that?

The heart of the screen and actually, what are things that got there for?

Probably good reasons, but actually, you know, they should be treated in a much more softer or maybe somewhere else where they belong.

So it's really, and that's, that's that's for the design part.

But if you apply it to, I don't know when you're having a one-to-one with a direct report, What are you actually trying to do right now?

Today this person and yourself which should be at the heart of your conversation and you can have a one-to-one which is going to be a checklist of an agenda that you may be co.design together and that's fine but think about it for a second like if you know, If that's the most important one you want to, and you're going to have, what should you be talking about?

And and the thing is asking yourself the question, sometimes is going to lead to nowhere.

And sometimes going to realize that you had a ten agenda items and you were not even talking about the 11th one which was the main conversation you should be having.

So forcing yourself to, you know, 200 to wander.

But you know, what is the essence of this moment of this?

Product of this conversation of this relationship.

I think leads to an interesting question.

Now, I developed over time different type of Frameworks to both as these questions and try to answer it.

Yeah, that's my definition of Simplicity is trying to go to the essence.

I think this is awesome.

You know, obviously, like the, there's the 80/20 rule and so a lot of times like there's a small handful of things that like are going to make the most impact.

I am super curious about the the Frameworks you developed.

Like, how do you, how do you remind yourself to do these things across your workday and across your relationships?

So, my, my theory is that, so this is very typical Moto in the tech industry, which is, keep it simple, right?

No.

So actually, it's a, the acronym is kiss.

It's the keep it, simple, stupid.

So, or stupid simple.

I mean there's different variations, but I think this This Moto is totally flown.

It makes the assumption that things start simple which is just not true.

I think things I think the world is complex.

I think any situation is complex, your job is to make it simpler.

So you don't keep things simple.

You make them simple and it and it's a hard fight.

So that's that's how I look at the world.

Basically, that's that's my starting point.

Yeah, I never look at 0 things.

Simple.

Let's touch them or let's protect them, it's more.

Okay.

Things are complex my responsibility as a person and even more as a manager is to make them simpler to digest part of this complexity and to head over to my team.

For example, a simpler problem to solve and by the way right now I'm I'm just quoting another book that is called a good strategy, bad strategy.

And and that says that, you know, the the purpose of any strategy is to do.

Exactly, this is to turn the complexity of a working environment or competitive environment into a set of problems that teams can actually solve.

It, cannot solve everything about the environment.

So you have to digest make some closures and the strategy is going to kind of align everyone brought.

And so for, when I look at the world as a, you know, an infinite number of complexities, then you need tools that are going to help you simplify And so I developed a framework that is called heart and it contains five techniques to simplify anything.

The framework is so you have a few different strategies in order to turn something that is complex into something that's simpler.

My question is like how do you remember to do that?

Because like I think just the essence of what you're saying, makes a lot of sense.

The problem is a lot of times like, you know what I think about myself often times after the fact, I realized that oh, like, you know, the one thing we didn't get time to was, say, the most important thing.

Or if I were to ask you, no questions.

Like, what's the most important thing in marketing right now?

Or what's the most important thing in sales?

Or what's the most important thing in the company?

Like I feel like the process of asking those questions will probably lead to very good outcomes but it's but often you just get stuck in the the world.

And even a thing, where like you're in a meeting, or you're observing a group of people working together.

There's kind of like this, you know, taking a step back and understanding like, what's, what's actually happening here?

Like what's the most important thing in this Dynamic?

Have you figured out like how to get yourself to like ask those questions more often?

Not 20, but there's a couple of techniques, I think that can help.

I mean, So, I think it's a matter of thinking more.

And I think there's two ways you can think I thinking more and thinking better, and there's two ways you can do this.

I think it's silence and writing so the silence.

Can can mean, for example, you're in a meeting.

if you spend the entire meeting talking, you will not be able to be the person.

That is actually taking a step back from the conversation and actually observing the conversation and wondering whether the conversation is going interesting.

Directorate for example, you know, are we talking about the essential topic or are we just, you know, talking about the distraction that someone threw in there?

If you're, you know, to engage in the conversation, you cannot you actually take this perspective, take this step back so that, you know, if you're less trying to Prove to people that you're, you know, an important stakeholder that meeting and so you have to have a point of view on every single thing that is being discussed.

I think it's hard to to do this.

Oh so that's still being comfortable with not saying a word, it's a good way to have this.

Other Sarnia, one at one example, one of my first meeting at the black car, the the two co-founders, gather a small Team to work on an important new product idea that, you know, we had to launch.

And so one of the founder, very talkative one, you know, sets the The Challenge and try to explain why it matters for the company Cataract and yes every person in the room.

So there was no some designers, some Engineers, some sort of product experts, you know, what's the perspective?

What are their first thoughts?

The second co-founder is science is not saying a word.

So, you know, we we listened to everyone talking.

So the engineers say okay, so I think I can go from an architectural standpoint.

We could do it this way.

The design is okay you know I think I can come up with a couple of more cops to imagine how they feel would look like a pro drug is doing okay from a legal standpoint.

I want to check with someone else to understand it.

This isn't something we can do.

Everyone talks except the silent, go comment.

So the other co-founder looks at to him and say, hey, do you have anything to add and he thinks for a second.

He says, Nope.

And the co-founders is mean, come on.

This is a super important topic.

Have a lot of experience.

You know anything you want to share things.

Like, I don't have anything small to share than what has been said.

The self-confidence that you need in order to, you know, be in the room and just say, I don't have anything to add that is smarter than what is being said, is, it's a huge huge scale because when you're able to do this, a when you actually stop talking people, listen to you way more and be turns out that you're able to actually fully listen to the conversation.

Fully you know spotted, there's anything missing In.

So that's one way I think you can do it.

Then the second thing that I mentioned was writing, I took think that writing a lot, taking notes and this is something that you're the one object.

I always carry with me is that my phone has a notebook as a small one, so it's always, you know, in my pocket.

And I do think that, you know, Writing and you know, reviewing what you wrote but not in a lot because you're trying to send a you know meeting notes.

After just because you're trying to digest what has been said that allows you to get the perspective that you may need that.

Maybe you didn't have on the spot.

So maybe sometimes you're not during the conversation able to actually you know, have the distance that you need in order to say, hey are we having the right conversation?

But I see if you're able to spot it as to Words that you know, maybe there's something we missed and so you can come back to it afterwards.

Hey, there, just a quick note before we move on to the next part, if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably already doing one-on-one meetings.

But here's the thing, we all know that one-on-one meetings are the most powerful but at the same time the most misunderstood concept and practice and management.

That's why we've spent over a year, compiling the best information.

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We spent so much time building it and the great news is that it's completely free.

So head on over to fellow dot app, slash blog, to download the definitive guide on one-on-ones, it's there for you, we hope you enjoy it and let us know what you think.

And with that said, let's go back to the interview.

Are you the type of person that also journals from time to time?

So I don't journal in the way I think I picture journals where oh, today, you know, list of what I did, but, but I do spend a lot of time alone with my notebook.

Like, this is how I start my day.

Like, I dropped my kids to school and then I sit in a cafe and I have nothing with me.

But this is not book the way I I try to pay attention to what has my attention?

So I try to think, hey what's bothering me right now and I try to write it down and they okay with why is it bothering actually so much?

And I try to write it down and they you know, you know, what could I do about it and I read it down.

So it's I would struggle to call this journaling.

It feels perform any better.

We're kind of a aided problem solving.

So, you know, instead of just relying on my brain which is limited in many ways.

So I just try to have this, you know, tool that allows me to put her foot down and then to look from a distance at that thought and kind of being more to, you know, add to it or to criticize it or to discard it.

And so, this is why I think writing is a, it's an amazing tool.

If you use it as a way to deepen, your, your level of thinking, so, is it, is it journaling?

I don't know.

But I do write a lot for myself with no other purpose than just You know, going deeper into my line of thought in particular, I wanted to zoom in on what you said, which is the sometimes writing things will allow you to look back on conversations and oftentimes a lot of the good ideas are like, the new ways of looking at things will come after and maybe not during, and so, yeah, anything that can Aid with that will be a big deal.

And I think it's also true that a lot of us like, are very eager.

Eager to start talking and discussing as opposed to being silent and on that note of talking a lot, there is a mistake that you have seen a lot of people do and a lot of younger managers do, which is this concept of like, managers adding value by bringing solutions to problems whenever they see that I'm curious like, what is the, what is the approach that you recommend that, that managers?

You take when someone does come to them with a problem.

First, I think this is the I think the right behavior is way easier when you're sincerely ignorant about the solution, like you don't even have any idea solution, let alone, the right solution, right?

So so that's if you want to practice.

I think it's easier to practice in a situation where you really don't have the answer and so try to help About people that are not within your own domain of expertise.

So any kind of throw you can do this through, you know, mentoring people, or just know reaching out to people that maybe are younger than you.

So you have some experience to bring to them on, let's say some credibility.

But the truth is it is very unlikely that you have the answer to their problems.

And so I think, you know, that's, that's the question as to.

So how can you help someone even though you don't have the answer and you, The expertise that could be useful to the.

For me, it's very obvious that what you're bringing to any person in that situation is precisely to not be the person that is facing the problem, which means you have the ability to question the person's approach.

You have the ability to ping pong with that person.

So hey you just said this, you know, can you elaborate elaborate a bit more?

It's funny.

You said this, but actually five minutes ago, you said something that seems a little contradictory.

Can you explain why it can be about?

But you know, you're saying that, you know, you really care about this particular thing, but it feels like everything we're talking about is something else, you know, which one is it?

So I think what you are, what you can do is try to have a A mix of full, the person needs to know that you care like you really want to, you know, you're on her side and at the same time, being very skeptical, whatever the person is saying.

And it's a, it's a hard balance to find but kind of, you know, II really want to help you out, but I'm going to deconstruct what you're telling me without adding any particular knowledge.

Just rephrasing what you're saying and and sharing it with you and see.

It helps you see it in a different light and I think that's that's that's a good, it's a bit generic, but I think it's, you know, it's it needs by definition to be generic approach because you're not bringing domain expertise.

So it's like food attention.

You're fully listening and you're trying to spot what seems to be the flood part of the reasoning and then to, you know, phrase it as a question as we said before.

So that, hey, maybe you You know, there is something to dig into.

Yeah, I think, you know, I think this is so interesting.

I mean, I love the, you said, specifically, like you have to show that you care while at the same time, being skeptical.

And and I agree that might be a hard balance, but it, but I totally understand.

It's like the place in between those two things and it's very interesting what you said, which was the sure you might have a solution in mind or sure.

You might be say context or where, but I think like the super valuable thing like you You said is you have the outsider's perspective which is why I like a lot of times even you know for ourselves.

I find it's hard for me to solve my own problems because you're just like to in it and you're just not seeing something super obvious.

And oftentimes like one right question will get, you know, you to be able to actually come to the solution.

So the outsider perspective is super valuable, I fine, I think the outside the perspective also, Allows you actually forces the person to explain the problem that going through, which some time alone is going to be the path to the solution.

So you stink, you understand the problem that is in your head but then you need to explain it to someone who's not you and by explaining you're like, oh but wait, actually I'm not just by explaining, I realize that I do my my reasoning doesn't make.

Any sense but I just discovered it by spending to someone that needed more context.

So but but but you cannot do this on your own.

So that's why, you know the act of writing kind of you know, does this.

But if you don't have this habit of writing or if it's not enough, having someone who's really listening to you is forcing you to explain your own problems in, probably a better way than you were doing to yourself and that can be helpful to.

So even just this, but you have to the person needs to see that you're really Listening and you really want to understand because if it's, you know, you're just a passive listener.

That is actually, you know, thinking about the guy, you know, what do I need to make in terms of groceries tonight?

Then then it will not create aspect.

Yeah.

I think I think that makes a lot of sense.

The other topic that I also wanted to ask you about was just on hiring.

So you have something called an expectation map with that for you to explain like, what, what is it An expectation map when you start a new job.

There is whether, you know it or not there is a set of expectation that people that have decided to hire you have for you.

So they expect I mean there's a lot, there's a problem, there's a hole somewhere and they expect you sorry to to kind of feel fix this thing or two, you know, fill this hole.

The thing is, this set of expectation is unlikely to be clear and not that anyone is trying to hide it from you, but it's likely that it's going to be phrased in either implicit ways or in contradictory way.

So actually, you're the set of expectation that be coming from different people.

So if the job description, you're going to get is going to be very generic.

And it's going to be the probably the same that they would have for any person into a similar type of role than the one you're dive into.

Even though you're hired for a specific role is no specific time.

And so the expectation and I call it the map because you know this is something that you have to map out.

You have to put extra effort into making this fuzzy set of expectation into A document like this is exactly what people are expecting me to do.

And this is not something that I invented.

Like, there's a book called The First 90 days which basically is for me, is a Bible in terms of how, you know, you should onboard yourself and your job and, and this, this book is is helping you to ask the right question, that will help you fill in this expectations map.

For example, it's very thing.

I hate it's clarifying.

What are the conversation that you should have with your manager after you've been hired?

Of course you're going to have all of those conversation trying to see if you're a good fit.

But after you're hired there's a set of expectation that you need to really clarify about, you know.

But where do we see in the company stands right now?

And you know what is expected of me in the upcoming 90 days and what is the status of the team that I enjoy?

Being in terms of mood or efficiency or couple of conversation that you're going to usually think you're having, but in a very casual way.

And the expectation map is trying to, you know, make you do this in a much more formal way.

For example, another best practice from the book is saying the first time the first time you meet every single person in the company you should ask them.

Exactly the same kind of questions.

Because for example, imagine I asked, you know, 10 people in the company.

Can you explain to me, what is the company strategy?

Imagine I get 10 different answers.

That's a very different information that if I get 10 times, the sentencer and both can happen.

And there's nothing dramatic about either situation.

But you want to understand what company you're stepping into.

And, for example, if you have 10 different answers, well, you know, for sure that you don't have a company that is aligned around that.

He's what they call a surgeon, maybe they're relying on something else and that's okay.

But you need to understand this, maybe they're not aligned at.

That's what may be, okay.

But you also need to understand this, but all those things are things that usually you discover, you know, too late and expectations map is just a document trying to formalize very explicitly.

What just what people expect from you not see, you know, in theoretical terms but in very concrete terms.

Yeah, I know it.

It's awesome.

You mentioned the, the first 90 days.

We had the author, Michael Watkins on the podcast.

I love his approach.

He's very contrarian.

He's one of like the most contrarian people I've ever spoken to.

So you have for the audience if you want to check out that episode as well on the expectations map.

I did want to ask you.

So do you actually take this and like give it to people on their start date?

No, I do.

I think a I think this is something that You as a new employee.

need to discover the thing is, if I was, if I as a manager I was to give That to the person.

The truth is, I would actually only give I would actually give my expectations but I am, my expectations are and we actually a short amount of information compared to other person used to be aware of.

So, for example, imagine I don't know, imagine the other direct reports hate me as a manager.

Right.

As a new employee, your manager is never going to tell you that by definition because he's not aware or it's not a collaboration future.

So, this is so many things that, you know, you as a new employee in your position, you need to do a 360 degree, you know, an investigation about what you're stepping into to really understand what's the situation.

So, I don't think it's something that can be given to you.

I think it's something that you have to have a type of framework for something days.

Isn't for me, the best for me.

We found to go through this investigation and as question, make observations, another tool from the book is a, you know a set of questions weekly check-in at the end of every week, you ask yourself questions like you know what bottom need is week, what opportunity that I missed it?

You should ask yourself questions that are just forcing you to really reflect on what's Happening.

And the reason why I was talking about the expectations map is particular to make it an opposition.

Because the question that was being asked, when I was thinking about this was, hey, I'm being hired as a new head of design, what do, what am I supposed to do?

As a head of design?

And I was my thinking was, this is the, this is the flawed way of answering the question.

Like, who cares, when a typical head of design is supposed to do?

The key question is, what are you supposed to do in this particular role?

Maybe Design is supposed to come up with great ideas in theory, but maybe in your case, this is not what you expected on.

And you're going to fail, if you try to produce great ideas that actually no one cares about.

So, the expectations map is trying to move away from how this is, how I'm a chief product officer.

So this is I'm in charge of the roadmap.

Maybe, maybe not.

It depends on your particular context.

So, that's what I firmly the dude.

The expectation that needs to come from the ground up, not being thrown down by By either what other people do not the companies, or what your manager wrote as a drum description.

Yeah, no, that's awesome.

And I think that's a great way to put it.

We have talked about a bunch of different topics.

Now, like we talked about being intellectually honest, you know, concept of essentialism and also Simplicity using silence and writing as a tool kit being carrying, but being skeptical, so many different concepts, and I know we're getting.

The time one thing that the one question that we like to end with is, for all the managers and leaders out there constantly looking to get better at their craft, what tips, tricks or parting words of wisdom, would you like to leave them with?

And I will say that like and I would love to pre to tell us about this as well as I know you have a newsletter on sub stock that pretty to also like tell people how How they can get to it, and what kind of things you write about.

So the newsletter is called Mind, food F.

Oo, LED mindful that subsided come.

And what is the reason why I chose this name is because it's about what I try to write about is how our mind fools us.

And so it's just, you know, my own observation about you know what you Can the better, you understand how your brain works the better.

You can actually, you know, make usually basically, but if not, you know, in a very scientific way more in a, you know, a very down-to-earth way.

And so I do talk a lot about the many topics that we covered today.

I land on one less book as you can guess.

You know, I learned through Reading there's a book from 15 years ago called wrapped, And and there's a quote that never left me since then the book starts with this quote and basically says, your life is the sum of what you focus on.

So your focus is actually, you know what, you pay attention to is.

Actually the one thing that, you know, defines everything else and it's to waiting to protect, you know, this thing.

The first one is if you focus on something, it automatically ultimately is going to, you know, become a bigger part of your life.

Just because if you focus on on, becoming a good manager, then the manager Possibility of becoming a bigger part of your life.

So just just because if you focus on something is going to it's going to grow.

And the second part of the integration of this sentence is if you decide to pay attention to something or not, even though in reality, it still exists.

If you decide to ignore it, it will not become part of your reality or if you decide to focus on great events, they're going to actually you know, your life is going to be a very happy life.

And so what I would encourage any manager to to do, is to pay attention to where their focus.

Is because I think this defines a lot about what they're, you know, who they are as a manager.

And what they say is probably, you know, I only know that sometimes people try to act as a manager by, you know, having some speeches or some big moments with their team, but where they put their focus is probably a better proxy of who they are as managers, that that's something I would pay attention to As a matter.

What, where do you where do you spend your focus?

And are you in line with that?

Are you happy with that?

That's great advice and great place to end it.

Let me thanks so much for doing this.

Thank you so much for plastic conversation and thanks a lot for the preparation behind it and that's it for today.

Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of the super managers podcast.

You can find the show notes and transcript at www.fafsa.gov / super managers.

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