Curiosity and empathy are two really powerful ways to enter a conversation because curiosity is being open and being open to whatever your assumptions are might be wrong.

And empathy is just having that that appreciation for people is humans, welcome to the super managers podcast, where we interview leaders from all walks of life to tease out the habits, thought patterns, learnings and experiences that help them be extraordinary.

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Hey, fellow managers and leaders, I'm Eden and I'm the CEO fellow dot app.

Today's guest is Karen Eber.

She's a passionate leader with over 20 years of experience at companies like HP Deloitte and General Electric where she held positions such as head of culture, Chief learning officer and head of leadership development.

In today's episode, Karen explains why most new managers default to the Management's.

Solve, the makes them feel comfortable instead of taking into consideration what their team may need.

We also talked about the power of Storytelling how it can shape culture and the Neuroscience behind, why our brains love a good story.

Lastly, caring gave us insight and how we can become more consistent leaders through self-reflection and how to give people meaningful recognition.

Nishan at work.

If you found this episode helpful to your leadership Journey, let us know by using the hashtag super managers on social media and giving us a five star review on the podcast app of your choice.

Now, without further Ado, here's Karen Eber on episode, 59 of the super managers podcast.

Karen.

Welcome to the show.

Thank you, happy to be here.

I'm very excited to dig in with you.

You've had a 20 plus your leadership career in a bunch of very well-known companies actually as head of culture and head of leadership development at companies like HP, deloix General Electric.

And today you're a CEO at Eber leadership group, but before we dive in, I want it to kind of rewind and ask you about, you know, in your history.

And your Your career has there been a most favorable or memorable boss and why probably tear answers?

The first one is now because it's me so I can blame or celebrate my boss today but when I think back to my corporate there was a person that created a little specifically for me and for my strengths and it was the best situation because she saw a need in helping an organization chip culture.

That was facing some real challenges and she saw that I could do it and came to me and said, I want to build this for you and give you run way to make this happen and what a vote of confidence for.

I see this in you and I believe in you and let's go do great things.

So that was pretty amazing.

Oh, that's amazing.

Amazing.

And so, was that right off the bat or, you know, when you first started in that position, I had been in other position.

Many and she came to me and said, I think we have this need and I would love for you to.

Alright, so she had known me and I had been in the company for a few years.

Okay, ya know that that's awesome.

And so, when did you first start leading a team and and what were some of the early mistakes that you might have made?

I started in graduate school.

I went to graduate school right after I finished my undergrad and you're put in teamwork and there and I ended up in charge of this team with people that were I was my parents age and so I struggled with a lot of things.

I think people normally do like, managing it to detailed a level or trying to tell people what to do and, and missed really harnessing where they're at their best or understanding, how to give them the space to flourish.

And fortunately, they told me, which is such a gift, like, right off.

They came to me and said, I'd no, no.

Let's talk about different ways to do this or this isn't working for me and I was able to learn and make shifts and recognize weaving isn't about what's most comfortable for you.

It's about it is best for your your employees and your team's.

How long did it take for you to realize that her for the team to to bring that up?

It was pretty immediate and different settings.

You know, in the graduate school projects, you're constantly communicating and looking at things and talking about what works and doesn't Work.

And there's a little bit of freedom and having some blank conversations.

So I think that was really helpful early in my career.

I can think of a situation where I was coaching, this team of men that were internationally dispersed and they were going to develop training for the organization.

They were technical experts and this one person had put together, something that was kind of like off-color, it wasn't.

Ain't really appropriate humor and he just wasn't resonating and I was nervous to give him the feedback.

So I did what I thought was right at the time I sat down and I wrote a really thoughtful email that reviewed the instruction and point it out.

Different suggestions for how to do it and cautioned him on his humor and said I don't necessarily think this is going to come across the way you intend and I sent it to him in an email which of course now I cringe at and thing like why did you do That.

But I did it because I was trying to approach it from the way that was most comfortable for me because I was nervous about the conversation, I didn't want stop to think, what does he need?

What is he going to hear about 5 seconds?

After I press, send my phone rings and it is this this man Michael calling me and I said you know I know that I just sent you a message.

I don't have time to talk right now but we're going to be talking tomorrow.

We've got time scheduled.

I'll talk to you then.

And as I'm in the process is saying that he hangs up on me.

Whoa, until my instinct in the moment was like, what a jerk.

Why would you do that?

That's so awful.

And then when I stepped away, I realized I know I was in the wrong there because I approach this differently.

So I have been really fortunate through reflection and through real-time things, like people hanging up on me to recognize.

I go there's different ways to do this and maybe you want to rethink how you approach him.

Wow, what an incredible story like that, that is super interesting.

So if we were to kind of like rewind, how would you have it sounds like you would have just saved it for the conversation but how might you have come to that realization if you hadn't hung up on me?

Well, no, no.

I mean, so for example, I mean now you understand that, you know, maybe we should have waited for the conversation but I'm just thinking like, what kind of questions should one ask of themselves before communicating feedback like that.

So that like maybe you do it right from the get-go?

Yeah, I mean, I think Think the thing about feedback is we never want to hurt, someone's feelings and feedback shouldn't be about the person, it should be about the work.

It's easy to offer suggestions on the work but we don't want to hurt someone's feelings.

And we tend to then think about like how do I do this in the way?

That is the least awkward.

I find so many leaders avoid conversations.

They don't know where they're going to go be, they want to have some problems, they want to have ways to navigate it and without that, they default to what Is most comfortable for them.

So I think the first thing to do in any moment where you have to give feedback is recognized, like, what is this person need to hear and how do I frame it?

Is my experience of their behavior or action or project or whatever this specific thing is, how do you I think about what they need and how I deliver in the way that's most helpful.

I think we often think of it, I am I going to approach this conversation instead of thinking of the other person.

So If you start there and you start to think about what they need and how you can unwind from it that leads to a more successful conversation.

Yeah.

I think that makes a lot of sense.

And so in this case like what did this person need?

Do you think quite a bit obviously in the end he ended up moving off the project because of all the concerns that I think if I had approached him differently and said, you know, I want you to be successful here.

And I think that what you're intending Isn't how people are experiencing you.

So let's talk about how we can make some shifts that you can accomplish what you're trying to do.

I think, if I showed up more on his side instead of this Sublime that I created, it could have been a different place or I could have just gone and been curious and say, hey, look to treasure, your instruction, tell me what you're intending, tell me what you want, that experience to be.

And then as he talks about it, if I have a different perspective or experience I could say, well that's interesting because that's not where I went first.

First curiosity and empathy are two really powerful ways to enter a conversation because curiosity is being open and being open to whatever your assumptions are might be wrong.

And empathy is just having that that appreciation for people is humans and that we all have something to offer and most people are coming to work, trying to do a good job.

Not trying to be a jerk, not trying to be mean and so you can detangle yourself from the heavy.

Then and be in that spot.

It can be really rich conversations but you have to create that safe environment.

Yeah, I mean, what a night and day difference between like, you know, first approach and the second approach, the second approach is like very super manager asked if I say so.

And so it's interesting just this concept of empathy and curiosity and just always leading with that.

I think that's a that's a really incredible.

Well, lesson that one can walk away with.

So very like a topic that you have been talking about a lot and you actually have a TED talk about this which is about storytelling.

And as it relates to storytelling, you've said in the past that working with leaders, you found that.

They tend to be allergic to telling stories.

Why do you think that is?

It's almost the same thing as feedback.

Like, I think that if you have not used storytelling or haven't built those muscles yourself and you see someone do it.

Well, you think that they have like harvested this perfected story out of the ground and haven't done anything to work on it.

And that feels overwhelming and intimidating.

Storytelling is a skill and it's one that you take ideas and fragments and prompts and you put them together to follow a formula and a structure and follow what?

We understand in Neuroscience, to really engage the audience and you can learn how to do that.

And I think for so many people without understanding one, there are some super cool things to happen to our brains and we tell stories with empathy and trust and and the impact that it have and the way at the neural chemicals actually of us changed.

Like there's this thought of I can't do that or there's this thought that data are what made me credible and a story is just To fluffy.

And in reality, the story is what's guiding you through your to a common understanding, even with data.

So it's a little bit of skill and knowledge, and a little bit of a misconception that our credibility comes from different places.

Yeah, that's interesting issue and I can totally see that especially in society.

As data has become more and more important, I can see that people would want to use more of that versus just telling a great story.

Tory who have you seen like what kind of people tend to do this really well?

Like is it a skill that people are just naturally born with or is this something that one can actually work on?

You can absolutely learn it.

In fact, I'm in the process of writing a book on this very thing and like how do you learn how to do this?

Because it's something that can become accessible.

The the thing to think about with the data before I answer the ways, The beauty this.

Well when you listen to, someone go through data, whether it's Excel or PowerPoint row by row, you are thinking, like, do I trust what they're saying?

Do I do, I trust the data and I've seen so many meetings where the discussion just goes in a completely different direction, debating the source of the data, the quality of the data, the understanding of the data.

And instead of getting to a discussion of what data-informed decisions do we want to make?

It's this endless debate about the thing.

That we think makes us credible and what a story it does is it takes you through to a common understanding of anything.

And so I think people have to do this, well, do a couple of things, they recognize that their steps to it and that they're not going to just do this five minutes before they have to give a presentation.

I mean, they might have some in their back pocket that they've worked on but that just like you spend a good bit of time working on slides or whatever.

You're using to present, you have to spend a bit of time working.

On the story because you have to work through the process to make sure am I really building the idea and the takeaway that I want four people have I done this in a way that is going to really lean into the neuroscience and build and release tension and capture their attention.

You know, have I really thought through the audience?

I'm trying to influence.

And so I think it's the people that do this well, leave themselves some time to work through that and make sure they're getting the greatest.

Ending, but anyone can learn this in anyone can do it.

Yeah, let me show you've mentioned, you're a scientist, a few times.

Now, what are some elements or like, what's an example of something that you can do in this story?

That also takes advantage of the Neuroscience.

So just by nature of telling a story, if you tell a great story, meaning one that is going to build and release tension which is going to stop the brain from anticipating and filling in gaps.

And one that builds an It is going to build empathy in The Listener.

So as you tell me a story, I'm immediately going to have more empathy for you and feel behind it towards you because you're sharing something.

Even if it's not a personal story, there's just we respond to vulnerability and that's part of what happens.

And so just by nature of a great story, I gain empathy and neurologically oxytocin is released in my brain, which is of course, the bonding chemical the feel-good chemical and the The more oxytocin that's released.

The more trust is actually built between people there have been studies that have shown stories, that ignite a good boost of oxytocin lead to more trusting behaviors.

So right away, if you are trying to establish psychological safety or build trust using a story does that because we're responding to the vulnerability were responding to the understanding and we chemically become altered.

Yeah.

So this is really interesting, so tactically speaking, when it comes to, you know, your role as a manager or leader, how often are you telling stories?

Is this whenever, you know, there's a presentation and you want to get a point across, or is this like day-to-day and every meeting?

How often are you doing this?

It's an important question because I think people feel like they're going to over you story is and I've actually not come across someone that has over you stories.

See, people that have overused.

Bad story is like the uncle with the holiday table, that just tells the same story over and over, right, there are definitely company, corporate business, equivalents of people that are telling stories that are about themselves and don't factor in the audience or poorly told stories and that's not helpful.

But apart from that, it's really whenever you feel, there's a moment to create better understanding so it could be A presentation, it could be when your business is going through a change or when you're trying to capture attention.

When the social distancing are ago, I was working with a CEO and a multinational company that all the sudden, of course, like many his company was now working virtually and he was wanting to really connect with them.

And think about, like, how do we keep community and spirit and culture.

And so every week I worked with him on what But the communication was and really what the story was that he was going to send in a varied each week.

Some weeks they needed to talk about just trust because of all the changes going on in the world.

Some of it needed to be about stability the company and a belief that they would all have their jobs other weeks.

It was about navigating change.

So like, and that case, every communication he sent had a story element to it.

And it worked, I'd say, it's looking for a moment where It is Data or an idea or a presentation.

You have the opportunity to connect with your audience and build new thinking.

A story is a great way to do it and it doesn't have to be.

Lengthy story can be very short, it could be several minutes long.

I wonder if we can dive into an example.

Now, it could be with this person that with this CEO, that you were working with like an example story that he told or some other situation, where you've seen, like a really great story.

I made all the difference.

Is there something that comes to mind that you've witnessed or maybe a story that you've told that really made the difference and had the like, a big impact story that keeps being told back to me, which that's always a good sign.

How do you know if a story resonates is when people tell it back to you or they described as story is actually the one, I started the Ted talk with and it's about, it's a true story.

It's about this woman Maria, that goes into an elevator at work and She's going to press the button.

Her phone falls out of her hand and go straight down the Elevator Shaft and follows through the floors to the basement of the building.

Wow.

So imagine that right like and it wasn't just your phone.

It was she was of a certain age where she carried a phone wallet.

So it was credit cards.

Driver's license, her badge, like she literally couldn't leave where she was, she couldn't go to her office.

She couldn't go anywhere and she stood Frozen, like, what do you do?

Amazingly.

The the phone survived this three-story fall was an Incipio phone case.

If anybody is wondering, because I always fascinated after that, she painted on her, I her, I watch and saw that it worked.

So she went to the front desk, to talk, to the guard, to try to get ideas of what's possible.

And the thing about Maria is she is this person that just knows like your birthday and your last vacation and your favorite food?

And and if you have children, And like, where they are in school.

And it's not, because she's this nosy person, she just one of these people, they genuinely cares and takes time to stop and connect with everyone.

And so she goes to talk to the security guard and he tells her it's going to be really expensive.

They have to shut down all the elevators for the building, Colin a service call.

I get someone to go down there and they have to charge her for it.

And at this point she's weighing the cost of replacing driver's license, credit cards that everything phone.

With the cost of this price and she said, you know, get a quote and if it's under $250, do it.

Okay.

And we I'm there.

So I take her up to her office, get her in there and as we get settled, the phone rings and it's this guard Ray and he tells her he was realizing that the elevators were due for inspection in about three weeks and he was going to call it in that day.

And part of the inspection was they were going to have to shut down all.

Elevators.

Go down into the basement and they would be able to get her phone back for free and he wouldn't charge or anything, which is amazing.

He did not have to do that.

I mean he would have helped anybody, but he went above and beyond because she's this person that would stop every day and talk to him.

Whereas most people would barely do the polite, wave, she knew all about him because she genuinely cared.

So, the seam Davis happens, I'm reading this article in the New York Times about Walter Ben and Jerry, who is the CEO?

Oh, of Charles Schwab and he's just driving a lesson.

He learned in his career, his last exam of his University career, he's going in 4.0 average business class, expecting to a set, gets him there and the instructor says on your piece of paper is your exam, go ahead and turn it over when they do the papers blank and they're all looking around like what is going on?

And the instructor says, I've taught you everything that you need to know about business.

Accept this most important thing.

What is the name of the person that clean this room?

And he failed the exam.

He had seen her, he had his exchange pleasantries with her, but he never asked her name.

And he said her name was Donny, and he vowed to know her.

He vowed to know, all the Dotty's and his life going forward.

And he always did and told this story when I was working at General, Electric is an example of, as leaders If people want to steal seem, they want to feel that in valued and the most important thing you can do as a leader, it's just how people feel seen and connect with them costs.

Nothing but time and attention and the impact of that is so powerful and story connects with people.

I think because we can all imagine dropping our phone and we can imagine there are Dotty's in our life that we should know and we perhaps don't know or we did take Time to know.

So I have just found that people respond to that story because even if that hasn't happened to them, they see themselves in it.

Yeah, I mean, what an incredible story you definitely had me, you know, anticipating what would happen next and definitely felt probably all of the, you know, the the the mental symptoms, you know, all the things that you were talking about the oxytocin and everything else.

And so I guess one question that I I have is like let's think about like a practical example of this.

So say you had a leader that was, you know, very focused on, you know, the day-to-day and the operations and say wasn't very empathetic and like maybe didn't know all the different people in the organization and like people felt unseen and and so on and so forth, I would imagine if we went to such a leader and said that hey, you know, you're not doing a great job of, you know, recognizing or seeing people.

And so on so far, I would imagine that person would probably be very defensive or, you know, most people would be defensive if if we told that to them.

Yeah.

Or if you say, here's the research of, you know, 73% of Engagement and comes from interactions or something like that.

Like, you can see these things that you potentially high-risk them, not remembering or not connecting with it, but what was story does is it shows you and it doesn't tell you and it, lets you You put your own meeting in there because I have my idea that I want to build when I'm telling the story but is the audience, you're going to have your own understanding based on your own experiences and your own reflection as you're listening to it of what that means for you and what you want to do.

Yeah.

So you have been, you know, General Electric was 90,000 employees.

I mean, you know, this is a very large company and you were General Electric's head of culture, I mean, you you With people from all different cultures everywhere.

Do you find that when it comes to storytelling?

Are we just generally not as good at it at in North America?

I find that.

Like maybe we have a more direct culture.

Is that a factor at all?

Or do you find that in other cultures?

They lean more heavily on stories?

I think most people avoided or have an opportunity to use it more, and it doesn't matter where people are in the world or the generation they come from.

Amor, how they identify what their pronouns are.

Like the stories resonate even if you've never experienced it, I told a story about a service dog, when I was at General Electric because part of how I tried to shape culture for the business, I always in was using storytelling for all the reasons we said to reinforce what's valued and let people make their own decisions.

And I was sharing a story about a service dog.

And I started getting mail from all over the world from people.

Never met before.

Sending me photos of their dogs and connecting with it.

I don't find that any one region is better or worse at it.

I think there's different levels of comfort and vulnerability in different cultures and whether that impacts the story, they tell their they use a personal story but it's more.

I think just the we're drilled on skills that feel like project management or budgeting Or things that are harder skills and things that get to that influence of communication just aren't taught as frequently.

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And with that said, let's go back to the interview.

So this is very interesting, you know, as it relates to culture because I find that.

I mean one of the things that you said just earlier was that I think it's a good story because many people have told it back to me and I wondered that you know that virality of stories in general can you really help Define a culture?

So you know things may be events that happened or like we're their stories for example that other stories that maybe the leadership of General Electric or Yourself used to really cement certain values or principles throughout the company.

I think a story that anyone can tell and it's so powerful when you do, are these stories of great in any company and what I mean by that is the heroes and the company, there's always the folklore stories of the people that did amazing things, or the projects that achieved amazing things.

But, even down to your pupil leader level, The stories of what a great people leader is and what they're doing and what that looks like.

You know, every time I've done work with a team, at some point, the leader will pull me aside and they'll say you you do a lot of work with teams.

How am I doing?

How are we doing like help me understand compared to great what that looks like?

And so cultures can reinforce what is valued by telling stories about what great leaders do about?

What?

Great behaviors are about the different values that you're upholding.

The values that are in your lobby, are not.

What about employee experience is day to day.

It's the day-to-day experience of them that you share through stories that really give a good flavor of what the culture is in a company.

So if you think all the way starting with a job interview both the the candidate gets stories questions like tell me about a time you that's all about a story.

The candidate should also be asking questions to understand the culture and I don't know.

What is your culture like here?

I mean questions, like asking the hiring manager, tell me about a time, someone changed your mind because then you start to see.

Well, do you do you have people change your mind and what does that look like?

And so I think little moments like that can be powerful stories that demonstrate what is valued and that can be done anywhere, anytime that's super powerful and it definitely sets the bar because R-right like how do you define say what quality means or excellent service means or, you know, a great effort like how do you really Define these things?

But you're right that stories make sense and they can be passed on from Team to team, you know year over year and an N certainly like and it's very interesting just the the notion of like as someone going into a job interview asking the hiring manager to tell them a story of you know, when Happen.

Like when their mind was changed, that's super interesting.

One thing that I did want to ask you about is you have a quote where you say there are two types of leaders leaders that lead because of the position they hold and people who are leaders because others choose to follow them.

And so that's really interesting and you know, as I read it it is it I mean it really strikes me as being something very very true and And it really truly, is that way, I guess my question is it sounds like, you know, if you're the second type of leader, that's a very special place to be.

So in your experience and like, in your observations and learnings, how do people become more of the?

The second type of leader.

Yeah, it's so we all choose to follow different people in different moments and I think the Places where you tend to identify with someone and choose to follow them is because you are inspired by them, or you feel aligned by values and the moments where you choose not to follow, someone is off and you see some demonstration are values that you're like, hmm, I don't like that.

And so really the leaders that become the one that others want and choose to follow are consistent in their behavior and their values, there was research done on the worst kind of leader.

And the worst kind of leader isn't the meanest leader or the leader that yells and screams, the worst kind of leaders actually the inconsistent leader and it actually goes back to Neuroscience because our brains can rest.

We don't know which version of the leaders going to show up that day.

We have the meeting to plan for the meeting and we have, okay, we're going to try this.

And if this happens we're going to switch to this plan and all the energy goes to anticipating how the work is done.

Instead of Just doing the work and that is, what's going to lead to burnout and exhaustion and all of that that inconsistency.

So leaders that people choose to follow are consistent and the way they show up each day that makes it easier for the people to know what to expect to lean into that.

And there's values there that they just identify and connect with them and are inspired by yeah, condition.

She is your right leg.

As you say it, it makes a lot of sense of consistency.

Is very important.

So, my question is, how do you become more consistent, persistent of awareness?

Right?

It does one of the biggest challenges I find that leaders have is they just don't build time into their weeks or or schedules to stop and reflect on what has happened this past week.

This past month, this past quarter.

What have I learned?

What do I want to do different?

You know, what are some of the patterns I'm seeing?

And when you build that in, whether that's on a wall, Our webinar that's time, looking out the window, or whether that's through conversation with others, like that's where you start to realize.

Am I showing up consistently?

Am I demonstrating what I want?

Am I spending time in the places that are most valuable the reflection and setting intentions for, what does it look like?

When I am demonstrating values?

What would my my employees and teams experience like those two things that reflecting and setting intentions for how you want.

To spend the time or the two most powerful things and so if you're not in the habit of doing it, if the block a little bit more time up front because you have more to think through but once you get in the habit of it you can just block, you know, 10, 15 minutes every Friday or whatever time.

Each week to think through that and think from the past week and set your intentions going forward.

So is that the sort of thing that, I mean, you recommend to leaders that you work with.

So, For people to actually very explicitly Define values or things.

The way that they show up, and like this, everybody need to have their own value system.

Very explicitly written, I don't know, I don't believe so, but you have to understand what is important to you.

So, do you need a list of whatever words are most meaningful to you?

And here's my list of values.

No, but you should have a good idea of what am I?

My what am I doing?

Well, where am I challenged?

What are my employees experiencing?

What do I want them to experience?

And so it's kind of the same, ask yourself these questions, a situational things of what do you want that day-to-day to look like or if you zoom out not just day to day but what do I what career experience do I want employees to have and think about what that is that is super helpful and so that's a lot of where we have to help leaders pause and step back and About what they want that to be.

Yeah, that's super interesting, like having that list of questions that you should ask yourself say every Friday and it really allows you to get out of the day-to-day and really maybe take a holistic view of how people experience your leadership.

And, and if that's consistent with what you actually wanted to be, I think that makes a lot of sense.

So speaking of taking a step back and taking that holistic View, you one of the things that I think that we all suffer from is, you know, when you're in the day-to-day and you're working with a lot of people very often you sometimes I think people underestimate the power of describing other people's value to them and so this is something that I think you cared deeply about and my question is like, what are some ways that That we can, we can be better at this, or what are some practices?

We can employ to make sure that others around us, do understand their value, and our appreciation of them, It's start first by asking the people around you what meaningful recognition looks like because sometimes we want to communicate value and recognition and we do it through what is Meaningful to us and then it falls flat because that's not what's meaningful to the person.

Some people want the spotlight and the big bull billboard attention and other people want the really thoughtful, email or conversation.

So I would start first with curiosity, A about what is Meaningful to you and some questions like what is your best day at work.

Look like and you know, what are you what are the things that drain your energy and have a conversation where you get to know the person and in that start to share?

Here's what I have experienced it, I really value.

How do we help you do?

More of that one thing?

I think that many people are are not graded, doing is pointing out like Loved What You Did In This Moment.

In this meeting that.

Here's the impact that had.

How do we do that more often or here you do this?

So, well, we don't always tell people what we think they're really great at or what we value.

Because we assume they know and those are the comments and make our days.

So the making sure that you understand what's important to the person you get curious about what they enjoy and what they're interested in and starting to share as a habit.

Set a reminder In your schedule to regularly go and have these conversations and tell people what they're doing, is so powerful and their specific wording.

That matters instead of saying, I think you're a great Storyteller, say you're a great Storyteller.

The receiving end of that is different.

So I think you're a great interviewer versus, you're a great interviewer.

Feels different on the receiving end and so don't qualify it.

Just share your experience of them.

Yeah, I think that that is very interesting and being on the receiving end of that, you're right, they do land differently and and I love this.

Other thing that you did, this question that you added onto it, which was how do we, how do we get you to do more of that?

And I think the, the question really allows I think both parties to think about like a this could be a strength and like how do we make sure that the person can utilize that more at work and I think that's a very productive conversation to have.

If you're on the receiving end of like, what is your best day at work and how do we create more them for you who doesn't want to have that conversation versus?

You know we tend to focus all on feedback and fixing or or things we want to see different going forward.

But there's also a lot And how do you lean into strengths and bring them forward more often and those are probably conversations.

We don't have enough of.

Yeah.

Karen, this is this has been super insightful for me.

I have been really enjoying the stories that you told during this conversation, all the Tactical advice and tips as well.

When do we get to read the book?

Well, that's a really good question.

I'm hoping a year from now it is writing.

A book is an interesting Journey.

Any of exploration and twists and turns and hoping a year from now.

Yeah.

No, that's awesome.

Well, if there is a list somewhere that I can sign up, so I can be one of the first to order.

I'd love to do that and whenever it's out we'd love to have you back on the show.

So one of the questions that we leave everybody with is for all the managers and leaders out there constantly looking to get better at their craft.

What are some tips tricks resources or just parting words of wisdom that you would leave them with?

Yeah, I think the thing that I think is always an interesting unlock for leaders, is how do you get your employees to give more calories per hour?

Like we always think time is the finite commodity and it's not.

It's really energy because if we are feeling burnt out or we are not motivated or inspired like we just Don't it's much harder to go through the motions.

And so getting curious about those best days, those things you can really lean into and harness from your employees can be super powerful for that.

Yeah, that's great advice and, and a great way to end it at.

Thanks, Karen for doing this.

Thank you.

I so enjoyed our conversation and that's it for today.

Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of the super managers podcast.

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