Welcome back to the Sports Medicine Project.

Now premise for this episode, this is the very first time we are not talking anything about tendons or bones or pain.

We're talking about the stuff that that really actually does matter and affects us all, no matter who you are.

We're talking about business and finance and how much you can get paid and negotiating.

And I have an expert in the field, Jack O'Brien.

Mate, thank you for coming on the Sports Medicine Project and welcome.

Thanks for having me, Blake.

That's a bit nerve wracking being the first kind of non clinical guest.

Yeah, Yeah.

I was thinking it this morning.

I thought, you know, we've always had kids when we're doing preparation, we're, you know, going through studies and trying to tell about our own clinical experience and matching up what we have.

And I'm like, we're, we're not talking about any of that.

It's really just this person.

You've had all the experience.

Tell us kind of what it's like out there in private practice belt and the reality.

And if you and I speak all the time about this, I mean, it's just hard to find a resource on this.

You can learn a lot about tendons, but how much they get paid in allied health.

It's it's hard to find and people keep their their cards close to their chest.

Yeah, it's a funny one.

Money in particularly in the West, is a little bit of a taboo topic.

So it's, it's a tricky 1 to brooch, you know, people often don't necessarily share what they do or don't earn.

But it's funny, you mentioned papers and journals and articles and things.

There is quite a lot of evidence behind some of the things that we might touch on today, particularly around rapport relationships, you know, desire statements, those types of things.

So we're, we're possible to appease the, the data nerds.

I'll try and reference some journals as best I can.

Yeah.

Now for the listeners, who is Jack O'Brien?

Tell us your your journey because you've you've been through it.

You've been through it all.

Yeah, thank you mate.

I am husband and dad.

First off, got 4 beautiful kids and an amazing wife.

I am a physio by trade so I studied at University of Newcastle for my Bachelor of Physiotherapy.

Went straight into private practice here around Newcastle and about 2 1/2 years in had the opportunity to buy the clinic that I was working in, a small, a very small clinic in an old house.

And so we took that from a house into a purpose built facility.

We grew the team from 5 to 25 over the course of about 18 to 24 months, went from one location to to five locations at one point in time.

And in the in the process of growing that clinic, I stumbled across clinic Mastery, of which I'm now an owner of.

So clinic Mastery really, yeah, helped my journey and now I get to help others.

So like I was kind of at the same time growing my clinic and helping others to grow their clinic through some coaching and mental and eventually made both of those got just kept on growing.

And so I had to I couldn't do both justice.

I couldn't do both.

Well, ultimately sold my clinics and so now full time spend my days helping clinicians and clinic owners to to create amazing client experiences, to grow their clinic, but ultimately to create a bigger impact.

You know, I don't love the whole adage that business coaching is all about the money.

It can feel a little bit used car salesman ish, or at least that's the reputation of the game.

But ultimately, yeah, I and we are really passionate about helping individuals to help more people.

That's that's why I got into the healthcare game.

I assume that's why you got into the game is to help people.

And so these days I get to help people just like I did as a physio with my hands.

I now get to help people to to run a really sustainable business and to create amazing opportunities for their team members, their employees and ultimately that we can all help more.

Patients, yeah, that's a reality.

We don't maybe acknowledge it enough.

I mean, at its core, it is a business that needs to be sustainable and you need to have the right culture to help the people in in front of us.

I think maybe coming out of of university, you think, you know, if you're a really good clinician and you have the person in front of you, you just can focus on them and worry about them.

But you certainly need to.

But you're also in a clinic with other people.

You need to get paid, you need to work within a good community, you need to have a great boss.

There's so many realities that we just need to ignore it.

And that's just how it how it is.

It is a bit funny how it is like that in the West where there is a taboo about even just talking about this.

I mean, we were speaking kind of off air.

I mean, it's taken us 114 episodes and this is where we are.

Whereas straight away we know tenders vote.

We want to talk all about that, focusing on how you are and how happy you are.

This is just really a part of it.

It makes a big difference, right If you are as as the the affect that you have as clinician, if the sentiment that you carry is 1 of resentment and negativity and scarcity that is going to show up in your clinical decision making, that's going to show up in the rapport that you are trying to generate with a client.

And so as much as we probably, we don't want to talk about dollars and we don't want to talk about the commercial realities of private practice, it is a commercial reality.

We can't just put a head in the end.

So we might as well do what we can to understand it.

We might as well, you know, for some of us, you know, what's a good analogy?

So for some of us, we might not be that interested in pharmacology, but you have a duty of care to your patients to pay attention to what's happening in the realms of pharmacology and understand the chemistry.

The same is true of business in a sense, right?

We operate in a private practice context.

And you might not like that, but it is the reality.

And so you might as well swallow your pride and ego and start to learn about it and get a little bit interested and curious.

Because what you'll probably find, Blake, is that there is so much more complexity behind the scene that you had no idea about.

Yeah.

So if we're gonna, you are gonna, I'm not going to talk about that.

You are going to talk about that because I've got some good questions for you, but you couldn't be be more right.

And you know, ultimately it's helping you know yourself.

We talk about the cost of living and the finance.

And I can understand the principle of people say, you know, I didn't get into physio or Podiatry or chiro or Osseo, you know, to, to make money.

But I mean, the reality is you have to make some money to live the life or if you have a partner or friends, do the things you want to do in life.

If you want to travel, do more study, you need finance to do that.

And what you do for your work is obviously the the reward for that.

That's right.

None of us got into it for the dollars.

If we wanted a career for dollars, you'd become whatever a stockbroker or real estate agent or whatever people who make lots of money do.

We didn't do that.

We got into it because we want to help people.

But it is it is incumbent on us.

It is a responsibility that we have to provide for ourselves, provide for our family.

Because if you it's a commercial reality, right?

And you mentioned that's that's word at the start, sustainability.

If your career isn't sustainable and if the clinic and the context that you work in is not sustainable, you won't have a job.

And if you don't have a job, you can't help anyone.

And so we must have these environments, these clinics, these roles that are sustainable financially so that we can continue to help people, you know, week on week, month on month, year on year.

So sustainability really is the key.

And, and that word can be interchangeable for profitability, right?

We need to make a profit if, if there isn't profit and profit, your wage is the biggest profit you'll ever make, right?

Salaries are the are a return on the investment of your time.

And so these need to be your salary, your, your clinic's profitability needs to be sustainable so that we can continue to help more people to to reinvest in tech and to reach more population groups.

And not to grow for the sake of growing, but so that we can help alleviate the burden of disease, help people to flourish, live happy, healthy, active lives.

That's why all this matters.

Yeah, I like that, the 2GO hand in hand, you know, you want to, I mean, I love working and seeing runners.

You want to help more runners and a part of that is if the clinic's going well, you know, I can do that and see more of the people that I enjoy to see.

Now I purposely didn't send you this question.

I'm putting you on the spot.

So let's go back to, I don't know the year, but let's go back to the year that you graduated, come out of uni, you're ready to go your first job.

You don't have to give figures if you don't want to.

Your first job negotiation.

What did you do?

How did you know what to negotiate?

What's fair?

How do we even talk about it all the way back then?

Tell me.

Tell me.

Oh, very good.

Question mate, I reckon.

150 Take it or leave it.

Yeah, it's cold and hard now.

I, if I recall correctly, my new grad year, $27.00 an hour.

Yeah, yeah.

And, and to be honest, mate, I didn't negotiate on salary at all, if not very little because I, I actually couldn't care about the salary at that time.

I'm a new grad and, you know, maybe there's a, there's a, I'm a, I'm right in the middle of being a millennial.

And maybe there's a little bit of a difference between millennials and Gen.

Z as that follow.

And that's totally fine, you know, generational differences.

But what was most important to me was the opportunity to work as much as I wanted.

I I actually wanted to make sure that I could work overtime.

If I want it, Can I can I stay late?

Can I work weekends?

Can I do more?

How many patients can will you let me have?

How much CPD will we doing together?

Because that how many sports clubs can I contact off my own bat and volunteer at at a weeknight or a weekend?

And I don't say that's a big night myself, mate.

I say that to say the most important thing in that first year is not the dollars.

Like sure, earn enough to to be able to eat, you know, sausages and rice, whatever else you need to eat, keep it basic, keep it simple and work your freckle off to get as much experience as you can.

That is the most valuable thing in that first year.

So yeah, I didn't negotiate hard on dollars at all.

But you know what, Blake?

When you work 40506070 hours, you make pretty good dollars.

Like you, you get out what you put in, right?

So yeah, it's 27 bucks is pretty low, or at least by today's standards.

But you know, work 50 hours at that and you're doing pretty good.

Yeah, and I guess we're already on that topic and we'll just dive straight into it.

That kind of speaks to the archetype of the person because, and I know you've spoken and you've spoken to me a lot about this as well.

I mean, people just want different things from work.

Some people really put a lot of onus on the work life balance.

Other people put more onus on, well, I want to see as many people as I can because I want to be the best I possibly can.

And there's a funny in between of those two archetypes and there's much more to that.

But the reality is, which I would would like to ask you what kind of advice you have for the people that are listening that want both of that, where you want the work life balance, but you only want to earn as much as you possibly can because it's very hard to have both and you kind of have to land in between.

Yeah.

So I'd say there's no such thing as balance, right.

I think of it like a a ship or a plane that's trying to course correct.

Yeah, it's always a tension.

So I would encourage people to think less of work life balance and more of the tension of work and life.

And you get to define what you want.

You can have anything, but you can't have everything.

That's the reality, right?

So you can work 30 hours a week if you want.

You're probably not going to earn 150 grand working 30 hours a week.

So it's you can't necessarily have both things.

So choose what you want and be happy with that.

If you just want 2530 hours a week, you're not going to have a whole lot of spare cash.

If that's what you want, that's fine.

And if you want to work 50 hours a week, you'll earn plenty of cash, but you won't be necessarily socializing five nights a week.

Now, yeah, I mean, I could go on forever, but I think that's the key.

And I'd say architect your life for what you truly want, what you want, not what society thinks you should have or not what your real estate buddy has.

Or you know, I had a, one of my best mates through school.

He dropped out of school like 16 1/2 got his trade, you know, and he's, he got paid to do his apprenticeship.

None of us got paid to go to uni.

He got paid to do his apprenticeship.

He gets all these tool bonuses and he's working in the mines and you know, 100 grand a year as a, as a 20 year old.

It's just not our healthcare reality.

So I shouldn't compare my world to his world.

So dismiss the myth of work life balance.

Know what you want and build a life that makes you happy.

Doesn't necessarily make others.

It doesn't.

It doesn't.

We don't.

Build a life to appease others.

Build a life for yourself.

Yeah.

And what what do you see as the the ceiling?

I mean, let's say the average week, you know, 40 hours.

And it is hard to go between professions because it's a little bit different.

But I mean, for someone listening in their first couple of years, like what have you seen as the average ceiling for someone if they're fully utilized, you know, doing really well?

So there's a couple of ways to look at this, right?

So think of it a really good thing to be aware of for young clinicians is in your first year working somewhere.

If if you're a new grad or a recent grad, say you're one to three years out your clinic, let's say your employer, your boss is not making any money on off your off you in your first year.

They are running at a loss.

They are investing in you and so just remember that that that your boss is running at a loss on you for the first year.

So and then you want to think about this paradigm that whatever you generate, you get a portion of.

But there is so many other things that the clinic needs to take care of.

It's not just your wage.

So if you generate, you know, $150.00 an hour and you get paid $40.00 of that power, including super and compa or whatever, don't forget that there is so many other expenses that you don't see and you've got no context of.

So to to you know, we've all heard about cost of living crisis, right?

We're all dealing with a cost of living crisis.

And I say that inverted commas at home.

Well, here's an interesting reality check for you.

Your clinic, your boss is facing a cost of existing crisis as a business because there the your boss's electricity has gone up, rent has gone up, cost of supplies has gone up, insurances have gone through the roof, all of these operating expenses.

So I say that to say, Blake, your income will always be a function of what you can generate, right?

What you that's just a limit.

You, you can't get paid more than you generate.

Obviously none of us have money trees in the backyard.

You cannot get paid more than you generate, and you will only ever be paid a fraction of what you generate because there's other expenses that make the world go around.

Put it this way, if you as a clinician were to take 80% of the revenue that you generate, that only.

Yeah, that doesn't happen.

By the way, I'm being dramatic.

This is what you're recommending?

Oh, this is a great clinic.

I love this clinic.

Yeah, sign up it it happens nowhere.

But if you were to take 80% and your clinic has 20% left, they've got to pay for all sorts of expenses.

The clinic has to pay for rent, which is usually close to $100,000 for most stand alone clinics.

They're going to pay for electricity.

They're going to pay for the admin team members that handle your payments and re bookings and all of your nitpicking and complaining.

They have to pay for marketing.

Those clients don't come out of thin air.

Those clients and patients come from an investment in marketing.

Maybe it's refer networks or Facebook ads, Whatever the case is, your clinic has to pay for support services.

You know, usually a clinic is investing a minimum of 5% of your revenue in support services like accounting, coaching, legal brokers or all of these types of things.

So you know, and, and we're talking 10s of thousands of dollars your clinic, your employer is paying to these support services.

So that's a long way of answering your question, Blake, that.

No, it's good because it just acknowledges that it does.

Yeah.

And I can certainly press on those details a little bit more.

But in your first year out, it's again, it's differs by profession, differs by style of clinic, but if you are earning in the ballpark of 40% of what you are generating, when it all is comes out in the wash, you're on a pretty good wicket.

I like that.

I like that number.

It just, it gives a bit of clarity around that 'cause I, one thing I wanted you to acknowledge is the reality I've been as I remember in my, my first year and not knowing as much about, you know, business as I, as I do now.

You know, you might bill $8000 for the week.

Like, wow, my boss just got 8 grand in his pocket cash.

That's awesome.

He's going to Fiji tomorrow.

I wonder if he's never working.

But those realities are, are true.

And I think, you know, the, the argument, I guess the rebuttal to that is then, well, they, you take on, if you're a business owner or you're the boss, you take on the risk for, you know, the potential benefit.

But that is just a reality of then owning the business.

If you're an employee and you're like, oh, he's taking a little bit more, but again, he's taking more of the risk.

Well then it's a matter of, well, if that doesn't want to be the case, you should go and do your own business really then take on the risk because that's the benefit.

They just take on more risk.

So they do get more profit in the end or they do make money off yourself working like that's how business works.

It is a little bit and when you think about, you know that fallacy of when you look at a simple line chart of time, a function of time and you zoom in on say the stock market today, right over the last five days.

We're recording this on the 4th of April.

The US stock market's taken a dive this morning for anyone paying attention time.

And if you, if you just saw the last five to seven days of the stock market, you'd be like, Oh no, the world's in turmoil.

But if you zoom that timeline out across the last 10 years, it's up and to the right a long way.

And So what I'm saying there, Blake, is, yeah, it might look like this week your boss has made heaps of cash.

I can guarantee you that he's not making cash week on or she he's not making cash week on week, month on month.

There's weeks where it's up and weeks where it's down.

And actually, you know what?

There's years when it's down.

I don't know a clinic owner who hasn't paid themselves unders what they should have been paid or in clinic.

Most clinic owners have worked for $0.00 Donuts for an extended period of time and that's the risk they took to be able to build a clinic that provides you a really cushy $80,000 a year job.

So you know, there's all this in context.

Your, your boss worked for nothing to create an environment that you get to now stand on their shoulders.

And so, yeah, they might make a little bit of profit here and there, but in context, it, it plays out in the wash.

And secondarily, every clinic owner I know, and I've worked with hundreds.

Well, I've worked with thousands now, Blake, when they make a profit, I guarantee you the first thing they think is not, oh, can I go and buy another Rolex?

Like no one says that.

What they say is maybe we could buy some more tech for the team.

Maybe we could buy some force plates or dynamometers or shockwave machine.

Maybe we could reinvest it for the team.

Maybe we could do a culture day or retreat.

Maybe I could take the team out for.

That's what clinic owners are thinking about.

They're thinking, can I make a profit so that I can give back to the team, so that I can sponsor a local Sports Club and yeah, maybe take care of my take, take care of their own family as well and, and have some investments.

But their first blink is to take care of the team and take care of the community.

And so I wish in Australia we had more of a culture where employees celebrate when the business makes a profit, because when the business is winning, we're all winning.

Yeah.

And to, to the, to the employee, you know, moving, you know, to that 40%, it's this delicate balance of as the business continues to make more profit, of course there should be some reward for, yes, the business owner and also the employee who's generating that.

So, and I don't think we'll ever gonna have an answer for that.

But it seems logical that the only way to try and balance that pull of as the business does better, you know, everyone around in the business should do better as well, potentially the only way really to be able to do that.

Is through communication and having that relationship where it's either tracked or you have goals to meet or KPI's or something to reach, which is really important because then it's very objective where you don't go 2 years.

Well, I haven't had a pay rise in two years.

What the Hell's going on?

You're doing all this stuff.

Whereas if it's least it's communicated and there's ways to track it, both parties can be happy and at least negotiate because it's going to be different depending on the size of the business where you are in your career.

But that seems to be the only way you would recommend, I guess, for younger people listening to be able to not get into that period where they feel like they're being taken advantage of.

Absolutely, mate.

And when you say communication, I think specifically use Stephen Covey's principles of seek first to understand.

You know, I'll say from my experience as an employer, when when a team member walks in your office and said I think I should be paid more, like this is a futile conversation.

Yeah, but when an employee walks in, always goes well, like seriously, communication one O 1, please read a book or watch a Ted talk.

But when an employee walks in and says, hey, Jack, I've got a few questions, a few like blind spots in my knowledge and awareness.

Can you help me understand a few things?

I've just got a few.

I'm curious.

I've got a few questions and I'd love to.

I'd just love to learn more about what happens behind the scenes and maybe we can talk about remuneration.

But in the first instance, I'd just love to understand when an employee says that I'm like, cancel the rest of my day, how much of my time do you want?

Like, that's such a beautiful, symbiotic, collaborative relationship.

So employees, please seek first to understand, ask questions, and that will earn you the respect and the trust that creates a platform for you to have collaborative conversations, to be able to negotiate.

Yeah, I think that's a real key, mate, is, is seek first to understand.

There is so much context and complexity that employees are sheltered from.

The business owner pops their head above the turret day in, day out and takes all these hits on your behalf.

Yeah.

So as do you think, do do you think it's not a red flag but something you should be concerned of if you're not having those conversations, if you're a business like you should be concerned like, hey, we haven't spoken about remuneration or it is it seems very insulated where no one really speaks about it or it's just knowing that nobody speaks about it.

Yeah, I think every business owner is a little bit different, you know, and so some will be super open and willing to talk about this stuff and and others will be a little bit gun shy, probably because they've been burned before by an employee.

So, you know, tread with with concern and compassion, but over to prove you this is really what this actually is like is a relationship trust building exercise.

And it takes multiple conversations, 2345 conversations to be able to build that trust, to be able to be vulnerable.

And maybe if you're a boss to share some numbers because it's really scary to for a boss and boss is the wrong word.

But for an employer to share numbers that are like hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of dollars to an employee that actually just has no context around how much things cost.

There's a lot of functions that that that go along in that.

And then I'd say first, finally, if you want to talk about increasing your remuneration and earning more #1 acknowledge that you get out what you put in it it.

I would I would suggest it is cognitive dissonance to expect to be paid more for doing the same thing.

Yeah.

I mean, I can't disagree.

I can't disagree that, especially when you're generating the revenue.

Right.

So if you do the same work, generate the same revenue, but expect to just be paid more, what that is, that's a win lose situation.

And again, it's back to Stephen Covey, right?

Great book, 7 habits of highly effective people seek a win win scenario.

So if you can come into that conversation and say, hey, I've been working my freckle off with, I've improved my cancellation rate, I've worked hard on my PVA, I'm doing a really good job, My clients love me, plenty of Google reviews about me, there's heaps of word of mouth referrals coming through.

And over time my Billings have progressed.

Is it OK if we talk about reiteration?

You're on a much better footing to be able to do that rather than walk in and go, yeah, I know my Billings have actually been trending downwards, but how about a pay rise?

Like please.

Yeah, Yeah.

I guess there's other, there's other things that are valuable to a clinic like as you, as you said.

And one of the things I wanted to ask you, I guess as a, as a business owner and talking with people, you know, what other ways can people get paid more?

Because I, I think that's probably one of the most important factors to acknowledge is if you're seeing, you know, 10 patients at $100 and the business, you know, with $1000, all the things that come out of that, the profit and so forth, you know, you can't expect to be paid $1100 or $950.

Some other things outside of the clinic or well within the clinic helping with that being maybe doing some training, some mentoring can also help.

But that can only take you so far.

So, yeah, what, what can you do in the, I guess the clinic scenario?

Just with the yeah, with the clinic.

So there is a like commercial objectivity to what we do.

It is a case of sometimes dollars in means a function of dollars out.

So do what you can to generate more revenue.

And all of this comes with the disclaimer.

Do it ethically.

Never over service.

Yeah, So I'd note most help most healthcare professionals under service, not over service.

Yeah, that's a podcast for another day.

But do more to generate more revenue.

Now, how can you do that?

Well, we can.

We can service people adequately #1 #2 if you're in a profession that provides products, recommend products, sell products where they are clinically indicated and helpful, productive for that patient, make the recommendation #3 maybe you could adjust your fees.

Maybe you could put your fees up.

Maybe you're so in demand, maybe you've got referrals coming out your ears and you're re booking patients appropriately that you've got a waiting list.

What that means is you, you've earned the right to put your fees up.

Maybe you could get creative with the shifts that you're working.

Work an early morning shift or a late evening shift where demand is higher so we can generate more revenue.

In that sense, the more marketing marketing activity you do, that might be creating content, meeting up with referrers, doing some creative stuff behind the scenes.

The more marketing you do, the more new clients you generate for the business, the better the business is.

So it's a revenue generating activity.

I notice also some other clinics will encourage the clinician to do more of their own admin work, right?

So there are clinics that have zero admin team and those practitioners, I can tell you are paid a higher percentage than 40% because they're doing the, they're doing their own admin.

The the clinic doesn't have to pay an admin team member or employee so you can save costs for the business elsewhere.

So that'd be a few off the top of my head.

But generate more revenue is that's what objectively it comes down to.

Yeah, I like that, that product line.

And I know listeners thinking, oh, does that mean just instead of getting one pair of foot orthotics, we give them two or three or four?

I can give you the clearest example because I already know what's going through your head as a podiatrist.

People will come in to see us sometimes for blister management or fungal nails.

They will go to get their blister management material like a little gel sleeve that goes over their toe or a little anti blister pad or a pad that goes over the blister or just simple topical fungal treatment.

And it's easier for me to just have that in the clinic and say, hey, I'm going to give this to you at the same cost as the chemist.

And we don't have an insane market at the same cost of the chemist.

And you don't have to go to the chemist.

Are you happy with that?

Because I'm telling you to buy it anyway.

Or a compression sock.

And they're like, Oh, yeah, that makes it way easier.

Let's do that.

Like, that's an example of the product.

It doesn't mean, you know, going and getting it.

As I said before, yeah, it's a.

It's an easy example to think.

Of convenience.

People pay for convenience.

I'll put my business coaching hat on.

Put your put your prices up on your products, Blake.

Because people will pay for that.

Convenience in the clinic, me included.

And so here's the thing with products, right?

And at the risk of going down this rabbit hole, pull me out if we need to.

I don't want to get in the, you know, orthotics specific debate necessarily, but we have a duty of care as healthcare professionals.

You have a duty of care to make the best recommendations to that client irrespective of your assumption of their socioeconomic status because you've never seen their bank statements.

You can make all the assumptions you like about whether they have private health insurance or what they wear or What Car they drive, but you don't know their socioeconomic status.

Irrespective of their SES, it's our job to make the best recommendations of care and let that patient decide what's valuable to them, not you decide what you think is valuable to you.

So make the if you use a product in your consult for that 30 minutes, what about the other 167 1/2 hours of the week?

Perhaps there's an opportunity for that patient to use that product at home.

Perhaps there's ways that we can enhance how they feel, but feelings matter, right?

And so maybe they might not be the perfect double blinded RCT to show that this will significantly improve their progress.

But if it makes them feel good, do it and let the patient decide.

Here's an interesting example.

Like I'm in my mid, let's call it late 30s maybe now.

And I, I can assure you the decisions I make for mine and my family's health care in my late 30s, I never dreamt in a million years that I would spend as much on my family's healthcare 1015 years ago when I graduated.

And that's, that's the curse often of inexperience is that you're 27 and you've never spent more than $100 on a healthcare experience and you've got patients that are happily parting with thousands of dollars to improve something minuscule in your in the healthcare.

And you're like, what on earth are these patients doing?

Why would they do that?

You don't understand you will one day, but for them, it is a worthy investment in their healthcare.

You might not get it, but it doesn't.

It's not up for you to get it.

It's for you to provide your best recommendations of care and let the patients decide what's valuable for them.

Yeah, and all you can do is communicate, you know, the pros and benefits or whatever and the costs.

I mean costs are a part of informed concern and the orthotic debate is a good one.

But it's any product debate of, you know, someone comes in.

Pain's a massive driver for people.

But I mean, we don't see it as much CQ stuff.

But you know, my partner Kelly being a physio, someone comes in with like radiculopathy, really raging back pain.

They just want help and it's in in their eyes and in our life.

It would be ethical to see them in three days.

Let's see what we can now get you moving better.

I need to see you again.

Do you want to be seen again?

This is what we can do.

This is how we can help rather than, oh, I don't want to spend too much.

Let's just see you in three weeks.

You really got to ask you communicate with them.

And some people may say financially I can't.

I'll see you when I can.

Let's go three weeks.

But some people and most people like I want to do whatever I can to get it better.

Help me out.

I can't run or I can't do this.

Help me help.

Me and that's that's patient centred care for us yeah, to decide what we think we would do in that situation is clinician centred care.

So you know I saw a podiatrist for an insertional tendon problem and need a shockwave and I'm like that is the worst experience I've ever had in my life painfully.

But sign me up everyday, like don't book me in next week, book me in tomorrow, please.

Like can I see you sooner?

Because I just needed that thing sorted quickly.

Yeah.

So I think all that to say, if we can increase our revenue ethically and sustainably, that is how we can then open the conversation to, you know, you, you get out what you put in, you put in heaps to the clinic, you're going to be remunerated.

Yeah.

What do you say to people that just, you know, they, they listen to this and go?

I just, I don't either I don't like the community or the culture or the clinic.

I just don't get on.

I'm going to start my own business.

How difficult is that just to go and start your own private practice or work is just a sole trade.

I can.

Is it more beneficial, less beneficial or enumeration wise like what would you say generally speaking so the.

Chance of success is close to 0.

That's the reality.

You know, like 96% of small businesses fail within the first five years.

Yeah.

So it's a big risk in the first instance.

You don't, you're not aware of all of the costs that are incurred.

Again, like if you can earn more than if you can take put in your pocket more than 40% of your revenue pre tax.

You're you're doing super well.

I would say you, I would actually say you don't have a business.

You just have a job.

So you're like, if you go out and just get to get a room inside a medical centre or you work yourself and start seeing your own patients.

That's there's nothing right or wrong about that.

But let's not kid ourselves.

You've got a job and you're your own boss, and the boss doesn't let you take sick leave and the boss doesn't pay you when you're on holidays and you've got to do all this extra work at home.

There is so much work involved in starting and running a clinic.

So is it possible?

Sure.

Here's the other thing, like businesses, health clinics that I've seen that are successful rarely start it because they just want to take home more of what they bill.

Yeah.

Clinic Best will have a passion and a vision for healthcare.

I want to see see a difference made in the runners community of my city, or I want to create an environment where young therapists can thrive, or I want to change healthcare for the better.

These are the clinics that have a purpose greater than themselves.

If you're just doing it to try and make more money, like, I don't know, I'm just not convinced that money is the right primary driver.

So yeah, it's a long way so.

You're using probably.

And it's pretty bloody hard.

Yeah.

And if you're using time as the metric, you know, patient facing hours plus the time outside of that, you might be seeing 30 hours worth of patient, but it's probably more like 50 hours for the 20 hours of book work.

So when you struck like that time out, yeah, that is that's difficult.

Yeah.

It's like it's easy to go and open your own thing up quickly.

Like it's easy in the short term, but it's, it becomes really complex when you take holidays, you ain't getting paid.

Like if you don't generate the dollars, you don't get paid.

That's how it works when you're you're a sole trader in that context, you know, you've got to build a brand and a reputation that your clinic has probably been around for years and years and has a great name in the community and contacts with all the doctors.

So these things take a lot of time getting started up paying for websites and advice and consultants and legal firms and insurance and it's lumpy income in the first couple of years.

You know, if when you're used to just earning couple 100 bucks a week, 1000 bucks or maybe 2000 bucks a week.

And then in business you're earning $3000, zero, 300 dollars, $2000 you, you won't be able to get a mortgage probably for the 1st 12 to 24 months because the banks won't want to look at you.

There's a, there's a lot to it.

Now can you pull it off?

Absolutely.

I love seeing clinicians have a go when they've got a passion and a vision.

And then the final thing, Blake, So I don't want to rant here again, there's a bit of cognitive dissonance going on here.

We all go to university for usually minimum four years, often more, and spend $50,000 to plus on our degrees to learn to become a clinician.

And then we think we can add on a career of being a business owner and assume that we can watch a couple of YouTube videos, set up ChatGPT account, and become a business owner.

Please give me a spell.

It takes 10s of thousands of dollars and multiple years of learning to learn the skill of business.

Business is a skill and so we don't want to deceive ourselves thinking that it's just if you're a good clinician, you'll be a good business owner.

No, it's a different skill set.

Yeah.

It's kind of the reality that if you are a good clinician, you know, you're assuming you're good at it, you probably like it, you're going to be doing less of that because you're working more on the on the business.

Yeah, yeah, Yep.

Now this is the big question, Jack.

So in my circles at the moment, so I've been out five and a half, six years now.

So I'm, you know, getting to the end, getting old now.

Yeah.

So the scenario that all probably the people that all my colleagues around my age group are at where you've gotten close to the ceiling of what you can earn.

And let's say you're seeing 40 patients, you know, only way really to earn more is you work more hours, you, you know, see more patients for the kind of the same thing, you know, you, you charge more potentially products or something else, but doesn't move the needle that much.

If you're at the ceiling, you're 100% utilized or 95, you're kind of like, well, this is this is it.

Can I do this for the next 40 years?

And it just doesn't feel sustainable.

And you feel a bit of resentment because like, there's no way I can just keep doing this.

So what, what kind of advice you have?

I guess, what avenues are there?

I guess this off the top of my head, there's buying into the business, starting your own business, what we've spoken about, and then also having another passive second income that's challenging as well because then it could affect what you're doing in the business and maybe the business only need to communicate that as well.

So, you know, what advice do you have for people that that are at?

That stage good.

Good question mate.

And it's a worthy exploration.

So more money isn't always worth it, right?

Particularly if you're on a reasonably high income, anything additional that you earn will be taxed, will be taxed.

So it's like, is this discretionary effort right at the tip like that, that last little bit, is it worth it?

That's it something that we we all need to consider and decide for ourselves.

I, I'm a fan of the side hustle of the the side project, the side gig because it gives you a little bit of extra stimulus, right?

Being healthcare professional is monotonous.

There's no real ways around.

We are beholden to the diary and it's on the on the minute.

Every minute the patient rocks up and malt.

Many of the presentations are the same and healthcare doesn't change a whole lot.

So just to give you an extra novel stimulus is a good thing.

And think of that more of an interest project.

If you can make some dollars off it, great, do that.

I'd really encourage get clinicians to think about exploring the opportunities of buying into their business and starting that conversation with the existing owner or ownership group.

Now, it might not be an option today, but it might be an option that you can work towards over the next 12 to 36 months.

And again, there's a lot of nuance around how a clinic is valued, what a buy in looks like.

But the reason I say that mate, is if, if you've got, let's just be hypothetical, if you've got $50,000 to spend on business, you'd go and start your own thing for 50 grand.

You'd need minimum 50, but let's call it 50 or you could invest that into the business.

That's a business that's already proven.

It's, it's a lower risk, right?

Because probably that business has proven itself.

It has a brand reputation, it has revenue, it has profit, it has systems.

So.

Buying into your current workplace is a really good and exciting opportunity.

And I'd also encourage you to think about what you can do with the income that you earn.

Right.

We can all like, yes, we can always earn more.

You can also spend less.

Yeah.

And like, I get that's hard.

I don't.

I don't say that from a.

Don't pull the avocados on toast out here.

Flooding millennials these days.

And they're on toast.

It's funny, but you know, we we all get swept up from time to time and having too many subscriptions and getting a little bit lazy and keeping up with the Joneses, particularly if you're in circles of like we alluded to, the classic stockbrokers or real estate agents before where people are rolling in high dollars.

That's not the game that we signed up for.

So can you be frugal and can you be happy?

What gives you happiness?

What is your desire statement like?

What do you want out of life?

And are you willing to do what it takes?

So yeah, side hustles are good, buying into your clinic, it is a good thing to start the to start the process.

Yeah, I think you, you're right there with just being smarter, you know, with your money.

This isn't really advice for allied health.

But you know, even when I was in my second year, just started reading more books about finance, the classical rich dad, poor dad, about investing.

You know, Kelly and I have quite a bit of money invested and we continue to invest and try to use that money in other avenues.

And that's, you know, will be the recommendation for anyone just generally.

Better get good with money.

Yeah.

They're kind of the avenues to go through.

Like is there the ability like the difference between a contractor versus an employee?

Does that make any difference better or worse?

So it's risking, there is a risk reward component to that.

So there's multiple angles.

There's a, there's a bit of, there's more risk with being a contractor #1 #2 most workplace contexts contracting is a sham.

And that's a, that's a technical legal term.

Like you can say you're a contractor or you like, but you'll be treated as far as the law is considered as an employee, Again, a contract.

The I don't like contract arrangements because they're so transactional, right?

It's like you only get paid when you generate revenue.

There's no incentive, therefore, to do all of the discretionary 1 percenters.

There's no like part of the team.

It becomes a bit of an US versus them dollars, very transactional.

Again, you don't get paid if you don't generate income.

You have to take care of your own super and workers comp and all insurances, these things that we don't like to think about.

So again, contracting can sound sexy because maybe the week on week dollars look a little bit higher, but the week on week expenses are just as high for a a disproportionate amount of risk.

So I don't think generally that's a good option, but talk to your employer about reward structures, right?

One of the world's greatest investors, Charlie Munger, to show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome.

And so if your is to earn more money, then ask your employer to incentivize that and to create goals and KPIs for you to hit.

Let's work on a plan together to make that happen.

You don't have to do it all on your own, but talk to your boss about it and the.

The idea of the Commission structure and kind of having a base salary you earn over that or say you know, let's say you know, $2000.

Once you build that you earn a percentage Commission of whatever is over $2000 or just a straight percentage or whatever arrangement.

Do you find, you know, you should wherever you are in your career, you should have at least somewhat of an idea of what the progression looks like with your boss.

Like I'm in year 2.

This is what it looks like either at year three or when I do these things, I move to this and this is just how the clinic functions.

I get to hear, I get to hear, I get to hear or I'm at year 6 and I'm at the cap.

But this is all other things that I can do.

Should that be somewhere said And so should be a clinic policy.

Is it we there?

It's not a clinic policy.

Should you know people just be aware of that.

Just a progression at least.

The best clinics will have that documented.

Most clinics will have a version of it, but in a lot of clinic owners that don't invest in themselves are just kind of winging it and hoping for the best and dealing with whatever comes across their path.

But yeah, if you're, if you're a yeah, progressive clinician that really wants to go get it, yeah, ask your employer to have that.

A A base plus reward structure in my experience is the most sustainable arrangement because it means the base covers minimum expenses like.

Salaries.

Yeah, Yeah.

Etcetera.

And then that principle of you get out what you put in.

What's the win win scenario?

When you bill more, you get more and the clinic gets more to cover its expenses to make a profit.

So that, and this, there is not a lot of ceiling on that.

It's, it's usually limited by your capacity to see clients and your willingness to to work more.

But you get out.

What you put in is the big have a structure.

Ask your boss and if they don't have it then help them create it.

Like you might not know, but you can look to advice and mentors and consultants.

You can look to the Internet.

But create those structures where you do see a progression over time.

Yeah, isn't it weird like just you talk about like billing more and it just feels icky a little bit where like people are coming to pay you for your expertise.

I mean, any other, I mean, I go pay my mechanic.

I paid my mechanic $600.00 two weeks ago.

But I don't know anything about the car.

You are the expert.

Here is my money.

Fix my car because I need to drive.

Whereas when it comes into this scenario, it's like, you know, someone's got heel pain.

I'm coming to see you, Blake.

You're the potential perceived expert.

Please help me.

Here's the money.

It just feels really weird and I guess because there's people that can over service or there's a bit of patient autonomy and it's a little bit about the person.

But I mean, this is just a reality and surely having an open discussion has got to be the only way for us to feel a bit better about this, to talk about.

It.

Yeah, I appreciate you mentioning it.

It is.

There is a bit of an ick to it.

And we say Bill Moore, I guess that's the colloquialism in this conversation.

But really what we're saying is help more people.

Yeah, that that's it.

Either help more, help a greater number of humans or help those humans more often.

And so there there's a there's an expertise bias involved here, right?

Or an expert bias because we've done the study at university and CPD, because we know all the data and the evidence and all these things.

We wouldn't pay X dollars for a consult because we already know the information.

Yeah.

But use the car or the mechanic analogy, right?

Like I've got no idea what happens under the bonnet of our cars.

And so I'll pay someone what they kind of say it's worth.

I trust that they fix it.

And you know, it's a regrettable investment, often because it's now the car's broken another seat.

No, it's.

Not, yeah, a regrettable investment.

It's an investment that gets us back to doing what we love, right?

I know that the mechanic Healthcare is is a little bit of a jaded analogy, but the the point.

Is we're not here.

We're not saying humans are like cars, but you get the no, no, no, we're not going down.

We're not going down that topic.

That's where you are.

There's nothing to this.

Podcast the the expertise bias is a big one is because we wouldn't invest that because we don't think it's worth that.

But you're not the patient on the other side of the plant for the table or the bed or the chair.

The patient thinks it's worth it, so let them invest.

Yeah, and there's a bell curve as you said, there's people that certainly would do the wrong thing or over service overcharge and there's probably people on the other side that that under charge.

And you know, we're not getting into the whole regression to the main Natural History.

You see them once we get better on their own if you give them all strategies, there's all these different contexts and we're not going to definitely not going to talk about that today.

But yeah, it's, it is a weird 1.

And I think you can only maybe become a bit more confident either listening to things like this.

I know you've got the clinic mastery podcast where you speak about these realities and you can only feel a little bit more equipped if you know a little bit more.

It's like anything, I mean, if an Achilles terminopathy walks in the clinic, I feel more confident.

If I know more about Achilles terminopathy, I know the risk factors, I know what rehab it needs.

I know the evidence for shockwave heel is for footwear.

It can only be the same in the scenario that you're in right now working in a in a business and it's definitely helped me.

Although n = 1 but you can only issue you know, logically.

You can, you know, and that whole regression of the main things get better, Natural History, etcetera.

We can explain that to patients.

I know that, Blake, right?

I know that as a physio.

I know how that data works.

I had a back injury or back pain a couple of weeks ago.

Again, you know exactly what I wanted.

I want someone to put their hands on me, tell me it's going to get better, give me one or two exercises that I already know.

And I wanted a MRI referral.

Yeah.

I know none of that.

Oh, you'll.

Be a great patient.

Don't even talk to me, rather for a buddy rather.

But that, like, I know the regression stuff and it makes me feel better.

And when I feel better, I'm likely to have like that Natural History is probably going to be accelerated because, you know, less stress, sleep better, blah, blah, blah.

So we know all this stuff and when we get injured, we still fall into some of those fallacies.

Imagine what it's like for a patient.

We forget.

I think we're a little desensitised to the realities of being a patient, right?

And so I'll often encourage clinicians to think about what it's like when you're going to the dentist or taking your car to the mechanic for that matter.

You've got no idea you, you're like, what are they going to find?

Is this going to hurt?

How much is it going to cost?

Remember, remember that feeling of being in the dark?

That's what those 10 or 12 people walking through your door today feel like.

They're in the dark and they depend on you to care for them.

We're a caring provision.

Care for them, Don't just tell them.

Go home and it'll get better.

No care for them.

Yeah, yeah.

And for, for the, I guess for the progression, do you think it's great to have and good to have established KPIs that you and the employee and KPIs is another loaded term.

It's just, you know, if I do this well and this goes OK, well then maybe I deserved more enumeration or more flexibility or whatever it may be.

But do you think that's a better example than I could time based progression of E3's this year?

4's is of course you know has to be in line with the minimum wage or above, but how do you see that working generally?

Yeah, really good question.

So experience is a fallacy, right?

If you've had one year of experience 15 years over, you're 15 years.

Bradley Nielsen that on our podcast, we've said the same thing.

Right.

And I say this to clinicians that have come from the public system into private practice, like, oh, I've had five years experience like yeah, but you've probably learnt more bad habits than good ones.

Is it, is it applicable experience?

So experience generally is a fallacy, notwithstanding the award progressions.

So yeah, there should be some performance based progressions and I say that word performance loosely.

So here's a reframe that I think would be really helpful for clinical for for clinicians is change the the acronym of KPI to CE is Clinical Excellence indicators.

Now let's breakdown that term a little bit.

They're indicators, they're a proxy, right?

This is just an approximation to the, to the best of our ability, we're trying to objectify or indicate how clinically excellent you are.

Now that's hard to do, right, because it's, there's some subjectivity to it, but we're doing our best to objectify Clinical Excellence.

And so things like a cancellation, think of it like we're just going to break these principles down to their fundamentals, right?

A cancellation rate is a KPI or ACEI.

What is a cancellation actually reflect?

Well, it reflects that you as a as a clinician said to a patient, I need to see you on X date.

And the patient heard that and decided that they wanted to book that appointment.

They took your advice to book that appointment and at some stage in the future, they decided that that input, that appointment was no longer important.

And so they cancelled it.

They decided based on all that they know that their healthcare was a lower priority than something else in that time slot.

Now, I'm not talking about sicknesses and you know, incidentals that come up, but if they've, if they've cancelled your appointment to go and get their hair done, what they've said is I don't understand the significance of why I need to see my clinician.

I'm just going to cancel it.

And So what that actually reflects is our skill partially reflects, indicatively reflects our skill as a clinician of communicating the significance of the next session, why that links back to that patient's goals and priorities and what's going to happen.

We haven't done the best of our ability.

There are external, external factors, but a cancellation is a reflection of us falling short of creating significance and importance on that session.

That might sound controversial, but just I'd encourage clinicians just to put your bias aside and think about that for a second.

And so I use cancellation as an example.

DNAS, Pvas, re booking rates, average dollars per revenue, all of these KPIs are indicators of Clinical Excellence in the fundamental sense.

And so therefore, here's the other thing mate, Blake, sorry, not mate.

Here's the other thing Blake is.

Listen to you buddy.

Champ, we all innately want to be better, right?

We want to get better.

And so we need to create an objective standard of where we are and how we can progress in the clinical judgement that we make in the delivery of our care, in the outcomes of our patients.

We need data to be able to do that.

And that's again, that's just a reality of progress.

And so if you want to get better tomorrow than you were today, better next week than you were this week, need to measure how you're going and in and put in plans and strategies to improve it.

So yeah, KPIs aren't scary, they're scary.

You know the only people who KPIs are scary for people are doing a crap job.

Like if you're blitzing it, you absolutely want to see your numbers because your boss is going to give you a high 5.

Let's talk about remuneration.

This is awesome.

We're helping more people like how I'm fulfilled in what I do because I'm crushing it.

So if you're doing a good job, embrace the numbers.

Yeah, it is.

It is tied.

It really is tied to people getting better.

And you know, the the chronic.

I mean, especially in Podiatry, the chronic nature of these conditions, you're gonna need to see someone more than once, more than twice, more than three times, generally speaking, 5-6, it really can be.

And depending on those different episodes of care, but it it is funny because sometimes you're reflecting thing when was the last time I truly discharged someone and said you are better.

You don't need to come back and see me versus they just fell out of the book.

Try.

I didn't see them again and you obviously you've booked them back in for a reason.

Ideally I want to review something or progress something.

And yes, there's some skills in communication that's a whole other topic is as well.

But there's two sides of talking about this is the reality and everything just feels so loaded.

So I'm just not even going to say it anymore.

I don't worry about it, but right, it is tied.

It is tied to to doing better.

It is tied to and there's things around I guess to give a bit more nuance to it, there are certain KPIs that have been used, which I certainly do not, you know, agree with.

Like as an example, everybody should be seen 10 times.

Anything less you don't get rewarded.

Things like that do not make any sense at all.

But things like a cancellation rate or generally speaking, how often if you're seeing someone want at an average and you're working in a clinic where people are in pain, I wouldn't say that that is the standard.

If you're seeing someone 30 times, I wouldn't say that's the standard either.

So you do need to communicate, look at the averages, talk to other people and see where we are.

And I think there is some published data on is it maybe 5 to 9 times is the average PVA roughly per per episode of care for like in general?

Yeah, some in physiotherapy.

It is obviously there's, there's a lot of context and it's very dependent on there's some dependent variables there if my statistics terms are correct.

But yes, and you know the often in my observation with hundreds of clinics, the quote best clinician see patients more.

Yeah.

Right.

And here's another piece right and I'm going to throw a controversial statement out there.

You just.

Throw these loaded terms.

Loaded terms.

Now, I'm not saying I necessarily believe this explicitly, but I want it to provoke some reflection.

Be critically thinking about this.

You should never discharge a patient.

That's loaded.

That's a loaded guns.

So here's the belief, or here's one of the beliefs behind it, right?

And hopefully, if you're listening to this, you can you can see the smiles and the jest.

There you go.

It's half our listeners and they're not listening anymore.

That's quit.

This was a project.

Here's the thing, I as a healthcare professional, you should believe that every interaction, every episode of care, you can make someone's life better.

You can.

Because every patient that walks through your doors can get stronger, can get more resilient, can get faster, can feel better.

And so every single episode of caring interaction, I'm confident as a physio and you as a clinician should be confident that you can make someone make someone better.

You can progress someone.

Because you know, unless you're dealing with the strongest person in the world or the most resilient tendons in the world, there's always improvement to be made.

And so the the crux of why I would inflamed people with that statement is we sometimes think we don't have any more to offer.

I just encourage you to reflect on that belief.

You've got something to offer.

Yeah, yeah, I, I, I agree with that.

I think my and and that comes down to the knowledge as well as yourself as a clinician.

But I can think of 1 great easy clear evidence base here because of course there's scenarios where that's not the case at all, but a clear one.

See a lot of stress factors in the clinic they recover, they get back to their running was spoke about their resistance training everything's going OK most of the time I'll explain to the importance of coming back in here is the minimum effective dose of bone loading that I want you to do to maintain strong and healthy bones.

Everything is going okay but I'm seeing you again.

Let's go into the gym.

Let's go through this because that is, I know it's valuable for you.

The bigger your bones are, generally speaking, maybe we can say that your stress factor risk is less.

So let's go through this stuff and that's that's hugely valuable for someone or and right.

Yeah, yeah.

All I'm saying is like, you've got something valuable to offer.

Now, whether people want to invest in that value or not is entirely their choice.

If they choose to come back or not, patients can do whatever they like.

We are not to impose ourselves unnecessarily, but have a belief that I can make someone's life better every time I see them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that.

I guess they're the other example would be like getting someone say, hey, come back and see me every three months so I can mobilise your ankle.

But even in saying that, if they were to find relief and they'd seen everyone on earth and they've seen the orthopaedic surgeon, they can't have surgery.

They've done all the rehab, everything they possibly can like hey, I see you every two months.

You make my ankle feel better and I can do the things that I enjoy.

I'm going to be honest, I don't have a problem with that.

That person has informed consent and their life is better.

And if they've exhausted the other options, like yeah, I guess there really is an answer to everything because it's patient centred care within context and within good reason.

Yeah, as long as that patient is informed of what they're getting and, and maybe you do explicitly tell them this, these Mobes will not decrease your risk of injury one iota.

They're short term.

I'm not podiatrist.

But if it makes you feel good and it makes you feel confident to progress your training, blah, blah, more than happy to help.

And as a as a, you know, an athlete, whatever patient runner they can, they can make that choice.

Maybe who knows what they're thinking?

They might be thinking, oh, I've paid all this money for this private health insurance.

I'd rather in Blake's pocket than some insurance company.

Yeah, great.

Let him let him choose that.

And you know, this is again, don't open the can, Jack, don't open the can.

But placebo is real and patients value placebo, right?

If it feels good and it makes a difference, then there is some value and merit in that.

Yeah, it really is.

It's a it's a touchy topic, isn't it?

Because you're right.

Don't open the can as then if someone says that, Jim, we, I mean, I, I really do feel like it's just people don't feel as though they can speak about it publicly because I mean, even just with foot athletics, I have this conversation with people all the time.

People, I've been told explicitly, and this happens multiple times a week, we talk about the cost of a custom orthotic versus a pre fabricated orthotic and they will say, listen, I have good health fund coverage, can I just get the custom?

Probably going to cost me the same anyway.

So well, here's the benefits pros, here's informed consent.

If you would like to do that, it's your decision.

It's probably not going to change too much of our outcome.

This is pros and cons and that that's a real conversation that happens and I'm sure other people are having this kind of a conversation.

Right.

Humans are irrational, right?

If we were rational, no one would buy a BMW or a Mercedes.

You'd just buy a Toyota.

They they all have four wheels and an engine.

Yeah, right.

But that's not why.

Humans are very complex beasts, and not every decision is a rational decision.

Morgan Hassell, great author.

If people are interested, a book called The Psychology of Money.

Really easy, simple read.

But Morgan Hassell talks about reasonable versus rational, and we often make irrational decisions that are reasonable to us and our context, and I think that's poignant for clinicians to remember.

Yeah, yeah.

Now, Jack, we're going to wrap up.

How do people find you?

What is your physical location?

They have a question about money.

They come and knock on the door.

Say, Jack, what do I do?

How do they, How do they rate?

How do they rate you?

Yeah, Instagram is probably the best way at Jack D O'Brien or at the clinic mastery for us as a team, but definitely happy to engage.

I love a good conversation, a debate, respectfully and civilly.

Or you can send me an e-mail jack@clinicmastery.com.

Yeah, and I, you know, you've given me some good advice over the years as well.

Just questions.

And I I do appreciate because you've been through the journey of different avenues of employee to employer.

And I just like the you acknowledge, you know what it's like to be an employee where you're not just like, Yep, the business owner has to do this and whatever else.

It's like, yeah, I understand how you feel.

You can feel a bit like that.

Here are some strategies to engage in better communication or probably not worth it.

You maybe need to go somewhere else if that's how it is so.

Yeah, definitely happy and and sometimes like a third party, an external unknown person just helps to to add a little bit of depth to a conversation.

So if you're a clinician and you're not sure how to broach this type of stuff with your with your employer or boss, yeah, let me know.

And likewise, if you're there might be some clinic owners listening along here, like I'd love to have this conversation with my team, but I don't know how to get that ball rolling.

Yeah, love to be able to not just share my experience, but share what what works for a bunch of other clinics as well.

Yes, and you can tell you're a very, very intelligent man because you use voice note on Instagram.

So you know you're getting plenty of information.

We're a couple of voice notes here.

We've had some we've had some wild conversations on voice note if you're a.

Podcast, If you're a podcast listener and you don't use voice notes yet, what are you doing?

Yeah, what do you tell me with your life?

Come on, the time you get back, I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what.

Awesome.

Jack.

Thanks so much for coming on, mate.

And talk soon.