This story contains adult content and language.

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The con artist's job is to get you to love them or love the thing they're creating, because once you're making decisions on that love, you're not thinking straight.

You're going to get.

Con Welcome to the Knife.

I'm Patia Eton, I'm Hannah Smith.

So we had a conversation this week that was so compelling we decided to release it without as much editing as we normally do.

It's with Jonathan Walton, who talks about con artists in a way that you might not have heard before.

I certainly hadn't.

His perspective is personal.

He was conned by someone he considered to be a best friend, practically family.

You may know Jonathan's story from his podcast Queen of the Con.

In his interview with us, he shares both his own experience and the stories of other con artists that he's now investigated for context.

In twenty thirteen, Jonathan met a woman in his apartment complex who introduced herself as Mayor Smith.

Their building had just lost access to its beloved pool, and when Jonathan organized his neighbors to fight the decision, Mayor claimed she could help after all, she was dating a powerful la mayor.

She soon became inseparable from both Jonathan and his husband.

She weaved herself into their lives for four years before ever asking for money, and by the time she revealed her true nature, her lives were so elaborate and their bond was so strong that it was really hard for Jonathan to see the truth at first, But once he did, he fought back.

His case has made international headlines and ultimately inspired his book, which we talk about in this episode, Anatomy of a con Artist.

One note toward the end of this interview is Jonathan quotes someone using a derogatory term for gay people.

We chose to leave it in because it was integral to his story, but we wanted to flag that for listeners.

Let's get into the interview.

Jonathan, Welcome to the Knife Podcast.

We're so happy to have you.

Thank you so much for inviting me on.

I'm excited to talk to you both.

Yeah, we're so happy about it.

So we've been lucky to get copies of your book, Anatomy of a con Artist, and we can't say enough good things about it.

We're going to talk about this book.

You wrote it a lot of it is how you were personally conned and sort of the wealth of knowledge that you've accumulated since that time.

You also weave in stories of other con artists, and I really love the way you structure the book.

You begin by outlining fourteen red flags that are common with con artists, and then you use those, you weave them throughout the book, and you give readers like concrete examples of how those red flags play out.

And we're going to talk more about those red flags because I love that you do that.

It's so clear and concise.

Thank you.

The backbone of the book is your personal story about being conned, and we want to talk about that as well.

But before we get into any of this, we just have to say Patie and I are aligned on this, Like your perspective on con artists and victims is so refreshing to us because it's so in line with what we've been always been saying on our podcast as well, that anyone can be conned, and what we've encountered over the years speaking with victims of scams is that there is this shame factor where they feel really bad about the fact that this has happened to them and you talk about that in the book, so I'm hoping that we can just start off with you sort of addressing that and talking about your perspective on that.

Well, thank you.

It pleases me to no end that you guys get what I'm trying to put in the book and you understand what I'm about.

Yeah, the structure was tricky.

It was a lot of back and forth with my editor, you know, because we're trying to make it as compelling and as intro as possible and also make it like a handbook for people.

And you're right, a lot of people think they can never get conn.

I used to think that too, you know, and that'll set you up to get con because what people don't realize is my con artist, the Irish Heiress aka Mayor Smith aka she had twenty other aliases.

She was not an anomaly.

There are thousands, if not millions of hers in male form and female form running around and the majority of victims, I would say upwards of ninety percent they never report what happened because of the shame, but also because of a red flag I write about in the book.

It is red flag number thirteen TMI too much information because you meet this new person in your life, new boyfriend, new girlfriend, a new coworker, a new neighbor in my case, and they get close to you real quick.

Con Artists don't outsmart you.

Con Artists outfeel you.

They figure out what your buttons are and they use your emotions.

So a con artist starts revealing their deep dark secrets, and that does two things.

Number one, it makes you think, wow, this person must really trust me.

This person must think so highly of me to take me in their confidence and reveal all their secrets.

And number two, you think I can reveal my secrets because you know I we're human beings.

Someone waves, You're gonna wave.

Someone says, hi, how are you?

You're gonna say it good?

How are you?

We have cues, we automatically respond to.

Someone starts over sharing TMI.

You start doing the same thing.

But here's the trick.

Con artists are making up their deep dark secrets.

They're not real, they're just fantastical stories.

But your deep dark secrets are real.

That is a very powerful way to keep victims quiet.

You know.

Con artists learn about their deep dark secrets.

Do this trick in my case, and I want to punch myself in the face when I say this out loud.

I was helping an Irish heiress get her inheritance.

You know, she sucked me in.

And the way she did it looking back was, you know, evil, maniacal and brill She was a new neighbor, moved into my building.

We had a huge problem in our building with our swimming pool.

It got taken away because of a legal fight with another building.

And it was a really nice pool.

It's like twenty swimming pools in one.

It's like part of the amenities the reason we moved into this building.

And she immediately enters my life offering to help.

That is red flag number one.

Most con artists get into the victims' lives offering to help.

Who doesn't like a helper exactly, because when someone's helping you, you immediately like or love them, you know, and then they wave a lot of red flag number two, which my con artist did too kind, too quick.

She's whining and dining my husband and me at fancy restaurants.

She's taken us on vacations to Palm Springs.

She seems like she has all this money.

You know.

Yeah, I want to slow down a little bit because you're getting into the details that I think are so helpful on One of the things I loved about your book and also the podcast is that you take us through those steps.

Because when you just started and you said, you know, I was trying to help an Irish heiress get her into Maiton's back.

If that's all you know, I think most people will be like, eye roll, what are we talking about here?

Yeah?

Right, But the thing is is you really walk us through how you got to this point four years later where it was like so believable, and I think that that's so important to understand.

And so you mentioned like, okay, she came into your life to help with the swimming pool issue, which was a legal issue.

Suddenly you're building no one could use this beautiful, amazing swimming pool which everyone loved using.

And she comes sweeps in and says, I'd love to help talk to us a little bit about like what that feeling is of that meeting whenever you have that neighborhood meeting in your apartment and you watch her, you're watching her like work the room.

Tell us a little bit about that moment and how that felt to you.

I mean, I have a you know, conflicting perspectives now, because I remember what I thought when it was happening, and now, looking back, I know what the truth was.

While it's happening, she appears to be this guardian angel, this savior.

She's dating a married politician.

He was the mayor of an affluent city here in Los Angeles.

He sued our building before.

She says, you know, she says, but none of that was true, but we don't know that.

So she kind of captures the room and they're thirty or forty residents gathered in my living room.

And again this hurts me to admit, you know, I took it upon myself when we lost the pool.

I posted flyers everywhere I went and distributed them to four hundred and forty four units in our apartment building.

I took it upon myself.

That's who I am.

That's who I've always been, you know.

And now I can only imagine when she saw that flyer in our lobby, she must have been licking her chops, thinking to herself, Ah, this guy's a do gooder.

I'm going to get him to do good for me.

Because that's exactly what she went about doing.

I didn't realize, and none of us do as victims or all of us are partial victims.

I guarantee you we are all potential victims.

These people are everywhere.

No one's talking about them, but you know, no one is me, and I'll tell you why.

But looking back, that's all the information she needed about me to know how to get into my life.

And she did so.

That evening, we have this meeting in the living room, that in my living room that I organized.

You know, my husband and I but I organized.

I give him credit, but no, he was just saying, okay, let's do it.

And at the end of the meeting, she says, I want to take you and your husband out for dinner to thank you for organizing all this.

It's amazing.

And she took us to this expensive restaurant that it was like six seven hundred dollars and I tried to pay our share and she wouldn't let me.

No, no, no, And she starts unpacking her story.

She's very wealthy.

She moved here from Ireland.

She had a weird accent, so everything gelled.

When we had dinner at her place one night, she showed us this framed Irish Constitution on her wall.

She had props and she said that one of the signatories something something Clark was one of her great great grands father, the founder of Ireland.

You know.

She started confiding, like, you know, I'm Irish Royalty.

Whatever you do, don't tell the Irish embassy I'm here.

They would be so upset that no one alerted them to my presence.

Please.

So we're like, oh no, no, we're not going to tell anyone.

You know, she asks us to do something.

You know.

So none of that was true, but it made me feel and again I want to punch myself in the face.

It made me feel special that this woman, this wealthy Irish heiress royalty from Ireland, is trusting me and inviting me to her home and I'm a part of Irish history.

Now it's like stupid, stupid, stupid, But that's how I felt at the time.

And that's such a universal desire, is like this human connection and to be made to feel like important or seen or trusted, trusted, and for her to have taken you guys to this like lavish dinner that costs six seven hundred dollars, Like that is wealth to be able to spend that much much money on a dinner.

I mean that I've never like that, you know.

I think that, even though in hindsight it's like, oh, how foolish, because of all of these flags that I'm now aware of.

It's like, if someone spent that kind of money on me at dinner and I offered to pay my share and they refused, I would have every reason to believe what they were telling me.

They're wealthy.

Yeah, yeah, she had all the tricks.

Little did I know the money she used for that dinner and many dinners was from credit cards she had stolen in other people's names.

She'd taken out credit and she was scamming a bunch of other people.

So all the money that she was spending on me, on these vacations and dinners and lavish gifts and stuff, looking back now, I realized it's an investment for her, and it worked.

I paid off big.

While she's whining and dining my husband than me, she has twenty other scams going at the same time.

This is who she is and these people are everywhere.

So it's good I point out the red flags, because God knows, she waived every single one of them, and I had no idea these are a thing.

These people are everywhere but no one's talking about it because you know, it had to take It took me.

It took me to expose her and stop untold numbers of people from falling forth and even initially, and this is what angers me.

So I'm going to try not to shout when it all came crashing down for her and I confronted her and she denied it, and I recorded the confrontation, thinking police are going to want this, not knowing they couldn't give a flying f.

She got a lot of people to believe her.

She was telling people, and a lot of people believed it that I'm this crazy guy in love in love with her, happily married gay man in love with her, and I'm just spurned.

But she didn't feel the same way.

And now I'm angry and trying to take my revenge.

And a lot of people wouldn't talk to me, they would hang up lock me.

It took some convincing, but that's how good she is.

Well, it's like for them to believe you and not her would mean them having to accept that they too had been duped.

Yes, and many of them probably also been conned out of money or whatever else, And that is such a difficult part of like the web that these con artists weave.

Yeah, it's human nature.

They use our human nature against us.

And I'm glad you brought that point up, because I do forget to bring it up when I'm talking about the book.

But it's in the book.

I've investigated by now in the past eight years, literally hundreds of different con artist cases, and I've talked to hundreds of different victims, and there's a subset of victims like you just described.

They cannot come to terms with what happened.

So even though they're calling for my help and advice, they tell me things like, well, I knew something was off, but and I'm like, lady, no, you didn't.

You gave her twenty thousand dollars if you thought something was off, are you giving her money?

Like because of what you just said, they cannot admit to themselves that they fell for it, so that when they tell the story to themselves and to others, well, they knew, Oh I knew something was No, you didn't.

I've got condat a close to one hundred grand I didn't think anything was off.

I fell for it, hard, firm, like I believed it.

Otherwise, why would I part with my money, you know.

But so many people are not in a place psychologically where they can accept that, so they create this story that well I knew, I want to align you.

It's so weird human nature delusion.

It's like too heartbreaking to accept that reality, probably for some people.

And I completely get that because I was in the closet for thirty years.

The first thirty years of my life, I couldn't accept I was gay, and people are like, well, you always knew, I'm like, no, I was dating women.

I had this Disney idea of love, like if I met the right woman, all of this would change.

Like I believe that, even though that's a but it protected me because by the time I did accept I was gay, I nearly took my life.

I didn't want to live.

I came so close.

Oh my gosh, Guardian Angel came out of nowhere to saved my life.

But I'd planned my suit, I'd planned to leave.

I couldn't deal with it.

Yeah, and that's why that delusion was created that I just need to keep dating women and meet the right woman, meet the right woman.

Well, no one's the right woman because I'm a home all.

Yeah, but I couldn't face that until I was thirty, so I don't understand delusion better than most.

Wow, that story hits real home for me.

Just sidebar, because my ex husband is gay and similar thing, and I think whenever I won't go too deep into this, but like whenever he came out and we got divorced, we're still very good friends.

By the way, Oh good people would sort of be like, well, you had to have known, or he had to have known, or some people thought, well, he knew and he was doing something to you, like you know, and I was like, that's just absolutely not the case.

Believe me, I lived through this.

It's not the case.

He loved you.

I know he loved you, and I was in love with a woman who, thank God would not have me because I would have wrecked her life because I'm gay.

But I guarantee you he loved you, and he was trying to make it work and try to not be what he eventually accepted he was.

But it's hard.

Yeah, it's interesting that you make that parallel because it does show how deep those stories that we tell each other ourselves ye can go into our psyche and really affect what we actually consciously believe.

One of the things that that was interesting is you talk about Akham's razor in the book and sort of trying to think about, like, what is the most simple explanation for what could have happened here, right, And you think about that when you're trying to piece together what really had happened and what were the lies and what were the truths.

But what's interesting about that is that, like thinking about you being at her house and seeing this like framed antique Irish document, the mind is not going to go to, well, it's more plausible that she, this woman who's my neighbor and seems like normal and charming and wonderful, has been like secretly like ating this document and put it on her wall.

It's like, no, Like, the most logical explanation is that this is real and this is from her family exactly.

Yeah, And so it's like believable.

Yeah, and like just a piggyback off of what Hannah saying is when I was listening to that story for the first time, I was like, yeah, I could see how someone could fall for that, because if I went home and say, told my husband, our neighbor is this Irish heiress who's having trouble getting her inheritance.

He's a lawyer, he'd probably be like, what.

But I would think if she was trying to con me, she'd come up with something more believable, Yes, more just like common that you hear about.

But instead it's this like over the top situation that who would come up with that if they were trying to convince their neighbor in LA to give them money.

Yeah, and that's the paradox of life.

On the bigger the lie, the more believable, and you would think the opposite would be true.

We're suspecially the little lies.

Because someone tells you, oh, I'm from Ireland, You're not going to doubt that, you just well, now I doubt everything all the time.

But at the time I would okay, like, who's gonna lie about where they're from?

You know, when I met her, she says she has a loopus.

Okay, she's in surgical stockings.

Come to find out she had just gotten LiPo from a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon who she tried to scam as well, but he doesn't want to go on her record.

But she knew that telling me she had lupus A I would believe it, and B that would evoke a lot of sympathy for me.

And it did, and it did, and she was limping, but it was LiPo, not Lupas you know, we just believe when we meet new people, we don't suspect their con artists, but if they're waving the flags as she was, Because I have this fantasy now years later that if I met her today, knowing what I know now about con artists and having written this book, would I be able to discern she's a con artist?

And the answer is absolutely.

Within the first twenty minutes of talking to this woman, she was waving nearly every red flag I ride about.

They were all there, but if you don't know what they look like, you're not going to notice.

It's like if you're standing in Times Square and there are thousands of people walking by you.

You just see like a sea of people.

You don't really notice anything.

But if I tell you, hey, look for the guy with a bowler hat and glasses, immediately you spot that guy.

One hundred fet there he is.

That's the bowler hat.

That's a different kind of hat, I was told.

So the red flags are the same way.

Once I point them out, you can spot them immediately.

She was waving all of it.

The way she really got her hooks into me looking back.

And this was the condos for me.

Is at the time I had come out at thirty and by the time I met her, I hadn't been home for Christmas in like nearly eight years, because part of my family disowned me.

Part of my family said, keep that away from us.

We never want to see you again, you know.

And as much as I thought that didn't bother me, I mean, of course it bothered me.

God up such a we're all in various stages of denial of various times, and then we look back at wait a minute, that was denial.

Of course it bothered me like I was hadn't been home for Christmas.

So as soon as she finds out that detail of my life, she matches it.

She says, well, my family disowned me too, because they're trying to get me disinherited.

And she would go on to waive a lot of red flag number six technology.

She would sell me the story of her family through digital screens, you know, through her cell phone, through her iPad, through her laptop.

I would see texts from her cousins, Finton and the names Finton, Tristan deer Mitt and her uncle Patrich Clark, who dies and when he dies, you know, she is devastated.

I find her bent over, crying and I hold her and her tears wet my shirt and I'm rocking her, telling her it's okay, It's going to be okay.

But none of that was real.

Like her uncle was invented, her family was invented.

She was not from Ireland, and yet she's such a brilliant actress.

She's crying, and even though I'm a gay guy, I still a woman.

Crying has such power over me, like I will do anything to help her, you know.

So at that point, we weren't just two friends in La.

We were like two discarded souls with our families on the other side of the world who didn't want us.

She became like my sister.

You know.

We would end phone calls I love you, I love you, like she was family.

That's how she got in, you know, That's when I started to really care about her, And that's when I was so incensed.

God, the family is trying to destroy her.

It's wrong, and I'm gonna do good or I'm gonna help her.

I'm so angry when I think about it, because she knew all that, Like she knew exactly how to manipulate me with the tears and the you know, the family discarded her and yeah, and it worked, it worked great, It worked great until it didn't.

So the short version is I start helping her.

Her family makes up these you know, they pay off a dirty distant attorney.

And this is around the time one of the former das was like charged with a crime, so like it was newsy, you know, like, oh, like another one.

Okay, so I read about this one who's going to jail, and now your family paid off another DA to invent a case on her so they could get her disinherited because there's a clause and then will in her uncle's will that if any heir is convicted of a felony, day four to fifty inheritance.

So it made sense to me, and she was standing to inherit close to ten million US dollars the equivalent.

The part of the estate was a twenty five million euro estate, and at the time she was going to get like five or seven million, which in American dollars at the time was like close to ten million.

So I was a news reporter for ten years.

I would see stories all the time about husbands who killed their wives from a million dollars insurance policies.

And here we're talking about close to ten million dollars, Like, what wouldn't someone do to get that money.

Of course they're going to try to make up charges and get her arrested and get her whatever.

So red flog number three drama, drama, drama.

The minute all this drama started happening, I rallied to her side to help her, and the family paid off for a DA to freeze her bank account.

I started loading her money to live on, you know.

And I didn't think anything of it.

I was so confident she'd pay me back because another red flag I write about in the book Red Flag number eight be wedding.

And I see this again and again.

A lot of romance scams, a lot of investment scams.

The con artists will give you a little money up front, you know, if it's an investment scam, they'll give you a little return on the investment.

In this case, with my con artist, she gets arrested.

I bail her out of jail, cost almost five thousand dollars cash and she pays me back the next day.

So immediately I felt confident loading her more money down the line.

And while you know she's bleeding me dry, I have no doubt she's going to pay me back.

I have no doubt this inheritance is coming.

I have no doubt everything's going to be fine.

I'm helping this woman.

I feel justified, and I keep doubling down.

Never four seconds I think I was getting scammed until the second I realized I was.

Yeah.

And also, like you said, you were like family at this point where you felt like family, And I think that puts things in perspective because I think a lot of people would do anything for their like there's someone at least someone in their life where they think, like I would literally do anything for them, you know, because the trust is so deep and the bond is so deep, and she was such a craftswoman at being able to create that with you, And so what did it take for you to start questioning it?

Because it just seems like the bond was so strong and she had really like I mean, she was crying like that is just so sick.

I know, what did it take for you to finally be like, wait a minute, this might not be what she says.

So her last ask for money came when she hired a good lawyer in LA and he was working this case that her family made up against her.

And I'm believing everything because she's showing me emails and texts, never for a second that I think she invented created Google accounts to email and text herself to show me, Like, who does that?

Yeah, professional con artists do that too, So yeah, that's the red flag of technology.

If someone is using technology digital screens to back up what they're saying, be suspicious.

That's weird.

Regular people don't do that.

So I believed.

You know that she needed the last fifty thousand dollars to make this case go away, and court costs and lawyer's fees and lawyers are expensive.

Like that didn't strike me as odd, So I let her charge my credit cards fifty thousand dollars.

Wasn't worrying at all because now she's going to get the inheritance.

It's coming, she wins.

We had a champagne dinner to celebrate, like good times ahead.

And then I go to pick her up for brunch one day and she's crying real tears, so I knew it was real.

She tells me the judge is angry at her because he considers her charging my credit cards to pay her lawyer and court thing money laundering.

I'm like, money laundering?

Is that?

What money is it?

At that point, I haven't been to court in like twenty something years, and when I was there it was to fight a traffic ticket.

Like, I don't know anything about the criminal court system.

I'm a TV producer.

I don't know.

I'm not involved in that world, so I don't know.

So I accepted what she said, and she said the judge's going to punish her with thirty days in jail to teach her a lesson.

It's not a felony to stop on the risk to teach her lesson thirty days in jail, you know.

I'm like, wow, okay, well you'll be out in thirty days and you'll get your inheritance.

Yes, everything's great.

Yes, So she goes to jail.

She calls me collect from jail every day.

Two weeks in.

I'm like, I'm gonna come see you.

She's like, no, no, no, I don't even see me like this.

I'm so embarrassed.

Well, she's like my sister.

Of course I'm going to go see her.

So I don't know if you've ever visited anyone in jail, but in La County, you have to log onto the website.

You have to create like a Facebook profile.

You have to upload your driver's license and create a name and a picture.

And then after you do all of that and they approve, you have to click on the inmate you want to visit.

And when I clicked on her name, that's when what she was in jail for came up in black and white.

It said felony, grand theft.

Not money wondering exactly, and.

It was a felony.

And she assured me it wasn't a felony because if it's a felony, she doesn't get her inheritance.

So I would still stupidly believe there's inheritance.

At this point, I'm like, oh, no, she's not gonna get inheritance.

But I'm like, grand theft, that's not what she told me.

What you know, I get like a heat washes over me.

At the time, I was producing a show called Booze Traveler for the Travel Channel, and when I find all this out, on my computer screen and that's all it says, felony, grand theft.

I don't know what is it.

So I printed out and I tell my boss.

I'm like, I got to go.

I have an emergency.

He's like, go.

So I go to the courthouse and I go to the clerk and I hand them the paper.

I need all the case files on this and they're like all of them.

I'm like yeah, And it costs like one hundred dollars because they got to make copies of everything.

And it took a while, but I got it.

And I sat there in the corner of the courtroom, hands trembling, just reading everything.

Just unraveling everything.

Yeah.

Well everything about this case, right, everything I was reading was brand new to me.

Yeah.

So in going over all those court records, I realized she lied about everything.

Like she pled guilty to stealing two hundred thousand dollars from the travel agency she worked for, and she scammed the money from me to pay restitution in that case, to convince the judge that she's good for it and she's going to pay the rest back.

So that fifty grand she got from me was to pay restitution.

And that's why she only got a thirty day sentence.

She was looking at five years otherwise.

But at the time that you're going through all of these court records, she's still in jail.

She's in jail, right, So you're.

Like, okay, now I'm understanding that things are not adding up right.

And by this point I went home and just collapsed in my husband's arms, crying.

I didn't know she was a professional con artist on the running from authorities in the UK, but I did know she lied to me to get this money.

Now we're screwed.

How could I let this happen?

But at the same time, I have this naive belief that I'm going to start gathering evidence police are going to do something.

I was the baker and into the woods in college.

I can act, so I'm going to act like everything's fine.

So when she would call me collect she's still in jail.

Oh, yeah, everything's fine.

I'm coming to pick you up.

So she gets out to her word.

You know, in thirty days.

Two weeks later, she's out and I pick her up.

But I'm recording the whole thing because I think, ooh, I'm going to get a confession.

But you know, when I confront her she denies it, and she starts tearing up.

But that's not true, Jonathan.

I'm like, you've been lying to us the whole time.

That's not true.

Like that court thing you were paying rest that you that's the true, Jonathan.

That's look, I have the records here.

She looked away.

I'm like, I'm going to go to police.

She's like, you do what you need to do.

But that's not true, that's you know.

And I'm like, well, why are you going to pass back?

I'll pay you back, but you know, it's like and then I realized I'm never going to get paid back.

You know.

In the confrontation, I thought if I threatened to go to the police, she'll pay me back.

She said she would.

But then at that point I'm like, no, you're not.

This is a scam.

Like I didn't know there were so many other victims out there.

I just knew this, you know, based on your past actions.

You were just scamming me the whole time.

What did it feel like to be sitting in the car with her, this person who the last time you physically saw her, she was your friend, someone you trusted enough to loan all of this money too.

And then to be sitting next to her and seeing someone totally different.

I was in a space where I immediately understood murder.

I understood it.

I wanted to kill her.

I wanted to bash her head in a wall.

So here's the thing about me.

I'm a vegetarian, the let live.

I take the spider and release them outside.

I get a cup and a piece of paper, like, I don't kill anything.

But in the months after realizing what happened, I would have these detailed murder fantasies of me strangling her to death and watching the life drift out of her eyes and enjoying it.

Of me throwing her off the top of our building.

These are daydreams I'm having and they're bringing me joy.

And when I told my best friend Evan about this, the look on his face was like what the He's like, dude, you need help, Like you need to talk to someone, and I'm like, I am talking to someone you like.

So but I started looking into getting help because this is not the person I knew.

And the frightening thing was I enjoyed it.

It brought me relief, you know.

So I was going to see a shrink and I start researching and I come to find out this is a normal reaction for victims to fantasize about hurting their perpetrate.

It happens to most victims of every kind of crime, attempted, murder, rape, whatever.

There's a period victims go through.

Mine lasted three or four months where you have routine fantasies of hurting them or killing them, and they eventually went away.

I'm not a murderer, but in that moment when I picked her up, I was enraged, enraged.

I'm still I'm a human.

I'm not going to do anything that I'm going to go to jail for, so I held back.

But it's weird we so often judge people, well, how could you do that?

How could you?

You know, when you're in a position when you get royally fed over and the emotions takeover.

I get it.

I get how I could have killed her and I would have felt justified in the moment.

I would have felt justified.

You deserve this, what you did to me.

But no murder is wrong.

Someone scams, you don't kill them because you want to believe me.

I know, I know the feeling.

I mean, I appreciate the honesty though, because that's like as you said, what a lot of people go through.

And that's like sounds like a very intense thing to feel an experience.

And I mean that tape that you have of her, you know, dodging, it's not true, it's not true.

No, no, no, it feels so in line with con artists.

It feels I mean, I've spoken with a few people jailhouse calls of people who have scammed people, and that feels very similar.

Not admitting anything, always trying to say no, I'm the victim.

No, it's you're misunderstanding.

I don't know if it would have mattered, because she's already done the horrible thing to you.

But I imagine that maybe in your you were hoping for a different reaction, Like if she had just been like, oh my gosh, you're so right, so I did do this.

I did it, and actually just admitted to what she did.

Would that have changed anything for you?

I mean, you're very perceptive.

Yeah, you hit it on the head.

Absolutely, That's what I wanted.

I wanted an apology.

It frightens me to say this out loud.

Had she have apologized and tried to make good or whatever, I would not have gone to police.

I wouldn't have.

I would have foolishly thought, she'll pay us back and we'll try to work on it whatever, And that would have really deluded my criminal case because the time it takes for you to go to police after something happens, if it's a long the longer that time is they hold it against you.

Well, why did you report this?

It happened, you know, and there's a statute of limitations.

So thank god in the moment, Yeah, I was expecting an apology.

I would have loved an apology, an admission of what she did, you know, anyone who's wronged does.

But thank god she didn't, because yeah, that gave me the embetist to go to police.

Who I go to police and after I explain everything, they tell me, well, there's nothing we can do.

It's not a crime.

And I'm like, squat, now, well it's not a crime.

You gave her the money, And I'm like, really, so it's not a crime.

No, it's not a crime.

You know, good luck in civil court you can hire a lawyer and sue her, but there's nothing criminal here.

Good luck.

And as I'm walking away, I'm just staggering, like in a post war haze, like, and I put my hands on the glass door of the LAPD Downtown office.

As I'm pushing it open, I call it my guardian Angel.

Something welled up and shouted in my brain.

No, no, no, no, this cannot be true.

No no.

And I turn back around and I go back to that cop at the desk, and I'm like, this makes no sense.

It's not a crime because I gave her the money.

What about Bernie Madoff?

They gave him the money, but he's convicted, he's in jail at the time he was in jail, he sits dide, what about the scams?

Were they pretend to be from the irs and scam the elderly out of thousands?

That's a crime, right, yes?

So what about when a guy with a gun holds up for seven to eleven the cashier gives them the money.

How is giving the money means it's not a crime.

That makes no sense.

No no, And I start dumping out all the evidence I have at a satchel, and I'm like, phone records, emails, text messages, bank records, credit cards, like these are lies, she told me, you know.

And immediately in that moment, the officer seems pressed and he pauses and looks at me, and he's like, what do you do for a living?

And I snap back, I'm a TV producer.

He's like, any shows I would have heard of?

Oh God, So I pulled out the big one.

I'm like, yeah, I did Shark Tank season four, and immediately his eyes light up.

He's like Shark Tank and he's like, I've been trying to pitch something to the Sharks for years.

This is like the most Los Angeles twist of all time.

Yes.

Yes, And in that moment, even though I'm violating all the paperwork I signed to work on Shark Tank, in that moment, I'm like, I can help you, help me, I'll help you.

He's like, Okay, here's what you got to do.

He's like, I'll take a police report, but you got to call about your case every single day.

And I'm like, what do you mean.

He's like, you know, because I was of the mind you follow police report.

It's in their hands.

They're gonna handle it.

No, that's not how it works, he said.

After you leave, by the end of the day, eight five hundred other police reports will be on top of yours in this pile.

Every time you call about your case, it gets taken from the bottom and placed on the top, and there's some discussion about you and your case with other officers, like, oh, Jonathan Wallon's calling again.

So that was the best advice I could have ever received from anyone.

He never called me to help get him on Shark ten.

I wonder what his idea was.

I don't know, but I would have helped them.

Yeah, listen, I'm a man of my word.

I would have absolutely helped them, because you know, you scratch my back out, scratch yours.

And I called about my case every day, and by the third week it got assigned to a detective.

And then I get a call from the detective and I make an appointment to come down and interview with him, and then he calls me.

He's like, I can't do the interview because I got reassigned.

Now your case is being assigned to an officer who's trying to make detective like I inferred, it's the dunce of the police station.

I'm like great, So then I go and talk to the officer use me for hours.

I didn't know he's recording it, but he did.

And then he calls me days later.

It's like I watched your video of the interview with my sergeant and we believe you.

You like, there was a video.

Yeah.

So at that point, I'm like, you know what, I can't.

You guys are useless.

Like I started my own investigation.

I started a blog telling my story, warning people.

I didn't know other victims are out there, but I knew she's probably, you know, trying to shake down other people.

So I just said, whatever she tells you, don't give her money.

You know, this is what she looks like, this is her name, blah blah.

And I start getting contacted by tons of other people she scammed, and some with different names.

So every time I find a new name she used, she's like Maryann Clark, Marianne Welch, Like I would put it on the blog so it's findable in a search, you know, a keyword.

So I start hearing from all these victims.

Every time I hear from a victim, I call the office.

I'm like, here's another victim, here's ano victim, here's another victim, here's another victim.

At one point and god, you know, I feel bad bashing the LAPD.

But then I don't feel bad because I live through this.

At one point, the sergeant calls me, hey, stop giving out our number.

These aren't helping, and I'm like, what do you mean, Like there are other victims of the woman who scamed me, they have nothing to do with your case.

Like, tell them to go follow their own police report.

So cut to we're a month away from the trial and the DA that's handling the trial asked me, are there any other victims?

And I'm like, yeah, tons.

He's like, well, why didn't the police investigate them?

I'm like, I know.

The sergeant said, they have nothing to do with my case.

Now that's infuriating, and.

The DA took his glasses off and it's like, they have everything to do with your case.

I'm like, I know, that's what I said.

It's like, but I was just a victim of the system.

A guy with the badge is telling you this is how it works.

You just accept it.

But now I know better, and it's in the book what you got to do.

So when police turn you away, which nine out of ten victims who call me for help, it's because police have turned them away.

You can't just go show up, boohoo, cry you got scanned.

You have to think of as a college speech class presentation you're going to make.

You've got to have props.

You got to have evidence.

You've got to have witness statement, you've got to write up affidavit.

You got to have you know, And I say this in the book, Pitching a criminal case to police is like pitching a television show to a network executive.

You got to make it sexy and fun and intriguing, and you've got to be the protagonist.

And you've got to have a beginning, middle, and end.

You got to rehearse it before you go.

You got to put on a show for the cop.

And then he'll take a report.

And I see this again and again in the cases I've worked on.

They turn the victim away.

I help the victim create a good case.

They go back and they take a report.

But nobody's telling victims this.

I am, but this is not well known.

You think you go and tell what happened, they'll take a report.

No, if it's a scam, nine out of ten times they tell you go to civil court.

And that's not because they don't care.

They do care, they're just overwhelmed.

They got murders and rapes, and especially in a big city like La they're overwhelmed.

So if they can send you to another place that helps them in their job, that's one less thing they have to do there.

You know, I love that you focus so much on that in this book and that you like really go through a plan of how you could put something like this together, how you could take it.

I mean the amount of people that even Patient I have had email us saying I was scammed?

What do I do?

I need help?

The police?

They told me it's a civil matter.

And we've talked with people who do take it to civil courts.

They win the suit, well they're not getting that restitution, and then that person is still romping around the world scamming other people and they feel so hopeless.

And you've had I'm sure so many people reach out to you.

You talk about that in the book, like after you have come out public with your story and the podcast, do you have people reaching out to you all the time?

And I just love that you get involved and that you've created this resource to help people because it does seem so difficult.

And also, you know, people are at varying degrees of heartbroken and financially broken when they're having to take these steps.

Was that one of the reasons you wrote the book, or what was the impetus of creating this sort of handbook for people.

That's another great question.

Yeah, so I had never planned to write a book.

I'm not an author.

I'm a TV producer.

So my story goes public.

My con artist gets convicted.

You know, there's a trial and she's convicted, and it was such a healing experience for me watching all that go down, being a part of that testifying against her.

As she sat there in court wondering, I'm wondering to myself, I'm looking.

I didn't want to eyeball the jury to make them uncomfortable, but in my peripheral I'm looking.

All right, it's mostly young men, young women, a couple of older people.

Okay, are they believing me?

Because she never testified, and looking back, her lawyer brought up a lot of reasonable doubt.

It brilliantly hats off, you know, he really defended her.

Well, he said, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, John the wall, And there's a TV producer.

I am a TV producer.

That's true.

You notice the camera in the courtroom.

The camera is recording everything.

Because Jonathan got permission Jonathan's recording everything.

That's true.

I applied to get a camera in the courtroom.

Thank god the judge allowed at fifty to fifty.

Sometimes I do, sometimes you don't.

Thank god they did.

Because Jonathan's making a documentary.

Jonathan's making a movie.

That's true.

I am, so those three things are true.

Here's the lie.

Well, Jonathan's making up all this stuff because he wants a good movie.

He's in Hollywood and he wants a good movie.

And I'm like, that's not true.

I'm not making up anything.

But if you're a jury and you're like, that's true, that's true, that's true, maybe he is making everything up.

So that was a real concern of mine that the jury might believe that, because a reasonable doubt is a hell of a space you can drive a truck through.

Like what's reasonable doubt?

It could be so many things, and he was raising a lot of reasonable doubt.

But the thing that I believe sunk Mary Anne Smith in court was she couldn't find a single solitary person, not a family member, not a friend, not a coworker, no one to get up on that stand and testify on her behalf to say good things about her not one, and if you're the jury, you got to be asking yourself.

No one wanted to put their reputation on the line to say she's no one, So evidence be damned.

In my mind, looking back at how it all went down, it was a three day trial.

I think that did it because at least in other instances, when you see the criminal their mother, Oh my daughter's a good their father, their friend, their their husband, their boyfriend, whatever, she's a really good person, she tries to There was none of that for her.

So that's very telling, you know.

And it wasn't for lack of trying.

She tried.

You know, people would call me like, hey, they asked me if I could testify Maryanne's behalf today because they don't know that this person's been in touch with me and know she's a con.

You know.

But yeah, that did her in.

So what happened was my case exploded.

I did a podcast, Queen of the Con.

I was in the Hollywood Reporter, I was in the New York Times, Like my story kind of went viral, and all of a sudden, hundreds and hundreds of victims of other cons start reaching out to me for help, asking, you know, you've inspired me.

I want to go after my con artists.

Now what do I do?

Can you help me?

What do I do?

Can you help me?

What do I do?

Can you help me?

So not knowing any better and feeling like I want to put to use all this stuff I've learned in dealing with the system.

It took me two years to get that conviction.

Two years, and it was an obsession.

A few months in.

I had to hide it from my husband because he would get mad when he saw me online like working the case, you know, and I had to hide it from my friend.

Everyone thought I was crazy, and everyone told me, you need to let this go, you need to let us go.

And I pretended to let it go.

I had to pretend to let it go to have peace in my home.

But I didn't.

I never let it go.

I was obsessed, and that's what it takes.

And I was obsessed.

So my story exploded.

People start calling me for help, and I start helping.

You know, some people play golf on the weekends.

I started hunting con artists and I start looking into these cases, and after like I don't know, a few dozen, it begins to dawn on me, like wait a minute, wait, a minute.

All of these techniques in all these disparate cases that all these disparate con men and con women are using on their victims are identical to what mine did to me.

Like they're identical.

So I just started making notes.

Oh, offer to help, Oh too kind, too quick.

Oh drama, drama.

Oh they isolated them.

Oh they pretended they were better than them.

Oh they use technology a lot.

Oh they had a good day job.

A lot of con artists have a good day job.

And that's to make you think, oh, there's no way this is a scam.

They have a good day job, Like there must be real.

There's one case I write about the book, The con artists worked in the mayor's office.

That was wild.

How could she be a con arnist?

She's in the mayor's office.

That case is still ongoing.

I've spent like close to ten grand of my own money on that case so far.

I'm not letting that woman get away if it's the last thing I do.

But anyway, I wrote an article for the huff Post.

I wrote something that eventually became an article for the huff Post.

You know, at that point, I only had eight of the red flags, and I got a call from a big time literary agent, Jenna land Free with folio and she's like, hey, I loved your article.

I think it would make a great book.

She's like, I bet you I could sell a book like this if I sell it, can you write it?

So I'm like sure, not thinking she could sell it, but then she sold them like she's so good, you know, she's amazing.

And one thing I want to touch on that's one of your red flags is drama.

Drama drama, which is such a catchy way of putting it, but it's something you know, Hannah, and I see this all the time where the con artist creates this something is always wrong, something is always happening, and the person that they're conning.

The purpose of this is you're just preoccupying, so they don't know up from down.

They can't assess whether or not you're even telling the truth because they're too busy trying to save you from some chaotic situation exactly.

And what they also do, and it's so easy to do, but regular people never think of doing this.

This con artist who's now your new friend.

If they find out you had a bad breakup, you know, they'll say, hey, I saw your boyfriend parked upside of your place last night, like for two hours.

Like I was going to call you, but I didn't want to frighten you.

But yeah, what's going on?

So that's not true, but you have no way of knowing that's not true.

So now you're scared of the boyfriend.

And again, con artists don't outsmart you, they outfeel you.

And fear is a powerful feeling.

And if you're busy being scared, you're not thinking with your intellect.

You know you're going to get scammed.

This is how they manipulate you.

Yeah, they drama, drama, and the way I read it when I recorded the audiobook is red Flag number three drama, drama, drama, perfect, get the audiobooks.

Yeah, it's so powerful, and I'm glad you both have experienced talking to victims and you concur it's a powerful, powerful trap that kind of gets you off kilter and you don't know up from down, go in or come in, and you're that much more likely to believe the next thing.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah, So that's why I wrote the book.

It was an article.

Now it's a book, and I am very proud of it.

I've read it eight million times because God the process of editing, and after the publisher has their way with it, they want me to read in the final time.

It takes a village, you know, because we're still catching typos up until prints.

But I'm very proud of it.

I think.

Yes, the last two chapters I explain what to do if you've been conned, but the whole book is how to not get caught.

These are the red flags, and when I point them out, they're easy to spot, you know, the TMI technique.

Oh, red flag number twelve, Stories from far Away Places.

This is what my con artist was waving immediately.

You know.

Con artists like to snow you with story raised from far away places because they're hard to validate.

They're hard to prove false.

Like I was on the Olympic team in nineteen eighty eight when I was a kid in France.

I was like a junior on the on the Olympic team in France.

Can you prove that's fake?

No?

They use human nature against us, human nature being what it is.

If we can't prove something is false, we just accept it as true.

And that's how they live and breathe life into their stories.

Stories from far away places, so you know, if they're offering to help you, they're too kind, too quick.

There's a lot of drama.

They're isolating you from people.

They're telling you, oh, this person said this about you, and don't talk to them.

They're getting you not to talk to people.

That's a huge red flag.

You know, they're using digital screens technology to sell their stories.

You know, there's an element of scarcity in a lot of these cons You got to act quick.

I need it by this date.

The IPO is going public on Friday, so if you want in, I need that twenty thousand by Friday.

Like scarcity.

You know, they're all very effective tools, but once I point them out, God are they easy to spot.

And I enjoy spotting them.

In every case.

Your book it's like if someone has someone in their life that they feel like is being conned and they're not seeing it, your book is a really safe space for that person to come to their own conclusion.

Yes, and I also really appreciate how digestible it is.

You know, so many books that analyze human behavior through anyone lens can be you know, maybe a little more complicated or disorder to get through.

But yours, I think by way of great storytelling also makes it a really rivoting read along with being super informative, and I was so happy to have read it.

That means so much to me.

Thank you so much.

You know.

The more I go along on this journey, I feel like I was in the perfect position to do this work.

Why.

I mean, when I got conned, it felt like the end of the world.

I was so angry at everything and everyone and God.

I was angry at God.

I would ask, how could you let this have to me?

I was just trying to help her, you know, like I felt forsaken.

And I'm not religious like everyone in LA.

I'm spiritual, but I believe in God, and I felt forsaken.

But as time has passed and what I've been able to do with it, I realized what a tremendous blessing it's been.

I was the chosen one.

I was neo.

I was meant to stop her.

No one had stopped her until I came along.

No one everyone limps away quietly into the night, no one says anything, no one does anything.

I'm the guy to do it.

In the same way, I was the guy to help this woman get her inheritance.

I'm the guy to stop her, and not only stop her, expose her and avoid other people from getting cont One of the most thrilling days of my life still to this day.

One of the first victims I found, who found me before the conviction, before she was charged.

She got evicted because she had convinced our landlord she had cancer and couldn't pay rent and was in the high spittle getting surgery and treatments, and she had skated by not paying rent for six months.

And once I exposed her, I went to the landlord said, hey, this woman scammed me.

And she's like, oh, but she has cancer.

I'm like, no, she doesn't.

She don't got no cancer.

No, that's cod.

She started evicting her.

So at this point Mayor met someone on Tinder, an engineer in Newport Beach, a guy named Bob.

You know, wealthy guy owns two homes.

And again, once I point this out, you see how similar the paths are.

The first date, he confides in her that he's not happy with his child custody arrangement with his kids and his ex wife and he wishes he had a better arrangement of the custody.

And she says, well, you know, this is meant to be because I happened to be a child custody investigator for the courts.

Oh my god, and I can help you.

Red Flag number one.

They offer to help.

And think of Bob.

Those two kids, it was like a seven and nine year old boy and a girl.

They mean the world to him.

So now his intellect is taking a back seat.

His emotion has taken over, and he invites this con artist into his life.

She quickly moves into his home, she starts spending time with his kids, and she creates this crazy story.

She creates all these characters similar to me, but it was a private investigator.

It was a local district attorney.

She's impersonating all these people over text and email and showing Bob, your wife, she says, is running adsm sex club out of her home while the kids are sleeping.

Here's evidence, we've tapped her phones.

Like this is going to help your custody arrangement.

And Bob is terrified but thrilled because now he's going to get full custody of his kids, or so he thinks.

Well, obviously none of these characters were real.

There was no private investigator, there was no disattorney.

Bob's ex wife is not running adsam sex club out of her home.

What the kids are sleeping, that's all drama, drama, drama to get Bob to do what she wants.

So the scam from Bob was it was a tweak on the inheritance scam for me.

She loves her family.

In this scam, she's getting twenty five million dollars in an inheritance.

It's coming any day.

So she's going to buy a house with twelve million.

So she gets into Bob's land rover.

You know, he's a big successful guy, and they get a real turn and they start looking at these expensive homes at Newport Beach and she's going to buy one.

She picks the one she's gonna buy, and she tells Bob, I'm gonna put your name on it with me, like I want to own this with you, And Bob's like, no, I can't let you do that up.

If our relationship goes south, I'll own half your home.

That's not right because Bob's a good guy.

So she's like, well, if you want to make it right, just add my name to the titles of your two homes and it will be equal.

So she draws up paperwork to add his name.

Bob brings his kids to pick out their bedrooms.

She put in a written offer on the house, like there is no money, but she's gotten everyone to believe it this far because she needs to get her name added to his home.

So right around the time this is all happening, Bob's ex wife suddenly gets curious, who the hell is this woman, Mayor Smith spending all this time around my kids.

I want to know about her?

So what does she do?

She does what we all do, and we want to know something.

She googles.

She googles Mayor Smith and up pops my blog and he is shot.

She prints out the blog.

Mayor is like living in his house.

At this point, she calls Bob and she's like, hey, I need to see you right away.

Oh okay, me and Mayor will come over.

No, no, no, let's meet in the park.

Don't bring Mayor.

I need you alone.

Okay, okay.

So they meet in the park.

The ex wife gives Bob the blog and says, this is the woman who's around our kids.

She's a con artist.

Bob's like, there's no, no, this can't this can't be.

So Bob takes the printed out blog back home.

He comes to the door and Bob hands it to her and says, what's this And in true con artist fashion, they know, let the gigs up.

They know.

She didn't say a word.

She just walked right past him, ran over to her car and drove away.

She left her shit there.

She was scared.

It's utterly terrible, but like, oh my god, what a story.

Wow.

So the phone call I got from Bob the first time he called, he was crying like, thank you, you saved me, You saved me, thank.

You, because he hadn't put her name on the houses yet.

No, but the paperwork was drawn up, and he says he was never going to do it.

But I'm like, but your kids picked out their bedrooms, dude, you brought your freaking kids.

So again it's a little of oh I knew, No, you didn't.

Your kids picked out there, Like that's crazy.

It can be so hard to distant yourself from like believing.

You know, oh I know.

But the love I have for Bob because he wound up testifying in my case, he wound up testifying and he helped put her in jail, and he supported like he was so still to this day.

He sent me the screen grab he pre ordered the book.

He's so excited.

He's such a great, amazing guy, and it just fills me with a sense of purpose, Like I feel like this is my mission, you know, in the same way my blog saved him, I want to save everyone.

I want to point out Mayor Smith is not an anomaly.

There are versions of her everywhere.

The problem is there aren't versions of me everywhere.

The vast majority of victims don't say anything.

And I've wrestled with this question because I get asked it all the time, but why are you different?

At first, I thought it has something to do with me being gay, coming out at thirty and having to accept that people aren't going to be happy, like I can't care what people think.

Yes, that's part of it.

That's part of my not caring what people think.

That's part of that where that comes from.

But I wish this in the book, but it's not.

But this is the truth that I figured out recently, So you know.

I have a degree in broadcast journalism.

I was a TV reporter for ten years.

My first on air job was in San Antonio.

I was hired at KVB in San Antonio KBBTV, and my job was to do something fun.

I was a feature reporter, so like fun interesting stories.

So my first night on the air, I've never been on the air.

I'm like twenty four to twenty five years old.

I'm a kid.

My first on air job, I go out and shoot this funny story interview these people I crafted.

I edited into a two minute piece.

We call it a package of the news business.

And then I fronted in the studio and the anchors are laughing and clapping, and I walked back into the newsroom and all the producers and the guy who hired me, Alan Little God Rest his soul, and my executive producer, Greg Kelkin, passed away to God Rest of Soul, applauding, I'm like king in the world.

I'm like, yes, this is what I'm like.

I'm so good, like I feel like God, I'm like, I've never had a highlight that.

And then a minute later, I get over to my desk and I sit down and I get my first viewer voicemail.

It has rung in my head ever since I got it.

That voicemail.

This angry woman, Texas woman, you ball headed, mother fucking faggot.

You so fucking ugly?

How the hell you get on TV?

You ball headed, mother fucking faggot.

Wow.

I was devastated.

I was devastated, and I had this crisis of faith, like I can't do this job?

What am I doing here?

I went to bed that night, coiled in the fetal position, crying like I gotta quit.

I can't do I can't do this job.

So over the ensuing weeks, I'm like what am I?

Am I this brilliant new reporter who's funny and gets a standing ovation in the news room?

Or am I this guy too ugly to be on TV?

And like what am I?

So?

What a blessing that event in my life was because I quickly figured out the only way I'm going to be able to function.

I can't listen to anyone.

I can't seek anyone's opinion.

You'll ask one question and get ten answers.

I can't.

And I'm a kid, I'm twenty, I'm in my early twenties learning this, Thank God.

And as I went on in television and I got another job at the CBS station Houston, I had that mentality like I don't care what you think.

Not only do I not care what you think.

It's not even occurring to me to care, because people ask me, weren't you scared to go to police?

Like, weren't you worried what they would think?

No, it literally never occurred to me.

What are they going to think?

I don't care?

Never occurred to me.

And the reason that is is because of these, you know, foundational experiences I had as a kid, Like that's how I had to be.

So that's what makes me intrinsically different than most other victims.

They were never on the air in San Antonio to get those conflicting what are you the second coming of Christ?

Or you too damn ugly and stupid?

Like what are you?

You know?

God?

So that was such a blessing.

And again I just believe I'm in the perfect place, the perfect time, doing the perfect thing.

I'm meant to be here.

I'm meant to share what I've learned.

And I still can't believe how has there not been a book about these red flags before I got to be the guy to write it.

Yeah, I guess so, because I've read every con artist book and they're all so victim pejorative, like some of them outright make fun of victims, and I'm like, how can you be so stupid?

Like, No, there's a system that they use and this is what it looks and sounds like, it feels like and until it's happening to you and they got into your emotion, like with Bob, I can help you get a better custody arrangement.

Who doesn't want that?

Like they offer to help and you love them, They get you to love them.

Love is the most powerful force there is in the universe.

People kill for love, people die for love, and a con artist's job is to get you to love them or love the thing they're creating, because once you're making decisions on that love, you're not the straight you're going to get con.

Yeah, it's so great.

It's such a great resource because I think a lot of people are afraid to go to the police or just maybe wouldn't even know where to start, and the idea of trying to figure that out can feel overwhelming.

And so who you are and your life experiences like all aligned to where you were able to really take this on and so grateful that you were able to get justice in your case and then as well like support other people and you know, it's interesting thinking about you know, you mentioned the same thing that sort of got you conned in some ways, is this desire to help her, this Irish heiress is also the same thing that your desire to help other people, but not in like a scammy way.

And it makes me think about how the thing that makes people susceptible to being conned is their humanity in so many ways, it's just like human nature, it's psychology.

It's the good parts of people too, right, the things that like they don't actually want to erase about themselves.

What are they supposed to do?

Never love someone again, never trust someone again?

Like what kind of life is that?

But I like the clarity of how you've pointed out these red flags and you point out that, you know, maybe just one of them might not be a red flag on its own.

But really think critically about if someone that your meeting has like three or four or five, and you.

Know, yeah, if they're five, it's a scam.

Is there five?

If you've identified five of these red flags, yeah, you're gonna find You're gonna find a bunch more walk away, get away, ruck away.

Yeah.

So it's nice that there's these like tools that are clear and that the answer is not just don't ever care about anyone again?

You know, yeah, because people ask me the all the time.

Well, it's ruined your trusting people.

I'm like it has, but I'm glack.

I now I pretend to trust everyone, but secretly I'm verifying.

You know.

Yeah, I'm still a nice person.

I still make friends, but I'm suspicious.

The other night, I was dragged this cocktail party in the valley, which in La, it's like, if you live in La, you gotta go to the valleys over the hill.

It's a trek.

So I'm at this cocktail party and this new couple comes in.

They're friends of a friend who came and it's a very good looking couple, men and woman.

They look like an OnlyFans couple.

And you know, they introduced themselves to us briefly, and they're retired.

They're from Arizona.

They came here to retire in La.

And that was weird.

But okay, you're retiring in LA.

But then because of that weirdness and they were hot, I paid attention.

I tried to eavesdrop.

That's just me.

No one else did I did.

This is a weird story that you're retiring.

You guys are in you like early thirties or late thirties, Like retiring, it's possible.

Sure.

So then as I'm eavesdropping, I hear them telling three other origin stories some people.

They tell he works in security at the mall and she has as she does hair and makeup, Like, well, wait a minute, that's not what they told me.

So now I'm obsessed with these people because I'm not very good at cocktail parties.

I only like people I love, like don't I don't want to meet you people.

So now I have something to do.

I start like getting a drink and hanging around and listening to Yeah.

But I didn't have the bandwidth to take on that case.

But I told the person who through the party, I'm like, listen, these people, how do you know them?

Oh, they're friends and blah blah.

Well something's up, Like why would they tell three different origin stories?

Only a scammer does that.

They're hiding something, they're lying about themselves, and they're so good looking.

A lot of scammers are good looking because they learn to use it and work it.

So I don't know what the scam is, but stay away from these people.

And I left, but I guarantee you there was some kind of con going on.

I also think, like in your life, when you meet people and you develop friendships, non con artist people quote like normal people, they I think are usually pretty comfortable with like trust is earned and not over asking and like you said, over sharing.

I mean, if you meet someone and they immediately like need something from you or or want to help the bist problem in your life, as you've said, immediately with you know yeah TMI, the.

Help is fake, you know mayor with Bob.

She was not a child custody investigator with the courts.

But it's easy to lie like, hey, I'm going through you know, I just my car was impounded.

Hey I know someone at the impound lot.

Oh, but you don't need to know someone.

You just need to extend the offer and now they like you.

Yeah, they can get in there.

You know.

The help is a lie, but it's powerful.

It makes you like them immediately.

What they're trying to do is get you like them immediately.

And who doesn't like a helper?

We all do.

Well.

If I meet anyone that I have questions about, Jonathan, I will make sure to invite both you and them to an.

Event and then I'll let you leaves drop.

Yeah, and we'd also like to do some follow ups on this couple if you find out anything else serious.

I regret.

I regret.

I was just so you know, writing this book.

It took me three years, and I would write in the morning.

I wake up at four am every day, so from five am to ten am, I would just write because that's when I'm the quickest, freshest, most creative, and then I go out with my other job.

I just didn't have the bandwidth to like look into anything else because I got all these but I can immediately if someone is telling you different origins and you overhear them, and there's such a good looking couple, and you know, my story made no sense.

They're retired, like you're way too young to retire.

But my friends accepted that I'm not a regular person anymore.

I'm suspicious all the time, and I want to be that way.

Yeah, because the people I was with are like, yeah, so they retired like this is la Like they could have a lot of money, they could have a trust fund, like you don't know, yeah, like yeah, or they could be scammers, work in the room.

You know.

Olkham's Razor.

Yeah, it's also so strange to like come in hot with like this portrayal of wealth.

Yeah, and that's the title of my next booking.

In Hot, Coming in Hot.

Well, this has just been so delightful.

Thank you so much for joining us, Jonathan.

Yeah, really, thank you.

And you know, I've been doing a lot of interviews lately, but this has been the most fun.

You you too are great.

Thank you and you you really I'm not blowing smoke.

You've asked the most relevant and insightful questions and I appreciate that.

Oh, thank so, thank you.

That's great.

You get it.

This is your world.

You deal with a lot of scams, so thank you.

I think we're helping people.

So yeah, I mean we're going to be recommending this book to a lot of people.

I already have people in my mind where I'm like, they should read this book.

Could really help them in their lives.

Yeah, because so many people who are getting canned don't know it, and it's hard for others to point it out because they get defensive, especially if it's a relationship.

Yeah, but if you give them the book, let it, if they reached the conclusion on their own, it's that much more powerful.

Oh totally, like they're raving all these flags and I love that.

Well, awesome, it's been a delight.

Thank you so much.

Really appreciate taking the time.

We'll speak with you soon.

Definitely, thank you, guys, Petia.

I think one of my favorite things that's ever been said on a Knife podcast thus far is something Jonathan said in this interview, and he said, some people golf on the weekends.

I hunt con artists.

I love that it's aspirational.

He's a hero.

I loved when he said I'm a vegetarian and then talked about the murder fantasies.

I mean that was just such a wild thing to listen to someone talk about, but like so authentic to what he was feeling, so authentic, and I think a lot of people would be afraid to talk about that.

When he said that he understood what it was like to have the urge to murder someone, I was like, whoa.

He said, I appreciate your honesty.

Yeah, I mean I do.

That was such a great conversation and just such a perfect example of how you never think it's going to be you.

Yeah, it's like you're moving through life, you have no choice, but to live your life kind of trusting people.

Yeah, that's how you build relationships.

And then he finds himself at the center of this incredible scheme and proceeds to completely unravel it.

I know, gosh, I really love his book.

I appreciate it so much.

It's not just like a platitude when we say anyone can be conned, like you really believe that.

I do, And I don't know if I always believe that.

I think that.

You know, when I started interviewing people that had been victims of cons it really like changed my understanding of who is scammed and how like completely.

I think that there's still this prevalent idea in society that people that are victims of scams are somehow less intelligent.

It just is not It's one hundred percent not true.

It could not be further from the truth.

And one of the things that I think this book does so well, and Jonathan does so well, is that he lays out these red flags that are so clear and concise, which is so opposite oftentimes how someone feels when they're being conned.

It's like they can feel very murky because so much of these scams that people pull off are these like calculated psychological manipulations over time that are really hard to kind of like pin down in your life, especially when you're reeling from being conned.

And so really it's like who can be cond humans?

Like the people that are susceptible to being conned are people that are human?

Yeah, everyone?

I mean I think that you meet your neighbor because you want to get access to an amenity you pay for what you're building.

That is as innocuous as any other way of meeting anyone.

And yet she set her sights on him, Yeah, and stole so much and like four years later invested four years.

Right.

That's the other piece of this.

It's like there's always that analogy, like the boiling frog or something.

Oh yeah, the fog and the slowly boiling pot, right, that is a telltale sign now that we've seen.

I mean, I guess it's not even a sign because it happened so slowly, but yeah, conardists know what they're doing.

Yeah, what is a light to talk with Jonathan?

And so one thing I don't think we talked about this in the episode, but Jonathan has also covered Peggy Fulford.

So we did a season on Peggy Fulford for the Opportunists back in twenty twenty two.

She was the corrupt money manager who stole money from her clients, many of whom were professional athletes, including Dennis Rodman and Ricky Williams.

And I actually interviewed Peggy over a video call while she was in prison.

Jonathan let us know she's out of prison now.

I had not kept up with that, but Jonathan said he referenced that video call in his coverage of Peggy on Queen of the Con So that was sort of fun.

We discussed that before we hit record, but it was such a pleasure to talk with someone who also has spent so much time, you know, researching and investigating con artists.

Yeah.

I mean, he's very enthusiastic about his work, and I love that.

I don't think this makes it into the cut of the interview, but Jonathan talked about something that I think is so important, which is jury duty.

He talked about how before going through this and having to testify against Mayor Smith for all the money that she'd stolen, how he had always just tried to get out of jury duty, and then when he was on this side of it where he wanted justice, how important it felt to him, and how important it was that these jurors, you know, take that responsibility really seriously and sort of see it as this duty and try to find the right outcome.

And I've thought a lot about that since he said it, because, yeah, I too have hoped to never be called for jury duty, and when I have been, I've been very relieved not to be chosen.

And look, there are some difficult things with jury duty, like time away from work and whatnot.

But yeah, I think next time, if I have the opportunity to do it, I'll probably have a different attitude.

Yeah, I love that.

I don't know how I missed that, because I'm right there on board.

I actually have wanted to be called for jury duty.

It's like my dream.

I know.

That's nice.

No I'm not I'm not going to be picked.

I was called last year and I was thrilled, and I was like, how do I downplay what I do for my job, because I feel like they're going to be like, no, you read court documents all the time, you're not no, no, no.

But I just I think it's cool.

I think it's cool that we get to be part of a jury.

As someone who loves like investigating cases.

I would love to sit in a jury box and be like, Okay, what's going on, what's the evidence.

But I'm totally romanticizing it because I've never done it, and I know that it is a huge time commitment.

Often it is a public service.

But I do think that Jonathan's right, and I appreciate that he said that because you know, if you find yourself needing a jury for some reason, like you don't want someone falling asleep in the jury box.

You want peopleho are paying attention and who are going to do their best right, who see the job as important.

Yeah.

Yeah, I've thought a lot about that.

Jonathan's book, Anatomy of a con Artist is out now and I highly recommend it.

It was such a great read.

It was really enthralling, so much amazing storytelling along with really digestible information about con artists, how they operate, and how to spot the red flags before it's too late.

Yeah, it was such a well written book.

And you know, if you think that there's someone in your life who's being scammed, it's a great holiday present for them.

We're birthday gift, you know, lean into that passive aggressive right behavior.

Might soften the blow rather than just hey, listen, I think that you're being taken for a ride.

Yeah, that's our episode.

Thanks for listening.

If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it.

Our email is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.

This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced by me Hannah Smith and me paysha Ety.

Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.

This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport, artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.