This story contains adult content and language.

Listener discretion is advised.

Welcome to The Knife off Record.

I'm Hannah Smith, I'm patia Eton.

First, just a quick thank you to everyone who has taken the time to rate and review the Knife.

It's been really helpful.

You can also email us at The Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com or follow us on Instagram at The Knife Podcast.

We have two stories for you today, both involving scams.

Mine shorter kind of a mini story, so I will jump right into it.

Yeah, let's hear it.

So I first came across this story on Reddit, as we do, and it was a post from twenty fifteen by this guy named Alec Kor.

He lives in Canada.

He's a professor and he made this post and this is the title of it.

For the past eight years, my photos have been used by romance scammers aka catfishers.

I really need Reddit's help to have this get the attention of Facebook.

So he claims that around two thousand and seven he became aware of someone using his photo when his then partner got a call from a woman that she didn't know and the woman was basically like your partner has also been dating me and she was really upset about him breaking up with her.

First of all, how would you feel if you got that random call?

Not great?

I would be very confused.

And also, like, you have to think, if someone's going that far out of their way to call you, you got to feel like they're not making it up, or at least it's worth looking into or figuring out.

I wouldn't be dismissive of it, like fully trust my husband, but I would never be of it.

I would definitely be like, what's up with this?

Yeah, we got to get to the bottom of what's going on here for sure.

So his partner confronted him and they started looking into it.

And I don't know the details of that very first case, but it became clear that it wasn't him.

First of all, it was a different profile on Facebook and under a different name, but it was using his photos.

So he reported to Facebook.

I don't think anything was done, and he thought it was a fluke, like a weird one off, weird someone used my photo.

He had a Facebook profile that was public and he had photos of himself, his partner, his life, his kids.

But then he starts getting contacted by more people all women.

They start contacting him thinking that they had been dating him, and some of them are just like heartbroken because they've been ghosted.

But a lot of them have lost money, oh and no then been ghosted.

Okay, so a lot of the time, if he ends up talking to these on the phone, they realize pretty quickly that it's not him because they've spoken on the phone to whoever it is and his voice sounds different.

But he starts getting people when they reach out to him to send him the profiles because he doesn't know what they're talking about.

So he starts getting all these profiles, and every time he gets one, they're all Facebook profiles.

He reports it to Facebook as this is not me, someone is stealing my identity, but nothing is really done about it.

He starts finding more and more of these pages, and it's not just him.

Some of these scammers have made Facebook pages for his mother, his brother.

They've found pictures of his family and then use those photos to create multiple Facebook accounts to enact their scams.

So you can imagine the mother's messaging them being like, oh, yeah, my son, it's so believable.

Yeah, it makes it so real for that person.

Yeah, so he's reporting all of these and he's that nothing's being done.

He even contacts his local police, but they can't or won't do anything because they say it's outside their jurisdiction because it's online.

And this was in twenty fifteen, so ten years ago, but he's been dealing with this since two thousand and seven.

Oh my gosh.

And it's interesting looking at that Reddit post from twenty fifteen the comments on it, people are still kind of confused and even defending Facebook and sort of like, well, why did you put your photos publicly on a Facebook profile if you didn't want this to happen?

Who is out there defending Facebook?

Like, who's like, you know in the morning, Like Facebook needs my support.

Yeah, they're just so hard working.

We got to support them.

Yeah.

I mean twenty fifteen was a different time, and I think it shows that the understanding that this is happening on a wide scale was still so lacking.

Right, and also how it could really impact someone's life.

Yeah, and also everyone was putting photos of everything from their life on Facebook in twenty fifteen public profiles.

Oh yeah, if this didn't happen to you, you're like lucky.

Yeah.

And so this continues to happen for years.

This professor, this guy Alec, he's dealing with this.

You know, he's a professor.

He actually teaches educational technology and media.

And I just point that out because he is someone who is Internet literate and you know, had resources and tools available to try to figure this out.

He reported it, He went through all the right channels, and oftentimes the profiles were not taken down because they technically met Facebook's you know, user agreement.

So he just was sort of like, I don't know what to do about this, so he just kind of had to deal with it.

That's terrible.

It's also so surprising because if whoever is using his photos to like create this persona and date people is also stealing.

Yeah, so like they didn't take it down.

That's wild.

Yeah.

Well, and it's been an ongoing issue, and since twenty fifteen, Facebook has really made some changes.

They've cracked down on scammers.

And I think you were telling me that now when you create a Facebook profile, you have to like verify your identity.

Yeah, it was something along those lines.

I don't recall exactly what it was, but it was definitely more hoops I was jumping through because back when I had my first Facebook when I went off to college way back, Like I have one now that I use for marketplace or for like telling people to listen to our podcast.

Yeah, so I don't have any like real friends or anything but on Facebook.

But yeah, I remember having to like do a lot more to make my account.

And I also now, even though I have a Facebook, I think I have one like kind of grainy photo because I'm scared of stuff like this.

Yeah, I think now it's probably good to be more aware of what you're putting out there on the internet, right.

Yeah, So, I like did another interview in twenty twenty, and he said that at that time a lot of the scammers had moved from Facebook because of their new regulations onto dating apps.

And at that point in twenty twenty, he said he'd been experiencing this for thirteen to fourteen years, and he said he was getting two to three victims reach out to him a day.

Still it's been thousands.

Oh my gosh.

That's also so scary because you know, like in the first instance of this that you mentioned, the person pieces together pretty quickly that it's not the voice of the person that she thinks she's been dating.

So clearly this isn't the guy she's been swindled.

But not everyone is that quick to sort of lift the veil on something they've been believing in, and that could be really scary once someone thinks that you stole money from them.

Oh yeah, I mean it's caused a lot of problems for him.

He said that his morning routine as he wakes up, gets his coffee open his computer, reads his email, and just knows that there are going to be emails from people in there.

Then he has to be the one to explain to them what the situation is.

So eventually he actually created a website and it has like a page that he sends to people.

Now it's like FAQ almost because the emotional burden and the time to try to explain this to every single person that's reaching out is just not possible for him.

So I went to this website and it starts with hi, there, my name is Alex Corros.

If I have shared this page with you, there's a good chance you've been the target of a romance scam and may have been led to believe that you are in a relationship with someone who looks like me.

Oh and me is hyperlinked and when you click on it, it just takes you to a Google image and there's like tons of pictures of him.

So he's like, if you've been in a relationship with someone who looks like this me, then you're.

Not imagine getting a response from him and it being that link and going down that rabbit hole of like realizing you've been conned and also sometimes probably heartbroken.

Yeah, like that is total devastation.

But how nice of him, yeah to put that together, Yeah, because he could just not respond to people.

Yeah, And so on this website, it says he's done his best to try to get these pages down, he's tried to report this happening.

He kind of explains everything that he's done, and the thing that he's doing is trying to raise awareness about it to try to get this to stop.

And then there are times that he's posted exchanges that he's had with people who've contacted him on the page, but crossing out their identity maybe, I think, in an effort to convince people or like an additional evidence that this is real.

This is happening, and people are reaching out to me, and sometimes you know, they're really sad, and people are a broken hearted.

Sometimes they're really angry, and like you said, sometimes they believe him and sometimes they don't.

There have been instances where he's like, hey, this is the situation and people are like, I don't care.

I think it's still you and they're harassing him.

It's a lot to deal with.

That's heavy.

Yeah, So this is just one example of an email that Alex has gotten.

Good morning, Alec.

I called you yesterday and hung up without saying anything.

I'm sorry about that.

I wanted to hear your voice to see if you had an accent.

You did not, if you wonder where I called.

I have just spent the last six months falling in love with you, well, at least your picture.

I am still dealing with this now unknown person whom I thought was you, and I'm not sure what to do.

I was ready to spend the rest of my life with him as soon as he returned from work in the Buffort Sea.

We speak almost daily, including last night.

I find it hard to believe he would have such sinister intentions.

He has such a good heart.

I'm shocked at something like this could even have happened to me.

I am a smart, college educated female and work in employment law for a major international retailer.

I just happened to do a Google image search with a picture last night and saw the pictures this man sent me were also tagged to you.

And I must also say I think you are very handsome, not the flattery you know.

I connected to you on Twitter last night as well.

From what I saw, You've been dealing with silly females like me for years?

What happened?

How many people have used your pictures?

Why you?

Where are they from?

Is it a group of people or is it many non connected individuals.

Am I dealing with one person?

Or is he one of many working together?

He knows my address, my name, where I work?

Is that an issue?

Should I be scared?

I truly am in love with him.

He's kind, sensitive, funny, values the same things.

He has a good heart.

He makes me smile and I do not do that a lot.

I still find it hard to believe he is part of this thing.

And she kind of goes on to say, like, you know, any advice that you have would help?

I hope I don't.

I'm crazy.

I'm sure you hear this a lot.

Blahlah blah.

I mean, it's just like ah, the emotional situation that this person has found themselves in is horrible.

That's horrible.

Yeah, It's like he could just not respond because he really he played no role in this at all, but like he's responding to be kind and try to correct the issue because he hasn't been able to get all these accounts dealt with.

And then you also don't have answers for that person.

And how could you not be impacted by an email like that, especially when they come in so often.

It's just that's sad.

That's sad.

I do.

She's like, why your photo?

It's like, well, you just said you think he's reallysome I know.

It is curious.

Why is what I mean?

He is good, lucky, and I'm just like, yeah, I see this guy, We'll post a picture.

Yeah yeah.

I don't know if he is like classically good looking in a way where the scammer thought this is great.

I don't know.

But it's not just romance scams.

He also was contacted by a man in Russia who was sending him legal documents.

He claimed that Alec or someone using Alex Photo, took money from him for an investment and then disappeared.

So now this guy's like giving back my money, threatening him that he's going to end up in a jail in Russia, And it's just like, so the legal implications are difficult with something like this.

Oftentimes nothing is done even after the discovery that someone has used a photo to scam someone else.

It's also like how do you find out who the real person is?

And then there's this whole issue of jurisdiction.

I think that's really interesting with cases like this, especially when the scammer might not live in the US or in Canada, like they might live abroad in a different country.

So then who do you contact?

Whose job is it to track this person down?

And back in the day, I mean sounds like this is continued on.

But back in the day when this started for him, you weren't facetiming with people, right, Like that thing video call was that they but it wasn't like it is now, not like it is now.

I feel like nowadays, if you have really sort of any level of like online dating savvy, continuing on a long distance relationship with someone without facetiming would be a big red flag.

Yeah, that's a good point.

I wonder if things have changed for him since you know, everyone is zooming and facetiming.

I wasn't able to find an update, but be interesting to find out.

Yeah.

I wonder if he's also getting hit with those like deep fakes that are getting better and better, because that is another concern I would imagine.

Yeah, you know, I found an article from July of twenty twenty five that Facebook removed ten million Facebook profiles that impersonated other users.

Ten million profiles.

Wow, just in twenty twenty five.

And part of this is them trying to combat the use of AI.

Now okay, but it's an ongoing effort, and you know, to wrap it up, Alec basically has said that, you know, this has taken a toll on him on his personal life, even though he has nothing to do with it.

He sometimes still feels guilty that even his photo was used to harm all these people, and it's emotionally difficult, and he wishes that he could do something to stop it.

But he's just trying to raise awareness that this is happening.

Wow.

Well, I feel like his website is a noble attempt and probably the most you can ask of someone in that situation.

Yeah, and we'll put a link to that in the show notes.

Yeah, that's a wild story and actually reminds me of a documentary I just watched which is on Hulu and it's called Hey Beautiful, Anatomy of a Romance Scam, and it's a very similar situation.

A man's likeness is used by multiple people scamming women who think that they're dating him, and it really unravels his world.

Wow, that sounds really interesting.

I'll give that a watch.

Yeah, well that is my story for today.

Today, I'm going to to tell you a story about a young woman named Kristin Lewis So I actually met way back before we first worked together, and I found Kristin's story on Reddit.

I reached out to her through that Reddit post and asked her if she would tell her story to me on tape, and cool, I'm excited to tell you about it.

It's you know, Kristin had her identity stolen.

Kristin is from Arizona.

She grew up in a single parent household.

She said they didn't have a lot of money, but it was a really good childhood.

Her mother, you know, supported them and they're close knit family, but money was always tight.

It was always something they were thinking about.

So she started working right away.

And where is she located?

Phoenix, Arizona.

Okay, she's living in Phoenix.

She gets a job as soon as she turned sixteen, and she has that job until twenty eleven.

And she's driving to work and she's on the freeway.

Traffic is slowing down.

There's some construction up ahead, and so everyone's coming to like not quite a stop, but you're now going very slowly.

Yeah, and the person behind her doesn't see that, and I don't know if they're not paying attention or what happened, But they hit Kristen going about sixty five miles an hour and she's stopped or going really slowly.

She's going really slowly, she said.

She's probably going less than five miles an hour by the time they hit her.

And so this is like my nightmare.

This sometimes will happen because in LA you'll be going and then suddenly it's like stop traffic.

And I always worry about that, Like, I hope people are paying attention because you could turn a corner and then there's stop traffic.

I know, and or if I'm driving through the hills, I'm like, if someone's pulled over.

Yeah, it's really scary and it happened, and so she gets hit and her car she described like the tires were basically flipped inside out, totally smashed up.

She obviously lives, but she's messed up, you know.

Her back is in a lot of pain, but she's not quite sure what happened, and she goes to the doctor.

Her car is totaled.

Of course, she can no longer work.

By this time, she's in her early twenties, so she's been working at Kohl's this entire time, having a very steady job.

Yeah, and now she's out of work.

She's in immense pain, and they don't have a lot of resources.

So she goes to the doctor.

Eventually is able to get surgery, and that surgery happens in twenty twelve.

And so the surgery to repair the disc that was her needed disc, I believe, is successful and she feels a lot better.

But she's put on pain medication, as anyone would be in that situation, and she eventually develops a reliance on this medication and she's in very real chronic pain.

Even despite the success of the surgery, the surgery did not alleviate her of all chronic pain, but it did help a lot.

Right, So she's still dealing with all of this pain in her back.

Yeah, so she's dealing with chronic pain.

She's becoming reliant on this medication.

The doctor's not monitoring it very closely.

And this is the tale as old as time, like, totally not unique to Kristin.

These medications are highly addictive, and you know, if someone's living with chronic pain, who's to say they shouldn't have access to them.

But it's a very careful line.

And so Kristin is now also out of work.

Gosh, you know, it's like, what kind of job can you do if you're in incredible chronic back pain.

Yeah, it's so sad to hear about that, Like having an incident like that happen and then suddenly so much in her life has changed because of this physical pain that she's dealing with that's now sounds like causing her not be able to work and then sort of creating this addiction situation.

It's horrible.

Yeah, I mean, even in Kristin's modest home life, she still had the benefit of one parent who could you know, she could live with them?

And this is the ripple effect of bad luck.

If you don't have money, yeah, and so, you know, her life gets a little tricky and she's looking for ways to make money because she cannot work.

And so she decides, Okay, I'm going to go around my house and if I'm not using it, I'm going to see if i can sell it, you know online.

Maybe.

Yeah.

She finds some stuff and she lists it, and immediately someone reaches out about one of the items.

It's just a household items.

She didn't even recall what it was.

Okay, and she knows this person, so she's like, well, great, I'll just meet you at this gas station by my house.

Awesome.

So she heads over there and he just hops in the car with her because they're kind of acquainted, and she feels totally comfortable with that, and he purchases this item and they chat for a minute.

He gets out of the car, she goes home.

Okay, when she gets home, she gets that feeling that most women have had at least once in their life, when your stomach drops and you realize.

I don't know where my purse is.

Oh gosh, the worst.

Yeah, that's such a bad feeling.

The worst feeling.

And she had been actively looking for work for you know, many months, and so she's got all of these identification documents in her purse because she's filling out applications, and I mean it makes you think, like these job applications ask for so much information before they even ever meet with you, let alone hire you.

Yeah, like your social Security number.

I know.

I'm like, is it so necessary?

So she realizes her purse is missing.

She calls the gas station.

She's like, but I don't think I went in, but what happened here?

And I'm assuming she's like searching her car.

It's not in the car.

Yeah, it's not in the car.

She luckily had her phone in her pocket.

Okay, so she had her cell phone, but her purse is gone, and she was, you know, to add insult to injury.

This happens in like January, So now we're in twenty fifteen, so it's a few years past her accident.

We're in early early twenty fifteen.

She's been out of work, but she got a few gift cards for Christmas and they were in her purse.

So it's just like horrible, terrible, Yeah, and so what did she think happened to the purse?

Well, she then starts assuming this person took it.

The person who she met up with to sell like whatever she was selling that she knew, she thinks then took her purse.

Yes, so Kristin thinks that this guy took her purse because she remembers her purse being on the passenger's side floor of her car.

He was sitting in her passenger seat and when he got out, it was gone.

But she also knows that this guy is kind of a sketchy character, and so in my speaking with Kristin, she was super transparent about her struggle with addiction that really started when she was prescribed painkillers by a doctor after this terrible car accident.

But she had been trying really hard to overcome this still, you know, it's not easy, and it did at times put her in questionable situations with people who, you know, maybe aren't always living life on the straight and narrow.

And that is how this person came into her world.

So confident that this is the person who took her purse, and she knows she's not going to call him and say do you have it?

Can you give it back?

She knows it's gone, and so what do you do?

You go on with your life.

She applies to get a new license and continues applying for jobs and she ends up meeting someone.

So later that year she meets a guy and they start dating.

And now in twenty sixteen, they're out shopping in Phoenix and they go to this place called Zia Records.

Okay, it's this sort of by sell trade record shop.

Kristen loves it.

She's been going, she said, her whole life.

And yeah, and so she would sell them things and collect points and so she had a bunch of points racked up and she was excited to use them on something once she found something she wanted.

So she's there with this new ish boyfriend and she up to the counter and she gives him her license or this is her new license, right.

She's like, I have points here that I want to use to purchase this.

And he's like, you're not even allowed in here.

You were banned for shoplifting, Like you have to go, and she's like, I've never shoplifted from here.

I've been coming here my whole life.

I don't shoplift.

Yeah, and this new guy that she's dating is right there, and so it's horrible or embarrassing, so embarrassing, and so they go out of the store she's you know, embarrassed and sort of like, I don't know, it's unsettling, like why did he just say that about me?

Her new boyfriend believes her immediately, which is a relief, and he's like, well, why did this happen?

And she's like, you know, my purse was stolen and I just have a feeling it's related to that because I had my ID in there.

And he's like okay.

So they're on the same page about it, and so about another year goes by, So now we're in twenty sixteen.

Did she like try to report this or I don't know what she would have done.

She reported it at one point, but I don't even know that anything was officially like filed.

She wasn't really sure what to do.

And so about another year goes by and Kristin's at home with her mom, and her mom comes into the room and is like, I just got a really strange call from your uncle who says that there's a warrant out for your arrest.

So Kristin is stunned by this and very confused.

So she and her mom dig into the Maricopa County Court Wreckers to try and find more information about this warrant and the charges for this warrant are related to intent to sell drug paraphernalia.

Kristin, despite her struggle with an addiction to painkillers, knows that she has never sold drugs and she has never sold drug paraphernalia.

She never tried to.

She knows this is not her, but her name is on this warrant.

So she's pretty quickly starting to connect that this has to be related to the person who took her purse.

She's also calling back to this experience at the record shop where she's accused of shoplifting, but she's never shoplifted.

She's actually had points there she could have used that she was really excited about and that, you know.

She's also pretty convinced that this has something to do with her purse having been stolen, and she's piecing all of that together and she's like, this is not me.

And so she is like, well, what do I do about this?

They can't walk into a police station and say there's a warrant from my arrest and then try to explain the situation.

So what other information did she get?

It was there a picture?

There was no picture, It was just text.

And so she's like, well, I know this isn't me.

I have a feeling this is again related to the ZEA records shoplifting thing.

Yeah, like probably the same person who who?

Yeah, because the person who was in her car at the gas station.

Was a man, so probably he's not using her ID.

Yeah.

And so she's like, well, I didn't know what to do.

We don't have the money to hire an attorney, and I can't walk into a police station and be arrested.

I need to find work.

Because if she walked into a police station to try to figure this out and say this isn't me, my purse was stolen, like, probably she would just be arrested.

Yeah, without an attorney to be like I'm going to assert this person's rights and fight this really strongly, they would just arrest her because you know, I'm sure a lot of people say it wasn't me.

Yeah.

Yeah, and she knew that, and so she just waited and ash, what a horrible position to be in.

Yeah, just so much anxiety.

You know, she said, this happens, and then another year goes by, so she's you know, for a year, she just I think it was she was almost a year.

I think it was like ten months, but she said, I was just looking over my shoulder.

I knew it was a waiting game, but I needed to try to work.

I needed to make money.

I didn't have money for a lawyer.

Like what was I supposed to do?

And so in twenty seventeen, Kristen is at the grocery store and she walks out to her car with a small bag of groceries and she sees that there's a cop in the parking lot and she said that she just knew this was the moment she would be arrested.

And she's been replaying this scenario in her head for upwards of a year, like what am I going to say when this happens.

I'm going to go to jail.

I've never been to jail.

That's so scary.

And the cop comes up to he says, are you Kristin Lewis And she says, yes, I know you have a warrant for my arrest.

It's not me.

I can tell you what happened.

And the cop listens and believes her, and so he's like, well, I do I do have to now take you to jail because this is you and I do have this warrant, But I think you're telling the truth.

And so what I can do for you is I can take you home in my life car, in his cop car so that you can give your mom your car keys so that it won't be impounded, and you can put your groceries away.

So how did this cup find her?

So?

Yeah, she said that he was running plates.

He said, I was running plates in the parking lot, which you're not supposed to do.

You're just sitting there running people's plates.

Wow.

Yeah, Because it's not like she was some high level threat where they were out to find her.

It was kind of like she's living her life for a year hoping that she doesn't get pulled over for something random, or her license isn't run to where someone would realize that she has a warrant.

Yeah.

Right, and then she's just going to the grocery store in seventh and they run her plates.

Okay wow Yeah, And she was terrified, and so he takes her to jail and it's really just a holding cell.

It's like a smaller office, and puts her in a holding cell, as if her luck cannot get any worse.

She's sitting in this holding cell and she looks through like the great like the drain and the floor, and she sees a bag of pills.

Oh god, and she's like, Okay, someone discarded this.

Now what do I do?

Do I tell them, hey, there's a bag of pills in here.

It's not mine.

No, I wouldn't say anything.

Well she did, really yeah.

She was like, I mean and look, I guess you got to just make a judgment call in that moment.

But it's terrible.

And so she because she was worried they would think it was hers or something.

She was worried if they came in and found it, they would say did you do this?

And so I think at that point they were just like whatever, and they just kind of heard her and took her word for it, because at that point she's already arrested, so it's not over.

Then she's taken to what she called like the real jail.

This is downtown Phoenix.

She's put on a bus with these other people.

They're all handcuffed.

She's taken to the downtown jail, put in another cell with a bunch of people.

And so I think about eighteen hours past, and mind you that during that time, she doesn't have her phone or any thing she's just sitting there.

But like, to find yourself in that situation like she did, where you literally didn't do anything wrong and then you're now, you know, having to go through the system and for the state to think that you have a felony drug charge when you don't.

Right, and they're not going to listen to you.

So now you have a public defender.

So she goes and gets in front of the judge.

He lifts off these charges.

There are multiple felony charges, all related to possession of drugs.

And she's like, I'm not even going to bother telling this judge right now.

This isn't me.

I don't want to anger him.

I'm just gonna like stand there and say okay, thank you, okay, thank you, you know whatever.

And so he just lets her go.

So she's let out of jail.

There's no bail or anything.

He's like, this is your court date.

You're going to get a public defender and then you're going to have a court date for these charges.

So she just walks out of jail and downtown Phoenix.

So Kristen calls her mom, gets picked up, and now this whole other process starts of she's got to fight these charges, yeah, because they don't belong to her, and she's got to do it with the public defender.

And even though she has struggled with like trying to get off these painkillers, like she's like living a life, she's trying to work.

She has sounds like a boyfriend, like she's holding down this relationship she has, is on good terms with her mom, and she knows she's never been arrested for any of this, but now she has to try to prove that I guess.

Yeah, And so it feels like her luck is starting to turn.

And she gets this female public defender who sits down with her, listens to her story, believes her, and is like, okay, great, we're going to fight this.

Yeah.

She's like, thank god, like someone cares.

I've now, you know, been picked up by a cop who was running plates, taken to jail, sat there without my phone, anyone to contact my family for eighteen hours in this small cell.

And now here's this person who's gonna help me and if really lucky.

And then within a couple of weeks, this woman says, you know, they are going to reassign me to a different case and get you someone new because there's a conflict of.

Interest here, Oh gosh.

And so Kristen's like, Okay, she's bummed, but she's hopeful because this public defender listened to her, heard her story, wanted to help get rid of these charges.

So her next public defender, who she refers to as Tyler.

That was his first name, you know, not his full name.

He is the complete opposite.

She meets him for the first time when they go in front of a judge and he does not so much as introduce himself.

It's just like a hearing where it's like, here are the charges, you know, how do you plead not guilty?

And then Tyler says to her, you need to just plead guilty and they'll give you a year.

And she's like, take a year in jail for this, like these are not my charges.

And so she's like chasing him down the courtroom hallway, is trying to get him to listen to her story.

He just has no interest in listening to her, not at all.

Will barely respond to an email.

It's a nightmare and so so horrible, so horrible.

So she's now like, Okay, this guy is awful.

I'm gonna have to do my own investigation to prove my innocence.

So she gets the police report and finds out that this person who identifies themselves as Kristen, they were arrested in a casino parking lot.

They were in their car, they were not doing well.

A security guard comes up to them, sees the arrest happening, and this person says they're having a medical emergency.

It's a woman, a young woman.

And so when this person is arrested and tells the cop, I'm having a medical emergency, she's then taken to a hospital.

So Kristen sees this in the police report and she's like, well, these medical records are all going to be under my name.

This person has identified themselves as me, and.

Wow, good thinking.

Yeah, so she goes to the hospital.

You can't just I mean, people know this, but you can't just like call and get someone else's medical records because of hippa, right, you cannot be good Yeah, but.

I mean if I were Kristin, I would have done the same thing.

But it's this other person.

So she's saying, this other person was arrested and sent to a hospital, but had maybe given her idea or something, so that all of that would have been listed under Kristen's name, right.

So along with the police report, Kristen is then given bodycam footage of this woman at the hospital being questioned by police, and so she's looking at this woman and she's like, I recognize her.

Her name is Courtney.

Courtney is a friend of the man who got into Kristen's.

Car that day.

Wow.

Yeah, And Courtney has a record for drug charges.

This is something that she has done before.

And so it's a thirty seven minute bodycam video on the bodycam facing Courtney, who we now know to be Courtney, and Kristen's like, this is irref you evidence.

I am not her, she is not me.

She just gave them my identification.

I can connect the dots of like how she even came to be in possession of it.

This feels a huge discovery.

Huge.

Also, she's looking through all these medical records.

You know, she's had this massive spine surgery, right she has, So there's differences in all of their medical records.

This person, Courtney list's allergies that Kristin doesn't have, Like she doesn't have the same spyin X ray that Kristin would have.

It's just everything is different, and so Kristin takes all of these medical records and other evidence of witnesses to her attorney.

He says, I'm not going to look at it, and neither is the judge.

You just need to plead.

And by the way, he says, more charges are imminent.

So this person has continued using her ID, getting more charges and he doesn't care.

He doesn't even open the folder, he doesn't take one second to even try to see if she's telling the truth.

And so she's like, I'm not going to jail for a year.

These are not my charges.

Yeah, sort of lucky that she, I mean, it makes sense, but that she sees the camera footage and she knows this person or recognizes that she's met this person before versus a random stranger.

But that confirms that that original person who she met in her car took her purse and probably somehow gave Courtney her ID.

I guess, yeah.

And so seven months and nine court dates go by.

So this is like all consuming for her.

You know, she's looking at a year in jail with a public defender who could care less.

Yeah, and so she's completely lost.

The final time she sees this man in the hallway.

She is so frustrated.

She's there with her mom.

They don't have the money to hire an attorney.

But she just gets so fired up.

She's like, you're fired.

I'm going to find an attorney.

And she said he laughed in her face and he was good luck.

And that is just like so callous.

He truly did not care.

She's like, in that moment, it went from this adrenaline rush of like I've had enough, I'm gonna do something about it, to realizing, like, my family doesn't have the money to hire an attorney, and now this man who didn't like me before likes me even less.

Like it's just dismal.

And so her brother sets up a gofund me and in his GoFundMe he details the entire situation.

He says, my sister's life has been turned upside down by an impostor who has stolen her identity, using her ID and personal information.

They stole her purse.

This has caused her problems, mixed up medical records, ambulance bills, finding her name blacklisted at certain shops that this person has stolen from.

That's another thing.

All of these medical bills from the hospital were getting directed to Kristen, Oh, the ambulance bills, and so she's already not making money, didn't have a lot to begin with.

Oh my gosh, it's like a snowball effect worse for her.

M Oh, that's horrible.

It's horrible.

And so her friends they're able to raise a little bit of money, but it's not enough.

She does, however, have a friend who's a professional skateboarder, and he sees that this is happening to her and he gives her the remainder of the money that she needs to hire a real attorney, and y'all shout him out.

His name is Aaron Hamoki.

His nickname is Jaws.

Jaws, Jaws, Yeah, I have it.

They grew up in the same circle.

And so he comes through and helps Kristin and she gets this real attorney.

Thanks Jazz, Thanks Jaws.

So Kristin is able to hire an attorney named Carrie Lackey, who actually corresponded with to verify, you know, we fact check everything totally Kristin's story, and he said it's absolutely true.

He said that she came to him, she was able to pay his fee, and he took one look at her case and all of the evidence she herself had collected, and he was able to get it dismissed in two weeks.

Kristin never even had to go back into court with him.

Wow.

And one of the most disturbing details of all of this is that the security guard that was present at the casino that witnessed this arrest of this person who was impersonating Kristin, who we later found out is Courtney, who we later find out is Courtney.

He did appear at one of Kristen's court hearings and he pointed to her and said, yes, that's her, that's the woman from the parking lot.

And this really like solidified to any skeptics of the fact that she was telling the truth, like, yeah, it's her.

Don't believe her story.

She's guilty, and she was there, that's her.

So this was really working against her.

And then that security guard, I don't know why, if he just like had a guilty conscience or if he realized he was wrong, but he later called the court, called the prosecutor's office or her defense attorney.

He didn't contact with someone.

It's on her record and said, I got it wrong, that was not her.

I got it wrong.

Wow.

And so he, I don't know what the right word is, recanted that statement that he had seen Kristin and she was never told that her defense attorney had that information, the public defender, and he never told her that terrible, terrible, He straight up didn't care.

And so Kristen's charges were dismissed.

But Courtney Johnson, who took her ID and used it, has never been charged with any crimes related to stealing Kristen's identity and just you know, continued to use her ID at certain points.

Yeah, but Kristin now she hasn't had any further charges on her record, but they were never able to like go and take the ID from Courtney.

It's still out in the world.

And so this is just something that she now has to really just watch all the time.

Is just now ending for her.

Wow, what about like the hospital bills?

Was she able to get those sort of you know, I don't know how that ended.

I know she didn't pay them because she didn't have any money to pay them, but I think she did tell the hospital this is what's going on, So maybe someone there listen to her.

But I do also want to say, Kristen is today doing great good?

Yeah, she's still with the boyfriend right see your records.

I believed her right away, which I love, and she used in chronic pain, but she's no longer suffering from addiction and oh good, she's just a very warm, resilient person.

I love that.

Yeah, it's so good to hear.

I mean, wow, she went through a lot.

She went through so much.

I mean even before the identity theft, she went through a lot.

Identity theft is so tricky, Like, I'm so glad that she got a good attorney who was able to get these charges dismissed.

But it still begs the question what are you supposed to do?

How do you avoid this?

And the fact that Courtney was still using her idea after all this happened.

It's like, what are you supposed to do if you find yourself in this situation?

Obviously, get a good attorney if you can afford that, or if you have someone like Jaws in your life.

But so grateful that Kristen was able to do that, But like, what are the steps that you're supposed to take?

Do you know?

Yeah?

Well, so I've since looked into it, and basically, if your person stolen, if your identification is stolen.

You can report your license as lost, or you can report it as stolen.

You should report it as stolen, yeah, because that flags it.

So that would give you something to point back to if say, someone did use it nefariously gotcha.

So I ideally was that like, let's say someone steals your person and your licenses in it, and then they try to use that if they're pulled over or they're getting arrested, if you've reported it as stolen, will that like pop up in a system?

I think it will because I think it changes the number on your license.

It's like interesting, it'll give you a new number.

I think that's how it works.

But it will at least.

Be cataloged somewhere where your attorney, your public defender hopefully if they care, Yeah, can look and say, oh, yeah, you did have your license doolen a year ago and this did happen.

Right, So if it's on record that this is the date it was stolen, that you flagged it as stolen, and then two months later someone uses it when they're arrested, you can prove that more easily in court.

Yeah.

Absolutely, And you know you can also put like if your credit cards are in there, you can freeze your credit so that the banks, if someone's trying to apply for a loan in your name, you can go to some place like TransUnion and freeze your credit or experience frase your credit, no free ads, and that way, if someone tries to take out a loan in your name, the bank has to go through extra measures.

Just make sure it's you.

Yeah, and I've since done that.

And you know, I actually a couple months ago had my purse in the bottom of my stroller and it fell out at a park and I got lucky.

Someone turned it in actually to the police station.

It's so nice, so nice.

This happened on a Friday, and I thought there's no way someone turned it in.

Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but I reported my license stolen right away, froze all my cards.

Actually what happened is I was able to go get my purse.

I can't remember if it was like the following Monday.

I think it was a Monday, because we had work and I had to go to the police station and get my purse.

And then the cash that was in my purse hadn't been like processed yet, and so they were like, but you can't get your cash today.

And I was just thinking, like, okay, what and I think it was like fifty bucks or something.

But you know, I'm self employed, like I have flexibility.

It's not like it's easy to just take all this time to go somewhere and do something the middle of a work day.

But I do have the option.

And you know, what if you didn't.

What if you're Kristen and you're busy and you're looking for work and you need that cash, Like it's I don't know, I wish they had a different process for that.

Was felt really like someone turned my person in.

But I thought about how you know, my keys were in there and I had to wait the whole weekend.

Like I happened to be married and my spouse can let me into the house, but like what if.

Yeah, so not a perfect process for that either, But I was lucky someone turned it in.

Yeah.

Listening to you tell that story, it made me think about that documentary.

I just looked up the name of it, Fanatical The cat Fishing of Tegan and Sarah.

Oh yes, yeah.

It came out like, I don't know a few months ago or something.

I thought it was so good.

It was it was so good, and I guess it's it's different because it's about cat fishing, but it also involves stolen identity.

Tegan and Sarah are pop duo.

They're twins, and they got really huge in like the late nineties early two thousands and had this like huge online following, and then Teagan her identity was stolen, and the documentary go into all the specifics of it.

There's like a whole cat fishing element that's like very creepy, but they talk about the logistical nightmare of having your identity stolen, and then it was like causing all these issues with everyday things that you have to do, coupled with them trying to do things like play shows and go on a tour, rent a car or something like that, and how it really can like immobilize you and not only cause like fear, like there was a whole fear element for them here, but just like incredible inconvenience and difficulty, and they weren't even like at the level like what Kristen was, where she's suddenly like thrust in the criminal justice system when she didn't commit a crime and the horror of that.

But it just really reminded me of it.

It was a good doc So I can recommend that one because you know, you hear about these stories of identity theft and then someone is just like, well, what am I supposed to do?

Yeah?

That story also, you know, because this person was interacting with their fans.

Yeah, it's just such a sacred release.

Cat Fisher identity thief was interacting with Tegan and Sarah's fans pretending to be Teagan.

Right, and so you know, someone's whole perception of you is being formed by someone who's just an impostor.

Yeah.

And then you know, there's this crazy moment in the documentary where Teagan comes into contact with a person who believes that they've been in all of this correspondence online and she never was, and so it's just this totally jarring experience for both of them.

Yeah.

Yeah, I had kind of forgotten about the details of that.

So there's all these other victims in this story who are also victims of this person who's pretending to be Teagan right but believe that they have this deep connection with her, when in reality, it's this like Cat Fisher person.

Yea, yeah, I mean it's heartbreaking, Yeah, totally, yeah, I mean, go ahead and just recommend everything.

Directed by Aaron Lee Carr.

That's right, Okay, I have I do have a wreck.

I'm not all the way through it, but I feel very good recommending it.

It's called catch Me if you can.

It's from the Binge.

I'll read you the long light.

I don't want to give too much away.

Okay, catch me if you can.

Investigates the never before told story of a scam that happened from Los Angeles to Italy, telling people he was a billionaire son, a crypto mogul, and a tech genius can allegedly lord victims by promising to make them rich, leaving a trail of beautiful woman and broken promises in his wake.

Mm.

Yeah sounds good.

So are you saying catch me if you ken hen k n Yes, got very clever.

Yeah, interesting, great title, love that title.

This is a series podcast series, okay, podcast series from the Binge cases cool.

Yeah, it's awesome.

Can't wait to listen to that one.

Yeah, I'm episode three right now.

Great?

I love it.

Whenever you can't even get all the way through through listening to something before you recommend it because it's that good.

Well, I'm so glad that you talked to Kristen and were able to tell me and our listeners that story, because it's really powerful and I'm so thrilled to hear that she's doing well.

Yeah, she's awesome.

I mean, I just love that I reached out her on read it and she was like, yeah, sure, I'll get on a zoom with you.

Person who has zero podcasting experience, and we have just stayed in touch.

I think she's awesome.

Yeah, very cool.

Yeah, thanks for listening.

We'll be back next week.

I if you have a story for us, we would love to hear it.

Our email is The Knife at Exactlyrightmedia dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.

This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced by me Hannah Smith.

And me payshia E.

Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.

This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Artwork fi Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer