Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows with all new commentary, updates and insights, and you are welcome.

Today we're recapping episode sixty six, which we named the Devil's Number, which isn't true.

It isn't true at all.

Okay, we're five hundred and forty four away forty three.

This episode came out on April twenty seventh, twenty seventeen.

Okay, let's listen to the intro of episode sixty six.

You said, what did you say, cross your.

Cross your t's, and dot your everything.

That's us tightening up, the tightening the ship.

Yeah, you know, trying to be correct.

Trying to fucking do it right.

Yeah, just be a profectals, that's the goal, that's the dream.

So cross your t's and dire everything.

It's not gonna happen on this episode.

Nope.

Welcome to My Favorite Murder.

That's Georgia Hartstark.

That's Karen kill Gareth.

This is the show where we talk about our favorite true crime stories and other things.

I love that our ads, like, I'm having so much more fun with our ads now that we're like saying what they're saying, you know, like our tone of voice in them being very normal.

Yeah, we're practicing being normal.

We're practicing having professionals speaking voices.

I think it's working.

I like it.

It's good practice.

Yeah.

Hi, because you've just been asked to be the voice of McDonald's.

Yeah, that's me chicken McNuggets.

Can I start off with business?

Yeh, way up front, this is important.

The story that I told last week about Ronnie Chasen's murder her shooting death was taken entirely from an article that a man named Gary Baum wrote for The Hollywood Reporter, and I did not credit him until the fifty minute mark, and somebody called me out about it on Twitter, and of course at first I was very offended and completely I texted Stephen.

I was like, this isn't possible.

Can I remember you mentioning it too?

Yeah, Like it was clear to me what you were saying.

But I think the thing, the important thing and the reason I'm pointing it out like this is because the end, when I went to listen back, it wasn't even full credit.

The way I said it was almost like I was citing him for the following quote as opposed to everything I'd been saying.

So just to make that point, my apologies to Gary Baum of the Hollywood Reporter.

I did not mean to take credit for your hard work.

I feel like the only reason that story is out there is because of the articles he's written, based on the research he's done on these files that Beverly Hills Police is released, and it's all him.

I was just reading his quotes and his timeline chronology, all of it.

So I should have said that the very beginning where it belongs, and I apologize for not doing that.

So sometimes at the very end, you know, we'll be like, and I got a lot of help from this article by this person, So maybe we should say that in the beginning, even if it's not the whole thing, right.

I mean, I you know, we could go through and pull It's the thing is this we're never about Like I went down and read these files at the you know, police station or whatever like, But that doesn't mean people that are listening know that, or give us the benefit of the doubt or understand.

So I think that's especially for me as a professional writer, being accused of plagiarism is a horrible feeling.

And something that I never want to keep the door open on.

So I will always cite from now on and just be very careful.

But I think it's also it's good to get called on something, because that's the line that get Once it gets sloppy, it just gets sloppier for me.

Anyway.

It's like I'm always like, oh, I have to do my book report at the last minute, and then it's you to me that's like, oh, it's this built an excuse to like be sloppy, and there's no excuse for that.

You can't do that.

The thing of like, well this was already said perfectly, so I'm gonna do that, right, but you could put your spin on it.

Well, in the past, we've always just gone, I'm totally reading you.

This article from like the I five Killer was almost all ESPN dot com article or like most of the timeline and most of that bulk of information.

So like that's how we do it.

We're retelling you articles that we've read.

But you just have to say it.

Yeah, that's not what we're always doing.

So I don't want that's not this podcast.

I'm sorry, That's what I'm always doing.

No, no, no, no, no, that's not what this podcast is.

So that was a dot your everything corner or across your tea corner.

That's exactly right.

But are those two different things?

No?

Oh?

Yes, no, yes or no?

You know what I mean?

I do?

I do?

Oh?

Can I This is a good segue into my podcasting favorites.

Now, okay, can I do this?

So I'm now listening to in my fucking quest to always be listening to a like a season long narrative true crime podcast that I'm obsessed with and then finish in a week and I'm fucking devastated.

I love that.

That's the at the end.

It's like you're throwing yourself off a cliff on purpose for a good story.

Yeah.

I need them.

You've craved those things.

And then you grieve them when it's over it.

Yeah, and I'm like, what are we doing with my fucking life now?

And then I find a new one, thank fucking God.

So please listen.

Keep making them investigative journalists, and Georgia will keep not throwing herself off a cliff for them.

It's called The Accused, and it's about this this chick name Elizabeth Andy's in Ohio and nineteen seventy eight who got murdered and like some dude, they arrested him and he went to trial twice and was acquitted, and like, who fucking did it?

And this chick who's like researching it is awesome and ask the hard question to the cops and stuff, but with like a really cute, sweet voice, so it's not I like it.

Oh and then oh, the other thing I was going to say is speaking of just reading articles.

This is my new sleeping podcast is called Mysteries Abound, and it's just this dude with a most soothing British accent you've ever heard, and he's just reading articles of mysterious things that have happened.

So it's like Mars and murder.

And then like you know, uh, people who people who have Seriously, how do I fucking turn this alarm off my watch?

I don't know, it's always done that.

Just once a day you have to think about it.

Yeah, in the middle of a podcast.

Yeah.

Anyways, I've been falling asleep to it and that sounds awesome.

It's so soothing.

And they're real mysteries.

Like he's not just making stuff up, No, he's reading.

Them from like this is from uh, this article written by so and so, and he'll just read it.

Yeah, and so, you know, the whole podcast is I'm reading articles.

But in the beginning he's like, I found this one, I found that one, and I'll save some of them because I'm like, well, I want to listen to this when I'm awake because it's really interesting.

Does it affect your dreams?

Do you ever have that?

Yeah?

But then I'm ready to fall asleep in the car when I'm like listening to the episode of like that's about you know this person who disappeared?

If I have unexplained disappearances.

And then your eyes are just suddenly getting heavy.

Yeah, you hypnotize yourself with mystery.

And then I put my sleep apma mask on.

How did this skin my car?

Hey?

What the whole thing is just And then suddenly you're in seventh grade and you have to take a test.

No, this is the worst.

My thing was I always had My dream was always I had to go back and I'd be like thirty five and I'd have to go back to high school and play a softball game, and I'd be like, you, guys, this is a this isn't fair because I'm old and b I can't, I won't be good, Like why are you making me do this?

Trying to reason with everybody, and they're just like, come on.

When you have to do something in your dream that you really don't want to do, you could get out of in real life by saying you, you know, have a headache.

Yeah, fuck this, I have a high the headache.

Fuck this forward slash.

Yeah.

It's just like I feel like, up until you were eighteen, you just had such a such little control over your life and we're still getting over it.

And like when I realized when I was like, had my first job at fifteen, and I walked into the candy out and I was like, I don't have to ask anyone if I could buy any fucking I could gorge myself on candy right now.

Yeah.

It was really freeing.

Yeah, and I did because it was your money.

It is my money to do whatever you want.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was there alone because you know, my parents neglected me.

For a second.

I thought you met you worked at that place, so you were like, you worked at the place where you could get the thing you wanted.

I worked at a place and had money to get the thing I wanted.

Yeah, but then when I worked in a bakery, yes, I would fucking accidentally break a ton of cookies.

Oh man, I worked at the coffee shop once that made the best oatmeal chocolate chip.

Cookies, or those like you know, those like Chantilly almond cookies that are like what are those called Florentines?

Yes, the ones that are shaped like that they have at Starbucks, that are shaped like shells circular.

No, that's a Madeline shit.

I mean, I'll leave any fucking cookie that's good to it.

But a florentine is what like?

Is it like crackly thin?

Like?

Does it have sugar on the top?

No?

Does it?

Does it have a face?

Its own face?

No, you're thinking of one of those clown ice.

Cream Oh that's right, that's right, a clown ice cream from baskt Rob.

Yes, there it is, Stephen.

Is that what they're called quarantine?

Dude?

Yes, kind crisp thin almondy one.

It's like almond and maybe like something like caramel, says the girl who fucking worked in baking for seven years of her life.

It must be caramel, yeah, because they're chewy or is it like a brown sugar?

Sounds screaming now, I'm making weird salive a noise.

Like they have these Trader Josh.

And they're half dipped in chocolate, yes the bottom.

So I can't buy those because I'll fucking eat them all.

Same here my dad started buying those.

Oh, I know, Steven Stephen showing me and I'm like, honey.

Steven started to pass the pictures around.

Look, honey, don't show me a picture of the thing I've eaten one thousand.

Listen, don't show me anything.

Can I introduce this this saying.

Don't show me anything?

And now this is another thing I say all the time that nobody knows what it means except for me, and I think it's hilarious.

Is there was this j Lo documentary quote documentary when like on VH one, when she was like making her clothing line for the first time and like early two thousands, and someone shows her this gene thing and she's like, I don't like it, and they're like, well, this is it, We've already manufactured, and she goes, don't show me nothing.

I can't change, Yeah, show me nothing, Like why are you?

And then why are you showing this to me?

And so sometimes she's like, don't show me anything I can't change.

Please, that's right.

Won't show me nothing I can't change.

That's I love her.

Oh sorry, I loved Jack.

What a bitch.

And you know, and you could see the girl who was like fresh out of fucking fit, fresh out of like fashion design college, just having an interor meltdown.

Yes, that's a serious mistake.

And it's like, oh, but we've already made fifty thousand.

Yeah, but this is what you said you wanted.

Yeah, and she's like, but now that the cameras are rolling it to seem like you're the boss.

Yeah.

Well and also you got a double check and maybe triple check that she did.

I bet you she did, think so, I think she did.

I'd love the behind the scenes.

Uh, it's like the fake behind the scenes and the real behind the scenes would be.

Just I mean, anyways, that's the show people actually want to see.

Uh huh.

Yes, the footage of the footage that.

Wasn't the footage that explains the behavior.

That's what we'll have if we ever have it doc You just like ram.

No holds barred, every single every single thing showed.

Karen, your hair looks great, and then be going why does Karen's hair look better for.

Night fired fired hired.

Then you hire somebody that doesn't do hair.

No, here, it's to prove a point.

Yeah, and you get them in there they do hair better than the person I have.

Then, so then I lure your person a welling.

God, melt down.

Fuck, this is good.

Then I fucking shaved my head just to be like, oh yeah.

Well, and that puts you in all the papers.

You get the most publicity.

It's just all I want in life.

God, this is Stephen.

You're writing this down right, This is the point.

Oh, it's being recorded.

We don't wait for recording.

Wait a second, Okay, do you want to do you want news?

I can do news corner.

I wrote some stuff down.

Some of it's not that great news corner about a crime thing.

Yeah, do it?

Okay.

So, uh, this was so hard for me not to tell you at the airport when we were on our way home from uh Austin, Oh, because I read it and I was like, this is so in Massachusetts a crime lab.

This woman named Annie Duke can was a restored for mishandling sixty thousand samples of it was a drug crime lab.

She like tested sixty thousand samples, and she mishandled them for thirty four thousand defendants.

One hundred and forty of those people were inmates because of her mishandling.

Oh so they have to let twenty three convicted people convicted got their sentences over to No.

Are they convicted of drug crimes?

Yes, So that doesn't bother me that much that.

They're convicted of drum crimes or they're they're to let go, and I agree, And then they're keeping the people who also had violent you know, it wasn't just a drug crime.

It was like a violent felony added onto that.

They're retrying those people.

Fuck, so these twenty three thousand people, twenty thousand o them, let's say, who were like I had an ounce of weed in my pocket, you know what I mean.

Yeah, they're like, oh, well it wasn't weed, it was a regano.

But this chick Annie like fucked it up purposely, really purposely.

She was trying to put people away.

She was trying to be the top dog and look how great I am at this job, and like have the most convictions and like, but she was just and all the people who worked with her were like this isn't right, And the people who were her boss were like, no, this is great.

Oh so they're trying to get an oversight on at crime Labs.

Now there's the new that's the TV movie I want to see.

But it reminds me of the story that I told you last week of the body that was found in the car with the Uber sticker on it.

And then a bunch of people wrote to us and said was it because you know, Kuba Gooden Junior's father was found dead in a car, but the guy in the car that I read about was in his thirties and so it's not the same.

A bunch of people were saying, what if this is what if this is the.

Thing, but COVID coatings Junior could his dad.

That's what I don't know.

That happened.

Yeah, it happened the same day.

And that's why a bunch of people were writing to us.

That's insane.

Yeah.

I have one more thing about podcasts.

I'm not saying like you're.

You're going back to podcast recommendation because.

And we both need to listen to this.

This week, Fresh Air has an interview with a woman who was a doctor at Bellevue Hospital with mentally ill inmates for ten years.

Dude, I saw somebody tweeted that to us, and I saw there is an amazing America Undercover, which used to be an HBO series A Day in the Life at Bellevue that we watched.

This was in the nineties and talked about four months afterwards because it's so disturbing, it's unbelievable, but it's also just that life to be a doctor.

I mean, that's what my mom did for a living.

So like to also watch it and just be like, yeah, this is your day to day.

It's so intense and you like, you know everything is wrong, but if you leave, it's just gonna get wronger because you're a good person trying to help, so like you can't really take yourself out of it because you feel like you need to try to do something to help.

Well.

Yeah, and most of those people have an incredible obviously like thick skin, but like they're not gonna quit.

That's not that's not it there.

They just like get stronger and tougher as the insanity grows around.

I mean, it's it's so intense.

I would love to hear that interview too.

It's just crazy the way mental mental illness was treated back then in a way that is horrifying to watch that documentary.

It's yeah, yeah, well that just made me think of something else.

Oh, I want you and I together?

Can we please promise to watch Casting Joen Benet together?

Absolutely, it's this Sunday.

Yes, Okay, can I come over because there's a wrestling thing that Vince's girl?

Yes, watching here?

We can do it from my house.

Okay, so good.

Then Casting Jambrenet is on the books Real Time Feelings.

Definitely do we live tweet or is that going too far?

Sure we could live tweet it.

Let's do it?

My favorite going too far?

Or have we truly crossed the line this time?

My favorite murder on Twitter?

Is what we are on Twitter?

It's what we are.

It's who we it's.

Who we've it's who we've lived as so long now, it's our identity, it's our spirit.

Go ahead, Uh, I'm done.

No, No, we want to talk about those cards that we got.

Oh my god, present corner.

Everything may have to be a corner.

I need to stop it.

We're recording in the daytime today and it's got a real I feel like we're really forced to analyze ourselves on this episode, we're really there's a lot of shoegazing, a lot of internal uh analysis.

In the light of day, this podcast looks real different.

There's no there's no Stephen doesn't have a beer.

I don't have wine.

Everyone's pores are really big.

Oh and the reason we're not recording from yesterday and in the evening is because one of my biggest fears in the fucking world happened, which is that a fucking big rig jumped the center Divideruck.

Is that true came into oncoming traffic, which is like a big fucking yeah.

Like I know when you're going like eighty in the fast lane and the center divider is like a brick.

Yeah, and you're like, any person could just jump over.

I picture it happening.

Yeah, Well it did happen.

Did happen out like down the street from both.

Of us, Yeah, so it basically between our houses it happened.

And then Steven texts and is like, oh no, like all these exits are closed, I can't get anywhere near your house.

And immediately I'm like, oh, well, should we rescheduled?

Just immediately, like okay, let's reschedule.

Hy bye, bye, cancel, cancel the house today.

I love to cancel.

Okay, So anyway, we uh, Georgia put this on Instagram.

We got these cards in the mail that are the most amazing greeting cards and they are there's a hand drawn and they're like just basically illustration.

You know, what do you call those pen and ink or something?

Pen and ink?

Is that redundant?

Inc I feel like pen and ink is a term, but I can't be wrong, But anyway, sketches.

Yeah, they're like it's a drawing.

So it's like a picture of John Wayne Gacy and then it says who ordered the birthday clown?

Or the Stephen King?

The Ted Bundy one I love, it's you know it's and it's a portrait of an actual photo of them that you've seen before, and it says, does anyone want to help me carry these birthday presents to my cards?

And then that one that Ted Bundy eyes are nuts?

Oh my god, they're great.

And then the one of Richard Ramirez holding his hand up in court, which usually has a pentagram on it, but instead it what does it say is happy birthday, which is like, okay, it's it might cross a line.

Somewhere, but it's like horrifying serial killers that you know are big in the society and we all know.

So I don't think it's like.

No, it's just references.

It's like you've seen his picture a thousand times now it's a birthday card.

And then okay, on top of that two things, he wrote a note with it in the style to us in the style of the Zodiac Killer, including saying at the end like, hey, I hope you like these blah blah blah.

I shot a man sitting in a parked car with a thirty eight like reading at the end, and then it says John John twelve s fpds like it's got all the characteristics of Zodiac And then so you can go to etsy dot com slash shop and the name of his Etsy is depressive ghoule gho.

You well, but it came to my house, your house house, which is my home.

Just so I uh, unsettling.

I brought this package to Stephen and Georgia when we were recording ads last Friday, and I said, let's open this together.

But just so you know, this got sent to my house.

And then you know, Karen is fiercely private, so I'm just like my dog's fiercely private and so so it was a little scary, but then they were so funny that we weren't that scared anymore because we were just laughing and kind of like going, can I have this one?

I want this one?

No one that clever.

There's even a Mother's Day one from like ed Gean, Yes, like no one that clever can be dangerous or they are.

It's like all right, And meanwhile we're looking at pictures, all pictures of people who are that clever and that dangerous.

But we're so good so anyway, so Georgia puts it we love them so much.

Georgia puts it on Instagram.

Blah blah blah.

Then two days later I get a DM from my Twitter friend John Fryler, and he writes, Hey, I'm glad you like those cards.

It seems like people on Instagram are mad at me for sending them to your house, though, and then I realize that this I know this person, and he asked me.

He was like, I think he tried to send them to the po box and they got sent back.

So I just gave him my home dress.

My friend John Fryler, who is he He's a guy I know on Twitter and basically I've known him for It's just that where he was like, I love your podcast, Can I send you this thing?

Did you have any idea how fucking talented this human?

No?

I had no idea how talented he was, and I had absolutely no memory of the conversation whatsoever until he basically was scared because Murderinos were like, hey, motherfucker, leave them alone.

No, yes, and so he was basically coming back with funny.

I didn't.

I didn't truly think someone was gonna come attack you.

No, I know, but I think it's that thing of like they don't want to be represented that way of like yeah we're not Yeah, we don't want to be creeps to you, So don't be a creep to them.

And he's like, hey, guess what.

Everybody I wasn't like.

We tried to give him a boost to like sell his cards, and they're like, fuck you.

It turned on him.

I'm sorry, John.

Everything about your package was amazing, amazing.

I was gonna give my mom what's the Mother's day?

Other Mother's Day one I can't remember, edgean and then something else, and I was like, I'm going to get this to my mom, just to horrify her for her Mother's Day.

Ed Kemper the co ed killer and staid the thing, it's so funny, Ed.

Kemper, he really did not like his mother.

No, So anyway, those are amazing and hilarious and that whole story.

If he hadn't written to me forever, I would have been just a little bit worried.

In the back of my mind.

You'd hear crunk leaves at night.

Yeah.

But also what's funny is I was like, Oh, we talked about that six months ago, and then I checked it was like a month ago.

Horrifying.

Oh we're good, horrifying, We're good.

Also, Uh, this is just the anecdote I wanted to tell you.

The other day, April and I were at our pre where we do our show hangout and I went to the bathroom and I was standing there and there's a woman that was waiting and she's like, sorry, there's somebody in there, and they're taking a really long time.

And we stood there for five full minutes.

Are you a knocker?

I'm a knocker.

I have a full arm knocker and a rage knocker.

So I was just like, get the fuck out of there.

Three minutes.

Yeah, so that's what you have.

Finally a guy comes out of the men's room and then the woman there, another girl came and was waiting behind me, and we were both like, just he's the men's room.

They're singles for sure.

So she goes in there.

The girl behind me steps up to like, wait, so now she's second in line or whatever, and she looks and goes, oh my god, I was just listening to your podcast whatever.

So we have a moment.

Her name was Mia, I believe from what I remember.

We have a moment, chit chat whatever.

And then we're just and I knock again the whole thing and does anyone respond no?

And I was like, I was like, nice, we need to get a waitress over here.

I go, I bet someone's passed out on the toilet.

Well, finally Mia steps up and tries the door knob and it's open.

We were standing there for I'm not kidding, like almost ten minutes with an empty, unlocked bathroom door, just standing there.

Oh my god, and like, and you got angry out of it, you know what I mean.

I was mad twice.

Oh my god.

When the other girl came out of the men's room where you're like, listen, bitch.

No, that was she was like coming gone, but when she opened it, I just yelled dude in her face and walked it like it was the funniest moment.

It was really fun.

It was a fun moment.

Hi, Hi to you.

I hope your name was Mia, because I'm pretty sure it was.

That's good, man.

People need to We were talking about at live shows, and I'm fucking a big fan of this because it's like seventy percent women that before the show starts and there's like Vince goes out to like look around and he's like, there's the craziest line in the women's restroom.

And I know that in on the weekends at the Ferry Building in San Francisco, they'll close one of the men's room two women only, and they're like, men, go upstairs and use the bathroom because there's five of you, and they turn the men's room into a one's room, which I think is so fucking forward thinking and so fucking awesome, and I appreciate it very much, and I think we should.

I think some of the places we do shows do that already, but I think we should all do that you're just staring at me.

Do you not agree?

No, I don't know.

I'm just thinking of all that, the bathroom politics that people.

I mean, it just immediately put me in that place of like, oh, all the people that are like and then the people that will go into the room and all that shit where it's like, no, that's not a real thing.

Yeah, just pee, that's not Yeah, it's a public place, You're fine, And yeah it should be.

It should be dictated by the numbers.

Like have you ever seen there's a really funny picture of the women's restroom line at a Rush concert.

It's like no one there at all.

Oh my god.

It's same question.

And I'm not asking for myself necessarily, But if you're in a public restaurant it's pretty you know, sizable at the airport and you're peeing, is a public restroom and okay place to fart?

Yeah, I think that's the only place, okay, because sometimes I'm like societally acceptable.

I mean, it's they can still hear it just as loudly as if you were at the sink, but.

They can't see your face.

That's all that matters, right, good, it's all about shame.

Yeah, just do it where you can't.

I mean, especially at the airport.

Jesus Christ.

Everyone has gas at the airport.

Gotta do it.

Airport is fit.

That's how the planes fly.

They're fueled on everyone's gas from airport food, too much alcohol, nine bottles of water.

Yeah, nerves, nerves, fear you're gonna get dragged off the plane for no reason.

Constipation from massive pharmaceuticals.

Oh, just to get the anxiety away.

I never thought about that.

There's so many more pharmaceuticals at the airport.

Yeah, I just didn't think.

I didn't neither.

That's exactly right, dude, have you ever seen that?

And we'll get it then we'll get onto business skippers.

Have you ever seen that?

I can't.

It's not night vision, but it's like heat vision footage of a guy that farts.

Oh no, I didn't like those so funny.

You don't like it because they do it for people walking on the street, not people who know.

Right, that's exactly right.

But they don't show the person.

It's just the torso down.

Yeah, but they just show so you can actually see what it looks like when someone farts.

This like the cloud.

It's the funniest thing I've ever seen.

I hate it.

And it reminds me of when people would tell the kids that if you pee in the pool, like there's a die and it will make it show up green.

And so it's not true, but you're terrified.

It's just reminds me of that where it's like shame right on top of you.

That's right, Yeah, it's shaming you coming out of you human.

Yes, although peanupool is a human Peina pool's enjoyable, it's I.

Mean, you got to expect some level of pean a pool.

Well, yeah, especially with children, but also because if you're in a warm enough pool, it's kind of like that trick where you put your hand someone's sleeping hand in a glass to make them look the better.

But you're in a pool, it's like that same feeling.

But it's so it's so hard to get yourself to peana pool.

Like to start, you're not supposed to be free leaping, You're not supposed to be like this is against societal norms.

You got like train not to do this when you were too.

Yes, that's true, do it, but if other people are in the pool, that's gross.

And then what if you had vitamins that day.

People are swimming there, like this pool water tastes weird.

No, but I have that yellow I love that yellow pee.

When you take vitamins yeah, and you're just like, oh fuck.

It looks like you were in Chernobyl.

And then you're like, oh, no, that's a vitamin B.

Yeah.

Everything beats and your pea is red.

Oh I've never had that happen.

You're like, oh.

God, I'm bleeding from my pee and then you're like, over, oh wait, a beats yesterday seriously, Oh I went to see plantation and we are back.

Oh.

We just can't talk about this enough.

It's the citing sources issue that we learned our lesson in last episode.

Like every lesson that we've learned on this podcast, we learn it publicly, and we learn it with a lot of hostility coming from the other side.

This guy wordy fucking pissed.

It was crazy.

Also, it was that kind of thing where it's an interesting way to mark time because I was using Twitter as like a comedian and a person who is just trying to post jokes, and this is around the time I was like, I can't use Twitter in the same way anymore.

It was mostly because I can't.

You know, my favorite joke is telling people to shut up and seeing their reaction.

They didn't like that.

Do you think, like twenty seventeen, a male journalist coming after you publicly in that way is like cool.

It wasn't a cool experience.

But I have to say he was right.

I mean, there's no arguing the fact that the combination of things where it's like it looked intentional that I didn't credit Gary Bowman until the end of the episode for just a like basically a poll quote.

So I did it wrong, and like that's that.

And this is kind of the risk that we are always against because you always do stuff wrong and like that's fine as long as you go oh, and I think this is kind of like how we did it from the beginning.

It's like, you know, saying prostitute because that was what was in the article, and people writing in and being like can you please say sex worker?

Yes we can.

It's not that big of a deal to say you did something wrong totally.

So it was very jolting and alarming to have a guy like yelling at me and then I was like, okay, I'll fix It's like that's not enough or whatever, where I'm just like, well, I'm not in a fight with you.

Was aggressive, I don't know you, but happy to fix it, want to fix it.

And certainly I think it's interesting because that is, you know, the guy that did it is basically responsible for the way we now always make sure to cite sources at the top of the page.

Ye, because you know what I mean, we totally do.

Yeah, and no one, I mean we said it before, but it's like, no one thinks he fucking wrote these things.

No, no one believes.

He didn't investigate now these pieces ourselves in a week.

No.

But it's also great to be able to start naming the people who did the hard work.

So it's like we can only talk about this because Gary Baum went out there and did the work.

Yeah.

I love that.

Yeah, in a different world we would be investigative journalists.

But that's too much college.

Yeah, I just I don't think me as an owl alcoholic I would have been able to do it in a way.

Yeah, but the beginning part.

Couldn't do the you know, school.

Same or work with depression and anxiety.

Yeah, no, nothing, not when my bet is calling.

But thank you, Gary Baum did it yeah.

Oh one quick corrections corner.

I refer to the host of the podcast that I fall asleep to.

Back then it's called Mysteries Abound, And I say it was a British Man because back then the podcast has done something for me too.

Where I now can hear the difference between British, Australian and New Zealand accents?

Yep, but I couldn't then, and I called Jim Moon British.

He's actually Australian and I missed that podcast so much.

Mystery doesn't make so good.

He doesn't do new ones anymore and ended in October twenty nineteen, but you can still hear the old episodes.

He has such a soothing ASMR voice.

Yeah, he's talking about mysterious things like how quickly do you want to fall asleep?

When you think of that, it's great, yeah, because you start kind of imagining things and then suddenly your plane rides over.

You're fine, amazing.

And there's some updates in the Anni Dukean misconduct case that we talked about, which led to the largest dismissal of wrongful convictions in US history.

So by twenty nineteen, more than sixty one thousand drug convictions had to be thrown out because the evidence couldn't be trusted in sane.

It's one of the biggest cleanups of wrongful convictions in US history.

In twenty twenty one, the state's highest court erase one hundred more convictions, saying it wouldn't be fair to make people go through new trials after the huge mistakes.

Imagine those people who had been in prison because this woman wanted to be better at convicting than other people.

Yeah, it's happened a lot.

I think there's for sure.

She's just people caught getting into that position.

Yeah.

Right.

In twenty twenty four, legal experts said this case set an important rule.

If the system is broken, the state has to fix it, not the individual people who were harmed.

Yeah.

So that's great that the burden now goes to the state to correct its mistake when systematic misconduct is uncovered.

Yeah, very important.

Also very important is that we talked about the casting John Ben a TV show, which is still one of the weirdest experiences I feel like I've ever We started watching that thinking you had this great watch along idea, Yeah, and immediately we're just like stop the tape happening.

Is this Why are you doing this?

Yeah?

It was very of a time.

It was of that time, totally, Yeah, for sure.

Okay, wow, there's so much business yep, top.

But now let's get into Georgia's story about the exorcism of Anna Lise Mitchell.

Okay, I think I went first last time, didn't I?

Yes, you did, didn't I, Stephen?

I can't believe I knew.

I can't either that you knew because I didn't.

This would have taken me ten minutes to remember.

It's probably because I was I had to go first for some reason.

See it as a negative?

Oh you do?

I do?

I wonder almost like I don't mind either way.

Like you have to break the ice or something.

But I feel that that if you go last, then you have to be like you have to close it hardy, you know what I mean.

So I don't like going last because I don't, then I can let you close it hard Yeah.

Shit, I forgot about that part.

Okay, let's just go back and forth every week.

That's a good idea.

When you figured that out after how many episodes is this seventy sixty seven sixty seven sixty Stephen?

You should know that Stephen sixty six sixty seven, good old Lucky sixty six sixty six is not lucky.

This is the Devil's episode.

God, do you think we'll ever get to six hundred?

Yes, for sure, that'd be crazy, right we.

Start tripling up.

Oh that sounds I want to go take a nap just hearing that.

Anyways, are you ready for the exorcism of Annalise mckew?

Fuck?

Yes, I am, Yeah, you are all right.

Annalise mckow was born on September twenty first, nineteen fifty two, in led Flig Nope, label flying lebel Fling, lebel Fling.

It's not lebel Fling.

I bet you went it l E I V L liberal libel f I n G libel thing.

Anyway.

She was born in Bavaria, West Germany.

Bavaria sounds a good yeah, West Germany, which is a pretty yeah.

Okay, it's a pretty forward thinking phase.

It's not place.

It's not the fucking Styx, West Germany, you know, No Bavaria.

No.

Anyways.

She lived with her three sisters and her parents, and they family were devout Roman Catholics.

They attended Mass like twice a week, and Anna, as she was known she led a pretty normal wife.

You know, you see pictures of her, there's a lot of pictures of her.

She's pretty, she looks very normal, you know.

As a teenager, she's just a normal girl.

And her classmates described her as withdrawn and very religious.

Sorry whish part with drawn or Mary any or the combination of the two is like, you think you're better than you think God likes you more than me.

Yeah he doesn't, but you saying them being a Roman Catholic and going to church twice a week.

I just being a raised Catholic.

There's a there's a another echelon of Catholicism of people that go multiple times a week that makes me feel like I'm being suffocated invisibly when I hear about it.

It's just that kind of like it's such a ritualistic old.

Almost like it's all it's like it's like ancient.

It's ancient, and it's kind of like, I don't know, it just fit.

It worries me.

Tell us non Catholics, like fiercely non Catholics myself, what is mass like?

Because I've been in a church three times in my life.

It's long, It's like an hour long and it is a series of and songs, and then in the middle in Latin.

No no no.

In the fifties, and then in this time they might have done it in Latin.

Because it's definitely done it in German, that's for sure, at least not in English.

But in the late fifties early sixties, I think they passed a thing called Vatican two where they updated everything.

So like when my dad was growing up, my parents were growing up, the Mass was in Latin and you took Latin in school and all that.

So like Vatican, the sequel Vatikan two, this electric Bogelist came.

Out this time were not Latin anymore, that's.

Right, And they kind of basically updated it so that it was all in English, and they cut some stuff out, and they just made it a little more maybe livable.

I know, accessible passed a couple extra laws.

I'm not sure the details.

I've been told it multiple times, so I just don't remember anything.

I just tried to update it from the sixteen hundreds.

I think they allowed guitars for some certain kinds of hippies if they wanted to do it that way.

Nobody that I knew did it that well.

Well, analyst did not have a guitar, and she did not go to the version two point zero.

They did not of mass at one point, you do eat the body of Christ.

That's kind of the main point of mass.

You snick a snack on the body of Christ.

That's right.

Like the spread afterwards is like, no, it's.

All in the middle.

You drink of his blood and you eat of his body, and then you basically are forgiven for all your sins, because as immortal, you sin constantly and you have to constantly ask for forgiveness.

So it's just a little background.

So many questions.

That's that waifer, right, mm hmm.

And the blood is wine.

Yeah, but in most masses, the normal people don't drink the wine.

The priest drinks it on your behalf.

What a dick, You're like, I'm good, dude, I don't need you to do it for me.

This yeah, okay.

Then, at age sixteen, she suffers an severe epileptic fit and is diagnosed with temporal low epilepsy and depression.

That what you have.

I don't think I have depression, although sure get lows sometimes, but mine is petitue.

You have petite mal No.

Grand when I have them.

They're grand.

Karen doesn't do anything half assed, but they also call.

It seizure disorder.

It's a different I'm sure it's.

Yeah, okay.

She's treated at a psychiatric hospital and is put on anti convulsion meds.

I'm sure the psychiatric hospital is not chill antipsychotics and mood stabilizers as well as anti convulsion drugs.

When the convulsions continued and none of it alleviated the problem, she was prescribed another drug, allept eloped nope, which is similar to chlorprasm.

Why didn't I take this part out?

It's used in the treatment of various psychosis, including schizophrenia, disturbed behavior, and delusions.

And by nineteen seventy three she's suffering and from depression.

It starts hallucinating while praying.

She complains about hearing voices telling her that she was damned and would rotten hell, and her treatment in a psychiatric hospital did not approve her improve her health and her depression got worse despite the meds.

Long term treatment did not help, and she'd grew increasingly frustrated with a medical intervention.

She'd tear her clothes off, she'd eat coal, and she'd urinate on the floor and then try to look it up.

Huh yeah, the Okay, let's.

Played diagnose her right now, she's got schizophrenia.

Well she's she's developing schizophrenia.

Or has it.

But also I used to always be fascinated.

There's a there's an illness called pika, which is you the need to eat inedible things, which it sounds like she has, but that might be a symptom of a bigger I think this schizophrenia.

Itself, and pika is like you're low on some necessary.

Minerals.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

A lot of people eat dry wall.

My friend had the incredible urge.

She never did it, as far as I know, to eat laundry detergent.

Oh yeah, well that's like on my crazy obsession.

There's a show on TLC where.

People couch stuffing.

Yes, the lady who ate the couch.

Yeah, so nuts.

So this same friend had bought, like or stole from a pharmacy epicac oh, and she was like, i'mbeliemic, I'm gonna try it, And then she did it and she was like, that was the worst experience.

And I think she's stopped being billiemic after that because it was the worst experience of her life.

Because syrup of epicac just makes you vomit horrible.

Everything you everything you have in your stomach.

It's for children to eat poison.

Yeah, so a lot of parents will have it on hand just in case anyways.

And it gives you like food poisoning, barfing.

It's it's wretching until your entire stomach contents are just gone.

Anyways, that was a sidebar.

Sidebar And also what no, just I just love how we're just like maybe it's this and maybe it's that.

Anyway.

Yeah, yeah, we're really we're really doing a service to everything.

So she finished high school and when she was twenty she started studying at the University of Wurzburg.

So she went to university even though she had these issues.

And I couldn't complete community college.

For more than a year, like that's I could barely hold down a job.

Good for her, Yeah, I mean I'd walk out of jobs sometimes she's never come back.

Her symptoms had significantly worse, and though oh she was studying to become a teacher, but her problems got worse.

She heard voices telling her I already said that she saw devil faces.

She became suicidal, and her family believed that she was suffering from demonic possession.

Oh, jump to demonic possession.

Yeah.

A family friend arranged a pilgrimage to a sacred spring in San Domiano, and her friend became convinced that she was possessed because her inability to walk past a crucifix and drink holy water.

Do you drink holy water?

No?

And what's the inability?

Everyone's hands have been in it?

I wouldn't neither.

Yeah, I've never heard of drinking it as a except for in like horror movies.

Okay, but what I don't know, Maybe it's different in West Germany.

I'm not sure.

She became aggressive, and she took to self harming, and she would okay, and she ate insects.

She growled at religious icons and would sit under her kitchen table barking for two days.

So the family sought help from the church.

And then the thing that's causing the problem is where they go for help.

Yeah, I mean yeah, it's like every single solution, aside from like the psychiatric place, every single solution is religious base.

Well, it's like when you hear of those parents who like these days, who refuse to go to the doctor to get help, and then they get arrested and their kid dies because it really just needed penicillin or whatever the fuck or yeah, and the kid dies and they get they get convicted and of child neglect.

Yeah.

So yeah, Anyways, many of the priests they saw said Annalise needed a doctor.

Even the priests were like, hey, yeah, but one eventually said that she needed an exorcism, and then she was granted one.

You have to get granted next to be exercised, under the condition that would be done in total secrecy.

And her parents were like that sounds on the level.

Let's fucking do it right, Like everyone's like no, no, no, go to a doctor, go to a doctor.

One's like sure, just don't tell anyone.

Yeah, great, that's what we've been waiting to hear.

Well, maybe because they were trying to be progressive, and there's exorcisms are about as like retro as you could be in the church.

Definitely.

So in seventy five, she and her parents stop seeking medical advice altogether.

So three days after her twenty seventh birthday twenty second birthday, and over the next ten months, father Arnold Rents and Pastor ernst Alt for sixty seven exorcisms on her WHOA for fucking yeah, sick ten months and sixty seven like series of exorcisms, and it said that every but they say that every action that they took during these times and rituals were all condoned by analyst who's fucking mentally ill.

She's like, yeah, bring it on, this is what I need.

Why are you letting she shouldn't be she shouldn't have decision making capacities anymore.

Well, also, what if nothing else is working?

What else are you going to do?

I mean, if if you've gone to hospitals and you've and nothing is changing it, then of course you're like, yes, keep trying this other thing.

Yeah.

They would attempt to drive the demons from her body while she would argue with them into demonic voices, and guess what, they fucking taped them all, audio tape them all and videotape them.

WHOA would you.

Rather watch and listen to one of those or listen to a nine on one call?

Uh?

One of those?

Sure?

Having been a Catholic?

Yes, it's terrifying, is it?

Yeah?

I mean it's it's terrifying because it's scary and her voice is insane.

But it's also horrifying because you can tell it's just like there's someone acting in a way that like they're mentally ill, and it's like it was almost like it was like a ramping her up.

Yeah, it's really fucking horrifying.

Wait, so when you listen to it, you didn't believe she was possessed.

You believed that she was mentally ill and well basically answering the call that they.

Were and having fits of like moments of mental illness.

And I don't believe in Like, it's not like I would have believed that because I don't believe in God and the devil and all this, okay, But so all I could see it was from a mental illness point of view, because that's all I have to hold me together and explain myself.

Then me, she stopped eating altogether.

She believed it would lessen the evils control over her, and she got so weak with her parents had to hold her up when she got too weak to do it herself, so they would like hold her up, take her to bed, carry her around.

Shit.

And there's these fucking photos, man, So she was this normal, pretty regular young woman and the photos look like they're from a horror movie.

Oh no, I mean her like she has these like blisters on her mouth.

She ends up being sixty pounds.

Oh no, she looks.

Like And do you ever see the photo of the like when they found someone's sister in the back room who had scoliosis and they just left her back there and stars like starved her.

And they found her in like the seventies back there and took photos of her, and she was alive, which is also terrifying.

She looked like that.

She look like an old woman.

Oh no, it's really horrible, but you can tell it's her.

I've never heard of that Scoliosa's story.

It's really sad.

It was making me think of a part in pet Cemetery where the sister sits up in bed.

It might be that.

Well, I mean, you know what, do you think that's what it is?

That's what that scary thing where she sits up at least last her.

Okay, that, but it looks like that.

Yes, so what I was talking about was fiction.

No no, no, because then it also please it's like people haven't been fucking abandoned and locked into back rooms or whatever.

No, but it just like the way you just described that.

I was like, oh wait, that's the best part of that fucking movie.

Best worst part of that.

Movie, it is.

I forgot all about that part because I thought it was real.

But that's what she looked like, Okay, essentially horrifying, unkempt, way too thin, like clearly to go from.

And you look at her and there's no way.

She's twenty two in your mind to go to that level.

Is just like the fact that they could keep doing that to her despite this is unconscionable.

So she died in her sleep on July first, nineteen seventy six.

She weighed sixty six pounds.

Her knees were broken due to prolonged and repetitive geniflections.

Yeah, that was kneeling down as.

Part of the exorcisms, and she was immobile and had ammonia.

She broke her knees from kneeling over and over.

Broke her knees.

That's fucking insane.

The knees are hard to break.

Oh, I know, man.

The autopsy reports to say that her death resulted from malnutrition and dehydration due to almost a year of semi starvation during the exorcisms.

The death was investigated, and the state prosecutor found that Anna's death was preventable.

Even as late as one week prior to her death, they could have saved her.

Her parents and the two priests were charged with negligent homicide, and the trial began on March thirtieth, nineteen seventy eight.

The priests were defended by church paid lawyers and the parents were defended by a dude who claimed that the exorcism was legal, and then the German constitution protected citizens in the unrestricted exercise of their religious beliefs.

So it's like, if you believe it, just do it.

Yeah, you know, it's like nike it.

They played.

It seems like you made yourself sad on that one.

I did, because well, person, I was like, that's not a good exorcism, just to do it, you know what I mean.

It's like, that's not.

That's not a good attitude about exorcism.

No.

They played the court the audio tapes from the exorcisms, which they maintained proved that she was possessed due to the appearance of demonic voices on the tapes.

The priest tested by the Anna was possessed by several demons, claiming to be Lucifer Cain, Judas Scariot.

Judas is Scariot.

He's the one that turned on Jesus.

Thank you, you're welcome.

It's in there for a reason, and now I know why.

That's amazing.

Look at you.

Who's Hitler?

Now, which one of the saints is Hitler?

Hitler came out of her Yeah, they said, also Hitler and Nero, Jesus is Jesus.

It's all star villain.

No Jesus.

Jesus wasn't there are clearly no Jesus is against them.

He was nowhere to be found in this situation.

Nope, he didn't come to visit Hitler.

Fuck, guess who's coming to dinner?

Not Jesus.

He took a pass on this dinner party.

He latered right out of there.

Nero, my god, Nero's that the Roman what do you call it, Caesar or Augusta whatever, the guy that, oh, my god, I cadd He's the guy that that fiddled well, Rome burned.

He was the last emperor of Rome.

Okay, history and math and science not my thing and anything.

Really.

They also noted that the exorcisms apparently finally worked.

They said it worked immediately prior to her death.

So oh well, so it worked, so unfortunate.

Yeah.

They also noted that the uh they okay, they were found guilty of a manslaughter, sentenced to six months imprisonment which was later suspended, and three years of probation.

And there's a photo of her mont at the funeral, open casket like prone next to her daughter's corpse that she effectively killed.

Her story is dramatized in the films The Exorcism, Emily Rose Requiem, which I watched, and Analise the Exorcist tapes, So like, this is where they all came from.

Is pretty much the chicks fucking experiences.

Yeah, despite the fact that in nineteen eighty four the bishops declared Annalise mentally ill.

So even the bishops were like, remember what we said, they said, she's not possessed, but still her grave became a pilgrimage center for fringe believers of course, okay.

And then this made me think of this book I recently read called Brain on Fire by Susan Callahan.

Have you heard of it?

No, It's really good, And then I looked it up to find out details of it because in it she talks about how this disease that she had, they now think is linked to a lot of what they thought was the exorcism signs.

And so I look this up.

It's not my I'm not fucking this has already been talked about a lot on the internet as far as Brain on Fire is concerned.

So it's not me being like, oh my god, I just put it together like everyone put it together.

Yeah, So Susannah and book Brain on Fire is really fucking good.

She's twenty four, she's a writer at the New York Post, and she starts going fucking crazy.

She comes fixated on the idea that her home was infested with bedbugs.

She like calls a bedbug guy in to like clean out her, like what the fuck, and he's like, there's no bed bugs in here.

She's paranoid, irrational, laughing and crying all the time.

Her family thought she's having a nervous breakdown, and they like kind of blow her off and give her antipsychotics and then anti seizure meds when she starts having seizures, so along the same lines, and she is eventually finally diagnosed with anti m NMDA receptor encephalitis, which is caused when the body's immune system goes haywire and attacks of protein in the brain that helps neurons communicate.

Fuck yeah, which sounds a lot like Alzheimer's.

Yes, they're linking it to the that too, And it was like there was one doctor who was able to finally figure it out.

And the way he figured it out is when he had her draw a clock and she drew the circle and wrote all of the numbers tightly on the right hand side, so the brain wasn't computing, it wasn't even seeing in the other side, and she thought it was normal, you know what I mean.

Yes, so, because I feel like I've seen that picture, right, Yeah, so she was.

So it's the same receptor that's blocked by PCP or ketamine, and both drugs can make a normal person act like someone with schizophrenia, so, which I didn't know.

That sounds terrifying.

Why would you take those drugs.

The seventies, I think most people accidentally smoked PCP.

Yeah, there was a lot of like because that's angel dust, right, Yeah, yeah.

We're accidentally on purpose because the drug wars were fucking racist and horrible.

That's true.

Uh, look it up, look up nero.

Whether dare you look it up?

No, I didn't mean it like that.

I'm like you better.

Yeah, I'm right.

No, I didn't mean like, I don't know you look it up.

I don't care not, I want like you know what I mean.

I just want to make clear.

Yes, the diseases the disease Stephen make me sound like I can breathe, we can do this.

The disease typically strikes young women, and symptoms worsen and include agitation, paranoia, delusions, hallucinations and seizures, and psychosis.

Fuck.

Yeah, I'm not literally thinking back in the nineties of like did I have paranoia?

Did I have was I hallucinating?

But I did you think?

Do you remember?

Because like schizophrenia hits younger women, it seems like really that's really the main demographic.

Yeah, and so did you ever be like, shit, man, if I'm going to hit it, this is going to be like a twenty four I was like, get out of this.

Yes, without schizophrenia, Well yes, because the uh so, the brain grows like a certain way every seven years, a certain amount every seven years.

That's like this.

So that's why they say it's when you're you know, twenty one whatever.

It goes in sevens of when they think when they most commonly diagnose it, So they say, and when I was at the end, it was I was twenty eight and it was my fourth one or whatever.

A few Yeah, your fourth seizure.

I was like the cycle or whatever where I was when I read that thing about the brain growing.

And that's why sometimes people have seizures, and sometimes they have them and never have them again.

I had one at fourteen, No, twelve, Yeah, I had one at twelve.

Your brain is little.

My brother had one too, Yeah, and pretty commers that because it's just complicated.

Well, yeah, then it makes sense why a young woman comes in with fucking symptoms that look like schizophrenia, who's like twenty three or four, And of course it's just an obvious diagnosis.

But then when the brain the drugs don't work, you know that's a sign it's not.

But you know, they didn't doctors a lot didn't want to look into that more and would just send you to someone else.

And well, it's like when they're supposed to be the final word, and if they don't know what to do, then what do you do.

She's spent, she said, She's spent one hundred thousand, No, no, no, she said a million dollars on different drugs to try to tackle this, Jesus, and none of it worked.

And then finally this guy's like, draw a clock and she's like what and draws it and it didn't cost anything to draw the clock and for him to be like you have this?

Wow?

Okay, So anyways, that's not this isn't about her.

Uh So, it's now speculated that anti NMDA receptor and cephalitis could be behind historical descriptions of what was believed to be demonic possession, including in The Exorcist when she walks on her walk.

How do you explain that?

Is she backwards crab walks?

Yes, that's like your bones get stiff, your body like turns into these crazy folds and stuff like that, and that's one of the fucking things that happened.

Really, Yeah, that's crazy.

Yeah, So that exact symptom of demonic possession is actually a symptom of this.

Wow.

So appropriate diagnosis and treatment more than eighty percent of patients have a good outcome.

And then I wrote the worst line I've ever written to end a story because I didn't allow how else to do it?

Susan Callahan got better, but unfortunately Anna Lisee Michelle didn't have the chance.

I know.

I mean, listen, I think they're making a movie out of it.

Brain on Fire really fucking interesting.

I would love to see that or rehab It, you can have it.

I do want to read that.

Uh I saw I think Requiem is that the one that's in Germany.

That movie is so upsetting.

I saw the first I would say two thirds of it, and then when she started having seizures, when it started getting into that thing, I was like, oh, I don't want to watch a girl have seizure.

It looks so horrifying when she has a seizure.

Yeah, I mean.

It's just well, it is really.

I mean you picture back when demonic possession was conceived and when it was people who like, if you had a brain disorder in you know, medieval times or the Dark Ages, you were just fucked because there was no treatment.

There was nothing to be done.

In the Dark Ages and the fucking nineties at Belheu Hospital, like a seizure you were you know, if they couldn't control it right.

Well, they can control it, they just don't know why you're having it unless they go in and they go have brain surgery and they look to find if there's scars on your brain, but like, if there's no, if you don't have like, oh, I've gotten a car accent and this is what's happening.

If you don't have a story that they can put a storyline to, then they're just like, we don't know.

And that's in the beginning of my seizure disorder journey.

In the beginning, they were just like, Oh, this is just alcohol withdrawal.

This is what happens to alcoholics.

I, of course, then with absolutely no shame whatsoever, was like, but I've never stopped drinking, so how could i have withdrawal, no withdrawal situation happening?

But you know, and then it turned out that that wasn't what it was because I still have seizures to this day.

I knew things were happening, and I had injuries, and I'd weird you know, I'd weird eye because of the aura of my seizure is my eyes flick around.

And so when that first started, I would driving and it felt to me like I was looking at the other cars coming like I have a very specifical memory of driving down fountain and just check.

I felt like I was checking the other cars, and so I was like, oh, am I crazy now that I'm like OCD checking cars.

But it turned out it was my eyes just going eh uh, because that's the aura.

And then you seem paranoid a little because you can't stop looking at the cars.

I mean, I didn't think that, okay, but you could put that together if you were a doctor trying to figure out what the hell was going on.

All of that stuff fits totally.

But the idea that they just keep going back to the church or to Catholicism to fix it is just like, oh, it's heartbreaking.

Yeah, I know, broken knee caps is not cool.

Oh that's such a specific thing of like, okay, this is the thing you can point to of excessive what she went through, that specific thing of her knees being broken from fucking.

Yeah, someone should have said stop way fucking earlier than when she weighed sixty six pounds.

It's insanity.

It doesn't make sense.

And the whole time she was on board with it.

So they were probably like, because they're priests, these people haven't know she was because she was.

No, I'm saying because priests are doing it to her.

She's a devout Catholic.

Those they drink the blood of Christ.

They know better than doctors.

Their like final word.

It makes me think too of did you watch Taboo, the Tom Hardy series on FX.

Oh wait, we watched a couple episodes.

There was just one near the end his sister who's married, and she's just like a rebel.

She's just like a fuck you rebel for lots of different reasons.

Her husband finally decides that she's possessed by the devil and has someone come to exercise the demons inside her, and she basically just get gets molested by this priest.

And it's that thing too of women in society over the years, where it's like when you did have these people and it's not you know, it's not the exact same thing every time, obviously, but that it's such a good example of like women having no you know, own rights or ownership over their own fucking bodies.

So then it was like, if you're Sassin back and saying fuck and all this stuff, then you're possessed by the devil.

And then two men come in and get to just do what they want to quote unquote get rid of the devil inside you, and you are just tied down and you know you have to take it.

Well, it's the same thing as far as in like the fifties and sixties and seventies, where it's like my wife is being rebellious and or depressed and it's like we'll give her a fucking pill lobotomy.

Oh shit, yeah, the lovotomy situation.

Oh man, I'm like, she doesn't want to be a fucking housewife anymore.

She's going crazy.

Okay, we're back.

Do you have any updates on this case?

No updates on this case.

But the book I mentioned, Brain on Fire by Susannah Kahalan, which I still highly recommend in relation to this case, was turned into a film by the same name for Netflix, and Chloe Grace Moretz was the woman who played the author who wrote about this incredible experience she had that just I think about it all the time when you hear about extracisms and how freaking just dark it is.

Wild.

Yeah, yeah, Okay.

Let's keep going with the bad yes, and get into Karen's story about Jack Hunterwager, the Vienna Strangler.

Okay, we're going back to We're going back to the area that you were just in from mine.

What are the odds?

So we were talking to somebody yesterday who said, do you guys take requests?

And we were kind of like, but then he said, do you know about this guy?

And the second he started talking, I knew who he was talking about, and I got that thing that I always get when people talk to me about cases, where if I know I just want to interrupt them immediately and be like, it's this, this, this, and this.

But well, that's what I did, and you we're quiet, so you're probably like writing it down.

I was just mentally noting.

But that's what I wanted to do, was just be like and I think at some point I did say something.

But it is so hilariously frustrating when it's somebody's going like, have you ever heard of this thing?

And then they tell you the whole story and you can't.

You can't immediately just be like yes or correct them.

So I knew if I had such strong feelings, I should tell that story.

So awesome.

I love it.

That's like such a quick turnaround.

I know I heard about it yesterday.

Yeah, and look at me now.

So this is the story of Jack Unterwigger, the Vienna Strangler, and it's so crazy.

This should be much more well known and talked about.

It's so crazy.

Okay, So essentially just to give you a little background on Vienna, Austria, which I can't tell you how many times I got confused while I was writing this, forgetting that Vienna is the city within Austria and not Austria as a city itself.

So much to learn, so much, so many ways to grow.

I feel like we're learning so much this episode.

I mean growing.

It's kind of like being in school.

It's school time, it's school time of day.

We're dotting our Everything's all right.

So in two thousand and five, there was a study of one hundred and twenty world cities and Vienna ranked a tied with Vancouver and San Francisco as the world's most livable city, and then in twenty eleven and twenty fifteen it was ranked second behind Melbourne, Australia, and it is It is classified by the United Nations Human Settlements Program as the most prosperous city in the world.

Wow, twenty twelve, twenty thirteen.

Let's move there.

So it's fancy pansy.

They don't they barely have that meant much crime?

They have very little murder, very little.

So on New Year's Eve nineteen ninety, a woman's body is found by hikers in the forest in western Austria.

Her name was Heidi Hammern.

She was a thirty one year old sex worker.

She was nude, face down, posed and had been strangled with her own stockings that were tied in a complex slip knot.

Oh never wears.

I'm never wearing stockings because that's all they're used for, you know what I mean.

In these stories?

Absolutely?

Yeah.

So five lays days later, in the city of Grouts, hikers find the body of Brunhilda Masa in a forest.

She's partially buried.

She's been posed in the same manner as Heidi was.

She was strangled with her own bra that was tied in a complex slipknot.

I don't wear bras.

I'm just taking off all my clothes for this episode.

There's all these solutions, solutions, no bras.

Okay.

So the police can't find any usable evidence on either of the bodies, except that Heidi had a bunch of red fibers all over her that didn't match anything that she was wearing.

They took those fibers put in a bag for later.

But it was so uncommon that anything like this would happening would be happening, that these murders hit the papers and everybody in Austria is freaking out.

So they have a crime reporter named Jack Unterweger who takes to the streets to talk to police and sex workers about these crimes for Austrian National Radio.

Like it is, I was trying to say it fast, so you've noticed that, but he refused nothing on the streets.

He interviews sex workers about the fear that they're feeling, and he goes to the police and talks to the investigators about whether or not they have any idea of who they're looking for, and the police tell him they have no idea.

What a great ruse.

Meanwhile, in Los Angeles, California, that's where we live, a thirty five year old sex worker named Shannon Exley is found underneath an eighteen wheeler in Boyle Heights.

She's posed, she's naked.

She's been strangled with her own bra that's been tied with a complex slip knot.

Boyle Heights is closed to us.

Uh huh, very close.

Oh my god.

Then so the police when they find they see this, there's no clues, there's nothing.

So, uh, they look into any other unsolved murders with the same mo and they find two others.

Uh.

Both Irene Rodriguez who was found in Boyle Heights as well and a woman named Peggy Booth who is found in Malibu, Caanan, had both been strangled to death with their own clothing left out in the open.

They were all sex workers.

They had all three been assaulted with tree branches.

So immediately, yeah, immediately, the LA detectives know that they've got a serial killer.

That's three murders in fifteen days.

So they're like, we have a fucking cereal in the emergency.

But then nothing else happens in the case goes cold.

Now let's go back to Vienna.

Uh, there's two more sex workers' bodies that have been found, Karen Arra Glue and Sabine Motesi.

They were both also found in the forest, both strangled with their own clothing that was tied in slip knots.

So these every time it happens, it hits the paper and people freaking out.

The pressure and the panic is building because this is just something that does not happen there.

Uh So, finally, a retired detective named August Schenner from Salzburg is reading about these murders and he contacts the Austrian police, the Viennese police, I should say, and uh he tells them that Jack Unterweger, the crime reporter and the famous, the famous crime reporter, and he's a well known guy around Austria that he he reminds the police that Unterweger was is famous because he was conveyd of murder in nineteen seventy four.

He August Schenner tells police, it's the same momo as the nineteen seventy four murder of these women that are being killed now.

Except for the seventy four murder.

He knew the woman personally, she was not a sex worker.

But is he had of prison.

But it's the same.

Well, I'm going to tell you it's the same mo same not same everything.

And Schenner says, I know you don't have any you're saying you don't have any suspects right now, you should at least take a look at his movements and see where he was all these different times in these different locations where these women's bodies were found totally, so the police start to look into Underwagger and and that trial.

So basically he as I said, he was tried and convicted in nineteen seventy fourth for the murder of this Let's see, her name was Margaret Schaeffer.

He was he went to his the girl he was dating at the time.

He went to her hometown to so she could visit her family in Germany, and they see as they drive into town, they see her school friend, Margaret Schaeffer, walking along the street.

So at that moment, Jack Unterweger decides that they're going to rob her and her parents.

So he ends up taking her out to the forest, murdering, attacking her, raping her, murdering her, strangling her with her un clothes, and he and uh, his girlfriend spills the beans on the whole murder, and he ends up going to jail.

So while he's in jail, he goes into jail and he can't read or write.

He's had a horrible childhood his mother.

He alleges his mother was a prostitute or a sex worker.

Sorry, the word prostitute is used a lot in this case, so uh but uh.

He says that she was a prostitute.

She gave him up to his alcoholic, horrible grandfather when he was little and she took off.

He never knew his father.

They think his father was an American soldier, and he has to live as a child, live with this alcoholic grandfather in a cabin in the woods, a one room cabin where he is constantly bringing girlfriends and sex workers back to the cabin to have sex while he's in the room.

That's his childhood when he gets older.

So then finally the state takes him out of that situation.

He goes from foster Home to Foster home, then he goes to juvie for a little while.

He finally gets out, and between nineteen sixty six and nineteen seventy nine, he's convicted sixteen times of sexual assaults and he spends most of that period of time, it was like nine years in jail.

So when he finally gets out of jail, that's when he finds the girlfriend, starts traveling all over and that's when he ends up killing Margaret Schaeffer.

So he goes to jail illiterate, but he while there teaches himself.

He's he's convicted and given a life sentence, and in that sorry in that trial, he's declared insane by a psychologist who describes him as being sexually a sexually sadistic psychopath with narcissistic and histrionic tendencies, prone to fits of rage and anger.

And that psychologist said he's an incorrigible perpetrator.

So he goes to jail.

And when he's in jail, I've said this now three times, he can't read or write.

So he teaches himself to read and write in jail, and he starts writing plays, he starts writing poems, and he starts writing children's stories.

And at the same time, there was this movement in Austria for prison form and one of the like the approach of their prison reform was called resocialization.

So it's the idea that if somebody is in jail, they understand what they've done, that they've done wrong, that they should have a chance to make good on that, and and.

So that's what jail is.

Prison is for right, So don't get to do that.

So they're basically it's this kind of it's very the intell you know, the intellectuals of the country were kind of like, this is what needs to happen.

We need to give people a chance, and and through the arts and through self expression they can basically reform themselves.

And so but Jack, they don't.

But that doesn't matter because they still committed this crime.

Stress.

Sorry, go on, no, no, no, you're you're exactly right off.

But it's that old I think it's back before they understood serial killers.

They understood these these personalities and and what that actually means, how somebody can be actually totally unrepentant and have no conscience, so they don't of course they're not sitting there going I shouldn't have done that.

I promise I'm not going to do it again, Like that's not happened.

I think that mindset that that people had back then, where it's like anyone could commit these crimes not thinking that.

No, it's this you know, those people who were saying that don't understand the urge to kill or to sexually assault someone because you know, they don't have that.

So they're they're grouping all criminals together, yeah, or they're griving all humans together and mental you know, capacities and fucking see psychopaths.

So there's Uh, there's a lot of people who theorize that when he knew that this was the reform, because the reform started before he went to jail, before any of that happen, so he knew that was something they were looking towards.

So he gets into jail and is basically like, this is the this is the prisoner I'm going to be, and so instead of being here for a life sentence, I'm going to get myself out by playing straight into the need for this program and people's need for this program to be real and to work.

So while he's in jail, he writes an autobiography called Purgatory.

I can't say the German version of that word because it's also crazy, And that autobiography becomes a hit, and a director even makes a movie of it.

It's basically his life story, and there's this ground swell of support for him and his art and his expression and the proof that he can be resocialized and that this can work.

In nineteen eighty five, they start up the certain group of people start up a demand for his early release.

So it's all actually, one could say, if that was the plan, it's going perfectly for him, and he basically, in May of nineteen ninety, he gets released from prison after serving fifteen years of a life sentence.

Uh huh.

Immediately he gets released in prison and he becomes a fixture on television talk shows.

He poses as the model of prison prison rehabilitation.

He gets invited to high society cocktail parties.

His autobiography is taught in schools.

His stories for children are performed on the radio.

What in the fuck?

Uh huh.

The woman who got killed by him is like, hey, I would be still alive if this guy.

Yes, exactly, So he he actually was there.

There's clips of him on I think it was called Cafe two now I can't remember what the name of the show is.

But it's literally a circle of men in like turtlenecks and it's like, you know, sit jacket and turtleneck, the very clearly like the intelligencia, and they're just talking about prison reform.

And he's there in an all white silk suit.

He looks like Steve Martin doing a character in a movie.

And he's there to give his first hand account of the reality of prison reform to school them.

Yeah, to tell them how it really is.

And this made this is what everybody wanted, and he was doing it, and it was all like, this is how society should truly be.

Diabolical man.

He also he made a lot of money because of all of these successes.

He wore designer clothes, the white silk suit, which I enjoyed.

He's wearing it in a lot of clips.

He also drove a Ford Mustang with the license plate jack one, which I don't know why.

I think that's so hilarious is the number one.

I think it's like he fucking won.

Well, you're exactly right, because he did.

He gets He gets an eighteen year old girlfriend.

So in September of the same year, he's released in May.

In September of that year, some people walking along the Vitava River near Prague find the body of Blanca Bakhova.

She's not a sex worker, she was just nearby meeting friends for a drink.

And this is four months after he has been released from prison and is living this life.

So on the advice of the man from Salzburg, sorry turn the page.

On the advice of our August Schenner, right, the police get a search warrant and an arrest warrant.

They start looking at jack hunger.

Now I've lost every jack hunger watchers movements.

And they see that he coincidentally has been in all of the towns where these women have been murdered when they disappear.

So they're starting to track it and they're like, oh, this guy is exactly right, Like this is serious.

So they get a warrant to search his home and his an arrest warrant, but when they get to his house, he's not there.

So they start looking through his house.

They find evidence that he had gone to Prague at the same time as Bokhova's death to do research on an article about prostitution, and he was placed at a cafe five hundred meters away from where she was last seen the night she disappeared.

They also find a red scarf and they bag that shit up.

So one detective that's looking around his house sees that he has keepsakes from a recent trip to La and so they're like, what was he doing in La?

So they call the LAPD and they ask if they have any unsolved strangling sex worker homicides and LAPD's like, we got fucking three.

Fuck so but here's this sorry ninety ish, what's that?

What ears this ninety one.

Okay, So it turns out that Jack had been hired by an Austrian magazine to write an article on prostitution in America.

So he went to la and he called up the LAPD.

They found in his apartment, They found a visitors pass for the LAPD headquarters, and they found he had gone on a ride along with some officers downtown and on that ride along, he asked them where the sex worker, where the prostitutes work and are and they drove him by the spot where they all stood around, so they basically pointed out his targets.

Oh my god.

And that article was published in an Austrian magazine in December of nineteen ninety one.

So he actually really was a calumnist, but he was reporting on the murders he was doing.

Can we please get an original copy of.

That article of you want it in German?

Oh?

No, I guess not.

Yes, I thought that's what he meant, like, can we just see it?

Yeah, it was you know what, Yes, I'm gonna go.

Okay, yes, we'll go all the way there.

I'm going there.

He also stayed at the Cecil Hotel.

That's where he was staying the whole time.

I just gear the shit out of me because I oh, my god, The Cecil, Yeah, a good friend, The Cecil.

The Cecil Hotel where everything bad happens, where islam Elisa Lamb was found dead in the water tank, but also Richard Ramirez stayed there while he was doing a little kill in Los Angeles.

It's so hilariously terrible, but it is right down there in the worst of, yes, the worst things that are happening in Los Angeles.

The Cecil Hotel is like centrally located.

I love trying to rebrand themselves by calling themselves like stay on Maine, Stay on Maine.

Yeah, no, honey.

But the funniest thing is that sign is still up that says Hotel Cecil.

It reads Hotel Cecil down like that, and the like vintage painting on the side that says Cecil Hotel or whatever.

They can't I think they can't change.

I mean that's my guess because there.

We just drove by there the other night and we looked at it and that's all still up.

Yes or no.

We do a special episode from a room in the Cecil Hotel.

Lisa Lamb, Stayton or Richard Emer Staateen or the Sky State.

Yes, Stephen, can you write that.

Down Stephen ideas and then we write in the dark German articles, listen for Austrian magazines, send them a we just do Google Translate and send him over.

Yeah, but I want it in my hand like paper.

Okay, good right, we know what you want to Let's move on.

Well, so okay, so he so they put all of it together, and they put all of it.

It's circumstantial evidence, but they're putting all of it together.

And there's that there's that guy that you see in every special that was in the I I watched.

Oh shit, I've done it again.

I didn't quote this at the top, but I got all of this from the Biography Channel.

But this is different.

It's all.

It's all.

They've got information from a place, and then you put it.

In several places your story me too.

I mean, you're gonna fucking make it up.

You know, this is all from the internet.

The Biography Channel.

Uh is the first special I watched on this and it's that thing in it reminded me when it when the title comes up, it starts Biography Channel.

So you're just watching and then it's Jack Unterweger, and I remembered normally watching like when and the biography channel specials would come up.

I'd be like sitting there and then it would be like Riba Macintel or maybe like that, I don't want to watch this.

But then it's like if one of those came up in real time, naturally, it was the most exciting thing in the world.

Yes, when it was before specialized true crime television was really as popular as it is now.

And before DVR, so you kind of didn't know what was going to be on.

Yes, just kind of like catch it, catch you had to be there listen.

So he he goes on to Whego, goes on the Lamb with his eighteen year old girlfriend.

They end up in Miami.

No, I'm kidding Miami.

Uh to do a show there now?

And he also he starts calling into the radio station that he used to work for, explaining to them that he's innocent.

He's being framed by the cops.

You know, he's just the most you know, he looks bad because of that old murder, but blah blah blah.

He's like calling in and trying to make a case for himself.

And there actually are people that are on his side because there's because they've bought into the celebrity of him so hard that like they can't turn around now.

Sure they can't admit that, loopsie.

Yeah, and because then you're also kind of responsible for those women getting murdered in a like weird roundabout way.

Well, yeah, there's definitely guilt.

Yeah, there's definitely guilt.

You are, but you would think you are, you would, yeah, you'd have you'd feel fucking terrible for that.

Yes.

So this guy from the FBI helps Vienna develop what they call a crime signature, and his crime signature is murdering strangulation with ligature made of clothing tied with complex slip knots, and so they, uh, they go to trial.

Oh when he gets arrested, he gets put in jail, he slits his wrists, and there's even more support for him and more empathy for him.

So he finally goes to trial ding dongs, and uh it's two months later after his arrest and his defense says, why would I kill women?

I have a very healthy sex life.

I've slept with over one hundred and fifty women, which is exactly the number that Alex Jones said when he was talking about how many women he slept with really, which I think is kind of funny.

One hundred and fifty is like just ridiculous.

Enough, Yeah, and as if it has any one has anything to do with you.

Totally.

I love women.

Why would I kill women?

Right?

We know I don't need to have sex, yes, right, I don't need to sexually assault one women they give it to me.

He's like, oh, yeah, that's all it is about, is yeah, sexual gratification?

Right?

No, no, you fucking lunatic.

So up until they say up until kind of like this turning point, he did have those supporters weren't relenting until the guy from the FBI came and pointed out the crime signature.

And they had all these pieces of clothing from all the murders, and he just held them up one after the other and was like complex slipknot complex slipnot on every single one.

And that's when the room turned and it all went different for him.

He was convicted of nine of eleven murders of sex workers in La La Prague, and Vienna, and in June of nineteen ninety four, he was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole.

And that night he committed suicide in jail.

And the interesting thing is that he hung himself with shoelaces and the band, the rope band from his sweatpants and he used a complex slipknot to tie tuck.

Uh huh oh.

I was holding my breath for that one.

Yeah, oh my god.

Yes.

They also matched the red fibers on highdi right, matched the scarf that they got out of his apartment.

Like everything was was adding up, but it's all circumstantial, circumstantial, circumstantial.

So when they's that's why LA didn't try to prosecute it is because there was nothing.

They were like, you've got ms or eight murders over there.

We're not going to be able to get him because everything over here is circumstantial and not there's nothing solid.

It's all just like basically, these three horrible murders that match exactly while he was there and visiting as I am.

Yeah, fuck man, how have I never fucking heard of him?

It's such a fascinating case.

There's way more to read, but like the idea that while he was murdering sex workers and then writing columns about the murderer and the murders and asking people how they felt, and.

He was asking everything about like acknowledging and writing about the murder.

Yes, yeah, he was basically and foe investigating his own crime.

It's amazing and oh that was the thing.

That's stupid.

I was trying to find this.

But one of the experts talking about him said, the thing about the psychopaths, the kind of psychopath that he is, is you stop focusing on what they do, and they make you focus on them.

And that's how that like it's cult of personality.

So when he was in jail, the fact that he had strangled a young woman faded away and it all became about me and my life and how hard it's been for me.

And read my autobiography and this is so sad.

He never said like I made a mistake and killed the no, no, no thing.

It was like, don't even point that out.

No, it was all about him and then and he was he was smart enough and manipulate enough, manipulative enough to play the part of the person they were looking for, you know, to really kind of like be the face of and spearhead this resocialization plan.

He was just like, I'm going to be that guy.

Do you think that when you know, when when people get convicted of murder and then they get to read a letter to the judge or to the family and they just talk about themselves.

That's the same kind of thing instead of like apologizing to the family, yeah, or saying I made a mistake or whatever.

Yes, and that's like I had a hard childhood I was.

That's the same thing.

Wy, I've always pissed me off whenever I hear those.

No, Yeah, that's the because it's the narcissist it's is it some you know, a bunch of those traits go across the board and like if you're this, you're this, you're this.

But it's like narcissism for sure.

But then also the psychopaths, where it's just like it's their world and everyone is just an ant in that world and they get to do what they want and everything is too power, everything is too you know what I mean, Like it's to feed their ego.

And things are done to them and like they have unfair things are unfair to them.

Yeah, and if they're like I don't even want to talk.

Like when he was finally arrested, they tried to get him to talk about the nineteen seventy four murder, and he was like, I have no memory.

I don't know what you're talking about, and just like it says if in his mind, since he doesn't acknowledge it, it didn't happen.

Wow.

I always wish there's a way to get them to like fucking feel bad about it, you know.

Yeah, But that's the h there's no such things.

They don't have a conscience that they need they can be reabilitated, which they can't.

It's you thinking, they're like you, yes, it's that.

And actually that's part of the fascination of all of this shit is there's these people that are built totally differently.

Or because of their circumstances of how they were raised, which is like alcoholics, grandfather who did these things.

It's like, there's no way your brain can then go to where you and I are and Steven and hopefully and.

But also I think you have to have that because lots of people get beaten up by horrible grandfathers and all that stuff you have.

Then it's that extra piece sure being a sociopath or being a psychopath where it turns because this guy was just like on fire with the lord since fucking day one where he's like sixteen assaults out of you know, when he's like in his teens and early twenties, he had huge problems from jump and ever stopped doing it.

Yeah, and then just tricked everybody in this insane way because you know, he was getting off on the idea of like, I'm gonna go interview the head of this investigation and ask them if they have any idea who's doing this and the answer is no, and he gets together.

They were like, none of them were like, that's weird that he's putting himself, you know, because that's one of the things is that they put the murderers put themselves in the middle of the investigation or just a little too interested in it.

Yeah, I guess they didn't know that then.

They didn't know it.

It's so funny too, because it's not that long ago.

It's the nice but it's still police procedurally, it's long ago.

Well, that just explains to me a thing that I haven't really ever understood, which is why Anne Rule never suspected or even took a while after Ted Bundy was arrested to be like, yeah, it was him, So she was under that same fucking spell.

Yes, Okay, it's like they never understood.

It was like, how did you fucking not know?

Because you know, haven't you ever met a person like that?

Like I've definitely I met one person in particular where the charisma is such they make you think that they think you're the only person in the world, and that most people never get that unless you're like exceedingly beautiful or special in some way.

It's this actual specific relationship you're having that's because of the two of you, right, But there makes me feel that way, and I don't want to make.

It well, but that's because that's that's it's you make him feel that way too, right, But when you meet those people like when it it In my opinion, I think a lot of love at first sight is like the first time you made a sociopath because they know how do they know how to manipulate you?

And they have their reasons for it, even if it doesn't make sense to you or in your mind it's like why would you do that?

Yeah, we had this magical thing, and.

It's like trying to get what are you getting out of this?

Nothing?

Well, having young women be in love with you everywhere you go you know, as part of it.

Yeah, because we don't need that, so we don't understand why other people would need that too.

Write or if you need it, you can then go yeah, but that would be mean to do to a person who I didn't love back, like you can bring an actual, you know, conscience into it.

I saw a relationship like that of two people I know, and it was like everyone was like, how the fuck do you not see this person doesn't think like you?

Yeah, And it's like so surprising to see that from a smart person not understanding these like really obvious to everyone else.

Don't you think smart people are almost more susceptible because it's like I never think I'm going to fall for anything.

Yeah, And they're almost more like they can intellectualize away these things because they're not just ding dongs going along with it.

They're like, well, I'm really smart, so I would clearly know this well.

And also I think that brain based people ignore their gut more.

Oh yeah.

So it's like I've met plenty of people who aren't, say BookSmart, which I also didn't mean to just say I'm so smart because I'm true.

I've proven here time and again that I'm not listen.

If this is your first episode, you know that we don't even have to say that.

Please know this.

But there are people who don't get bogged down in thinking and just go, oh, give goodbye.

This feels awful for whatever reason, Whereas if you're a big thinker and a big analyzer, then it's like, you know, this never happens, and this is I'm I'm magically being chosen by this amazing, magical person who is so charismatic and so you know what I mean, like does a thing that you're like, what, this doesn't happen?

This is uncommon.

Well, I want to say it's also because of self esteem, but or no, no, I was going to say, it's also because you and I have been through a lot of experiences where that has happened to us, and we have, you know, since we were very young and went through some shit.

But it's also so we're like skeptical and thinking that way.

But also when that happened to me when I was younger, I had really low self esteem.

Yes, so you know, it's not just that I didn't know, it's that that they were like that or what people were like.

It's that I when someone treats you that.

It's almost like they find that people with low self esteem, and yeah, they can see you at a bar that you are that person.

In the moment they say a word to you, they can tell if you are or not.

That's right, That's exactly right, because you know, it's funny the person I'm thinking of that I had this experience with where I was like the things I was thinking that it was, and the reality of what it was.

I learned terribly about a year later when I watched him do the exact same thing to my friend who does not have low self esteem.

When I introduced them, I was standing there and I watched the look.

It was like watching a look come over.

So it's like watching a predator like see you know, like.

Like like a thing changed colors to fit the environment.

And when I saw the look on his face and my heart just dropped of like, oh no, that's it wasn't love at first sight.

That's the thing he does to everybody.

My friend was just like, hey, what's like, nice to meet you and moved on, didn't give a shit, and I was just like, oh man, this is all so awful.

Yeah, yeah, but I don't think it can happen to us again, or if it does, we'll be more aware of it.

And you know, listen, they're our fucking friends.

It'll never happen again because I'm an emotional lighthouse on the very tip of Maine, and I'll be there forever.

Goodbye.

Well, at least you're gonna have lighthouse cats.

That's fun.

It's really the only like positive I can think of that.

At least you always get free clamm chowder at a lighthouse.

Oh my god, with the oyster crackers on top of him.

The big sweater and I'll play the cello.

Oh my gosh, this is gonna be great for me.

Me me go live with Karen in her lighthouse.

I should get Mimi.

I'm her number one fan, all right.

Anyway, that's that's the story.

That's how it is, and we're sticking to on it.

Tease and ie, okay, we're back, Karen.

Any updates, No updates.

This is an old case.

It's been around for a long time.

It was fee on The Peacock Show, The World's Most Notorious Killers, and they called Underwagger the first Transatlantic serial killer.

Wow, but you know that feels to me like they're just trying to milk it.

Yeah, you know headline yeah stuff.

All right, well, speaking of headlines, let's get back to twenty seventeen and listen to our good things of the week.

Hey, what happened this week that you're happy or like?

Any you know?

What do you like?

Oh?

You know what, I'll tell you I like and it is it is another present.

But because we do get tons of presents, we do.

Thank you for all your presents.

We love them, we do.

We talk about them a lot.

And did you see the thing that someone gave us.

It's this thing.

Ye.

We really fucking lose our minds, we really do it.

So we did get a present last week and it was from another person that I know from Twitter, Andrew, and he tried to send this thing twice.

I'm sorry, I don't pick up my po box.

And I think they fucking hate me there.

Too, because you get so much stuff.

Now, yes, they fucking hate me.

Lots of presents.

Well he sent us he's a woodworker, and we got oh yeah, these gorgeous pens in hand carved pen holders, pen pass boxes, yeah, whatever they were.

And then he carved Stephen a mustache for his I mean a comb for his mustache.

Giant wooden comb for his mustache.

Steven, have you been using it?

I mean every day my mustache.

I feel like it sounds look good.

It's like it looks good.

I got to, you know, keep it, keep it tight.

Yeah, that's right.

It's part of your persona now high and tight.

So Andrew, it's Andrew Hess that I know from Twitter, and he's a great woodworker, And thank you so much for sending those and we finally got them and we were blown away, blown away by that.

It was so thoughtful.

Yeah.

I was always trying to think of things that make me happier, things that I loved, and so I just put up this hummingbird feeder right outside, and like, I love hummingbirds.

And there's been like fucking it's been like a swarm of hummingbirds.

And every time I see when I yell, even if I'm alone, have abord, Like I just can't not yell heavybird, even though they're like it's like every ten minutes.

But the thing I love is that it made me realize that they're fucking assholes to each other.

Hummingbirds aren't.

Yeah, they're really aggressive and territorial and they keep fighting against it, and it made me so happy because it's like everyone's like humming birds are so beautiful and they get tattoos of them and they love them, and it's like, well, they can be fucking dicks too, and it's just just like a positive light to me of like, don't don't compare yourself, don't don't put yourself up to standards of hummingbirds, no, because they're actually assholes.

Yeah and there, and they're sugar freaks.

They're they're addicted to sugar and they just got to get theirs just like everybody else.

They are mean to each other.

It's very funny.

It's funny because I face the sliding glass door where the hummingbird feeders are, and so the whole time is, especially today, I can see them and there's a lot.

It's like three at a time every four minutes, so it's really hard to concentrate.

Like every I keep wanting to go, but then it's.

Like sad and it's so yeah, it's so distracting, but it's this peaceful thing of staring at a hommybird is so nice.

But then they fucking dive bomb each other and chirp like yell at each other and then you hear their wings are this is like, it's just really fun.

They're cool.

Yeah, they're super cool.

There's actually a video my friend sent me once.

Uh, there's a guy who put a GoPro on his face and then put a hummingbird feeder like near under the go pro, so that it was basically hummingbirds flying up to his face drinking their stuff, but so he could get these first person view like slop of hummingbirds.

Dude, the best video.

People are the best hommybirds are fucking dicks, So don't worry about your life.

Right, people are the best, yeap, especially when they have a go pro strapped list.

What we're trying to teach you.

Might be unclear now, but it's going to become clear very soon.

Within the next ten years.

It'll be so obvious.

And you'll be like, oh my god, they were right, And now they live on a tiny island in Maine.

We can't tell them Clamchowder Town.

I'm the mayor of clam Chowder Town.

Mimi is the mascot, and you guys are the listeners, and you're the ocean.

Thank you guys for being our ocean.

Our waves are everything.

Yeah, our see, you guys go deeper than we ever believe possible.

Thank you for being the monster underneath the rock deep down in the sea that's going to save us from the end of the world.

That changes colors to match the environment.

You guys are always evolving with us.

That's right.

You're the cuddlefish of this podcast, and we appreciate we want.

To cuddle with you.

Okay, we are back, I mean us saying that it might be unclear what we're teaching people, but it'll be clear in ten years.

We've got about a year to figure figure it out.

Shit, yeah, shit, I know.

And I want to stand by the fact that honeybirds are assholes tucking.

All these years later, I'm still trying to get them to come to my hummingbird feeder.

I get the goods sugar and the good water.

I use fucking what's it called water?

Ogave whatever gave hippy water.

I use good water and good sugar to try to get those little fuckers.

And then my friend and they say no, thank you.

They say yes, and then they fight each other over it.

Oh yeah, it's just kind of cute, a lot of a lot of energy.

Yeah, all right, So this episode was originally titled The Devil's Number, but.

It's not so if we were naming it today, maybe we would call.

It its own face, which is when we were talking about we went off on a cookie tangent what a Florentine cookie looks like.

And then we could also call it nothing I can't change.

Don't show me nothing I can't change.

Oh my god, jay Loo, I love you.

Then there's also, of course, this is the episode where I talked about being an emotional lighthouse.

That's the one.

Yeah.

I think everyone loved that so much.

And I think people relatesolutely yeah to this day, to this very moment.

So thanks you guys for listening to another episode of rewind.

And we're gonna go back to twenty seventeen and let Elvis say goodbye.

He's kind of unprofessional this time, but not a surprise.

We're gonna let him do it anyways.

He's a diva.

We love him for it.

Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Bye bye, bye, Elvis, get your ass out here.

He's keeping Vin's company.

And then Elvis, Elvis, Elvis, do you want to cook key?

Wait?

Elvis, you want to cook key?

Yeah?

Gobbles yes, bye bye,