Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows with all new commentary, updates, and insights.

Today we're recapping episode sixty two, which we named Trust Issues and Ice Skate Shoes.

This episode came out on March thirtieth, twenty seventeen.

All right, let's listen.

I feel like I'm going to be the one that doesn't know the name of ice skating shoes, and so says ice skate Shoes.

Use you, you'd think, but you'll be surprised.

Okay, all right, let's listen to the intro of episode sixty two.

Welcome to my favorite Murder episode.

What is it?

Sixty seven?

Is it?

I think?

So?

Wow?

It's up there.

We're pushing seventy baby.

Holy crap, I know that's kind of weird.

Yeah, we're still kind of a baby, but we're not.

We're like one of those old babies that's at New Year's that you're like, should that baby still be breastfeeding?

You're like, that baby shouldn't be up this late, and it shouldn't be wearing a suit.

No, No, isn't nowhere to see older babies with diapers?

And I don't know how old babies are supposed to be my still wearing diapers and you're like, is that not right?

You mean the ones that are also wearing polo shirts, like didn't stand around with long hair drinking bottles like they run the place like adults.

Yeah, oh yeah, Hey, I met a girl today who met Ted Bundy's brother.

Really yeah.

She said that she grew up like in the town, but she was a lot younger.

And she said that she was at a bar one time back home and her friend introduced her to this guy and she was like, the whole time was like something, there's something about his face looks familiar.

And then she said, but he also had this like in his eyes, this incredible look of sadness.

And when he left, her friend was like, that's Ted Bundy's little brother.

Oh wow, I know that's crazy.

Now can you imagine?

Did he have a little brother?

Well maybe she was lying.

I don't know.

I mean now, I really I'm the last person who would know for sure.

And I did Ted Bundy on this show, why would you know?

But I mean it doesn't stick with me.

But I know he had an older sister that also was his mom.

Right.

I wonder if his little brother, if he had one, was his mom's sister, if it was same six right sister, if it was if they figured that stuff out in the Bundy family after Ted left right, or yeah, if it was yeah, yeah still rabbit hole.

Uh.

I bet his last name wasn't Bundy?

I think it was really Yeah, So.

It was like, this is Mike Bundy, Peter Mike Bundy, Peter Mike or Greg Bundy, the Bundy bunch.

It's a Mondy bunch.

Come on, let me say it when we're so wait.

You didn't when you said those three names, you didn't realize you were doing a Brady bunch of reference until until that moment.

There's two I didn't, but Greg I did.

Then you caught up to yourself.

And that's the moment of comedy.

Is that it?

That's the fun moment where you go the comedy's writing itself.

Oh that's what that's phrase means, It writes itself.

Oh, it doesn't really so much to learn.

It reminds me of your awesome blossom moment on stage.

Working.

You'll all know what we're talking about later on if we decide to post it.

Oh yeah, it's just always a secret.

Yeah, this is my favorite murder.

Bye the bye if anyone is.

Unsure, Yeah my murder.

That's Karen.

I'm Georgia.

We just got back from three shows in Portland that all are fucking awesome.

Such a fun weekend, and thank you for the donuts, thank you for the laughter and the screaming.

Thank you for lots of good stories and things to walk away from.

Revolutional was such a fun place to perform.

In case we don't post it, can you tell the story of the Army Crawl?

Yes, so let's see.

That was the second night.

I think so.

No, no, it was the first night, second show.

Okay, yes, first night, second show, so second.

Yeah.

We were at the end and I had picked a girl to do her hometown murder.

We called someone up from the audience and she was telling.

This story about how her cousin found a dead body, and it was immediately my favorite story we've had so far because it was all the things that I enjoy, which is her cousin happening upon a dead body in a creek.

Come to find out that's the dead.

Body of a rapist and kidnapper, perhaps murderer who was on the lamp.

So we were happy about him being dead, so that didn't feel gross.

Yeah, no guilt about the body, about the finding of the body, or the discussion of the finding of the body.

And as this girl is telling the story, she tells the whole story of the crime he did right before he went on the lamb and then somehow died in the creek.

They don't know, and she I asked a specific question about did your cousin tell you anything about what it felt like to find the body or touch the body or whatever, and she said she didn't know, and then they went Georgia said something.

They went on to talking.

I look over Georgia's shoulder and there is a girl Elmer Fud style, sneaking down the aisle.

Not the aisle on stage, no.

I watched her come up the aisle sneaking like a cartoon, with her shoulders up and her knees raised high, sneaking, and then she does an army roll onto the stage, and that's when I interrupt the two of.

Them, and then it's across.

Before this happened, I saw Karen's face over my shoulder and it was like I got chills just looking at your face because you looked like horrified.

Yeah, And I slowly turned around the smush and there's a girl walking towards us on stage.

And I say, that's not cool.

You have to get off the stage right now.

Straight up to her.

I was just like, because I'm thinking just drunk.

You know.

The beers a Revolutional Hall were three dollars.

People were definitely partying.

It was the second show.

It was a bit ready.

Yeah.

But she finally explains that she is the girl telling the story.

Sister.

I want to see that girl's name was Nicole, but I don't remember.

There's no way.

Finally we realized she's okay to be there, and the only reason she came up on stage was because she knew the answer to the question I was asking.

And sister fashion she needed to correct her sister.

Yes, and her sister was doing something wrong, correct an ad and then gave us great additional information.

And then it turned out to be the greatest hometown two parter double sister storytelling.

Yeah.

But then the next night too, another sister came up.

That was weird.

Yes, that was super weird.

It was just like fine, it was sister backing up sisters weekend all weekend in Portland.

That was great.

It was so much fun.

Everybody was so great.

Yeah, it really added Yeah, thank you Portland.

We're allowed to tease that we're going across the seas.

Yes, hello London, and is it Ireland?

Ireland and they're going to ban you now that you said it like that.

Uh no, that was actually really good because you live there, right, No, that was Scotland.

Whatever, No, that's where we're going, right, it's London.

A couple we have a couple shows in England.

This is the teas.

It's very teasy.

We don't know what we're talking now.

A couple of shows in England, a show in Ireland.

And a couple shows in Australia.

Yes, and New Zealand.

I mean we get to go to New Zealand.

But yeah, we're kind of just like, we don't know if we have any listeners there, but we just really want to go to New Zealand.

We want to see what it looks like.

Yeah, that's gonna be fun.

So try to If you're in New Zealand and you like this podcast, will you get a couple of your friends to like it so that we have at least fifty people at our show.

That's the dream.

The dream is fifty.

And if you need to bring farm animals or children, that's fine.

We just need to.

Fill up whatever your local church hall is, please.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, So we're going across internacion o.

We're like Pitbull.

We're becoming international like summertime, well you know, yeah yeah, summer or fall or summer in the anyway, you'll hear more about it and it'll be this vague when you hear about it again.

Yeah, so don't expect to get tickets.

Okay, we are back from the intro.

I mean, we had to discuss what was an incredibly legendary experience that I literally can still see it in my head of standing because that theater was very small comparative, so the stage was down close to the ground, so literally I see the girl basically kind of sneaking up to get on stage and in that same moment realize anyone could do that.

So watching her do it, I was like, now other people are going to start doing it, and people are going to fucking get up on a stage with us.

It was scary.

I mean it was a legit scary.

The other thing about was twenty seventeen, so no one knew about how to act at a live podcast show, like it was a thing that the MPR podcast did, meaning everyone in the audience was well behaved and fucking knew how to act and only had had two glasses of Shibley instead of fucking six Long Island iced teas as we like to do at our shows.

So yeah, that was more of the bad hip crowd, and we were more of the people being like, let me get up there with you, because I'm with you every time I listened to your podcast.

That's my sister.

You guys are my sisters.

I'm coming up and we like that energy, like the energy.

We just need to know what's that you can't sneak out of the dark out, So the sneaking made it very scary, which is very funny.

That's like joecros step.

But for it, I loved her and this.

Story was it was so worth it.

The whole thing was hilarious.

Yeah, so it did pay off.

But it is funny because then talking about we should have a live show etiquette guide, Yes, like what would you put in the live show etiquette guide?

Now, well, you do the whole story at the beginning of that, don't do this, don't do that.

But yeah, you know what it would be, put your phone down, That's what it would be, take your pictures in the beginning, whatever, video whatever.

But there's sometimes people who just have their phone up videoing the entire show, and if it's distracting to me, it's distracting to the person behind them, and like, no one wants to watch your video of what they're watching.

That's a really good Yeah, that's a really good one.

It also makes me laugh when people do that at concerts, where it's like, so you're gonna go home and you're gonna basically watch video of a little white speck and mostly in a mostly black field, and then other people going who and then the guy next to you being like.

Hey, so how many brothers and sisters you have?

Like I get like a ten second video, you know, but it's like, yeah, like and you want to send it to your best friend Vicki, who couldn't come tonight because she's in labor, but like Vicky doesn't need the whole concert.

At all now or want it, Like, you can't recreate the in person experience.

One hundred percent.

Yeah, So that would be my rule.

My thing is if you're going to rush the stage, you have to do it standing up the whole time so we know you're coming.

You can't get so close to the stage that it's almost like this weird.

And also the fucking roll onto the stadio, everything about that was so wild.

She'd had a fusion blease.

It also makes me think that during our tour, now that's coming up, I want to pick a pair of sisters for a hometown to come up.

Absolutely, they did a great job.

We've had other sisters before, mother daughter, whatever, Like we need like pairs, right, sure, like people helping each other.

Yes, because I do think that sometimes people are like, oh, I can absolutely do this because they've had a couple shiblize and then when they're up there, it's a whole different kind of experience.

Yes, so maybe like, yeah, two people who both know the story.

Can tell it together right exactly, then it's like tag team.

Yes, But also just I'd love to take a moment to pause if we're going to rewind, let's rewind to the I think one of the best hometown deliveries ever sincerely was that show in we were in Phoenix, Arizona.

The Theater in the round.

Yes, the theater that slowly spun around in like an arene.

It was like a It was like a cage match with everyone around us, and we slowly spun around and I got seasick.

It was crazy.

If you go find a live show, we only did one in Phoenix, so you'll be able to find it.

It's early.

That live show.

The woman who came up and I can't I'm sorry, I can't remember her name did a fully formed and amazingly Dela Hometown like she was a hired professional.

It was hilarious.

So you know, I guess that it's like, be really good.

That would be one of my roles.

Let's be really good.

If you're gonna get up here, be really really good at it.

All Right, now, let's get into George's story about the Moore's murders.

Do you go first to do it?

I think we should start over because do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?

Well?

I went first last time?

Did you mm hm?

Oh?

Yeah?

The live show?

I mean, don't we have to follow just how we're doing it as opposed to what airs?

I don't know.

I think that's what we should do.

It's for us and nobody cares.

Nobody cares, and I don't think we care that much.

I don't care.

Okay, great, No wait now you're mad.

No, I'm like, why do I care?

Like?

Why have I been well?

It used to matter?

Did it well?

When we were like back to back?

That's true?

All right?

It felt like So.

I just finished listening to this book called The Devil All the Time by Donald rape Pollock, which is a really fucking great book.

A bunch of different stories of other people and they're all, you know, intertwined somehow, which I love.

And this one had a husband wife murder team, which I know we've talked about and neither of us kind of are that interested in it or like, that's not our first pick, and it's it's so weird and creepy.

So I'm doing one.

Okay, you're going outside your comforting Yeah of cold cases and yeah, lesser known cases, that's your passion.

When this is the Moore's Murders.

Okay.

So nineteen sixty one, eighteen year old typist Myra Hinley meets Ian Brady.

Ian was born in Glasgow and a slum on January second, nineteen thirty eight to a single mother named Peggy, and when he's four months old, she fucking advertises him for adoption in a newsagent's shop window.

Oh man, there's a lot of words in here that I normally wouldn't use in their English, like newsagents, news agents and shop window.

And I'm sure it's advertisement, not advertised.

Peggy visits him at his foster family regularly until he becomes a teenager, without letting him know that that's his mom.

What you know, But I guess his foster family is good.

Yeah, so, but he still has extreme temper tantrums and they end with him banging his head on the floor.

And despite being exceptionally bright, he did poorly in school, socially awkward, considered a quote sissy at sports, and he's cruel to animals pretty quickly, and it ranged from quote stoning dogs, decapitating rabbits and I want to nope, I can't read that.

It's ababcat.

He later tells Myra, his later girlfriend, that he killed his first cat when he was ten years old.

That was a brag for him.

That's like first date chit chat for him.

Yeah, it gets worse, Okay.

At thirteen, Ian had his first was charged with house breaking, House breaking, Da da da.

As a teenager, he develops he taught a whole house how to go to the bath?

Oh no, stupid.

As a teenager, he develops a fascination with the writings of nietzschee and with Nazism red flag.

Yeah.

In nineteen fifty nine, he learns bookkeeping in prison, and he gets a job as a stock clerk, and he buys his own audio recording equipment and he transfers Hitler's speeches onto vinyl records.

Oh, like as a pastime.

Yeah, huh, yeah, sounds fun.

That's he sounds like a real a real hoot.

Yeah, go get her, okay.

In nineteen sixty one, a new secretary starts at his work named Myra Henley.

On their first date, Ian takes her to see a move about the Nurnberg Trials.

So that's their first day.

Jesus not a not Nietzsche And Nazism, Yeah, I mean yes, Nazism.

So guys like, would you like to go to the movies with me?

And you're like sure, that's cool.

And he's like kind of cute and has like fifties just like the back hair.

He's older.

Yeah, yeah, he's like the cool guy at the office.

He's got strong opinions, right, he's not like the boys at school who don't like Nazism.

Yeah, he's got his arm up in the air a lot, just like what you're looking for.

And then you meet at the.

Movie theater and it's the fucking Nurnberg Trials.

Yeah, super chill.

After they start dating, they read each other books about Nazi atrocities.

On their lunch break, he Hindley.

She starts to all to her appearance to replicate the Aryan ideal, bleaching her hair blonde and wearing red lipstick, and so Ian's really grooming her to become subservient.

And they start discussing committing crimes together, like robberies that would make them rich, but ultimately they decide that murder was more of their style.

Nice fun.

Ian outlines a plan where Myra would wear a disguise, they'd abduct a child and take it to the moors, where they would rape and murder and bury it there.

And in nineteen sixty three they took their first victim.

Sorry, so in that discussion, what a risk, That's all I'm saying, is you really?

I guess the Nuremberg Trials was really the test.

Yeah, of like, is she gonna go with this?

Yeah?

If you cry when a bunch of Nazis are being hung hanged?

Probably both?

Then you know that, right?

You know you found the one, You found the one.

Also, I have seen Mara Henley's mugshot.

Yeah, as a blonde with that lipstick on.

Yeah, how do you feel about it?

She was definitely a fall winter.

Let's just say it that way.

She was not a blonde.

No, it's not complimentary to her face.

I mean I have bleached blonde hair once and it didn't look good and I knew it immediately.

Yeah, And I wouldn't have done it for a guy.

What did you do?

I wouldn't have killed anyone.

Children and children, children and the more so.

Okay, In nineteen sixty three, in July, for the first victim, Ian tells Meyer to drive her van around the area local area while he follows behind in his motorcycle, and when he sees a victim that he wants, he wants, he's going to flash his headlights at her, signaling her to stop over and offer that person a ride.

So they see a young girl walking towards them, and Ian signals her to stop.

She doesn't do until they pass her, and Brady's like, what the fuck and She's like, I know that girl, I don't want to take her.

So instead, at eight pm, Ian spots sixteen year old Pauline Read on her way to a dance.

And Pauline is a neighbor of Lee's who's a friend of her younger sister Maureen.

So uh, she was okay with getting into the van with Hinley, who then asked if she would mind helping to search for an expensive glove she had lost on saddle More Saddleworth Moore, on a tract of open Oh wait on Saddleworth Moore.

And then I was like, you know what, I didn't know what a Moore was aside from photos nice, so I thought I'd explain to people what it was.

It's basically just an open, big, open, uncultivated field like picture where you know British people would go shooting and bury bodies.

Yes, it's like a rocky, hilly, open grass landy situation for miles and miles, miles and miles.

Yeah, so she wanted her to come find her glove with her, and Pauline says she's in no hurry and agrees when they get to the More.

Brady arrived shortly afterwards on her motorcycle, and Hinley introduces him to Rid as her boyfriend and that he'd also come to find the glove and uh and Henley claims that Brady took Reed into the More.

Well, Henley just hung out in the van.

After about thirty minutes, Brady comes back alone and takes her back to the spot where Reid lay dying.

Her throat had been cut with a large knife and the collar of her coat had been pushed into the wound, which sounds so horrific.

He tells Henley to stay with Red while he goes and gets a spade that he had hidden nearby on a previous visit to bury the body.

So Hinley notices that Pauline's coat is undone and her clothes were in disarray, guessing that she had been sexually assaulted.

I mean, she claimed she wasn't there witnessing it, but let's yeah, fucking come on now, right and but Henley later claims that she assisted him with the sexual assault.

As she turned on that story, he says it's incorrect.

Oh oh am, I getting there, managerong, sorry, that would be in character, got.

It I see now, So basically she says I wasn't there, and later on he's like, oh no, she was there and help me out.

Yeah, got it okay, Okay.

Then on then the early evening November twenty third, nineteen sixty three, she approaches Sorry Myra approaches a twelve year old boy named John Kilbride and a market in Lancashire and offers him a lift home on the pretext that his parents would be worried about him for being out so late, and offers him also a bottle of sherry and he is twelve years old, is like hell yeah.

But then they're like, well we have to go make a detour to collect it, and that also we need help finding a glove and a more.

So he's like okay.

And then when they get to the moor, Brady takes the child and again Hindley says she waits in the car while Brady sexually assaults Kilbride and attempts to slit his throat with a six inch strated blade before batally strangling him with a piece of string.

So this guy's just a fuck animal, animal, monster, psychopath.

Okay.

Then in the early evening of June sixteenth, nineteen sixty four, so this all happens within a couple of years.

Two years.

Then, in the early evening of June nineteen sixty four, twelve year old Keith Bennett is on his way to his grandma's house in Manchester when Hinley lures him into her mini pickup, which Brady was sitting in the back of, asking if he'd help load some boxes, and then she said she'd drive him home afterwards.

So she goes to the More again and again those boxes out on the moor.

Yeah, and you know I have to move from the More, Hey, little twelve year old kid, I need help carrying some heavy shit and ding ding the ultimate red flag.

If she don't ask, adults will not ask you for help, That's right, children.

Yes, Also, don't walk around your goddamn town by yourself all the time.

I mean, not that death ever ever happens anymore, No never.

Thirty minutes later, Brady comes back alone and when Hindley supposedly asked how he had killed Bennett, he says that he had sexually assaulted him and strangled him again with a piece of string, and they buried him out on the moor on December twenty sixth, nineteen sixty four, Brady and Henley visit a fair ground in search of another victim, and they noticed ten year old Leslie Ann Downey standing beside one of the rides.

When it becomes parent that she's alone, they approach her and deliberately drop something from their shopping car close by her and ask her for help carrying the packages to the car.

What is sweet angel?

She's ten, And she's like, yes, I'll help you.

She's at the carnival alone.

Yes, I'm at a carnival alone, and I'll help.

These two adults and they're like, this is why it's so creepy, is it's a man and a woman.

And in your mind you're never you know, like if you're hitchhiking and a couple stopped for you, a man and a woman, yeah you feel safe.

Yes, that's right.

It's the old trick of having a woman there.

It's so creepy.

It's the worst, and also with little kids, so unfair.

It's just like it goes against everything your instincts would tell you.

It's a huge trick.

Do you think that women it's more horrifying for women to kill children than for men like it's I feel like, is it?

I feel equally horrified at every story that I hear of people that think it's okay to kill children or it like that need the like a compulsion to kill children.

There's something so wrong with you.

I feel like what horrifies me more than the compulsion is the like is being okay with it.

It's not even like like she might not have had a compulsion to kill children, but she went along with it anyways.

Yeah, so that to me is even more depraved because it's not even this like addiction that you have.

She was doing it for her fucking boyfriend totally, which is the I mean, you've known people are like now I'm into swing dancing, and you're like, that's so lame, but you never say anything, right, this is like she'll get over it, just yeah, exactly, just like we'll wait for this one to wind out and you'll hate him in eight months or whatever.

But now this is like, it's very extreme.

I bought a Espa for a boy.

When I listen, I'm not gonna lie.

I mean I thought it looked cute and I liked it, but I got it so that he would think I was cool.

Yeah, yeah, and I hated it.

I uh, what you do?

Proudly, I can say that the first bad experience that I had with a guy that was like that was someone who was secretly born again Christian.

And then after we got together, like unveiled that.

Really he just wanted me to say the seven magic words that would enable me to go to heaven when I died.

What are those magic words?

I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior.

You just said, I'm oh, well, yeah, I'm in.

I was already in.

Yeah, you know with the Catholic upbringing, was.

There like red flat, like like was there looking back when you were dating?

Like obvious things?

Well, it was very short.

So we were friends first, everybody that I was we had like the small group of friends, and all the girls were in love with him.

And then it was like he picked me, Oh my god, and you're like, I'm so special exactly.

And then like a week later he was like, I just need you to say these words and then come to my church with me, and then I don't really want to date you, but I need.

You go to this church to get a gold star.

It was yeah, seriously, it's like, did you get some kind of kickback for bringing media.

Yeah, did you collect?

And that's when I was like, oh, this is this is like pathetically not anything I thought it was.

But if you were like this fucking idiot, you would have been a Christian exactly.

So.

But I feel like I learned early the worst kind of most painful way of like, oh, the ulterior motive thing, like the second comes out where it's even now, even if it's like, do you like Star Wars, I'm like, goodbye.

Fucking tricked me?

How dare you?

Oh my god, you try to keep better?

You got it?

Like it all has to come out immediately or else you don't trust them.

That's right, or I just don't trust them anyway.

Anyhow, We'll talk about how I'm alone later.

Listen.

I have all the trust issues in the world.

Don't even any who blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah carry some packages.

Then they needed to help carrying them into her house, into their house.

So once inside the house, this sweet little girl is undressed, This is fucked up, undressed, gagged and forced to pose for photos before being raped and killed.

And Brady again states that it was Henley who killed Leslianne Downey and I'm sorry.

Ian states that it's actually the Myra who killed Leslianne Downey, but of course she says it wasn't that she was running a bath for her and come back, came back and she was dead, which is like, fuck you.

You know, here's the thing, whatever the truth really is, it doesn't matter because at this point you could have been sitting at home waiting for him to come back from the moors.

You were complicit, which means you might as well have been standing next to him in my opinion.

Yeah, and it's I mean, yeah, I agree.

I now want to think the worst of you if you are involved in.

This at all.

Yeah, it's not like it gets you off the hook somehow.

Right.

The next morning they take her body to saddle Worth Moore and is buried in a shallow grave.

Okay, so towards the end.

We're getting towards the end.

On the evening of October sixth, nineteen sixty five, they go to the Manchester Central Railway station and Ian picks up a guy, a seventeen year old guy named Edward Evans, and he introduces Mayra as his sister.

They drive back home they're drinking a bottle of wine together and Ian sends Meyra to fetch her brother in law.

Fetch her brother in law.

When they get back to the house, Mayra tells her brother in law that, uh, to wait outside.

It's really weird.

So basically, the brother in law, who is Mayra's sister's husband, is kind of a small time crook and the whole year Ian has kind of been cultivating this friendship and like grooming him to help him with his crimes.

And it's said that David Smith is in awe of Ian, and basically they kill this guy Ian Evans and try to get David Smith to go along with it, although he doesn't.

He says he'll come back the next day to help bury.

The body, and so sorry, he doesn't want to be there for the murder.

He's all good with the burial though.

Well, here's the thing, so he says he was in the kitchen and didn't know what happened.

But what comes out of this either way is that when David Smith gets home to my riss sister, he tells her what happens and they're both like, let's go call the fucking cops.

Oh good, Yeah, like, can you imagine calling cops on your sister like that?

But also, was she always like this beast sister?

I'm sure, right, yeah, because yeah, she must have been a sociopath to me, just serial killing children.

And she probably she probably suspects something this happened between them.

They're being weird and secretive, they're creepy Nazis.

Nazis a Nazi behavior.

Yeah, it's never a good never a good sign.

Never.

So they call the police from a nearby phone box.

Uh, I'm not gonna change him.

I'm just gonna keep saying that.

But they bring a screwdriver and a knife just in case Brady shows up.

Oh fuck you imagine the phone box, Yeah, to the phone box, creating that scared that, like the Boogeyman's just going to be like, hey, yes, yes, I mean once you realize that that's what's happening, Oh totally so.

But they don't even know that he's like they thought maybe he just killed the stude that they were trying to fuck.

Like, they don't even know that he's a child killer.

Yeah, Jesus Christ.

Then so on the morning the next morning, Superintendent Bob Talbot of the Cheshire Police arrive at the back door.

He's wearing a bar of Baker's overalls to cover his uniform, so she'll open the door nice and he says he's a police officer.

Comes in and that Ian is hanging out in the living room.

He says he's investigating an act of violence involving guns, and let's see.

Looks around the house.

There's a room that's locked.

He goes into the room and when they come back, they say that they discovered a trust up body and that he was being arrested on suspicion of murder, and he's claiming it with self defense.

They had gotten in a fight.

Sorry, the trust up body is the seventeen year old.

Yeah, and he's saying, we got in a fight and got out of hand, so we had to keep the body in a room, right, and we were going to bury it.

Jesus, Yeah, I thought you were going to say they found a room full of gloves.

Right, hidden gloves that they had found just stacked to the ceiling.

Oh.

No.

So Myra's not arrested with Ian, but she's questioned and she refuses to make any statement.

She says it was an accident.

They didn't have any evidence that she's involved, so she goes home and then Ian's charged with an accessory.

No, the October eleventh, Myra's charged with an accessory to

No.

the murder of the seventeen year old Ian Words, and then they request a search of all Manchester's left luggage offices for any suitcases that belonged to Anne Brady, and on October fifteenth, they find a suitcase that belongs to him, and inside were nine pornographic photos taken of a young girl naked and was scarf tied around her mouth, and a thirteen minute tape recording of her screaming and pleading for help.

Oh and Anne Downey Leslie and Downey's mom listens to the fucking tape?

Can you fucking imagine that's John Walsh?

Actually right, that's fucked up.

What did he do?

He looked at photos of bodies?

No, he listened to an audio tape of a little kid getting murdered to find out if it was Adam Adam right, his son was Adam.

It wasn't.

So he just, yeah, that's the worst thing of all time.

I'm just nauseous thinking about that.

That's horrible.

So she says it's definitely her ten year old daughter.

And then the police are searching their house and find an old school book that has John Kilbride's name in it, the twelve year old who went missing.

They also find a large collection of photos in the house which seemed to be taken on Saddleworth More, so they fucking go there and start searching them more and on October sixteenth police find an armbone sticking out of the peat that the body that was the body of Leslie and Downey.

Oh you mean no, I'm not gon armbone seking Oopy, it's you're just it's just a big wide open field of gray, low grass and brambles, I think, right, and then you're just trying to walk it and then there's just an arm and then armbone.

Ooh.

Another site on the opposite side they found the badly decomposed body of John Kilbride, and then the search is called off in November because of the weather.

So Brady's charged with the murder of Evan Edwards, seventeen year old John Kilbride and Leslie and Downey and Myra Henley with the murder of Evan Edwards and Leslie and Downey.

They plead not guilty to the charges.

Then, on May sixth, deliberating for two hours, the jury finds Brady guilty of all three murders and Henley guilty of the murders of the two people.

The Brady sentenced to three life sentences and Henley was given two.

On February second, nineteen eighty seven, Mayra made a formal confession to the police, admitting her involvement in all five murders.

Wow.

On July first, nineteen eighty seven, Reid's body is discovered only one hundred yards from the place where Leslian Downey had been found.

Keith Bennett's body has still never been found, and his family continues to search the more.

On November fifteen, two thousand and two, at age sixty, Mayra died from bron bronchio pneumonia caused by heart disease.

And he's still not a fucking alive.

Whoa really almost positive?

Wow?

Oh sorry, that's crazy.

You know, people have been asking us to do these guys for a while.

Oh and I wouldn't have if I hadn't listened to this book, just because you know, Yeah, but I did it.

It's so good.

I mean, they're yeah, they're there's like one of the earliest team creeps.

I feel like back then it's so, you know, you have this small town and children and people are going missing, and you just don't put it together because that didn't happen back then, Whereas now it's like, he wouldn't be like a twelve year old's gone, they're a runaway, because that just was unthinkable.

And I think when you switch between boys and girls, it's also like kind of a way to throw off police.

Yes, at ages, it was like a twelve year old boy, you know, sixteen year old girl.

Like it was kind of all over the map in terms of probably how they were thinking totally.

And also just the fact that she that one girl was her little sister's friend is so fucking evil.

It's crazy.

It like, yeah, the trust aspect, and.

Then also the other way of Mara, you're so into your boyfriend that you're you are now like his right hand man.

Yeah, which she argues is like, no, he had brainwashed me and I was under his command and all this shit, and he groomed me to be his, which is like, maybe, yeah, but only to an extent.

I mean, yeah, that could be true, but I don't think that that's an excuse for what you did.

It's you know, here's the thing.

Whether it's true or not, you still did it totally.

That's the problem.

I mean, at any point you could have run away and called the police.

Yeah.

Because did she aside from brainwashing, did she claim he was abusive or anything.

It sounds like they were like, we're stoked Nazis were.

Of that of being abusive.

And I bet that if she hadn't died, she would have been let out of person at some point.

Yeah, because she was so old.

Yeah, because yeah, because yeah, well she would have That's like the.

Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamlta.

She got out of prison.

She's out of prison now.

I bet she would have gotten out.

Yeah, I bet she would have.

So creepy, crapy, so crazy.

Cool.

So that is the more murders.

And we're back.

Are there updates on this horrible story?

There are so Ian Brady died in a high security hospital in twenty seventeen at age seventy nine.

According to a new BBC documentary The Moore's Murders, A Search for Justice, He had written an autobiography while he was in prison.

There are about two hundred missing pages, which is like mind boggling, and it's believed that those pages contain his account of the nineteen sixty four murder and burial of twelve year old Keith Bennett.

Greater Manchester Police say they remain committed to finding answers for the Bennett family.

I mean, what a horrible spot to be in, Like, do you even want to hear that from him?

It's just imagine.

And after all those years and the other families that did basically get that, I guess we'll say, quote unquote closure but at least an answer.

Yeah, to still not have an answer is just a nightmare.

Definitely.

Okay, Well, let's get into Karen's story about the gorilla killer.

Mine is the opposite of that.

Mine is I want a Georgia hardstock style and is hard stock, no stark, stark.

But my mouth did a weird thing at the end, which it does sometimes it's my new thing.

Sorry, I sound like I'm slurring, but I have been sober for quite some time, or at least I should specify don't drink.

There's so many people who are like, your sobriety means a lot to me.

And then I'm like, well, I stop drinking in nineteen ninety seven.

But I am definitely on meth.

Keep it in mind, everybody.

Uh, Okay.

So when we were in Portland, I did the thing that you were just talking about where we had three shows, we had three murders.

I only learned that we had a third show, or at least was reminded we had a third show.

Like the night the day of the first day I was there, Steven texted me and he was like, I said, so I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this, and he goes, okay, and what's your third one?

I was and I just wrote back, no, no, no.

On Saturday, no Friday, okay, yeah, oh my god, or maybe it was Thursday.

It was late for me because I was like, are you kidding me?

I have to do a whole nother one.

Yeah.

No, that's like, man, we need you and I I'm not saying you.

I'm not saying we need to get our shits together with traveling because there has not been a fucking day when we're traveling that I am not scrambling.

Yes, well about us.

We just I think you and I both just work better when we're under pressure.

That's usual most writers are like that.

And are and are so scared of failing and dread work so much you put it off to the last minute.

Well, because, and I will say this for myself, typing is not writing.

So when you write it for things like this, it is reading and kind of processing and figuring out a way you're going to tell a story.

Right.

The problem is that if you do it last minute, you're then you're just read.

You're reading something you cut and pace, as opposed to telling a good story.

And there's no personality in it exactly.

And so but I'm I'm like, fun, sorry, whatever, No, No, When I get it, when I sit down and start working on the story that I like, I'm so happy and I'm so stoked and it's like my favorite part of the week.

Yes, but getting to that spot is so fucking hard for me.

It's the bridge, it's the bridge to doing it.

That's the hardest.

Yeah.

That's when I start doing a lot of laundry.

I start wiping down surfaces, but that already clean, I have.

I don't do anything.

Oh, sit there frozen.

Yes, okay, So here's the thing.

In my panic of going third murder, I start working on this fucking guy.

He killed so many people across the nation that he didn't feel like a Portland killer to me.

Ok, And I was very angry at him.

But luckily he's still there for me, because the second we bet we get back, we have to record again.

And so I was like, well, I'm gonna go back.

He supports you.

That's right, Earl Leonard Nelson, the gorilla Killer.

Have you ever heard?

No, all right, does he kill gorilla?

No?

That's the dumbest show worth No, no, no, it's the dumbest name.

What a bummer?

Was he like?

Oh man, oh that's so insulting.

Well, I've read so this is one of those ones I should say.

Murder Pedia is one of my favorite websites.

It is an aggregate site where they just they bring you all the articles and anything written about the killer you've looked up.

It's not like Wikipedia, where it's like here is this paragraph by paragraph of what happened.

It's like, here's an article from two thousand and six, here's one from nineteen sixty seven.

Yes, it's the best, but you also then in reading all the articles about the one person, really how this guy?

It was like he was called the gorilla killer because of his features.

He was called the gorilla killer because he used to walk on his hands.

He was called the gorilla killer because it took so much strength to kill these women and he rarely used a weapon.

He killed them with his hands.

Whatever.

Yeah, it's that kind of situation.

But still, all that being said, murder Pedia works like Wikipedia, So if you use it or like it, I recommend you give him five bucks because I want it to exist always, because it's such a great sight for research for this.

It makes my life so much easier.

Okay, Earl Nelson, the gorilla Killer, not like that.

When you think of crimes that the early at Tonia.

Said, he asked Karen, which I do all the time.

You think the Lindberg baby kidnapping and murder, You think al Capone and eliot ness and the mafia crimes with prohibition oops, you think of Leopold and Loeb.

But meanwhile, while all of those things are happening, the first known American serial sex killer was on a rampage and nobody knows about it, or few people do.

The Bay area newspapers, because he started in the San Francisco Bay Area, called him the Dark Strangler because of his village.

Yeah, I know, right, because he could slip in and out.

Of these houses without being seen, sometimes in broad daylight.

And later on he was called the gorilla killer because he murdered women with his bare hands.

But it turns out he was just plain old, psychotic Earl Leonard Nelson.

So Earl Nelson's mother and father both died of syphilis before he reached the age of two.

Yeah, that's a rough start.

That's just your kickoff.

That's just downhill.

Yeah, that's like the bottom of the hill.

And then you keep on going.

Then you're down in the sewer area.

You're like, I'm at the bottom.

Both of my parents don't have noses.

So he sent to San Francisco to be raised by his maternal grandmother, who is a devout Pentecostal.

So he's got a fun and damaging childhood from a bible thumping old lady grandmother.

He was said that, it said he was already a quiet, morbid kid with a violent temper.

But then and he was expelled from school at age seven for being incorrigible.

Age seven's cute?

Corrigible?

What's his name again, earl?

Earl?

You're incorrigible?

Earl.

But he then, at age ten, is hit by a streetcar while riding his bicycle.

He has a head injury.

He's in a coma for six days, and when he wakes up.

His behavior becomes even more erratic.

He begins suffering from frequent headaches, memory loss, and eventually migraine.

Oh Jesus, so.

Now his moody and ang His moody angry periods are broken up by periods of mania, in which he takes to walking on his hands or lifting heavy chairs with his teeth.

Can you imagine we saw an eleven year old drifting the chair with his teeth at eleven.

Year old, where you're like, or oh, please put that down, earl, sit down, eat your dinner.

Each you a peanut butter, salwach.

You don't need to do that with the chair anymore.

This is also back when everything was made of solid wood.

It's a fucking oak chair.

He's picking it up with his teeth because he's like, I gotta get this out of it.

Oh God, Okay.

So it's quoted as saying this is my favorite quote on Murder Murder Repedia about him as a young man, Nelson was a day dreamer and a compulsive masturbader.

You have to pick one of those.

You can't be both.

I think they go together nicely because it's like whistling, handsome pocket.

What is the nightmare equivalent of a day dream A chronic masturbator?

We both had the answer.

Also, eighty percent of most serial killers are chronic masturbators as children.

That's one of those.

That's one of those.

Harold Scheckter lookout for this red flag things as a team.

He was a regular at the bars and brothels of the Barbary Coast, which was like the red light district of turn of the century San Francisco.

When he was eighteen, he broke into a cabin that he thought was abandoned, and he was arrested and spent two years in San Quentin for it.

Can you imagine being a teenager in San Quentin?

I bet it wasn't that cool.

Now, So he enlistened in the Navy.

He gets kicked out for behaving oddly and erratically.

He actually was, he was because it was World War One.

He enlisted in and got kicked out of the military four times, Holy shure.

And he just kept signing up under a different name and they would take him because it was like active duty.

They needed people, and here like, you're too crazy to go to the front line.

Yeah, we're we're getting our asses kicked over like over there, and you still can't come.

Yeah, and just be a bullet catcher.

So he this the last time he was in He was in the Navy, and he got kicked out because he refused to do anything.

But Lyon is caught and rant about the Great Beast of Revelation.

So he was just a crazy Bible thumper and he ends up.

Oh I said, he refused to do anything, but lion is caught and rant about the Great Beast of Revelation aka dreamsturbating.

Dream sturbating, that's what it is.

That's what it is.

So they commit him to NAP, a state hospital which was a very famous mental insane asylum in northern California.

It was there that it was discovered he had both gonerhea and suphali.

Oh my fucking god.

Yeah, dude, you I mean this isn't your brain has no chance at this point getting hit by a fucking car.

He probably got were born with syphilis.

Yeah, these things eat your brain.

His brain was just never not inflamed.

That's what those feel bad for this guy.

Ye how I probably find out what he does.

Yeah, you won't feel bad later, but you can definitely feel bad for ten year old y'all because he did not have it good.

He was There's a reason he was picking up chairs with his teeth.

So he managed to escape three times from Napa State Hospital before the staff just stopped trying to find him, which is the opposite of the three strikes law.

So he goes back.

After the third time he escapes, he goes back lives with his aunt again in San Francisco.

His aunt gets him a job as a janitor at Saint Mary's Hospital.

Saint Mary's Hospital is where my aunt Mary works.

Full circle Okay, so there at Saint Mary's Hospital, he meets and Mary's fifty eight year old spinster Mary Martin twenty four.

Ooh Mary, uh huh.

She's very shy and reclusive and he and obviously an old maid.

Here comes Earl.

Fifty eight year olds old.

She's an old name, well, I mean fifty eight.

Sorry, as a forty seven year old, I'm gonna say, yeah.

Maybe she's single as fun.

Maybe she's not an all name.

You know what?

I mean, I don't know.

Well.

Also, this was back when you were suposed to get married when you were fourteen, right, and have six kids by the time you were twenty, right, So she was way out of the window possibility, just kind of standing around Saint Mary's Hospital, staring out the window, pulling her sweater across.

Waiting for a twenty four year old psychopath to save her.

And then he shows.

Knagvs there He is Earl.

So he turns out she's very shy and reclusive.

He makes her life a living hell.

He is insanely jealous, He refuses to bathe.

He has terrible manners and an insatiable sex drive.

What was their date?

The're like dating life like.

The two of them think they whatever the equivalent of the Trials of Nuremberg.

They went to see that every fucking weekend, right right.

Also, Earl has terrible migraine attacks that sometimes leave him unable to walk, and one time, during one of those attacks, he falls from a ladder at work and.

Hits his head.

Fucking fuck, come on, double head trauma.

They don't cancel each other out.

Now, he's really nice, that's all that would be amazing.

He not got knocked back into.

Place and no, no, and he just started working for Habitat for Humanity.

Just he was like the chillest bro at the beach.

After that, that's the end of the story.

And then she went on to kill people.

Oh I just really quickly have to say, total sidebar, but talking about chillbros at the beach.

So Rizahmed of course is on my DVR recording, and so I finally brought myself to watch the episode of Girls he's in.

Did you watch it?

I love the show.

I'm caught up.

Okay, he's in two episodes.

Yes, yeah, him, Lena Dunham's character getting together.

I'm just all I have to say is I'm really mad.

What I'm really fucking for?

First of all, why like she is?

Because she wanted to make it because Lena Dunham wanted to fucking make out with real men.

Yeah, she made it happen.

She was just like a NonStop power eye contact.

And maybe less attracted to him because I don't like scrawnnie guys, huh and he's scrawny.

It made me love him ten times more than I already did because I was like, it was like as if that was not a TV show, and I was like, why would you pick her?

Why didn't you pick me?

I wasn't at that beach or that beach party.

I didn't see you rapping.

I wasn't there to make it happen.

And if I were there, I would have never been anywhere near you, not have talked to you.

You wouldn't have really the like balls to be like that guy is gonna want to fuck me, I'm gonna go talk to him.

That's right, I wouldn't.

That's what I love.

I mean, fuck, I love that about her.

I do too.

I want a question about him wanting to fuck her, like I know, which was like, this is happening and making it happen.

This is the guy that's gonna fuck me now, which actually does happen often.

Yeah, but the thing, I agree with all of that, but I was just like, eh, he's too scromny.

Fuck you.

I'm now I'm mad at you and her, all right.

I should have never gone into that area sidebar.

But it hurt me deeply, and I was surprised because I was like, what, I don't give a shit, and I knew what the plot was.

It was just stupid stoner.

It was so great I know, but I love that anyway.

Okay, listen, here's what I'm telling you.

He fucking falls off a ladder.

Because of a migraine double down head trauma.

He leaves the hospital after two days because he won't stay there anymore, head wrapped in vantages.

So he's just running around on the street like a lunatic with a head wound like Frankenstein.

Yes, and he goes back home.

Now he's more paranoid and violent with his wife.

She's like, come fuck, h yeah, She's like, this was already weird.

I already doubted it, but I did it anyway.

Now you're now I can't talk to my own brother without you freaking out like she He would literally get jealous if she talked to her brother.

And she's sixties.

So one of the articles I read said that she had a nervous breakdown because of him.

But they're just one either way.

She divorces him within six months of them being married.

Wow, and oh boo.

Then I wrote, although I like that he was way into older ladies.

It gives me hope.

Oh my god, sometimes.

I have fun as I write these things.

All right, So they're.

Gonna get a sweet young thing like Chrisamed.

That's right, but not not in his twenties.

Doesn't picture up with his teeth.

No, I thought you ever trained?

Yeah, definitely a starner, Yes, somewhat chill with eyes that take up two thirds of his head.

Anyhow, In nineteen twenty one, he turns from glory to sex crimes.

He attempts to molest twelve year old Mary Nelson after seeing her playing in her basement and then deciding to pose as the gas man.

So he sees a little girl playing in a basement, knocks on the door, says he's from the gas company.

Her older brother, who's like in his early twenties, I think, lets him in.

He goes straight down to the basement and immediately attacks her.

She fights him off, screaming.

The brother hears, runs downstairs, goes to fight him.

He like scorms past.

The brother runs outside.

The brother follows him, runs after.

They fight in the street, and then Earle punches this kid in the head and gets away.

Oh, no head injury, new head injury.

Two hours later, Earl has picked up riding a trolley car.

He's just like around.

He's in the neighborhood.

I some sight, saying Yeah, he's like, where's that super crooked street I've heard so much about That night in jail he plucks out all of his eyebrows with his fingernails.

Yes, so he's already a creep.

Now he has no eyebrs.

Yeah, he's recommitted back to nap Estate Hospital and stays there for four years.

So then he's released.

And then I wrote what do you think happens next?

A He gets a job as an accountant, lives a productive life in molestation free light.

B.

He dreams to rates his way into an early grave or ce the killings begin.

Oh I want to go with c.

Yeah, the killings begin in nineteen twenty six.

So on February twentieth, sixty year old Clara Newman answers the front door to a man inquiring about her rooms to let sign in her front window.

The man tells her his name is Virgil Wilson.

He's carrying a Warren Bible and he's very polite.

Clara brings him up to the room she's renting, and there he turns from kindy, kindly Bible lover to pure animal and strangles her to death.

He rapes her dead body leaves her dress bunched up around her waist and leaves.

On his way out, Clara's nephew sees the man in the front hall.

He asks what the man is doing there, and the man says, tell your aunt, I want to rent the room.

I'll be back in an hour.

So the nephew goes back to his books and they don't discover the body until in the attic room until that night.

My two weeks later, he kills Laura Bale in San Jose in the exact same way.

She is a landlady that's renting out a room.

He comes holding a Bible yes and being like, I'm interested.

In your room.

This time, the difference is he uses a belt to strangle her to death and she's found in the rental room naked from the waist down.

So then three months pass and then Earl's cross country killing spree starts.

So he basically does the exact same thing over and over, like he'll kill a woman who's who's letting a room, and then he like either stays in the city and does it again, or he jumps on a train and does it in a different city.

So he does it everywhere.

So on June tenth, he kills Lily in Saint Mary, who is sixty three years old.

In San Francisco.

On June twenty fourth, he kills Anna Russell, who's fifty eight in Santa Barbara.

Then he goes back up to Oakland and he kills Mary Nesbit on August sixteenth.

On October nineteenth, nineteen twenty six, this is all nineteen twenty six, he kills Beatrice Withers in Portland.

She's only thirty five and her body was stuffed into a trunk.

Then the next day he kills Virginia Grant, who's fifty nine in Portland.

Her body is stuffed behind the furnace in her basement.

On October twenty first, the day after that in Portland, she kills Mabel Fluke, and she's hidden in the attic, in the crawl space in the attic.

What'd you say, Jesus?

Oh?

Oh, sorry, I thought you're asking a question.

On November fifteenth, he kills Blanche Meyers, who's forty eight years old in Oregon City.

November eighteenth, Wilhelmina Edmunds fifty six, back down in San Francisco, then back up in Seattle.

On November twenty fourth, he kills Flores.

Monks, and then the next day, oh.

No, sorry.

A month later he kills Elizabeth Beard in Council Bluffs, so he's clearly hopped a train.

Then he's in Kansas City.

On later in December, somewhere between December twenty third and twenty eighth, he kills Bonnie Pace in Kansas City.

Jesus fucking Christ yeap.

On December twenty eighth, he in Kansas City, he kills twenty eight year old Germania Harpin and her eight month old baby.

Uh huh.

He's on a serious fucking spree.

Then he goes quiet for months, and then on April twenty seventh of nineteen twenty seven, in Philadelphia, which is where he was from originally where his parents, the Cephalletic super Couple.

Are there.

From Philadelphia, he goes back there and kills Mary McConnell.

She's sixty years old.

Then he gets somehow to Buffalo and on May thirtieth, he kills Jenny Randolph, who's thirty five.

Then he goes to Detroit and on June first, nineteen twenty seven, he kills Minnie May and a lodger in that same house.

Missus Antwerp.

They don't know how old she is, but she sounds old to me.

And two days later in Chicago, he kills Mary Sistemassima sorry, who's twenty seven years old.

So by this time he knows the cops are after him.

They are he's I mean, he's just on like a killing spree.

And they know it's one dude doing all of this.

Yes, and the people, because these are a lot of these are boarding houses where there's other eyewitnesses in the border house, not just the lady who shows him the room.

Sure, So he crosses the border up into Winnipeg to get away from the cops, and he rents a room there.

On June eighth, what my birthday?

Oh I did that at the live shows too.

I can't help it.

It's how can you not he actually was born I completely relate because Earl was born on May twelfth and I was born on May.

Eleventh, so I was like, oh, day after But then yeah, it's him, all right.

So he crosses the border into Winnipeg, rents a room, and on June eighth, he strangles fourteen year old Lola Callan, who is selling paper flowers door to door to help her her very impoverished family.

He stuffs her body under the bed leaves that boarding house, and the next day he's wandering around to the same neighborhood in Winnipeg and he sees Emily Patterson, who's thirty five, cleaning her house, and he somehow gets himself inside her house.

He strangles, he strangles her to death, rapes and mutilates her dead body, and stuffs her under the bed and leaves without being seen.

So she's reported missing by her husband.

And that night, when her husband goes to go to sleep, he kneels down next to the bed to pray for strength and to pray to find his wife.

And when he goes to stand up, his leg catches the bedspread and he looks down and sees his wife's wool sweater sticking out from underneath the bed.

So he reaches underneath it and touches the dead body of his dead, mutilated wife.

Oh my god.

If I didn't say dead so many times, that would have been a really well told kind of build up.

Well, that's this podcast.

I mean, that is.

Not who we really are, deep down dead dead dead.

So by the time mister Patterson calls the police and says that he has found his wife.

The body of Lola Cowan has also been found.

And the same morning of Missus Patterson's murder, Earl left the house, went down, sold his clothes at a second hand store, took the money that he got for those clothes, and goes down to a barber to get a shave.

And when he sat in the chair, the barber had noticed that Earl had blood in his hair.

So when the story of these.

Murders comes out, the barber goes to the police and tells the story, gives the description, as does all of the people that live in the boarding house where Lola Cowan's body was found, because there's all kinds of people that saw that guy who stayed in that room.

So at this point between the barber's description the eyewitness accounts from the other boarding house, Earl Nelson's likeness is distributed across every province and border town in Canada.

And there's a fifteen hundred dollars reward posted for his capture.

And Earl is arrested hopping onto a train.

So here's the thing.

He is a master escape artist.

So once again he escapes from jail.

Yes, he's pick he can pick any lock.

So they had taken his shoes, socks, and belt when they put him into the jail cell.

So he escapes with none of those things, and that night he finds a barn.

He hides in the barn, and in this barn he finds an old, moth eaten sweater and a pair of ice skates.

So he pulls the blades off the ice skates and makes the ice skates into shoes.

Oh he does know shoes.

You love it?

I fucking love it?

So because he's crazy, So.

Then he goes the next morning, he leaves that barn and just goes fucking walking out, and he ends up bubbing a cigarette from a guy and chatting with him for a while because he doesn't think he can get caught because he's now been murdering women for a fucking year straight.

And he's standing around smoking and chatting in ice skate shoes, and the guy's like, what up crazy and calls the cop.

Yeah, can you just what if someone you knew just showed up in ice skate shoes to a.

Party also where it was like he pulls the blades out, so was he walking on?

Was still there?

Like that one rim down at the bottom.

And there were not There's no way there were his size.

Yeah, like, what are the chances of finding like a size ten fucking ice.

Skates shoes, perfect ice skate shoes, just.

To I just want to picture a friend clomping over.

He's just he's he's like walking down a gravel road in ice skates shoes.

Perfect.

Earl, you fucking idiot.

All right, become an accountant, you dumb dumb ass.

So so that this smoking guy, of course alerts the authorities.

Earl's recaptured, He's taken back into c he's tried, he's, after less than an hour of deliberation, convicted of Emily Patterson and Lola Cowan's murders, and he's sentenced to hang in Winnipeg on January thirteenth, nineteen twenty eight.

One report said he struggled for eleven minutes before he died with that hanging, but then another said he died instantaneously, and then made a very specific note of saying, how how why people would die take too long to die if the rope was too short.

I think they would do that a lot for people they wanted to suffer, really, because what you want to happen.

When you hang someone is for their neck to break.

Yeah, But if it's too short, right and they fall, their neck doesn't break.

They just slowly fucking choke today.

Yeah sounds horrifying.

Yeah, either way, or if it's too long, it's They're like, the snap doesn't happen.

And this guy, by the time they catch him and know who he is and what his history is, the Dark Strangler Gorilla Killer is they're like, I don't know, maybe make that thing seven feet long.

Do you know they did that in Nurrenberg when they killed a bunch of the x Nazis.

They made they gave him the long rope special gave some of them.

They purposely gave some, you know, fifteen minutes of choking to death.

Yeah.

I mean I watched Nurrenberg.

And on your your Vince's first day, her first day, I knew it.

I knew you too.

Were ruy no good.

Earl is suspected of more murders that didn't fit the Gorilla Killer Dark Strangler m O because of those two cooling off periods.

So after his first two murders, there were three months before that's free started, and they think that he killed other women just not either not old or not landladies or not strangled.

I'm drying to know what he looks like, what you personality was like.

They just said he was scary.

His family members were scared of him, and that that aunt that he would go back and live with.

They were like, they said, he was like a big kid, and he was a big violent kid, so he kind of couldn't be reasoned with, so they just did whatever he wanted and hoped he would leave Jesus, was what the ant said.

So the family was just totally scared of him.

So apparently he was just super violent and weird as fuck.

And there was actually a really good story of the.

Ant that time.

When he got out of jail, escaped from Napa State Mental Hospital, he showed up at her window one night as it was raining, and she said he turned she turned around and saw, she said, his eyes were black and he had a really weird hat on, and he was just staring through the window in the rain, and it scared the living shit out of her.

So she let him in, but she basically convinced him, you better leave because they're going to come here first to look for you, and she just got him to leave as soon as possible.

Can you imagine, like it scared her, and then even when she realized she knew it was, she was still scared of of her fucking mind.

It's like, oh, okay, it's just you.

Yeah, and it's like, oh fuck, it's you.

Yeah, oh yeah, okay.

Yeah.

So he's could possibly I think they said between twenty and twenty six confirmed victims, but they think there could be many more because he was also all across the nation and up into Canada.

And Harold Scheckter, who's wrote written so many great true crime books.

There's a book he wrote called Beastial that he where he talks about Earl Wow, Earl Leonard Nelson, the gorilla killer.

Amazing.

I've never fucking heard of that me either, And that's huge.

Yeah, the first sexual serial killer.

Yeah, I mean in America, right, Okay, is just because I thought the same thing where there was that guy Peter Curtin in Germany.

There's a couple other ones, but this guy was like the first one they think they know of in America.

That's a lot of fucking people, yeah, dude, a lot of old ladies just trying to rent a room.

Oh man.

Oh well, thank you, no, thank you, and we're back, Karen.

Any updates on this awful story, there are.

First of all, the update is skate shoes was from that guy?

Yeah, it's one of my favorite details of any case is escaping, being naked, running and then making skates out of like stealing ice skates from somewhere, making skate shoes.

Yeah, it's so funny.

I mean, it's just insane.

So in twenty twenty two, author Alvin Esau wrote a book about this case and the various political and professional issues that arose in the pre trial, the trial, and the post trial periods, and it spotlights the clash between Earl Nelson's court appointed defense attorney and psychiatrist in the role of Canada's so called official hangman.

It also highlights issues about the social construction of serial killers, you know, debates about capital punishment, psychopathy, the scope of the insanity defense, the effect of pre trial publicity and a trial being quote unquote public entertainment, the last which that sounds fascinating.

I mean, like what a book that digs into all those things that basically so many true crime podcasts talk about totally at the time Earl Leonard Nelson was considered the deadliest American serial killer.

He has since been dethroned by the horrifying Sam Little Sam Littell got covered in episode one sixty seven.

But yeah, I mean, that's such a huge case and so many insights for something that I haven't heard about it since then, since you covered it.

So let's head back in, guys and listen to our good things of the week.

Should we say a thing we like?

Yeah, let me think if I.

Have any Didn't you say you were watching a show you really like?

Yeah, but I can't find the name of it.

Was it fiction or non fiction?

It was nonfiction.

It was like different kind of deaths.

It's really cool, but I can't remember.

I'll find out for next week.

Okay, what about you?

You say something and I'll think of something.

Oh okay, fuck, well, I'll say this.

When we were in Portland, I got to hang out with my friend Stacy, who you met and who was the greatest.

She runs a place called Curious Comedy Theater in Portland.

If you live there, they have improv shows there, they have stand up shows there.

Lots of cool stand ups perform there.

I think Ron Lynch is going to be their next She books really awesome people and we just had a really great time hanging out and it made my visit in Portland.

It's just nice to have friends and that.

And Stacy and my friend Jason Lopez, who I have known since I was twenty.

We used to work at the Gap together.

We used to this in the Castro together.

He's one of my oldest friends and he was there both nights.

Actually I love that.

Well, I can't, Okay, Well, I guess mine is similar in that, like, this is the first time Vince came with me on a weekend tour and it was just like it just meant so much to me to have him there and have his support and just like hang out with him and fuck, man, I'm so I am just blown away by him and I just want him to come with us all the time, and he has to come with us.

It was so great and I just love having him around.

I do too my husband.

I probably should, but it was a really awesome experience having him there.

And you know how much fucking traveling anxiety I have and how much I hate leaving the house and how scared I get and how worried I get and having him there just kind of alleviated all of it, except missing the cats, but it alleviated all all of it, and it made it such a fun time for me, and instead of like an anxious, scary time.

Yeah, you were free to kind of just have your fun and do it instead of I think.

I mean, I'm it's not like you seemed insanely different than any other time, but but it is nice to know that then you.

Don't have all those worries on your shoulders.

You can just kind of have fun.

Yeah, it was nice.

I mean, yes, I'm codependent, but so what it works for me.

Lots of people are also.

That's not codependent.

You just have a great husband that you're grateful for.

My therapist says, it's not codependency, it's interdependency, and if it works for you, it's fine.

I like interdependency nice.

I want to slice of inderdependency.

Interdependency is good.

Yeah, it's it's lovely.

And he's I mean, he's the best, he really is.

Yeah, he's I feel similar to him that you do.

I might as well tell you.

Now, you guys get along so well, it's cool to go in the other room and to get ready and hear you guys cracking up, but yes, I did it well.

Also, he just knows his shit too.

He's has so much experience in performing.

He has experience in merch sales, experience and everything.

He's smart.

Vince abral he's the He's got a podcast called We Watch Wrestling.

Yeah, I get into it.

If you WoT wrestling or want to yay yaykappy.

That's a good one.

Other people, We like people.

And thank you to everyone who came to those Portland shows.

We had such a great time.

We got so many good presents.

Thank you for coming to say hi after.

Could we say that someone made a catnip toys of fucking a bunch of serial killers.

Yes, and they're incredible one and put them on our Instagram And I'm not giving them of the cats because they're just so fucking cool.

Yeah, those are keepers can't get.

Yeah, they're incredible.

I think that it's not the same person.

But I also got a couple of dog toys that were they were slip little mini slippers, a Neon green mini slipper and a hot pink and George and Frank have already destroyed both of them.

They were very excited to get them.

Yeah, I love it.

I am okay, we're back.

It's so funny to hear me talk about how glad I was to have Vince there, but just like he never didn't come again to a live show.

Yeah, he got hired on as part of the staff, and he'll be with me this tour or two, not as staff, thank god, as my husband, which is just a much better place mentally for both of us to be.

So I'm just happy to have him back there hanging out with me, and yeah, I can't go without him.

He's my emotional support husband.

Yeah, it's nice.

I like the fact that you were trying to think of good things and you're like, I can't remember the name.

Of the show.

I like, it's just like we're really trying to turn the end of every episode so nobody feels bad, and it's just like, sometimes it's too hard to do.

What could it be?

It's nonfiction with different kinds of death.

What on earth could it be?

Literally all of the programming on the Eye D channel that's right, and everything anything on these days, every single channel.

So this episode was originally titled Trust Issues and Ice Skate Shoes.

It's a pretty good one.

But if we were naming it today, maybe we would call it.

Like Pitbull because we were going on to our internationally and we just got to announce that.

So and then we could do hard Stock of course, which is my last name.

If you're wrong in produce, you're slurring and non myth.

Or we could do yes, I'm codependent, which is the whole discussion about what you just discussed.

Your husband still am and I'm proud of it, proud of it.

Yeah, all right, Well, thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of rewind.

We're gonna let us back then say goodbye.

Oh you guys are the greatest.

Yes, thank you so much, Thank you so much for listening and everything.

And you're the best, and stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Bye.

Yeah,