Talk about murder.

Let's get it done.

Let's get into a murder.

Let's get our murder Georges taken care of.

Let's uh, let's vacuum the murder and take out the murder.

Let's vacuum up the hair follicles and the carpet fibers that will not be admissible in court, and then just throw them out, yeah, because they're discarbaged.

And then we'll overturn the conviction, will overturn the history.

Hi, this is my favorite murder.

That's Karen, and that's Georgian.

We're here to talk about crime and punishment and all the things that we like that a lot of people really don't.

I feel like so many people are emailing us and being like thank you that they do.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm always too embarrassed to talk about it with anyone.

Do you think even like even grammar school teachers and even cheerleaders have these feelings.

Yeah.

I think most women like to talk about murder.

Yeah.

Yeah, and some dudes.

Some dudes do.

Okay, Well, here's the thing I read recently.

Did you know there's they have like an age range that you'll most likely like this is when this is when your chances of getting murdered are the work at this age, like they have an exact age.

And this is from Paranoia magazine.

Now this is from fucking psychology today.

Okay, similar.

Okay, it was a relief because we're both older than this age.

Okay, good.

So the average aid of homicide victims into this last time I guess was two thousand and eight was thirty two point seven years old.

Boo.

And then the average age of murderers in two thousand and eight was twenty eight point eight.

WHOA interesting, Yeah, like that's very young seems to me.

To get murdered or to murder, uh, to be a murderer, that seems young.

I you know, I would have guessed old, younger personally.

You would have guessed younger for the money because.

You have less control over your impulses and that sort of thing.

But by twenty eight you're like, I'm gonna be a murderer definitely or no, I.

Want you know what it is too.

I think when I think of stuff like this, I'm thinking of this specific kind of money that I'm interested in, where obviously this is this is gang tarmafia all you know, tar puls all that stuff, spousal abuse, the crimes of passion, times of partion, crimes of portune.

What about you know what, I'm really afraid of getting shot out on the freeway.

Ooh yeah, what about someone throwing a brick over and off and overpass onto your windshield?

Oh?

Do that?

No, don't do that.

Does that happen to people?

M hm?

There was, Like sometimes there's there's like I was gonna say spates of that, but I'm not sure if that's.

The right word.

That's terrifying.

Little that starts happening in certain parts of that's a that's a very Los Angeles thing.

No sure, I know.

I gotta go, Kay bye, I gotta go.

I gotta go.

And to be murdered thirty two that sounds right because you're like, you're out of your twenties.

You kind of like you relax into adulthood.

You think you got it together.

You no longer carry your keys between your fingers at night.

You're kind of like, look, I lived in the city long enough.

You let your shoulders down a little bit, you relax.

Yeah, the fun kind of murders that we like, that's like your a college co ed.

Yeah, not fun.

And I don't like them.

Just to clear this up, whatever we have, we simply must demand understanding from our audience.

That's what we're going to have to stop explaining that A.

We don't want to be murdered by anyone we did.

You know why is because I made the fatal mistake of not only reading some of our iTunes reviews that were bad, which were there were very few, so I went straight to them and then telling you about them.

And like the funny one was one where I was like, these women have no respect.

They're laughing about child death or whatever.

And so I keep feeling like I have to clarify or be apologetic, call.

Her and be like, let me tell you about this.

I pictured it to be an old man with horn rim glasses and kind of half balding, kind of like an old Bob Odenkirk is the way I was picturing it, Just like a crooked finger shaking at the screen always you women, his grandson comes and boots it up for him every day.

Totally.

Yeah, we just said we can't.

We have to be talking to the people that understand us.

Yeah, they get us, they do, and they like it.

Like you're saying, they're excited.

I was going to ask you a question, and I forgot it.

I'm just going to keep telling each other that that people like murder.

They like it.

Yeah, why would they be listening to a podcast called My Favorite Murder?

Yeah?

People are much smarter than the media would have you believe.

It's true.

Do you want to go first?

You want to talk about your favorite murder?

Yeah?

Maybe after this one, we're going to start having categories each time.

Sure, like call a theme?

Yeah, theme totally.

So we're not right now.

So I was just like in the wind, twisting in the wind to grab one.

Why it's been harder?

Yeah?

So you, why don't you go first?

That's my point?

Oh okay, no wait, why don't I go first?

And then you?

Your yours is probably really well researched.

Goh, because I have a legal path.

Huh.

I just carry that around with me like a nerd.

There's nothing written like the same word written over and over and over again.

It just says murder Georgia, over and over on this whole time.

It was you that murdered me.

Oh my god.

Yeah, that's the great irony of life.

It's always what's right in front of you.

Nice to meet you, my m meet my murderer.

All right, Well mine is my favorite murder this week is one that I'm sure you know about, and it's a classic, and I feel like I just need to get out of the way because whenever and there's been recent news updates about it, and whenever I see it, whenever I watched a documentary about it, fucking in it.

Yeah, it's the murder of Martha Moxley.

Oh, Georgia, you know, I gotta tell you.

Yeah, just the name Martha Moxley, Moxley, the word Moxley.

It's the best name and it's the worst story.

It's just like and she's she's just a fucking kid.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So if those who don't know don't know anything, apparently Martha Moxley uh in nineteen seventy five, she was a fifteen year old girl living in Greenwich, Connecticut, which is a fucking tony town.

Loved the word tony.

Don't they have like their own gates and stuff.

It's like truly like crazy.

Risk yeah, and it's like you live on acres.

Yeah.

So, Martha Moxley's body was found beaten in her yard the night after Halloween.

It was she was beaten.

They found half of a golf club there, which is what had been used to beat her.

She's like a cute pretty This doesn't matter.

She could be ugly, it's still terrible.

She looks like a girl that's in a black and white picture in an eighties year book.

She's like that perfect girl, like.

The popular but like but she's also on student body.

Like she's popular and smart and she's not mean, you know, l freckles, genuine smile like.

She'd probably end up being like a like a lawyer for like the ocean, you know, like a lawyer defending.

Like actually getting something good done.

Osha, Is that a thing?

Osha?

Yes, But OSHA's is the work, the work environment, making make sure, making sure it's safe for people to work there.

She'd be she'd be a lawyer for them.

Okay, I like the ocean too.

It's kind of nice.

She just has dolphins all around her anyhow, she.

Totally has dolphins.

So the person who ended up ultimately getting arrested and put in jail for this murder, but not until two thousand and two was her neighbor who lived across the street, who was her age, named Michael Skeakell, who this is so unimportant and such a stupid fact of the whole thing.

But probably the reason why it's a famous murder is that the Michael Skegle's family was related to Senator Robert Kennedy's wife, Ethel Kennedy.

Skale Kennedy, who RFK has been in on this podcast is so my favorite murder in the past.

Anyways, So what recently happened is that Michael Skekell has been released from jail.

Oh I didn't know that they filed for a new trial because he was not adequately represented by his defense attorney, doubt it.

The habeas petition was granted, the judgment of conviction is set aside, and the matter is referred back so for retrial, meaning as far as I know, so he got out and as far as I know, it doesn't look like they're pursuing the case anymore because I guess, you know, they had very little.

It was all circumstantial evidence, not even that wasn't very strong, so surprising that he got convicted.

However, he admitted that that night, somewhere between ten and two in the morning or something like that, he was in a tree masturbating while looking in Martha Moxley's window.

Yes, that was the justification of why his semen would be on her body.

It was on her body.

Yeah, Okay, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life, right, I.

Mean, clearly he had pretty good lawyers the first time around.

It they're coming up with shit like that.

It's just I know, this is insane biased because I've seen this like so many versions of this story.

But it's but I've decided.

I've decided.

But I mean it's because of things like that.

Well, the problem with it is is that there's other strong suspects, you know, like the brother, the brother who was making out with her that evening, which is why maybe Michael got jealous and killed her or did she catch him?

Jernking off?

Like, how did she come out there?

Do you suppose I think she was out because it was Mischief Night?

Right?

Was it the night before Halloween or Halloween?

It was?

Uh yeah, sorry, I know you're so the night before Halloween.

Yeah, Mischief Night, which I didn't know was a thing.

I know, it's not a thing out here.

I think it's it might be for exclusively for rich white people.

In Greenwich, but.

It's also in Detroit, which is terrifying.

Oh is that?

Yeah, a slightly different tone of that night.

Every night is Mischief Knight in Detroit.

Yeah.

Yeah, I've never heard of Mischief Knight until I heard the story.

Yeah, me too.

So yeah, so like the most obvious answer is usually the correct answer.

Yeah, and him jerking off in a tree and not being the killer is not the obvious answer, that's right.

Well, and also, just then, why weren't there other people even, you know, like it just didn't seem like there was other people brought forward because this is one of not just a safetown or whatever, it's like an exclusive shut off city.

Yeah.

But here's the thing, is there the scay Gulls had a had a tutor.

Named John Let's see, we done something foreign Ken.

Ken Littleton.

Oh okay, So he was a tutor and they were like, this guy's sketchy, and so he was a suspect for a long time too.

Why was he sketchy?

Do you remember?

Because maybe he had a part on for Martha Moxley.

Oh okay, but he says he never even met her.

Okay, but then so recently, Kobe Bryant.

Here's another like relative, Kobe Bryant's cousin.

His name is Tony Bryant.

Okay, Like, why are there needs to be, you know, connections to family members that are famous.

I don't know.

Says that he knows who killed Martha Moxley.

He's from this town.

Oh, and he came out recently and said, I know who actually did it.

And it wasn't Michael Skeggle.

No, he says it was two of his friends who lived in.

Or I love the Bronx, I believe.

Yeah, two friends visiting him from the Bronx.

They went to Moxley's neighborhood the night of the murder, and this guy Bryant was with them.

The two friends reportedly picked up Skegele's golf clubs from Skeegele's yard, which is what she was murdered with on a whim, and told Bryant they wanted to attack a girl, quote caveman style, using the clubs.

Bryant says he left the neighborhood and learned about the murder later, and the friends told him they committed the crime, but he never said anything.

So now he's saying he's coming forward with the story.

If the story is true, I called bullshit on him leaving.

He was he was there.

People are going to tell you to your face they're going to kill a girl, and you're like, well, I've got to go.

AI, So what kind of person?

I mean?

Look whatever, there's all details.

You could run a million scenario.

I just don't think a teenager would be like would leave even if he was like, I don't want to murder anyone.

I just want to see what happens.

Or I don't believe these guys.

You know.

Well here The other thing I remember hearing is that the Scagell's golf clubs, the set of clubs were in their attic that the cops found them later with that one club missing.

So the idea that they were picking golf clubs out of a front yard seems a bit bullshitty.

Or did someone stash the golf clubs up there after they realized the murder weapon was a.

Golf club or that could be connected to them.

Did Michael Skagle do it put the golf clubs up there?

That the dad the mom.

Weren't the dad the mom gone, They were gone, like the dad mom almost didn't live there.

They were like teen boys that lived on their.

Own, rich white teen boys running a mac that lived on them her own.

That sounds now?

Am I wrong to assume that Kobe Bryant's cousin is black and that the kids coming in from whatever did you say, Brooklyn or the Bronx Bronx coming in from the Bronx were black.

That's an assumption we could make.

I would think that the Greenwich, Connecticut cops would see three black kids walking around on mischief night and at least ask a question totally, if not harassed the fuck out of them.

And then how did Michael Skaegle seem him a guest to go back and get on this poor girl, this poor girl in her poor every interview like her family is like die hard, like we never did anything else with our lives, but try to get justice.

Yeah, it's fucking heartbreaking for this poor family.

There's I remember I remember seeing this story way early in a It wasn't Forensic Files, but it was like one of those ones, and they interviewed the mom.

Oh she's she seemed like a thousand miles away.

I remember watching it and just going, oh, I never want to see any murder victims.

Mom speak again, because that's the most painful thing.

You know, what hurts me up.

The brothers, brothers of the murder victims always bought me out because they're like, I should have been there to help my little sister.

Yeah, oh terrible.

Well.

Also, I don't like the idea that so he has served.

Was it thirty years in prison or twenty?

No, he didn't get arrested until two thousand and two.

Oh, so this is crazy like white people justice, where it's a rich guy who basically kind of did a symbolic time and now they're faking out some black people to say, hey, maybe we did it, and then his thing goes away.

Probably he didn't.

Michael Skigle didn't get arrested until unconvicted for twenty seven years he was free.

So this whole thing happened.

I think it was two thousand and two.

So I remember having watched the whole story of the murder and then like that happened.

It was insane.

I never thought he would get anyone.

We get arrested for it, and now he's sucking out again.

So he's spent he's spent a couple of years.

I just think that the logic of.

Oh, wait, so two thousand he was arrested and then yeah, now he's out.

Yeah, the logic of.

Oh, just the logic of a very rich teen boy who gets spurned and maybe even shamed like his older brother who ruins his life and every other way, gets the girl that he likes him having this huge, crazy emotional reaction in the moment that he maybe hugely regrets even but that and maybe even a girl that he was obsessed with that sparking murderous, murderous rampage makes way more sense than just a teen going I'm gonna kill a girl tonight caveman style, Like, you have to be a very specific type of person to be able to do that in the first place.

It's not like going I'm gonna sniff glue.

And then there were two other kids at Michael Skeaikell's boarding school later who said he admitted to it.

Yeah, so these kids from the Bronx would have probably gone back and bragged about it, and there would have been more people saying that they did it, not Kobe Bryant's cousin.

Yeah, but I just hate that idea that I mean it.

Most black people have a hard time driving around Los Angeles, California.

You're going to roll up into Greenwich, Connecticut and just be like, let's see what we can do murder wise.

Like wander around with clubs.

I don't think so.

No, Yeah, you're right.

Also, if you live in the bronx, where you're getting the gas money, where you getting any of the money to get there?

Yeah, Like I don't know, it doesn't It just doesn't add up as quickly to me.

It's just a it's but what's the Yeah, I don't know, but who knows?

And I just don't understand why this guy, who has a family Kobe Bryant's cousin, would want to do that.

But there's a fucking narcissistic people who want attention all the time.

Or maybe he really believes it.

Maybe he believes it.

And maybe he doesn't he's remembering incorrectly.

He really believes that's what happened.

Here's what I will say.

I love the idea that we still get to talk about the Martha Moxley murderer, that there's something still happening with Yeah, that's fascinating to me.

No one's in prison for her murder still, Yeah, did I want Michael Skaigeld not to have done it, Like I want there to be a different answer, but I don't think there is.

I think that the thing it comes down to with me with a lot of these stories is my irritation over the fact that people accept kind of like like, if you're a white guy wearing a button down Oxford shirt, you can kind of do whatever the fuck you want and people will be like, oh no, that nice boy down the street.

Yeah, like you can you get to hide in plain sight with this camouflage and meanwhile, be whatever and people will not believe it.

Yeah, they'll immediately believe three black kids driving up from the Bronx to kill this one girl.

It's just such a bummer because I think what I don't want him to be guilty is because he is such a fucking loser and such a little twerp.

But he doesn't deserve.

I want it to be more sensational because she deserves to not have just been killed by this little little shit face.

Yeah, who is jealous of a thing that's a that's like a friend zone murder, that's what that.

Is, Or like you want to fuck my brother and not me, I'm.

Jealous yeah, yeah, which.

Is such an obvious boring I get.

This is why I like cold cases is because you can imagine that it's more complicated and mysterious and bigger within the answer, which is usually the answer is just some fucking dude didn't take.

His meds and went crazy.

Right, It's like, and this guy's a piece of shit.

And the murder victim was a good person who deserved And I always think, like, just kill yourself.

Don't kill someone else, Please just kill yourself.

I mean that was if they had any kind of nobility about them whatsoever.

Well, and also the other thing too is you can't just leave kids just because you're rich or just because you can like get a tutor, especially like teen boys are the ones that need to be like observed and ridden and like disciplined constantly.

They have to be there have to be boundaries.

No, And it's the seventies, so they were like on drugs and smoking pot and drinking all the time.

They did whatever they wanted.

I mean to me, in my mind, it's much more likely that a rich kid, a super rich teenage boy, would murder a girl.

Yeah, who has too much privilege and affluence and has always gotten away with whatever he wants.

We're Kennedy's.

Were the Kennedys of Greenwich, right, yeah, yeah, come on, oh man back.

It's your murder a Moxley.

Well, so I picked mine because we were talking about hitchhiking and laughing about how insanely dangerous and crazy hitch taking is.

And so I want to look up why we think that and know that and what the story, what the actual stories and murders are behind that.

And it turns out.

That there I looked up freeway killer because I remember hearing there was like the story of the one guy with the van on the freeway.

It turns out there were three.

Wow, and between like the mid seventies and nineteen eighty, there were three serial killers that dumped bodies on freeways in Los Angeles and southern California, working all at the same.

Time in this area, in this area.

And on top of that, in the same timeframe were the hillside stranglers.

Yeah, and so they weren't even counted in this because they'd dump bodies.

Yeah, but they'd dumb bodies in the hills.

So they would take women off the streets and then they would they it was where they were dumping in the hills, that's what they called them, hillside.

They thought it was one guy doing it, like as if they were walking up there, and then realized they were bringing by too there.

I just think it's crazy that when two people joined forces and are both in agreement that they want to do the same, Like, it's insane.

How do you find someone like that?

Okay, that's exactly right.

And here's why I love the story because the guy I focused on is William Bonnen.

He had four accomplices over his uh I believe it if it was just a year or it was like a year and a half where he was doing the most most of these killers killings, sorry, and he had four different people who helped him.

That's insane.

It's crazy.

Something was going on in the late seventies because that's also when Bundy, when John Wayne Gacy, like it was all around nineteen seventy eight.

There was this weird explosion of like maybe it was just that people learned about what it was and the story started coming out like Dahmer was later, right, Dahmer was later?

Yeah, yeah, I mean or because the term serial killer wasn't even coined intel, but it didn't mean that they weren't if they weren't doing that right, just don't think people understood.

And also, how do you introduce that concept to like without introducing huge mass panic.

So one of the guys, I'll just tell you the other ones.

First one was the scorecard Killer.

And this was a guy named Randy Craft.

So from nineteen seventy two to nineteen eighty three, he killed for sure sixteen boys, but they think fifty one and fifty one.

And there was also and he they call him scorecard Killer because he kept this really long list where he had code words for the people that he killed, so they were able to track.

That's why they know it's at least fifty one, because there would just be a word that would say like tank top or whatever that would somehow relate to the victim.

Oh my god, Yeah.

It's crazy.

And he was like the he looked like anyone in the store.

When you see pictures, he looks like a high school teacher.

Holy, he looks like he would have been on episode of Mary Tyler Moore.

He has like kind of a pointy nose and like he has kind of a jolly looking face.

I think he's a guy seventies.

A guy in the seventies just like, hey, come on, do you need a ride?

And he would pick up little kids.

He would pick up men of any kind, okay, and then he would brutally he would brutally rape them and then dump their bodies.

There was also Patrick Wayne Karney who worked from seventy five to seventy seven, who killed uh, definitely twenty eighth.

That's two years.

He killed twenty eight.

People, twenty eight and they think forty three.

They just can only pin twenty eight on him.

Yeah, Like there's no way he didn't start earlier and they just don't know yet.

Right exactly, and especially because at this time, imagine three of these people doing this at once, and this guy would pick up hitchhikers, shoot them in the head, then do stuff to their bodies, and then wrap them in trash back.

And keep their heads.

Is that's him?

No, Uh, well not that I know of.

No, I don't think I think that's anyways, Yeah, this.

Is one of these people.

No, Well, anyway, I imagine like living right now and like like how you know summer of sam how like, yeah, there's a person killing people out there right now.

Like I just wouldn't leave the house anymore, I know.

And three three, and it's not three.

Of them that at any given time could be driving down any fucking street.

But the key in this, in all three of these, and the reason that they didn't go that they went on solved for so long, is because they were gay.

It was gay boys, and it was it was that situation of boy hitchhikers, usually young and for William Bonnan, his youngest was twelve, a little boy who was trying to get to Disneyland.

And but William Bonnen is like the worst, the worst of the worst.

We can just go through his super quick because it's just a humongous bummer.

He's kind of got shades of Charles Manson in that way where it was never okay for him from day one.

Yeah.

So he he was born to two alcoholic parents and the mom left him and his two brothers with her father, who molested her and who molested the boys.

Then he he ran away when he was nine and he got arrested for stealing license plates and he got sent to a boy's you know, like Juvie basically for boys, where he was again raped and molested.

And there's a super dark story.

This is if you don't like dark things, this will bum you out.

So spoiler alert, I'm sorry.

Spoil your life alert.

Let's just spoil.

Spoiler spoiler your entire life.

They told a story of the first time he was someone approached him in this in juvie to say that they were going to like fuck him essentially, and he asked the boy to tie his hands behind his back first because it made him feel safe.

That's how badly he was being molested by his grandfather.

So he was we can talk about this person and at least draw a strain of like with that why question that I always have with this, Like you cannot torture human beings?

Do you create a serial killer?

Yeah?

Just follow this guy's life.

Yeah, basically, And you know, neglect.

They were like the neighborhood people said that they look like they were starving all the time.

They were like, you know, they were completely neglected children who then of course became criminals because what else were they going to do.

Well, it's the thing I'm like, where do you go At what point do you switch from feeling sorry for this child to thinking that this man should be dead?

You know, Like, right, there's like a moment.

I guess it's when he kills the first person here to go.

Yeah, because there's a lot of people that get molested and fucked with as children who never do anything bad to other people totally, So it's there's definitely that element of responsibility.

But it's just like you just see that thing where like if that mother couldn't be responsible enough to go, I'm going to get you out of this cycle of abuse and not let what happened to me happened to you.

But how horrible that is.

So anyway, he of course then when he gets out of like that juvie, he starts molesting kids in the neighborhood.

I mean this is just like now with the thing that he does.

He gets arrested for it once, then he gets sent to I think, he goes to Vietnam, has a full tour in the Air Force.

He joins the Air Force, he came back, he was in Vietnam from sixteen nine to seventy one, came back and immediately started kidnapping and raping boys.

He did it to five boys.

Can you imagine the fucking fondling he did in Vietnam?

Yeah, Like that was like a free for all from him a bit, I'm sure.

Yeah, he could do anything he wanted.

So he comes back, he gets caught for kidnapping and raping five different boys.

They send him to a mental hospital.

So he goes from being in a mental hospital.

In the mental hospital, they say he's he can't be rehabilitated, so they send him to real jail.

But then he's.

Released in nineteen seventy four because there they decide he's no longer a danger to others.

You've got to be kidding, uh huh.

And so sixteen months later he's charged with the gunpoint rape of a fourteen year old hitchhiker and the attempted abduction of another teen So he's sentenced from one to fifteen years in jail.

From one to fifteen years, one to two to that.

Yeah, just you know, go think about what you did for a little while a year that you've been doing your entire life.

The fucking penal system.

Of all these stories of horrific things, I'm usually the most disturbed and disgusted by how a little time people get for heinous Yeah, the crimes.

Well, it's when when our rape and child Wileston going to start being really seen as like, these are people who should not be in should not be getting out in.

Six I don't know, but when that happens, they're going to stop putting a fucking statute of limitations on prosecuting people for rape.

Yeah, there's a statute of limitations sure for rape and kidnapping.

Yeah, how fucking how fucked up's that the cops can't find the dude who raped and kidnapped you for fifteen years?

Is that away?

He's free now?

Sure, do what you want, since boys will be boys.

Yeah.

So in nineteen seventy eight, Uh, he's released from jail and he moved to Downey and forgot.

I was just in down everything and I read that I had breakfast, and I read the criminal section of their.

Newspaper too, anything exciting happening.

There was a home invasion robbery here.

Oh okay, it's not too bad.

They later found out that he murdered a thirteen year old hitchhiker, but he was ultimately arrested for molesting a boy in Dana Point.

Should have gone back to prison because he was on parole at the time, but due to a clerical error, clerical clerical error, he.

Was released someone spelled his last name wrong exactly.

He walked right out of the jail and he got picked up by his main accomplice for all of these murders, a man named what is it something Butts, something something Butts.

It's a classic name.

Oh my god.

So anyway, and that's when he tells, he tells Butts, Now there's.

Not gonna be any more witnesses.

That's what you're creating when you keep letting these people, when you keep arresting them for one to fifteen years, is that they learn the lesson not to let anyone identify them right by it, so you should kill them.

Yeah.

So then he makes this what they ended up calling, uh, like the death machine or something.

And it's this green forda'conoline van that he's got chains, he's got like handcuffed, he's got all this stuff.

And they would pick up hitchhikers.

The Butts guy would be in the back and then they basically he'd like pull over and like attack and rape.

And he he was a big strangler.

He for most of his victims, he strangled them with a T shirt.

That's so that's how he killed most of them.

And uh uh Vernon Butts.

That was his first vernon and they also were lovers, uh, and they played Dungeons Dragons in the sewer system of Los Angeles.

That was just a small detail that I wrote on the side of here that I remembered, and I just am fascinated.

That's a lot.

That's him.

Just if we could kind of go into that for quite some time.

But I find that fascinating.

This isn't a gaming podcast, otherwise we would get we would get so into it.

Oh so basically it's just he Then it was basically a year long tear where they went and picked up you know, what they think is I think he got prosecuted.

What did I say, he got prosecuted for sixteen?

He was no, he got prosecuted for fourteen.

But they think he did forty four murders.

That is the most staggering number.

And the people were getting fucking kidnapped left and right.

Just boys disappearing everywhere.

And apparently there was a reporter at the Orange County Register, which is you know, as you know, Orange County is very Republican, very white, Republican kind of Christian area in southern California, and he found an envelope the Southern County Register with all the paper clippings of all these different individual stories of hitchhikers or bodies that were found murdered, and on the front of the envelope it said dead gay boys.

So he was like, why isn't anybody looking at this as like like some a trend at.

The very least.

But that was basically he he kind of wrote.

I think he wrote a book.

He wrote something about that.

I was reading.

Part of that was basically all about how the attitude was like, well, too bad for them because they signed up for that lifestyle the same as prostitutes, right, like, well they live what was it, a high risk estyle?

They chose to live a high risk lifestyle, which is so okay, you're right, so then any serial killer should get to do whatever you want.

Y.

Yeah, that's bananas.

It's super crazy, I am.

But I mean just the thought of knowing that there are those people out there, I mean there are now, but like in your working actively, in your in your.

In your hood, in your hood, well and also down here, I mean there was so much murder down here.

And also seventy eight was the same year as Jonestown, but there was something there was something in the air, you know what I think.

Of like murder in the eighties, seventies and eighties, and like how like people were so miners were unaccompanied, like just as a rule, like you could go and do your own thing.

We would.

We would leave and be gone all day and then come back when it's dark yep, Like picture a fucking a fucking arcade and like all the kids that were just hanging out in arcades, and all the perverts were probably working there.

Yes, intentionally working at it arcade because kids would be there.

Yeah, I mean it's a scarier, it's a scary thing to know, like to have the information, but it's such a better time for children health wise, I think in all those ways, because it's like, yeah, if you have kids, you probably should know where they are all the time, and you should probably make sure there's an adult with them that's responsible.

Definitely if we leave you with anything.

This week, yeah, you.

Know, we stayed at home alone every day.

We were latchkey kids.

We were too Me and my sister crazy, so crazy.

One day we went to get dropped off and we just at the last minute decided to get dropped off on my aunt's house.

Because she lived next door and our house was being robbed at the time.

Oh, my God, of that decision.

Are you serious?

I swear to God.

My uncle saw the guy walking out our front door with stuff under his arm as he drove by, and so he called the cops.

Holy the guy get caught.

No, holy shit, if you had fucking walked in on a burglar.

Yeah to uh.

At the time, I think we were like eight and ten Jesus walking in on a very large bearded man looting our house.

I definitely remember being offered rides as a kid by like strange men, being like no, I used.

To walk like literally a mile to school.

Yeah, by myself, by myself.

It's so stupid.

I used to ditch school and then they like go hang out and it's like, oh, you could have just been you dumb idiot.

I know.

We're so lucky to have survived.

You know what, God bless America.

You know this is a positive time.

Oh wait, no, now we get to read some of your hometown murders.

We've asked you guys to send us hometown murders because we love it and you've done it and we appreciate it.

We have a Facebook group my favorite murder, and we have a Gmail account my favorite Murder, so you can send us your hometown murder.

I'm gonna review on Karen and you read me one perfect Okay, want me to go first?

You want to go first?

Sure?

Okay?

This is by Mark Schrum.

I'm I'm Mark.

He's very nice, he said.

He said.

I hope I have the right email.

If not, I'm sorry for the frightening subject line because if it went to the wrong person.

It just is my favorite murder.

Open up your email and you're like, there's just someone describing a murder too.

How you would be shitting a brick?

Mark, He says.

When I was a freshman in high school, there was a high profile kidnapping case here in west of Wines, Iowa.

Maybe you heard of it.

It was the Johnny Gorsh Ghost Johnny Ghosh case.

Yes, it's pretty well known nationwide and drug on for years and isn't one hundred percent solved of this day.

This happened in nineteen eighty two.

He was a paper boy and was kidnapped.

Well doing his paper route one morning.

Didn't they just find his bike and that's it?

Yeah?

I think so.

There was another boy, Eugene Martin, that was taken in nineteen eighty four.

Same story.

He was a paper My story comes in nineteen eighty three when I was a paper boy.

Mark.

Your mom should not have let you be a paper boy.

Mark.

My brother and I were delivering papers one morning and it was still dark.

We were on a street that the houses were pretty far apart and set back from the road, so we weren't right on the street.

I looked up the street and saw a blue panel van coming down the street extremely slow with no headlights on.

Uh oh.

As we walked, it kept following my brother from the street.

Wait.

My brother and I had walkie talkies awesome nice, so we were communicating about it, and we decided to run and head behind the houses to get away from the street and meet up a few houses down.

As we took off running, the van took off down the street and finally, after a few houses, turned the lights on and sped away.

Was I going to me next?

I guess I'll never know.

About five minutes later we saw a manager told him and he called it into the paper dispatch.

I don't know, weren't from there, but I was never questioned by the police, and one year later Eugene was gone, Oh haunts me to this day, even though you are only one of the handful of people I've ever spoken to about it since it happened.

Wow, Mark, uh, he said, keep up the good work and don't ever remove the humor from the podcast.

That is just depressing.

We did it a little bit on this one.

He said.

It isn't being disrespectful and you aren't going to hell.

We're just cope.

We are just coping with a fucked up world and the best way we know how.

And he wrote, fing you, thank you, Mark, thank you, Mark.

That's so true.

It's coping.

It's coping.

It's coping.

But wow, ground zero at the Johnny Gosh because.

Of no way that wasn't involved.

He was in the middle between two boys, paper boys being kidnapped.

I'm sorry.

If you're driving a van, you should be pulled over more than people of color.

Vans are.

What good is happening in a van?

Especially like are a green van with their headlights off, slowly cruising down the street.

Please, you're the biggest child.

Loster my guy that I just did.

William Bonnan had a green van who murdered, so many people.

Like you're either a serial killer or your Scooby Doo team.

Yes, but Scooby Doo they were smart enough to put pink daisies on the side, which is really declared it was the mystery machine, but it actually means rape and murder murder.

Well.

Also, if anyone is interested in going deeper into the Johnny Gosh kidnapping, did you listen to that last podcast on the left about it's about the pedophile ring and the conspiracy theory about the the credit union that's in that town and the guy that runs it and these this governmental conspiracy.

The name is uh, what's the reporter's name.

Yes, it's the same name, that's right.

It's the same name as of Larry King.

Larry King, Larry King, that's right, Lawrence King.

Is his name, Lawrence King, Lawrence King?

Credit Union?

And what is it?

It's is it Iowa?

Or where?

Did where did Mark say he was?

Mark was from Des Moines?

Yeah, yeah, So it's all it's crazy connected and there's like a whole thing about about it being a sex child sex ring.

He started a youth group and like just be friend of these kids and these and the kids in the documentary that I saw were like being like, yeah, he made us go get kids for him.

Yeah, the kids talk about it.

I mean.

And also it's that thing of like people.

It's like, no one wants to believe something when happened in Des Moines as if like if it's a pedal fire ring, it would have to be in Manhattan or something.

Right, Oh, it's bad news.

And the people that you trust the most are the shadiest.

It's like your parents, so don't trust anyway.

I feel like the pillars of the community I mean are usually previous.

I mean, with great power comes great corruption.

No, no power corrupts.

That's the same.

Yeah.

Does The other one is.

Forget it?

Forget I said, there's a whole one out of all of those somewhere, there's.

A whole one something somewhere of ideas.

Yep, okay, here's mine.

Parents.

This is from Emily.

I'm assuming that you pronounce it may Sar and it's the Asheville hometown murder story.

George and Karen.

So I live in Asheville, North Carolina, and have since I was in kindergarten.

We lived in Anca Candler, though, which is an unincorporated community on the west side of the city.

When I was in elementary school, first or second grade, my sister had a friend.

I say friend, but they were probably somewhere between friends and acquaintances.

It was high school and it was the nineties.

There was probably gray area.

My sister was a sophomore, maybe fifteen, and so was this girl.

My sister was supposed to spend the night at this girl's house, but something came up and my sister going to go.

I was so young, though that I can't remember if it was on our side or her friends.

Looking back, probably the latter.

That night, the girl's mother's boyfriend murdered my sister's friend.

If I remember correctly, I think he wrapped her in trash bags tied weight store legs, dropped the body in the amazingly shallow lake, where she was discovered a day or two later.

I honestly I have no idea if there was a sexual element into this crime.

I'm inclined to say us only because statistically there usually is for both women in general and specifically young women.

But the Internet is no help with real details, probably because it was so long ago, or maybe because it was such a small town.

Either way, It's a thing that I think about occasionally when I think about my sister, because it's fucking terrifying.

He was sentenced to a little under seventeen years for murdering a team, you know, murdering.

Oh so if he's alive now, I have no idea he's probably out, probably again terrifying.

Emily, thank you.

That is unbelievable.

That's incredible that that happened in your life.

Oh my god.

Yeah, those near myths stories are like, those are the best.

Maybe that young and be like, oh this is things.

People do this to each other, right, Yeah, the innocence lost.

Yeah, it's so intense and also just like a friend dying in an in some other like a drunk driving actor in or like.

A typical way is awful.

Yeah, but this adds an element of like someone the hell this person?

Yeah, oh my lord, wow, seven hundred seventeen years he.

Got the same amount of time that she got to live on the planet.

That's fuck you, bullshit, fuck you judge.

Whoever decided that.

Well, I bet he that's all he could do.

I bet it was like it wasn't premeditated, And I bet this guy said it was like an accident, and so I just got rid of about like, right, this is such bullshit the rationale behind it.

Yeah, whoa, guys, this has been this episode has been a lot.

It's been kind of depressing.

It's been a lot to handle, a lot of murders, a lot of a lot of stuff.

I mean, it is what is what we're doing, It's what we signed up for.

This was Yeah, this was an intense This was a downer.

But I do like the idea for going forward thinking of themes that would help us kind of talk about more general concepts around, right.

I mean, that's the idea that you want to do.

Like definitely think So, okay, do you have any ideas for them too?

I'm thinking like child killers and people who killed children and you know what even like child children who kill that you know, shootings and bab it off.

People with glass eyes.

Yeah, this specific something really crazy.

Yeah, well, because I and I know we plug this all the time, but we love Last Podcasts on the Left.

It's one of my favorite podcasts.

But they just recently did one about Dean Coral, who is the candyman killer in Houston.

I think, and one of the things I find so fascinating in the way they do it is Marcus Parks, who is their researcher and provides most of like the context content or whatever.

Like they were talking about he got away with all these murders because there was no at the time, there was no police force.

Like there was one point something million people living there and there was like twenty two hundred policemen.

Like this impossible.

And there's just these things that happen in history and in time where like all of a sudden, like in nineteen seventy eight in Los Angeles, you did not want to be a teenage boy that looked slightly effeminate or hitchhiked.

Yeah, like that.

You your odds of living through that were very low.

And that's just like these weird sine waves of the times.

Yeah, things happening all at once.

It's just crazy.

Yeah, a culmination of circumstances.

Yeah, yeah, I'm into it, but.

In a negative way, but in a fascinated way.

And we're trying to cope, as Marcus said, I mean Mark, what is his name?

Your guys's name is Mark.

We're coping, We're trying to cope, trying to help what we're trying to talk about it in anxiety.

So email us your hometown murders or your favorite murder and go to the Facebook group and the Twitter my favor murder.

Oh yeah, and we and some people are just emailing suggestions.

There's lots of really good ones, so we'll get to those two and suggesting.

Someone suggested a really good documentary called The House of Suh, which I looked up and has like an eighty three percent ratings, so I'm definitely gonna watch that.

So yeah, Oh, there is someone on the Facebook group.

Oh I wish I had their name who's making a fucking Google doc of every suggestion we bring up for like a movie, a book, a documentary of this.

That's so awesome.

I know, that's very cool.

If you if you join the Facebook group, which is closed, you'll find it on there.

Cool.

Yeah.

Yeah, and we'll try to make them and then we'll try to convey yours that you tell us.

Yeah, awesome, Yes, I love it.

Rate, subscribe and review so we can get a lot of listeners, you guys.

Yeah, and thanks for listening.

Thank you for listening for us with us.

I appreciate it.

My