[SPEAKER_00]: I left the station in full to my brim with unexpected questions.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mary Goche set the scene, urging me to contemplate new ideas about being an artist.

[SPEAKER_00]: As Mary and I sat at the bar of that old Nashville music venue, my vision shifted.

[SPEAKER_00]: I went into this journey thinking mostly of my sense of self-doubt and my desire to overcome it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I hoped that my task of tracing the roots of Lucinda Williams would help change me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought I would find a new way to believe that I was good enough to be the artist I envisioned.

[SPEAKER_00]: On the other side of some line, I thought I could obtain a perfect sense of self-acceptance, a perfect type of belonging.

[SPEAKER_00]: But, my road trip and my conversation with Mary made me see that my concept of becoming this picture of an artist was distorted.

[SPEAKER_00]: As I drove through the streets of Nashville, away from the station in, I realized I needed [SPEAKER_00]: I needed to re-evaluate my set of expectations.

[SPEAKER_00]: I returned to my accommodations and went right to sleep.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I woke up the next day, I had a plan in mind.

[SPEAKER_00]: It just so happened that Lucinda Williams would be performing nearby.

[SPEAKER_00]: She was scheduled for a show at the legendary Rhymen Auditorium that evening.

[SPEAKER_00]: She would be singing her lilting vibrato up into the oak pews.

[SPEAKER_00]: She would be telling her stories to a crowd of 2,000 people.

[SPEAKER_00]: She would be standing in the sunbeams that filter through the tall, stained glass windows.

[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to be there.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, I wanted to see if Lucina Williams would sit down and talk with me.

[SPEAKER_00]: You are listening to Finding Lucinda from the Bluegrass situation.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host Ismail.

[SPEAKER_00]: You are listening to episode 10.

[SPEAKER_00]: Two notes before we continue.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not doing so already, I'd recommend you start this series from the beginning.

[SPEAKER_00]: Second, this project Finding Lucinda is also a documentary film, [SPEAKER_00]: We're also screening the film at live events across the country, starting in the fall of 2025.

[SPEAKER_00]: Shows are in San Francisco, Montana, Idaho, Mendocino, Chico, and Nashville, as well as more to be announced.

[SPEAKER_00]: Go to findinglucinda.com for details.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, back to our story.

[SPEAKER_00]: in Nashville.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was preparing for the chance to talk to Lucinda at her concert.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought about what we could discuss.

[SPEAKER_00]: Perhaps we could talk about herself doubt.

[SPEAKER_00]: I could ask, did you feel the way I feel when you were my age?

[SPEAKER_00]: I could ask, what did you do in order to become such a fantastic songwriter and lyricist?

[SPEAKER_00]: I could see if Lucinda had insights about how to move forward as an artist, even when you're so unsure of your worth in your future.

[SPEAKER_00]: I prepared my list, getting stirred up about this one chance I would have to go to the source of so many of my questions.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then I got bad news.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because of issues with COVID protocols, I would not be able to interview Lucinda.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was not going to happen that day.

[SPEAKER_00]: I felt heavy, disappointed, and even numb.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had pictured all of this time that maybe, just maybe I could conclude my road trip and find a resolution for my struggles with this last interview.

[SPEAKER_00]: I could wrap my journey in a bow.

[SPEAKER_00]: I could get some answers to questions all the new that I had twirling inside.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought I would finally get to the top of this ridge, connect with this golden source I'd been aiming towards for so long, but that wasn't my destiny in that moment.

[SPEAKER_00]: And spite of my disappointment, I still planned on going to the show.

[SPEAKER_00]: Slowly, I got all dressed up.

[SPEAKER_00]: I put wax in my short hair, I tied my red vintage scarf around my neck.

[SPEAKER_00]: I looked at myself in the mirror, fully and carefully, inspecting the wrinkles and the makeup I put on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then I hurried down stairs and hopped into my truck.

[SPEAKER_00]: As I drove the newly paved streets of Nashville to the show, I talked with the cinematographer from the documentary film, Rose, about how I was feeling.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm coming down to the rhyme in here in my truck right now because I've driven all the way from California, searching for the things that made Lucinda Lucinda over the years and it's been a lot of years of, [SPEAKER_00]: finding out about Lucinda's story and talking to people that know we're trying to figure her out from afar and it's been a mental journey of, you know, comparing myself to her, seeing how my life isn't like her or seeing how I can learn from her.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I've also changed a lot since I started this whole journey.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think when I started, I was a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, looking back, I, it's hard to even understand how I was so uncertain of my value as a person.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like you can look towards somebody who's your hero instead of looking to yourself because [SPEAKER_00]: It's scary sometimes to look at yourself, searching for a listen is really more about searching for myself.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's really the truth.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because every time we're looking towards a story or another person, we're just looking towards a way to make sense of our own lives.

[SPEAKER_00]: If we're going to be comparing ourselves, if we're going to be trying to improve ourselves, I mean, [SPEAKER_00]: always through our own prisms.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought I had to meet her was the conclusion of this and ask her the questions about herself to see if she and I were alike and if we could connect.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think what I wanted was to connect with her as a person, but I don't know if I need that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just celebrate Lucinda's work.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't need [SPEAKER_00]: Her, I don't need her to be my friend, I don't need her to be my mentor, I don't need her to be anything for me, I'd sure already is everything I need.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can sit down, back in California with a record player and just listen to our music and maybe that's enough.

[SPEAKER_00]: I perked the truck and walked towards the rhymen.

[SPEAKER_00]: I shuffled past new, spangled country bars and batched lures with pink cowboy hats, then I arrived.

[SPEAKER_00]: They are the rhymen's stood, as a calm totem of something old, something calming, something deep.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was made of earth, red brick with white stone trim, the mother church of country music.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had a decision to make, whether to watch the show or not.

[SPEAKER_00]: I stood alongside of the building, with Lucinda's name on the marquee.

[SPEAKER_00]: Concert goers made their way around me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like a heavy granite stone in the middle of a swift river as people flowed past like water towards the entrance.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought about what it meant to have come all this way.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I thought it was time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Time to move on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Perhaps my questions about self-doubt and my path as an artist could no longer be answered by finding Lucinda.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, I turned around.

[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't go into the show.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just walked back to my truck.

[SPEAKER_00]: I returned home to the ranch.

[SPEAKER_00]: I decided to fly back and ship the truck on a flatbed.

[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't up for another 2300 mile drive.

[SPEAKER_00]: Over several weeks, the grass is on snowmountain turned from green to yellow and then to gray.

[SPEAKER_00]: The summer fog rolled in at night as it always had before.

[SPEAKER_00]: As was customary each year, I gathered the sheep together for their vaccines.

[SPEAKER_00]: I checked their eyes for grass seeds.

[SPEAKER_00]: I cooed to the lambs that were quickly growing into rumbling mussely sheep, trying to keep them calm while I looked them over and trimmed their feet.

[SPEAKER_00]: As with every season, I tried to get a little bit better at my animal husbandry.

[SPEAKER_00]: The days passed and the dry, hot fall arrived.

[SPEAKER_00]: I decided to heed the words Mary Goche had spoken about so meaningfully in our interview.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I had a break from work, I sat down and opened my notebook.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then I smoothed the blank page flat with my hand and began writing another song.

[SPEAKER_00]: We finished the documentary film, Finding Lucinda.

[SPEAKER_00]: I tried to do my best to convey my story of traveling from Northern California to Austin, Houston, Jackson, and Nashville.

[SPEAKER_00]: I did my best to be honest about my struggles, even when it made me uncomfortable and scared.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then, I sent the finish film off, ready to share it with the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: But before I've released it to the public, I wanted to share it with a couple of people.

[SPEAKER_00]: Lucinda of course, as well as friends, festivals, those I had interviewed in music writers.

[SPEAKER_00]: Over the next few months, I even played the whole film in front of some small audiences.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was the most rewarding.

[SPEAKER_00]: Once a painter came up to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: After one of the screenings and told me about how she related to the struggle I had.

[SPEAKER_00]: How she went through similar mazes in her mind, wondering about her place in this world, and her path as an artist.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she mentioned how she taught students and saw them confronting similar issues in their creative journeys.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then one day, I got an unexpected phone call.

[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody told me that Lucinda had watched the film, and she liked it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was stunned.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had thought this whole story was done being told.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought I had missed my chance to speak with Lucinda, but maybe I was wrong.

[SPEAKER_00]: It seemed to me that if she liked our documentary, perhaps that meant I could still interview her.

[SPEAKER_00]: After all, the film wasn't out to the public yet.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I decided it would be great to find somebody who could facilitate the connection with her.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember there was one guy who was on my list of people to potentially interview, Ray Kennedy.

[SPEAKER_00]: He had been the engineer for car wheels on a gravel road, as well as subsequent Lucinda records.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was excited because I had recently made a connection with somebody who knew Ray.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had screened the documentary, and afterwards done a Q&A with a wonderful, accomplished singer songwriter, Shivan Mar Kennedy, Ray's partner, and she really enjoyed the film and had incredibly insightful questions to ask me about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: So there was a way I could connect with Shivan, then Ray, and then hopefully to Lucinda [SPEAKER_00]: and even more exciting, that I heard Lucinda was going to be recording with Ray and Chavon very soon in Nashville, so I made a decision to fly back to Tennessee and see if I could sit down with Lucinda Williams for an interview.

[SPEAKER_00]: I arrived in the Berryhill neighborhood of Nashville.

[SPEAKER_00]: There in the middle of acres of concrete parking lots, set a low key grade building.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was sender blocks at the bottom, and painted wood panels at the top.

[SPEAKER_00]: This building was next to warehouses and car repair shops.

[SPEAKER_00]: In the past, it had actually been a factory for distressing blue jeans.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had arrived at Ray Kennedy's iconic room and board studio.

[SPEAKER_00]: As I approached, I saw a glowing light in a high window, someone walking around the apartment portion.

[SPEAKER_00]: Took me a wild, fine front door, I circled, and then I knocked.

[SPEAKER_00]: There was Chavon with a kind smile.

[SPEAKER_00]: Nice to see you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're giving me a hug.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, shake it your hands.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, good story.

[SPEAKER_00]: What?

[SPEAKER_00]: Good.

[SPEAKER_00]: How are you doing?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Ray was upstairs mixing the song.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I took a minute to look around through and board.

[SPEAKER_00]: Going through the front door felt a bit like Alice in Wonderland, jumping down a whole finding another universe.

[SPEAKER_00]: This legendary space had a large open room, amps were stacked against the walls.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well worn but invaluable guitars hung up high all around.

[SPEAKER_00]: There was a little kitchenette and CDs from past projects on the countertops.

[SPEAKER_00]: I made my way up a flight of stairs to meet Ray for the very first time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Ray was working diligently.

[SPEAKER_00]: He had a gentle yet impassioned energy.

[SPEAKER_00]: He wore small glasses and seemed to be comfortable in his tight quarters of compressors and speakers and folk art.

[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to talk to Ray about what Lucinda was like, especially since he collaborated [SPEAKER_00]: From the 90s up until present day, I thought he might have some new insights about how she worked as a recording artist.

[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, I was also curious about his upcoming plans to record with Lucinda.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just came here to be a songwriter.

[SPEAKER_02]: I came to Nashville to be a songwriter in the 80s, and I didn't know anybody, but not a single person, you know, I was not gonna endorse the publishers and so forth, but I spent way more time in the studio making demos than I did right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I could write a song in 10, 20 minutes and spend all day working on a demo, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that's where I got really intrigued [SPEAKER_02]: engineering and learned about microphones and pre-amps and consoles, tape machines, all that stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I really, I just dove into that really, really deep.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so by the time I had done that for a few years, I was starting to produce records.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I've just like interested in that decision point for you, where you're sort of like, you've got these two things you're doing.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're doing your own music.

[SPEAKER_00]: and then you're producing engineering other people's work.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is there any like conflict you ever have in that decision?

[SPEAKER_02]: No, not at all.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's still the same creative process, whether you're doing your own music or someone else's.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're still using all the principles and the knowledge.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think I've enjoyed working with other people [SPEAKER_02]: there was more curiosity about figuring out who they were as an artist, as a singer, as a player, you know, what should this record sound like?

[SPEAKER_02]: When it was me, I had already [SPEAKER_02]: internalized all that.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I haven't had a lot of experience put a play in Barbie on my whole life and all that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I kind of knew who I was as an artist and I enjoyed working with other artists and, you know, and listening to songs.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, one of my favorite things, you know, I find the cherry picked the really good ones.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I mean, you were there [SPEAKER_00]: Right, I mean, she came and made a record with you.

[SPEAKER_00]: First, record she worked on was car wheels, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That was sort of like your introduction or how did you get it to know?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, actually, I was, I was working with Steve Earl on his first album, after he got out of jail.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I knew Steve a bit before that beat, but so we were doing this album called, I feel all right, and he wrote a duet.

[SPEAKER_02]: for him in Lucinda, and she came over to sing, and when she showed up, you know, I put her on the mic, and she sang, and she told me that it was the best her vocal that ever sounded.

[SPEAKER_02]: She really liked this kind of her vocal, and she liked the whole experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was kind of unplanned, it just kind of happened.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, she was intrigued by the way we worked.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I know who she is as a person and as a singer and as a songwriter, the whole art history is deep and broad, and you know, I know she's capable of.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she's when we're recording, it's live.

[SPEAKER_02]: In other words, [SPEAKER_02]: If it wasn't her best performance, it wasn't the band's best performance either.

[SPEAKER_02]: It all kind of goes together.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we just keep the tape rolling and recorded it again.

[SPEAKER_02]: And everybody knows that everybody feels it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I hope everybody does.

[SPEAKER_02]: Usually on the last court as it's fading out, I was asked people don't start talking because the music's still fading out.

[SPEAKER_02]: We got a lot of microphones in the room.

[SPEAKER_02]: or somebody will cough or whatever, you know, and I'll say this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've never had this conversation with very many other producers, or engineers, but what I try to do is why we're recording.

[SPEAKER_02]: I try to make it sound like a finished record, why we're recording.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it sounds so good.

[SPEAKER_02]: especially to the artists to the singer that their voice sounds so good it enhances their performance.

[SPEAKER_02]: It has to.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah so it's like when you're recording a song you're not looking for perfection you're looking for like the spirit of the song to be.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm looking for the feeling like you mentioned earlier you have to feel it you have to feel the emotion of the artist singing [SPEAKER_02]: together with a groove, and it's just a bunch of your candy, really, is what production is.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's sprinkled the right kind of ear candy on the song, so it makes it more fun to listen to.

[SPEAKER_02]: And part of it is the groove, you know, and part of it is, like, a counterpoint, like, you know, like the bass player may be playing against the melody.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's about tension and release for me, you know, it's like, [SPEAKER_02]: if you don't build tension then you don't have the release and that release happens at certain points in the song like when you go into the chorus or the bridge or something that's just a satisfying moment that you feel and the listener doesn't know what it is.

[SPEAKER_02]: They can't analyze it and figure it out usually.

[SPEAKER_02]: That feeling that I want them to have is the same feeling that I'm looking for while we're recording.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's the exact same thing, and if I don't feel it, and the musicians don't feel it, and the artist doesn't feel it, then we don't have it yet, you know?

[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes we have to take a break and go, you know, let's figure out a different approach to this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's switch it up a little bit, you know?

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go more acoustic.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go more electric, you know?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I guess I'm like curious, so like, [SPEAKER_00]: you're kind of talking about you're trying to get to the certain feeling that the song is trying to convey.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's it's deeper than the technical aspects.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like something more than that that you're kind of chasing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Are there things that you find getting the way of artists allowing them to express that and do that with you?

[SPEAKER_02]: They're on mind mainly, you know, maybe there's just not a good day for them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they're not like, [SPEAKER_02]: They're having trouble singing because they had something happen like the day before the night before or didn't get enough sleep or whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: People have days where they're on days where they're often and we just can't be on all the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you can't really, it's not something you can really prepare for and I think, but hopefully, [SPEAKER_02]: Once you've made a lot of records in tour and done it all, you kind of figure out what works for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really curious with Lucinda that sort of, I don't know, like, the emotional side of the process to get past all of the mind or minds that get in our way to make the great music that you guys made together.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is kind of a new insight from me about Lucinda, is this idea that she is really good at getting into that space that that real emotive space to make us on that connects with people.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know, like, I've known to all the backgrounds studying, I've done it for life, why she's so technically capable of writing such high quality of lyrics, writing such unique songs that are still based in, you know, traditional music.

[SPEAKER_00]: But this, like, insight that you're sharing about when she makes music, she doesn't [SPEAKER_00]: obsessive for those things.

[SPEAKER_00]: Those have been done.

[SPEAKER_00]: Those of the work's been done.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's there to make a recording that's real and genuine and engaging with something deeper.

[SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like I would say that her live performances are very similar to the way she performs in the studio that she just she's just naturally she's got so much experience on stage and recording that when she [SPEAKER_02]: when there's music playing and there's a song that she's one of her songs that she's written she knows how to crawl inside the lyrics and the melody and live inside that song as she's singing it that's why the her connection to the lyrics and the music is so strong and powerful because she's inside of it you know [SPEAKER_02]: There's not a lot of effort to it because she's living inside the song already.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's the way I look at it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Anyways, I feel like the best artists I've ever worked with figure out how to do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's really interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's sort of this.

[SPEAKER_00]: commitment to the song as it's highest and best self as it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what you're saying makes a lot of sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we listen to some recordings of Lucinda that the first recordings of her original songs.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, there's the first record we listened to, Ramblon of Corson.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, I was sharing a song with Buddy Miller and I think the striking thing about listening to her early on is how present she was with the music.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, when she played one of these, when you hear one of these recordings, the rhythm is there, the vocals are there.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not timid, it's not questioning, it's just her.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's very uniquely her.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that something I'm coming to understand is the power of what she does and what she did.

[SPEAKER_00]: And regardless of her decision, whether to do it or not, that was there.

[SPEAKER_00]: and that's something that maybe went deeper with her.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, maybe her sense that she had a presence with the music.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, for some people, it's like music is your one chance to be kind of emotional spiritual experience that makes you want to live, you know?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Being able to connect with your songs and perform them, it's kind of like you inhabit the song and it has a nice balance between you being able to express the song in a way that the listener will get it.

[SPEAKER_02]: No feel something from it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's not about how good of a singer you are a lot of times.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, certainly could mention a lot of my favorite artists that would not be considered like great singers, you know, but they're great, they're storytellers, you know, and they know how to express themselves in a song.

[SPEAKER_02]: in a unique way, that resonates with people.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's the beauty of music to me as it consolidates or lives into an experience that then like, if it's a good song, a listener feels the same way.

[SPEAKER_00]: And to me, a great song helps a listener feel a feeling that they've been avoiding.

[SPEAKER_00]: a feeling that they haven't been in touch with for a while.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's what good music does to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it helps me do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's like every one of these is doing this.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like therapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: You've been avoiding something in your head and the song makes you deal with it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think so.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a life in real life.

[UNKNOWN]: That's what music does to me.

[UNKNOWN]: It's like it always.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know when you're experiencing it.

[SPEAKER_00]: In this interview with Ray, I got a fascinating insight.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had never really been able to put words to the concept, but it seemed that Ray was describing Helusina had this presence.

[SPEAKER_00]: She had an ability to be in the very moment of recording that made her performances extremely compelling.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was reminded of the tape I had heard back in Jackson at Malacose Studios, the early recording that had been hidden away for decades.

[SPEAKER_00]: It showed that, from the very beginning, Lucinda had this presence with her music, so there was another piece of the puzzle of for brilliance, this gift of presence she had.

[SPEAKER_00]: insight into what made her such an impactful artist, and a lesson, for me to follow next time, I would be going into the studio.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, the pressures of being performer and people seeing you and, oh my gosh, people like me, oh my gosh, people hate me, like how to do that and not detach.

[SPEAKER_00]: from the music because there's so much else that wants to, you know?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, having your own criticism of yourself and analyzing your songs and your performance, so it kind of gets in the way you have to let go of everything to build a [SPEAKER_02]: go over that hurdle and get on the other side like you're performing and you're not distracted by thinking about evaluating what you're doing, just you just have to do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think the overtime, well this is true of myself because I've been doing music my whole life and there came a point where [SPEAKER_02]: across that line where I didn't, I didn't worry about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't, wasn't distracted by what people thought.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was just, you know, and how do you get there?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I guess it's experience, you know, doing it a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, there's so many psychological elements involved in performing, and there's fear of being on stage, almost everybody has a bit of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I mean, I just like be curious if I could have a chance to talk to Lucinda about as an artist how she figured out or maybe was able to embody the songs.

[SPEAKER_02]: With she is here and town, she's just got up to her four or five days ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: So she's in town because we're getting ready to come in this video and record this weekend.

[SPEAKER_00]: Really?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just starting to set up this session, you know, these are new songs.

[SPEAKER_02]: Some of them I haven't even heard yet.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're well, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's really exciting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's not dry yet.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, that's amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, looking forward to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've basically got the platform for her to stand there and sing on that she feels good about because it's just the way it sounds and the way it feels and you know, [SPEAKER_00]: and that we just do it and So it's just I mean but it's just in a few days that you're gonna be here pushing these levers up and down There we send it for something totally new and you don't like the levers.

[SPEAKER_02]: I like that No, I've never called them whewers These aren't faders anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: These are levers.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah [SPEAKER_02]: So I only ask you something, you mentioned a little while ago that you find that some songs or force people to deal with something that they've been avoiding.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have an example of that, or can you express any more about that topic?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a good question, I mean, I think there's always something I'm avoiding.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think in this moment right now, for me, it's sort of [SPEAKER_00]: I think there is a promise that if you get what you want, you won't have any more problems.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you get what you want, if you write songs and people say they love it, and you're good enough, and you're worthy of being loved and understood, I think realizing that that's wonderful, but [SPEAKER_00]: There's always something more, I would say realizing that external validation can't compensate for an internal piece.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's maybe the next thing I need to write about and think about is.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I've been working on this.

[SPEAKER_00]: the self-acceptance, and I think it can make the music better.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a fear like, well, if I accept myself and I stop torturing myself, I can't write any songs because I'm just going to be out to brunch all day long.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I know that that's true.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think human life always has fascinating turns and twists and deep caverns that we only can begin to understand.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I've had to accept and am learning to accept.

[SPEAKER_00]: not seeking a, you know, pin on a board, accepting more so life as it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had hoped that since Lucinda was coming into the room and board later that week, maybe I could meet her.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe Ray and Chavon could put in a good word.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then I could sit down with Lucinda to talk about my questions.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to Find New Lucinda.

[SPEAKER_00]: On our next episode, here what happened?

[SPEAKER_00]: Hope to see you then.

[SPEAKER_00]: One last thing before I go.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you guys liked the podcast or the film, it would mean so so much to me if you would leave a review.

[SPEAKER_00]: See you next time.